Iraq al-Qaida Says Pope, West Are Doomed

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What's going on there, didn't we go in there and conquer these religious radicals?

----------------------------------------------------------
Iraq al-Qaida says pope, West are doomed
By ANNA JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer

CAIRO, Egypt - An al-Qaida-linked extremist group warned
Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that he and the West were "doomed," as protesters raged across the Muslim world to demand more of an apology from the pontiff for his remarks about Islam and violence.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups that includes al-Qaida in
Iraq, issued a statement on a Web forum vowing to continue its holy war against the West. The authenticity of the statement could not be independently verified.

The group said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as "the worshipper of the cross" saying "you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword."

Islam forbids drinking alcohol and requires non-Muslims to pay a head tax to safeguard their lives if conquered by Muslims. They are exempt if they convert to Islam.

In Indian-controlled Kashmir, meanwhile, shops, businesses and schools shut down in response to a strike call by the head of a hard-line Muslim separatist leader to denounce Benedict. For the third day running, people burned tires and shouted "Down with the pope."

Protests also broke out in Iraq, where angry demonstrators burned an effigy of the pope in Basra, and in Indonesia, where more than 100 people rallied in front of the heavily guarded Vatican Embassy in Jakarta, waving banners that said the "Pope is building religion on hatred."

The pope on Sunday said he was "deeply sorry" about the angry reaction to his speech last week in which he cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of Islam's Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman" and referred to spreading Islam "by the sword."

Benedict said the remarks came from a text that didn't reflect his own opinion.

"I hope that this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect," he said during his weekly appearance before pilgrims in Italy.

The statement of regret — the pope's second in two days — helped ease some tensions.

In Turkey, where outrage against Benedict's remarks had been swift, Catholic bishops decided Monday that no changes were necessary in his upcoming visit in November — his first to a Muslim country, Vatican spokesman George Marovic said.

Marovic said the trip was expected to go on as planned, and the bishops had discussed the details of a religious ceremony the pontiff is to lead in Istanbul.

However, State Minister Mehmet Aydin, who oversees the religious affairs in Turkey, said he expected Turkish authorities to cancel the visit if Benedict does not offer a full apology.

"We are expecting the authorities to unilaterally cancel this visit. The pope's coming to Turkey isn't going to foment the uniting of civilizations, but a clash of civilizations," he said.

The secretary-general of the Turkish HUKUK-DER law association submitted a request to the Justice Ministry asking that the pope be arrested upon entering Turkey.

The appeal by Fikret Karabekmez, a former legislator for the banned pro-Islamic Welfare Party, called for Benedict to be tried under several Turkish laws, among them obstruction of freedom of belief, encouraging discrimination based on religion, and inciting religious hatred.

A prosecutor in the ministry will evaluate the request and decide whether to open a case.

Angry reactions also persisted in other corners of the Muslim world, where many demanded more of an apology by the pope than Sunday's statement of regret.

"Muslims have all this while felt oppressed, and the statement by the pope saying he is sorry about the angry reaction is inadequate to calm the anger — more so because he is the highest leader of the Vatican," Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar said.

More than 200 Muslims staged a sit-in at a shrine in Damascus, Syria, heeding a call by the Damascus office of Iran's spiritual leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. A statement issued by the office urged the pope to "openly and plainly apologize for his remarks."

Protesters also rallied in the city of Muzaffarabad, in the Pakistani-controlled part of Kashmir. "His apology is not sufficient because he did not say that what he said was wrong," said Uzair Ahmed of Pasban-e-Hurriyat, a Pakistani political group.

Morocco's King Mohammed VI sent a letter to the Vatican in which he implored Benedict to show "the same respect for Islam that you have for the other religions," Moroccan media reported. Morocco withdrew its ambassador to the Vatican over the weekend.

Even in China, where the government exerts tight controls over religious activities, a top religious official said Benedict had insulted the nation's Muslims.

"This has gravely hurt the feelings of the Muslims across the world, including those from China," Chen Guangyuan, president of Islamic Association of China, was quoted as saying in an interview with the Xinhua news agency.

In the Middle East, where Muslims threw firebombs at seven churches in the West Bank and Gaza Strip over the weekend, Christian leaders posted guards outside some churches.

"We are afraid," said Sonia Kobatazi, a Christian Lebanese, after Mass at the Maronite Christian St. George Cathedral in Beirut, Lebanon, where about a dozen policemen carrying automatic weapons stood guard.

___

Associated Press writers Maamoun Youssef in Cairo, Aijaz Hussain in Srinigar, India, Benjamin Harvey in Istanbul, Turkey, and Slobodan Lekic in Islamabad, Pakistan, contributed to this report.
http://tinyurl.com/obntg

[W*GS]

[...]CAIRO, Egypt - An al-Qaida-linked extremist group warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that he and the West were "doomed," as protesters raged across the Muslim world to demand more of an apology from the pontiff for his remarks about Islam and violence.
[...]
The group said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as "the worshipper of the cross" saying "you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword."

The first paragraph and the next one contradict each other...

"Apologize for saying Muslims are violent or we'll kill you!"

Uh-hunh.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The first paragraph and the next one contradict each other...

"Apologize for saying Muslims are violent or we'll kill you!"

Uh-hunh.
Only to sane people.

[bendog]

Well, bin laden looks to outlast this pope, anyway.

[Rohirrim]

So, first the Muslims get upset because the Pope quotes some Byzantine emperor who says that Islam is a religion that is spread by the sword, so in protest, they shoot a nun to death and threaten to behead anyone who doesn't convert? What part of this am I missing?

[bendog]

I think you got.

And our potus thinks God told him to invade iraq to spread captialism.

[W*GS]

So, first the Muslims get upset because the Pope quotes some Byzantine emperor who says that Islam is a religion that is spread by the sword, so in protest, they shoot a nun to death and threaten to behead anyone who doesn't convert? What part of this am I missing?

And to think that during Europe's Dark Ages, the intellectual heritage of the Greeks was kept alive and greatly improved upon and expanded by the Islamic world - we likely wouldn't know Archimedes, Erastosthenes, Plato, Aristotle, etc., etc. since they were lost to Europe at that time...

[sonsofkraftybob]

So, first the Muslims get upset because the Pope quotes some Byzantine emperor who says that Islam is a religion that is spread by the sword, so in protest, they shoot a nun to death and threaten to behead anyone who doesn't convert? What part of this am I missing?

They do well "speading by the sword".....

The List of Islamic Terror Attacks Since August 1, 2006 only. All Jihadist attacks in Iraq REMOVED:

