Jake Plummer / Kyle Orton comparison

[cmhargrove]

Just a little more fuel for the fire. BTW - I hope the fire ignites Plummer to play better, not just get bypassed. I believe Cutler is better, but I believe that when Jake plays with balls, he could win us a championship. That being said, here goes.

I keep thinking about veteran vs. rookie, offense manager vs. playmaker and that brought me to a similar team to our broncos - the 2005 Bears. Their defense was winning games, and the QB was doing just enough not to lose them. So I looked up Kyle Orton's numbers from last year.

15 starts, 1869 yards, 124.6 yds per game, 9 TD, 13 INT, 59.7 rating

Compare those to Plummers this year (extrapolating to a 15 game stretch)

2325 yards, 155 yds per game, 9 TD, 15 INT, 63.1 rating

I will listen to any arguments, but what does "playing like a veteran" mean?
Also, what happens when the Bears let the young hotshot (Grossman) take over? He sucked last night (like Cutler might occasionally) but that's when his "elite defense" takes over.

Talk amongst yourselves.....

[Drek]

You're comparing Plummer to a mid round rookie QB.

Thats a ****in' problem right there. I wish we were starting Kyle Orton instead, at least Orton has potential.

On that note, I personally would love to see us pick up Orton as Cutler's backup next season. He's got starting experience and already had something of a baptism by fire. I think he'd be a very solid backup and would let us keep the vertical aspects of our offense under Cutler in tact.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

On that note, I personally would love to see us pick up Orton as Cutler's backup next season. He's got starting experience and already had something of a baptism by fire. I think he'd be a very solid backup and would let us keep the vertical aspects of our offense under Cutler in tact.

Agree 100%. Off the top of my head I can't think of a better option IF Cutler beats out Plummer and Plummer is traded.

[epicSocialism4tw]

When starting a thread like this, it might be a good idea to ask yourself a couple of things.

1) Could it have just been included in another thread?

2) Does it bring a new subject to the main board?

The answers are:

1) yes

2) no

[Crushaholic]

When starting a thread like this, it might be a good idea to ask yourself a couple of things.

1) Could it have just been included in another thread?

2) Does it bring a new subject to the main board?

The answers are:

1) yes

2) no

Actually, it does bring a new wrinkle to the debate. Nobody has ever compared Plummer to Kyle Orton before...LOL

But, you're right about existing threads. We have way too many separate threads about Plummer...

[orange 4 life]

its a silly comparison.

its been a slow start, but there's more to it.

1) the playcalling has been VERY conservative, and considering the play of the defense and the situations we've been in its kinda understandable.

2) there are ALOT of new faces at skill positions and that takes time to gel.

3) extrapolating stats based on our 5 games is unfair, unless you actually believe we will continue to play that conservative and inconsistent.

4) you MUST look at history before you assume plummers SEASON will continue on this 5 game path. shanny is NUMBER ONE in most major offensive categories in the last decade, and plummer has shown the ability to lead mistake free football ('03 and '05) with solid numbers (3k plus yards) AND the ability to put up huge numbers ('04). based on the history, you must conclude that things will come together.

5) and most importantly, the offense HAS produced in the 4th quarter in crunchtime (something many people here said they couldnt do) against KC, NE, and baltimore.

bottom line is that shanahan just wants to win, and its clear he didnt feel the need to open things up sunday night.
we all wanted it to happen, but shanny was content with playing conservative and getting a win.
patience.

jake

[Taco John]

The playcalling has been conservative to protect the team from Plummer's interceptions. Plummer is not a victim of conservative playcalling. He's the reason for it, and a beneficiary.

[epicSocialism4tw]

The playcalling has been conservative to protect the team from Plummer's interceptions.

That's quite a strong, definitive declaration for someone so out of the loop.


Plummer is not a victim of conservative playcalling. He's the reason for it, and a beneficiary.

Of course he's the benificiary. It looks like the offense has LESS talent this season than it did last season.

[Rascal]

That's a bunch of crap.

The playcalling was more aggressive last year and Plummer didn't need to be saved from himself.

[bloodsunday]

its a silly comparison.
Not really, and you actually outline some of the reasons as to why its not silly below.


1) the playcalling has been VERY conservative, and considering the play of the defense and the situations we've been in its kinda understandable.

I happen to think this is crucial to the arguments about Jake. Please note before I say anything else, that I have supported Plummer thus far this season and in fact HAVE NOT called for Cutler as of yet.

There are two ways to look at the defense playing good thing: 1) you don't take chances on offense, afraid you can only make things worse OR 2) the defense is playing great so let's take some chances on offense and step on people's throats. This is an important distinction in my mind because of Shanny's psyche. There is no way he goes route #1 with the 97/98 teams. He had way too much confidence in those offenses to do that. If our defense was this good in 97/98, he would have catered to that "luxury" by going for the throat and putting teams away early (remember when our backups used to play entire quarters). Now, however he is letting teams stay in the games because he has no confidence in the offense and is "playing to the defense".

So the next question is, why the lack of confidence in the offense? Is it the OL? Is it the QB? Is it just poor timing and a new staff? I really don't know the answer. They were a better offense last year, but from where I stand they have more talent this year. It's probably some combination of things, but the Plummer fans have to acknowledge that he is at least part of the problem. I wonder if Shanny isn't using this opportunity to formulate a succession plan. Leinart is proving that an offense can function with a rookie QB, if he's as prepared to play as they seem to believe Cutler is.


