The death of online sports betting / gambling in the US

[OregonBronco]

Sad news for all of us online poker players.

http://www.forbes.com/business/2006/10/02/internet-gambling-offshore-tech-ebiz-cx_po_1002gambling.html

It's a good thing my government is there to keep me from hurting myself. I just don't think I could figure out right and wrong without someone else telling me what to do.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Sad news for all of us online poker players.

http://www.forbes.com/business/2006/10/02/internet-gambling-offshore-tech-ebiz-cx_po_1002gambling.html

It's a good thing my government is there to keep me from hurting myself. I just don't think I could figure out right and wrong without someone else telling me what to do.

Another feather in the hat of republican lawmakers legislating morality on Americans once again, PATHETIC!!!!!!

The idiots don't seem to understand I'll give my business to offshore foreign companies now.

Many in the industry had expected that the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act would never make it through the Senate. However, late on Friday, Senate Majority Leader and presidential hopeful Bill Frist apparently tacked the measure onto a port security bill. The bill was passed by a vote of 409 to 2 in the final minutes before Congress recessed.

"He found a bill he could attach it to that would not result in the opposition of the other side," said Joseph Kelly, a business law professor at State University of New York at Buffalo who studies online gambling.

[bendog]

Can you? I thought it was illegal for credit card companies to do biz? I haven't followed it. I'm not into gambling, and morally really have no problem with what the gop's doing, but ideologically I have been a goper because they have been for one-person-one-vote and more libertarian view of the individual v. the govt. I doubt I'll vote gop in 08 though

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Can you? I thought it was illegal for credit card companies to do biz? I haven't followed it. I'm not into gambling, and morally really have no problem with what the gop's doing, but ideologically I have been a goper because they have been for one-person-one-vote and more libertarian view of the individual v. the govt. I doubt I'll vote gop in 08 though
Only enforceable using American companies. I'll use foreign companies now, it's no problem at all. Does this idiot Frist think he can censor the Internet now?

[bendog]

I'm lost. You'll use a mastercard/visa right? Can you get one from an overseas bank?

Direct tv doesn't carry the horse racing channel, but I get it at the gym. If I had access ..... I might could get back into handicapping. I could also study for the GRE or get my spanish hablaing again .... I could read a good book .... lol

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'm lost. You'll use a mastercard/visa right? Can you get one from an overseas bank?

Direct tv doesn't carry the horse racing channel, but I get it at the gym. If I had access ..... I might could get back into handicapping. I could also study for the GRE or get my spanish hablaing again .... I could read a good book .... lol
I'll use my Visa but not through an American company governed by this morality law. Lots of Euro and Russian transaction companies.

[OregonBronco]

The problems here are:

a) There was a lot of money going to businesses outside the US
b) Regular gambling laws are left up to the states and online gaming completely bypasses that
c) The GOP is now under control of the religious right who like to impose their views on everyone else

What we have on our hands now is the modern version of prohibition. Oddly enough, though, bets from online horse racing and lotteries are not affected by this bill. Also, aside from Forbes, I have yet to see this on any mainstream US news outlets, whereas this story is all abuzz around the rest of the world's news agencies.

[bendog]

hmmm, somehow I guess that people who watch much network news, or who are cable news junkies, don't play online poker.

It's still shameless for cnn and fox not to call out the Rel Right in Congress and the WH on this.

[yavoon]

Another feather in the hat of republican lawmakers legislating morality on Americans once again, PATHETIC!!!!!!

The idiots don't seem to understand I'll give my business to offshore foreign companies now.

u always gave ur business to offshore foreign companies. there are no american online gambling companies, its illegal. most of them are in britain.

[yavoon]

I'm pretty libertarian, but u ppl need to calm down. gambling is illegal in the vast majority of all states(besides the indian reservation thing). this isnt some radical change in position, the US gov't has always had gambling be illegal in the vast majority of america, this is just a closing of a loophole.

and frankly I doubt its really closed.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

u always gave ur business to offshore foreign companies. there are no american online gambling companies, its illegal. most of them are in britain.
You need to research the topic a little more.

A bill was passed by the U.S. Congress over the weekend, outlawing credit-card and money-transfer companies from accepting payments to gambling Web sites

Like I said, I'll use foreign companies to handle my money.

[OregonBronco]

u always gave ur business to offshore foreign companies. there are no american online gambling companies, its illegal. most of them are in britain.

The difference being that now you'll have to use foreign banks to do it.

What I don't understand is that the US is turning its back on this FREAKING HUGE, MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR industry. If 3/4 of the online gaming market comes from the US, why don't we try to capture that market instead of shut it out? Are we that bad at capitalism?

[yavoon]

You need to research the topic a little more.


no, this law actually effects the third party money, like neteller or more brick and mortar banks. and forbids them from dealing in situations where they are aware they are helping u to gamble online.

we had already previously arrested one of the ppl on the board(or some position) of one of the british gambling companies, while he was in america.

[yavoon]

The difference being that now you'll have to use foreign banks to do it.

What I don't understand is that the US is turning its back on this FREAKING HUGE, MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR industry. If 3/4 of the online gaming market comes from the US, why don't we try to capture that market instead of shut it out? Are we that bad at capitalism?

heh, well there's a great market in legalizing heroin too=D.

[OregonBronco]

heh, well there's a great market in legalizing heroin too=D.

It's a slippery slope and a tough topic, but I don't think it would be too hard to see the differences between gambling and heroin....unless you're high. ;D

The bigger question would be where do you define the line between pot and heroin? I, for one, think pot should be legal and regulated like alcohol. I don't use the stuff, but I don't think it's any worse than tobacco or liquor. Heroin, however, should be flushed out of the country. Anyways...back on topic.

[yavoon]

It's a slippery slope and a tough topic, but I don't think it would be too hard to see the differences between gambling and heroin....unless you're high. ;D

The bigger question would be where do you define the line between pot and heroin? I, for one, think pot should be legal and regulated like alcohol. I don't use the stuff, but I don't think it's any worse than tobacco or liquor. Anyways...back on topic.

dont be a wuss:). freeeeeeedom!

=D

[defenseman]

I enjoy a good card game now and then. Win often enough to enjoy. However, I've seen guys lose there paychecks in an hour and head out to borrow more to make it back, only to lose again. Don't like the idea of gambling online myself. Too many factors out of my eyesight. wouldn't bother me to see it gone personally. But, that's just me....dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I enjoy a good card game now and then. Win often enough to enjoy. However, I've seen guys lose there paychecks in an hour and head out to borrow more to make it back, only to lose again. Don't like the idea of gambling online myself. Too many factors out of my eyesight. wouldn't bother me to see it gone personally. But, that's just me....dman
So you're OK with the Republican leadership legislating morality thus telling you that you don't have the right to decide to gamble or not? Gotcha.

[OregonBronco]

However, I've seen guys lose there paychecks in an hour and head out to borrow more to make it back, only to lose again.

Those types of people will always find a way to throw away their lives. How many have lost their retirements in the stock market? How many have lost their houses at the horse track? How many fortunes have been lost in Atlantic City? How many have thrown away their college degrees playing computer games?

From a morality standpoint, it's another case of the irresponsible few taking away from the rest of us who want to have some fun and can still act responsibly.

[broncocalijohn]

The difference being that now you'll have to use foreign banks to do it.

What I don't understand is that the US is turning its back on this FREAKING HUGE, MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR industry. If 3/4 of the online gaming market comes from the US, why don't we try to capture that market instead of shut it out? Are we that bad at capitalism?

I couldnt agree more. Yes, it is illegal to have most gambling in many states but with lotto and such, this is something that can bring in huge $ to the coffers and we would all be willing if we had our own gambling sites in teh USA. It wont bother me too much as I use companies that tranfer my credit card payment to either netteller or phone card then use that to get money at the poker site. My credit card company hasnt accepted my money for gambling sites for a long time. Dont know why u guys think much of this. No change for me jsut congress not seeing the $ signs but it is illegal so no change as it is currently.

[yavoon]

I couldnt agree more. Yes, it is illegal to have most gambling in many states but with lotto and such, this is something that can bring in huge $ to the coffers and we would all be willing if we had our own gambling sites in teh USA. It wont bother me too much as I use companies that tranfer my credit card payment to either netteller or phone card then use that to get money at the poker site. My credit card company hasnt accepted my money for gambling sites for a long time. Dont know why u guys think much of this. No change for me jsut congress not seeing the $ signs but it is illegal so no change as it is currently.

state lotto's are just a way to tax the poor. I support them!

=D

[Taco John]

Moving this to the main forum since there are some online sports gamblers on the site who might be interested in the topic.

[OregonBronco]

state lotto's are just a way to tax the poor. I support them!

=D

Heh...more like a tax on optimism. I know plenty of middle-class to middle/upper-class people who still buy regulary. *cough*My parents*cough*

[Garcia Bronco]

Interesting....hopefully this will keep money from leaving the country

[Dr. Broncenstein]

This sucks... I want the government out of my life.. fiscally and morally.. Self responsiblity takes another hit today.

[yavoon]

Heh...more like a tax on optimism. I know plenty of middle-class to middle/upper-class people who still buy regulary. *cough*My parents*cough*

well I guess really its a tax on stupidity. but we all know where stupidity is concentrated:).

no offense to ur parents, everyone has their weakness.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Interesting....hopefully this will keep money from leaving the country
Are you kidding?

[Dagmar]

Recent statement TruePoker made.

Can I make a Deposit to TruePoker from the United States ?

Congress passed the UIGE Act of 2006, which covers deposits made by US players to certain types of sites. Our read is that Act covers only sites which offer Sports Betting or Casino type games where you bet against the Site itself.

We are not going to be breaking any laws, we believe this Act does not apply to sites not in "the business of betting or wagering", which we are not.

We will need to see what develops in the payments processing industry over the next few weeks with respect to your ability to send money, but TruePoker's poker operations will continue for US players.

Summary:

TruePoker does NOT make or accept bets or wagers in which it has any stake in the outcome. So, our games and tournaments, and your deposits, are not covered by this UIGE Act of 2006.

TruePoker does not have a stake in the outcome of the games or tournaments we offer, in the US or anywhere else. (We do not offer casino games or sports betting, and so have no stake in the outcome and are not in the "business of betting or wagering")

Business Decisions:

Certain sites, such as Party and Pacific, have decided to abandon the US poker market as a busness decision. We view our commitment to our customes a bit differently. The Act does not outlaw playing poker on the Internet from the US, period. We certainly will accept deposits and new accounts as long as we can do so. We see NO reason to cut off play in any event under this Act.

As you do, We await developments in the payments processing industry, but it is business as usual for Truepoker's poker operations.

[Natedogg]

Well I never really used online gambling before. But after this liberty-revoking bill, I am going to start. Banned books have better sales.

[OregonBronco]

Recent statement TruePoker made.
TruePoker does NOT make or accept bets or wagers in which it has any stake in the outcome. So, our games and tournaments, and your deposits, are not covered by this UIGE Act of 2006.


If they rake the table at all, it would have to fall under accepting bets or wagers. And I can't imagine any online poker site that wouldn't rake the tables. How would they make money?

[REB]

I can't tell you how much those perverted, crooked, hypocritical bastards in DC piss me off. They can say and pass whatever feakin' law they want but I will still be playing online poker. I've done very well this pass year with it and love the game. Where there's a will there's a way. Oh and for God sake people VOTE Libertarian before big brother starts putting cameras in everyone's homes.

[REB]

Oh and beerslug. Not to take up for republicans in this matter cuz that's just impossible, but the vast majority of Dem's voted to outlaw it too in the house.

[Steve Sewell]

The problems here are:

c) The GOP is now under control of the religious right who like to impose their views on everyone else



Thankfully this will be changing in just a few short months. I am so f*cking tired of government legislating morality on people.

I remember Bush in 2000, and his schtick was "personal responsibility" and making government smaller and run more like a business.

We've seen the exact f*cking opposite over the last 6 years: instead of "personal responsibility" we have "legislated morality", and instead of smaller government, we have the largets government in the history of the US and the largest deficit in the history of the US.

[watermock]

It's more of a matter of places like the Caymans avoiding taxation than some moral stance.