Date Country City Killed Injured Description

9/18/06 Somalia Mogadishu 5 4 At least five people are killed in a car bomb attack on the Somali president.
9/17/06 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 A 70-year-old nun working at a childrens' hospital is shot to death by radical Muslims, along with a guard.
9/17/06 Afghanistan Kandahar 1 11 A suicide bomber kills an innocent civilian in a blast along a city street.
9/17/06 Afghanistan Helmand 2 0 Two policemen are murdered by Taliban extremists in a roadside attack.
9/16/06 Thailand Hat Yai 5 79 At least five patrons of a shopping district are killed when Muslim militants set off six separate bombs.
9/16/06 Afghanistan Kabul 3 1 Three humanitarian workers are blown apart by the Taliban.
9/15/06 Yemen Haradmut 1 0 One of two suicide attacks on oil facilities in Yemen nets the death of a guard.
9/15/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A man is killed in his home by militant Muslims.
9/15/06 Thailand Narathiwat 2 1 Two civilians are brutally shot to death by Islamic militants while traveling on a road.
9/15/06 India Watergam 1 7 al-Mansoorian terrorists attack an Indian security patrol, killing one member.
9/15/06 India Surankote 1 5 A young boy is killed when Hizb-ul-Mujahideen terrorists lob a grenade into his family's home.
9/14/06 Afghanistan Bakwa 2 2 Religious extremists attack a police station, killing two officers.
9/14/06 India Hathiwara 1 0 A photographer is kidnapped and beheaded by the Religion of Peace.
9/13/06 Afghanistan Farah 1 0 A UN humanitarian worker is murdered by Muslim militants on a road.
9/12/06 Syria Damascus 1 14 Terrorists shouting 'Allah Akbar' detonate a car bomb and attempt to storm the U.S. embassy. A Syrian guard is killed.
9/12/06 India Thandi Dhok 2 0 A husband and wife are murdered in their home by the Mujahideen.
9/12/06 Turkey Amed 10 13 An ultra-nationalist group with Islamist ties bombs a bus stop, killing ten Kurds, including seven children.
9/11/06 India Kulgam 1 0 A security official succumbs to injuries from a terrorist ambush.
9/11/06 Thailand Yala 1 4 A Buddhist woman is gunned down by militant Muslims in her grocery store.
9/11/06 Afghanistan Khost 6 36 A 12-year-old boy is among six people murdered by a suicide bomber at a funeral for a previous victim of a suicide bombing.
9/10/06 Pakistan Wana 1 0 A tribal leader is gunned down by Islamists as he is walking home.
9/10/06 Afghanistan Gardez 3 3 A suicide bomber kills a regional official and two others.
9/9/06 Pakistan Miramshah 1 0 The local Taliban pump a 70-year-old man full of bullets and leave him with a note attached to his body.
9/9/06 India Sonwar 1 1 A taxi driver is killed, and a young girl severely injured in a Mujahideen attack.
9/9/06 India Bandipore 1 1 Islamic terrorists open fire on a fruit vendor.
9/9/06 India Doda 1 1 The Mujahideen gun down a man and seriously injure his wife.
9/9/06 India Ahlan 1 0 A civilian is killed by Islamic militants.
9/9/06 India Doda 2 0 The Mujahideen raid a police station, killing two officers and stealing weapons.
9/9/06 Pakistan Garjakh 2 0 A man murders his nephew and nephew's girlfriend for an 'illicit relationship.'
9/9/06 Indonesia Poso 1 0 A young Christian woman is killed when Islamic radicals throw a bomb at her house.
9/8/06 India Malegaon 31 297 Pakistani-backed militants are thought to be responsible for multiple bomb blasts that leave thirty-one dead and three-hundred injured.
9/8/06 India Doda 1 0 A man is kidnapped by the Mujahideen. He dies two days later from injuries suffered.
9/8/06 Afghanistan Kabul 18 30 The lives of eighteen people are snuffed out by a Fedayeen suicide bomber in a downtown blast.
9/8/06 Pakistan Barkhan 5 21 Five people are killed in the bombing of a bus station.
9/7/06 India Budbug 1 0 The Mujahideen invade a home and kill a resident.
9/7/06 Afghanistan Kabul 3 11 Three British soldiers die in a single day from attacks by religious extremists.
9/7/06 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A young college student is murdered after converting from Islam to Christianity.
9/7/06 India Srinagar 1 0 A high school student succumbs to injuries suffered from a terror attack the week before.
9/6/06 Afghanistan Yaqubi 2 1 A sucide bomber kills a teacher and one other person.
9/6/06 Indonesia Tangkuran 1 0 A Christian is killed in a bombing attack by militant Muslims.
9/6/06 Pakistan Kaga 1 0 A 12-year-old girl is killed in her home by al-Qaeda backed militants.
9/5/06 Sudan Khartoum 1 0 A newspaper editor is kidnapped and beheaded by Islamic hard-liners after publishing an article questioning Muhammad's parentage.
9/5/06 Pakistan Phuldayun 1 0 A Muslim man guns down his wife, a young mother, in an 'honor' killing.
9/5/06 India Sopore 1 0 The Hizb-ul-Mujahideen murder a student returning home from classes.
9/5/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslims gun down a man sitting in a tea shop.
9/5/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim militants set fire to a house, killing a 61-year-old man.
9/5/06 Lebanon Rmeileh 4 4 Four members of a detail investigating a Christian's death are themselves killed in a bombing by Muslim radicals.
9/5/06 Thailand Yala 1 2 An older woman is killed in her home by Islamists.
9/4/06 Afghanistan Parwan 3 1 Religious extremists attack a police vehicle, killing three occupants.
9/4/06 India Kashmir 7 11 Seven Indian troops are killed in three separate attacks by Islamic militants.
9/4/06 Philippines Jolo 5 20 Abu Sayyaf militants kill five troops trying to apprehend two Bali bombers.
9/4/06 Jordan Amman 1 5 A terrorist yells, 'Allah Akbar' while gunning down a British tourist and injuring five others.
9/4/06 India Tangmarg 2 0 An off-duty soldier and his kid brother are brutally murdered by Islamic extremists.
9/4/06 Afghanistan Kabul 6 7 Six civilians are killed by a Fedayeen suicide bomber. The casualties included children.
9/3/06 Turkey Istanbul 1 0 An Imam is stabbed to death by a religious fanatic.
9/2/06 India Gani Hamam 1 0 A vegetable vendor is murdered by the Mujahideen.
9/2/06 Afghanistan Nimroz 4 10 The Taliban kill four Afghan police officers and abduct ten others.
9/2/06 Algeria Ouled Hamza 2 0 Two community guards are murdered by Islamic fundamentalists.
9/2/06 Afghanistan Helmand 3 1 The Taliban muder three police at a checkpoint.
9/2/06 Algeria Adekar 4 5 Islamic fundamentalists ambush a security patrol and kill four members.
9/1/06 India Darwashbagh 1 0 Islamic militants abduct and murder a civilian.
9/1/06 India Pulwama 1 2 A man is murdered by the Mujahideen in an attack that also injures two family members.
8/31/06 Thailand Yala 1 27 Islamists set off two dozen bombs in garbage cans, killing at least one person.
8/31/06 India Dangiwacha 1 0 Islamic terrorists invade a home and kill the daughter of a policeman.
8/31/06 India Dawoocha 1 0 The Mujahideen murder a woman in her home.
8/31/06 India Saroti 2 0 Islamic terrorists brutally murder two police officers.
8/30/06 Pakistan Wana 1 0 A 14-year-old boy is abducted and murdered by the Mujahideen.
8/30/06 Pakistan North Waziristan 2 0 Two men are beheaded in separate attacks by the local Taliban.
8/30/06 India Devar Lolab 1 1 Islamic terrorists kill a policeman and injure a civilian.
8/29/06 Ingushetia Nazran 1 0 A police officer is gunned down by Muslim militants.
8/29/06 India Budgam 1 0 Terrorists slit the throat of a 17-year-old boy.
8/29/06 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 1 A suicide bomber kills two civilians.
8/28/06 Pakistan Naushki 1 0 A mob enters the home of a barber and shoots him to death.
8/28/06 Afghanistan Leskergah 19 41 Nineteen innocents at a marketplace are blown to bits by a Taliban suicide bomber. The casualties included fifteen children.
8/28/06 Afghanistan Heart 1 0 A Turkish engineer is murdered by religious extremists while traveling on a highway.
8/28/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim militants attack a man delivering donuts, killing him and then cutting off his ears.
8/28/06 Afghanistan Kabul 1 0 A second Turkish engineer is murdered in a garage by the Taliban.
8/28/06 Pakistan North Waziristan 1 0 Islamists kidnap a man, pump him full of bullets, then attach a note to his body.
8/28/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A man is murdered by Islamic terrorists at a petrol station.
8/26/06 Ingushetia Ossetian Border 3 1 Terrorists attack a vehicle, killing three Russians inside.
8/26/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Muslim militants ambush two pick-up trucks carrying soldiers, killing at least one.
8/26/06 Thailand Yala 2 5 Two Thai soldiers are killed by a remote-controlled roadside bomb.
8/26/06 Kosovo Kosovska Mitrovica 0 9 Nine people are injured when a Muslim hurls a bomb into a bar.
8/25/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 25-year-old man is murdered by terrorists as he sat in his truck.
8/25/06 Afghanistan Ghazni 2 2 The Taliban kill two local officials in an attack on a community.
8/25/06 India Doda 1 0 A woman is shot to death by the Mujahideen.
8/23/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A schoolteacher is gunned down by Muslim militants as he is on his way to teach.
8/23/06 Pakistan Sindh 5 11 Five members of a family, including a 3-year-old girl, are murdered in their home in an honor killing.
8/23/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Militant Muslims murder a community guard.
8/22/06 Afghanistan Gayan 5 0 Religious extremists ambush a police vehicle, killing all five officers inside.
8/22/06 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 3 A young girl and a Canadian soldier are murdered by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
8/21/06 India Baramulla 1 0 The Mujahideen gun down a man near his house.
8/21/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A man is murdered by Muslim terrorists in his living room.
8/21/06 Thailand Yala 3 0 Three Buddhist civilians are gunned down in an orchard by Islamic radicals.
8/20/06 Ingushetia Alkhasty 2 0 Islamic militants are suspected in two nighttime attacks on police officers in their homes. One was set on fire in front of his family.
8/20/06 Thailand Pattani 1 1 Muslim gunmen fire into a truck loaded with laborers, killing one.
8/20/06 Afghanistan Panjwai 5 11 The Taliban attack a police post, killing at least five Afghans.
8/20/06 Afghanistan Helmand 3 0 Three policemen are killed by a Taliban remote-controlled bomb.
8/19/06 Afghanistan Paktika 1 0 A man is murdered by the Taliban.
8/19/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Radical Islamists shoot a plantation worker as he is riding a motorcycle to his job.
8/19/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamic terrorists shoot a man to death on a city street.
8/19/06 Algeria Telagh 2 1 Fundamentalists slit the throats of two victims, then place a bomb under the bodies to kill civil workers.
8/19/06 Israel Bekaot 1 0 An Israeli is killed by a Fatah gunman in the West Bank.
8/19/06 Egypt Cairo 1 0 A Christian cobbler is stabbed to death by an angry Muslim.
8/18/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 58-year-old man is murdered in front of his house by militant Muslims.
8/17/06 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Two men are shot off their motorbikes by Muslim terrorists in separate attacks.
8/17/06 Iraq Baghdad 3 28 Sunnis use a car bomb to kill three Shia civilians.
8/17/06 India Srinagar 3 2 Three policemen are killed in separate attacks.
8/17/06 India Wutligam 1 0 A civilian is shot to death by the Mujahideen.
8/17/06 India Budgam 1 0 In a gruesome attack, militant Muslims kidnap a craftsman and then cut off his head.
8/16/06 Ingushetia Nazran 1 1 A Russian is killed when Islamic separatists attack his vehicle with automatic weapons.
8/16/06 Afghanistan Ghazni 1 1 The Taliban murder a police officer.
8/15/06 Philippines Basilan 1 0 Abu Sayyaf is suspected in the assassination of a high school principal.
8/14/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamic fundamentalists murder a pork seller.
8/14/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A rubber plantation worker is murderd by Islamic terrorists.
8/14/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 56-year-old man is shot seven times in the head by Islamic separatists.
8/14/06 India Sopore 1 0 A grenade attack on a bus stop fatally injures a civilian.
8/13/06 India Shopian 1 1 Harkat-ul-Mujahideen kill a 20-year-old woman and leave her sister-in-law critically injured.
8/13/06 Thailand Narathiwat 4 12 Islamic radicals kill a shopowner to draw police, then detonate a bomb, killing three additional civilians and injuring twelve.
8/13/06 Pal. Auth. Jenin 1 0 Islamic Jihad executes a man in front of a crowd of people.
8/13/06 Afghanistan Bermel 5 6 Five Afghan soliders are killed when the Taliban stage a terror attack on their post.
8/13/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 2 A man is killed by Muslim gunmen in a drive-by shooting while he is having tea. Two elderly patrons are wounded.
8/13/06 Philippines Jolo 3 0 Abu Sayyaf kidnappers stab a businesswoman to death and behead her son after taking them captive. A policeman trying to rescue them is killed as well.
8/13/06 Israel Shlomi 1 21 Hezbollah fires rockets into an Israeli neighborhood, killing a 70-year-old man in his home.
8/13/06 Pakistan Baltistan 1 1 A bomb hidden in a toy kills a 14-year-old girl.
8/12/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A policeman is gunned down by Muslim militants while on patrol.
8/12/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamists shoot a policeman in the back as he is leaving his house.
8/12/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A circus owner is killed by two Muslim terrorists posing as customers.
8/12/06 India Drogian 2 0 Two elderly people are shot to death in their homes by Islamic terrorists.
8/12/06 Italy Brescia 1 0 A 20-year-old girl is killed by her family for having a relationship with a non-Muslim.
8/11/06 India Arra 3 0 A Hindu mother and her two young children are brutally slain in their home by Muslim fanatics.
8/11/06 Philippines Pikit 2 0 Two policemen are ambushed and executed by the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.
8/11/06 Afghanistan Spin Boldak 1 0 A suicide bomber kills a Canadian soldier in a transport convoy.
8/11/06 Afghanistan Ghazni 1 0 Religious extremists kill a man outside his home.
8/11/06 Afghanistan Ghazni 2 1 Two civilians are killed by a roadside bombing.
8/11/06 Afghanistan Nuristan 3 4 Three U.S. soldiers are killed when Taliban militants bombard their patrol with rockets.
8/10/06 Philippines North Cotabato 1 5 A bombing attack by Islamic militants leaves one dead and five injured.
8/10/06 Israel Dir el-Asad 2 11 A young mother and her 4-year-old son are blown apart in their home by a Katyusha rocket.
8/10/06 Israel Karmiel 1 0 A baby girl is killed by Hezbollah rockets fired on her family's home.
8/10/06 Israel Jerusalem 1 0 An Italian tourist is stabbed to death by a Palestinian youth.
8/10/06 India Pattan 1 2 The Mujahideen gun down a civilian and injure his wife and neighbor.
8/9/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 An elderly gas station owner is shot to death in a Muslim terror attack.
8/9/06 Ingushetia Nazran 1 13 Radicals bomb a prosecutor's house, killing his brother.
8/9/06 Pakistan Angoor Adda 1 0 An elderly man is shot to death by Islamic militants.
8/8/06 Dagestan Makhachkala 3 0 Islamic separatists bomb a government official's convoy, killing three people.
8/8/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A rubber tapper is murdered by Islamic terrorists.
8/7/06 Afghanistan Daigh 2 0 A 70-year-old woman and her 13-year-old grandson are pulled from their home and hanged by the Taliban.
8/7/06 Pakistan Garhiyoum 1 0 A tribal leader is abducted and beheaded by Muslim extremists.
8/7/06 India Donipawa 1 0 A civilian is abducted and murdered by the Mujahideen.
8/7/06 Russia Karachaevsk 1 0 A local Imam is gunned down by Islamists for performing healing.
8/6/06 Israel Kfar Giladi 12 14 Hezbollah successfully hits a gathering of people in a community, killing twelve Israelis.
8/6/06 India Sopore 1 17 A woman is killed when Islamic terrorists lob a grenade into the street.
8/6/06 Thailand Tala 1 0 A rubber plantation worker is machine-gunned to death by Islamic radicals.
8/6/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 52-year-old Buddhist civilian is gunned down by Muslims.
8/6/06 Israel Haifa 3 189 A crowded residential area is the target of Hezbollah rockets. An Israeli woman is among three dead.
8/5/06 Israel al-Aramshe 3 4 A 60-year-old Arab-Israeli woman and her two daughters are killed when a Hezbollah rocket lands in their home.
8/5/06 India Poonch 1 0 The Mujahideen capture a village head, beat him up and then shoot him in the head.
8/4/06 Israel Karmiel 2 82 Two people are killed and dozens injured by more 'Party of Allah' rockets.
8/4/06 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 2 Two children are killed when religious extremists lob an explosive into a house.
8/4/06 Israel Mughar 1 2 The mother of two young children is killed in her living room by a Hezbollah rocket.
8/3/06 Afghanistan Kandahar 21 13 A Shaheed martyr murders twenty-one innocents at a market by detonating explosives strapped to his body.
8/3/06 Israel Ma'a lot 3 0 Three Arab Israelis are killed by a Hezbollah rocket attack.
8/3/06 Israel Acre 5 92 Five Israeli civilians, including a father and daughter, are killed during a 90-minute rocket barrage on their town from Hezbollah.
8/3/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 Islamic militants shoot a mechanic to death and seriously injure a 5-year-old girl.
8/3/06 Tajikistan Dushanbe 1 0 An Islamist kills himself and a police officer with a grenade.
8/2/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Islamists kill a guard at a construction site with a bomb.
8/2/06 Israel Nahariya 1 0 An Israeli man is killed by a Hezbollah rocket while riding his bike.
8/2/06 Thailand Songkhla 3 1 Thai Islamists kill three policeman with a bomb planted along a railroad track.
8/1/06 India Srinagar 4 2 Four Indian soldiers are shot to death by Islamic militants in two separate attacks. One was outside a hospital, and the other a shopping area.
8/1/06 Afghanistan Helmand 3 1 A Taliban ambush on a NATO patrol leaves three British soldiers dead

