PA School Shooting At Least 12 Shot

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Just breaking.....

--------------------------------------------------
6 said killed in Amish school shooting

5 minutes ago NICKEL MINES, Pa. - The county coroner says at least six people were killed in a shooting at a one-room Amish schoolhouse, where state police said earlier a gunman killed "a number" of people Monday in Pennsylvania's bucolic Lancaster County.


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The shooter was among the dead, and a number of people were injured, said state police Cpl. Ralph Striebig.
"There are a number of people dead," Striebig said. "The exact number I do not know yet."
Police surrounded the one-room school late Monday morning, and the Lancaster County 911 Web site reported that dozens of emergency units were dispatched to a "medical emergency" at 10:45 a.m.


Two hours later, about three dozen people in traditional Amish clothing, hats and bonnets stood near the small school building speaking to one another, several young people and authorities. At least two ambulances had left the scene, and at least one person was taken on a stretcher to a medical helicopter.


Officials at the Penn State Milton S. Hershey Medical Center confirmed that victims were being admitted there. A spokeswoman said the hospital anticipated more than one patient, but did not know how many.

http://tinyurl.com/fwokk

[2KBack]

you should mention it is an Amish one room school, adds a whole new wrinkle to an already tragic case

[freak6]

We need to re-evaluate the right to bear arms.

There has got to be a better screening and control process for possessing firearms.

[Crushaholic]

The shooter was reportedly one of the dead, but that's little comfort for the Amish community. It's a horrible ordeal...:(

[freak6]

you should mention it is an Amish one room school, adds a whole new wrinkle to an already tragic case

Seriously. WTF.

"Vicarious"

[Arkie]

If it can happen at an Amish school, it can happen anywhere.

[Dagmar]

They have been happening all too frequently.

[MrPeepers]

wtf is up with this, like 3-4 school shootings this week? Since when did Oct 1, signify it's time to take it to the schools?

Tragic in any case no less. We're sure to get another Littleton reminder out of this.

[alphamale72]

Wow......cant believe this!!....i am a gun owner....but we seriously need to get better restrictions on these things....unreal

[Bronco_Beerslug]

They're saying on the news this happened in a township of about 30,000 and they have no police there because they have virtually no crime. Also saying at least 3 children killed maybe as young as 6 years old. What a horrible story!

Now something was just said about a school in Las Vegas on lockdown because of a student with a gun but didn't hear exactly what was happening there.

[heydensmom]

OMG what is happening it our world. We send our children to school in the hopes they will be safe and return to our homes in one piece. We are failing as a society as a whole.

[bendog]

Seriously. WTF.

"Vicarious"

The amish are pacifists. I mean what the a-hole did in Platte Co, is just as dispicable and sick, because he attacked defenseless children. But targeting the Amish ..... that's really a new level of ironic sickness. I mean if you or I knew some guy was attacking our kids, we'd kill him if we had the chance. The Amish would reject a violent response.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Saying on CNN "Roy" ordered all the boys out of school and took all the girls hostage. Haven't heard anything more about the Vegas school lockdown.






http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20061002/capt.nyol77610021652.amish_school_shooting_nyol776 .jpg?x=380&y=285&sig=jFpwDp4lQs_OxXhnK1sHLQ--
Location of shooting at an Amish school in Nickel Mines, Pa., on Oct. 2, 2006. (AP Graphic)


http://tinyurl.com/lygav

[Old Dude]

Did the PA shooter have any connection to the school, or was he an outsider?

[defenseman]

We need to re-evaluate the right to bear arms.

There has got to be a better screening and control process for possessing firearms.

reevaluate to what? No one is taking my firearms from me. Sorry bout that, right to bear arms is what it is......dman

[freak6]

OMG what is happening it our world. We send our children to school in the hopes they will be safe and return to our homes in one piece. We are failing as a society as a whole.

It's Littlehorns fault.

It all started with the 2000 election.

He "wasn't on point, didn't feel a sense of urgency" about terrorism, then 9/11.

5 years later, and Bin Laden is still at large???? WTF.

He twists that and scares us into Iraq. 3 more Marines died there, about 100,000 Iraqi civilians killed.

Iran is calling for Jihad, Bush fans the flames there. North Korea, Bush refuses to deal with.

The USA is the most hated country in the world.

Kids today see 10 times more deaths on TV than the previous generation.

Global Warming, the Bush administration hires man to add the words "NOT" twice to the report stating "Global warming is a fact, and is occuring worldwide".

The world is going to hell in a handbasket. Maybe Cheney is the Anti-christ.

[defenseman]

wtf is up with this, like 3-4 school shootings this week? Since when did Oct 1, signify it's time to take it to the schools?

Tragic in any case no less. We're sure to get another Littleton reminder out of this.

Copy cats making news the only way they know how it appears...dman

[watermock]

This is a rash of copycat criminal acts. More restrictions aren't going to take guns off the streets for criminals that grind off serial numbers. There are allready plenty of laws.

[defenseman]

This is a rash of copycat criminal acts. More restrictions aren't going to take guns off the streets for criminals that grind off serial numbers. There are allready plenty of laws.

that is fact......agreed..dman

[2KBack]

Did the PA shooter have any connection to the school, or was he an outsider?


Sounds like an outsider, the Troopers even seemed to know ho it was and called him by name.

[watermock]

Freak wants to first call anyone of faith a moron, now he wants to strip us of the second amendment which is allready severly restricted.

[bendog]

It is not politically possible, but I'd be up for both strict storage laws and registering my guns. I'm not sure that there shouldn't be restrictions of computer games and movies made for kids, either.

[Tredici]

Sometimes you just feel like giving up.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Something going on in Vegas too.

-------------------------------------------------------
Las Vegas schools in lockdown as police hunt teenage gunman
03 October 2006 0041 hrs
LOS ANGELES : Two Las Vegas schools were on lockdown on Monday after police received reports of a student carrying a gun, television reports said.

CNN said police were sweeping neighbourhoods near Mojave High School in an effort to track down the teenager after the third security alert involving firearms at American schools in the space of a week.

There were no reports of injuries or of shots being fired. Police said the student had fled the school after being challenged by campus police as pupils arrived for class.

CNN said a handgun was found by a nearby church while another school in the vicinity was also on lockdown. North Las Vegas Police were not immediately available for comment.

Last week a 16-year-old schoolgirl was killed when a gunman took six hostages at a Colorado school before opening fire and turning the gun on himself as police stormed a classroom.

On Friday, the principal of a Wisconsin high school was killed after being shot by a student. - AFP/de
http://tinyurl.com/lqqas

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Did the PA shooter have any connection to the school, or was he an outsider?
Community member saying a 70 year taxi driver had a falling out with some of the mothers and lined all the girls up against the wall and shot them all.

Unbelievable!!!!

[-Slap-]

I'm so tired of these ****ing cowards and their guns.

[Old Dude]

Community member saying a 70 year taxi driver had a falling out with some of the mothers and lined all the girls up against the wall and shot them all.

Unbelievable!!!!


Oh My God.

Sounds like someone decided to copycat the Bailey incident, which I guess is what happens whenever something gets publicized, but what can you do?

[freak6]

Freak wants to first call anyone of faith a moron, now he wants to strip us of the second amendment which is allready severly restricted.

Boy, I told you once, don't fkn start with me. I never said I want to get rid of the right to bear arms, I just said we need to look at the laws and make them more strict.

[bendog]

I'm so tired of these ****ing cowards and their guns.

It's too bad they're killing themselves. It may be time for some old time deterrence.

[watermock]

Shooting innocent kids in a classroom is like fish in a barrel. It's just so pointless. I hope they unloaded twenty holes in his skull. I guess they were just grade school babies for Christ sake. It's just SO wrong.

[watermock]

There are plenty of laws on the books you Freak. They just aren't enforced.

[Hotrod]

Boy, I told you once, don't fkn start with me. I never said I want to get rid of the right to bear arms, I just said we need to look at the laws and make them more strict.

