Ha! 7-11 drops CITGO

[BKK]

Look it up yourselves
I hope this snowballs and we kick him to the curb. I dont care how much oil he supplies there is always someone else or our new oil find in the gulf which may be bigger than chavezes or Alaska.

[defenseman]

Look it up yourselves
I hope this snowballs and we kick him to the curb. I dont care how much oil he supplies there is always someone else or our new oil find in the gulf which may be bigger than chavezes or Alaska.

Really. I hope they all get the hint...dman

[Bronx33]

**** you hugo.


http://articles.news.aol.com/business/_a/7-eleven-drops-citgo-as-supplier/20060927121209990009?ncid=NWS00010000000001



DALLAS (Sept. 27) - 7-Eleven Inc. is dropping Venezuela-backed Citgo as its gasoline supplier after more than 20 years as part of a previously announced plan by the convenience store operator to launch its own brand of fuel.

7-Eleven officials said Wednesday that the company's decision was partly motivated by politics.

Citgo Petroleum Corp. is a Houston-based subsidiary of Venezuela's state-run oil company and 7-Eleven is worried that anti-American comments made by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez might prompt motorists to fill-up elsewhere.

Chavez has called President George W. Bush the devil and an alcoholic. The U.S. government has warned that Chavez is a destabilizing force in Latin America.

"Regardless of politics, we sympathize with many Americans' concern over derogatory comments about our country and its leadership recently made by Venezuela's president," said 7-Eleven spokesman Margaret Chabris.

"Certainly Chavez's position and statements over the past year or so didn't tempt us to stay with Citgo," she added.

Instead, 7-Eleven, which sells gasoline at 2,100 of its 5,300 U.S. stores, will now purchase fuel from several distributors, including Tower Energy Group of Torrance, Calif., Sinclair Oil of Salt Lake City, and Houston-based Frontier Oil Corp.

More Coverage


· Chavez Calls Bush "Devil"
· Find Cheap Gas
· What Gas Stations Won't Tell You
· Gas-Saving Tips

En Español: La Noticia




Chabris said 7-Eleven's decision to sell its own brand was based on many factors, including Citgo's decision this summer to stop supplying stations in parts of Texas and other states to focus on retailers closer to its refineries in Corpus Christi, Lake Charles, La., and Lemont, Ill.

But 7-Eleven had been considering creating its own brand of fuel since at least early last year, and some analysts suggested 7-Eleven may be hyping the political angle somewhat as a way to curry favor with U.S. consumers.

"This has nothing to do with Chavez," said Oil Price Information Service director Tom Kloza. "They (7-Eleven) just didn't want to be tied to one supplier."

Kloza said all 7-Eleven did was seek out suppliers who could sell it the cheapest fuel and "that was not Citgo."

Citgo officials did not immediately return calls for comment.

In July, Citgo decided to stop distributing gasoline to 1,800 independently owned U.S. stations because it was a lackluster segment of its business.

In order to meet service contracts at 13,100 Citgo-branded stations across the U.S., Citgo had to purchase 130,000 barrels a day from third parties - a less profitable business model than selling gasoline directly from its refineries.

09/27/06 12:10 EDT

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

[fido]

go 7-11

[Spider]

who gives a damn ? Didnt buy 7-11 before ,wont buy it now ............. But they drop Citgo , and probably buy from some middle east country that wants to bomb us ........... and we have people here cheering ......

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Look it up yourselves
I hope this snowballs and we kick him to the curb. I dont care how much oil he supplies there is always someone else or our new oil find in the gulf which may be bigger than chavezes or Alaska.
Uh, there is NO oil to replace any disruptions and like Spider said now they'll probably be using terrorist oil in part.

[Hotrod]

Uh, there is NO oil to replace any disruptions and like Spider said now they'll probably be using terrorist oil in part.

Two things.

1. Spider & you are correct

2. Its too bad thou that I cant believe the actions they are trying to take were actually for the good of America. Oh hell no it was about PR.....If I thought for a second it was a pure motive I'd start buying all my gas from them....well if we had a 7/11 here...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Two things.

1. Spider & you are correct

2. Its too bad thou that I cant believe the actions they are trying to take were actually for the good of America. Oh hell no it was about PR.....If I thought for a second it was a pure motive I'd start buying all my gas from them....well if we had a 7/11 here...
:giggle:
Maybe that's just what you mountain yahoos need there in Gunnison, is a local 7-11 run by some good ole ME boys to liven up the town. :~ohyah!:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Uh, there is NO oil to replace any disruptions and like Spider said now they'll probably be using terrorist oil in part.