[Rohirrim]

Islam is a religion of peace. ;D






Yeah. As in, "Rest in Peace."

[bendog]

How many lebanese died in the same time period?

Something like 30% of this country support using the US military to install neocon (pro Israel) govts in the ME.

The expansion in Israel would stop but for the dollars the ultra-orthodox give.

One can argue, rationally imo, that muslims tend to react with violence to perceived insults more than the West. However, if we want to discuss using God to justify violence, it's not a one-way street.

[mosca]

So, first the Muslims get upset because the Pope quotes some Byzantine emperor who says that Islam is a religion that is spread by the sword, so in protest, they shoot a nun to death and threaten to behead anyone who doesn't convert? What part of this am I missing?
Perhaps Benedict anticipated the reaction coming from some of these hard-line Muslims and made his statement, knowing that they would prove his very own point.

[Smiling Assassin27]

I'm guessing we won't see any Muslim outcry over this, despite the outcry over disrespectful cartoons of their prophet...double standards suck.

http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A2D5F059-EB04-43E3-9ADF-1ED7F5AD6345.htm

[bendog]

The outcry was also over the fact that it's an affront to "picture" the prophet. Blasphemy actually.

But you're right, RC's won't burn any mosques or kill anyone. Still, the treatment of JPII, or even the RCC, was hardly disrespectful.

[ant1999e]

How many lebanese died in the same time period?

Something like 30% of this country support using the US military to install neocon (pro Israel) govts in the ME.

The expansion in Israel would stop but for the dollars the ultra-orthodox give.

One can argue, rationally imo, that muslims tend to react with violence to perceived insults more than the West. However, if we want to discuss using God to justify violence, it's not a one-way street.

Your an idiot.

[alkemical]

actually it's a pretty fair post.

[orangenblue2]

Wow, just imagine if everyone quit believing in magical, supernatural beings...Would we as the human race be worse off...or better???

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Your an idiot.
Says the genius who can't spell "you're".

Wow, just imagine if everyone quit believing in magical, supernatural beings...Would we as the human race be worse off...or better???

We'd actually have a chance to all live together on this planet peacefully if people didn't have any reason to think their beliefs were superior to others IMO.

[alkemical]

Wow, just imagine if everyone quit believing in magical, supernatural beings...Would we as the human race be worse off...or better???



Well considering i'm more of the 'magical' side - i think it depends on the belief that everyone can share the same 'reality'.

IMO - what would be the root cause of fundamentalist belief that would cause someone to be aggressive in their defense for their own 'belief structure'? I can see the same 'behaviour' in political beliefs and in some extensions in how people & sports are related. Why do we have this need to 'belong' to the point that we'd sacrifice our own lives in defense for one ideology or another?

I couldn't be an athiest any more than i could be a democrat or republican.

[orangenblue2]

Well considering i'm more of the 'magical' side - i think it depends on the belief that everyone can share the same 'reality'.

Not as long as people insist on "worshipping" invisible beings that have no bearing on everyone's reality. By everyone's reality, I'm talking about reality that everyone (regardless of faith or the lack thereof) that everyone can observe...

IMO - what would be the root cause of fundamentalist belief that would cause someone to be aggressive in their defense for their own 'belief structure'?

Delusions of grandeur, perhaps...

I can see the same 'behaviour' in political beliefs and in some extensions in how people & sports are related. Why do we have this need to 'belong' to the point that we'd sacrifice our own lives in defense for one ideology or another?

IMO, it's not the same thing. Politics and sports are things that everyone can see, feel, taste, smell, etc.. Differences arise due to perception, bias, "homerism", etc.; they don't rise to the level of killing the "infidels" or "spreading the good news of JC & The Boys". The human race needs to evolve and get past these relics of yesteryear if we ever want to live in peace and harmony. Wars, in general, have their time and place. Differences over who's god is more powerful, most compassionate, most loving, most beneficent, etc., have never been and never will be a good reason for even one person's blood to be shed. That's the reality I'd like to see...

I couldn't be an athiest any more than i could be a democrat or republican.

I couldn't be a believer any more than I could be a Chiefs fan...

[enjolras]

We'd be far worse off.. Religion offers a hope and a optimism that is absolutely essential for mankind to thrive. It gives our energies focus and helps us make sense out of life. It'd be tragic to lose that very important aspect of the human condition.

The problem isn't religion, its those who practice it (it's very much a 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' type of thing). For a great many 'religious' people, religion isn't about god. It's about a great many worldly things... Islamic extremists share a common trait with extremists of every ilk (be it Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, etc..). They are about control and power. They use God as a convienent stepping stone to what they really want....a world in which everyone acts and thinks exactly as they do.

That's not the fault of religion..it's the fault of broken people.

[orangenblue2]

We'd be far worse off.. Religion offers a hope and a optimism that is absolutely essential for mankind to thrive. It gives our energies focus and helps us make sense out of life. It'd be tragic to lose that very important aspect of the human condition..

I disagree. My hopes and optimism have nothing to do with religion, whatsoever. The fact that there are literally millions of human beings who not only survive, but thrive, without a belief in any religion proves that it is not "essential". My "energies" don't need a god to "focus" and life...well, it makes a hell of alot more "sense" without the religious claptrap. Other than that, I guess we would be in agreement...:peace:

[Atlas]

I don't see what the big deal is. If we all just convert to Islam they'll leave us alone. Hell, that don't sound too bad. How hard can it be??

I am now an Islam convert. I don't feel any different

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Says the genius who can't spell "you're".


ROFL! ^5

This sort of irony always makes me chuckle. :D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

We'd be far worse off.. Religion offers a hope and a optimism that is absolutely essential for mankind to thrive. It gives our energies focus and helps us make sense out of life. It'd be tragic to lose that very important aspect of the human condition.

The problem isn't religion, its those who practice it (it's very much a 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' type of thing). For a great many 'religious' people, religion isn't about god. It's about a great many worldly things... Islamic extremists share a common trait with extremists of every ilk (be it Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, etc..). They are about control and power. They use God as a convienent stepping stone to what they really want....a world in which everyone acts and thinks exactly as they do.

That's not the fault of religion..it's the fault of broken people.

There's a post I can support. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately, the people who represent the best that religion has to offer seem to be the exception these days, and people like DBruleU and errand who peddle bigotry and hate and call it "Christianity" are the rule.

[enjolras]

I don't see what the big deal is. If we all just convert to Islam they'll leave us alone. Hell, that don't sound too bad. How hard can it be??

I am now an Islam convert. I don't feel any different

I'm assuming they want you to ACT like a proper Islamic radical as well. You know... beat your wife, participate in stonings, rape your neighbors daughter because her brother commited a crime... that type of thing. Oh ya, and you have to grow a beard too (I hope it doesn't come in patchy).

The psychopathic nature of radical Islam really knows no bounds after all.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'm assuming they want you to ACT like a proper Islamic radical as well. You know... beat your wife, participate in stonings, rape your neighbors daughter because her brother commited a crime... that type of thing. Oh ya, and you have to grow a beard too (I hope it doesn't come in patchy).

The psychopathic nature of radical Islam really knows no bounds after all.
Nor does the the "psychopathic nature" of Christianity as defined by the "Christian" leaders. Which religion (people) kills more humans I wonder?

[enjolras]

Nor does the the "psychopathic nature" of Christianity as defined by the "Christian" leaders. Which religion (people) kills more humans I wonder?

Ok....my position on far right Christianity is well established at this point. However, in the modern world comparing radical Islam to radical Christianity (particularly in the western world) is just ludicrious. Sure, Christians have tossed a few pipe bombs at abortion clinics. However, by and large they stop short of murder. I've never seen a radical Christian saw a camera mans head off and hold it up for the Camera. They don't execute entire villages because 1 or 2 members choose a different religion. They don't fly planes into buildings. In short... while I detest (and actively resist) their attempts to corrupt our constitution with radical theological views, I still see the difference. Equating them with radical Islam only serves to further polarize us and helps to drive an even bigger wedge between left and right.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ok....my position on far right Christianity is well established at this point. However, in the modern world comparing radical Islam to radical Christianity (particularly in the western world) is just ludicrious. Sure, Christians have tossed a few pipe bombs at abortion clinics. However, by and large they stop short of murder. I've never seen a radical Christian saw a camera mans head off and hold it up for the Camera. They don't execute entire villages because 1 or 2 members choose a different religion. They don't fly planes into buildings. In short... while I detest (and actively resist) their attempts to corrupt our constitution with radical theological views, I still see the difference.