4) you MUST look at history before you assume plummers SEASON will continue on this 5 game path. shanny is NUMBER ONE in most major offensive categories in the last decade, and plummer has shown the ability to lead mistake free football ('03 and '05) with solid numbers (3k plus yards) AND the ability to put up huge numbers ('04). based on the history, you must conclude that things will come together.

I was with you right up to the last statement. Why must I conclude that they can/will come together?! They never have in his career!!! That's the problem with Jake -- you can't have Jake slingin' the ball 25+ times a game without taking higher than normal risk of a turnover. (Higher than an average NFL QB). The Broncos have tried it both ways and apparently have discovered that Jake is at his best under these circumstances. That's the one thing we CAN conclude from his time in Denver.

If they don't get this thing figured out SOON, I will be calling for Jake's job. Cutler looks to be on track to be the starter next year, and if we are going to play offense with kid gloves, might as well use them on the real kid. If this is what it looks like when Jake still "gives us the best chance to win", then I don't have much hope for Cutler's career -- at least not in the near future. This is an atrocious display of offense.

[Kaylore]

its a silly comparison.

its been a slow start, but there's more to it.

1) the playcalling has been VERY conservative, and considering the play of the defense and the situations we've been in its kinda understandable.
I think it's because shanahan doesn't trust Plummer to throw. We're running the ball on third and long.
2) there are ALOT of new faces at skill positions and that takes time to gel.This might be partly true but he's not new to the offense and he still making bad throws off his back foot and throwing hoplessly behind his receivers.

3) extrapolating stats based on our 5 games is unfair, unless you actually believe we will continue to play that conservative and inconsistent.
Five games is a lot of football. Even if you don't extrapolate that's a very large sample size and he's playing like crap.
4) you MUST look at history before you assume plummers SEASON will continue on this 5 game path. shanny is NUMBER ONE in most major offensive categories in the last decade, and plummer has shown the ability to lead mistake free football ('03 and '05) with solid numbers (3k plus yards) AND the ability to put up huge numbers ('04). based on the history, you must conclude that things will come together.

This is the now league. By your argument benching Kurt Warner was a mistake because he's "shown the ability to play mistake free footaball in 2000, 2001, and 2002". League MVP!

The other argument I'm sick of hearing is the "He wins games." Well what was Plummer's win percentage in Arizona? And what was our win percentage before Plummer. Plummer wins because the rest of his team is good.

5) and most importantly, the offense HAS produced in the 4th quarter in crunchtime (something many people here said they couldnt do) against KC, NE, and baltimore.
This is the only argument of any worth. He's not blowing it for us late.

bottom line is that shanahan just wants to win, and its clear he didnt feel the need to open things up sunday night.
we all wanted it to happen, but shanny was content with playing conservative and getting a win.
patience.

jake

I agree that Shanahan doens't believe the keys to winning games is puting the game Jake's hands.

[Blueflame]

That's a bunch of crap.

The playcalling was more aggressive last year and Plummer didn't need to be saved from himself.

The playcalling this year might be more aggressive than it is if Plummer's performance level had not dropped down to a level he's only reached in one previous season ('99 Cardinals). For whatever reason, his level of play has "plummeted" and he's making way too many mistakes this year... that's why he's on a "leash"...

[bendog]

Just a little more fuel for the fire. BTW - I hope the fire ignites Plummer to play better, not just get bypassed. I believe Cutler is better, but I believe that when Jake plays with balls, he could win us a championship. That being said, here goes.

I keep thinking about veteran vs. rookie, offense manager vs. playmaker and that brought me to a similar team to our broncos - the 2005 Bears. Their defense was winning games, and the QB was doing just enough not to lose them. So I looked up Kyle Orton's numbers from last year.

15 starts, 1869 yards, 124.6 yds per game, 9 TD, 13 INT, 59.7 rating

Compare those to Plummers this year (extrapolating to a 15 game stretch)

2325 yards, 155 yds per game, 9 TD, 15 INT, 63.1 rating

I will listen to any arguments, but what does "playing like a veteran" mean?
Also, what happens when the Bears let the young hotshot (Grossman) take over? He sucked last night (like Cutler might occasionally) but that's when his "elite defense" takes over.

Talk amongst yourselves.....

defacating on a topic cannot add fuel to the fire.

[Northman]

Not really, and you actually outline some of the reasons as to why its not silly below.


I happen to think this is crucial to the arguments about Jake. Please note before I say anything else, that I have supported Plummer thus far this season and in fact HAVE NOT called for Cutler as of yet.

There are two ways to look at the defense playing good thing: 1) you don't take chances on offense, afraid you can only make things worse OR 2) the defense is playing great so let's take some chances on offense and step on people's throats. This is an important distinction in my mind because of Shanny's psyche. There is no way he goes route #1 with the 97/98 teams. He had way too much confidence in those offenses to do that. If our defense was this good in 97/98, he would have catered to that "luxury" by going for the throat and putting teams away early (remember when our backups used to play entire quarters). Now, however he is letting teams stay in the games because he has no confidence in the offense and is "playing to the defense".

So the next question is, why the lack of confidence in the offense? Is it the OL? Is it the QB? Is it just poor timing and a new staff? I really don't know the answer. They were a better offense last year, but from where I stand they have more talent this year. It's probably some combination of things, but the Plummer fans have to acknowledge that he is at least part of the problem. I wonder if Shanny isn't using this opportunity to formulate a succession plan. Leinart is proving that an offense can function with a rookie QB, if he's as prepared to play as they seem to believe Cutler is.