Yep.

Gotta chuckle at the wingers who celebrate this kind of thing.

Chavez refuses to play ball with Bush's oil buddies, so he's public enemy #1.

If he won't play my way, I'll just pick up my toys and go home. Ha!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Look it up yourselves
I hope this snowballs and we kick him to the curb. I dont care how much oil he supplies there is always someone else or our new oil find in the gulf which may be bigger than chavezes or Alaska.
OK, I looked it up (maybe you should have too)....

The decision to drop Citgo, a subsidiary of Venezuelan national oil company PDVSA, was made well before the speech, she said, and based on 7-Eleven's desire to sell its own branded gasoline.

"People are making it out to be more than it is," Chabris said.

A source close to the talks said Citgo, which supplies 2,100 7-Eleven locations, was told two months ago of the company's decision. Citgo, which is narrowing its U.S. operations, had offered to renew the contract by supplying 7-Eleven stores in Texas and Florida, but not in other states it had previously served, the source said.

Venezuelan Energy and Petroleum Minister Rafael Ramirez, who also serves as PDVSA's president, confirmed that the move was just a business decision.

"No, no, no, no. We made our decisions with respect to some gas stations a long time ago," Ramirez told reporters in Caracas in response to a question about conflict between Citgo and 7-Eleven. "There is no conflict there."
http://tinyurl.com/khgdd

[Spider]

Thier own Brand ?
more like they will buy from opec ( preferably Canada) and claim it as thier Brand .....

[El Minion]

Look it up yourselves
I hope this snowballs and we kick him to the curb. I dont care how much oil he supplies there is always someone else or our new oil find in the gulf which may be bigger than chavezes or Alaska.

Wonder if christian republicans will kick Bush backer Falwell to the cirb for this equally egregious statement (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/26/falwell-devil-response/):

----------------------
<h2 class="title">Falwell Refuses To Apologize For Lucifer Attack, Swears To Repeat It ‘Over And Over Again’</h2>

<script type="text/javascript" src="/wp-content/plugins/swfobject.js"></script>
<p>Appearing on MSNBC today, Rev. Jerry Falwell responded to criticism of his recent attack <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-falwell24sep24,0,4255550.story?coll=la-home-headlines">comparing Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) to Lucifer</a>. Asked whether his remarks were disrespectful, Falwell said, “I do not.” MSNBC’s anchor then asked, “So I take this to mean that will you not be apologizing to Hillary Clinton?” Falwell answered, “No, I will say it over and over again.” Falwell said it was clear his comments were tongue-in-cheek “because there’s no way that Lucifer’s going to run [for president].” Watch it:</p>
<div style="text-align: center;"> <div id="flvfalwellclinton320240">
<img src="http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/flv/2006/09/falwellclinton.320.240.jpg" width="320" height="240" title="To watch this clip, install Flash Player and enable JavaScript in your browser" alt="Screenshot" />
</div>
<script type="text/javascript">
var flvfalwellclinton320240 = new SWFObject('/wp-content/plugins/flvplayer.swf?file=http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/flv/2006/09/falwellclinton.320.240.flv&amp;autoStart=false', 'em-flvfalwellclinton320240', '320', '260', '6', '#ffffff');
flvfalwellclinton320240.addParam('quality', 'high');
flvfalwellclinton320240.addParam('wmode', 'transparent');
flvfalwellclinton320240.write('flvfalwellclinton32 0240');
</script></div>
<p><a href="http://digg.com/political_opinion/Falwell_Refuses_To_Apologize_For_Lucifer_Attack_Vi deo">Digg it!</a></p>
<p>Full transcript:
</p>
<blockquote><p>MSNBC: Any comparison to the devil, especially coming on the heels — of course, your comments are being compared to those of Hugo Chavez. He is the president of Venezuela, and I’m sure you saw it last week –</p>
<p>FALWELL: I did indeed.</p>
<p>MSNBC: — when he was addressing the U.N. Assembly, he called President Bush the devil in his speech. That made a lot of people very, very angry. </p>
<p>FALWELL: It made me angry too.</p>
<p>MSNBC: Is there any reason people should be are angry at you for what you said about Senator Clinton?</p>
<p>FALWELL: What I said about Senator Clinton is a true fact. She will energize religious conservatives about all others. Nobody who with a fair mind, open mind heard what you just played did not know that I was speaking tongue in cheek about Lucifer running because there’s no way that Lucifer’s going to run.</p>
<p>…</p>
<p>MSNBC: Do you believe you were disrespectful? </p>
<p>FALWELL: I do not.<br />
…<br />
MSNBC: Do I take this to mean that you’re not going to be apologizing to Senator Clinton?</p>
<p>FALWELL: No, I’ll be saying it over and over again.</p></blockquote>
</div>