This is because radical Christians no longer need to do any of these kinds of things to assert themselves or to make their point.

All they have to do is snap their fingers and the leader of the free world interrupts his vacation to sign some nutty, unconstitutional piece of legislation they want.

Equating them with radical Islam only serves to further polarize us and helps to drive an even bigger wedge between left and right.

Pointing out similarities in mindset isn't the same thing as "equating." It's dishonest to say that it is.

Bottom line: The terrorist acts you described are morally reprehensible and cannot be justified, but if we continue to focus exclusively on condemning the perps while ignoring their motivations, nothing is ever going to change.

The alternative? Kill or imprison everyone who opposes BushCo's murderous policies (that would include most of the world's population.)

[fido]

Says the genius who can't spell "you're".



We'd actually have a chance to all live together on this planet peacefully if people didn't have any reason to think their beliefs were superior to others IMO.

so very, very true, kinda sad actually

:'(

[alkemical]

Not as long as people insist on "worshipping" invisible beings that have no bearing on everyone's reality. By everyone's reality, I'm talking about reality that everyone (regardless of faith or the lack thereof) that everyone can observe...



Delusions of grandeur, perhaps...



IMO, it's not the same thing. Politics and sports are things that everyone can see, feel, taste, smell, etc.. Differences arise due to perception, bias, "homerism", etc.; they don't rise to the level of killing the "infidels" or "spreading the good news of JC & The Boys". The human race needs to evolve and get past these relics of yesteryear if we ever want to live in peace and harmony. Wars, in general, have their time and place. Differences over who's god is more powerful, most compassionate, most loving, most beneficent, etc., have never been and never will be a good reason for even one person's blood to be shed. That's the reality I'd like to see...



I couldn't be a believer any more than I could be a Chiefs fan...


So basically you want the world to convert to athiesm and then it would be a better place. Gee, where i have i heard that message in a different wrapper before? ;)



You offer no difference in idelogical conformity. What is needed is a middle-ages idelogical revolution in which ideas are shared, not clubbed into ya.

[epicSocialism4tw]

So basically you want the world to convert to athiesm and then it would be a better place. Gee, where i have i heard that message in a different wrapper before? ;)
You offer no difference in idelogical conformity. What is needed is a middle-ages idelogical revolution in which ideas are shared, not clubbed into ya.

Take this, Ames! thwack :chairhit: :bash: :smashpats

[alkemical]

lol

[enjolras]

This is because radical Christians no longer need to do any of these kinds of things to assert themselves or to make their point.

All they have to do is snap their fingers and the leader of the free world interrupts his vacation to sign some nutty, unconstitutional piece of legislation they want.

So you really think that the congregation of your local baptist or pentacostal church is a power vacuum away from sawing off heads? How many of your evangelical co-workers are ready to strap themselves full of explosives and go kill as many innocent people as possible?

Christianity has a violent past... no question. However, today there is absolutely no comparison. Both are extremists, both are dangerous, but only one group has shown a tremendous propensity for mass murder.

[epicSocialism4tw]

So you really think that the congregation of your local baptist or pentacostal church is a power vacuum away from sawing off heads? How many of your evangelical co-workers are ready to strap themselves full of explosives and go kill as many innocent people as possible?

Christianity has a violent past... no question. However, today there is absolutely no comparison. Both are extremists, both are dangerous, but only one group has shown a tremendous propensity for mass murder.


One of the major philosophical principles that separates modern Christianity and Islam at large, is the glorification of Jesus' "Golden Rule", and the interpretation of Jesus' teachings on Godly behavior. Modern Protestant and Catholic interpretation of Godly behavior is to treat others with the same behavior that you yourself would want to receive. Not only that, but to pray for your enemies, and to be willing to do what it takes to make peace with a willing party.

This doesnt seem to be the case in modern Islam. Their leaders are using their platform to preach intolerance and violent conversion. Some say that this is just a few isolated groups that dont represent the whole, but there are facts that stand in opposition to that idea. The Muslim world enjoys the coverage of the beheading of westerners, and the general violent presentation of the opposition to America. We know that because Al-Jazeera's ratings are great when they present these stories. We can also deduce that there are problems because we arent hearing moderate muslim leaders making attempts to publicize opposition to terrorism. We are hearing a bunch of excuses and deflection of blame. None of their leaders will stand against it.

[alkemical]

If you followed a religion and didn't live... in a western culture - and the say (at most) is 10-15% of your cult is extremley violent -

would you speak out knowing that it would result in your family being raped and beheaded?

I think it could make it a tough call.....

[epicSocialism4tw]

If you followed a religion and didn't live... in a western culture - and the say (at most) is 10-15% of your cult is extremley violent -

would you speak out knowing that it would result in your family being raped and beheaded?

I think it could make it a tough call.....

I am having trouble finding the 85-90% of Muslims in the west who have chosen to stand at opposition to the state of Islam in the middle east. Show me a person who has made a stand against these people in Britain, America, or another Western nation. In Britain and France, Muslims can buy or rent Al-Qaeda propaganda videos in video rental stores and Muslims get upset at the idea that those things arent appropriate.

[sonsofkraftybob]

Most major wars were fought in the name of religion. The Crusades, WWII european theatre, arabs/Isrealis, Irelands catholics and Protestants, All sorts of African wars.

It's a sobering thought

[epicSocialism4tw]

Most major wars were fought in the name of religion. The Crusades, WWII european theatre, arabs/Isrealis, Irelands catholics and Protestants, All sorts of African wars.

It's a sobering thought

That's quite a shallow take on the reason for those wars. It's also quite a stretch to say that "most major wars" are fought in the name of religion, and it's a jump in logic to go from "religion is involved in wars" to "religion is the cause of wars."

[sonsofkraftybob]

That's quite a shallow take on the reason for those wars. It's also quite a stretch to say that "most major wars" are fought in the name of religion, and it's a jump in logic to go from "religion is involved in wars" to "religion is the cause of wars."

Neverthess, religion makes it personal. hence more to fight for.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ok....my position on far right Christianity is well established at this point. However, in the modern world comparing radical Islam to radical Christianity (particularly in the western world) is just ludicrious. Sure, Christians have tossed a few pipe bombs at abortion clinics. However, by and large they stop short of murder. I've never seen a radical Christian saw a camera mans head off and hold it up for the Camera. They don't execute entire villages because 1 or 2 members choose a different religion. They don't fly planes into buildings. In short... while I detest (and actively resist) their attempts to corrupt our constitution with radical theological views, I still see the difference. Equating them with radical Islam only serves to further polarize us and helps to drive an even bigger wedge between left and right.
No, my point was on how many each kills in the name of "goodness and religion", not how they kill.

[mosca]

I am having trouble finding the 85-90% of Muslims in the west who have chosen to stand at opposition to the state of Islam in the middle east. Show me a person who has made a stand against these people in Britain, America, or another Western nation.
Go talk to some Muslims face to face and see what their opinion on it is. You'll probably find that most oppose the oppressive, fundamentalist Islam that exists over there. Probably explains why they're here, not there. But it probably only extends to that, a personal opinion. Most people are too busy with their everyday lives to spend all their time protesting about the state of things in the world. I don't know how far you want these people to go in "making a stand" against a political system that exists halfway around the globe. Most probably are spending most of their energy on school, careers, and/or family instead being the political operatives that you seem to suggest they should be.

Even then, it's not the Muslims living over here in the West who are going to change the attitudes of the people in the Middle East. The people there are going to have to do that on their own.

[sonsofkraftybob]

Go talk to some Muslims face to face and see what their opinion on it is. You'll probably find that most oppose the oppressive, fundamentalist Islam that exists over there. .

If it were only a vocal minority, then the majority should have no trouble reigning them in.....if they really wanted to, that is.

[mosca]

If it were only a vocal minority, then the majority should have no trouble reigning them in.....if they really wanted to, that is.
If what were a vocal minority... those supporting the oppressive state of Islam in the Middle East or those against it?

[sonsofkraftybob]

If what were a vocal minority... those supporting the oppressive state of Islam in the Middle East or those against it?

Muslims who oppose radical Islam. If they are the majority then why do they sit idily by while the vocal minority (terrorists) drag their name through the mud and basically put them into a position where.....eventually it will be full blown holy war where, if that were ever to be the case, the outcome will not be pretty for them.

[alkemical]

I am having trouble finding the 85-90% of Muslims in the west who have chosen to stand at opposition to the state of Islam in the middle east. Show me a person who has made a stand against these people in Britain, America, or another Western nation. In Britain and France, Muslims can buy or rent Al-Qaeda propaganda videos in video rental stores and Muslims get upset at the idea that those things arent appropriate.



Uhm, i believe that i've read, seen on limited tv and radio of groups stating that the violent way isn't the way.

Now why don't you uhm, address the rest of my post - apply the 'minoirty' of speaking out and what would happen to them in the M.E if they did. Put yourself in that situation and tell me if you'd speak out if you knew you'd face violent reprocussions.

What do you want those in the west to do? Start killing extremists?

[mosca]

Muslims who oppose radical Islam. If they are the majority then why do they sit idily by while the vocal minority (terrorists) drag their name through the mud and basically put them into a position where.....eventually it will be full blown holy war where, if that were ever to be the case, the outcome will not be pretty for them.
So you're telling me that everyday average Joe Muslims, particularly the ones in the West, who have jobs/families/priorities are gonna forget all about these, stop what they're doing, in order to do something to stop some terrorists halfway around the world who are dragging their name through the mud? What do you propose they do, specifically? Just because the media doesn't give them (or me or you) a mouthpiece to say that they oppose what's going on doesn't mean that they don't.

[orangenblue2]

So basically you want the world to convert to athiesm and then it would be a better place. Gee, where i have i heard that message in a different wrapper before? ;)[QUOTE]

Wrong. There is no such thing as a "conversion" to atheism. However, I would allow that this planet would be infinitely better off if everyone woke up in the morning without the yoke of religion around their necks. Psychos wouldn't fly into tall buildings, maniacs wouldn't bomb abortion clinics, people of different cultures and skin colors wouldn't squabble about "holy" sites or who has a right to be "there", and all humanity wouldn't give a flying **** about what some octegenarian in a goofy hat had to say about the "one true religion" or it's homicidal "prophet". You see, I look at all religions with an equal amount of skepticism and incredulity. I personally find it hard to believe that there are approximately 2.1 billion people who consider themselves "christian", and 1.3 billion who claim to be muslim. Can you guess what the third largest group is? That's right...atheist/agnostic/secular. How many of us are there? Try 1.1 billion on for size. That figure gives me hope. As for my message, I don't have one; save this, We are all atheists when it comes to other's religions. I just disbelieve them all..." Let's think about that for a second. Do you think the christians on this board believe in mohammed and the quran? Do jews worship jah? Do scientologists believe in the hindu idea of reincarnation? No, everyone thinks every other religion or belief structure, besides theirs, is nutty. Is ridiculous. Is insane. Guess what, I'm tired of all of them. There lies not a shred of evidence to support any one of them over another, so I choose to reject them all. That's not a "message in a different wrapper". It is the only reasonable, sane response to a world spiralling out of control with religious fervor.