The problem with that is its just a knee jerk reaction. We dont need more band-aids what we need is more accountability in society. It all starts at home you know the place where familys used to spend time together/eat dinner/thow the ball with a child. Teach them basic values. Thats all becoming history. Now its watch some crappy murder story on TV or the kids play a video game where you win if you steal cars and shoot enough cops while mom/dad watch TV and drink too much.

[Rock Chalk]

It is not politically possible, but I'd be up for both strict storage laws and registering my guns. I'm not sure that there shouldn't be restrictions of computer games and movies made for kids, either.

Since the video game explosion, violent crimes among children has went DOWN across the board.

Dont blame video games for sensationalized media coverage of tragic events.

[freak6]

Shooting innocent kids in a classroom is like fish in a barrel.

Thanks for that visual knucklehead. I guess he should have at least taken the honorable way and given them a head start?? Cheney shoots animals in a barrell, and then blasted his buddy in the face.

Anyway, I don't know that it could've stopped any of these school shootings, but at some point the diminishing returns of having fire arms turns negatively, in the United States case, it was after the FREAKING REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!

Not the Industrial Revolution, not the Sexual Revolution, THEE REVOLUTION.

[bendog]

naw, I'm with Freak. It needs to be tighter. The kid who shot the principal. If a real gun lock was mandated, and fi the law was enforeced, the kid doesn't get the pistol. And, we need to use existing laws. Those columbine kids wouldn't have had the Tec if people were doing 10 years in a pound you in the ass fed pen for selling a damn gun to a kid.

[bendog]

Since the video game explosion, violent crimes among children has went DOWN across the board.

Dont blame video games for sensationalized media coverage of tragic events.

Somehow, I don't see this trend in kid-punks killing teachers.

And, I've seen figures the other way. That videogames do desensatize kids to violence.

[Rock Chalk]

The problem with that is its just a knee jerk reaction. We dont need more band-aids what we need is more accountability in society. It all starts at home you know the place where familys used to spend time together/eat dinner/thow the ball with a child. Teach them basic values. Thats all becoming history. Now its watch some crappy murder story on TV or the kids play a video game where you win if you steal cars and shoot enough cops while mom/dad watch TV and drink too much.

Again blaming video games is not the answer.

Now, the part about teaching children basic values, spending time with them, yes. TV and video games are not the problem, its lack of efficient parenting by households where both parents work and are either "too tired" to spend time with their children or dont have enough time.

That, and you know, personal accountability. Let's blame the ****ing kids and or adults responsible for committing these acts. I dont care if you are 12 or 30, you know murder is wrong and you should be held accountable for it.

[orinjkrush]

why only women gettin targeted? shooters are misogynists?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Police now say the shooter is 32 year old tanker truck driver for the farms. They also said the girls were tied by the feet and shot in the heads.

So many defective humans in our society. What a horrible and tragic last few moments for those girls!!!

[Rock Chalk]

Somehow, I don't see this trend in kid-punks killing teachers.

And, I've seen figures the other way. That videogames do desensatize kids to violence.

Not according to official statistics from the FBI.

There were more violent crimes among children in the 50s than there were in the 90s. Year by year, violent crime has gone down.

Whatever figures you have seen, do not match actual facts from the FBI that keeps detailed statistics on who committed crimes, ages and when.

As for punk kids killing teachers, yeah, that seems to be a disturbing thing but in reality, it has happened what, 5, 6 times? All tragic, but none of them mean that violent crime among kids is going up. Just means that kids are doing things in a more publicized manner and that the media is going to sensationalize everything far beyond what they would have 30, or 40 years ago.

[-Slap-]

why only women gettin targeted? shooters are misogynists?

Women, children, the Amish.

These scumbags are cowards, first and foremost.


Harris and Kliebold said they were bullied by jocks, but did those gutless pukes head to the athletic fields to extract their misguided revenge?

No, they launched their cowardly assault on the library.

[Rock Chalk]

http://www.gamerevolution.com/oldsite/articles/violence/violence.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/welcome.html
D.O.J "Recently, the offending rates for 14-17 year-olds reached the lowest levels ever recorded."

To be fair, there have been about 300 studies on the effects of violent media, about 30 of which have been about video games. Most have found little to no connection, although some studies (http://www.childrenssoftware.com/articles/violence.html) found a small, casual correlation between aggressive people and violent media.

Even if true, this does not necessarily mean violent media has created aggressive people. It is more likely that aggressive people are attracted to violent media. Blaming violent media would be like going to the opera, noticing that most people there are rich, and concluding that opera makes people rich. (Classical opera, by the way, is chock full of lust, incest, murder, suicide, and revenge.)

[Rascal]

If my daughter was in school I'd be taking their ass out and home schooling them for a while.

This is freaking unbelievable.

[Rock Chalk]

"As for trends in arrests of juveniles for violent crime, a comparison of 2004 data with those of 2003 indicated that the number of juveniles arrested for violent crimes declined 0.8 percent, 5.5 percent compared with 2000 data, and 30.9 percent compared with 1995 figures."

[Rock Chalk]

So the according to the FBI, the murder rate hit a new 40 year low in 2004. The best selling video game of 2004? Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

Video games are not the cause. Idiot children are.

[footstepsfrom#27]

If it can happen at an Amish school, it can happen anywhere.
Actually it rarely happens, but the media frenzy makes you think it happens much more frequently than it does. Read what Mike Males, the best researcher in the country says:

http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/yt-shoot.html

[24champ]

Boy, I told you once, don't fkn start with me. I never said I want to get rid of the right to bear arms, I just said we need to look at the laws and make them more strict.

You can make them strict as you want but it isn't going to stop people from shooting somebody, heck in Canada they had a shooting at college not too long ago and Canada has some pretty strict gun laws.

[Hotrod]

So the according to the FBI, the murder rate hit a new 40 year low in 2004. The best selling video game of 2004? Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

Video games are not the cause. Idiot children are.

Well thats impressive data and hard to argue. Maybe its not the "violent" nature of the games themselves but the amount of time playing them instead of family time??? Prolly not so much any one thing (video games) but a mixture of things that have all but destroyed famlies and the values of children.

As far as "Idiot children" I once again point my finger directly at the parents.

[Hotrod]

So wait violent crime is down yet we hear about it more then ever before. I guess its a ratings thing. They report what people will tune in to watch. I guess that speaks volumes for society.....

[Old Dude]

So wait violent crime is down yet we hear about it more then ever before. I guess its a ratings thing. They report what people will tune in to watch. I guess that speaks volumes for society.....

This is just a guess ... but maybe the reason the overall violent crime rate is down is due to some success in defusing violence among urban youth gangs. I recall a time when we had a driveby shooting every weekend. That seems to be way down.

Those cases, even back then, didn't get all that much publicity. Networks make more money covering stories that involve celebrity crime or crimes against children, or against females, especially if they are young, good-looking and white.

[ColoradoBuff]

OMG what is happening it our world. We send our children to school in the hopes they will be safe and return to our homes in one piece. We are failing as a society as a whole.


You took the words right out of my mouth. What is this world coming to when our children are getting killed while at school.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So wait violent crime is down yet we hear about it more then ever before. I guess its a ratings thing. They report what people will tune in to watch. I guess that speaks volumes for society.....
Violent crime isn't down it's WAY up.

------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Violent Crime Rises at Pace Unseen in 10 Years
All Things Considered, June 12, 2006 · Violent crime across the nation is up. For the first time since 2001, there are more murders, rapes and assaults, according to the FBI.

But violent crime didn't just rise last year. According to the numbers, it jumped 2.5 percent. That's the biggest increase since 1991, when the country was battling gangs and the crack epidemic.

According to the report, cities with less than a quarter-million people had the largest increases -- homicides alone were up 12 percent last year.

Criminologist speculate that there are several reasons for the rise in violent crime: cutbacks in federal law enforcement grants, a focus on terrorism, a nationwide resurgence in gang activity and signs of increasing youth violence as children born in the 1990s become teenagers.