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Falwell Refuses To Apologize For Lucifer Attack, Swears To Repeat It ‘Over And Over Again

Yep - the right-wing peanut gallery has been (not surprisingly) mum about this, huh?

[baja]

I am sure China willbe more than happy to pick up the shuned oil.

Before this is all over we will be making nice to leaders like Chavez because the demand will be greater than the supply very soon.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Not sure how falwell's comments apply to this but whatever.

I believe his point was that, according to the right-wingers, Chavez's "devil" comment is unacceptable, but it's perfectly OK for Falwell to say the same thing about Clinton.

Sort of a double standard there.

[baja]

http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/flv/2006/09/falwellclinton.320.240.jpg

is there anyone out there that thinks this bloated pig faced self indulgent ego manic has any inkling what God is?

To me it looks like satan has his hooks deep into this overstuffed food addicted cream pull,That is if there is a enity that is Satan which I do not believe.

I will bet his shiit really really stinks

[broncocalijohn]

I am sure China willbe more than happy to pick up the shuned oil.

Before this is all over we will be making nice to leaders like Chavez because the demand will be greater than the supply very soon.

Well, right now the price is droping big time. Seems it will hurt Chavez more when the price per barrel keeps droping. I just hope 7 11 has another distributor to replace Hugo's oil.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/flv/2006/09/falwellclinton.320.240.jpg

is there anyone out there that thinks this bloated pig faced self indulgent ego manic has any inkling what God is?

Alarmingly, yes, there is.

The same fringe-right demographic (read: Bush's base) who believe Jesus loves them and shares their hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

To me it looks like satan has his hooks deep into this overstuffed food addicted cream pull...

:giggle: :rofl: :thumbs: ^5


I will bet his shiit really really stinks

Some serious sulfur and brimstone aroma, no doubt. :TJnPopps:

[Spider]

Falwel and his ilk were the first to blame 9-11 on America , Falwel has always been an Idiot , and probably one of the main driving force to keep people away from Christianity ..................

[alkemical]

the antichrist will pervert and corrupt the teachings of the church. I always thought an antipope would be a fingertip of satan.

[RaiderH8r]

Don't like Falwell, never have. He's a douche bag.

Also, watching Chavez's speech I was just waiting for him to start pounding his shoe on the podium....or am I the only one that remembers Khruschev?

[defenseman]

I don't think hillary is lucifer, that's ridiculous. Is she devious? Absolutely. Is she untrustworthy? Like a chameleon she changes her shade to meet the required response. But, lucifer? No, Falwell is wrong on that one...dman

[mhgaffney]

This thread deserves the tempest in a tea pot award.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I don't think hillary is lucifer, that's ridiculous. Is she devious? Absolutely. Is she untrustworthy? Like a chameleon she changes her shade to meet the required response. But, lucifer? No, Falwell is wrong on that one...dman
I'm interested in your facts you can point to to back these statements up?

[Hotrod]

I'm interested in your facts you can point to to back these statements up?

Does one need facts when making a personal opinon? I think shes pure evil just like all career polititians.

[El Minion]

Well for one it's another countries leader making that comment about our "leader" ( I believe he made a similar comment outside of the UN in Harlem but I may be mistaken), and a religious schmuck (US citizen I believe) making a comment about a US rep. IMO there is a difference, albiet both should have their mouths stapled shut along with Bush/Clinton.

Pretty sure most people, outside the US especially, would agree with both BTW.

Tell it to the Pope. You and many Americans may see the difference but many may not or care not because it is not as simple as he/she is just some citizen or talking head, which we all know that Falwell is not just some dude. Religious and political leaders using reckless and inflammatory religious verbiage should be rebuked. How would/does America view leading Muslim clerics who demonize, say, secular/Muslim Arabs or Arab nations for Quranic reasons? They wouldn't (or shouldn't) get very far with us, that's the point.