[QUOTE=claviculasolomonis]You offer no difference in idelogical conformity. What is needed is a middle-ages idelogical revolution in which ideas are shared, not clubbed into ya. How can you "share" ideas when people are willing to kill and be killed over their differences about whose non-existent god is better???

[epicSocialism4tw]

[QUOTE=claviculasolomonis;1278922]So basically you want the world to convert to athiesm and then it would be a better place. Gee, where i have i heard that message in a different wrapper before? ;)[QUOTE]

Wrong. There is no such thing as a "conversion" to atheism. However, I would allow that this planet would be infinitely better off if everyone woke up in the morning without the yoke of religion around their necks. Psychos wouldn't fly into tall buildings, maniacs wouldn't bomb abortion clinics, people of different cultures and skin colors wouldn't squabble about "holy" sites or who has a right to be "there", and all humanity wouldn't give a flying **** about what some octegenarian in a goofy hat had to say about the "one true religion" or it's homicidal "prophet". You see, I look at all religions with an equal amount of skepticism and incredulity. I personally find it hard to believe that there are approximately 2.1 billion people who consider themselves "christian", and 1.3 billion who claim to be muslim. Can you guess what the third largest group is? That's right...atheist/agnostic/secular. How many of us are there? Try 1.1 billion on for size. That figure gives me hope. As for my message, I don't have one; save this, We are all atheists when it comes to other's religions. I just disbelieve them all..." Let's think about that for a second. Do you think the christians on this board believe in mohammed and the quran? Do jews worship jah? Do scientologists believe in the hindu idea of reincarnation? No, everyone thinks every other religion or belief structure, besides theirs, is nutty. Is ridiculous. Is insane. Guess what, I'm tired of all of them. There lies not a shred of evidence to support any one of them over another, so I choose to reject them all. That's not a "message in a different wrapper". It is the only reasonable, sane response to a world spiralling out of control with religious fervor.
How can you "share" ideas when people are willing to kill and be killed over their differences about whose non-existent god is better???

Atheism is based on a similar set of deductions. It is a philosophy too.

[orangenblue2]

[QUOTE=orangenblue2;1279550][QUOTE=claviculasolomonis;1278922]So basically you want the world to convert to athiesm and then it would be a better place. Gee, where i have i heard that message in a different wrapper before? ;)

Atheism is based on a similar set of deductions. It is a philosophy too.

Whatever, Llama. I don't give a rat's ass what you want to pigeon-hole atheism as. Call it whatever you want. I'm an atheist simply because there is no evidence that proves the existence of any deity. Nice try though. Instead of trying to argue semantics and philosophy questions, let's get to the nitty gritty. You obviously consider yourself to be a "christian" so why don't you answer these questions?

Are muslims going to the christian heaven??? If yes, why...if no, why not...

Do infants who die without being baptised go to heaven? If yes, why...if no, why not...

Do members of far-flung Amazon forest tribes (who have never had a chance to learn about JC & the Boys) deserve to spend all of eternity in Hell because they haven't accepted JC as their "lord and savior"? If yes, enlighten us...if no, give it a try

Does geography and culture have more to do with which "religion" you become; or do certain "peoples" just know the "one true way"?

Does islam's version of heaven (with the attendent 72 virgins catering to your every whim), or christianity's version (streets paved with gold, magical winged creatures, etc.) sound better to you? Which sounds more improbable??? Why???

I could go on all night, but I'll anxiously await you response to these first few...





Are

[BroncoBuff]

The Pope is an idiot, and people are dying because of it. Many, many more may die soon.

For the non-Catholics here, you should know that our faith holds the Pope to be "The Infallible Vicar of Christ." And as such, no Pope should spend much time, any time, quoting OTHER people, especially 12th century Turkixh ... monks (?)


Idiot.

[SteveTensi13]

THERE IS NO TERRORIST THREAT!

-Michael Moore

[Atlas]

The Pope is an idiot, and people are dying because of it. Many, many more may die soon.

For the non-Catholics here, you should know that our faith holds the Pope to be "The Infallible Vicar of Christ." And as such, no Pope should spend much time, any time, quoting OTHER people, especially 12th century Turkixh ... monks (?)


Idiot.

I kind of agree and disagree. I mean lets face it BB should those of us tip toe around muslims watching every word we say because they have a large sect that is irrational, violent and looking for any misstep to pounce on so they can kill people??

I mean the Pope lives in a free country and I live in a free country. If I want to say that I think the Muslim faith is being corrupted by terrorist and if I want to talk bad about Muhamed and the whole Islam religion as a whole I BELEIVE that is my right. Screw all those Muslim bastards that are killing because of what the Pope said.

The Pope didn't kill anyone. All he did was speak. And speaking your mind is something that everyone of us should be able to do. Especially when you speak the truth.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

THERE IS NO TERRORIST THREAT!

-Michael Moore

Where/when did he say this?

Link?

[BroncoBuff]

I kind of agree and disagree. I mean lets face it BB should those of us tip toe around muslims watching every word we say because they have a large sect that is irrational, violent and looking for any misstep to pounce on so they can kill people??

I mean the Pope lives in a free country and I live in a free country. If I want to say that I think the Muslim faith is being corrupted by terrorist and if I want to talk bad about Muhamed and the whole Islam religion as a whole I BELEIVE that is my right. Screw all those Muslim bastards that are killing because of what the Pope said.

The Pope didn't kill anyone. All he did was speak. And speaking your mind is something that everyone of us should be able to do. Especially when you speak the truth.

In a perfect world, everything you say is correct .... I just wish he had been SMARTER about it. But instead, he just HAD TO MENTION THE PROPHET! (see red above)

They are very touchy about mentioning/depicting/referring to Mohammed! Don't we ALL know that by now? Are they "too touchy"? Maybe. But when does "too touchy" crossover with being offended? That's a very thin and indiscrenable line in all aspects of human endeavor. Do you joke with an overweight friend, for example, when driving in a car with a group , "uh, oh ... I better speed up past this fast food row so Bob can't jump outta the car!" Yeah, very funny Uhh

How many times have we all heard the excuse: "I was just kidding!"

If you want to be critical/get involved with others ... BE SMART ABOUT IT!

Get Bob alone and say, "I worry about your health, man ... can I help in any way? Wanna work out together?"
Step away from Mohammad insluts, Joey Ratz ... try this: "The Catholic faith loves and respects our Muslim brothers and indeed all men of God. But we condemn as evil the elements of all faiths that do violence of any kind in the name of their God."

[defenseman]

I'm guessing we won't see any Muslim outcry over this, despite the outcry over disrespectful cartoons of their prophet...double standards suck.

http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A2D5F059-EB04-43E3-9ADF-1ED7F5AD6345.htm

The "moderate" muslims, aka Detroit muslims...etc...etc..., are pretty much gutless. There are plenty others out there. They won't roger up to the hypocrisy for fear of reprisal/death. Pretty sad actually. Even the moderates can't stand up for what is right, or discredit the extremists giving their religion a bad name. Quiet a "peaceful" religion they have going there, gutless and truly living by the sword is exactly what it is...dman

[alkemical]

[QUOTE=claviculasolomonis;1278922]So basically you want the world to convert to athiesm and then it would be a better place. Gee, where i have i heard that message in a different wrapper before? ;)[QUOTE]

Wrong. There is no such thing as a "conversion" to atheism. However, I would allow that this planet would be infinitely better off if everyone woke up in the morning without the yoke of religion around their necks. Psychos wouldn't fly into tall buildings, maniacs wouldn't bomb abortion clinics, people of different cultures and skin colors wouldn't squabble about "holy" sites or who has a right to be "there", and all humanity wouldn't give a flying **** about what some octegenarian in a goofy hat had to say about the "one true religion" or it's homicidal "prophet". You see, I look at all religions with an equal amount of skepticism and incredulity. I personally find it hard to believe that there are approximately 2.1 billion people who consider themselves "christian", and 1.3 billion who claim to be muslim. Can you guess what the third largest group is? That's right...atheist/agnostic/secular. How many of us are there? Try 1.1 billion on for size. That figure gives me hope. As for my message, I don't have one; save this, We are all atheists when it comes to other's religions. I just disbelieve them all..." Let's think about that for a second. Do you think the christians on this board believe in mohammed and the quran? Do jews worship jah? Do scientologists believe in the hindu idea of reincarnation? No, everyone thinks every other religion or belief structure, besides theirs, is nutty. Is ridiculous. Is insane. Guess what, I'm tired of all of them. There lies not a shred of evidence to support any one of them over another, so I choose to reject them all. That's not a "message in a different wrapper". It is the only reasonable, sane response to a world spiralling out of control with religious fervor.



How can you "share" ideas when people are willing to kill and be killed over their differences about whose non-existent god is better???



OB2: There is no such thing as a "conversion" to atheism.

Really, so how would you get religious/spiritual people to the point of athiesm? So your dream of a world with no religion is really the same root principle of the conformity that fundamentalists want.


Don't forget about the approx 1 billion hindu's either.....


Fundamentalists may not, but i've studied pretty much the major religions for the last 10-15 years and i have had not much problems in disucssion with others on their religions all the time. I run into (as always) - those who can't. But i find that even in athiests you have the same psycological 'barriers' that 'they' have. (as in all are wrong, but yours - )

And puhlease - not everyone will kill you for being a heathen - but i have run into a few that did make believe they were going to burn me at the stake a time or two.

So really humans will hate for something, if not religion - than race - if not race than penis size.


Check out howard blooms 'lucifer principal" - it's not relgious at all - and it's a pretty good book.


Of course my opinion of god is really not so much 'typical' - but religion has existed since the dawn of man, and the psycological need to 'believe' will always attatch itself to some idea that is not tangible. Even the belief to disbelieve is a belief system and structure.

That's why you get upset at llama when he calls athiesm a relgion and philosphy. Even unbeliefs are beliefs and have a system that alters your psycological make up that influences your decsions, views, etc -

Now that being said, i defend your right to unbelieve - just as i defend my right to practice what i practice - the only problem i have - like you and anyone else - is when ya try to shove it down my throat.

PS - in some ways you sound just like a religious man "My way (athiesim) is the true way to a better world"

PPS - dont forget to laugh at your unbeliefs - they line up with unbirthday's too

[RaiderH8r]

In a perfect world, everything you say is correct .... I just wish he had been SMARTER about it. But instead, he just HAD TO MENTION THE PROPHET! (see red above)

They are very touchy about mentioning/depicting/referring to Mohammed! Don't we ALL know that by now? Are they "too touchy"? Maybe. But when does "too touchy" crossover with being offended? That's a very thin and indiscrenable line in all aspects of human endeavor. Do you joke with an overweight friend, for example, when driving in a car with a group , "uh, oh ... I better speed up past this fast food row so Bob can't jump outta the car!" Yeah, very funny Uhh

How many times have we all heard the excuse: "I was just kidding!"

If you want to be critical/get involved with others ... BE SMART ABOUT IT!

Get Bob alone and say, "I worry about your health, man ... can I help in any way? Wanna work out together?"
Step away from Mohammad insluts, Joey Ratz ... try this: "The Catholic faith loves and respects our Muslim brothers and indeed all men of God. But we condemn as evil the elements of all faiths that do violence of any kind in the name of their God."