CONT (http://tinyurl.com/muypj)

[Jens1893]

Video games are not the cause. Idiot children are.

Parents who don´t give a **** about their kids are. And that is a global problem.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15105984/?GT1=8618

Experts: No sure way to stop school killings
Lessons learned from Columbine massacre, but unpredictable still happens
Jean Hasse hugs her daughter Kelly after students were released from the Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colo., on Sept. 27 after shots were fired at the school and hostages taken.
Updated: 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
A gunman kills several students in a one-room Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania. In Colorado, a drifter walks into a school and fatally shoots a student before taking his own life. Wisconsin authorities charge three boys with plotting a bomb attack on their high school and, two weeks later, a student in a rural school allegedly shoots his principal. A gunman bursts into a Vermont elementary school looking for his ex-girlfriend and guns down a teacher.

All of this in the past month alone.

Since the 1999 Columbine massacre that left 15 people dead, there has been a determined effort among administrators, principals and teachers to improve school safety. Law enforcement officers across the nation and around the world have added training specifically intended to address school violence.

But experts say there is simply no way to guarantee that a stranger or student won’t be able to injure or kill on school grounds.

“There’s no perfect security, from the White House to the schoolhouse,” said Kenneth Trump, president of the National School Safety and Security Services consulting firm in Cleveland.

‘Unpredictable outsiders’
Since Columbine, school officials have gotten better at preventing student violence, he said, but authorities can’t prepare for every problem.

“When you factor in unpredictable outsiders, when you have a roaming monster walking into the schools, we have to be realistic,” Trump said. “There are some incidents you’re not going to be able to prevent.”

Trump’s firm counts 17 nonfatal school shootings so far this school year, beginning Aug. 1. There were 85 the previous school year and 52 in the 2004-2005 school year.

Since Columbine in 1999, the number of fatal school shootings in a school year has ranged from three (2002-03) to 24 (2004-05), according to National School Safety and Security Services. The firm does not track cases before Columbine.

Park County Sheriff Fred Wegener was among the law enforcement officials who eagerly applied for federal aid to beef up security at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, the site of last week’s attack in which a man held six girls hostage before killing one and himself.
A deputy was assigned to be the school’s resource officer — essentially, its security guard. But that guard was called away on sheriff’s business last Wednesday and gunman Duane Morrison walked inside with two handguns. He reportedly sat in the school parking lot and wandered the hallways for as long as 35 minutes before the siege began.

Lessons from Columbine
Despite the death of 16-year-old Emily Keyes, things could have been worse, authorities said.

“Basically, the tragedy of Columbine taught law enforcement and educators how to avoid future tragedies,” Gov. Bill Owens said. “In a couple of significant ways, the tragedy of Columbine may have helped prevent an even worse tragedy (here).”

He said educators had been instructed in August on what to do. The school was also designed using concept learned from the Columbine attacks, which helped authorities keep the gunman in one room.

Ever since Columbine, school officials have been taught to write emergency response plans and practice them, to lock down schools and evacuate when it appears safe. That seemed to work well in Bailey as hundreds of students were whisked to safety.

Law enforcement officers who once were taught to set up a perimeter and wait for SWAT teams to show up are now trained in “active shooter” programs that call for the first officers on the scene to enter the building and work as quickly as possible to locate the gunman, Trump said.

“That’s why we were able to isolate it to just one room and get everybody else out,” Wegener said. “Still, you can’t prepare for something like this. You do the best you can.”

‘Nobody knew’
Student Zach Barnes, 16, also said students last year practiced drills for emergencies including a gunman in the school. Students were told to remain calm, taught where to go and how to leave the school. Still, there appeared to be at least one glitch Wednesday.

“We were sitting there in math class and over the intercom they said, ‘Students and teachers, we have a code white, repeat code white,’ and nobody really knew what a code white was,” Barnes said.

He said his teacher pulled a sheet of paper from her desk, checked it and then herded her students into a nearby classroom that had a solid door. After about 25 minutes, a police officer led them into the hallway and out of the school.

Colorado has left decisions on providing security in schools up to some 172 school boards, but state lawmakers said they will look at training and other issues following the Bailey attack.

Providing security guards at every entrance to every school would be difficult, said Senate President Joan Fitz-Gerald, D-Golden, but others said video cameras and security systems could help fill the gap.

“If we could plug in some technology, that would help,” said George Voorheis, superintendent of Colorado’s largely rural Montrose & Olathe Schools District RE1J.

[Old Dude]

Violent crime isn't down it's WAY up.

...

Well, that sucks.

[Alkazar]

We need to re-evaluate the right to bear arms.

There has got to be a better screening and control process for possessing firearms.

Please don't make this worse than it already is. This idiot wanted to kill and if necessary he would have used a pencil to do it. A gun is just a tool, nothing more, its the idiot behind the tool that makes it dangerous.

[Kaylore]

So wait violent crime is down yet we hear about it more then ever before. I guess its a ratings thing. They report what people will tune in to watch. I guess that speaks volumes for society.....

That's a lot of it. With the ability to report and then sensationalize everything, all these incidents are blown up and thrown in our face a million times. I remember when I was in Middle School two kids a grade older than me killed a cop that pulled them over. It was in the news but missed nationally. I think if that happened today, especially with the Columbine history and whatnot, it would be all over CNN, FOXNEWS and MSNBC.

[Kaylore]

Violent crime isn't down it's WAY up.

------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Violent Crime Rises at Pace Unseen in 10 Years
All Things Considered, June 12, 2006 · Violent crime across the nation is up. For the first time since 2001, there are more murders, rapes and assaults, according to the FBI.

But violent crime didn't just rise last year. According to the numbers, it jumped 2.5 percent. That's the biggest increase since 1991, when the country was battling gangs and the crack epidemic.

According to the report, cities with less than a quarter-million people had the largest increases -- homicides alone were up 12 percent last year.

Criminologist speculate that there are several reasons for the rise in violent crime: cutbacks in federal law enforcement grants, a focus on terrorism, a nationwide resurgence in gang activity and signs of increasing youth violence as children born in the 1990s become teenagers.

CONT (http://tinyurl.com/muypj)

Ah, NPR. I'll take the FBI figures over NPR.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ah, NPR. I'll take the FBI figures over NPR.
Those are the FBI figures. Reading the article, one immediately sees this.

[Orange_Beard]

This $hit just breaks my heart.

Seems like it has been happening once a month.

[heydensmom]

This can not be solely be blamed on the media nor the sagging parenting responsibilities. I agree our society has turned away from having family time. Kids are pushed into to many extracurricular activities. When these kids do come home from football, golf, karate, gymnastics, soccer, spelling bee practice, they are over tired and still have homework to contend with. They have less and less time with parents. The push for the more rounded child is causing these children to become more stressed out, easier to turn towards violence. Granted I'm not talking about the child who has basketball practice twice a week...I'm talking about the kid who is scheduled for an activity every single night. The best interaction a kid can have is with his/her friends playing a pick up game of football and or playing Barbie’s (yeah not sure what girls do)

[2KBack]

I'm curious how an incident where a 32 year old is killing children has anything to do with parenting.

[Old Dude]

I'm curious how an incident where a 32 year old is killing children has anything to do with parenting.


I think Heydensmom was addressing the "Columbine" prong of the problem. Now we have a second prong - - the crazed adult intruder.

[Kaylore]

I'm curious how an incident where a 32 year old is killing children has anything to do with parenting.

If it does, it means there was a parenting problem back in the seventies. I happen to believe that a certain percentage of people are just bad seeds and will always be that way.

[Bronx33]

If it does, it means there was a parenting problem back in the seventies. I happen to believe that a certain percentage of people are just bad seeds and will always be that way.


Exactly, stuff like this is never going to change it's a fact some people just flat suck and you will always have someone doing something stupid to leave this world with a bang or try to get more attention than the last fruitcake.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

So how do we identify and stop these "people who flat out suck" before they do these crazy things? I don't have an answer without infringing on constitutionally guaranteed rights.