[bronco militia]

Instead, 7-Eleven, which sells gasoline at 2,100 of its 5,300 U.S. stores, will now purchase fuel from several distributors, including Tower Energy Group of Torrance, Calif., Sinclair Oil of Salt Lake City, and Houston-based Frontier Oil Corp.

any one know if these are any better?

[defenseman]

Does one need facts when making a personal opinon? I think shes pure evil just like all career polititians.

Thank you. Saved me the time...dman

[alkemical]

Instead, 7-Eleven, which sells gasoline at 2,100 of its 5,300 U.S. stores, will now purchase fuel from several distributors, including Tower Energy Group of Torrance, Calif., Sinclair Oil of Salt Lake City, and Houston-based Frontier Oil Corp.

any one know if these are any better?



http://www.towermart.com/info.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Oil


http://www.frontieroil.com/

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Thank you. Saved me the time...dman
That's what I figured, no facts, reference or anything to back up your statements. So in the future make sure to point out what you're posting is nothing more than your uninformed opinion. If you think that I might be wrong and your opinion isn't so uninformed go ahead and post some facts/links to show that what you're throwing out here is the truth.

[TailgateNut]

I'm interested in your facts you can point to to back these statements up?


Dman hates her because she's a Clinton, and WJC **** in his soup while he was blowing bubbles in the navy!

[bendog]

Well, like her or not, she's hardly a career politician. LOL She's a second term senator. I just don't know what she really believes in. 2000 was a hard election. I didn't really know what to expect of either bushii or gore, so I basically flipped a coin. Now, of course, it's easy to see that Gore is a true believer on global warming, and pretty much a left leaning moderate on everything else.

And, I don't mind career pols. Trent Lott is one of the poorest guys in the senate ... yeah before katrina blew his house away, before flooding it, he had prolly two mill, but the insurance ain't paying for his house. Wellstone was a decent guy too, for a Dem (-: Those are just two off my head. I'd certainly rather have either than bushii. Regardless of politics, at least give me competence. LOL

[Hotrod]

Well, like her or not, she's hardly a career politician. LOL She's a second term senator. I just don't know what she really believes in. 2000 was a hard election. I didn't really know what to expect of either bushii or gore, so I basically flipped a coin. Now, of course, it's easy to see that Gore is a true believer on global warming, and pretty much a left leaning moderate on everything else.

And, I don't mind career pols. Trent Lott is one of the poorest guys in the senate ... yeah before katrina blew his house away, before flooding it, he had prolly two mill, but the insurance ain't paying for his house. Wellstone was a decent guy too, for a Dem (-: Those are just two off my head. I'd certainly rather have either than bushii. Regardless of politics, at least give me competence. LOL

I disagree 100% he/she is very much a career politician. Shes a second term senator and 2 time first lady. IMO thats a pretty fair portion of her adult life has be owned/paid for by special interest groups etc...Thats the problem right there the longer their in the game the more they are owned. The younger/newer ones come to work with ideas/morals then they realize inorder to get anything done they have to sell out. Damn I hate the bye week ;D

[defenseman]

That's what I figured, no facts, reference or anything to back up your statements. So in the future make sure to point out what you're posting is nothing more than your uninformed opinion. If you think that I might be wrong and your opinion isn't so uninformed go ahead and post some facts/links to show that what you're throwing out here is the truth.

Just my opinion beerslug. Relax, take a chill pill. You have your opinion too, and have chosen to attack me, in essence because I have an opinion. I would think, that instead of attacking me because I have a negative opinion of hillary, you would voice your opinion of her, and then decide to support or not support your opinion with whatever data you have. But, you've opted otherwise. In any case, you've got your opinion. Use it however you wish.....dman

*Just a data point for ya, opinion is neither true or untrue. It is what it is.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Just my opinion beerslug. Relax, take a chill pill. You have your opinion too, and have chosen to attack me, in essence because I have an opinion. I would think, that instead of attacking me because I have a negative opinion of hillary, you would voice your opinion of her, and then decide to support or not support your opinion with whatever data you have. But, you've opted otherwise. In any case, you've got your opinion. Use it however you wish.....dman

*Just a data point for ya, opinion is neither true or untrue. It is what it is.
You made an outright statement of "she changes policy depending on her environment" and is not "trustworthy". I asked for ANY fact/references backing up your statements. Do you have any?