No other religion is afforded the luxury of being handled with kid gloves because they are "touchy". Why? Because they don't act like petulent little children. Take a look at papers in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and have a gander at what they have to say about Jews. Check out what is said about Jews over there, it sounds like a damn Klan rally. Why on earth would we tolerate from Muslims what we would NEVER tolerate from our own people?

And, for clarification, radical Islam is not "touchy". Touchy is getting a little irritated over mundane and trite insults. Radical islam is f***ing nuts. Certifiably whacko and evil in their intentions...not touchy.

The speech in which the quote was made should be taken in its entirety. He castigated violent elements of all faiths before getting to the touchy ones. He spoke of the logical v. transcendant God as viewed by different religions. He quoted a 14th cent. Byzantine emperor regarding Islam....and to demonstrate how wrong the Pope was, they went out and burned some sh!t, threatened some lives, and beheaded a nun. I mean honestly...WTF?

[epicSocialism4tw]

No other religion is afforded the luxury of being handled with kid gloves because they are "touchy". Why? Because they don't act like petulent little children. Take a look at papers in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and have a gander at what they have to say about Jews. Check out what is said about Jews over there, it sounds like a damn Klan rally. Why on earth would we tolerate from Muslims what we would NEVER tolerate from our own people?

And, for clarification, radical Islam is not "touchy". Touchy is getting a little irritated over mundane and trite insults. Radical islam is ****ing nuts. Certifiably whacko and evil in their intentions...not touchy.

The speech in which the quote was made should be taken in its entirety. He castigated violent elements of all faiths before getting to the touchy ones. He spoke of the logical v. transcendant God as viewed by different religions. He quoted a 14th cent. Byzantine emperor regarding Islam....and to demonstrate how wrong the Pope was, they went out and burned some sh!t, threatened some lives, and beheaded a nun. I mean honestly...WTF?


Rep.

[W*GS]

Where/when did he say this?

Link?

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Moore

"There is no terrorist threat. There is no terrorist threat. Yes, there have been horrific acts, of terrorism and yes there will be horrific acts again. But that does not mean that there's some massive terrorist threat." -- Power Center, Michigan, at unveiling of Dude, Where's My Country? (2003)

[BroncoBuff]

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Moore

"There is no terrorist threat. There is no terrorist threat. Yes, there have been horrific acts, of terrorism and yes there will be horrific acts again. But that does not mean that there's some massive terrorist threat." -- Power Center, Michigan, at unveiling of Dude, Where's My Country? (2003)
In large measure, I agree with Moore. And FWIW, he didn't literally mean "NO" threat ... that was an absurdist-styled exaggeration to make a point. If I may, this point: There are 300 million people in these United States, and virtually none - and I mean so very few that it's on a "lottery winner" scale of few - are in any real danger. The threat of "death by cigarettes" or "death in car accidents" dwarfs the threat of terrorism by a factor of hundereds of thousands. Even a person's astonishingly slim chance of dying in a plane crash DWARFS the likelihood you'll die in a domestic terror attack (using time spent on the aircraft vs. time spent in USA as the sample).

The fear that has been manufactured about potential terror attacks is political in nature, and has been manipulated for political advantage, especially in the six weeks preceding the last presidential election, when we were subjected to - what, 5 or 6 "Orange Alerts," and then there were none for the 8 months after the election?

Terror attacks (esp 9/11) are so hyper-dramatic in nature, that they're given radically skewed attention and provoke radically-skewed fear.

For example: the 3 alligator deaths in quick succession in Florida in July ... that threat is actually LESS THAN the terror threat - but CNN and MSNBC spent hours on the topic. Meanwhile, REAL threats - like smoking cigarettes and car travel without a seat belt - get very little publicity, compared to gators and terrorists, even though they are a million times greater dangers.

[BroncoBuff]

No other religion is afforded the luxury of being handled with kid gloves because they are "touchy". Why? Because they don't act like petulent little children. Take a look at papers in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and have a gander at what they have to say about Jews. Check out what is said about Jews over there, it sounds like a damn Klan rally. Why on earth would we tolerate from Muslims what we would NEVER tolerate from our own people?

And, for clarification, radical Islam is not "touchy". Touchy is getting a little irritated over mundane and trite insults. Radical islam is ****ing nuts. Certifiably whacko and evil in their intentions...not touchy. I mean honestly...WTF?
I can't argue with a single word there .... or with llama or with Atlas. I fundamentally agree. But I still say we should SMART about what we say. FOR EXAMLPE: - In this example, let's liken Muslims to 4 year-old children ... an excellent comparison on many levels.

Most 4 year-olds I've been around HATE to go to bed. They sometimes throw loud and even violent fits and tantrums to protest having to go to bed. To avoid this, should we:

Remind them every 20 minutes starting at 5 pm that "bedtime is coming, almost time for bed!" ...OR ...
Should you sllowly ratchet back their sensory input ... eg, TV volume, activities, etc.. beginning at about 7, hoping that by 8:30 or so they'll be relaxed and maybe even tired?


By comparison - Muslims in general, and extremists in particular, HATE it when you talk about/depict/quote the prophet Mohammed. They sometimes throw loud and even violent fits and tantrums to protest when we do so. To avoid this, should we:

Again and again criticize, citing ancient texts to "prove" we're right, and lampoon in cartoons their prophet? ...OR...
Should we calmly and repeatedly express our respect for their faith, wihle drumming home the point that any violence in the name of any God is an affront to mankind?



Hopefully one day the kids will grow up. Hopefully one day the Muslim world will become educated and tolerant. In the meantime, for our own sakes, let's be SMART about it.

[RaiderH8r]

I can't argue with a single word there .... or with llama or with Atlas. I fundamentally agree. But I still say we should SMART about what we say. FOR EXAMLPE: - In this example, let's liken Muslims to 4 year-old children ... an excellent comparison on many levels.

Most 4 year-olds I've been around HATE to go to bed. They sometimes throw loud and even violent fits and tantrums to protest having to go to bed. To avoid this, should we:

Remind them every 20 minutes starting at 5 pm that "bedtime is coming, almost time for bed!" ...OR ...
Should you sllowly ratchet back their sensory input ... eg, TV volume, activities, etc.. beginning at about 7, hoping that by 8:30 or so they'll be relaxed and maybe even tired?


By comparison - Muslims in general, and extremists in particular, HATE it when you talk about/depict/quote the prophet Mohammed. They sometimes throw loud and even violent fits and tantrums to protest when we do so. To avoid this, should we:

Again and again criticize, citing ancient texts to "prove" we're right, and lampoon in cartoons their prophet? ...OR...
Should we calmly and repeatedly express our respect for their faith, wihle drumming home the point that any violence in the name of any God is an affront to mankind?



Hopefully one day the kids will grow up. Hopefully one day the Muslim world will become educated and tolerant. In the meantime, for our own sakes, let's be SMART about it.

If the Pope's comments weren't so dead on accurate I might be willing to concede the point. However, the question remains. Why encourage petulent behavior by capitulating to it? Responsibility for their actions remains their own. Why hasn't someone, somewhere pointed out the absuridity of the response in proportion to the perceived infraction? Why do we tolerate anti-semitic rhetoric from Muslims when we would never (rightly so) do so otherwise?

The fundamental flaw in your analogy is that the 4 year old doesn't have guns and bombs. The 4 year old's temper tantrum is annoying, may break an item or two around the house, and runs its course in about an hour. The tantrums in the Middle East result in dead civilians, dead children, threats upon all manner of people, riots, and tend to go on for weeks, months, years, or even decades.

What's more is that too many people in the West have come to accept these tantrums as a matter of course in dealing with Islam and turn around and demand apologies, side by side with murdering thugs, from the Pope in a vain attempt to avert yet another tantrum lest they too feel the ire of the murderous thugs. I'm sick of it, sometimes the child needs a spanking...well, time to ante up, the brainchild of Mohammad needs a spanking and if the moderates of their faith are too cowardly to do it perhaps its incumbant upon the human race as a whole to demonstrate that behavior such as this has no place in civilized society. Perhaps its time they felt the need to assuage our feelings lest they feel our ire. Yeah, I like my way better.

[DBruleU]

In large measure, I agree with Moore. And FWIW, he didn't literally mean "NO" threat ... that was an absurdist-styled exaggeration to make a point. If I may, this point: There are 300 million people in these United States, and virtually none - and I mean so very few that it's on a "lottery winner" scale of few - are in any real danger. The threat of "death by cigarettes" or "death in car accidents" dwarfs the threat of terrorism by a factor of hundereds of thousands. Even a person's astonishingly slim chance of dying in a plane crash DWARFS the likelihood you'll die in a domestic terror attack (using time spent on the aircraft vs. time spent in USA as the sample).

The fear that has been manufactured about potential terror attacks is political in nature, and has been manipulated for political advantage, especially in the six weeks preceding the last presidential election, when we were subjected to - what, 5 or 6 "Orange Alerts," and then there were none for the 8 months after the election?

Terror attacks (esp 9/11) are so hyper-dramatic in nature, that they're given radically skewed attention and provoke radically-skewed fear.

For example: the 3 alligator deaths in quick succession in Florida in July ... that threat is actually LESS THAN the terror threat - but CNN and MSNBC spent hours on the topic. Meanwhile, REAL threats - like smoking cigarettes and car travel without a seat belt - get very little publicity, compared to gators and terrorists, even though they are a million times greater dangers.


Ok, well you libs can continue to be naive when it comes to this subject, and leave the terrorist ass-kicking to the repubs.

If there is no threat, then what was the thwarted plane hijacking from England? That was another direct threat to us. What's it going to take to realize that we will always be a target by these islamic fascists? Another 9-11 till we really wise up?

[Rohirrim]

The specific creed of the Sulafists is to kill infidels and restore the caliphate world wide. If you don't believe what they believe, you are an infidel. You can hire Dr. Phil to preach to them until he's blue in the face. When he's done, they'll slit his throat. And then they'll slit his children's throats.

I once had a bunch of rats infesting a wood pile out by the garage. I took apart the pile, killed all the rats with a shovel, buried them, cleaned the shovel, washed my hands, and went in the house and had dinner. I look at those sulafists with the same attitude.

I'm what you call a fallen Catholic. I couldn't care less about the pope, or anything he has to say. But I have to agree with him on this one. And I have to agree with that Byzantine emperor. Islam is a religion of death, but it is also dead itself, which is why its adherents are so manic. It is an anachronism, and they know it. Humanity is evolving beyond the sort of primitavism that religion represents. In time, we will shed it, just like we have shed animal sacrifice to the Gods. In the meantime, there will be upheavals and chaos, as there always is during times of transition.

[orangenblue2]

OB2: There is no such thing as a "conversion" to atheism.

Really, so how would you get religious/spiritual people to the point of athiesm? So your dream of a world with no religion is really the same root principle of the conformity that fundamentalists want.

Sorry, I should have clarified my statement. By no "conversion", I simply meant that there isn't any kind of ceremony, blessing, etc.. Secondly, the only "root principle" I would want would be the adherence to Reason and Rationality; neither of which is to be found in any religion that speaks of all-powerful deities who are intimately involved in the day-to-day happenings of billions of human beings.