[Bronx33]

So how do we identify and stop these "people who flat out suck" before they do these crazy things? I don't have an answer without infringing on constitutionally guaranteed rights.

It's nearly impossiable IMO.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So how do we identify and stop these "people who flat out suck" before they do these crazy things? I don't have an answer without infringing on constitutionally guaranteed rights.
They are being stopped from getting on airplanes (at least not getting on with weapons now) so there ought to be a way to stop them from getting into schools with weapons.

[Beantown Bronco]

This can not be solely be blamed on the media nor the sagging parenting responsibilities. I agree our society has turned away from having family time. Kids are pushed into to many extracurricular activities. When these kids do come home from football, golf, karate, gymnastics, soccer, spelling bee practice, they are over tired and still have homework to contend with. They have less and less time with parents. The push for the more rounded child is causing these children to become more stressed out, easier to turn towards violence. Granted I'm not talking about the child who has basketball practice twice a week...I'm talking about the kid who is scheduled for an activity every single night. The best interaction a kid can have is with his/her friends playing a pick up game of football and or playing Barbie’s (yeah not sure what girls do)

90% of the kids I went to school with dealt with this type of schedule and none of us snapped and killed everyone around us. There are people that can deal with life and there are those who can't. Always has been and always will be.

I don't understand the need to over-analyze stuff like this....and this is coming from a criminology major who now works for a law firm.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

They are being stopped from getting on airplanes (at least not getting on with weapons now) so there ought to be a way to stop them from getting into schools with weapons.

So we put xray machines and armed guards at every school entrance. Like someone said elsewhere, then the crazies will just go to a mall, to a church, etc. How far can we go Do we do psych evaluations of everyone and lock up everyone who might be a nut job?

[Old Dude]

So how do we identify and stop these "people who flat out suck" before they do these crazy things? I don't have an answer without infringing on constitutionally guaranteed rights.

So true. The crazy dude in PA reportedly had no criminal record at all.

[Bronx33]

So true. The crazy dude in PA reportedly had no criminal record at all.


People snap it sucks but that's the way it is iam sorry to say.

[-Slap-]

That's a lot of it. With the ability to report and then sensationalize everything, all these incidents are blown up and thrown in our face a million times. I remember when I was in Middle School two kids a grade older than me killed a cop that pulled them over. It was in the news but missed nationally. I think if that happened today, especially with the Columbine history and whatnot, it would be all over CNN, FOXNEWS and MSNBC.

I couldn't disagree more vigorously. I think we've become so desensitized to horrible stories that things that would have paralyzed the nation in horror 20 years ago barely make the evening news now.

About a year ago, some guy walked up to a woman eating lunch at Burger King with her toddler and he shot the one-year-old boy in the chest. Now, part of the reason it didn't dominate the news was because the victims were Mexican, and let's face it, mainstream American media places less value the lives of non-whites. Mainly, it was just because horrific incidents happen every day now and the media can basically pick and choose which ones they want to cover.

[bendog]

While I really don't want to get into it with Alec, for many reasons, it's a logical error to say declining crime stats "prove" computer games don't increase violence. However, I wouldn't argue they do. I tried to say they were a symptom or evidence of society becoming less horrified of terrible things.

As to crime:

There is a strong stat correleation to improving economic conditions and declining crime. So much so, that we generally accept more economic opportunity will cause less crime.

Criminologists also argue to sentencing laws - habitual offenders and tougher sentences for weapons violations. I don't really know. The NRA has been adament, and I agree, that sentencing enhancements for crimes with guns tend to cause criminals to go unarmed.

I don't know of a study, or a way to show it, but I'd hazard a guess that schools are intervening with bullies. Teachers are keeping a sharper eye out for boys who seem withdrawn and isolated. (And what about the girls, who oftne appear much the same after sexual abuse, esp at home? Are they getting less or more attention)

However, nothing shows that violence in computer games causes violence.

The literature shows that groups of more aggressive people (including the adolescent male group) uses violent games more that other groups of people, and that at least in short terms of time, violent games cause violent feelings. But there's no correlation, and certainly no show causation, between actual crimes and games.

My post about limiting access to violent games was more a general societal thing. I think we have become more immune to carnage. It's not real. Iraq isn't really real. It's just numbers.

(btw, pro gamers argue that the studies correlating violent feelings to games are skewed because studies showing no correlation are '**** canned.' I don't buy that for a second.)

[SteveTensi13]

I think its ironic that when prayer and the ten commandments were taken out of the schools this BS started happening. Coincidence? I think not. Thank your local ACLU chapter for this trend!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I think its ironic that when prayer and the ten commandments were taken out of the schools this BS started happening. Coincidence? I think not. Thank your local ACLU chapter for this trend!

Nominated for stupidest post of the year.

[bendog]

Those are the FBI figures. Reading the article, one immediately sees this.

Yeah, they're the fbi figures. There was a lot of WTFs and (not our faults) out there. The dems want to say "bush's econ sucks and the kids are starting to kill again; cutting after school funds; cutting grants for cops .... maybe. OR, it could be a stat blip. OR, it could be the first in a wave of kids whose parents were the crack kids doing the killing in the 80s..... AND THAT's a scary thought

[2KBack]

Yeah, they're the fbi figures. There was a lot of WTFs and (not our faults) out there. The dems want to say "bush's econ sucks and the kids are starting to kill again; cutting after school funds; cutting grants for cops .... maybe. OR, it could be a stat blip. OR, it could be the first in a wave of kids whose parents were the crack kids doing the killing in the 80s..... AND THAT's a scary thought

or a case of a streadily increasing population and the proportional increase in incident. Not to mention steadily decreasing quality of educations in general.

[heydensmom]

90% of the kids I went to school with dealt with this type of schedule and none of us snapped and killed everyone around us. There are people that can deal with life and there are those who can't. Always has been and always will be.

I don't understand the need to over-analyze stuff like this....and this is coming from a criminology major who now works for a law firm.
From my personal experiences with my son, and the 10 or so 8-10 year olds in our neighborhood. The boys who are over scheduled are the kids who in a simple pick up game of football in my back yard are the kids who are quicker to jump into an argument of if Hayden was down there or if he ran out of bounds, if those same boys who are in 1-2 extra activities a DAY loose this argument, they will in a nut shell take there toys and leave, angry This is from personal experiences with granted a handful of boys, but why is it any different from the activities on Colby Road to those on Oak Street in Austin Texas.

And yes there are going to be people who can deal and who can not, but who's not to say that this 32 year old man wasn't one of those over schduled kids in the 80's, and what our society is doing to our current over schduled kids, when they become 32, will they be the crazy man walking into an Amish school killing innocent people.

Now all this is IMO....and granted i'm super busy today at work to properly defend my stance. Frankly I'm just sick and tired of hearing about school killings, to the point where i'm questioning the safety of my child in the public school system.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So we put xray machines and armed guards at every school entrance. Like someone said elsewhere, then the crazies will just go to a mall, to a church, etc. How far can we go Do we do psych evaluations of everyone and lock up everyone who might be a nut job?
I don't know about the malls but I do know that kids going to school and their parents shouldn't have to worry about them being murdered there.

[Old Dude]

Nominated for stupidest post of the year.

I'm afraid I have to 2d that nomination.

[Old Dude]

... but who's not to say that this 32 year old man wasn't one of those over schduled kids in the 80's, and what our society is doing to our current over schduled kids, when they become 32, will they be the crazy man walking into an Amish school killing innocent people.
...


Could be true, but my guess is that we're dealing with some mentally ill people who have some sort of anger/depression problem ... obviously ... and in many cases that turns out to be more neurological than environmental.

IOW, bad plumbing in the brain. And that sort of thing can develop slowly over time.

[bendog]

or a case of a streadily increasing population and the proportional increase in incident. Not to mention steadily decreasing quality of educations in general.

Well, Den's schools got a lot better. I did some volunteer work in a nasty elem school in the mid70s. A teacher had been shot there a year or so before my short time. I quickly bailed and did my student teaching in Greeley. My niece and nephews are in the system now, and it's a good system.