[alkemical]

I disagree 100% he/she is very much a career politician. Shes a second term senator and 2 time first lady. IMO thats a pretty fair portion of her adult life has be owned/paid for by special interest groups etc...Thats the problem right there the longer their in the game the more they are owned. The younger/newer ones come to work with ideas/morals then they realize inorder to get anything done they have to sell out. Damn I hate the bye week ;D

Yeah because being married to a politican MAKES you a politician.

I guess laura bush is in this category somewhat, no?

[Bronx33]

Fact is 7-11 was a HUGE contract and a serious dent in hugos wallet plus a message was attached, does he care? (i don't know) i really don't care anyhow but it does tell him something which is fine with me. So 7-11 gets it's gas from another ME supplier all i know is it's not from Mr hugo.

[alkemical]

Fact is 7-11 was a HUGE contract and a serious dent in hugos wallet plus a message was attached, does he care? (i don't know) i really don't care anyhow but it does tell him something which is fine with me. So 7-11 gets it's gas from another ME supplier all i know is it's not from Mr hugo.



in someways that position has got us in this position.....

[Bronx33]

in someways that position has got us in this position.....



Nothing and i mean nothing changes the fact that hugo shook hands with AM knowing full well he is a loose cannon and will no doubt cause some serious damage in the future.(who in their right mind says they want to wipe a country off the map) that's just freaking madness on a epic scale for hugo to make pals with him. **** HUGO

[alkemical]

Fact is 7-11 was a HUGE contract and a serious dent in hugos wallet plus a message was attached, does he care? (i don't know) i really don't care anyhow but it does tell him something which is fine with me. So 7-11 gets it's gas from another ME supplier all i know is it's not from Mr hugo.




Nothing and i mean nothing changes the fact that hugo shook hands with AM knowing full well he is a loose cannon and will no doubt cause some serious damage in the future.(who in their right mind says they want to wipe a country off the map) that's just freaking madness on a epic scale for hugo to make pals with him. **** HUGO



Re-read both your posts and realize that you don't want chavez cuz he's friends with iran - but you don't care that the saudi's, etc promote this anyway - so really - 'go straight long enough end up where you were'

[Bronx33]

Re-read both your posts and realize that you don't want chavez cuz he's friends with iran - but you don't care that the saudi's, etc promote this anyway - so really - 'go straight long enough end up where you were'


Naw i really wish we would cut the ME out completely but with demand the way it is that will never be the case, alternative fuels and better modes of transportation. Fact is greed on our own turf prevents us from alternative fuels the major oil companies call the shots to keep folks on the oil. I guess i haven't seen a saudi oil baron go public and run his piehole.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Does one need facts when making a personal opinon?

Um, yeah.

When you accuse someone of being dishonest or evil, usually it's incumbent on you to at least provide some examples.

Otherwise your opinion doesn't mean a whole lot.

[defenseman]

Um, yeah.

When you accuse someone of being dishonest or evil, usually it's incumbent on you to at least provide some examples.

Otherwise your opinion doesn't mean a whole lot.

Your take is a matter of opinion....:rofl:...relax, just having a little fun..dman

[epicSocialism4tw]

Congratulations 7-11. This is the first political statement made by a gas distributor that shows where its' loyalties lie.

Trying to turn this into a "Bush" issue isnt very bright. Get over yourself and buy some 7-11 gas.

[defenseman]

Congratulations 7-11. This is the first political statement made by a gas distributor that shows where its' loyalties lie.

Trying to turn this into a "Bush" issue isnt very bright. Get over yourself and buy some 7-11 gas.

It's not a Bush or Clinton, or dem/repub issue at all. It's a vendor standing up and being counted, that's about it. Agreed...dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Congratulations 7-11. This is the first political statement made by a gas distributor that shows where its' loyalties lie.

Trying to turn this into a "Bush" issue isnt very bright. Get over yourself and buy some 7-11 gas.
Perhaps you should have read the information I posted showing this had NOTHING to do with any "political" statement and was made months ago.

Not reading it points to someone else not being "very bright".

It's not a Bush or Clinton, or dem/repub issue at all. It's a vendor standing up and being counted, that's about it. Agreed...dman
The same goes for you, read above.

[BKK]

The bottom line is that Hugo has stated that he wants to see the US fall, and any SOB that agrees with his point of view or takes favors from him is with him, and against the US, you cant have it both ways and there are no grey areas. Sorry.

[defenseman]

Perhaps you should have read the information I posted showing this had NOTHING to do with any "political" statement and was made months ago.

Not reading it points to someone else not being "very bright".


The same goes for you, read above.

Sorry, didn't read that post. But just acknowledged what angry llama said. Had nothing to do with you or anyone else. appeared as a statement of fact to me, if you took it out of context, I apologize. Unintentional finger pointing on my part was not intended when I endorsed his take...dman

[Rohirrim]

The bottom line is that Hugo has stated that he wants to see the US fall, and any SOB that agrees with his point of view or takes favors from him is with him, and against the US, you cant have it both ways and there are no grey areas. Sorry.

Javol mein herr!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The bottom line is that Hugo has stated that he wants to see the US fall, and any SOB that agrees with his point of view or takes favors from him is with him, and against the US, you cant have it both ways and there are no grey areas. Sorry.
Really, when did he say that?

[baja]

The bottom line is that Hugo has stated that he wants to see the US fall, and any SOB that agrees with his point of view or takes favors from him is with him, and against the US, you cant have it both ways and there are no grey areas. Sorry.

Sad that you and George Bush fail to understand it is precisely that "Either you are with us or you are against us" attitude that alarms other nations to take steps to undermine the unopposed power that the US wields.

Don't you see how scary this is to all the other nations of the world?

We attacked a nation that had done nothing to warrant that attack and the rest of the world knew it than and sure as hell knows it now. They see a nation where it's people don't seen to mind being lied to as evidenced by Bush's reelection assuming it was ligit.

In short the US under Bush must scare the hell out of the rest of the world.

Sadly you likely think that is a good thing.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Sad that you and George Bush fail to understand it is precisely that "Either you are with us or you are against us" attitude that alarms other nations to take steps to undermine the unopposed power that the US wields.

Don't you see how scary this is to all the other nations of the world?

We attacked a nation that had done nothing to warrant that attack and the rest of the world knew it than and sure as hell knows it now. They see a nation where it's people don't seen to mind being lied to as evidenced by Bush's reelection assuming it was ligit.

In short the US under Bush must scare the hell out of the rest of the world.

Sadly you likely think that is a good thing.

Hammer, nail, head. :thumbsup:

It's like Dumbya can't stop poking hornets' nests with sticks - and then the pinhead's knuckle dragging supporters just keep blaming the hornets for responding.

[Stuck In Texas]

It looks like others are choosing sides too.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003281424_webalaskachavez29.html

[mhgaffney]

If you agree that the greatest threat to the world today is the neo cons' agenda for a world wide domination -- a pax Americana -- enforced by the US military -- then Chavez is certainly on point.

In fact, Chavez is probably the best friend genuine American patriots ever had -- ordinary citizens who still believe in that old fashioned document known as the US Constitution.

In case you haven't noticed, it's now largely defunct. Our dictatorial leader Bush brandishes nukes as a divine right, defends torture as normal, and threatens retaliation (bombs away) against anyone who gets out of line.

With leaders like this who needs enemies.

[Stuck In Texas]

If you agree that the greatest threat to the world today is the neo cons' agenda for a world wide domination -- a pax Americana -- enforced by the US military -- then Chavez is certainly on point.

In fact, Chavez is probably the best friend genuine American patriots ever had -- ordinary citizens who still believe in that old fashioned document known as the US Constitution.

In case you haven't noticed, it's now largely defunct. Our dictatorial leader Bush brandishes nukes as a divine right, defends torture as normal, and threatens retaliation (bombs away) against anyone who gets out of line.

With leaders like this who needs enemies.

I'm going to have to disagree with this post. In my opinion, any guy who holds Cuba up as a role model is no friend to Americans. I have seen my share of dictators in my day, and we are nowhere near a dictatorship.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm going to have to disagree with this post. In my opinion, any guy who holds Cuba up as a role model is no friend to Americans. I have seen my share of dictators in my day, and we are nowhere near a dictatorship.

We're a lot nearer than the framers of the Constitution ever imagined.

We have a unitary executive and a rubber stamp Congress.

We have a *president who calls himself "the decider" and acts as though he were above the laws of the land.

[Stuck In Texas]

We're a lot nearer than the framers of the Constitution ever imagined.

We have a unitary executive and a rubber stamp Congress.

We have a *president who calls himself "the decider" and acts as though he were above the laws of the land.