I was with you right up to the last statement. Why must I conclude that they can/will come together?! They never have in his career!!! That's the problem with Jake -- you can't have Jake slingin' the ball 25+ times a game without taking higher than normal risk of a turnover. (Higher than an average NFL QB). The Broncos have tried it both ways and apparently have discovered that Jake is at his best under these circumstances. That's the one thing we CAN conclude from his time in Denver.

If they don't get this thing figured out SOON, I will be calling for Jake's job. Cutler looks to be on track to be the starter next year, and if we are going to play offense with kid gloves, might as well use them on the real kid. If this is what it looks like when Jake still "gives us the best chance to win", then I don't have much hope for Cutler's career -- at least not in the near future. This is an atrocious display of offense.



Thanks for saving me all the typing. REP. ^5

[bendog]

Anibus, I'm curious as to why you'd agree they have more talent on offense this year?

[bloodsunday]

Anibus, I'm curious as to why you'd agree they have more talent on offense this year?

Javon Walker > Ashley Lelie

David Kircus/Brandon Marshall > Charley Adams

Tatum Bell = (at least) Mike Anderson

Scheffler = (at least) Putzier

On the whole it maybe a wash as they didn't change much, but they did upgrade the receiving corps and that is where most people thought they needed the biggest improvement.

[Northman]

Anibus, I'm curious as to why you'd agree they have more talent on offense this year?



For Starters, Javon has already paid dividends when Jake is " able " to get the ball to him. Wasnt our biggest gripe last year that Ashley couldnt find the endzone? Tatum has been running the ball very well and has shown a lot of improvement. Kircus has shown he can make plays if the ball is put in his hands as well. Rod is Rod. Do we have the Indy offense? No, but we didnt have it last year either. I mean, do you honestly believe we have lost talent here? Anderson? he was good but hardly seperated himself as the best back we had last year. As far as Putz is concerned, i like him and felt we should have kept him. But, that was not in the cards. In the offseason the goal was to upgrade the wideout position and thats what we did.

[jonny1]

If you are going to extrapolate numbers, then extrapolate this -

After 5 games - 4-1

After 15 games - 12-3

So at worst, they end up 12-4.

[Rascal]

The playcalling this year might be more aggressive than it is if Plummer's performance level had not dropped down to a level he's only reached in one previous season ('99 Cardinals). For whatever reason, his level of play has "plummeted" and he's making way too many mistakes this year... that's why he's on a "leash"...

Since when is he on a "leash"?

Jake had a horrible performance the first week last year and the play calling remained aggressive. Why not this year? This year it's been consistently conservative.

You play not to make mistakes, and mistakes will be made.

I don't know why this hasn't been discussed, but I think losing Kubiak has hurt the play calling more then people are willing to admit. And Dennison/Hermdinger combo is not on his level.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Javon Walker > Ashley Lelie
No doubt. Javon is an excellent player. Top 5 at his position. Lelie was a liability. Ashley Leliability.

You forgot to mention that Rod 2005 > Rod 2006. After watching tape from the Raiders game, I am convinced that Rod is not the same player.

David Kircus/Brandon Marshall > Charley Adams
David Kircus looks like he's going to be better than Adams was last season, but Marshall has not done anything yet. Literally nothing. Zero catches, zero yards.

Tatum Bell = (at least) Mike Anderson
Anderson was a smarter player, and was strong in several skills. Tatum has been pretty good so far, but I havent seen a great game from him yet. We still do not know if Tatum will be able to perform when the chips are down and the other team is stuffing your offense. The Steelers and Pats both made our run game relatively ineffective in the playoffs. I dont know if I believe that Tatum will be able to change that.

Scheffler = (at least) Putzier
This one isnt true at all. The last two seasons saw 36 catches for 572 yards and 37 catches for 481 yards from Putzier. Scheffler's on pace for 6.4 catches and 51.2 yards. That's not even close to an equivalent production level. There are tomes worth of players who were extraordinary talents and never were able to translate potential into success. Lets not jump the gun on Scheffler. The most significant problem on offense involves the drop in production at TE.

[BroncoMatt]

this whole Jake thing is really looking like a chicken or the egg situation

Is Jake struggling because of the playcalling?

Or is the playcalling very tight because Jake is struggling?

It seems to me that it is becoming a vicious circle, at some point Shanny needs to make a decision, either show Jake some faith and open up the playbook or if he feels that after 3 successful seasons that Jake suddenly has turned into and Rtard then he needs to yank him. But this martyball crap will not work forever and it will split the team. It's starting already.

[Northman]

this whole Jake thing is really looking like a chicken or the egg situation

Is Jake struggling because of the playcalling?

Or is the playcalling very tight because Jake is struggling?

It seems to me that it is becoming a vicious circle, at some point Shanny needs to make a decision, either show Jake some faith and open up the playbook or if he feels that after 3 successful seasons that Jake suddenly has turned into and Rtard then he needs to yank him. But this martyball crap will not work forever and it will split the team. It's starting already.


Honestly, i would rather have Shanny let Jake cut loose. If Jake is the Qb everyone thinks he is than we should be fine. But if Jake turns the ball over 4 times a game than i think we have our answer.

[cmhargrove]

If you are going to extrapolate numbers, then extrapolate this -

After 5 games - 4-1

After 15 games - 12-3

So at worst, they end up 12-4.