Now have schools gotten worse 2000-06? I have no idea.

No doubt a kid's safer in school than driving to soccer practice. However, the future's a scary thing. I'm seriously considering today looking for retirement job in the college rather than public school arena.

[Beantown Bronco]

From my personal experiences with my son, and the 10 or so 8-10 year olds in our neighborhood. The boys who are over scheduled are the kids who in a simple pick up game of football in my back yard are the kids who are quicker to jump into an argument of if Hayden was down there or if he ran out of bounds, if those same boys who are in 1-2 extra activities a DAY loose this argument, they will in a nut shell take there toys and leave, angry This is from personal experiences with granted a handful of boys, but why is it any different from the activities on Colby Road to those on Oak Street in Austin Texas.

And yes there are going to be people who can deal and who can not, but who's not to say that this 32 year old man wasn't one of those over schduled kids in the 80's, and what our society is doing to our current over schduled kids, when they become 32, will they be the crazy man walking into an Amish school killing innocent people.

Fact: kids in the U.S. devote fewer hrs to school, extra-curricular activities and work than kids in much of the rest of the world; yet we have the highest rates of violent crime by far in the world at all ages (ignoring 3rd world countries). I would look somewhere else to support my case if I were you. (for a more specific, less generalized statement/example: the kids responsible for Columbine certainly weren't overburdened with extra-curricular activities.....quite the opposite actually)

[2KBack]

Well, Den's schools got a lot better. I did some volunteer work in a nasty elem school in the mid70s. A teacher had been shot there a year or so before my short time. I quickly bailed and did my student teaching in Greeley. My niece and nephews are in the system now, and it's a good system.

Now have schools gotten worse 2000-06? I have no idea.

No doubt a kid's safer in school than driving to soccer practice. However, the future's a scary thing. I'm seriously considering today looking for retirement job in the college rather than public school arena.

Actually the Colorado public school system has become one of the best. I know that Fairfax county in VA (another top system now) modeled themselves after Colorado. Not all the school systems suck, but it only take a few to spit out a class of ignorants.

[Phantom]

I think its ironic that when prayer and the ten commandments were taken out of the schools this BS started happening. Coincidence? I think not. Thank your local ACLU chapter for this trend!

That thought crossed my mind, but I think it is more a lack of morality in society as a whole - schools just being part of it.

"Thou shall not kill."

There is no fear of retribution, if that command is broken.

[2KBack]

That thought crossed my mind, but I think it is more a lack of morality in society as a whole - schools just being part of it.

"Thou shall not kill."

There is no fear of retribution, if that command is broken.


Yeah, I don't even believe in hell, but I'm certainly not going to kill anyone.

[Beantown Bronco]

Gas prices have gone up in the past 5-10 years....are we going to start blaming rising gas prices for the rise in crime. People really need to learn the differences between coincidence, correlation and causation.

[Old Dude]

Gas prices have gone up in the past 5-10 years....are we going to start blaming rising gas prices for the rise in crime. People really need to learn the differences between coincidence, correlation and causation.

That would spoil all the fun, though.

[heydensmom]

Fact: kids in the U.S. devote fewer hrs to school, extra-curricular activities and work than kids in much of the rest of the world; yet we have the highest rates of violent crime by far in the world at all ages (ignoring 3rd world countries). I would look somewhere else to support my case if I were you. (for a more specific, less generalized statement/example: the kids responsible for Columbine certainly weren't overburdened with extra-curricular activities.....quite the opposite actually)
And if you are wanting facts...please reference where you recieved your facts from. The facts I have are from a observations made with a small group of boys again ages 8-10, in my backyard playing a game of football, in my house playing video games, interacting with each other. My point is this, from the kids I've PERSONALLY seen, there is an increase in aggressive behavior among the over scheduled kids vs the not over scheduled kids. If you would like for me to properly research my case I can most certainly do that...but not at this time, and I will personally post my finding to not only you but onto this thread, but in all honesty it's a plain waste of my time. I as in much everyone else who has posted on this thread have expressed his and/her's thoughts, feelings, what nots, but the simple fact is these killings are a tragedy.

[Rascal]

I couldn't disagree more vigorously. I think we've become so desensitized to horrible stories that things that would have paralyzed the nation in horror 20 years ago barely make the evening news now.

About a year ago, some guy walked up to a woman eating lunch at Burger King with her toddler and he shot the one-year-old boy in the chest. Now, part of the reason it didn't dominate the news was because the victims were Mexican, and let's face it, mainstream American media places less value the lives of non-whites. Mainly, it was just because horrific incidents happen every day now and the media can basically pick and choose which ones they want to cover.

Unfortunately this is true.

Can this be attributed to the decline of our societies morals? Have they gone down since the 70's or the roaring 20's?

Frankly I don't know, but the similarities between the US and Rome are becoming all to prevelant.

[Old Dude]

...let's face it, mainstream American media places less value the lives of non-whites...

Yes, probably because the mainstream media places enormous value on ratings, and the majority of the viewing public tends to get less riled up when minorities are victimized.

It's sort of a structural racism, and I know that there are people in the media who are aware of it, and even some who feel guilty about it, but money is money.

This is the same reason the death penalty is most often imposed against people who kill whites, especially white women.

[Old Dude]

Unfortunately this is true.

... I don't know, but the similarities between the US and Rome are becoming all to prevelant.

I would have thought that was a bad thing until I saw the HBO miniseries. But now, the thought rather excites me.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

I just can't believe it. My wife and I are in total shock. I'm holding my month-old daughter, trying to get the horrible visual of this shooting out of my head.. and in agony for the parents in PA. WTF, man... I'm embarassed to be a human being...

[Rascal]

I would have thought that was a bad thing until I saw the HBO miniseries. But now, the thought rather excites me.

I didn't see it (only have rabbit ears...but I do have DSL...go figure). Care to elaborate?

[freak6]

The problem with that is its just a knee jerk reaction. We dont need more band-aids what we need is more accountability in society. It all starts at home you know the place where familys used to spend time together/eat dinner/thow the ball with a child. Teach them basic values. Thats all becoming history. Now its watch some crappy murder story on TV or the kids play a video game where you win if you steal cars and shoot enough cops while mom/dad watch TV and drink too much.

REP.

Steve Tensi, your remark about the ten commandments is definitely as Beerslug said, a nominee for stupidest post of the year. You are probably the poster boy for ignorance, and I blame YOUR parents, but at least you're a Bronco fan, they got that right!!!

Someone said something about Canada, and thier gun laws.

In "Bowling for Columbine", a great movie no matter what side of the aisle you are on, he goes to Canada and lists very specific facts detailing why the murder and violent crime rates are so much lower north of the border.

I think it's time for us to drop our hubris and take a look at what other countries are doing that works, and adopt those strategies. To do otherwise is to continue to walk blindly as our children shoot eachother over bullying, drugs, colors, territory, and other silly reasons.

Canada has alot going for it. Legalized weed, cheap Rx, Universal Healthcare, low crime, and they got Ricky Williams.

[-Slap-]

However, nothing shows that violence in computer games causes violence.

The literature shows that groups of more aggressive people (including the adolescent male group) uses violent games more that other groups of people, and that at least in short terms of time, violent games cause violent feelings. But there's no correlation, and certainly no show causation, between actual crimes and games.

My post about limiting access to violent games was more a general societal thing. I think we have become more immune to carnage. It's not real. Iraq isn't really real. It's just numbers.

(btw, pro gamers argue that the studies correlating violent feelings to games are skewed because studies showing no correlation are '**** canned.' I don't buy that for a second.)

I'm of two minds about it. On one hand, I think playing violent games can provide an outlet for some people to vent angry feelings in a safe and cathartic manner.

On the other hand, I think there are definitely young (or impressionable) people who are desensitized by the over the top anti-social behavior depicted in certain video games.

Ultimately, I think interactive material like this is one place where a certain level of censorship should be enforced.