[snowspot66]

I've never used any online gambling sites of any kind. I personally won't miss them. I'm just pissed off about the way this was all put into law. Tacking something on to a bill that all but has to be passed is bull**** and the reason we have so many issues with red tape and excess bull**** wasting tons of money.

[-Slap-]

Frist is doing this whole thing because he thinks it will play in Iowa and New Hampshire.

Billions lost in internet stock value the last couple days just because this doofus has Presidential aspirations. He's too shortsighted and stupid to realize he just killed his political career.

[-Slap-]

It won't affect me as I have hundreds of sportsbooks at my disposal here and I'll just find another bookie when I move out of state.

My sympathies to all the cappers and card players who are going to be inconvenienced, though.

[Pendejo]

I've never used any online gambling sites of any kind. I personally won't miss them. I'm just pissed off about the way this was all put into law. Tacking something on to a bill that all but has to be passed is bull**** and the reason we have so many issues with red tape and excess bull**** wasting tons of money.

Riders = how the snakes pass all sorts of suspect bills. It's not even close to being a new tactic.

[Taco John]

Any guesses at the percentage of online gamblers who voted in the last election? I'd bet that number doesn't break past the teens, though I'll admit it's just a guess based on the small sample size of people I personally know who gamble online, not a single one of which could find a ballot box with both hands if one was welded to their ass. This is the only reason I think Frist would be so bold: no downside to him or his party... Only upside by way of the religious conservative vote.

[-Slap-]

Any guesses at the percentage of online gamblers who voted in the last election? I'd bet that number doesn't break past the teens, though I'll admit it's just a guess based on the small sample size of people I personally know who gamble online, not a single one of which could find a ballot box with both hands if one was welded to their ass. This is the only reason I think Frist would be so bold: no downside to him or his party... Only upside by way of the religious conservative vote.

Yeah, but the people who own and lost money on internet stock are not the people you're talking about. Those people vote.

Ultimately its so the idiot segment of the church can feel like good is being done. Its almost funny, in a tragic way, how simplistic these people are.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Any guesses at the percentage of online gamblers who voted in the last election? I'd bet that number doesn't break past the teens, though I'll admit it's just a guess based on the small sample size of people I personally know who gamble online, not a single one of which could find a ballot box with both hands if one was welded to their ass. This is the only reason I think Frist would be so bold: no downside to him or his party... Only upside by way of the religious conservative vote.
Tens of thousands based on people I know who play online.

And there is PLENTY of downside to back-sliding this religious morality BS into the Ports bill!
He's being raked on boards I visit.

[-Slap-]

It's a slippery slope and a tough topic, but I don't think it would be too hard to see the differences between gambling and heroin....unless you're high. ;D

The bigger question would be where do you define the line between pot and heroin? I, for one, think pot should be legal and regulated like alcohol. I don't use the stuff, but I don't think it's any worse than tobacco or liquor. Heroin, however, should be flushed out of the country. Anyways...back on topic.

Know a few pot smokers up there in Oregon, do you?

:)

[yavoon]

I'm pretty libertarian, but u guys do realize america has been anti gambling for a long time right? this is not a new development. maybe sometime in the last 50, 100? years one of u "we should legalize gambling." ppl shoulda spoken up.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'm pretty libertarian, but u guys do realize america has been anti gambling for a long time right? this is not a new development. maybe sometime in the last 50, 100? years one of u "we should legalize gambling." ppl shoulda spoken up.We legalized gambling in this country 2 decades ago (lottos).

[yavoon]

We legalized gambling in this country 2 decades ago (lottos).

like I said earlier, lottos aren't legalized gambling, its a poor tax:).

and lottos is hardly the issue here. we're talking poker mostly, but I assume this effects sportsbetting, which there was, as far as I know. no1 trying to legalize.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

like I said earlier, lottos aren't legalized gambling, its a poor tax:).

and lottos is hardly the issue here. we're talking poker mostly, but I assume this effects sportsbetting, which there was, as far as I know. no1 trying to legalize.
Also with casinos in many states so gambling has been legal for a long time in this country. Dog tracks, horse tracks, gambling ships , etc...

[Cito Pelon]

Frist is doing this whole thing because . . . . ..

. . . . . . he's equtiable to a La Cosa Nostra boss. Hell, this entire "Congressional leadership" is racketeering. Both sides of the aisle. They are ruled by money and influence. Reminds me of the Mob.

[yavoon]

Also with casinos in many states so gambling has been legal for a long time in this country.

states can do nothing about indian reservations. how many states allow casino's not on indian reservations? do we have a number? 2?

like i said, america has been anti gambling for quite a while. so all this "omg they're coming down on us now." stuff is a little melodramatic.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Here's a list of casinos that have websites with many not listed here. America definitely isn't anti gambling anymore, it's pro money using any route to get there. That's why Frist's pandering to the religious right by sneaking this in at midnight when no one was looking was his only option.

Casinos

Here are the websites of casinos located in the United States. Many casinos offer special room rates and promotions on thier sites. There have been many mergers and acquisitions in the casino industry and because of this there are corporations that own casinos in multiple destinations. You will find these listed on the main page. To find a specific casino click on the State folder.
Subtopics
Arizona (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/arizonacasinos/) Louisiana (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/louisiana/) Atlantic City, NJ (13) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/atlanticcity/) Michigan (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/michigan/) California (47) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/california/) Minnesota (16) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/minnesota/) Colorado (22) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/coloradocasinos/) Mississippi (21) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/casinostunicami/) Connecticut (4) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/connecticutcasinos/) Missouri (7) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/missour1/) Delaware (3) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/delaware/) Montana (8) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/montana/) Georgia (1) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/georgia/) Nevada (50) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/nevada/) Idaho (6) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/idaho/) New Mexico (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/newmexico/) Illinois (6) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/illino2/) New York (17) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/newyork/) Indiana (9) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/indiana/) North Carolina (1) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/northcarolina/) Iowa (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/iowa/) North Dakota (6) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/northdakota/) Kansas (4) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/kansas/) Oklahoma (27) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/oklahoma/) Las Vegas, NV (68) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/casinoslasvegas/) Rhode Island (2) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/rhodeisland/) Laughlin, NV (9) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/casinoslaughlin/)

[yavoon]

Here's a list of casinos that have websites with many not listed here. America definitely isn't anti gambling anymore, it's pro money using any route to get there. That's why Frist's pandering to the religious right by sneaking this in at midnight when no one was looking was his only option.

Casinos

Here are the websites of casinos located in the United States. Many casinos offer special room rates and promotions on thier sites. There have been many mergers and acquisitions in the casino industry and because of this there are corporations that own casinos in multiple destinations. You will find these listed on the main page. To find a specific casino click on the State folder.
Subtopics
Arizona (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/arizonacasinos/) Louisiana (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/louisiana/) Atlantic City, NJ (13) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/atlanticcity/) Michigan (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/michigan/) California (47) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/california/) Minnesota (16) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/minnesota/) Colorado (22) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/coloradocasinos/) Mississippi (21) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/casinostunicami/) Connecticut (4) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/connecticutcasinos/) Missouri (7) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/missour1/) Delaware (3) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/delaware/) Montana (8) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/montana/) Georgia (1) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/georgia/) Nevada (50) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/nevada/) Idaho (6) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/idaho/) New Mexico (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/newmexico/) Illinois (6) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/illino2/) New York (17) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/newyork/) Indiana (9) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/indiana/) North Carolina (1) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/northcarolina/) Iowa (15) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/iowa/) North Dakota (6) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/northdakota/) Kansas (4) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/kansas/) Oklahoma (27) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/oklahoma/) Las Vegas, NV (68) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/casinoslasvegas/) Rhode Island (2) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/rhodeisland/) Laughlin, NV (9) (http://casinogambling.about.com/od/casinoslaughlin/)

and these aren't on indian reservations?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

and these aren't on indian reservations?No, not all of them. None of them are in Colorado except for one or two.

[Popps]

The idiots don't seem to understand I'll give my business to offshore foreign companies now.

Ummm... that's actually what they're trying to keep you from doing.

[yavoon]

No, not all of them. None of them are in Colorado.

not all of them? seems to me u wanna drum up a situation that doesn't exist. acting like they are singling u out, when they are just closing a loophole on an issue that hasn't changed for a long time.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ummm... that's actually what they're trying to keep you from doing.
Uh, no, they are preventing American companies from doing what the rest of the world is doing, making money from gambling. Bill Frist has no right to tell me how I may spend my money no matter how close to God he thinks he is.

[Popps]

Oh and beerslug. Not to take up for republicans in this matter cuz that's just impossible, but the vast majority of Dem's voted to outlaw it too in the house.

That would have required a little research, as opposed to just an immediate condemnation of a political party in efforts to boost another.

It's like when we were all so (supposedly) worried when Howard Stern was being fined. It was just an outrage. Of course, it's been going on for years and continues to go on, but it's not convenient to anyone's political argument, so it's not a topic of conversation.

As for the bill itself, it's a travesty. I'm glad they're really focusing on the tough issues like this, and not worrying so much about little things like illegal immigration, though.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by REB http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1296248#post1296248)
Oh and beerslug. Not to take up for republicans in this matter cuz that's just impossible, but the vast majority of Dem's voted to outlaw it too in the house.

This was a railroad job by Frist who knew no one could vote against it since he attached it the Ports bill.

[Archie]

so... threee things I notice on this...

1) are not we in on-season mode?

"Senate Majority Leader and presidential hopeful Bill Frist apparently tacked the measure onto a port security bill. The bill was passed by a vote of 409 to 2 in the final minutes before Congress recessed."

2) This does not really follow since Frist could would impact a Senate version of the bill and the vote they are referring to is clearly in the House.

3) Obviously if the vote is 409 to 2 then this is not a "republican vs. democrat" but pretty much the entire elected government.

I tend to agree that this is more closing a loophole then registering a see-change in moral policy.

[spdirty]

Hey slug, if you dont mind since I use neteller to go to full tilt, and thats gonna be shut down soon, could you be a lamb and help me out here?

You seem to have figured out the loophole, I just wanna get in there too.

BTW, f%^& Frist. I hope he pulls a Trent Lott and gets his ass kicked out of the majority leadership position.

[spdirty]

Originally Posted by REB http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1296248#post1296248)
Oh and beerslug. Not to take up for republicans in this matter cuz that's just impossible, but the vast majority of Dem's voted to outlaw it too in the house.

This was a railroad job by Frist who knew no one could vote against it since he attached it the Ports bill.


yep.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Didn't we have this same conversation about 2 and a half months ago when the House originally voted in favor of this bill? Oh and a grand total 2 Representatives (409-2) voted against the final version of the bill today, so spare the faux outrage at a single party. They were both complicit in this.

I said it last time this was discussed that I really don't care if people bet online, but people need to quit with the, "they're taking away my freedom" BS. The Feds have always maintained that internet gambling on sports is illegal under the Wire Act, and they moved today to close what they believe to be a loophole.

[maven]

states can do nothing about indian reservations. how many states allow casino's not on indian reservations? do we have a number? 2?

like i said, america has been anti gambling for quite a while. so all this "omg they're coming down on us now." stuff is a little melodramatic.

When was the last time you've been out of your state.? There are casinos, dog tracks, horse tracks all over the country. You must be holed up in Utah.

[Natedogg]

Its not much of a stretch to believe (as I do) that the Indian Reservations who held a ton of sway in Congress via Jack Abramoff still do and were big (protectionist) supporters of the bill.

I just read a story off Drudge that said a wave of consolodations was going to hit the industries... You could probably make a lot more money by buying gambling stock during this dip than by picking teams on sundays.

By the Way, a Torrent of the 1984 Snow Bowl is up in the Torrent Forum.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

[/COLOR][/B][/I]This was a railroad job by Frist who knew no one could vote against it since he attached it the Ports bill.


There are many things that need to be changed about the Senate. Attaching amendments to bills that have no relationship in any way, secret holds on legislation, and blue slipping of judges are some of the things that come right to my mind.

[Natedogg]

I said it last time this was discussed that I really don't care if people bet online, but people need to quit with the, "they're taking away my freedom" BS. The Feds have always maintained that internet gambling on sports is illegal under the Wire Act, and they moved today to close what they believe to be a loophole.