Don't forget about the approx 1 billion hindu's either.....

I haven't. Nor have I forgotten the jews, the sikhs, the buddhists, etc.


But i find that even in athiests you have the same psycological 'barriers' that 'they' have. (as in all are wrong, but yours - )

I have no barriers. Religion just doesn't pass the test when it comes to reason and rationality.

And puhlease - not everyone will kill you for being a heathen - but i have run into a few that did make believe they were going to burn me at the stake a time or two.

I never said "everyone". I personally am not worried about being "killed" for being a heathen, but there are people in this big world of ours who are being killed and are being taught to kill in their religion's name.

So really humans will hate for something, if not religion - than race - if not race than penis size.

Unfortunately, you're right, but let's not add to the problems by comparing the size of my or your god's schwanz.


Of course my opinion of god is really not so much 'typical' - but religion has existed since the dawn of man, and the psycological need to 'believe' will always attatch itself to some idea that is not tangible. Even the belief to disbelieve is a belief system and structure.

That's why you get upset at llama when he calls athiesm a relgion and philosphy. Even unbeliefs are beliefs and have a system that alters your psycological make up that influences your decsions, views, etc -

Worshipping things has been going on forever. Thousands, literally thousands, of gods, goddesses, and religions have come and gone. For good reason. People rejected them for what they were and weren't. The whole gist of what I'm saying can be summed up by a quote from Penn Jillette of Penn & Teller fame:

"Without God, we can all agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do."...Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future."

I love those sentiments...:peace:

[epicSocialism4tw]

I have no barriers. Religion just doesn't pass the test when it comes to reason and rationality.

Tell that to Einstein or Newton. Darwin or Mendel. Galileo. Those are just the scientists. When you start looking at popular philosophy, the list grows exponentially.

Religious philosophy and rational thought arent mutually exclusive. That's a misconception that maybe you alone have embraced.

[alkemical]

Sorry, I should have clarified my statement. By no "conversion", I simply meant that there isn't any kind of ceremony, blessing, etc.. Secondly, the only "root principle" I would want would be the adherence to Reason and Rationality; neither of which is to be found in any religion that speaks of all-powerful deities who are intimately involved in the day-to-day happenings of billions of human beings.




I haven't. Nor have I forgotten the jews, the sikhs, the buddhists, etc.




I have no barriers. Religion just doesn't pass the test when it comes to reason and rationality.



I never said "everyone". I personally am not worried about being "killed" for being a heathen, but there are people in this big world of ours who are being killed and are being taught to kill in their religion's name.



Unfortunately, you're right, but let's not add to the problems by comparing the size of my or your god's schwanz.




Worshipping things has been going on forever. Thousands, literally thousands, of gods, goddesses, and religions have come and gone. For good reason. People rejected them for what they were and weren't. The whole gist of what I'm saying can be summed up by a quote from Penn Jillette of Penn & Teller fame:

"Without God, we can all agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do."...Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future."

I love those sentiments...:peace:



A) Conversion: But an "awakening" that happens in buddism has no ceremony. There is lots of reason and rationality that can be learned that is presented in religion. You just have to learn that sometimes, it's asop's fables.

B) Reason & Rationality wrt Religion: Comparison: Love would not fit this. It is not a tangible object. It has no property that can be measured any more or less than "faith". So does that mean love doesn't exist?

C) Nobody can agree on reality when reality is subjective through the individuals eyes that expierence it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

In large measure, I agree with Moore. And FWIW, he didn't literally mean "NO" threat ... that was an absurdist-styled exaggeration to make a point.

That's correct.

But leave it to The O'W*GS Factor to either miss or misrepresent the point.

(And leave it to his soulmate SteveCoulter13 to take it completely out of context.)

[Atlas]

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Moore

"There is no terrorist threat. There is no terrorist threat. Yes, there have been horrific acts, of terrorism and yes there will be horrific acts again. But that does not mean that there's some massive terrorist threat." -- Power Center, Michigan, at unveiling of Dude, Where's My Country? (2003)


Michael Moore?? That's the best you can do? I could pull up any of 1000 religious republican nut cases with far more ludicrise things to say.

[RaiderH8r]

Michael Moore?? That's the best you can do? I could pull up any of 1000 religious republican nut cases with far more ludicrise things to say.

1 or 1000 doesn't matter what the affiliation is, stupid is stupid and they have that in common.

[cbs1177]

Okay we all convert to Muslims which sect Sunni, Shi'ite, Sufi. Oh wait we have that in Chirstianity Baptist, Methodist, Luthereans except we don't genecide the other religious sects. Or overturn cars and burn businesses b/c of a poltical cartoon.

[Bronx33]

Okay we all convert to Muslims which sect Sunni, Shi'ite, Sufi. Oh wait we have that in Chirstianity Baptist, Methodist, Luthereans except we don't genecide the other religious sects. Or overturn cars and burn businesses b/c of a poltical cartoon.

Iam going to be very moderate.

[Bronx33]

If the Pope's comments weren't so dead on accurate I might be willing to concede the point. However, the question remains. Why encourage petulent behavior by capitulating to it? Responsibility for their actions remains their own. Why hasn't someone, somewhere pointed out the absuridity of the response in proportion to the perceived infraction? Why do we tolerate anti-semitic rhetoric from Muslims when we would never (rightly so) do so otherwise?

The fundamental flaw in your analogy is that the 4 year old doesn't have guns and bombs. The 4 year old's temper tantrum is annoying, may break an item or two around the house, and runs its course in about an hour. The tantrums in the Middle East result in dead civilians, dead children, threats upon all manner of people, riots, and tend to go on for weeks, months, years, or even decades.

What's more is that too many people in the West have come to accept these tantrums as a matter of course in dealing with Islam and turn around and demand apologies, side by side with murdering thugs, from the Pope in a vain attempt to avert yet another tantrum lest they too feel the ire of the murderous thugs. I'm sick of it, sometimes the child needs a spanking...well, time to ante up, the brainchild of Mohammad needs a spanking and if the moderates of their faith are too cowardly to do it perhaps its incumbant upon the human race as a whole to demonstrate that behavior such as this has no place in civilized society. Perhaps its time they felt the need to assuage our feelings lest they feel our ire. Yeah, I like my way better.


I think maybe the pope may be trying to get a few muslims to start spreading a better islam something to work against the warped one being fueled by fanatics now. No better way then to tell the truth and in this case it didn't take long for fanatics to prove his point.

[cbs1177]

Like I was saying the muslims hate each others guts to the point of open murder. I mean in America I really can't see the Methodist and Baptist shooting each other except in intercity softball leagues (just a sport folks) but muslims all others are game. The world is just one giant killing field nothing is holy enough not to kill.

[cbs1177]

Also a point in note that the USA backed Osama during the Cold war in Afghan and it came back to bite us so shall Iran in its support of Hellzobrah it too will come back to haunt them. history does repeat itself.

[alkemical]

Yeah i wrote a bit about that on my wramblin' post about karma

[orangenblue2]

Tell that to Einstein or Newton. Darwin or Mendel. Galileo. Those are just the scientists. When you start looking at popular philosophy, the list grows exponentially.

Religious philosophy and rational thought arent mutually exclusive. That's a misconception that maybe you alone have embraced.

I guess we'll just skip over post#44 and your answers to any of the questions...oh, that's right, you didn't answer any of them...as for this latest post...let's see what we can do:

I'm not sure if you are trying to claim that all these "scientists" were believers. If you are, then you are a moron at best, disengenous at worst.

Einstein: Was definitely not a christian. If anything, he was agnostic.

Newton: Certainly not a christian. Newton's views could at best be described as deist in nature. Of course, lets keep in mind that he did live in the 1600's.

Darwin: Obviously not a christian. Was definitely an agnostic if not outright atheist. Dude, the Lady Hope story has been refuted so many times that I can't believe that you even bring it up...

Mendel: Definitely anti-christian up until the time he joined the monastery. He joined because he was very poor and it afforded him an opportunity to study. Bought Darwin's book,Origin of the Species, and he fully accepted evolution. I shouldn't have to add that Darwin's views in the middle to late 1800's were anathema to the catholic church, of which Mendel was a supposed "devout benedictine monk and abbot".

Galileo: Very strange that you would even list him... Do you not know your history? Or are you banking on the fact that most readers of this board would not know their history, and would be impressed with a few names thrown around? For those who aren't historically learned, here is the quick version: Galileo was summoned to Rome to answer for his "heretical" belief that the earth rotated around the sun. This belief ran counter to the church's teaching that the Earth was the center of the universe. The 70 year-old Galileo was sent to the palace of the Inquisition where he subsequently recanted (under torture, or, at the least, the threat of torture). He was thereafter condemned to confinement for the rest of his life. Quite the endorsement...

What is infinitely more interesting, and applicable to 2006, is the percentage of 21st century scientists who are atheists. What Llama doesn't tell you (and I guarantee he knows) is that 93% of the members of the ultra-prestigious American National Academy of Sciences classify themselves as non-believers. Hmm, I guess those stupid bastards know less than someone who lived 300-400 years ago...

As to your "philosophy" point...First off, philosophy is literally defined as "love of wisdom". Notice that there is nothing in the definition about proof. Any of us who has taken even a remedial course in philosophy knows how dry and boring it can be. That being said, I'd assume that Llama would have everyone believe that all philosophers agree on the existence of a supernatural god. That isn't the case. Some atheist philosophers that you may have heard of include: Albert Camus, David Hume, Peter King, Nietzsche, Bertrand Russell, and Jean-Paul Sartre'. Does throwing out the names of brilliant philosophers (on either side) sway you. No, I didn't think so. Can we all agree that honestly searching for the truth for yourself is the best course of action???

Religious faith and rational thought are incompatible. I know the truth hurts, Llama. Honest answers to hard questions always are. I can feel that you are this close to just coming over to the rational side. I can see it in your non-answer answers to difficult questions; I can see it in your dredging up of old (and quite often discredited) canards of "scientists", "philosophers", and "atheism is a set of beliefs, too" bull****. You see, I don't want philisophical rants or obscure "pseudo-intellectual" crap about god. I want you to admit the obvious. That's it. Tell us you believe for psychological reasons that give you comfort and happiness, or that it helps you get over an irrational fear of death, or whatever... What religion isn't, and never will be, is a rational, reasonable explanation for the existence of mankind...

You are so sad sometimes. What is it about the truth and someone searching for it that scares you so???

[Bronx33]

Well....


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52102



JERUSALEM – Pope Benedict XVI's apologies for worldwide reaction to his remarks about Islam and his invitation today for Muslim leaders to meet with him next week are "mere diplomatic acts" and prove the pontiff does not really regret his words, a prominent Gaza Strip preacher told WND.

Sheik Abu Saqer, leader of Gaza's Jihadia Salafiya Islamic outreach movement, which seeks to make secular Muslims more religious, called for holy war against the pope.

He said Christian leaders such as Benedict are "afraid" because they realize Islam is Allah's favorite religion and they are going to hell unless they convert. The Gaza preacher declared the "green flag of Muhammad" would soon be raised over the Vatican.