[Clockwork Orange]

Ultimately, I think interactive material like this is one place where a certain level of censorship should be enforced.

I disagree. This is where there needs to be a certain level of parental involvement. Much like television, it's convenient to plop your kid down in front of the Playstation or XBox and let it serve as a babysitter. Parents need to monitor what they're putting their children in front of and be sure that they've established the difference between fiction and reality with their kid.

It worked for me and with my son because of parental involvement.

[watermock]

Bronco_Beerslug
Angling in the Deep




"Here's to swimmin, with bow legged women"


Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Texas Riviera
Posts: 13,146

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveTensi13
I think its ironic that when prayer and the ten commandments were taken out of the schools this BS started happening. Coincidence? I think not. Thank your local ACLU chapter for this trend!


Nominated for stupidest post of the year.
__________________

I don't think that is unreasonable at all. The day they pull the 10 commandments out from behind the Supreme Court bench, you can count the days. These are real strict rules. Don't steal, Don't Kill, Don't commit adultry, Honor your father and mother, don't lie,

Yep. All a bunch of crap.

[-Slap-]

I disagree. This is where there needs to be a certain level of parental involvement. Much like television, it's convenient to plop your kid down in front of the Playstation or XBox and let it serve as a babysitter. Parents need to monitor what they're putting their children in front of and be sure that they've established the difference between fiction and reality with their kid.

It worked for me and with my son because of parental involvement.

Parental involvement for every child would be great, but its unrealistic. There are plenty of people who are essentially children trying to raise children.

Now, are you saying you disagree with any type of censorship in video games?

[Dagmar]

Nominated for stupidest post of the year.

Dude, we don't even need to wait till the end of the year, give him the damn award. That post was a disaster.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I disagree. This is where there needs to be a certain level of parental involvement. Much like television, it's convenient to plop your kid down in front of the Playstation or XBox and let it serve as a babysitter. Parents need to monitor what they're putting their children in front of and be sure that they've established the difference between fiction and reality with their kid.

It worked for me and with my son because of parental involvement.
That is not a reality in this country for millions of "families".

[Rascal]

Schools are not and never should be a replacement for parental guidance. That is a huge mistake (ie relying on the gov't to raise your kids).

[Clockwork Orange]

Now, are you saying you disagree with any type of censorship in video games?

Of course not. I believe there are certain lines that shouldn't be crossed, but at that point you're getting into a discussion about taste and personal ethics. That varies from one individual to the next. I'm pretty liberal when it comes to those things, so there isn't a whole lot that I'd believe to be out of bounds.

[Clockwork Orange]

That is not a reality in this country for millions of "families".

I guess I was being too idealistic when I said that, then.

Doesn't make it any less true.

[No1BroncoFan]

Video games are not the cause. Idiot children are.
I have to disagree here Alec. It's usually the idiot parents that screw up the kids to the point that they want to kill someone.

Ben

[-Slap-]

I think there are people who are going to keep pushing the boundaries

I don't think any rational person would want to see a game that graphically allows the player to participate in rape or torture, but I'm sure those game engines exist and some people are just itching to explore that market.

I think the interactive nature of video games makes that kind of material much more objectionable (and potentially dangerous) than similar depictions in print or cinema mediums.

[No1BroncoFan]

Nominated for stupidest post of the year.
Second!

Ben

[rubaiyat]

Since the video game explosion, violent crimes among children has went DOWN across the board.

Dont blame video games for sensationalized media coverage of tragic events.

That's what society does for it's ills. It used to be comic books...because many criminals read comic books when they were younger...never mind that back then almost EVERY child read comic books...that medium is still stigmatized.

Rock and roll got past it since it is so adaptable...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

We need to re-evaluate the right to bear arms.

There has got to be a better screening and control process for possessing firearms.

Yep.

This is a no-brainer.

(Cue a tantrum from W*GS, a.k.a. "The NRA.")

BTW, dig the sig, compadre. :thumbs:

[24champ]

Yep.

This is a no-brainer.

(Cue a tantrum from W*GS, a.k.a. "The NRA.")

BTW, dig the sig, compadre. :thumbs:

Cool so should we ban alcohol too because people abuse it and kill people when that happens?

[Beantown Bronco]

And if you are wanting facts...please reference where you recieved your facts from. The facts I have are from a observations made with a small group of boys again ages 8-10, in my backyard playing a game of football, in my house playing video games, interacting with each other. My point is this, from the kids I've PERSONALLY seen, there is an increase in aggressive behavior among the over scheduled kids vs the not over scheduled kids. If you would like for me to properly research my case I can most certainly do that...but not at this time, and I will personally post my finding to not only you but onto this thread, but in all honesty it's a plain waste of my time. I as in much everyone else who has posted on this thread have expressed his and/her's thoughts, feelings, what nots, but the simple fact is these killings are a tragedy.

My personal experience in high school showed me that 99% of the after school fights involved guys that played no sports and participated in no after school activities. They were generally the textbook "bad boys" who had like-minded friends, but were not "over-scheduled" (unless you count smoking by the bus turnaround during class, foootball practice, etc., a stressful scheduled activity). Only one fight in the dozens that were witnessed by me involved a 3 sport athlete, and that was back in junior high and it was more of a wrestling match that ended as soon as they tired. Both were from good families and grew up well adjusted.

I personally knew hundreds of kids that did 2-3 sports a year and participated in after school clubs, etc. NONE have committed any headline grabbing violent crimes and only a small, select few have gotten in trouble with the law since graduation over 10 years ago.

Go walk into a prison and ask how many of the inmates committed their violent crimes because they did too much in junior high and high school.....then see how hard they laugh at you.

Fact: most crimes are committed in the afternoons when kids are participating in all of these activities you speak of (how can they be in two places at once?).

[Bronco_Beerslug]

My personal experience in high school showed me that 99% of the after school fights involved guys that played no sports and participated in no after school activities. I don't know about the rest of your post but this was anything but true at my high school. Of course, it was many moon ago for my school years so things may have changed since then. We had entire schools (jocks) fighting each other.

[alkemical]

"eating seeds is a past time activity" - S.O.A.D -


I work about 30min from where this happened. Sad, and not more than a few months ago some kid killed his entire family in a house right on route 23. (In lancaster country) -

Look, most of you know how i stand. I'm against the use of CCTV in schools (but understand why it's there), and armed patrolmen in schools (although i know why it's there).

But it also breeds paranioa and mistrust of authority - it gets you used to being watched with strict measures.

Anway i feel sad for their loss.


America - we are sick. Killing kids is our past time it seems these days - in one form or another.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Two more of the little girls died this AM, four more are in critical condition.

-------------------------------------------------------
5 girls dead in Amish school shooting
By MARK SCOLFORO, Associated Press Writer Tue Oct 3, 8:16 AM ET

NICKEL MINES, Pa. - Two more children died Tuesday morning of wounds from the shootings at an Amish schoolhouse, raising the death toll to five girls plus the gunman who apparently was spurred by a two-decades-old grudge.

The toll from the nation's third deadly school shooting in less than a week rose twice within a matter of hours Tuesday with the deaths of a 9-year-old girl at Christiana Hospital in Delaware and a 7-year-old girl at Penn State Children's Hospital in Hershey.

Five additional girls were hospitalized.

The Bush administration on Monday called for a school violence summit to be held next week with education and law enforcement officials to discuss possible federal action to help communities prevent violence and deal with its aftermath.

State police spokeswoman Linette Quinn said the two girls who died early Tuesday had suffered "very severe injuries, but the other ones are coming along very well."

The 9-year-old girl died about 1 a.m., and the 7-year-old girl died about 4:30 a.m.

"Her parents were with her," hospital spokeswoman Amy Buehler Stranges said of the 7-year-old. "She was taken off life support and she passed away shortly after."

CONT (http://tinyurl.com/zoawr)

[bendog]

I'm of two minds about it. On one hand, I think playing violent games can provide an outlet for some people to vent angry feelings in a safe and cathartic manner.

