When Jay Cutler gets in and starts he should wear number 11

[mattbeymvp]

Seeing as how that's the number of games he won his entire time at Vanderbilt.

If he could wear zero as in the number of bowl games he appeared in, maybe he should try that too.

Are the geniuses who keep calling for him to start after Jake threw three picks against the Rams aware that Cutler threw two interceptions against Middle Tennessee State?

Jake played in the Pro Bowl last season and Cutler threw a pick in the Senior Bowl. I'm completely sold on good ol' number six!

I'm aware the kid can bench press a whole lot and is a practice all star, but over the last three years only two QBs have a higher winning percentage than Jake does.

So many of you on this board are making Denver fans look absolutely clueless and idiotic, cut it out please.

[DomCasual]

Right. How many bowl games did that Elway guy win when he was in college?

[24champ]

This thread has potential...

[broncofan]

Seeing as how that's the number of games he won his entire time at Vanderbilt.

If he could wear zero as in the number of bowl games he appeared in, maybe he should try that too.

Are the geniuses who keep calling for him to start after Jake threw three picks against the Rams aware that Cutler threw two interceptions against Middle Tennessee State?

Jake played in the Pro Bowl last season and Cutler threw a pick in the Senior Bowl. I'm completely sold on good ol' number six!

I'm aware the kid can bench press a whole lot and is a practice all star, but over the last three years only two QBs have a higher winning percentage than Jake does.

So many of you on this board are making Denver fans look absolutely clueless and idiotic, cut it out please.


Are you a Broncos fan? I can't tell...

I support Jake and want him to be the starter too, but there's no reason to in turn knock Cutler. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[mattbeymvp]

Durrrr, Elway did things like lead the nation in passing touchdowns and set pretty much every meaningful Pac-10 passing record during his time at Stanford.

He finished second in Heisman balloting in 1982.

Jay Cutler on the other hand did what again?

[BroncoMatt]

Jake played in the probowl?

[DomCasual]

This thread has potential...

:D No kidding. He doesn't wait to jump right in, does he?

I sort of agree with him on the Plummer side of his argument - I don't think we're anywhere near the point where he ends up holding a clipboard. But everything he says about Cutler is sort of not smart.

[24champ]

Durrrr, Elway did things like lead the nation in passing touchdowns and set pretty much every meaningful Pac-10 passing record during his time at Stanford.

He finished second in Heisman balloting in 1982.

Jay Cutler on the other hand did what again?
Jay won SEC offensive player of the year...playing for the crappiest team in the SEC.

[ludo21]

The fact Cutler survived in College says the kind of guy he is.

Fact is, Jake is our guy, no doubt about it, but he cant play as bad as he did like last week unless he is out!

[Clockwork Orange]

Jay Cutler on the other hand did what again?

He was named SEC Offensive Player of the Year.

EDIT: 24 beat me to it. Still a hell of an accomplishment considering the talent level of the players around him and the quality of the SEC.

[mattbeymvp]

I'm not knocking Cutler's physical ability. He has a cannon, he's strong, his neck is thick I guess.

He has shown absolutely nothing that suggests he's anywhere near ready to start in an NFL game. The fact of the matter is, Cutler has never had to perform under pressure once. He's never had the pressure of playing in meaningful games , and to act like he's somehow going to step into the NFL and become the second coming of Dan Marino is beyond idiotic.

[Clockwork Orange]

I'm not knocking Cutler's physical ability. He has a cannon, he's strong, his neck is thick I guess.

He has shown absolutely nothing that suggests he's anywhere near ready to start in an NFL game. The fact of the matter is, Cutler has never had to perform under pressure once. He's never had the pressure of playing in meaningful games , and to act like he's somehow going to step into the NFL and become the second coming of Dan Marino is beyond idiotic.

TJ? Your rebuttal?

[SureShot]

I'm not knocking Cutler's physical ability. He has a cannon, he's strong, his neck is thick I guess.

He has shown absolutely nothing that suggests he's anywhere near ready to start in an NFL game. The fact of the matter is, Cutler has never had to perform under pressure once. He's never had the pressure of playing in meaningful games , and to act like he's somehow going to step into the NFL and become the second coming of Dan Marino is beyond idiotic.