"We did not need the words of the pope in order to understand that this is a Crusader war against Islam and it is our holy duty to fight all those who support the pope, who follow him and who did not condemn what this small racist had to say," said Abu Saqer, speaking to WND from the southern Gaza city of Khan Yunis.

"The day will soon come when the green flag of La Illah Illah Allah (There is no god but Allah) and Muhammad Rasul Allah (Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah) will be raised upon the Vatican and all around the world and on the fortresses of those who want to destroy Islam, because they know that this religion obliges them to face the truth that Islam is Allah's favorite religion. And until they join Islam, hell is their last station," Abu Saqer said.

(Story continues below)

The Gaza imam was responding to a speech last week in which the 79-year-old pope quoted Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus, who wrote, "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The pontiff last Sunday said he was "deeply sorry" for the reaction to his comments and said Wednesday the emperor's words did not reflect how he himself felt. He said the intent of his remarks were to call for a dialogue on the role of religions in modern life.

The Vatican this morning reportedly invited ambassadors from Muslim nations to meet the pope Monday in a bid to calm anger that has spilled over into international Muslim protests.

Last weekend, Palestinians wielding guns and firebombs attacked five churches in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, including Anglican and Greek Orthodox churches in the north Samaria city of Nablus and a Greek Orthodox church in Gaza City. A group calling itself the "Lions of Monotheism" claimed responsibility for the church attacks, saying they were carried out to protest the pope's remarks.

Abu Saqer said he rejected the pope's stated apologies.

"He did not apologize. He said everything but an apology, which proves these are diplomatic acts and not a feeling of being sorry."

Abu Saqer claimed he did not condone violence. He blamed the pope for recent anti-Christian attacks in the Palestinian territories.

"We are deeply sorry for these acts that we condemn," he said. "But I am sorry that this little racist did not think of the consequences upon the Christians in the Arab world when he insulted our prophet. It is an open war – the Muslims against all the others."

Asked to respond directly to Paleologus' observations about Muhammad and Islam, Abu Saqer replied, "About your stupid question about our contribution to civilization, did not you read about who were the pioneers in medicine, in mathematics, in astronomy? Did not you hear about Averroes and others?

"I am not reading poetry, I am saying the truth. Islam, it is not the source of violence. Who is occupying by force and violence Iraq and Afghanistan? Who is occupying Palestine? Who occupied for years the black people and turned them into slaves while one of the first leaders of Islam was the black Bilal Ibn Rabah?"

Continued Abu Saqer: "Violence is a result of lack of faith. See the Western society and culture. See what free sex brings to your Western world and then see the family cell in Islam. Even our problems in Islam come when some parts of the Islamic population want to imitate your way of life."

The Gaza preacher said the pope and the Christian world are "panicking" because they realize "who is winning."

"See how Islam is progressing and gaining more and more members and see the moral crisis in the West. See today the support of Islam in the Arab and Muslim world and how Islam is gaining more and more adherents in Europe and even in the United States and you understand that Islam is the future and that this dwarf pope was wrong. But I can sympathize with him. He is frustrated because he understands where things are heading."

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I know the truth hurts, Llama. Honest answers to hard questions always are. I can feel that you are this close to just coming over to the rational side. I can see it in your non-answer answers to difficult questions; I can see it in your dredging up of old (and quite often discredited) canards of "scientists", "philosophers", and "atheism is a set of beliefs, too" bull****.

The mad yak doesn't answer your questions because there are no answers for the "Christians" to these questions.

Like your questions, the Bible is a contradiction.

Their beliefs state that their God will forgive ANY sin of man (including raping and killing infants, etc...) EXCEPT not believing in THEIR version of GOD.

It's quite the conundrum for these Christians to have to ponder your simple questions and their faith.

[orangenblue2]

Well....


The Gaza preacher declared the "green flag of Muhammad" would soon be raised over the Vatican.

I believe it...I'll ask my mistress Jessica Alba when she comes over to watch the Broncos kick the crap out of the Patriots...Elway is bringing the chips and Floyd Little promises to bring some of his "lil' smokies"...

Religion...people actually believe it...

[orangenblue2]

Where is the Llama...???

[Bronx33]

Well the pope is proved right again.


http://www.aina.org/news/20060917014616.htm



Baghdad (AINA) -- Sources at Baghdad's Yarmouk Hospital announced on Saturday the death of a second Assyrian Christian who fell victim to multiple stab wounds at the Assyrian market in the Doura District. His murder comes a day after the attack on Syriac Catholic Church in the Ashar district of central Basra where another man was murdered.

Christian Leaders in Iraq have asked their parishioners to be extremely cautious and not to leave their homes as a new group called the young Brigades of Fundamental Islam ' has distributed papers announcing the slaying of all Iraqi Christians in three days if the Pope does not Apologize.

According to the insurgency-loyal news website, islammemo.cc, the bishop of the Syriac Catholic Church has also taken his plea to the central government of Iraq and the coalition forces in hopes that they intervene and offer protection to the native Christians.

[Bronx33]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1157913686275&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull



Palestinian police guarding a church in Nablus exchanged fire with assailants and chased them away early Saturday, witnesses said.

Shortly after midnight, the sound of heavy gun fire was heard outside the Roman Catholic Church in the West Bank city .

Resident Abdel Salam Abu Rob said police guarding the church were exchanging fire with wouldbe assailants. Police guards were posted at churches in the West Bank and Gaza last weekend, after a first spate of attacks.

Residents said they heard intensive fire for about 20 minutes. There were no immediate reports of injuries or damage to the church.

Ealier Friday evening, three small pipe bombs were thrown at a Greek Orthodox church in Gaza city , a church official and police said.

A church official in Gaza City, Nabil Ayad, said one bomb was thrown at the facade of the church, shattering glass windows of a nearby van. The main entrance was blackened.

Two other small bombs were thrown inside the church compound, Ayad said. The extent of damage was not clear yet, Ayad, the caretaker of the church said.

There were no reports of injuries. Police officials said the assailants hurled small pipe bombs at the church, which make a loud noise, but cause little damage.

The early morning shootout in Nablus came after a day of protests in the West Bank's largest city, as Hamas supporters took to the streets after prayers, shouting slogans against the pope and waving Hamas flags. Raising their hands to the sky, the more than 2,000 protesters chanted: "We put up with hunger, detention and occupation, but we won't put up with the offending the prophet. We sacrifice our lives for you prophet."

Marching in the streets of Nablus, the protesters called the pope a "coward and agent of the Americans."

In northern Gaza, more than 1,000 Islamic Jihad supporters shouted in praise of the prophet, and waved black flags. Khader Habib, an Islamic Jihad leader, told the crowd that the pope's comments "indicate that this pope doesn't understand Islam or the prophet."

In Ramallah, hundreds of Hamas supporters marched around the city center.

Churches in the West Bank and Gaza have been attacked by firebombs and gunfire in recent days, as part of a Muslim uproar over remarks by Pope Benedict XVI last week, seen as insulting to Islam.

[W*GS]

That's correct.

But leave it to The O'W*GS Factor to either miss or misrepresent the point.

You asked for a link in which Moore stated that there was "no terrorist threat", and I provided one.

Oh that you could do the same when you're challenged to support your takes - and no, left-wing blogosphere op-ed pieces don't make the cut.

[bcbronc]

[QUOTE]I guess we'll just skip over post#44 and your answers to any of the questions...oh, that's right, you didn't answer any of them...as for this latest post...let's see what we can do:

I'm not sure if you are trying to claim that all these "scientists" were believers. If you are, then you are a moron at best, disengenous at worst.

Einstein: Was definitely not a christian. If anything, he was agnostic.

Newton: Certainly not a christian. Newton's views could at best be described as deist in nature. Of course, lets keep in mind that he did live in the 1600's.

Darwin: Obviously not a christian. Was definitely an agnostic if not outright atheist. Dude, the Lady Hope story has been refuted so many times that I can't believe that you even bring it up...

Mendel: Definitely anti-christian up until the time he joined the monastery. He joined because he was very poor and it afforded him an opportunity to study. Bought Darwin's book,Origin of the Species, and he fully accepted evolution. I shouldn't have to add that Darwin's views in the middle to late 1800's were anathema to the catholic church, of which Mendel was a supposed "devout benedictine monk and abbot".

Galileo: Very strange that you would even list him... Do you not know your history? Or are you banking on the fact that most readers of this board would not know their history, and would be impressed with a few names thrown around? For those who aren't historically learned, here is the quick version: Galileo was summoned to Rome to answer for his "heretical" belief that the earth rotated around the sun. This belief ran counter to the church's teaching that the Earth was the center of the universe. The 70 year-old Galileo was sent to the palace of the Inquisition where he subsequently recanted (under torture, or, at the least, the threat of torture). He was thereafter condemned to confinement for the rest of his life. Quite the endorsement...

not to answer for him, but he didn't say anything about 'christian'. but all those guys he listed died believing in 'something' beyond the natural world.

Religious faith and rational thought are incompatible. I know the truth hurts, Llama. Honest answers to hard questions always are. I can feel that you are this close to just coming over to the rational side. I can see it in your non-answer answers to difficult questions; I can see it in your dredging up of old (and quite often discredited) canards of "scientists", "philosophers", and "atheism is a set of beliefs, too" bull****. You see, I don't want philisophical rants or obscure "pseudo-intellectual" crap about god. I want you to admit the obvious. That's it. Tell us you believe for psychological reasons that give you comfort and happiness, or that it helps you get over an irrational fear of death, or whatever... What religion isn't, and never will be, is a rational, reasonable explanation for the existence of mankind...

you've already pointed out the vast assortment of religous faiths there is and has been. and then you give a blanket statement like "faith and rational thought are incompatible". that's ridiculous.

how do you explain the many, many advancements in astronomy, math, and medicine from muslim and hindu scholars 1000 years ago? more recently, the last pope stated that evolution does not necessarily contradict the book of genesis. plenty of christians are willing to accept evolution.

on the point of a rational, reasonable explanation for the existence of mankind, does science offer one? if so, please spell it out. because the way i understand it, science more or less considers the big bang the start of the universe as we know it today . so where did the gasses come from? and where did whatever the gasses came from, come from? and so on.

if you are going to go by science, then you have to say that all matter has an finite period of existence. so it would see likely that at some point there was no matter, especially when you consider the backward spiral of today to the pre-big band period. i think it's fair to say this likely continued to Nothing. if there was a period of absolute Nothing, some condition would have to have changed for there to become something. but of course all known matter will need an outside force to go from Nothing to something. so this outside force would have to be a force that does not follow the laws of physics and could not have been created in a similiar fashion to everything we know as 'reality'.

so, by science, we either have a force that is so far undiscoverd and exists outside the laws of physics, or matter has existed since eternity. the latter doesn't qualify as overly rational imo, and the first option could be a starting spot for a definition of "God".

a Creator of some sort is the only rational and reasonable explanation for the creation of mankind i have been able to accept.


You are so sad sometimes. What is it about the truth and someone searching for it that scares you so???

...Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future."

I love those sentiments...

i don't believe that you are an atheist. i think you're just pissed at God.

:peace: