Ted Turner: Iraq, History's Dumbest War

[Rohirrim]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/20/turner.reut/index.html

Ha! He's right, of course.

[Tom H.]

I don't even like Ted but I agree that it's a dumb war.

[ClevelandBronco]

Ted Turner: History's dumbest billionaire.

[Crushaholic]

I didn't think it was a "war". That's what people on the left have been telling me...:kiddingme

Anyway, I still maintain we needed to go there. Do we have the right number of troops there to win the war? I don't know...

[Rohirrim]

I'm not wild about Ted either. But IMO he's right. This was just plumb stupid. I wish Ted would go back to sailboat racing. He could get us back the America's Cup.

C'mon, Ted. Let's get Courageous out of mothballs and win back the cup!

[bendog]

I was for offing Saddam, but my first choice was keeping the baath and finding a new Jefe, who'd go back to Saddam's old job of balancing off the shiaa, and my second choice was getting a real coalition via the UN with arabs/muslims in it, and figuriing it'd take 20 years of occupation, and my third choice was keeping the food for oil, and my last choice was bushii's stupidist ****ing war ever.

[SteveTensi13]

Sorry, Vietnam conflict takes that award. Of course, it was the democrat party that launched and sustained that disaster and it took a Republican to end it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Sorry, Vietnam conflict takes that award. Of course, it was the democrat party that launched and sustained that disaster and it took a Republican to end it.

No Einstein, Ike sent the first American "advisor's" over there.

And it took the AMERICAN PEOPLE to end it.

Your history is about as accurate as the rest of your bigoted world.

[SteveTensi13]

No Einstein, Ike sent the first American "advisor's" over there.

And it took the AMERICAN PEOPLE to end it.

Your history is about as accurate as the rest of your bigoted world.

Sending a half dozen advisors (Eisenhower) and sending 150,000 troops (JFK, LBJ)are a big difference! And you're right, the AMERICAN PEOPLE did end the war by electing Nixon to office to correct ANOTHER democrat party foreign policy disaster!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Sending a half dozen advisors (Eisenhower) and sending 150,000 troops (JFK, LBJ)are a big difference! And you're right, the AMERICAN PEOPLE did end the war by electing Nixon to office to correct ANOTHER democrat party foreign policy disaster!
Try again this time look up both the correct answers.

How come you haven't ever produced this new law you said that "libs" passed preventing NM police officers from making arrests when illegal drugs are in plain site on traffic stops?

[SteveTensi13]

Ok, 1950 Truman sends 35 advisors to Vietnam to aid the french in their war against the Vietnamese people.http:////www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001292.html

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ok, 1950 Truman sends 35 advisors to Vietnam to aid the french in their war against the Vietnamese people.http:////www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001292.html

So I guess that "lib" crap you were spewing about illegal plain sight searches was just that, crap?

-------------------------------------------------------------
1946
Indochina War Begins: Following months of steadily deteriorating relations, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam launches its first consorted attack against the French.


1954
Battle of Dienbienphu Begins: A force of 40,000 heavily armed Vietminh lay seige to the French garrison at Dienbienphu. Using Chinese artillery to shell the airstrip, the Vietminh make it impossible for French supplies to arrive by air. It soon becomes clear that the French have met their match.

Eisenhower Cites "Domino Theory" Regarding Southeast Asia: Responding to the defeat of the French by the Vietminh at Dienbienphu, President Eisenhower outlines the Domino Theory: "You have a row of dominoes set up. You knock over the first one, and what will happen to the last one is the certainty that it will go over very quickly."


1956
French Leave Vietnam

US Training South Vietnamese: The US Military Assistance Advisor Group (MAAG) assumes responsibility, from French, for training South Vietnamese forces.


1957
Communist Insurgency into South Vietnam: Communist insurgent activity in South Vietnam begins. Guerrillas assassinate more than 400 South Vietnamese officials. Thirty-seven armed companies are organized along the Mekong Delta.

Terrorist Bombings Rock Saigon: Thirteen Americans working for MAAG and US Information Service are wounded in terrorist bombings in Saigon.


1959

Weapons Moving Along Ho Chi Minh Trail: North Vietnam forms Group 559 to begin infiltrating cadres and weapons into South Vietnam via the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The Trail will become a strategic target for future military attacks.

US Servicemen Killed in Guerilla Attack: Major Dale R. Buis and Master Sargeant Chester M. Ovnand become the first Americans to die in the Vietnam War when guerillas strike at Bienhoa


1968
November

Richard Nixon Elected President: Running on a platform of "law and order," Richard Nixon barely beats out Hubert Humphrey for the presidency. Nixon takes just 43.4 percent of the popular vote, compared to 42.7 percent for Humphrey. Third-party candidate George Wallace takes the remaining percentage of votes.

1969
Nixon Begins Secret Bombing of Cambodia: In an effort to destroy Communist supply routes and base camps in Cambodia, President Nixon gives the go-ahead to "Operation Breakfast." The covert bombing of Cambodia, conducted without the knowledge of Congress or the American public, will continue for fourteen months.


1972
Nixon Cuts Troop Levels by 70K: Responding to charges by Democratic presidential candidates that he is not moving fast enough to end US involvement in Vietnam, President Nixon orders troop strength reduced by seventy thousand.


1973
End of Draft Announced

Last American Troops Leave Vietnam

Hearings on Secret Bombings Begin: The Senate Armed Services Committee opens hearing on the US bombing of Cambodia. Allegations are made that the Nixon administration allowed bombing raids to be carried out during what was supposed to be a time when Cambodia's neutrality was officially recognized. As a result of the hearings, Congress orders that all bombing in Cambodia cease effective at midnight, August 14.

http://tinyurl.com/ag6zv

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No Einstein, Ike sent the first American "advisor's" over there.

And it took the AMERICAN PEOPLE to end it.

Your history is about as accurate as the rest of your bigoted world.

:laugh:

Watching SteveCoulter13 make so many ignorant, uninformed, and misinformed statements and make a complete fool of himself is amusing.

:D

[SteveTensi13]

So I guess that "lib" crap you were spewing about illegal plain sight searches was just that, crap?

-------------------------------------------------------------
1946
Indochina War Begins: Following months of steadily deteriorating relations, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam launches its first consorted attack against the French.


1954
Battle of Dienbienphu Begins: A force of 40,000 heavily armed Vietminh lay seige to the French garrison at Dienbienphu. Using Chinese artillery to shell the airstrip, the Vietminh make it impossible for French supplies to arrive by air. It soon becomes clear that the French have met their match.

Eisenhower Cites "Domino Theory" Regarding Southeast Asia: Responding to the defeat of the French by the Vietminh at Dienbienphu, President Eisenhower outlines the Domino Theory: "You have a row of dominoes set up. You knock over the first one, and what will happen to the last one is the certainty that it will go over very quickly."


1956
French Leave Vietnam

US Training South Vietnamese: The US Military Assistance Advisor Group (MAAG) assumes responsibility, from French, for training South Vietnamese forces.


1957
Communist Insurgency into South Vietnam: Communist insurgent activity in South Vietnam begins. Guerrillas assassinate more than 400 South Vietnamese officials. Thirty-seven armed companies are organized along the Mekong Delta.

Terrorist Bombings Rock Saigon: Thirteen Americans working for MAAG and US Information Service are wounded in terrorist bombings in Saigon.


1959

Weapons Moving Along Ho Chi Minh Trail: North Vietnam forms Group 559 to begin infiltrating cadres and weapons into South Vietnam via the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The Trail will become a strategic target for future military attacks.

US Servicemen Killed in Guerilla Attack: Major Dale R. Buis and Master Sargeant Chester M. Ovnand become the first Americans to die in the Vietnam War when guerillas strike at Bienhoa


1968
November

Richard Nixon Elected President: Running on a platform of "law and order," Richard Nixon barely beats out Hubert Humphrey for the presidency. Nixon takes just 43.4 percent of the popular vote, compared to 42.7 percent for Humphrey. Third-party candidate George Wallace takes the remaining percentage of votes.

1969
Nixon Begins Secret Bombing of Cambodia: In an effort to destroy Communist supply routes and base camps in Cambodia, President Nixon gives the go-ahead to "Operation Breakfast." The covert bombing of Cambodia, conducted without the knowledge of Congress or the American public, will continue for fourteen months.


1972
Nixon Cuts Troop Levels by 70K: Responding to charges by Democratic presidential candidates that he is not moving fast enough to end US involvement in Vietnam, President Nixon orders troop strength reduced by seventy thousand.