When was the last time Flummer performed(well) under pressure?

6n06. I'll take my chances.

[mattbeymvp]

The fact Cutler survived in College says the kind of guy he is.

Fact is, Jake is our guy, no doubt about it, but he cant play as bad as he did like last week unless he is out!

Nobody on the offense can play that poorly and expect to win. Javon Walker needs to learn how to catch, the line and our runningbacks need to learn how to pass block as well.

People who place the blame solely on Jake's shoulders for that game know absolutely nothing about how the game of football is played. Maybe they like watching games on tv, but they have no idea what they're talking about.

[DomCasual]

This has got to be Hotrod.

Someone compare their IP addresses.

[Houshyamama]

Sending Plummer out on a rail is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Insert Cutler and our season is D-O-N-E done. Man oh man, where were you guys last year week 1?

[DomCasual]

Sending Plummer out on a rail is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Insert Cutler and our season is D-O-N-E done. Man oh man, where were you guys last year week 1?
I think it's cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

[ludo21]

Nobody on the offense can play that poorly and expect to win. Javon Walker needs to learn how to catch, the line and our runningbacks need to learn how to pass block as well.

People who place the blame solely on Jake's shoulders for that game know absolutely nothing about how the game of football is played. Maybe they like watching games on tv, but they have no idea what they're talking about.

LOL

better look in the mirror, caz if YOU knew football, you would know that a QB a is supposed to hold on to the ball with 2 hands, and actually see the pocket breakdown, especially when its RIGHT in your FACE.
Also, dont throw off ur back foot, dont throw ducks, and dont force it on 1st down.

That accounts for every one of his TO's, sorry guy, but they were his fault.

Can he turn it around, sure he can, we play the Chiefs next ;D

[Taco John]

TJ? Your rebuttal?


Well, I've been paying close attention, and when you consider everything about the way Cutler's helmet fits him, you're left to conclude that the kid has what it takes to go far in this league.

[gunns]

and to act like he's somehow going to step into the NFL and become the second coming of Dan Marino is beyond idiotic.

WHAT???

You try to make a point on here about QB's and you use Marino?

When was the last time Flummer performed(well) under pressure?


Counterpoint Matt?

[Taco John]

This has got to be Hotrod.

Someone compare their IP addresses.


One of my favorite board jokes is how when someone posts something completely stupid, everyone starts accusing Hotrod of being behind it.

No, this is not a Hotrod ruse. An independent IP tells me that this guy is the real deal.

[Taco John]

When was the last time Flummer performed(well) under pressure?

6n06. I'll take my chances.




Try "Fummler." At least you've got something there that reflects his tiny hands and aptitude for losing the football.

[Taco John]

People who place the blame solely on Jake's shoulders for that game know absolutely nothing about how the game of football is played. Maybe they like watching games on tv, but they have no idea what they're talking about.


Ah... The Popps school of argument. "People who don't agree with me obviously have no idea what they're talking about and know nothing about how the game of football is played."

I've seen this before.

[DomCasual]

Ah... The Popps school of argument. "People who don't agree with me obviously have no idea what they're talking about and know nothing about how the game of football is played."

I've seen this before.
:D So, other than the fact that your first thread went over like a ton of bricks - welcome aboard, mattbeymvp!

[-Slap-]

One of my favorite board jokes is how when someone posts something completely stupid, everyone starts accusing Hotrod of being behind it.

No, this is not a Hotrod ruse. An independent IP tells me that this guy is the real deal.

Where to begin:

IPs, it has been established, can be unique, but still come from a regular poster. Incredibly, some of us have access to one or more PCs.

Its not always Hotrod, but its usually pretty obvious when some regular is trying to post incognito. There are plenty of tells.

This guy seems about as legit as a Chinese redhead, but I couldn't say I'm 100% certain he's not a lurker suddenly driven to post by the incessant ticking sound currently emanating from Jake's career.

[mattbeymvp]

LOL

better look in the mirror, caz if YOU knew football, you would know that a QB a is supposed to hold on to the ball with 2 hands, and actually see the pocket breakdown, especially when its RIGHT in your FACE.
Also, dont throw off ur back foot, dont throw ducks, and dont force it on 1st down.

That accounts for every one of his TO's, sorry guy, but they were his fault.

Can he turn it around, sure he can, we play the Chiefs next ;D


The interception where Todd Devoe missed the ball was Plummer's fault? The interception where the ball was tipped was Plummer's fault? Okay bud.

Looking at things in context as opposed to just "the QB is charged with an interception" is vital. KC Joyner in his series of articles on ESPN Insider, this one specifically talks about http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2560896 interceptions that are the QBs fault and those that are not.

"One of the greatest statistical inequities in the NFL is how quarterbacks are charged for interceptions no matter who was to blame for the turnover...

The second type I call not-at-fault interceptions. These are interceptions that occur for reasons other than bad decisions or inaccurate passes. The most common reasons for these interceptions are the following:

1. Passes tipped by a defender, either at the line of scrimmage or downfield.
2. Passes dropped by a receiver, then intercepted.
3. Hail Mary passes.
4. Inaccurate passes that happen because the quarterback gets hit while throwing the ball. "

In regards to decision making, KC Joyner also sat down and did an in depth study of the 2005 season and ranked Plummer as the fifth best quarterback in the league in regards to passing decisions. You can find the article here, but again it's an ESPN insider article: http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2542482

[BroncoMan4ever]

Durrrr, Elway did things like lead the nation in passing touchdowns and set pretty much every meaningful Pac-10 passing record during his time at Stanford.

He finished second in Heisman balloting in 1982.

Jay Cutler on the other hand did what again?

Whoa people need to relax on this subject.

Elway without question was the best QB in Denver and 1 of the greatest PLAYERS to ever play, without ever winning a bowl game.

But to knock Cutler for going to a college known for academics and not football and have low win percentage is insane. Sure he may not have won a lot, but he learned how to be a tough player. He is like Elway in the sense that he has a rocket arm, is a leader, never won a bowl game, and he will fight his a$$ off when he becomes a starter.

[Houshyamama]

I think it's cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

I think I'm being mocked.

[Clockwork Orange]

One of my favorite board jokes is how when someone posts something completely stupid, everyone starts accusing Hotrod of being behind it.

No, this is not a Hotrod ruse. An independent IP tells me that this guy is the real deal.

I'd accuse mock of being behind it, but I doubt he remembers how to register.

[mattbeymvp]

Where to begin:

IPs, it has been established, can be unique, but still come from a regular poster. Incredibly, some of us have access to one or more PCs.

Its not always Hotrod, but its usually pretty obvious when some regular is trying to post incognito. There are plenty of tells.

This guy seems about as legit as a Chinese redhead, but I couldn't say I'm 100% certain he's not a lurker suddenly driven to post by the incessant ticking sound currently emanating from Jake's career.

Here's the funny thing. I know for a fact that Taco John is aware of who I am, and I'm sure that plenty of others here are as well. But, I'm not a regular poster here at all.

[24champ]

I'd accuse mock of being behind it, but I doubt he remembers how to register.

I was going to say Usedupbraids but doubt he knows how to remember as well...

[Taco John]

Where to begin:

IPs, it has been established, can be unique, but still come from a regular poster. Incredibly, some of us have access to one or more PCs.

I understand that. But in my experience, people are too lazy to jump from multiple computers for a joke, and aren't technically apt enough to know how to mask their IP. And even if they are, eventually they slip up. One mistake is all it takes to be able to see if someone is double dipping.


Its not always Hotrod, but its usually pretty obvious when some regular is trying to post incognito. There are plenty of tells.


Agreed.


This guy seems about as legit as a Chinese redhead, but I couldn't say I'm 100% certain he's not a lurker suddenly driven to post by the incessant ticking sound currently emanating from Jake's career.

I'd bet on the latter. BeckyJ4 (for those familiar with her) didn't show her head until the lurking became unbearable and she finally had to speak up for Brian. I mean, yes, I made a case for Brian, but she took it to a whole different level. I've kind of been wondering who's going to creep through the woodwork to help reinforce Fort Jake and help him make his last stand.

[DomCasual]

I think I'm being mocked.

No. You just nailed two cliches in one sentence. I was showing my appreciation for the creativity! I commit all kinds of dumbassery around here, so someone has to be hideously stupid for me to mock them.

Welcome to the Mane, by the way!

[BroncoMan4ever]

Durrrr, Elway did things like lead the nation in passing touchdowns and set pretty much every meaningful Pac-10 passing record during his time at Stanford.

He finished second in Heisman balloting in 1982.

Jay Cutler on the other hand did what again?

Whoa people need to relax on this subject.

Elway without question was the best QB in Denver and 1 of the greatest PLAYERS to ever play, without ever winning a bowl game.

But to knock Cutler for going to a college known for academics and not football and have low win percentage is insane. Sure he may not have won a lot, but he learned how to be a tough player. He is like Elway in the sense that he has a rocket arm, is a leader, never won a bowl game, and he will fight his a$$ off when he becomes a starter.

[DomCasual]

Whoa people need to relax on this subject.

Elway without question was the best QB in Denver and 1 of the greatest PLAYERS to ever play, without ever winning a bowl game.

But to knock Cutler for going to a college known for academics and not football and have low win percentage is insane. Sure he may not have won a lot, but he learned how to be a tough player. He is like Elway in the sense that he has a rocket arm, is a leader, never won a bowl game, and he will fight his a$$ off when he becomes a starter.

It's like deja vu, all over again.

[Taco John]

Here's the funny thing. I know for a fact that Taco John is aware of who I am, and I'm sure that plenty of others here are as well. But, I'm not a regular poster here at all.

Oooooh! A mystery.

So why don't you just come out and say?

[mattbeymvp]

Oooooh! A mystery.

So why don't you just come out and say?

It would completely derail this thread.

[Clockwork Orange]

I've kind of been wondering what's going to creep through the woodwork to help reinforce Fort Jake and help him make his last stand.

Probably something similar to what we saw when the SS RagArm14 finally went under for the last time.

[Houshyamama]

No. You just nailed two cliches in one sentence. I was showing my appreciation for the creativity! I commit all kinds of dumbassery around here, so someone has to be hideously stupid for me to mock them.

Welcome to the Mane, by the way!

Thanks for the welcome. :welcome:

I'm extremely impressed with the board and its knowledgeable members, wish I would have found it years ago.

GO BRONCOS

[DomCasual]

Thanks for the welcome. :welcome:

I'm extremely impressed with the board and its knowledgeable members, wish I would have found it years ago.

GO BRONCOS

Yeah, a lot of genuinely decent people, too. Don't be a stranger!

[Taco John]

It would completely derail this thread.

I think we passed that marker a long time ago.

[freak6]

Oh who gives a crap who you are. Your take sucks. It's an illogical scatterbrained rant of a teenager that Jake Plummer gave a Coke to after the game.

[-Slap-]

Here's the funny thing. I know for a fact that Taco John is aware of who I am, and I'm sure that plenty of others here are as well. But, I'm not a regular poster here at all.

You're Jake's mom?

[ignitionnight]

I am pretty much convinced that most of you guys are retarded.

But to knock Cutler for going to a college known for academics and not football and have low win percentage is insane. Sure he may not have won a lot, but he learned how to be a tough player. He is like Elway in the sense that he has a rocket arm, is a leader, never won a bowl game, and he will fight his a$$ off when he becomes a starter.

What are you talking about? You are applying Elway's characteristics to a guy who hasn't taken a regular season snap? How is he a leader? Explain to me? Yeah, he has shown good stuff in the preseason and it looks like he could eventually be an awesome quarterback but you can't just say he will turn out how you hope he will.

Plummer led a 13-3 Bronco team to their first AFC title game in 7 years. He lost to the best defense in the playoffs and the eventual Super Bowl champions. Why are you all so ready to throw him under the bus?

You guys are nothing but a bunch of back stabbing gossipy women ready ditch somebody the first second they mess up.

[Clockwork Orange]

I am pretty much convinced that most of you guys are retarded.

What are you talking about? You are applying Elway's characteristics to a guy who hasn't taken a regular season snap? How is he a leader? Explain to me? Yeah, he has shown good stuff in the preseason and it looks like he could eventually be an awesome quarterback but you can't just say he will turn out how you hope he will.

Plummer led a 13-3 Bronco team to their first AFC title game in 7 years. He lost to the best defense in the playoffs and the eventual Super Bowl champions. Why are you all so ready to throw him under the bus?

You guys are nothing but a bunch of back stabbing gossipy women ready ditch somebody the first second they mess up.

TJ? Your rebuttal? ;D

[mattbeymvp]

Oh who gives a crap who you are. Your take sucks. It's an illogical scatterbrained rant of a teenager that Jake Plummer gave a Coke to after the game.

My argument is that Jay Cutler has not proven himself at all, neither in college nor in the NFL. Jake Plummer on the other hand has proven himself time and again in the NFL, especially in his time in Denver. He has led 19 come from behind victories during his professional career, and is third in winning percentage amongst QBs over the last three seasons.

Plummer tied Elway's mark for touchdowns in a season in 2004 and in that same year he threw for more yards than Elway ever did in his professional career in a single season.

Meanwhile Cutler did what? Lost a lot in college, chucked a lot of passes while losing, and benchpressed a bunch at the combine?

Calling for Cutler to start over Plummer is idiotic and is based in reality about as much as the assurances of a pot of gold being at the end of the a rainbow.

[Taco John]

TJ? Your rebuttal? ;D


If the helmet fits...

[freak6]

You guys are nothing but a bunch of back stabbing gossipy women ready ditch somebody the first second they mess up.

Nope, all of us want Jake to come out and dominate the Chiefs, and then lead us to another successful season. But if he sucks, we are willing to debate the possibility of Cutler coming in, and starting over a QB that can't complete a deep pass on our bread and butter big play, the bootleg play action pass.

That only works on 1st down, or 3rd and short, when the D is expecting a run first.

Jake Plummer in obvious passing downs is advantage defense. With Elway it was clearly the other way around, I looked forward to getting the first two Winder runs over with so we could put Elway in the shotgun and see what he could do on 3rd and 7. Cutler can't be worse than Jake was last week.

Go Broncos.

[BroncoBuff]

No, this is not a Hotrod ruse. An independent IP tells me that this guy is the real deal.

Hey. matt! Congratulations, the boss says you're "the real deal."

A real idiot.

Now go away.

[BroncoBuff]

Oh who gives a crap who you are. Your take sucks. It's an illogical scatterbrained rant of a teenager that Jake Plummer gave a Coke to after the game.

Actually, this kid gave Jake a Coke, Jake threw him his jersey .... which explains his posts.


You can wash that jersey now, kid.

[Taco John]

Plummer tied Elway's mark for touchdowns in a season in 2004 and in that same year he threw for more yards than Elway ever did in his professional career in a single season.


I will address this point: so what? It happened during the year that ALL quarterbacks touchdowns were up due to NFL rule changes that gave quarterbacks the advantage over the defenses. Peyton Manning broke Dan's record that year, ruining fantasy leagues for years to come by making scared fantasy footballers demand that quarterbacks touchdowns count for only 4 points instead of the usual 6. But I digress...

What does it matter how many TDs he threw in a season if he choked down the stretch and cost us the division title? What does it matter how many TDs he can throw when he chokes every time the pressure is on?

[freak6]

1. My argument is that Jay Cutler has not proven himself at all, neither in college nor in the NFL.

2. Jake Plummer on the other hand has proven himself time and again in the NFL, especially in his time in Denver.

3. Meanwhile Cutler did what? Lost a lot in college, chucked a lot of passes while losing, and benchpressed a bunch at the combine?

4. Calling for Cutler to start over Plummer is idiotic and is based in reality about as much as the assurances of a pot of gold being at the end of the a rainbow.

1. Cutler has proven himself as better than advertised thus far. What else do you want, he can't do more unless given the chance.

2. Jake Plummer has proven himself here, you're right, as a QB that makes poor reads and poor throws during high pressure situations. One playoff victory over a team that turned the ball over 4 times.

3. Referring to Cutler's college career will get you no where, it's irrellevant. What did Marshall Faulk do at SDSU? What did Rod Smith do and MVSU? What did Terrell Davis do? What did Brad Johnson do at FSU, he was the backup!!! If anything Cutler proved himself as a competitor and leader there.