It's really not so much that as the audacity of Congress to think that they can police and regulate the internet. Furthermore the Federal government is hypocritical to maintain that gambling to fill the state coffers is alright but gambling for ones own pleasure is illegal.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Hey slug, if you dont mind since I use neteller to go to full tilt, and thats gonna be shut down soon, could you be a lamb and help me out here?

You seem to have figured out the loophole, I just wanna get in there too.

BTW, f%^& Frist. I hope he pulls a Trent Lott and gets his ass kicked out of the majority leadership position.
There will be ways to beat it here, more than likely, but I thought this might happen a couple weeks ago after reading about it so I opened an account at an offshore bank.

I've been thinking about moving some of my money offshore anyway so this just kinda of got me moving that way.

Canada (http://www.huntington.com/tm/TM88.htm) is an option too (here's just one example).

You can read more at the Hold-em forum (http://tinyurl.com/fft6e).

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Its not much of a stretch to believe (as I do) that the Indian Reservations who held a ton of sway in Congress via Jack Abramoff still do and were big (protectionist) supporters of the bill.


Possible. But I doubt it, though I'm sure people could point out the correlation. I think as internet gambling became bigger and bigger business, the feds began to take notice. I don't think that the rise in Abramoff's influence brought about the feds sudden interest in the off-shore sites.

[watermock]

Ever been to an Indian casino? It's one of the most depressing things imaginable. It's a bunch of middle aged women yanking one arm bandits. They can rig the machines anyway they want too. They are exempt from most gaming rules. I went in one and lasted about 15 minutes. It was a bunch of robots hanking slots. I didn't hear a bell ring one time.

And it smelled bad. You think you smell the greed in Vegas, try an Indian Casino. It's absurd. I have tolerated dives like the Western on Freemont with burn holes in the carpet, but that was just rediculous. You might as well put a huge pack of monkeys in there to pull bars.

I never played slots, always the Sportsbook or Blackjack. Never. I might throw some coins in at times, but I never had any luck and it's so arbitrary and one sided. I would go play nickle slots as some cheap ass Casino in Vegas till she stopped giving me free beer. Heh. Nicle slots are amusing...there was a naked woman in a fish tank outside. No kidding.

[maven]

I just read a story off Drudge that said a wave of consolodations was going to hit the industries... You could probably make a lot more money by buying gambling stock during this dip than by picking teams on sundays.



The resorts & casino sector has been consolidating the past 5 years. Heck, the largest casino corp. Harrah's is considering a buyout by two private-equity firms. The sector, IMO, has had its run. I would actually do the opposite & stay away from the sector.

[DenverSportsFan4]

I see why people hate this country... Our government is extremely greedy, that is 100% of the reason why this has happened, they don't want Americans spending their money with a company in another country.

[watermock]

I see why people hate this country... Our government is extremely greedy, that is 100% of the reason why this has happened, they don't want Americans spending their money with a company in another country.

Somebody here actually gets it. I'm constantly amazed how naive people are. This isn't a republican "moral" issue....It's a taxation issue.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

It's really not so much that as the audacity of Congress to think that they can police and regulate the internet. Furthermore the Federal government is hypocritical to maintain that gambling to fill the state coffers is alright but gambling for ones own pleasure is illegal.

But they're not regulating the internet per se, they're regulating the credit card companies who make payments to those off-shore sites. They already believe internet gambling is illegal. And I'd fully expect any government official to say it's their prerogative to say that gambling that fills their coffers is legal, and the areas they haven't found a way to tax yet are illegal.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

PPA's membership has almost doubled since this happened.
Here's PPA's letter to members....

Dear Members,

As you may already know, the U.S. Congress approved an online poker prohibition late Friday evening. The ban was snuck into the Port Security Act during a back room deal and following extensive political strong-arming by the Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) and the Speaker of the House, J. Dennis Hastert (R-IL). This tactic discouraged debate on the bill and allowed it to pass without any public discussion. Why a poker ban was included in the Port Security Act is beyond me and most poker players and should be of concern to every American. It was a “bad beat” but we are still at the table.

This is no time to panic, but rather we must learn and build from this loss. The Poker Players Alliance is not leaving the fight, although now it is going to take an even greater effort from poker players and our organization to achieve our objectives.

What do we want to do now?

Poker Exemption

We continue to demand that poker receive separate treatment from other forms of gaming. It is a game of skill, where performance is merited, and a community game, where the house is not your competition. These are real and significant differences. Our desire is to achieve the same type of exemption from legislation that other interests have received (Horseracing, Lotteries, and Fantasy Sports). We will continue to push forward to obtain this separate treatment when Congress comes back from the elections and into the next legislative session. Between now and when the new bill becomes effective (3 to 6 months) poker has an opportunity to achieve the same exemption. This is our most immediate short-term goal.

License, Regulate and Tax

Regulation is the best public policy solution for both the federal government and the American poker player. Prohibition of on-line poker will only drive the game underground and build distrust and misunderstanding amongst the 70 million Americans who enjoy the great game of poker. I spent the better part of the year engaging members of the House and Senate about the idea of regulating Internet poker. This has raised interest from both Democrats and Republican’s alike. There has even been legislation introduced that seeks to establish a Congressional commission that would examine the best way to regulate this industry. Early this summer the PPA commissioned an economic analysis of the potential tax revenue that could be raised through regulation. Members of Congress have been receptive to this study and the $3.3 Billion that could be raised annually for the federal government. This is our ultimate goal and the PPA will drive this ag! enda.

What should you do know? First, every member of the PPA should be registered to vote in the upcoming state and federal elections. If you are not yet registered there is still time, click here to find out about how to register in your state. https://ssl.capwiz.com/congressorg/e4/nvra/ Second, be sure to vote on Election Day, Tuesday, Nov. 7th. We must put our vote where our voice is and establish a poker voting block. While the Port Security Act which included the prohibition legislation was passed near unanimously in both the House and the Senate, the House did have a clean vote on the poker prohibition in July. A list of how House members voted in July is available on our Web site too, click here. Finally, the PPA needs your help to spread the word about our organization. Please tell at least nine friends who might not know about the Poker Players Alliance to join the fight. We need to be 1 Million strong going into 2007.

Very soon a brief analysis of the Internet Gambling Prohibition Amendment will be posted on our website. Please return to www.pokerplayersalliance.org soon so you can learn how this legislation will affect you.

Again, I want to thank you for your support, and hope that you will continue that support as the Poker Players Alliance enters the next level of commitment. This is not over.

Regards,
Michael Bolcerek
President
Poker Players Alliance
http://www.pokerplayersalliance.org/

[watermock]

I see why people hate this country... Our government is extremely greedy, that is 100% of the reason why this has happened, they don't want Americans spending their money with a company in another country.

Somebody here actually gets it. I'm constantly amazed how naive people are. This isn't a republican "moral" issue....It's a taxation issue.

Why do you think they are based in the Caymans...the nice climate?

One other thing. You run a SERIOUS risk of identiy theft.

[Natedogg]

Possible. But I doubt it, though I'm sure people could point out the correlation. I think as internet gambling became bigger and bigger business, the feds began to take notice. I don't think that the rise in Abramoff's influence brought about the feds sudden interest in the off-shore sites.

The thing is, Bill Frist wrote this bill, not the Feds. I know the FBI arrested one offshore owner a few months ago. But this incarnation of the law was done by Congress (Rep and Dem members alike). It might be tinfoil hat territory, but attempting to crackdown on ofshore sites in return for silence by the Tribes about past shady lobbing dealings raises my eyebrows.

[watermock]

They are commiting identity theft and maiul fraud.

Get a clue. Anyone who walks into an Indian Casino is a complete fool.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Somebody here actually gets it. I'm constantly amazed how naive people are. This isn't a republican "moral" issue....It's a taxation issue.
Wrong, there was a "clean" vote on this in July.

[Natedogg]

But they're not regulating the internet per se, they're regulating the credit card companies who make payments to those off-shore sites. They already believe internet gambling is illegal. And I'd fully expect any government official to say it's their prerogative to say that gambling that fills their coffers is legal, and the areas they haven't found a way to tax yet are illegal.

I guess I just believe that the govenment has no business telling the credit card companies who they can and cannot broker my money to. Also they won't be able to. Offshore credit card companies are one example, egold is another, companies which state "this is not a gambling site" but actually are are a third.

In short even if internet gamblign is technically illegal, it is realistically unstoppable. And I think Congress is wasting its time (and my money) trying to enforce it. I think they need to take a more realistic compromise. An ideal compromise would pry include taxation.

[F**kOakland]

I'm pretty libertarian, but u ppl need to calm down. gambling is illegal in the vast majority of all states(besides the indian reservation thing). this isnt some radical change in position, the US gov't has always had gambling be illegal in the vast majority of america, this is just a closing of a loophole.


Gambling is legal in the U.S. in some form except two states Utah and Hawaii. ...now i have to find a bookie!!

[Taco John]

Ummm... that's actually what they're trying to keep you from doing.

Actually, it's my understanding that Harrah's has the most to lose with this bill... Though I'm not certain of the accuracy of that statement.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I guess I just believe that the govenment has no business telling the credit card companies who they can and cannot broker my money to. Also they won't be able to. Offshore credit card companies are one example, egold is another, companies which state "this is not a gambling site" but actually are are a third.

In short even if internet gamblign is technically illegal, it is realistically unstoppable. And I think Congress is wasting its time (and my money) trying to enforce it. I think they need to take a more realistic compromise. An ideal compromise would pry include taxation.
This was actually in the works until Frist pulled this sh*t.

Regulation is the best public policy solution for both the federal government and the American poker player. Prohibition of on-line poker will only drive the game underground and build distrust and misunderstanding amongst the 70 million Americans who enjoy the great game of poker. I spent the better part of the year engaging members of the House and Senate about the idea of regulating Internet poker. This has raised interest from both Democrats and Republican’s alike. There has even been legislation introduced that seeks to establish a Congressional commission that would examine the best way to regulate this industry. Early this summer the PPA commissioned an economic analysis of the potential tax revenue that could be raised through regulation. Members of Congress have been receptive to this study and the $3.3 Billion that could be raised annually for the federal government. This is our ultimate goal and the PPA will drive this agenda.

[maven]

Wrong, there was a "clean" vote on this in July.


Do you have a link of who voted for/against back in July. Can't seem to find it on ppl dot org

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Do you have a link of who voted for/against back in July. Can't seem to find it on ppl dot org
http://www.pokerplayersalliance.org/alerts/HR4411_Votes.pdf

[ak1971]

Actually, it's my understanding that Harrah's has the most to lose with this bill... Though I'm not certain of the accuracy of that statement.



Considering most of the entrants into this years WSOP (which is owned by Harrahs) qualified on line I am assuming it will cut into that. They took a $5MM rake on the main event alone. Most online sites are where people get interested to start playing live, and thus lose more and build bigger casinos. If you play online, I would suggest keeping as little money in your account as you need for the time being..Im moving to Macau

[Tredici]

Jeez guys. Get off yer azzes, buy a few snacks and invite some real people over to play poker. Deyamn computer geeks.

:garcia:

[Natedogg]

http://www.pokerplayersalliance.org/alerts/HR4411_Votes.pdf

Well, GollyGee. It looks like all 7 Colorado representatives voted against a ban on internet gambling and then flippflopped thier votes. I'll be making an angry phone call tomorrow.

[Tredici]

No they voted down some bill it got attached to at the last minute. That's the crap which should stop.

[Natedogg]

Jeez guys. Get off yer azzes, buy a few snacks and invite some real people over to play poker. Deyamn computer geeks.

:garcia:

If its for money, I think that's technally illegal too. :(

[maven]

http://www.pokerplayersalliance.org/alerts/HR4411_Votes.pdf

That skank Katherine Harris strikes again!:pfbbt: :moody: ~Popps~

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I guess I just believe that the govenment has no business telling the credit card companies who they can and cannot broker my money to. Also they won't be able to. Offshore credit card companies are one example, egold is another, companies which state "this is not a gambling site" but actually are are a third.

In short even if internet gamblign is technically illegal, it is realistically unstoppable. And I think Congress is wasting its time (and my money) trying to enforce it. I think they need to take a more realistic compromise. An ideal compromise would pry include taxation.