Yes, but we also have a president who will leave power in 2 years when his tenure is up. I'm not sure how he thinks he's above the law. He still has limited power.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yes, but we also have a president who will leave power in 2 years when his tenure is up.

It's not just the man - it's the precedent he's setting.


I'm not sure how he thinks he's above the law. He still has limited power.

His illegal, warrantless wiretaps on American citizens and his disregard for the Geneva Conventions are two of the most obvious examples.

[Stuck In Texas]

It's not just the man - it's the precedent he's setting.



His illegal, warrantless wiretaps on American citizens and his disregard for the Geneva Conventions are two of the most obvious examples.

I suspect we haven't heard the end of this. The only person who has ruled it illegal is a judge whom, even those that agree with her, believe she used questionable legal arguments. I think this is going to the Supreme Court.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I suspect we haven't heard the end of this. The only person who has ruled it illegal is a judge whom, even those that agree with her, believe she used questionable legal arguments. I think this is going to the Supreme Court.

Even if the judge in question used "questionable" legal arguments, the fact that Bush broke the law remains the same.

[Stuck In Texas]

Even if the judge in question used "questionable" legal arguments, the fact that Bush broke the law remains the same.

Where is the proof? I suspect that none of us knows the details of the program.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Where is the proof? I suspect that none of us knows the details of the program.

The 'proof' is that Bush circumvented FISA.

He even admitted it (as if to say, "yeah, I broke the law - what are you going to do about it?")

[clarker]

The 'proof' is that Bush circumvented FISA.

He even admitted it (as if to say, "yeah, I broke the law - what are you going to do about it?")I have to side with you on this one. Bush flat out broke the law with those taps.

I think the program itself has to be in place, but not with out getting warrents. The argument that things happen at the spear of the moment is a joke because they have a 2-3 day grace period to get the warrents after the fact and he refused to even do that.

Impeachment Artical I.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Why on earth did this turn into a Bush-bashing thread? Can there be another topic of discussion?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I have to side with you on this one. Bush flat out broke the law with those taps.

I think the program itself has to be in place, but not with out getting warrents. The argument that things happen at the spear of the moment is a joke because they have a 2-3 day grace period to get the warrents after the fact and he refused to even do that.

Impeachment Artical I.

I think the majority of Americans - regardless of party - would agree with you.

Everyone wants the president to have the powers he needs to protect the country - they just don't want him to act without oversight (as the framers intended.)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Why on earth did this turn into a Bush-bashing thread?

Because people were done discussing the original topic?

Because Bush was part of the story, i.e., the subject of Chavez's remarks?

I believe it's called a "segue."

Can there be another topic of discussion?

Damn that evil, Godless guy with the gun at your temple who's keeping you from discussing some other topic and/or forcing you to read this thread.

And on a political discussion forum, no less!?

Oh, the humanity.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Because people were done discussing the original topic?

Because Bush was part of the story, i.e., the subject of Chavez's remarks?

I believe it's called a "segue."



Damn that evil, Godless guy with the gun at your temple who's keeping you from discussing some other topic and/or forcing you to read this thread.

And on a political discussion forum, no less!?

Oh, the humanity.

Nah, I was just addressing the typical MO that you display daily on this forum.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Nah, I was just addressing the typical MO that you display daily on this forum.

No.

You were just engaing in the same "don't criticize Bush" whining that is your daily MO here.

[Stuck In Texas]

The 'proof' is that Bush circumvented FISA.

He even admitted it (as if to say, "yeah, I broke the law - what are you going to do about it?")

Hmm. I must have missed where he admitted it. I don't understand all of the rules of FISA. Are you sure he broke the law? Didn't it come out that he had briefed members of congress on the program and they (both sides of the aisle) didn't have a problem with it until it was made public?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Hmm. I must have missed where he admitted it. I don't understand all of the rules of FISA. Are you sure he broke the law?


Yes, you must have missed it. This was discussed at length here on this forum.


Didn't it come out that he had briefed members of congress on the program and they (both sides of the aisle) didn't have a problem with it until it was made public?

Link?

Even if this were true, it wouldn't make it any less illegal.

[epicSocialism4tw]

No.

You were just engaing in the same "don't criticize Bush" whining that is your daily MO here.

Here you go with that "Bushbot" garbage again. It behooves you to do a little research before you put labels on people. You would find a track record of a political orientation very different from the one you try to superimpose on myself and many of the others on this site that dont lap up the donkeymilk that you so readily chug.