On the other hand, I think there are definitely young (or impressionable) people who are desensitized by the over the top anti-social behavior depicted in certain video games.

Ultimately, I think interactive material like this is one place where a certain level of censorship should be enforced.

yeah, I'm of two minds. Frankly, any person over 25 who would enjoy a game where rape was an acceptable behavior path in the game has got some issues having nothing to do with the game. I never asserted that the game would be the cause of this guy acting out in life what the game provides.

Rather, I think it's more akin to snuff films. Someone simply cannot rationally deny that there's a societal dehumanizing in this stuff. Can/should it be banned? Prolly not. Should distributing it to children get a guy 30 days in the hole. Yeah, imo, no question.

Someone posted that we are not desensitized to violence. I think they must be young. I recall the U of Texas sniper thing, where a guy gunned down a bunch of kids. The story played out over a year. No copycats that I recall. The Boston Strangler. Movie book. Now we'll move on from Penn after a week of video and await the next school massacre/hostage. The next serial killer is just waiting for the cable news.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

This list gives a better idea of just how common this has become lately.

-------------------------------------------------------------
List of some fatal U.S. school shootings
By The Associated Press Mon Oct 2, 3:25 PM ET


• Oct. 2, 2006: A gunman took about a dozen girls hostage, killing at least three of them, at a one-room Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania's Lancaster County, police said. The shooter was among the dead, and a number of people were injured.

• Sept. 29, 2006: 15-year-old Eric Hainstock brought two guns to a school in rural Cazenovia, Wis., and fatally shot the principal, a day after the principal gave him a disciplinary warning for having tobacco on school grounds, police said.

• Sept. 27, 2006: Duane Morrison, 53, took six girls hostage at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colo. Morrison, sexually assaulting them and using them as human shields for hours before fatally shooting one girl and killing himself.

• Aug. 24, 2006: Christopher Williams, 27, went to an elementary school in Essex, Vermont, looking for his ex-girlfriend, a teacher. He couldn't find her and fatally shot one teacher and wounded another, police said. Williams also killed his ex-girlfriend's mother, according to authorities. He shot himself twice in the head after the rampage and was arrested.

• March 21, 2005: Sixteen-year-old Jeff Weise shot and killed five schoolmates, a teacher and an unarmed guard at a high school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation in Minnesota before taking his own life. Weise had earlier killed his grandfather and his grandfather's companion.

• Nov. 22, 2004: Sixteen-year-old Desmond Keels is accused of fatally shooting one student and wounding three others outside Strawberry Mansion High in Philadelphia. The attack apparently was over a $50 debt in a rap contest. Keels is set to stand trial on murder charges later this month.

• April 24, 2003: 14-year-old James Sheets shot and killed the principal in the crowded cafeteria of a junior high school in south-central Pennsylvania, before killing himself.

• May 26, 2000: 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill killed his English teacher on the last day of classes in Lake Worth, Fla., after the teacher refused to let him talk with two girls in his classroom. He was convicted of second-degree murder and is serving a 28-year sentence.

• April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 23 before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.

• May 21, 1998: Two teenagers were killed and more than 20 people hurt when a teenage boy opened fire at a high school in Springfield, Ore., after killing his parents. Kip Kinkel, 17, was sentenced to nearly 112 years in prison.

• May 19, 1998: Three days before his graduation, an honor student opened fire at a high school in Fayetteville, Tenn., killing a classmate who was dating his ex-girlfriend. Jacob Davis, 18, was sentenced to life in prison.

• March 24, 1998: Two boys, ages 11 and 13, fired on their Jonesboro, Ark., middle school from nearby woods, killing four girls and a teacher and wounding 10 others. Both boys were later convicted of murder and can be held until age 21.

• Dec. 1, 1997: Three students were killed and five wounded at a high school in West Paducah, Ky. Michael Carneal, then 14, later pleaded guilty but mentally ill to murder and is serving life in prison.

• Oct. 1, 1997: Sixteen-year-old Luke Woodham of Pearl, Miss., fatally shot two students and wounded seven others after stabbing his mother to death. He was sentenced the following year to three life sentences.

http://tinyurl.com/s9c2s

[fatcard]

There was a mass murder in Australia 10 years ago that involved a semi automatic weapon, which was legal at the time.

Public outcry had these guns banned (they were purchased from their owners by the government for market price).

There was a stink at the time by some farmers, but they soon got over it... no one could really justify the need to have auto or semi automatic guns of any sort.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

[Bronco Bob]

Cool so should we ban alcohol too because people abuse it and kill people when that happens?

The flaw in that line of reasoning is alcohol isn't intended to kill you.
Small amounts of alcohol are actually good for your heart, a glass of
wine or one beer a day. No amount of bullets are good for your heart.

[24champ]

Small amounts of alcohol are actually good for your heart, a glass of
wine or one beer a day.
Tell that to the 16,000 people that die annually from alcohol related car crashes.

http://www.madd.org/stats/11073

[Hotrod]

The flaw in that line of reasoning is alcohol isn't intended to kill you.
Small amounts of alcohol are actually good for your heart, a glass of
wine or one beer a day. No amount of bullets are good for your heart.

Yet bullets do have other purposes unlike alcohol which really only has one use and thats to numb the minds of those people who cant deal with life head on..............I prefer a couple of beers everyday ;)

[Bronco Bob]

Tell that to the 16,000 people that die annually from alcohol related car crashes.

http://www.madd.org/stats/11073

Tell that to the 40,000 people who die from gunshot wounds and the
200,000 who have to seek medical attention for gunshot wounds every year.

[Rascal]

Taking away guns is not an option IMO. Right to bear arms is pretty clear, and if you get rid of that there are other things that need to be removed first and then you might as well scrap the whole damn thing and start all over.

[defenseman]

Taking away guns is not an option IMO. Right to bear arms is pretty clear, and if you get rid of that there are other things that need to be removed first and then you might as well scrap the whole damn thing and start all over.

Semiauto or full auto though, with the exception of law enforcement or government services, etc...etc....I see no need for them to be honest...dman

[usedupbraids]

i heard about this on CNN, but i live in a battle feild my buddy got killed the other day and they didnt even had it on TV

[freak6]

Semiauto or full auto though, with the exception of law enforcement or government services, etc...etc....I see no need for them to be honest...dman

I think that full auto ban came after the mcdonalds incident where the guy had a mac 10 or something. But there are plenty of AK - 47s out there, and every Armorer in the Corps can take an AR-15 and make it full auto, basically turns into a M4 A-1, what Seals and special ops use.

I don't know that any stricter laws could have stopped these last two school shootings. Maybe if people were forced to check thier weapons in and out of an armory, that was updated with criminal information etc...

I don't think it should be a right to bear arms. I think it should be a privilege. Any convictions and you lose the privilege.

[Hotrod]

I think that full auto ban came after the mcdonalds incident where the guy had a mac 10 or something. But there are plenty of AK - 47s out there, and every Armorer in the Corps can take an AR-15 and make it full auto, basically turns into a M4 A-1, what Seals and special ops use.

I don't know that any stricter laws could have stopped these last two school shootings. Maybe if people were forced to check thier weapons in and out of an armory, that was updated with criminal information etc...

I don't think it should be a right to bear arms. I think it should be a privilege. Any convictions and you lose the privilege.

While Im a huge supporter of the right to bear arms (and do ;D) not only do I agree with this but its already pretty much a law. If you are convicted of a felony you lose your right to bear arms.

The problem is Im sure most convicted felons really dont care if they are breaking the law by having a gun in the first place.

[freak6]

While Im a huge supporter of the right to bear arms (and do ;D) not only do I agree with this but its already pretty much a law. If you are convicted of a felony you lose your right to bear arms.

The problem is Im sure most convicted felons really dont care if they are breaking the law by having a gun in the first place.

Yeah I knew that, but I am saying ANY convictions.

What's going left unsaid is that many of these school shootings are carried out by crazy white males, serial killers too.

[Hotrod]

Yeah I knew that, but I am saying ANY convictions.