Without getting into the libertarian argument about whether these things should be legal in the first place, should people be allowed to buy illicit drugs or prostitutes with credit cards? Those are both currently illegal, and the gov't believes that sports betting on the internet is too. That's the way they are trying to stop it. Should a credit card company be able to lend money at as high a rate as someone will agree to, and the government should allow it to happen because it was a valid contract between two parties? Corporations exist because of laws that allow them to. Because they're pretty much a creation of the government, what they can and cannot do is going to be heavily regulated.

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

[watermock]

Classic stupidity.

When was the World Series of Poker overseas?

I could care less if someone is stupid enough to go to offshore gambling.

[Natedogg]

Without getting into the libertarian argument about whether these things should be legal in the first place, should people be allowed to buy illicit drugs or prostitutes with credit cards? Those are both currently illegal, and the gov't believes that sports betting on the internet is too. That's the way they are trying to stop it. Should a credit card company be able to lend money at as high a rate as someone will agree to, and the government should allow it to happen because it was a valid contract between two parties? Corporations exist because of laws that allow them to. Because they're pretty much a creation of the government, what they can and cannot do is going to be heavily regulated.

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

Well people can by prostitutes with credit cards legally in one state. And in many others they buy an expensive "champane bottle" and get action.

I know for a fact that it is pretty easy to buy incredibly highgrade mailorder marijuana over the internet from Canada (the site I know of uses egold, a credit card substitute). Also a person can use his atm card to withdraw 150 and buy cocaine.

So to answer you question, people do buy these things with credit cards. Should the govenment allow them to? We would have to get into the "libertarian debate" to answer that one. My short answer is yes.

As tempting as it may seem to cap the interest rates that credit cards can charge, its probably not in the economy's best interest... Although, the Federal reserve does "set the pace" by its own interest rates. I think that what happens right now, is that the credit cards with the most fair rates ususally win. I agree, all credit cards have contracts which state they can change the rates whenever they want, and this makes me mad. Frankly, I'd rather congress try and tack this issue.

I also agree that the Supreme court's descision that the 14th amendment (passed in the aftermath of the Civil War) affords corporations the same protection as human beings is ludacris. Unfortunately, I dont have a time machine.

[SoCalBronco]

Actually, it's my understanding that Harrah's has the most to lose with this bill.

Sweet. **** Harrah's.

[Taco John]

If its for money, I think that's technally illegal too. :(

So long as you don't want to marry any of your buddies, I think the Republicans will leave you alone...

[Natedogg]

So long as you don't want to marry any of your buddies, I think the Republicans will leave you alone...

Whose sayin women dont play poker ;)

[Taco John]

Certainly not me. I just got cleaned out on a four card straight flush draw against a woman who hit a flopped flush.

I couldn't help myself... I had to draw it out. How are you ever going to hit a straight flush if you don't draw it out!?

[Natedogg]

Certainly not me. I just got cleaned out on a four card straight flush draw against a woman who hit a flopped flush.

I couldn't help myself... I had to draw it out. How are you ever going to hit a straight flush if you don't draw it out!?

Good thing we passed legislation so more poor americans don't meet the same fate as yourself. Ha!

[Popps]

Uh, no, they are preventing American companies from doing what the rest of the world is doing, making money from gambling. Bill Frist has no right to tell me how I may spend my money no matter how close to God he thinks he is.

Dude, have you read the bill?

It's already illegal for American based companies to engage in internet gambling.

I realize you have a political agenda to sell, but you probably should at least understand the legislation before starting your political tirade.... one I probably agree with, but is still off base of the point of this legislation.

[ClevelandBronco]

I ran a (play money) $1K stake into a (play money) $350K stake about five years ago on an online site, then I lost interest.

It taught me one thing: You should never buy into the idea that you've learned poker just because you've succeeded in an online game. An online game isn't necessarily an even game. There are too many ways for three guys at the table to actually be a team at the table. There are too many ways for three guys at the table to be one guy working it three ways.

Online poker is a good way to learn and practice the game, but an idiot's play with real money.

As for sportsbooks, I'd never bet on another man's performance. Only my own.

Doesn't surprise me at all that Beerslug joined this discussion quickly. He's an addict.

Sports, stocks, cards, futures, it's all the same crap when you crave the rush.

[Popps]

Actually, it's my understanding that Harrah's has the most to lose with this bill... Though I'm not certain of the accuracy of that statement.

The bill that was passed yesterday seeks to restrain the booming but difficult-to-regulate Internet gambling business. Proponents of the crackdown said the industry, which is mostly based overseas, provides a front for money laundering, some of it by drug sellers and terrorist groups, while preying on children and gambling addicts. Americans bet an estimated $6 billion per year online, accounting for half the worldwide market, according to analysis by the Congressional Research Service.

Critics said the bill overreaches and would be difficult to enforce. At its heart are two provisions. One would update the 1961 Wire Act, which bars gambling entities from using wire-based communications for transmitting bets, to include the Internet. The other aims at cutting off the money flow from players to Internet gambling sites by barring the use of electronic payments, such as credit-card transactions.

The biggest losers could be the estimated 23 million Americans who play poker over the Internet. "This bill would needlessly make outlaws of the millions of adult Americans who enjoy online poker, and is the latest example of how our representatives in Congress are ignoring real issues facing our country," warned the grass-roots Poker Players Alliance, in an alert to its more than 25,000 members.

The alliance urged Congress to regulate and tax online poker, rather than effectively ban it, as the House bill would. An economic analysis by the group showed that the federal tax revenue could reach $3.3 billion annually, while states could collect $1 billion more. "We hope that this analysis will give a fresh perspective for U.S. senators about the benefits of regulation," said Michael Bolcerek, president of the alliance.

Some Senate Republicans, in particular Jon Kyl of Arizona, have promoted similar measures and may revive their efforts now that the House has acted. The bill carves out exemptions for horse and dog racing, online lotteries and other games, including fantasy sports leagues, that are legal within state boundaries.



The companies hit hardest by the ruling are those that offer betting markets denominated in U.S. dollars. Most of the companies in the sector are based in Britain or in the Caribbean



While I agree with the sentiments on this thread, it's important to understand the legislation. This bill directly effects one of the main companies I do my work for. Luckily, we've been anticipating this for quite some time, and have moved our focus to other areas for 2008. (2007 should be relatively unaffected, in our case.)

[Popps]

CBS charges $100 per player in a 12 player fantasy league, totaling $1200.
First prize is $600, second prize is jack ****. CBS (A major American corporation) keeps 50% of that gambling pool.

That's legal.

Internet poker site charges a small percentage on the "rake" of a poker hand, usually in the 4% range of the gambling pool.

That's illegal.

Got it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Dude, have you read the bill?

It's already illegal for American based companies to engage in internet gambling.

I realize you have a political agenda to sell, but you probably should at least understand the legislation before starting your political tirade.... one I probably agree with, but is still off base of the point of this legislation.
Apparently, you don't know how to read. It is NOT illegal for American companies to engage in Internet gambling!!!!

And I realize you have to cover for your political agenda (supporting idiots like Bill Frist) but you still don't "get it". . If you think this legislation to ban Banks from doing business with offshore gambling companies was anything BUT political, you and Steve Tensi ought to get together for some Bar B Q.

Congress was on it's way to committee to considering (online poker) just as online gambling is LEGAL for horse racing, lotto, etc... until Frist decided to impart is religious morality on all Americans during the midnight hour of Congress's last session.

U.S. Regulation of Online Poker Could Bring $3.3 Billion in Annual Revenue

For Immediate Release

Contact:
Anne Crago
202.715.1566
Michael Bolcerek
michaelb@pokerplayersalliance.org

Washington D.C.(July 11, 2006) - A study released today shows that more than $3 billion in federal and state revenues could be raised if Internet poker was properly regulated and taxed in the United States. A copy of the full report can be found at www.pokerplayersalliance.org.

The study, prepared by Judy Xanthopoulos an economist with Quantria Strategies, LLC, examines the existing Internet poker market and concludes that the U.S. government would collect a significant potential source of revenue if it were to incorporate this industry into the U.S. economy.

Internet gambling is now regulated in over 80 countries and jurisdictions. The United Kingdom passed legislation in 2005 to regulate and tax Internet gambling. We should follow the lead of the UK for the best public policy approach for this industry.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Jeez guys. Get off yer azzes, buy a few snacks and invite some real people over to play poker. Deyamn computer geeks.

:garcia:
:)

This is more than about just a little neighborhood game to me and millions others. Hold-em is growing so fast that casinos can't build poker rooms fast enough house everyone. It's also a real nice source of "other" income for me.

[Popps]

And I realize you have to cover for your political agenda (supporting idiots like Bill Frist)

I have no ties to Frist whatsoever.

Like I said, we probably agree on the political ramifications of this. But, you're just barfing out factually incorrect information to make your point.
Nothing unusual, I guess.

[Drek]

How anyone could support Frist, knowing that he backdoored a law like this, is beyond my comprehension.

Its like some game for politicians to find who can be the most crooked, underhanded bastard in D.C..

When our own "leaders" are removing our civil liberties at an alarming pace, harassing our own citizens, and running what amounts to a global shell game on its own people, thats when you know the terrorists have won.

[-Slap-]

How anyone could support Frist, knowing that he backdoored a law like this, is beyond my comprehension.

Its like some game for politicians to find who can be the most crooked, underhanded bastard in D.C..

When our own "leaders" are removing our civil liberties at an alarming pace, harassing our own citizens, and running what amounts to a global shell game on its own people, thats when you know the terrorists have won.

Well, that sucks, but I had the Terrorists +1500 on the money line, so it all works out alright.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I have no ties to Frist whatsoever.

Like I said, we probably agree on the political ramifications of this. But, you're just barfing out factually incorrect information to make your point.
Nothing unusual, I guess.
What, are you disappointed because I had to correct because online gambling is LEGAL in the United states? You haven't made one valid or correct point yet in this thread.

[Popps]

What, are you disappointed because I had to correct because online gambling is LEGAL in the United states?

The moon is made of green cheese.

There, I said it. The mountain of information to prove that statement false doesn't matter.

I said it, so it must be true.



Since most of these offshore gambling sites are out of the reach of US authorities and are legal in the countries where they exist, there is really little US authorities can do to stop them. Roy Mark of JupiterMedia.com reported in March that 60 percent of all offshore gambling dollars comes from Americans.

According to the Justice Department, Internet gambling is illegal for Americans. The courts have ruled that under the 1961 Wire Wager Act, which prohibits the use of phone lines for placing sports bets, Internet sports betting is illegal.

Oh, that pesky factual information getting in the way of Beerslug's political tirade again.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

How anyone could support Frist, knowing that he backdoored a law like this, is beyond my comprehension.

Its like some game for politicians to find who can be the most crooked, underhanded bastard in D.C..

When our own "leaders" are removing our civil liberties at an alarming pace, harassing our own citizens, and running what amounts to a global shell game on its own people, thats when you know the terrorists have won.

Favorite Bumper Sticker

Politics
Poli = many
tics = small annoying bloodsuckers

[PLOWHORSE]

The resorts & casino sector has been consolidating the past 5 years. Heck, the largest casino corp. Harrah's is considering a buyout by two private-equity firms. The sector, IMO, has had its run. I would actually do the opposite & stay away from the sector.

In other news...REO Speedwagon is playing soon at a Casino nearby!!:~ohyah!:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The moon is made of green cheese.

There, I said it. The mountain of information to prove that statement false doesn't matter.

I said it, so it must be true.

Since most of these offshore gambling sites are out of the reach of US authorities and are legal in the countries where they exist, there is really little US authorities can do to stop them. Roy Mark of JupiterMedia.com reported in March that 60 percent of all offshore gambling dollars comes from Americans.

According to the Justice Department, Internet gambling is illegal for Americans. The courts have ruled that under the 1961 Wire Wager Act, which prohibits the use of phone lines for placing sports bets, Internet sports betting is illegal.

Oh, that pesky factual information getting in the way of Beerslug's political tirade again.

IF you would have read this bill you say you DID read you would know that Internet wagering on horse racing, lotto etc... is EXEMPTED from this BS legislation.

Your personal commentary is pretty weak but considering your reading comprehension it's understandable.

[Garcia Bronco]

The problem is the off shore betting and the money leaving the country....this isn't a moral issue at all....it is what it is...a money issue. Gambling can be a vice though...and it's ruined many lives. Same can be said for smoking, alcohol, and drug use legal and illegal.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The problem is the off shore betting and the money leaving the country....this isn't a moral issue at all....it is what it is...a money issue. Gambling can be a vice though...and it's ruined many lives. Same can be said for smoking, alcohol, and drug use legal and illegal.
Really, why this BS legislation then when Congress was ready to committee hearings for legalized Internet gambling here that would have brought in billions to the federal coffers?

And remember, gambling is LEGAL in this country including Internet gambling.

[fido]

Favorite Bumper Sticker

Politics
Poli = many
tics = small annoying bloodsuckers

Soooo True

Every "law" equals one less freedom

[KillerBronco#76]

Thankfully this will be changing in just a few short months. I am so ****ing tired of government legislating morality on people.

I remember Bush in 2000, and his schtick was "personal responsibility" and making government smaller and run more like a business.

We've seen the exact ****ing opposite over the last 6 years: instead of "personal responsibility" we have "legislated morality", and instead of smaller government, we have the largets government in the history of the US and the largest deficit in the history of the US.


I have supported many of the things bush has done but there is the fact that what you said here is absolutley true. I am pretty hard core conservative but i beleive in a jeffersonian ideal. Why cant people gamble if they want too? Its up to you personally to not blow everything you have on gambling.

My political views are constantly changing cause im starting to figure out what wrong with politics. Im a republican but all the republicans in power are doing is saying there want a smaller gov't and then expanding it. at least the democrats dont try and hide the fact they want a bigger gov't.

Even Reagan who has done the best job as a republican president didnt shrink the gov't he just slowed the growth more than anyone else. It is really getting rediculous. Were supposed to be the party that wants less govt regulation and all we do is turn around and expand the gov't.

It is frustrating especialy being only 18 right now i cant imagine whats gonna happen soon if we keep goin at this rate. Its not looking very bright. we need someone that wont be corrupted and not enforce their own values rather then the values of the people.

[Popps]

IF you would have read this bill you say you DID read you would know that Internet wagering on horse racing, lotto etc... is EXEMPTED from this BS legislation.

Your personal commentary is pretty weak but considering your reading comprehension it's understandable.

Wait, now we're talking about horse racing and lotto?

My reading comprehension is fine, and I've accurately represented the bill as it reads and the law as it states. So, when you come in with statements like... "internet gambling is legal in the u.s."... on a thread where people are clearly talking about poker sites and sports betting, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Again, if you would slow down and stop sounding like LABF, you'd probably realize that we agree, here. But... you can't just barf out untruths because it fits your political agenda.

My point was that:

A. Most of the money is made outside the country

B. Internet gambling is technically illegal in this country. (Yes, lottos and certain dog or horse racing may be exempt... this thread is CLEARLY not about Lotto.) .

Both of those statements are true... and I've proven both beyond a doubt.

You're so used to calling people names and screaming about your politics, you can't even agree with someone when they're on the same page as you.

Whatever works for you.

[Popps]

Really, why this BS legislation then when Congress was ready to committee hearings for legalized Internet gambling here that would have brought in billions to the federal coffers?

And remember, gambling is LEGAL in this country including Internet gambling.

According to the Justice Department, Internet gambling is illegal for Americans. The courts have ruled that under the 1961 Wire Wager Act, which prohibits the use of phone lines for placing sports bets, Internet sports betting is illegal.

The moon is made of green cheese! :wave:

[i4jelway7]

who actually thinks the new "law" will make a difference in online betting.... waiting...
.
.
.
.
.
.
still waiting

.
.
.
.
.
oh wait guess what it won't make a sh!t bit of difference, there is too much money to be made and lost, the offshores will find a way for you to fund your accounts... now getting winnings out of the accounts, that may be another story...

[Circle Orange]

Sheesh, you sure can't legislate behavior...only punishment. :clown:

[OregonBronco]

who actually thinks the new "law" will make a difference in online betting.... waiting...


The only difference I really see is every site moving to a PayPal-esque way to fund your account. But I'm hoping that Congress pulls its head out and figures out we can use the internet gaming boom to our economic advantage. I know....I won't hold my breath.

[DarkHorse30]

...such a vast conspiracy theory that the haters paint of the "religious right". Truly vast.

I wonder if it's possible to have an opinion AGAINST online gambling....and still not be labled as a member of the horrible religious right that want to eliminate freedom for everybody and make everybody go to church on Sunday. Oh...the horror.

Come one and all into the gigantic tent that hates anybody that prays and goes to church.....and wants to eliminate freedom???

What a hilarious thread.....especially on a football site where the fans live and die by what successful footballl players do......before they point to the sky. Brilliant.

[Rock Chalk]

The difference being that now you'll have to use foreign banks to do it.

What I don't understand is that the US is turning its back on this FREAKING HUGE, MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR industry. If 3/4 of the online gaming market comes from the US, why don't we try to capture that market instead of shut it out? Are we that bad at capitalism?

Here are some studies that seem to disagree that it is a huge multi-billion dollar industry that helps the economy:
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Studies%20and%20White%20Papers/Economics/KindtJoyDenverLaw.pdf
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Studies%20and%20White%20Papers/Economics/2004-06-stanfordjournala%20recriminalize.pdf
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Studies%20and%20White%20Papers/Economics/2004-06-temple-destructeconompolicies.pdf
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Studies%20and%20White%20Papers/Economics/2004-06-nmindiancasino.pdf
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Studies%20and%20White%20Papers/Economics/Grinols%20Mustard.pdf
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Studies%20and%20White%20Papers/Economics/GrinolsCutting%20Cards%20and%20Craps.pdf
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/Nevada%20rankings%20Chart%20revised.mht
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/Atlantic%20City%20Crime.pdf
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/Facts%20about%20Gambling%20and%20Addiction.mht
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/Lottery%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/Grinols-Summary-30APR0311.pdf
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/suicides.mht
http://www.ncalg.org/Gambilng%20Inside%20Story.htm#_edn3

Personally, I dont care. All I care about is states rights to make the choice and this bill SEEMS to give back to the states the right to make gambling legal or not which means making internet gambling (an already illegal practice) even more difficult.

[OregonBronco]

What a hilarious thread.....especially on a football site where the fans live and die by what successful footballl players do......before they point to the sky. Brilliant.

Do you have an opinion on the issue? Or do you just like to dog other people who do have opinions?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

According to the Justice Department, Internet gambling is illegal for Americans. The courts have ruled that under the 1961 Wire Wager Act, which prohibits the use of phone lines for placing sports bets, Internet sports betting is illegal.

The moon is made of green cheese! :wave:
LOL
You're the genius that stated this...

According to the Justice Department, Internet gambling is illegal for Americans.
.
I told you it wasn't and it isn't. That's why this bill had to have exemptions built into it. This bill would put CERTAIN ASPECTS of online gambling for Americans out of reach by charging banks to become policeman and monitor how they use their credit cards.

First the bill does not make poker playing illegal on the Internet at a Federal Level (http://www.pokerplayersalliance.org/alerts/Analysis_of_Internet_Gambling_Prohibition_Act.pdf) , although it will make it much more difficult to enjoy “your game” on-line. As we have mentioned before we are immediately working on your behalf to obtain an exemption for Poker prior to the financial enforcement provisions are finalized (estimated between 3 to 9 months). This is the most important thing that the Poker Players Alliance and its members can do in the short term.

This version of the Internet Gambling Prohibition Act that amended the Safe Port Act contains no amendment to the 1961 Wire Act.

Until now (http://tinyurl.com/q9km2), U.S. laws governing Internet gambling have been ambiguous, leaving the way open for the $12 billion online industry to flourish with American customers.

(the previous 1961 Wire Act was only used to charge firms that took sports bets)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The only difference I really see is every site moving to a PayPal-esque way to fund your account. But I'm hoping that Congress pulls its head out and figures out we can use the internet gaming boom to our economic advantage. I know....I won't hold my breath.
Yeah we're only talking about a 10 billion plus a year industry they could tap into. Congress is (was) definitely interested in it (see the clean vote taken in July).

[DarkHorse30]

Do you have an opinion on the issue? Or do you just like to dog other people who do have opinions?

I suspect your mind is made up on this issue....same with BS....so why bother with my silly opinion?

Politics and religion AND GAMBLING...a lethal concoction. Stick to football.....where there is a plethora of religious rightists playing football every week for the masses to enjoy.

[-Slap-]

Without gambling the NFL would be far less popular.

Professional football leagues were originally formed because those guys wanted betting action on Sundays, too.

[phillybroncosnut]

So, I need opinions. I have $1622 in my paradise Poker account right now. Should I withdraw the majority (I'd keep $100 to keep playing with), or, should I not worry about it and keep it in?
Forget the moral opinion. I need to know what some of you think they can actually do to online gamers. They can't keep our winnings can they?

[broncocalijohn]

they just will keep u from depositing. I say put 10k in there then sell your money in account for a tidy profit of say 10%. Transfering in between site accounts can be a business in itself. These sites are not in USA. They cannot touch it. The only way to not have it is for the site to return the dough. IF anybody needs a bonus offer from Titan poker, let me know. I used Netteller with them.

[Popps]

LOL
You're the genius that stated this...

I told you it wasn't and it isn't. .

Right, only that's factually incorrect.

But, I'll bet if you say it a 4th time, it'll become truth.

Go ahead...

[Popps]

So, I need opinions. I have $1622 in my paradise Poker account right now. Should I withdraw the majority (I'd keep $100 to keep playing with), or, should I not worry about it and keep it in?
Forget the moral opinion. I need to know what some of you think they can actually do to online gamers. They can't keep our winnings can they?

I'd play it safe. Leave a little in there to play with, but get the majority out. Not sure how much $1600 represents in your grand scheme, but if it's significant, I'd get it out of there. If they actually do prevent Americans from using their bank accounts and credit cards to deposit, I imagine withdrawing won't be easy, either. Better to take it out now, play with a small bankroll and see where things end up.

Hopefully, you're free-rolling, anway. :thumbsup:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So, I need opinions. I have $1622 in my paradise Poker account right now. Should I withdraw the majority (I'd keep $100 to keep playing with), or, should I not worry about it and keep it in?
Forget the moral opinion. I need to know what some of you think they can actually do to online gamers. They can't keep our winnings can they?
Some companies are going to cease all operations with Americans over this and some aren't. Email or call Paradise and ask what they plan on doing. You should have plenty of time to decide what to do.

For me, I never keep more than 5 or 6 hundred in any of my Poker accounts.

[Garcia Bronco]

Really, why this BS legislation then when Congress was ready to committee hearings for legalized Internet gambling here that would have brought in billions to the federal coffers?

And remember, gambling is LEGAL in this country including Internet gambling.


I do not know....I believe the Wire Act says that to place the bet is not illegal....taking the bet is illegal. So it's these sports book owners at risk.

[frerottenextelway]

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?LOGNOW

everyone please sign this.

[defenseman]

So, I need opinions. I have $1622 in my paradise Poker account right now. Should I withdraw the majority (I'd keep $100 to keep playing with), or, should I not worry about it and keep it in?
Forget the moral opinion. I need to know what some of you think they can actually do to online gamers. They can't keep our winnings can they?

Your money, your call. In any case, what you do with your money is your risk, and yours only. Nobody here will be writing you a check if it all disappears.......dman

[OregonBronco]

I suspect your mind is made up on this issue....same with BS....so why bother with my silly opinion?

Politics and religion AND GAMBLING...a lethal concoction. Stick to football.....where there is a plethora of religious rightists playing football every week for the masses to enjoy.

I have made up my mind. I like to play poker online. It pisses me off that it's being taken away from me. That doesn't mean your opinion on the issue isn't welcome. It's not as if anything is actually being decided on these boards...we're just here to vent. :thumbsup:

[JCMElway]

This should be in the politics forum.

But I agree. Ridiculous. Hopefully Frist and his cronies will have less power come next year.