If that figure includes a first or second round loss in the playoffs against a "more balanced" team, you might just change your opinion.
We have made the playoffs the last three years, but the key is making progress. I am a Broncos fan, win or lose, but if we don't make it past the AFC championship game this year it will be hard to call it a success. It will be a step back, but maybe that is what the team needs to win the big one. One step back, retool at QB, then run at it again.

[cmhargrove]

One more thing. I love the Jake Plummmer with a beard, a middle finger, and a bootleg run. I don't like the one who is afraid to fail, or who has lost enough arm strength and ball control to pass like an NFL starter. I want hairy Jake back, or start Cutler - at least play with some balls!

[freak6]

If that figure includes a first or second round loss in the playoffs against a "more balanced" team, you might just change your opinion.


No doubt. We have got to win in January. 5 games in, no offense, it's more than a slump, it's the 2006 Broncos and I don't see much changing as long as #16 is our QB.

[Rascal]

The playcalling this year might be more aggressive than it is if Plummer's performance level had not dropped down to a level he's only reached in one previous season ('99 Cardinals). For whatever reason, his level of play has "plummeted" and he's making way too many mistakes this year... that's why he's on a "leash"...

What came first....the chicken or the egg.

Depends on your point of view.

[gadlaw]

The Orten/Plummer analogy this year is an apt one. Orten was asked to play mistake free football and to not lose games because the defense was so complete and crushing. Shannahan is having Plummer play close to the vest mistake free- take no chances football because the defense is so complete and so crushing at this time. Shannahan is playing the cards he has and doing a fine job of it. Plummer is doing what they are asking him to do and not complaining like so many other football players would do. It's a team sport, Plummer is being a team player and listening to all the stadium coaches who are saying he can't do this or that rather than getting all TO about it. Thanks for being class Plummer. As for Orten, he only led his team to the playoffs and his reward was being benched for the 'star' QB. The Bears lost with their 'better' quarterback just like they deserved.

[jonny1]

If that figure includes a first or second round loss in the playoffs against a "more balanced" team, you might just change your opinion.
We have made the playoffs the last three years, but the key is making progress. I am a Broncos fan, win or lose, but if we don't make it past the AFC championship game this year it will be hard to call it a success. It will be a step back, but maybe that is what the team needs to win the big one. One step back, retool at QB, then run at it again.

It is not my opinion, just a response to the 'extrapolation' idea. No one on here knows what Plummer is going to do next week, no less what the rest of the year will be like.

If they make it to the AFC Championship game and lose, that would still be a great season, just not the best.

Only one team is happy in February.

[cmhargrove]

It is not my opinion, just a response to the 'extrapolation' idea. No one on here knows what Plummer is going to do next week, no less what the rest of the year will be like.

If they make it to the AFC Championship game and lose, that would still be a great season, just not the best.

Only one team is happy in February.

My main point is that Plummer was doing much better last year to get us to the AFC championship. So I believe that if he does not pick it up, we won't make it as far as we did last year.
The other point is that the discussion about our "veteran" being the only one that can win, or "rookies can't win" seems absurd given recent facts about good teams. Good rookies have been winning with good teams (ie Rothliesburger), and bad rookies have been losing with bad teams (ie Alex Smith).
Two points here
1. If we believe in Jake, why are we playing him like a scared rookie?
2. Why couldn't Jay do just as well given recent history? If the argument is he doesn't know as many plays yet, why are we playing Plummer who can't execute as many plays as well as Cutler? Makes no sense.

[orange 4 life]

The playcalling has been conservative to protect the team from Plummer's interceptions. Plummer is not a victim of conservative playcalling. He's the reason for it, and a beneficiary.

yeah okay.

only problem with that genius theory is that in '03 and '05 plummer took care of the ball better than anyone else in the entire NFL.
he is #1 while protecting a lead.

in '04, when we were needing more points and being forced to pass more often, he threw 20 picks (11 tipped and 7 in two games where we trailed by more than 2 scores), but he ALSO put up prolific numbers with team records for 27 td's and 4100+ passing yards, and even in that season he was very good at protecting the ball with a lead.

kinda blows your theory out of the water.

now, our defense is playing at a level not seen before, so there just hasnt been a NEED to open things up, but history tells us that when that IS necessary, shanahan has plenty of confidence in plummer.

if he didnt, then all you "cutler homers" would get your wish and the kid would be starting now.

jake

[orange 4 life]

1. If we believe in Jake, why are we playing him like a scared rookie?


valid question, and the only real answer i can think of is that shanahan knows a few things.

1) we havent had any real NEED to open things up with the defense being as dominant as it has been.

2) plummer has been inconsistent in his throws thus far, and while he has been much better against NE, balt, and oak, we also havent needed alot of points in those games, so shanny might be giving him some time to work into the season. this theory makes the least sense since he's seen plummer perform at a high level for 3 years now, but again, we're not needing alot of points lately.

3) we have alot of new faces at skill positions, and it takes time for them to mix in and gel with the offense, and

4) shanahan knows the meat of our schedule is still ahead, so it makes sense to use the widest array of plays later in the year when the offense has had time to gel and against teams where we WILL need to score more points.

beyond this, i just dont know.
there ISNT any reason not to toss the rock to jake and just say "go get it done."
plummer has shown that he'll protect a lead better than anyone in football, and he's also shown the ability to put up huge numbers (all be it with more turnovers as expected) when thats whats needed.
history tells us that the offense will come together.
patience.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Here's ESPiN scout Jeremy Green on the Broncos' offensive problems:

"First and foremost, veteran WR Rod Smith (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3328), at age 36, has hit the wall. It is not that Plummer can't get him the ball; it is that Smith can't get open any more. Oakland's young corners pretty much smothered him Sunday night.

Second, the tight end has disappeared from the offense. Denver's West Coast offense relies on production from the tight end position. Stephen Alexander (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4307) and Tony Scheffler (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=7810) have combined for just seven receptions for 72 yards and no touchdowns. The tight end always has been a staple of this offense, and the lack of production to this point is alarming. So, while Plummer has not been great, there is plenty of blame to go around on the offensive side of the ball for Denver."

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=green_jeremy#20061016

[cmhargrove]

Here's ESPiN scout Jeremy Green on the Broncos' offensive problems:

"First and foremost, veteran WR Rod Smith (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3328), at age 36, has hit the wall. It is not that Plummer can't get him the ball; it is that Smith can't get open any more. Oakland's young corners pretty much smothered him Sunday night.

Second, the tight end has disappeared from the offense. Denver's West Coast offense relies on production from the tight end position. Stephen Alexander (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4307) and Tony Scheffler (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=7810) have combined for just seven receptions for 72 yards and no touchdowns. The tight end always has been a staple of this offense, and the lack of production to this point is alarming. So, while Plummer has not been great, there is plenty of blame to go around on the offensive side of the ball for Denver."

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=green_jeremy#20061016


I would go as far as to say Javon has been underutilized so far this year. He is obviously our #1 guy now. I know he dropped a sure TD in St. Louis, but the dude should have at least 1 TD in each game so far.
Look at Jake Delhome and Steve Smith - they aren't always the best passes, but just throw him the freakin' ball, he'll make something happen.

[Blueflame]

Since when is he on a "leash"?

Jake had a horrible performance the first week last year and the play calling remained aggressive. Why not this year? This year it's been consistently conservative.

You play not to make mistakes, and mistakes will be made.

I don't know why this hasn't been discussed, but I think losing Kubiak has hurt the play calling more then people are willing to admit. And Dennison/Hermdinger combo is not on his level.

Plummer's performance has been unimpressive from the first preseason game to start the '06 season. Whether it's the drafting of his eventual successor or the loss of Kubiak as OC, or some other factor we don't even know about (perhaps vision problems? ???) it's undeniable that the playcalling has gone ultra-ultra-ultra conservative. I don't claim to have all the answers, Rascal... but if the offense doesn't get the production back on track, we are eventually going to start losing games due to inability to put points up on the board. That is, unless we want to rely on the defense to keep carrying the team... and how long can we realistically hold them to such high expectations? They've been performing exceptionally well... but are some here going to rip Coyer and the "D" if they give up 13 or 14 points while our offense puts up its average 12?

[Blueflame]

What came first....the chicken or the egg.

Depends on your point of view.

Does it really matter which factor started the cause-and-effect? If Plummer struggles at all with a slightly reined-in offense, the coaches are probably going to respond with an even-more-conservative approach to the next game. As long as he's underachieving, the playbook isn't likely to be more opened-up because the risk appears too great. No, the leash will probably stay on and even be tightened.

[DBroncos4life]

The playcalling has been conservative to protect the team from Plummer's interceptions. Plummer is not a victim of conservative playcalling. He's the reason for it, and a beneficiary.

Then why is it different from last year? Only thing I can see is we took a huge hit in the OC part. Regardless if our D is as good as we all seem to think Plummers INTs shouldn't hurt us. If the Bears D can win after their starting QB had 6 turnovers then why shouldn't we be able to open our O up? I think there is more to this then what you guys think.

[DBroncos4life]

Here's ESPiN scout Jeremy Green on the Broncos' offensive problems:

"First and foremost, veteran WR Rod Smith (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3328), at age 36, has hit the wall. It is not that Plummer can't get him the ball; it is that Smith can't get open any more. Oakland's young corners pretty much smothered him Sunday night.

Second, the tight end has disappeared from the offense. Denver's West Coast offense relies on production from the tight end position. Stephen Alexander (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4307) and Tony Scheffler (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=7810) have combined for just seven receptions for 72 yards and no touchdowns. The tight end always has been a staple of this offense, and the lack of production to this point is alarming. So, while Plummer has not been great, there is plenty of blame to go around on the offensive side of the ball for Denver."

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=green_jeremy#20061016


Now there is something I can buy into.

[Northman]

Here's ESPiN scout Jeremy Green on the Broncos' offensive problems:

"First and foremost, veteran WR Rod Smith (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3328), at age 36, has hit the wall. It is not that Plummer can't get him the ball; it is that Smith can't get open any more. Oakland's young corners pretty much smothered him Sunday night.

Second, the tight end has disappeared from the offense. Denver's West Coast offense relies on production from the tight end position. Stephen Alexander (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4307) and Tony Scheffler (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=7810) have combined for just seven receptions for 72 yards and no touchdowns. The tight end always has been a staple of this offense, and the lack of production to this point is alarming. So, while Plummer has not been great, there is plenty of blame to go around on the offensive side of the ball for Denver."

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=green_jeremy#20061016



Well, if Rod has hit the wall there's no use for him to be on the field. Sorry. But there are faster wideouts on our bench who could help spread the field and take the pressure off Javon. I mean, if winning it all is what we are after you need to put the best players on the field no matter who they are.

[cmhargrove]

Well, if Rod has hit the wall there's no use for him to be on the field. Sorry. But there are faster wideouts on our bench who could help spread the field and take the pressure off Javon. I mean, if winning it all is what we are after you need to put the best players on the field no matter who they are.

Don't believe the "Rod hit the wall" BS. Rod has at least 2-3 years left of good productivity. If we don't throw it to anyone, no one will have good stats. Rod is still a stud. He's not fast but he can run great routes and he is dependable.

How did all of our receivers suddenly look inept??? Hmmmm... maybe it's not the receivers.... We may be onto something here.

[BroncoSoja]

That's quite a strong, definitive declaration for someone so out of the loop.


Out of what loop? Yours?

I guess you weren't watching the games we have been this year.


How did all of our receivers suddenly look inept??? Hmmmm... maybe it's not the receivers.... We may be onto something here.

Hmm yeah no kidding. But I wonder what it could be though?....hmmmm.... Oh wait, I got it.. Its Mike "I have 2 superbowl rings" Shanahan! Yeah he sucks, good thing we have Plummer here to bail him out.

[Blueflame]

Don't believe the "Rod hit the wall" BS. Rod has at least 2-3 years left of good productivity. If we don't throw it to anyone, no one will have good stats. Rod is still a stud. He's not fast but he can run great routes and he is dependable.

How did all of our receivers suddenly look inept??? Hmmmm... maybe it's not the receivers.... We may be onto something here.

I don't think Rod is the problem either... particularly with Javon as the other half of the "WR tandem". What I've seen is this... even the passes that have been caught have not been "on the money"; rather, they've been underthrown, overthrown, or high floating ducks. I don't think I've seen one yet this year that made me go, "wow... that's a great throw". Even with the long pass to Walker, the receiver had to wait... then come back, using his own body to screen the defender away from the football, to catch it. Had the ball been thrown crisply and on target, he could have caught it in stride, ahead of the defender, for 6. IMHO, the problem is execution at the QB position.... and it's perplexing to see that from a 10-year veteran who's never, ever played that poorly for this team in this offensive system. Something's amiss and it needs fixed or the struggling player needs to hold the clipboard.

[watermock]

It's silly to compare Plummer and Kyle Orton...it's apples and oranges. What I see is the level of college ball making the transition to the pro game less of a dramatic jump. Leinart, Young, and even Grabowski or whater his no name is had good games on crap teams. There are no guarantees, but why don't we see what we have then we will know if we should pay Jake one more year on the back end of his contract. It's not outrageous I guess, considering the bigger cap, but I think it has a pretty big back end, like 7 million or something.

[NOLA Bronco]

Geez - Plummer and Orton? How many games has Orton even played? How many wins does Plummer have?

With all the talk, you'd think the Broncos had a losing record, not a 4-1 record.

The offense is struggling, but all teams go through it. The play calling seems odd at times, but I don't think it has much to do with Plummer's abilities. Maybe its being far from Denver and not being exposed to it everyday, but I think "Mistake Jake" is one of the most overplayed storylines. He makes mistakes, but so does every QB!!! Orton, man this board can be entertaining sometimes.

[listopencil]

"Sometimes a lineman will make a mistake, sometimes a wide receiver will make a mistake, a quarterback will make a mistake," Shanahan said. "But as a group, to make an offense work, it's the whole group. And all the pressure will go to the quarterback because most people don't understand who broke down.

[Bronco Bob]

I don't think I've seen one yet this year that made me go, "wow... that's a great throw".

The two TD passes in the game against the Patriots made me go WOW!
What made them boring for you? What didn't you like about them?

[Blueflame]

The two TD passes in the game against the Patriots made me go WOW!
What made them boring for you? What didn't you like about them?

Walker scored on those passes, so obviously they were good plays. But the passes themselves, while they got the desired result, weren't ones I'd characterize as "great"...

The first touchdown pass looked like a high floater to me... Walker had his man beat and had to slow down to wait for the ball. The defender almost had time to adjust and get into position to make a play on the ball.

The second pass was into double coverage and Walker made a very good move to get away from the defense after the catch. Yeah, I was impressed. With Walker. You're right to point out plays in the Pats game, though... it was the only game this season in which Plummer looked even halfway decent.

Again, Plummer's passes have not been crisp, they have oftentimes been overthrown or underthrown (they don't reach the WR in stride), he lobs it into double coverage, and stares down his intended receiver. Oh... and he's also holding onto the ball too long... like last week against the Fade when pressure finally caused him to dump it off to Tatum, who then took a very hard hit.

[Popps]

Walker scored on those passes, so obviously they were good plays. But the passes themselves, while they got the desired result, weren't ones I'd characterize as "great"...

The first touchdown pass looked like a high floater to me... Walker had his man beat and had to slow down to wait for the ball.

Still pissing in those Wheaties, eh Flame?

The dude throws a 50 yard bomb (all air, no run after catch) for a TD, and you've got some way to whine about it?

What was it last week, Jake's key 3rd down conversion run wasn't good because he fumbled the ball out of bounds?

Good lord. It must be physically painful to hold a grudge that badly.

[Blueflame]

Still pissing in those Wheaties, eh Flame?

The dude throws a 50 yard bomb (all air, no run after catch) for a TD, and you've got some way to whine about it?

What was it last week, Jake's key 3rd down conversion run wasn't good because he fumbled the ball out of bounds?

Good lord. It must be physically painful to hold a grudge that badly.

If a question was asked, I'll answer it, Popps. Not doing so would be rather rude, no?

BS.... there were yards after the catch on both touchdowns against the Pats. More on the second than the first.