1973
End of Draft Announced

Last American Troops Leave Vietnam

Hearings on Secret Bombings Begin: The Senate Armed Services Committee opens hearing on the US bombing of Cambodia. Allegations are made that the Nixon administration allowed bombing raids to be carried out during what was supposed to be a time when Cambodia's neutrality was officially recognized. As a result of the hearings, Congress orders that all bombing in Cambodia cease effective at midnight, August 14.

http://tinyurl.com/ag6zv

I noticed you conveniently left out 1950 when Truman sent the first advisors to Vietnam!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I noticed you conveniently left out 1950 when Truman sent the first advisors to Vietnam!
I noticed you have "conveniently" forgotten (again) to answer my question about your "libs" who have gutted the NM traffic and drug laws and prevented you from arresting criminals who use and deal illegal drugs, how come?

[Atlas]

This is great. I like where he called the guy "Bubba" Bubba Bush I'm sure!!

'Men should be barred from public office'
One way to reduce such dangers in the world would be to leave women in charge, said the former husband of Jane Fonda.

"Men should be barred from public office for 100 years in every part of the world. ... It would be a much kinder, gentler, more intelligently run world. The men have had millions of years where we've been running things. We've screwed it up hopelessly. Let's give it to the women."

In the meantime, the United Nations represents the best hope, Turner said.

While the world body is ridiculed as ineffective and irrelevant by its harshest critics and often criticized by its strongest advocates, Turner offered what was then one-third of his net worth to the world body nine years ago.

"I am absolutely certain we would not have made it through the Cold War without the U.N.," Turner said. "When Khrushchev at the U.N. took his shoe off and hit podium he was so mad, but he had a place to let off steam. If the U.N. hadn't been there, that would have been war right then."

When a questioner from the audience challenged Turner on the United Nations's value, Turner shot back.

"The war between Lebanon and Israel and Hizbollah would still be going on if it hadn't been for the U.N., and that's only in the last two weeks, Bubba."

[Bronx33]

Isn't ted humping hanoi jane?

[Atlas]

Isn't ted humping hanoi jane?

They split up awhile ago. i don't know who he is humping now.

He might be humping this lady.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:2ZoAr8aewvvecM:http://web.wireimage.com/images/thumbnail/276532.jpg

Or he might be humping this lady.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:F2pdOLoZj7t88M:http://www.atlantasocietypage.com/2005_Dec/images/PHOTO-1.KK.Stewart.Turner.05.jpg

Both are listed as his girlfirends

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Karl Rove might be humping Jeff Gannon.

(Or is it Jeff Gannon might be humping Karl Rove?)

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/227/bagtj8.jpg

[BKK]

Ted married a traitor:peace:

[bendog]

Yeah, but he screwed around on her so much, she divorced him.

[baja]

No Einstein, Ike sent the first American "advisor's" over there.

<b>And it took the AMERICAN PEOPLE to end it.</b>

Your history is about as accurate as the rest of your bigoted world.


<b>Well that and getting our asses kicked.

[bendog]

actually, it dates back to Truman. Someone told me FDR, but I havn't confirmed that, and it seems suspicious to me, because FDR warned about getting tied up in Europes colonial mess post war, and because of Mrs. Roosevelt's dedication to freeing the post war colonial nations.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch26.htm

I had this fascination with Truman. Bigger than life, and he was in some way, esp race. But, dammit, he screwed up bigtime. Korea might never have needed to occur. He had to choose between the French and Ho, and once we chose the French, we'd lost all cred with the rank and file who cared about nationalism.

[Stuck In Texas]

<b>Well that and getting our asses kicked.

Do you really think we got our butts kicked in Vietnam? It was a political defeat, but definitely not a military one.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Do you really think we got our butts kicked in Vietnam? It was a political defeat, but definitely not a military one.

The political arena is where wars like Vietnam are won or lost.

[SteveTensi13]

Wars are NEVER won in the political arena.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Wars are NEVER won in the political arena.

:stupid:

Yep - the opposition to the war in Vietnam by the American people and the failure to win the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese people had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of that war.

That's the ticket.

[Stuck In Texas]

The political arena is where wars like Vietnam are won or lost.

I agree. It was that way in Vietnam where the U.S. actually dominated the battlefield when involved in large scale engagements with the enemy. The Tet Offensive, for instance, was a huge military victory for the U.S., but it wasn't portrayed that way back home. If you ask most people now, they will say Tet was a defeat. It's all about perception.

The same can be said for Iraq. Militarily, it is no contest. The question is our political will. Does the current administration have the political will to finally put in the number of troops needed to secure the peace - and on the other side of the aisle, will the democrats leave for political reasons?

Just like always - the military is only an instrument of foreign policy. Politics will rule the day.

[SteveTensi13]

:stupid:

Yep - the opposition to the war in Vietnam by the American people and the failure to win the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese people had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of that war.

That's the ticket.

Only a small minority were actually against the war, but the main stream liberal media, and were only talking what 3 networks back then, did all they could to make it appear the masses were against the war when in reality most Americans supported the war.

The mistake was made by Truman, a democrat, who refused to help Ho Chi Minh when he asked for help in getting the french out. Trumans betrayal of the vietnamese people opened the door for communism to gain a foothold in southeast asia.

Thankfully, the "old" media is dieing and conservative bloggers, Fox News and other alternate news outlets are giving Americans another choice instead of the kool aid the "old" news usually serves up. That is why the so called "peace" movement has not taken hold like it did during the 60's and early 70's. I get a kick when I hear some 60's hippy retread saying he is disappointed in the youth of today because they are so "uninformed". Not "uninformed" rather not gullible like his/her generation.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Only a small minority were actually against the war, but the main stream liberal media, and were only talking what 3 networks back then, did all they could to make it appear the masses were against the war when in reality most Americans supported the war.

The mistake was made by Truman, a democrat, who refused to help Ho Chi Minh when he asked for help in getting the french out. Trumans betrayal of the vietnamese people opened the door for communism to gain a foothold in southeast asia.

Thankfully, the "old" media is dieing and conservative bloggers, Fox News and other alternate news outlets are giving Americans another choice instead of the kool aid the "old" news usually serves up. That is why the so called "peace" movement has not taken hold like it did during the 60's and early 70's. I get a kick when I hear some 60's hippy retread saying he is disappointed in the youth of today because they are so "uninformed". Not "uninformed" rather not gullible like his/her generation.

:oyvey:

Your ignorance of history and the facts is absolutely astounding.

[SteveTensi13]

:oyvey:

Your ignorance of history and the facts is absolutely astounding.

I've already biatched slapped you over this one! I don't care to revisit it with you again. Thank you very much.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I've already biatched slapped you over this one! I don't care to revisit it with you again. Thank you very much.

Your penchant for revisionist history is just as astounding as your complete disregard of history and facts.

[fido]

------------------------------------------------------------US Training South Vietnamese: The US Military Assistance Advisor Group (MAAG) assumes responsibility, from French, for training South Vietnamese forces.
http://tinyurl.com/ag6zv

much, much like todays MTTS (mobile training teams) currently on station in Iraq.

[Atlas]

Your penchant for revisionist history is just as astounding as your complete disregard of history and facts.

History and facts are not a republicans strong suit.

[mhgaffney]

Musharraf: US threatened to bomb Pakistan after 9/11
Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:29pm ET

[-] Text [+]
NEW YORK (Reuters) - President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan said that after the September 11 attacks the United States threatened to bomb his country if it did not cooperate with America's war campaign against the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Musharraf, in an interview with CBS news magazine show "60 Minutes" that will air Sunday, said the threat came from Assistant Secretary of State Richard Armitage and was given to Musharraf's intelligence director.

"The intelligence director told me that (Armitage) said, 'Be prepared to be bombed. Be prepared to go back to the Stone Age,'" Musharraf said.

"I think it was a very rude remark."

The Pakistani leader, whose remarks were distributed to the media by CBS, said he reacted to the threat in a responsible way.

"One has to think and take actions in the interest of the nation, and that's what I did," Musharraf said about the cooperation extended by Pakistan.

Musharraf said some demands made by the United States were "ludicrous," including one insisting he suppress domestic expression of support for terrorism against the United States.

"If somebody's expressing views, we cannot curb the expression of views," Musharraf said.

[Atlas]

Musharraf: US threatened to bomb Pakistan after 9/11
Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:29pm ET

[-] Text [+]
NEW YORK (Reuters) - President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan said that after the September 11 attacks the United States threatened to bomb his country if it did not cooperate with America's war campaign against the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Musharraf, in an interview with CBS news magazine show "60 Minutes" that will air Sunday, said the threat came from Assistant Secretary of State Richard Armitage and was given to Musharraf's intelligence director.

"The intelligence director told me that (Armitage) said, 'Be prepared to be bombed. Be prepared to go back to the Stone Age,'" Musharraf said.

"I think it was a very rude remark."

The Pakistani leader, whose remarks were distributed to the media by CBS, said he reacted to the threat in a responsible way.

"One has to think and take actions in the interest of the nation, and that's what I did," Musharraf said about the cooperation extended by Pakistan.

Musharraf said some demands made by the United States were "ludicrous," including one insisting he suppress domestic expression of support for terrorism against the United States.

"If somebody's expressing views, we cannot curb the expression of views," Musharraf said.


Yeah I think this was pretty much common knowledge. The U.S. had to kill terrorists and they knew terrorists would be in Pakistan. It's only logical that the war would have spread to Pakistan.

Musharraf made a wise decision.

[SteveTensi13]

I think we should do it anyways! Let it become a province of India.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I think we should do it anyways! Let it become a province of India.

Attack a nuclear weapon equipped country, Brilliant!
But pretty much expected coming from you.

[bendog]

I googled and came up with this on public opinion and vietnam. It's obvious in bias, but the facts are solid, imo. Only 30% supported the war, and support plummeted after the Tet offensive. However, look at it's conclusions:

The revelations in the press of these “secret bombings” as well as political fallout in the wake of the Kent State killing of four students by Ohio National Guardsmen forced President Nixon to sign the Paris peace agreement in 1973 which forced the withdrawal of the remaining US Forces from Vietnam.
After examining the background of the Vietnam conflict, the underlying question remains: what was the role of the media in this failure of United States foreign policy? This question seems to be valid because many of the setbacks of the war seem to be directly linked to disintegrating public support. What then, was the role of the media in the shift of American opinion? The key to understanding what occurred between the media and the military in Vietnam, and how this in turn affected public opinion, is an examination of how this relationship had previously manifested itself. In conflicts prior to Vietnam, particularly the First and Second World Wars, American journalists were by and large integrated into military units. 21 At the outbreak of the Vietnam War, it seemed that this new relationship would remain equally cooperative. These journalists were able to move freely about the country, without the restriction of being embedded in military units. At the beginning of the war no such restrictions seemed necessary, as the predominant image portrayed by the media was one of American stability and progress. However, this relationship, which held such a promising beginning, did not remain close throughout the war, and in the end seemed to force an undesirable conclusion to the Vietnam conflict
http://25thaviation.org/id1128.htm

What strikes me is the odd logical connnection made, which steve of course buys into. The Johnson admin constantly told us we were "winning." The absurd death tallies, and mission tallies. Then Tet. People, and the media, saying WTF? Tet decimated the Cong and even the NVA, but that wasn't the pt. If the communists would do a Tet, there was no way we'd ever win. They'd fight forever. And that message is now the media's fault.

In Iraq we had a media that was afraid and muzzled to report "THERE AREN"T WOMD ... Blix says they ain't there." Now as operation qWagmire lurches towards its eventual end in 2009, it's again the media's fault for not reporting the positives of our occupation.

[bendog]

some of those 'negative' stories.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060922/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_casey_interview;_ylt=Avhwmt2N7EPbF6zlxghCHhUL ewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060920/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_fading_hopes;_ylt=AoFUCjdpWreDcyyr7gaBC_4Lewg F;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

[W*GS]

Aren't all wars dumb, by definition?

[Bronx33]

Aren't all wars dumb, by definition?



Yep, well except ousting hitler but why the **** does anybody care what ted turner has to say.

[gunns]

Only a small minority were actually against the war, but the main stream liberal media, and were only talking what 3 networks back then, did all they could to make it appear the masses were against the war when in reality most Americans supported the war.

The mistake was made by Truman, a democrat, who refused to help Ho Chi Minh when he asked for help in getting the french out. Trumans betrayal of the vietnamese people opened the door for communism to gain a foothold in southeast asia.

Thankfully, the "old" media is dieing and conservative bloggers, Fox News and other alternate news outlets are giving Americans another choice instead of the kool aid the "old" news usually serves up. That is why the so called "peace" movement has not taken hold like it did during the 60's and early 70's. I get a kick when I hear some 60's hippy retread saying he is disappointed in the youth of today because they are so "uninformed". Not "uninformed" rather not gullible like his/her generation.

Quite obvious you weren't even aware of what happened back then. It wasn't a small minority. Only Nixon and his allegiance called the opposition the Silent Majority, the love it or leave it contigent. It wasn't a majority. Yes the media played it up that way and Nixon decided to use that momentum to escalate. The true majority was soon realized, the problems with the war and the escalation and Nixon's admin disintegrated at a rapid rate. We'd have gone through the same thing as we are with Bush in regards as no steps towards impeachment if Nixon had truly been the light of the "Silent Majority". He was merely the leader of a minority and when the media revealed that and the problems with the war, and Watergate's true criminals exposed, the media took the hit. Some the truth hurts. As it does to the minority today.