[OregonBronco]

This should be in the politics forum.

It was. TJ moved it to the main forum for visibility I guess.

I wonder what this decision will do to the popularity of the WSOP. Since about 80% of the ads seem to be for online poker sites, it seems like they'll be losing a lot of sponsorship.

[ak1971]

damn...maybe this will force me to get a life and not multi table 6-7 tables LOL.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

damn...maybe this will force me to get a life and not multi table 6-7 tables LOL.
Damn! I thought doing 3 or 4 was bad, I feel better now :)

[broncocalijohn]

they just will keep u from depositing. I say put 10k in there then sell your money in account for a tidy profit of say 10%. Transfering in between site accounts can be a business in itself. These sites are not in USA. They cannot touch it. The only way to not have it is for the site to return the dough. IF anybody needs a bonus offer from Titan poker, let me know. I used Netteller with them.

well, i wish i did this already. Here is the email I got that is connected to Titan Poker. They have a few other affiliated sites to. This sucks big time. Thos with alot of money in their accounts will be making a nice profit by transfering funds to others. The only way we can still do our Orangemane tourney is if we stay with Full Tilt and pay sinto somebody's paypal account then play a private free sit n go or tourney. Have nt received anything from Partypoker, pokerstars or full tilt yet. here it is.....

To Our Affiliates:

Due to the imminent passing of the Federal Unlawful Gambling Enforcement Act by
the United States Senate on September 30, 2006, and in line with the high level
of service that we have always provided to our affiliates, it is important for us
to advise you that our clients have decided not to accept wagers from residents
in the United States. We will therefore stop handling U.S.-based traffic effective
October 4 2006. While the timing of this is a shock to us all, we have been preparing
for this possibility for quite some time, and already have the infrastructure in
place to make this transition a relatively smooth one.

The European market is obviously very profitable, but the landscape is quite different
than the U.S. market. Fortunately, we have the marketing experts from each localized
market who will be able to use their years of experience to give you the advice
you need to succeed.

Casino Partners is the market leader in France, Italy, Spain and Germany, and as
such, we also have the resources, brands, call centers, localized VIP and customer
support service, as well as the knowledge to serve players from these markets.
Our brands enjoy a reputation for providing the highest quality experience to players
across Europe, which also provides you, as our affiliate, with a unique opportunity
to hit the ground running in these markets.

Casino Partners has the expertise and resources to see that your transition into
these markets is a profitable one. We are able to provide you with the localized
marketing materials and content you will need, as well as the lists of major keywords
you will need to optimize your search engine traffic. We also deal regularly with
translation, so we are able to facilitate the translation of your websites into
the languages of your choosing.

We will honor all of our commitments and you will be paid in full for all U.S. revenue,
but from October 4 2006, U.S. based players will not be able to open new accounts
or make deposits.

If you have any questions, feel free to contact your affiliate manager directly
by sending an email to support@casinopartners.com

Best regards,


Laurent Malka
Director

[broncocalijohn]

i signed the petition. My account will be returned if i wish. I need to build a nice nest egg in there so i can play forever. If i start to lose, ill just pay somebody through paypal to transfer $. I see alot of free poker playing on sites. Does anyone want to move to Canada or england and be a middleman bookie for US citizens and the online gaming sites? I see a 3 to 4 % transfer fee for whoever does it.

[broncocalijohn]

well, here is what i got today. This sucks! I need a republican who will curb illegal alien crap and let poker be played on the internet. That is just a few of my needs.

Due to the recent passing of the Unlawful Gambling Enforcement Act by the United States Senate on September 30, 2006, and its imminent enactment as federal law, we will no longer allow real money gaming activities from United States residents.

We regret to inform you that, consequently, we are closing your gaming account at Titan Poker.

Your balance is available to you. You may access your account and request the withdrawal of such balance, subject to any conditions that might apply, including bonuses received.

We appreciate your patronage, and apologize for any inconvenience caused. We hope to be able to offer to you our services again in the future.

Robin Steele
Manager
Titan Poker
"Become a Legend at Titan Poker"
http://www.titanpoker.com (http://www.titanpoker.com/)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

well, here is what i got today. This sucks! I need a republican who will curb illegal alien crap and let poker be played on the internet.

Why a Republican, how about anyone in Congress with a little common sense and no conservative base to appease?

[broncocalijohn]

because life is more than internet gambling. I am a conservative first and foremost. Poker is a game of skill. Things like lotto is all luck and appeases the poorest of the poor to gamble. This is why i believe if you have one legal, then poker needs to be also. BB, if it was a democrat that gave me the two items i mentioned, he would probably tax my poker winnings at 50%.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

because life is more than internet gambling. I am a conservative first and foremost. Poker is a game of skill. Things like lotto is all luck and appeases the poorest of the poor to gamble. This is why i believe if you have one legal, then poker needs to be also. BB, if it was a democrat that gave me the two items i mentioned, he would probably tax my poker winnings at 50%.
Uh, you need to check out the July vote on this and see who voted for what. "Your party" is responsible for this.

ALL winnings are taxed at the same percentage less losses.

[Garcia Bronco]

Another good thing about this is it will put a stop to college kids that get a credit card and double dip their debt by gambling. Or dead beat degenerate gambling parents that get credit cards in their kid's name and do the same.

[Garcia Bronco]

because life is more than internet gambling. I am a conservative first and foremost. Poker is a game of skill. Things like lotto is all luck and appeases the poorest of the poor to gamble. This is why i believe if you have one legal, then poker needs to be also. BB, if it was a democrat that gave me the two items i mentioned, he would probably tax my poker winnings at 50%.

Poker is not a game of skill...you have absolutely no control over the cards you are dealt. Hence the expression that refers to life and playing the cards you're dealt. The skill is when to bet and not to bet....but that's gambling and psychology...not card playing. Even still...that's luck. I can't speak for other states, but in the state of Virginia...you cannot purchase lottery tickets directly with a credit card. You would have to get a cash advance first at the bank.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Another good thing about this is it will put a stop to college kids that get a credit card and double dip their debt by gambling. Or dead beat degenerate gambling parents that get credit cards in their kid's name and do the same.
There is NOTHING good about the government controlling what you do with YOUR money!!!!!

Here you are advocating government control on adults spending their money, what a shame!!!!

[Garcia Bronco]

There is NOTHING good about the government controlling what you do with YOUR money!!!!!

Here you are advocating government control on adults spending their money, what a shame!!!!

Credit card "money" ain't your money...it's instant debt.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Credit card "money" ain't your money...it's instant debt.
BS!!!! It most certainly is YOUR money, no one but you is responsible for it. And in case you haven't joined the modern world yet many credit cards are directly linked to your checking account so it is EXACTLY your money you're are spending and NOTHING else.

And as I showed earlier, Internet gambling is NOT illegal!

After consultation with numerous legal experts in this field, we want to make you aware of the following:
* Legal
The new U.S. legislation does not in any way attempt to criminalize the act of you playing online poker. By playing online at Full Tilt Poker, you are not breaking any U.S. Federal laws.
Full Tilt Poker

[Broncos4tw]

As an obscure aside to this, I play a game called World of Warcraft (I'm sure some of you do as well). It was released in many other countries as welll. China recently instituted a law that not only WoW, but any online RPG (which can be rather addicting) shall limit the time people can play. If you play for over 3 hours, your stats start deteriorating. So basically, you can only play 3 hours a day. China doesn't believe that these sorts of games are healthy for properous citizens. So they curtail how much you can play.

How's that for limiting?

I wonder if we'll see that sort of silliness in the U.S. anytime in our future.

[broncocalijohn]

Poker is not a game of skill...you have absolutely no control over the cards you are dealt. Hence the expression that refers to life and playing the cards you're dealt. The skill is when to bet and not to bet....but that's gambling and psychology...not card playing. Even still...that's luck. I can't speak for other states, but in the state of Virginia...you cannot purchase lottery tickets directly with a credit card. You would have to get a cash advance first at the bank.


Garcia, poker is skill. The cards u r dealt is luck, what u do with those cards make it skill. There is a reason that there are pros at the game. They know what to do. If i am dealt 2 7, i have the choice to play or pass (fold). Bluffing, betting, playing and folding are all part of skill. No outside force ie. dice is controlling what you do to win. In craps, you already bet then roll the dice that is luck. In poker, your action is after the "luck" or your cards are dealt. Big difference.

[watermock]

Poker is not a game of skill...you have absolutely no control over the cards you are dealt.

That's not true whatsoever. In Hold 'em, you dont have to accept any more cards if you have crap like a 9-2 non suited. NONE. You don't know what your talking about.

Good Lord this is completely astounding. This man doesn't have a clue. A poker plaer weighs his hand and does what you call "gamble". I have seen players with check marks fold.

there is when to bluff, when to check, when to fold and when to raise. If it wasn't a skill game then why are pro plaers making a living off it?

Just lucky? Spin again.

[watermock]

I have lived in Vegas....altho I will never move back there, I know that playing poker isn't "luck".

The draw is maybe 1/3 of the total equation. The reason Texas Holdem' is so popular is the "ALL IN" option.

I would love to buy in, but I'm too much of a neophyte to be more than fodder. It's funny tho...the pros must cringe with every replay how to rule the day.

[Popps]

Poker is not a game of skill...

Wow. I usually agree with your posts, Garcia... but that might be the most erroneous statement I've ever seen posted on this board.

Believe me when I tell you, it is a game of skill. In fact, the fact that luck DOES play a prevalent role makes being a winning player even more challenging. To win consistently in a game where you not only have to overcome other player's ability, but mitigate the chance factor takes an enormous amount of skill and discipline.

[Taco John]

Poker is not a game of skill...you have absolutely no control over the cards you are dealt. Hence the expression that refers to life and playing the cards you're dealt. The skill is when to bet and not to bet....but that's gambling and psychology...not card playing. Even still...that's luck. I can't speak for other states, but in the state of Virginia...you cannot purchase lottery tickets directly with a credit card. You would have to get a cash advance first at the bank.

You're absolutely wrong... How is it that every poker tournament that I go to, the same handful of guys are consistently sitting at the final table, with rivalries and stories about the last time person X and person Z met for one-on-one. Yes, there is luck involved, just like there is luck involved with anything.

Sure, there's gambling in poker. But you can get all the way to the final table knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. And I'm not talking about *guessing* when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. I mean knowing what is on the table, what you have in your hand, what the pot odds are, why the person in front of you bet the way they did, why the person behind you is looking like they want to fold and why everyone wants to move all in on you when you bite your bottom lip.

If poker wasn't a game of skill, then how are guys like Johnny Chan beating the field for multiple bracelets in the WSOP?

[Popps]

If poker wasn't a game of skill, then how are guys like Johnny Chan beating the field for multiple bracelets in the WSOP?

He's made the semi-finals in the show I'm working on right now. (Poker Superstars III) Without giving too much away, you'll get to see a lot of him in the next few weeks.

[Garcia Bronco]

BS!!!! It most certainly is YOUR money, no one but you is responsible for it. And in case you haven't joined the modern world yet many credit cards are directly linked to your checking account so it is EXACTLY your money you're are spending and NOTHING else.

And as I showed earlier, Internet gambling is NOT illegal!


Full Tilt Poker


Linked to your bank account?...that would be a debit card. I am talking about credit cards ie small unsecured loans. It's easy for a college student to get one and basically move the balance into a gambling account online and lose the money. Credit card debit is not good for anyone. It's bad.

Like I said...I don't think it's illegal to bet online, but the Wire Act says it's illegal to take a bet. The AG and JD consider these offshore folks that take bets as criminals...and they can never return to US soil...they risk being arrested.

[Popps]

Yes, there is luck involved, just like there is luck involved with anything.



I love chess, too... but there is no luck involved in chess.... which in some ways makes it EASIER to win consistently.

The fact that luck (or more accurately, statistical variance) is involved in poker forces you to devise plans to not only neutralize that variance (bluffs, proper lay-downs, playing pot odds) but to be resilient when that variance works against you, not just mentally... but from the standpoint of how you've managed your chip-stack in an overall sense.