Why on earth would you think I'm holding any grudge against Plummer? Just because I've noted that his performance level has drastically diminished this season? Anyone with eyes can see that.

[watermock]

Still pissing in those Wheaties, eh Flame?

The dude throws a 50 yard bomb (all air, no run after catch) for a TD, and you've got some way to whine about it?

What was it last week, Jake's key 3rd down conversion run wasn't good because he fumbled the ball out of bounds?

Good lord. It must be physically painful to hold a grudge that badly.

Rirst, it was underthrown, second it wasn't a TD. It also was 54 yards. I haven't heard a single comment about his fumble, but nice of you to bring it up. Yeah, he fumbled. It hasn't been an issue of contention here at all. STFU.

Are you saying that the ball couldn't taken a bounce back into bounds there genius? Yeah he fumbled, pure and simple. Ball lands on it's tip, it bounces into play. Your point dimwit. YOU brought it up.

Jake's key 3rd down conversion run wasn't good because he fumbled the ball out of bounds?


Where do you go with that? I always am amused at people that answer their own questions.

This such classic moronic minimalization it's hillarious.

[Blueflame]

A few days ago, Popps took issue with the fact that I mentioned the fumble, Mock... but it was on a different thread. :) Presumably, there was only one direction that fumble could possibly have gone so it wasn't a lucky bounce at all, and I'm a hater for mentioning that there was any possibility at all that the play could have resulted in another turnover....

[Popps]

Rirst, it was underthrown, second it wasn't a TD. It also was 54 yards. I haven't heard a single comment about his fumble, but nice of you to bring it up. Yeah, he fumbled. It hasn't been an issue of contention here at all. STFU.

Are you saying that the ball couldn't taken a bounce back into bounds there genius? Yeah he fumbled, pure and simple. Ball lands on it's tip, it bounces into play. Your point dimwit. YOU brought it up.



Where do you go with that? I always am amused at people that answer their own questions.

This such classic moronic minimalization it's hillarious.

Sleep it off, dude.

[watermock]

Think it off. Your such an apologist it's incredible. You don't think Jake's fumble could of bounced back in play dimwit?

You said it was a TD moron. YOU take a nap.


The dude throws a 50 yard bomb (all air, no run after catch) for a TD,

Your a moron.

[Northman]

A few days ago, Popps took issue with the fact that I mentioned the fumble, Mock... but it was on a different thread. :) Presumably, there was only one direction that fumble could possibly have gone so it wasn't a lucky bounce at all, and I'm a hater for mentioning that there was any possibility at all that the play could have resulted in another turnover....



Certainly you jest? Ha!

[Kaylore]

I don't understand why people don't get that we're being hard on Jake because we know he can play better. If he had played like crap forever then no one would be upset but there's some problems of late it's a concern.

And yes Blue, I was upset that he fumbled that ball on his run and it's a fair concern. If you throw an interception that the defender drops, that doesn't mean that the throw was ok since it didn't result in a turnover. A fumble out of bounds was still a fumble.

[Blueflame]

I don't understand why people don't get that we're being hard on Jake because we know he can play better. If he had played like crap forever then no one would be upset but there's some problems of late it's a concern.

And yes Blue, I was upset that he fumbled that ball on his run and it's a fair concern. If you throw an interception that the defender drops, that doesn't mean that the throw was ok since it didn't result in a turnover. A fumble out of bounds was still a fumble.

Precisely, Kaylore... when any player's production level drops so drastically, the team, coaches, and fans all should have valid reasons for wanting to know why...

To the Plummer apologists on the board... there is one simple, easy way Plummer can stop virtually every word of criticism he's taking here on the Mane... Play better. I wasn't carping about him till he started sucking. Once he stops sucking, I'll stop complaining. ;)

[watermock]

So your going to tell me that the ball couldn't of landed on it's tip and bounced back into the field of play Popps?

Before I go sleep it off you need to wake up. Buy a vowel. Something. 4 out of 5 times that ball goes out of bounds. So what. That's a 20% chance it hits on it's tip and bounces back into the field of play. I think that's a reasonable possibility. I have seen it many times, so your standing on shakey ground. You don't even realize your an excuse machine. He fumbled. It's IN THE STAT LINE. Luckily, it rolled out of bounds. It doesn't change the facts.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

We all know Jake can play better, but this board has become bash Jake 24/7 and every thread is hijacked for that purpose. If it is going to continue to be that way, it might as well merge with fireshanahan.com

[watermock]

I haven't heard anyone calling for Shanahan's head whatsoever. Wrong head genius.

[cmhargrove]

Once again, I think the argument has hit a tangent. The original thread is not, can Plummer do better? It is, how is he playing over a multi-game stretch?

That is also tied into the next question. Who do you believe will be the better QB (best case scenario) Cutler or Plummer? If you believe Cutler's undeniable physical superiority (strength, passing accuracy, age) will make him the better QB, why not play him instead?

Obviously our very offensive minded head coach doesn't feel he can trust the play of our starting QB, so we are going with a "rookie" playbook. If that is the case, why couldn't the superior rookie handle the job, especially if there is a greater upside???

[Bronx33]

Once again, I think the argument has hit a tangent. The original thread is not, can Plummer do better? It is, how is he playing over a multi-game stretch?

That is also tied into the next question. Who do you believe will be the better QB (best case scenario) Cutler or Plummer? If you believe Cutler's undeniable physical superiority (strength, passing accuracy, age) will make him the better QB, why not play him instead?