4. Only 10% of the people here want to start Cutler now, 90% of us still have faith in Jake, and realize that one game does not make the season, 2005. Jake's last 2 games and playoff history have not endeared him to this city, that expects to win playoff games at home, not have the QB throw 2 terrible ints preventing any hope of a comeback.

[mattbeymvp]

1. Cutler has proven himself as better than advertised thus far. What else do you want, he can't do more unless given the chance.

2. Jake Plummer has proven himself here, you're right, as a QB that makes poor reads and poor throws during high pressure situations. One playoff victory over a team that turned the ball over 4 times.

3. Referring to Cutler's college career will get you no where, it's irrellevant. What did Marshall Faulk do at SDSU? What did Rod Smith do and MVSU? What did Terrell Davis do? What did Brad Johnson do at FSU, he was the backup!!! If anything Cutler proved himself as a competitor and leader there.

4. Only 10% of the people here want to start Cutler now, 90% of us still have faith in Jake, and realize that one game does not make the season, 2005. Jake's last 2 games and playoff history have not endeared him to this city, that expects to win playoff games at home, not have the QB throw 2 terrible ints preventing any hope of a comeback.

What did Marshall Faulk do at San Diego State? Let's see, he was a three time All-American, his Freshman year he rushed for nearly 400 yards and for 7 touchdowns in a single game and ran for over 1400 yards in that season. He scored SIXTY TWO TOUCHDOWNS during his college tenure.

As for #4 are you all not aware of the absolutely horrible playoff performances Elway strung together early in his career as a Bronco?

[Clockwork Orange]

As for #4 are you all not aware of the absolutely horrible playoff performances Elway strung together early in his career as a Bronco?

Here we go......

[mattbeymvp]

I will address this point: so what? It happened during the year that ALL quarterbacks touchdowns were up due to NFL rule changes that gave quarterbacks the advantage over the defenses. Peyton Manning broke Dan's record that year, ruining fantasy leagues for years to come by making scared fantasy footballers demand that quarterbacks touchdowns count for only 4 points instead of the usual 6. But I digress...

What does it matter how many TDs he threw in a season if he choked down the stretch and cost us the division title? What does it matter how many TDs he can throw when he chokes every time the pressure is on?

He "choked down the stretch and cost us the division title"? You're either completely oblivious to something that happened two years ago or just flat out lying.

Here are the images that I recall very clearly about that stretch in 2004. I remember Champ Bailey getting burned by Jerry Porter multiple times in the snow against Oakland and then a field goal being blocked, but that's surely Jake's fault. In the Kansas City game I remember Eddie Kennison making Champ his bitch and Larry Johnson rushing for 150 yards on our defense. As for the San Diego game, I remember balls bouncing off of the hands of our receivers and into the hands of San Diego's defenders.

Then the Broncos won their final two games of the year.

As for "choking in the playoffs"...

The losses to Indy in the playoffs were not Plummer's fault in any way. And even if Jake had played nearly perfectly in the Pittsburgh loss how is he supposed to stop Ben Roethlisberger from completing practically every third down pass he attempted? Explain that one to me please.

The defense carries most of the blame for that loss as they had Roethlisberger in third and long something like nine times and allowed him to compete every single one.

[Taco John]

As for #4 are you all not aware of the absolutely horrible playoff performances Elway strung together early in his career as a Bronco?



...

[Taco John]

As for "choking in the playoffs"...

The losses to Indy in the playoffs were not Plummer's fault in any way.




Oh, of course not! It's never Jake's fault! Did I give you the impression that I thought that Jake choking cost us playoff games? Shucks! I apologize!

I've come to understand that it's ok for Jake to choke if the pressure is too high and the other team is really good. Praise Jesus, I've seen the light!

[ignitionnight]

Here are Elway's stats for his first, second and third Super Bowls.

Superbowl XXI
22-37 1 TD 1 INT

Superbowl XXII
14-38 1 TD 3 INTs

Superbowl XXIV
10-26 0 TD 2 INTs

Oh my god what a choker, put in Kubiak!!!!!!!