[Garcia Bronco]

Poker is completely a game of luck, if I get dealt the better cards I'll beat you everytime. The betting aspect of it as I said is the skill, but it's seperate from the actual game. But take the money out and just play the hands of poker and it's all about what you get dealt. Especially in Texas Hold'em...you don't even draw cards. So Chan is a skilled gambler and he's lucky.

[Popps]

Poker is completely a game of luck, if I get dealt the better cards I'll beat you everytime. .

Garcia, that is an absolutely erroneous statement.

It's 100% wrong. It is as factually incorrect as it could possibly be.

Again, my business has put me directly inside this industry. I've mixed hundreds of hours of poker programming this year, I've regularly worked with guys like Howard Ledderer, who have mastered the science of the game.

So, aside from playing poker since I was a kid, I now look at it (zoomed out) all day long, on many days.

Yes, QQ beats JJ. But, I can't tell you how many times I've watched someone with JJ get someone with QQ to lay it down.

Dude, you're just off-base with this one. I understand your point that statistical variance is involved, but you're dumbing it down so far that you miss the big picture.

It is a game where you must MITIGATE a percentage of statistical variance, making it even MORE skillful to be a consistent winner. (And there are consistent winners.) There is NO such thing as a "consistently lucky" person. Math is math, and variance is variance.

[broncocalijohn]

Poker is completely a game of luck, if I get dealt the better cards I'll beat you everytime. The betting aspect of it as I said is the skill, but it's seperate from the actual game. But take the money out and just play the hands of poker and it's all about what you get dealt. Especially in Texas Hold'em...you don't even draw cards. So Chan is a skilled gambler and he's lucky.

We give garcia all these reasons why poker is a game of skill and yet he cant see it. Poker isnt slot machines. You make poker out like this: Deal 5 cards to each player, show cards to everyone, whoever has best hand wins. If that was poker than yes , it is luck. But you forgot one thing, betting, bluffing, folding and calling. That takes skill. This is the mind of the kids going to high school on the short yellow bus. Nothing wil change their little minds. Good grief garcia, hippie music and now this. Try watching a match and you will see that even pocket 3s will beat pocket 10s (all in situation) 18 to 20% of the time. That is luck. Try playing the hand throughout to the river.

[chadta]

ok so heres the deal, as a canadian i cant legally subscribe to directv, and as an american you cant legally put money into an account for betting, so i think we need to pair up all the canadians and americans and do things the old fashion way, trade, you get our tv hooked up, we keep your gambling hooked up. sound fair ?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Linked to your bank account?...that would be a debit card. I am talking about credit cards ie small unsecured loans. It's easy for a college student to get one and basically move the balance into a gambling account online and lose the money. Credit card debit is not good for anyone. It's bad.

Like I said...I don't think it's illegal to bet online, but the Wire Act says it's illegal to take a bet. The AG and JD consider these offshore folks that take bets as criminals...and they can never return to US soil...they risk being arrested.
No it's a credit card, many banks issue them. It also can be used as a debit card but it doesn't matter, a credit card is your money and you're responsible for it. Anyone who thinks government should oversee how you use your credit card is nuts!

It's also easy to go to the local mall and max out your cards on clothes and CDs, according to you the federal government should enact laws to stop you from going to the local mall and using your credit card.

Poker is completely a game of luck, if I get dealt the better cards I'll beat you everytime.
It's now obvious you know nothing about the game.

[Garcia Bronco]

We give garcia all these reasons why poker is a game of skill and yet he cant see it. Poker isnt slot machines. You make poker out like this: Deal 5 cards to each player, show cards to everyone, whoever has best hand wins. If that was poker than yes , it is luck. But you forgot one thing, betting, bluffing, folding and calling. That takes skill. This is the mind of the kids going to high school on the short yellow bus. Nothing wil change their little minds. Good grief garcia, hippie music and now this. Try watching a match and you will see that even pocket 3s will beat pocket 10s (all in situation) 18 to 20% of the time. That is luck. Try playing the hand throughout to the river.

Betting is not card playing...there are two different things going on....gambling and card playing.

[Garcia Bronco]

No it's a credit card, many banks issue them. It also can be used as a debit card but it doesn't matter, a credit card is your money and you're responsible for it. Anyone who thinks government should oversee how you use your credit card is nuts!

It's also easy to go to the local mall and max out your cards on clothes and CDs, according to you the federal government should enact laws to stop you from going to the local mall and using your credit card.


It's now obvious you know nothing about the game.


A credit card is not your money. There is a difference between a debit card and a credit card. There exist individuals that get credit cards and use them to gamble and put themselves into debt. It's not good thing and it never will be. This just doesn't suit your interests so you have a problem with it, but there is good in it. You refuse to acknowledge it.

[Garcia Bronco]

Yes, QQ beats JJ. But, I can't tell you how many times I've watched someone with JJ get someone with QQ to lay it down.

.


Then they got lucky...because the other guy had better cards. See what I mean?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

A credit card is not your money. There is a difference between a debit card and a credit card. There exist individuals that get credit cards and use them to gamble and put themselves into debt. It's not good thing and it never will be. This just doesn't suit your interests so you have a problem with it, but there is good in it. You refuse to acknowledge it.
Are you really this dense? Once you put the card (credit or debit) in the machine or hand it over to the merchant to pay for an item, you have just spent YOUR money. What's your problem here, did you run up a bunch of card debt and now you're railing against it or something?

And once again, I'd Love to get you in a real poker game and take all your money even with your "better" hands.

[broncocalijohn]

Then they got lucky...because the other guy had better cards. See what I mean?

LOL ! No. U think people are showing there cards while they put 5 cards down on the felt? If a king is one of the 5 cards down and u can get the guy with queens to fold, that is skill. God, u cant be this dumb.

[broncocalijohn]

ok so heres the deal, as a canadian i cant legally subscribe to directv, and as an american you cant legally put money into an account for betting, so i think we need to pair up all the canadians and americans and do things the old fashion way, trade, you get our tv hooked up, we keep your gambling hooked up. sound fair ?

Ok, u can use my address for your direct tv and ill use your address for poker. Just make sure you pay your bill online. I had the huge satellite and used my cousins address in colorado so i can get the denver package. If you are in the 75 mile radius and your team doesnt sell out, use someone elses address to get those blackout games. They will never know.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ok, u can use my address for your direct tv and ill use your address for poker. Just make sure you pay your bill online. I had the huge satellite and used my cousins address in colorado so i can get the denver package. If you are in the 75 mile radius and your team doesnt sell out, use someone elses address to get those blackout games. They will never know.
No need to try and get sneaky about it. Just use their HD network locater to find an address that is eligible for all HD channels. I did it since no HD network channels were available in my area. Called them up (HD dept) and told them I moved my dish to my hunting cabin and wallah, I now have all HD network channels.

[Popps]

Then they got lucky...because the other guy had better cards. See what I mean?

Yes, and it is absolutely factually incorrect.

It's just wrong. It doesn't take luck to make someone lay down a better hand. It takes an enormous amount of skill, confidence and mastery of things ranging from body language to mathematical patterns.

You're just off-base with this one, man. Let it go.

[Garcia Bronco]

Are you really this dense? Once you put the card (credit or debit) in the machine or hand it over to the merchant to pay for an item, you have just spent YOUR money. What's your problem here, did you run up a bunch of card debt and now you're railing against it or something?

And once again, I'd Love to get you in a real poker game and take all your money even with your "better" hands.

You can look at it which ever way you like....but debt is never a good thing for anyone...and if this legislation stops people from doing that then it's a positive. Sorry buddy.

As far as playing me in poker....if you beat me...you got lucky

[Garcia Bronco]

Yes, and it is absolutely factually incorrect.

It's just wrong. It doesn't take luck to make someone lay down a better hand. It takes an enormous amount of skill, confidence and mastery of things ranging from body language to mathematical patterns.

You're just off-base with this one, man. Let it go.

It's not skill when you get dealt a pair of aces take three and get a 3rd...it's the luck of the draw...hence the expression. You're talking about the gambling aspect of it and making someone worry about losing money...I'm talking about the card playing aspect of it....though not mutually exclusive in the context of poker...they're not inclusive.

[broncocalijohn]

It's not skill when you get dealt a pair of aces take three and get a 3rd...it's the luck of the draw...hence the expression. You're talking about the gambling aspect of it and making someone worry about losing money...I'm talking about the card playing aspect of it....though not mutually exclusive in the context of poker...they're not inclusive.


Nope, wrong again. Your example misses more to the cards. If you have pocket aces and the flop comes Ace (Dia), Queen (Dia), and 10 (dia), the trips might be lost to a better hand. Someone might flopped the str8 or flush. Knowing that your three aces arent a winner is skill. Bluffing by acting like you can beat trips (3 of a kind) and getting the better hand to fold is skill. It has nothing to do with money involved. Ive played probably 50k hands in free tournaments where you win no money. It is the art of winning that gets me to use my skill, not luck.

[Garcia Bronco]

Nope, wrong again. Your example misses more to the cards. If you have pocket aces and the flop comes Ace (Dia), Queen (Dia), and 10 (dia), the trips might be lost to a better hand. Someone might flopped the str8 or flush. Knowing that your three aces arent a winner is skill. Bluffing by acting like you can beat trips (3 of a kind) and getting the better hand to fold is skill. It has nothing to do with money involved. Ive played probably 50k hands in free tournaments where you win no money. It is the art of winning that gets me to use my skill, not luck.

If you'll notice...I'm talking about 5 card draw....you're talking about Hold'em. But even still know one is in control of the cards that are dealt, making it even more clear that it's a chance game....and more times than not it boils down to luck.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

If you'll notice...I'm talking about 5 card draw....you're talking about Hold'em. But even still know one is in control of the cards that are dealt, making it even more clear that it's a chance game....and more times than not it boils down to luck.
Since it's obvious you have never played holdem for money why do keep saying it's luck when you don't know what you're talking about?

I'd love to get you in a money game!!!! You would soon see that you didn't bring enough money with you (to continue playing).

If you'll notice...I'm talking about 5 card draw.
Uh, that game is rarely played today for money. We're talking about poker (holdem).

[Garcia Bronco]

Since it's obvious you have never played holdem for money why do keep saying it's luck when you don't know what you're talking about?

I'd love to get you in a money game!!!! You would soon see that you didn't bring enough money with you (to continue playing).


Uh, that game is rarely played today for money. We're talking about poker (holdem).

There are many different types of poker....before you go pointing your finger at others claiming what they know and don't...you should take note that there are 3 fingers pointing back at yourself. But like I said...the cards you get are complete luck, and those cards determine the winner in a hand of poker.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

There are many different types of poker....before you go pointing your finger at others claiming what they know and don't...you should take note that there are 3 fingers pointing back at yourself. But like I said...the cards you get are complete luck, and those cards determine the winner in a hand of poker.
LOL
You just don't have a clue because of your ignorance of the game so I understand.

And like I said, it's obvious you never played poker (holdem) for money because if you did you wouldn't have enough money left to pay your IP bill.

[broncocalijohn]

Isnt 5 draw poker where you can hold all cards, some and then determine to fold or call a bet? Seems more than just dumb luck. You need to know which cards to hold. This game is more on the luck side than hold em, but who is playing this under 55 years old? Give it up Garcia, you are toast on this one.

[chadta]

actually not that i agree with garcia BUT, the thread is "the death of online sports betting / gamblingin the us" not "the death of online texas holdum" and the fact that you guys refer to holdum as the only gambling tells me that you just jumped on the bandwagon of the latest fad. still got your pet rocks do ya ?

Dont get me wrong i dont play any cards, except go fish with my kids, and that is totally a game of luck.

[Garcia Bronco]

actually not that i agree with garcia BUT, the thread is "the death of online sports betting / gamblingin the us" not "the death of online texas holdum" and the fact that you guys refer to holdum as the only gambling tells me that you just jumped on the bandwagon of the latest fad. still got your pet rocks do ya ?

Dont get me wrong i dont play any cards, except go fish with my kids, and that is totally a game of luck.


Indeed there is a wide spectrum of poker. I just think there is a difference between gambling/hustling and card playing. The card playing aspect is complete luck much like go fish.

Would people here consider a card game version of "bull****" a skill?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

actually not that i agree with garcia BUT, the thread is "the death of online sports betting / gamblingin the us" not "the death of online texas holdum" and the fact that you guys refer to holdum as the only gambling tells me that you just jumped on the bandwagon of the latest fad. still got your pet rocks do ya ?