Obviously our very offensive minded head coach doesn't feel he can trust the play of our starting QB, so we are going with a "rookie" playbook. If that is the case, why couldn't the superior rookie handle the job, especially if there is a greater upside???


Jake is concidered a seasoned rookie. LOL

[Blueflame]

We all know Jake can play better, but this board has become bash Jake 24/7 and every thread is hijacked for that purpose. If it is going to continue to be that way, it might as well merge with fireshanahan.com

The bashing is only because we're tied for last in the league in offensive production, and some of us find that unacceptable, Big Guy. And fair or not, when the QB appears to be the primary guy who is struggling, he's going to be the lightning rod for the dissatisfaction.

However.... comparing the Mane to fireshanahan.com is ludicrous. For one thing, the Mane was not: a) built for the sole purpose of criticizing a single person, b) dedicated to pointing out that person's flaws (real and imagined), or c) totally bereft of any new content when that person is currently enjoying success.

I guarantee you... if Plummer goes out in Cleveland and puts up similar numbers to his norms last year, this board will be nothing but "I told you so" threads from the Plummer apologists... and "Yay! The offense is back on track" threads from those who have voiced criticism.

[epicSocialism4tw]

We all know Jake can play better, but this board has become bash Jake 24/7 and every thread is hijacked for that purpose. If it is going to continue to be that way, it might as well merge with ireshanahan.com

That's the truth.

[cmhargrove]

I feel the need to restate that I support the Plummmer of the past who is not afraid to take some chances. I would rather see him throw 30 TD's and 20 picks this year than see him play scared with around 10 TD's.

If our defense is so good, why can't afford to take some offensive chances and still win????? I think taking some more shots at the endzone, or airing it out to Walker would put us where we need to be to beat the other "best" of the AFC.

The thread makes comparison to last year's Bears team that was afraid to have a rookie mess up their season - because they had no other choice! If we are treating Plummer like a scared rookie, we do have another choice and I can guarantee he won't be afraid. He may make some big mistakes, but isn't that what our "elite" defense is for?

[Bronx33]

I feel the need to restate that I support the Plummmer of the past who is not afraid to take some chances. I would rather see him throw 30 TD's and 20 picks this year than see him play scared with around 10 TD's.

If our defense is so good, why can't afford to take some offensive chances and still win????? I think taking some more shots at the endzone, or airing it out to Walker would put us where we need to be to beat the other "best" of the AFC.

The thread makes comparison to last year's Bears team that was afraid to have a rookie mess up their season - because they had no other choice! If we are treating Plummer like a scared rookie, we do have another choice and I can guarantee he won't be afraid. He may make some big mistakes, but isn't that what our "elite" defense is for?


Because of poor field position 9 times out of 10 which won't allow for mike to open it up a bit, you gotta be some what smart as to when you take those chances so they don't bite ya in the butt.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

However.... comparing the Mane to fireshanahan.com is ludicrous. For one thing, the Mane was not: a) built for the sole purpose of criticizing a single person, b) dedicated to pointing out that person's flaws (real and imagined), .

But that is the sum total of the content the last couple of weeks. Thus the comparison.

[epicSocialism4tw]

But that is the sum total of the content the last couple of weeks. Thus the comparison.

A valid comparison, indeed.

[Blueflame]

But that is the sum total of the content the last couple of weeks. Thus the comparison.

Yeah... unfortunately, Plummer and the offense remained out of sync for consecutive games. When the performance on the field merits criticism, that's what will be forthcoming... and not just on this messageboard; it's all over the internets. If you're online reading about the Broncos, the subject inevitably goes to "why does the offense suck?" It's probably because Broncos fans are somewhat spoiled, but we're not used to bottom-of-the-league offensive production. We expect more.

It does seem like the Mane has more "optimists" (aka "Plummer apologists" LOL) than some of the other Broncos boards I've visited, though. 8')

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Yeah... unfortunately, Plummer and the offense remained out of sync for consecutive games. When the performance on the field merits criticism, that's what will be forthcoming... and not just on this messageboard; it's all over the internets. If you're online reading about the Broncos, the subject inevitably goes to "why does the offense suck?" It's probably because Broncos fans are somewhat spoiled, but we're not used to bottom-of-the-league offensive production. We expect more.

It does seem like the Mane has more "optimists" (aka "Plummer apologists" LOL) than some of the other Broncos boards I've visited, though. 8')

I am not a Plummer apologist. I think he is a mediocre QB, but it gets really old to sit here and see all of these people pile on the guy and not recognize that there are many other issues with the offense. I guess it is just mob mentality and some of the people involved, I know understand the game better than that.

[Blueflame]

I am not a Plummer apologist. I think he is a mediocre QB, but it gets really old to sit here and see all of these people pile on the guy and not recognize that there are many other issues with the offense. I guess it is just mob mentality and some of the people involved, I know understand the game better than that.

Inconsistency has always been the major criticism Plummer has faced throughout his career. Widespread frustration with his '06 performance is quite understandable, however, since he has never played this poorly since leaving Arizona. You do have a point that we probably have a lot more threads on the subject than are really necessary, but then the point of a messageboard is to provide a venue for the exchange of ideas and opinions. I can relate to the feeling of "enough already; this subject has been covered ad nauseum"... and no doubt it gets tiresome seeing it rehashed. Hopefully, the offense can get their "ducks in a row" (LOL) against the Brownies and bring at least a brief respite. I assure you, we'd all really love that.