What's going left unsaid is that many of these school shootings are carried out by crazy white males, serial killers too.

Ya thats kind of odd how it always seems to be white males. What is it about that??? Just a thought maybe they feel somehow entitled and when life screws them they act out??? This would be an interesting discussion in the war/religion/politic forum.

[fatcard]

Taking away guns is not an option IMO. Right to bear arms is pretty clear, and if you get rid of that there are other things that need to be removed first and then you might as well scrap the whole damn thing and start all over.

A small amendment with some serious potential.

Of course... you'll have to wait until a major shooting occurs while the democrats are in power to have any chance.

Its kids futures we're talking about. Ask any kid if they care if guns are banned... why would they? But by the time they get old enough to vote they probably already have guns of their own, so then its too late.

[-Slap-]

i heard about this on CNN, but i live in a battle feild my buddy got killed the other day and they didnt even had it on TV

You live in a rough part of Philly?

What happened to your friend?

[Arkie]

When guns are banned, the criminals know that they are the only ones who are armed. However, if we could make all guns magically disappear, the world would be a better place.......for big strong criminals. That's because little weak people just had their civil rights to defend their own lives taken away.

[Florida_Bronco]

A small amendment with some serious potential.

Of course... you'll have to wait until a major shooting occurs while the democrats are in power to have any chance.

Its kids futures we're talking about. Ask any kid if they care if guns are banned... why would they? But by the time they get old enough to vote they probably already have guns of their own, so then its too late.

Banning guns will stop the law abiding citzens from owning them, but only make it harder (not stop) for the criminals to own them. I bet if you went back and look at the number of gun crimes commited with firearms obtained through legal means, it would be a surprisingly low number.

Case in point, Florida, which is one of the friendliest states to firearm owners. A day long class with some basic firearm instruction and a background check and you can get a concealed weapons permit. The last I saw, something like 1% of CWP holders had their permits revoked for some reason, and even smaller percentage of those permit holder used their weapons in an unlawful manner.

One of the biggest deterrents of gun crime in Florida is the 10-20-Life law. Pull a gun while committing a crime you get 10 years, if you shoot someone it escalates to 20 years, if someone dies you get life.

[Rascal]

Banning guns will stop the law abiding citzens from owning them, but only make it harder (not stop) for the criminals to own them. I bet if you went back and look at the number of gun crimes commited with firearms obtained through legal means, it would be a surprisingly low number.

Case in point, Florida, which is one of the friendliest states to firearm owners. A day long class with some basic firearm instruction and a background check and you can get a concealed weapons permit. The last I saw, something like 1% of CWP holders had their permits revoked for some reason, and even smaller percentage of those permit holder used their weapons in an unlawful manner.

One of the biggest deterrents of gun crime in Florida is the 10-20-Life law. Pull a gun while committing a crime you get 10 years, if you shoot someone it escalates to 20 years, if someone dies you get life.

That needs to be a national law.

[Florida_Bronco]

That needs to be a national law.

I agree 100%

[Beantown Bronco]

One of the biggest deterrents of gun crime in Florida is the 10-20-Life law. Pull a gun while committing a crime you get 10 years, if you shoot someone it escalates to 20 years, if someone dies you get life.

I don't think this has been an effective deterrent. The whole concept of the bigger the punishment the better relies heavily on assumptions that the average criminal is a logical thinker. This is very flawed logic. If it were true, death penalty states would have the lowest rates of violent crime; and in fact the numbers show the opposite.

Florida is always among the top 10 states for violent crime and murder. Now, perhaps people are using other methods for these crimes than guns, but I highly doubt it. The numbers don't lie - Florida is simply NOT the state I would look to for a national model of crime prevention.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Just to back up to the original story, according to an article in the Denver Post this morning, Roberts wrote his checklist for the "supplies" he took to the school on 9/26. Therefore, it was not a copy cat crime based on what happened in Bailey. He had been planning it for some time.

[alkemical]

If you guys want some local flavour:

http://www.wgal.com/index.html

http://www.abc27.com/

http://www.pennlive.com/

[Florida_Bronco]

I don't think this has been an effective deterrent. The whole concept of the bigger the punishment the better relies heavily on assumptions that the average criminal is a logical thinker. This is very flawed logic. If it were true, death penalty states would have the lowest rates of violent crime; and in fact the numbers show the opposite.

Well what is going to be an effective deterrent? A criminal who has made up his mind to kill someone is likely not going to care what the sentences are because they don't care or think they can get away with it. I can gurantee you though that it deters it's share of criminals that would otherwise use a firearm.

Florida is always among the top 10 states for violent crime and murder. Now, perhaps people are using other methods for these crimes than guns, but I highly doubt it. The numbers don't lie - Florida is simply NOT the state I would look to for a national model of crime prevention.

It's a very heavily populated state, so of course there will be alot of crime by nature. But if you figure the amount of crime against the number of people in the state, I bet you'd be surprised. The last one I saw (which was several years ago) had us down around #33 or so IIRC.

[Beantown Bronco]

Well what is going to be an effective deterrent? A criminal who has made up his mind to kill someone is likely not going to care what the sentences are because they don't care or think they can get away with it. I can gurantee you though that it deters it's share of criminals that would otherwise use a firearm.



It's a very heavily populated state, so of course there will be alot of crime by nature. But if you figure the amount of crime against the number of people in the state, I bet you'd be surprised. The last one I saw (which was several years ago) had us down around #33 or so IIRC.

There are plenty of effective deterrents that don't involve harsher sentences. For the states with lower crime rates, it's all about prevention of the act; not punishment after the avoidable act occurred.

I understand the difference between total incidence and rate by population - I majored in criminology. Based off of the hard numbers issued by the FBI for the 2005 calendar year, Florida has a higher rate (per 100,000 of population) of violent crime than all but Washington DC, South Carolina and Tennessee. That's pretty bad. (They are middle of the pack for just murders)

[Florida_Bronco]

There are plenty of effective deterrents that don't involve harsher sentences. For the states with lower crime rates, it's all about prevention of the act; not punishment after the avoidable act occurred.

I understand the difference between total incidence and rate by population - I majored in criminology. Based off of the hard numbers issued by the FBI for the 2005 calendar year, Florida has a higher rate (per 100,000 of population) of violent crime than all but Washington DC, South Carolina and Tennessee. That's pretty bad. (They are middle of the pack for just murders)

So what exactly do you think should be done about it? How do you prevent it?

[Beantown Bronco]

There are hundreds of ways to prevent crimes, some more effective than others....depends on who's committing them. If we're talking about kids committing the crimes, then you usually need more after school activities, gang intervention groups (run by former gang members) have worked well up here, more jobs for teens, and parenting workshops. Some other recent "hot" items which tend to help general violent crime prevention are community policing, neighborhood watch programs and simply flooding the hot spots for crime with more police.

I'm just not a big believer in throwing money at big punishment over all else. It costs way too much to simply lock people up for longer and longer periods of time and it is clear that the states that are the most strict when it comes to sentencing are generally the ones with the highest rates of crime. There are better ways to spend that same money.

[alkemical]

I'll Be Your Mirror - V.U - w/Nico

I'll be your mirror
Reflect what you are, in case you don't know
I'll be the wind, the rain and the sunset
The light on your door to show that you're home
When you think the night has seen your mind
That inside you're twisted and unkind
Let me stand to show that you are blind
Please put down your hands
'Cause I see you
I find it hard to believe you don't know
The beauty that you are
But if you don't let me be your eyes
A hand in your darkness, so you won't be afraid
When you think the night has seen your mind
That inside you're twisted and unkind
Let me stand to show that you are blind
Please put down your hands
'Cause I see you
I'll be your mirror

[Beantown Bronco]

That's about as deep as Linda Lovelace's throat............



when she was 5 yrs old.

[alkemical]

That's about as deep as Linda Lovelace's throat............



when she was 5 yrs old.



Sorry if you don't like the velvelts - it's a good song - and well - we are outraged by the ugly but we refuse to look in the mirror to see why it's there.