[Stuck In Texas]

Yes, you must have missed it. This was discussed at length here on this forum.



Link?

Even if this were true, it wouldn't make it any less illegal.

And discussing it on a message board is proof of illegality?

Because you asked:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/01/20060122.html
and because that link is obviously pro-president,
here's one that's more from what I think is your point of view:
http://www.antiwar.com/ips/fisher.php?articleid=8291

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And discussing it on a message board is proof of illegality?

No - I meant that the issue was discussed and relevant articles and links were posted. I guess I should've been more specific.

Because you asked:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/01/20060122.html
and because that link is obviously pro-president,
here's one that's more from what I think is your point of view:
http://www.antiwar.com/ips/fisher.php?articleid=8291

What specific passage(s) support your contention that members of Congress knew about Bush's activities and "didn"t have a problem" with them?

And, more important, if true, how would this fact make those activities any less illegal?

[Rigs11]

Here's why Chávez is so mad
BY JESS HUNTER-BOWMAN
www.witnessforpeace.org

While politicians from across the political spectrum and editorial pages throughout the United States have been taking their shots at Venezuela's Hugo Chávez since his now infamous ''devil'' comment at the United Nations, no one is asking what made him so mad. Seats are getting crowded on the anti-Chávez bandwagon as retailer 7-Eleven announced it will drop Venezuelan-owned Citgo gasoline from its 2,100 service stations in the United States in protest and Florida lawmaker Rep. Adam Hasner has called for Citgo to be kicked off of the state's turnpike.

But perhaps we should try to understand why so many people around the globe are upset with the United States rather than simply dismiss Chávez as a despot or off his rocker. A quick glance at recent U.S. policy and posture toward Venezuela gives us some clues as to why people in Venezuela are getting set to reelect a president who calls the United States an empire.

U.S. role in 2002 coup

A good place to start is the short-lived 2002 coup in Venezuela. While the United States publicly denies any role in the coup, numerous published reports show that at the very least the United States had a cozy relationship with many of the opposition figures who allegedly planned the coup and immediately welcomed the overthrow of the democratically elected president.

The U.S. government, through the National Endowment for Democracy and ominously named Office of Transition Initiatives, has funneled millions of dollars to some of the most radical elements of domestic opposition in Venezuela, including political parties. Do you think President Bush and Karl Rove would be upset if the tables were turned and Chávez were funding a 527 group supporting the Democrats in the mid-term elections?

Few would praise Chávez for his diplomacy. But while Chávez's gaffe got nonstop play in the U.S. media, the same media pay little attention as Washington pulls no punches in its rhetoric against the Venezuelan president. In February Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld equated Chávez to Hitler. ''We've got Chávez in Venezuela with a lot of oil money,'' said Rumsfeld. ``He's a person who was elected legally, just as Adolf Hitler was elected legally.''

The 2006 National Security Strategy refers to Chávez as ''a demagogue awash in oil money'' who is undermining democracy and seeking to destabilize the region.

At the same time, the United States is stepping up its spying efforts in Venezuela. In August the director of national intelligence, John Negroponte, announced the creation of a new ''mission manager'' position for Venezuela and Cuba. According to the State Department, the only other countries in the world with ''mission managers'' based out of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence are Iran and North Korea. Unconfirmed reports among security analysts suggest a recent 50 percent increase in CIA agents operating in Venezuela.

Let Venezuelans decide

Clearly the situation is not all rosy in Venezuela. Chávez recently admitted that the military was responsible for the killing of six miners in a clash in southern Venezuela. Yet he immediately called for a full investigation and punishment for those found responsible. ''This government isn't covering up, nor will it cover up any abuse,'' Chávez said.

At the same time, he has bolstered his popularity by using oil revenue -- long funneled into the pockets of bureaucrats -- to pay for arguably the most comprehensive social programs in South America.

Before making snap judgments based on Chávez's fiery rhetoric, we should ask the question: Why is Chávez so mad? The answer may be unsavory. Welcoming an unconstitutional coup, supporting radical domestic opposition and ramping up espionage would make any sane president upset.

Many in the United States and Venezuela have called on the U.S. Congress and the Bush administration to let the Venezuelan people decide their fate, without interference from Washington. When Venezuelans go to the polls on Dec. 3, they are likely to reelect Chávez. It is up to Venezuelans, and Venezuelans alone, to decide who leads their country, despite his strong words against Bush.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/15672664.htm