Dont get me wrong i dont play any cards, except go fish with my kids, and that is totally a game of luck.
:wave:
Another one who doesn't play but knows what's happening in the holdem world. Do a little research and you'll understand just how BIG holdem has become in the last 5 years.

Online Poker Industry - A Brief History

Online poker has been the fastest growing segment of the online gambling industry over the last year and a half (middle of 2003 to 2005). The internet/online poker boom has been phenomenal, and all trends point to further growth. According to some sources, the online poker industry has grown by a rate of 600% in the last year! Online poker has seen its greatest expansion coming from the United States, but there is huge potential for further online poker growth in Europe and the rest of the world.

Online poker is still relatively new, starting in 1998 but really hitting the online industry big in 2002. The first online poker room was Planet Poker, launched in 1998. Paradise Poker, was the next major player, launched in 1999 and is still one of the leading online poker rooms. Paradise Poker, with their ad campaigns, excellent software, and international audience, really took online poker to the next level. Paradise Poker was the first online poker room I played at, and I still frequent the room. In 2001, the other major online poker rooms appeared - PartyPoker, PokerStars, and UltimateBet.

Online poker exploded in 2003 when poker hit mainstream television in the US. The World Poker Tour debuted on the Travel Channel in March of 2003, and became the highest rating show in Travel Channel's history. The World Series of Poker also received a lot of coverage from ESPN. In 2003, over 800 players participated in the No Limit Hold'em main event at the World Series of Poker, the largest turn out ever, and internet play contributed to this record. That record would soon be broken with the World Series of Poker in 2004, when 2,600 players competed for the grand prize of $5 million. It is estimated that almost half of the entrants qualified to the tournament via online poker satellite tournaments! In 2005, this record would again get demolished with almost 6,000 entrants into the WSOP! Both the 2003 and 2004 World Series of Poker champions were online poker players from PokerStars - Chris Moneymaker and Greg Raymer. These results helped boost and legitimize online poker and online poker players.

Hollywood became enamored with poker and poker's popularity sky-rocketed, and so did online poker. In addition to the World Series of Poker coverage expanding in 2003 and 2004, and the World Poker Tour turning poker into a new national pastime, Celebrity Poker on Bravo, Late Night Poker, Poker SuperStars Tournament, Heads-Up Challenge, and a slew of aired tournaments all hit the airwaves in 2004 and 2005.

Most of the major poker professionals have accepted and adopted the online poker medium. These top professionals now endorse online poker rooms and actually play in the online poker rooms. Chris "Jesus" Ferguson, Howard Lederer, Phil Ivey, Erik Seidel, John Juanda, Phil Gordon, Andy Bloch, and Erick Lindgren endorse Full Tilt Poker, Gus Hansen recently opened his own online poker room with PokerChamps, Phil Hellmuth, Annie Duke, Antonio Esfandiari, and David "Devilfish" Ulliot endorse UltimateBet, Mike Sexton and Shana Hiatt are spokespeople for PartyPoker, Doyle Brunson opened up his own online poker room franchise with Doyle's Room, and the list goes on. HollywoodPoker.com and CelebPoker.com both entered the online poker industry cementing the ties between Hollywood and poker.

Today, driven largely by the US, online poker is close to a $2 billion industry. The online poker leader is PartyPoker, which commands almost half of the entire online poker industry. However, there is plenty of action to be had at many of the online poker rooms, since the influx of new online poker players continues to increase. The number of real money online poker players is increasing by as much as 100,000 each month.
CONT (http://tinyurl.com/p5f7b)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And see if you can figure out these final winning hands Garcia.

-----------------------------------------------------


<table class="wikitable"><tbody><tr><th style="background: rgb(233, 233, 233) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Year</th> <th style="background: rgb(233, 233, 233) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Winner / Winning Hand</th> <th style="background: rgb(233, 233, 233) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Prize (US$)</th> <th style="background: rgb(233, 233, 233) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Entrants</th> <th style="background: rgb(233, 233, 233) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Runner-Up / Losing Hand</th> </tr> <tr> <td>1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Johnny Moss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Moss) ^*</td> <td>n/a</td> <td>7</td> <td>n/a</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1971 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Johnny Moss</td> <td>30,000</td> <td>6</td> <td>Walter "Puggy" Pearson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puggy_Pearson)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1972 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Thomas "Amarillo Slim" Preston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarillo_Slim) K J</td> <td>80,000</td> <td>8</td> <td>Walter "Puggy" Pearson</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1973 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Walter "Puggy" Pearson A♠ 7♠</td> <td>130,000</td> <td>13</td> <td>Johnny Moss K♥ J♠</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Johnny Moss</td> <td>160,000</td> <td>16</td> <td>Crandall Addington (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crandall_Addington&action=edit)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Brian "Sailor" Roberts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailor_Roberts) 9♠ 9♥</td> <td>210,000</td> <td>21</td> <td>Bob Hooks A♣ K♦</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Doyle Brunson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doyle_Brunson) 10♠ 2♠</td> <td>220,000</td> <td>22</td> <td>Jesse Alto A♠ J♦</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1977 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Doyle Brunson 10♠ 2♥</td> <td>340,000</td> <td>34</td> <td>Gary Berland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Berland) 8♥ 5♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1978 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Bobby Baldwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Baldwin) Q♦ Q♣</td> <td>210,000</td> <td>42</td> <td>Crandall Addington 9♦ 9♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1979 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Hal Fowler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Fowler) 7♠ 6♦</td> <td>270,000</td> <td>54</td> <td>Bobby Hoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Hoff) A♣ A♥</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1980 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Stu Ungar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stu_Ungar) 5♠ 4♠</td> <td>385,000</td> <td>73</td> <td>Doyle Brunson A♥ 7♠</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1981 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Stu Ungar A♥ Q♥</td> <td>375,000</td> <td>75</td> <td>Perry Green 10♠ 9♦</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Jack Straus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Straus) A♥ 10♠</td> <td>520,000</td> <td>104</td> <td>Dewey Tomko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewey_Tomko) A♦ 4♦</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1983 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Tom McEvoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_McEvoy) Q♦ Q♠</td> <td>540,000</td> <td>108</td> <td>Rod Peate K♦ J♦</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Jack Keller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Keller) 10♥ 10♠</td> <td>660,000</td> <td>132</td> <td>Byron Wolford 6♥ 4♥</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1985 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Bill Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Smith_%28poker%29) 3♠ 3♥</td> <td>700,000</td> <td>140</td> <td>T. J. Cloutier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Cloutier) A♦ 3♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1986 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Berry Johnston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Johnston) A♠ 10♥</td> <td>570,000</td> <td>141</td> <td>Mike Harthcock A♦ 8♦</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Johnny Chan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Chan_%28poker_player%29) A♠ 9♣</td> <td>625,000</td> <td>152</td> <td>Frank Henderson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Henderson) 4♦ 4♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1988 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Johnny Chan J♣ 9♣</td> <td>700,000</td> <td>167</td> <td>Erik Seidel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Seidel) Q♣ 7♥</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1989 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Phil Hellmuth Jr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Hellmuth) 9♠ 9♣</td> <td>755,000</td> <td>178</td> <td>Johnny Chan A♠ 7♠</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1990 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Mansour Matloubi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansour_Matloubi) 6♥ 6♠</td> <td>895,000</td> <td>194</td> <td>Hans Lund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Lund) 4♦ 4♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Brad Daugherty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Daugherty_%28poker_player%29) K♠ J♠</td> <td>1,000,000</td> <td>215</td> <td>Don Holt 7♥ 3♥</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Hamid Dastmalchi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamid_Dastmalchi) 8♥ 4♣</td> <td>1,000,000</td> <td>201</td> <td>Tom Jacobs J♦ 7♠</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1993 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Jim Bechtel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bechtel) J♣ 6♥</td> <td>1,000,000</td> <td>220</td> <td>Glenn Cozen 7♠ 4♦</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Russ Hamilton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Hamilton) K♠ 8♥</td> <td>1,000,000</td> <td>268</td> <td>Hugh Vincent 8♣ 5♥</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Dan Harrington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Harrington) 9♦ 8♦</td> <td>1,000,000</td> <td>273</td> <td>Howard Goldfarb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Goldfarb) A♥ 7♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Huck Seed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huck_Seed) 9♦ 8♦</td> <td>1,000,000</td> <td>295</td> <td>Bruce Van Horn K♣ 8♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Stu Ungar A♥ 4♣</td> <td>1,000,000</td> <td>312</td> <td>John Strzemp A♠ 8♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Scotty Nguyen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotty_Nguyen) J♦ 9♣</td> <td>1,000,000</td> <td>350</td> <td>Kevin McBride Q♥ 10♥</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Noel Furlong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_Furlong) 5♣ 5♦</td> <td>1,000,000</td> <td>393</td> <td>Alan Goehring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Goehring) 6♥ 6♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Chris Ferguson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Ferguson) A♠ 9♣</td> <td>1,500,000</td> <td>512</td> <td>T. J. Cloutier A♦ Q♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Juan Carlos Mortensen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Mortensen) K♣ Q♣</td> <td>1,500,000</td> <td>613</td> <td>Dewey Tomko A♠ A♥</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Robert Varkonyi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Varkonyi) Q♦ 10♠</td> <td>2,000,000</td> <td>631</td> <td>Julian Gardner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Gardner) J♣ 8♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Chris Moneymaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Moneymaker) 5♦ 4♠</td> <td>2,500,000</td> <td>839</td> <td>Sam Farha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Farha) J♥ 10♦</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Greg Raymer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Raymer) 8♠ 8♦</td> <td>5,000,000</td> <td>2,576</td> <td>David Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Williams_%28card_player%29) A♥ 4♠</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Joe Hachem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hachem) 7♣ 3♠</td> <td>7,500,000</td> <td>5,619</td> <td>Steve Dannenmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Dannenmann) A♦ 3♣</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_World_Series_of_Poker)</td> <td>Jamie Gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gold) Q♠ 9♣</td> <td>12,000,000</td> <td>8,773</td> <td>Paul Wasicka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wasicka) 10♥ 10♠</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Jason in LA]

I've read a few articles, and my question is, does this effect betting on sports games? I keep reading card games, or games of chance. Is this bill going to stop me from betting on football games on sites like Bodog.com? When I first signed up I couldn't use my Visa to deposit money. I was under the impression that it had something to do with this bill. So is Bodog shut down now?

[ak1971]

Bodog is still alive and well. Full Tilt and some of the other big ones arent going anywhere either

You not being able to use your Visa to directly deposit money happened a long time ago and had nothing to do with this bill. Just have to use a 3rd party such as netteller and there arent any problems

[Jason in LA]

Okay, I just coming up to speed with this thing. So it's still legal to bet online, this act is just stopping us from using our banks to deposit the money? So I guess they are just trying to make it harder on us.

So how do these 3rd parites, like netteller, work?

[ak1971]

Pretty much..If it came down to it, I think they will start accepting phone cards and then its all out the window anyway

[broncocalijohn]

Phone cards are used on party poker but they are not accepting any US based accounts if Bush signed it on the 13th. My account at Titan poker was stopped for same reason. I believe it is on wiring so cant they take a check?

[Atwater His Ass]

Indeed there is a wide spectrum of poker. I just think there is a difference between gambling/hustling and card playing. The card playing aspect is complete luck much like go fish.

Would people here consider a card game version of "bull****" a skill?

Beerslug is correct. There is a lot of skill in playing hold'em. Knowing how to bet, when to bet, assessing the flop turn and river cards, what the odds are on any particular hand you may have, how many outs you have and the chances that you will hit those to improve your hand, knowing how to read your opponents, placing a value on your opponents hand based on previous plays and making a determination of wether to bluff, bet, raise, re-raise, or lay down, these are all skills that are a part of the game.

No one is going to argue that luck doesn't play a part. Bad beats happen all the time, but there is definately a lot of skill that is used in poker and to suggest that anyone can sit down to a table with a rudimentary knowledge of poker, get dealt some cards and consistently win is just foolish and shows a complete lack of understanding of the game.