[mattbeymvp]

Oh, of course not! It's never Jake's fault! Did I give you the impression that I thought that Jake choking cost us the game? Shucks! I apologize!

I've come to understand that it's ok for Jake to choke if the pressure is too high and the other team is really good. Praise Jesus, I've seen the light!

I love the mentality of there needing to be one player to place the blame upon. As opposed to football being a team game. A certain Steelers QB completely choked in the Superbowl and yet his team was still able to win because football is a team game.

It's also real cute how when one person needs to be blamed it's always a game of musical scapegoats instead of maybe taking a look at the top and the sacred cow named Mike.

[Taco John]

Despite what the people who absolutely refuse to criticize Jake will say, I absolutely think that the defense let us down in the Pittsburgh game. That said, Jake had the opportunity to drive the team to a touchdown at the end of the half, and bring the game to 10-17... within one touchdown.

Like he always does when we need him the most, Jake choked. Does that pardon the defense for allowing the Steelers to score 17 points? Absolutely not... But when you consider that they only gave up 13 points when the Steelers started on their side of the field, and the offense gave up four turnovers, 2 of them being interceptions just when the team needed the offense to make something happen, one has to wonder... Especially when you see it happen nearly the same against the Rams, only this time with the defense only allowing field goals.

[mattbeymvp]

Despite what the people who absolutely refuse to criticize Jake will say, I absolutely think that the defense let us down in the Pittsburgh game. That said, Jake had the opportunity to drive the team to a touchdown at the end of the half, and bring the game to 10-17... within one touchdown.

Like he always does when we need him the most, Jake choked. Does that pardon the defense for allowing the Steelers to score 17 points? Absolutely not... But when you consider that they only gave up 13 points when the Steelers started on their side of the field, and the offense gave up four turnovers, 2 of them being interceptions just when the team needed the offense to make something happen, one has to wonder... Especially when you see it happen nearly the same against the Rams, only this time with the defense only allowing field goals.

And Jay Cutler is a better option because choking against Middle Tennessee State is somehow indicative of grace under pressure?

[Taco John]

And Jay Cutler is a better option because choking against Middle Tennessee State is somehow indicative of grace under pressure?

Oh, well when you put it that way... If I'd have known that Jay Cutler lost any college games, I'd have never questioned Jake for committing 4 turnovers in our opening game against the Rams. In fact, I might have thanked him for it!

[mattbeymvp]

Oh, well when you put it that way... If I'd have known that Jay Cutler lost any college games, I'd have never questioned Jake for committing 4 turnovers in our opening game against the Rams. In fact, I might have thanked him for it!

Every QB has bad games, and to act like Jake was alone in his poor performance is absurd beyond belief.

Did you miss Javon Walker letting balls bounce off his hands? How about Mike Bell looking lost in pass protection or Leonard Little making George Foster look foolish all game long.

[watermock]

Seeing as how that's the number of games he won his entire time at Vanderbilt.

If he could wear zero as in the number of bowl games he appeared in, maybe he should try that too.

Are the geniuses who keep calling for him to start after Jake threw three picks against the Rams aware that Cutler threw two interceptions against Middle Tennessee State?

Jake played in the Pro Bowl last season and Cutler threw a pick in the Senior Bowl. I'm completely sold on good ol' number six!

I'm aware the kid can bench press a whole lot and is a practice all star, but over the last three years only two QBs have a higher winning percentage than Jake does.

So many of you on this board are making Denver fans look absolutely clueless and idiotic, cut it out please.

I'm just glad moronic GM's in places like in Tennessee, Oakland, Detroit and Arizona felt the same way or Rocket Man wouldn't of come close to Denver.

[NFLBRONCO]

Did Denver put Javon in Watts old locker is that why he dropped the ball so often sunday????

[bdv]

mattbeymvp is being unbelievably provocative, while using way too many superlatives for the football-savvy he has shown. notsofast My "bet" is he is playing you guys, using reverse-psychology to get people to support the idea of starting Cutler.

I'm more of a novice than most here, so I don't know the hypothetical point at which Cutler should start. There's a lot to consider. I do know that right now Plummer should start. But if Plummer continues to play as he has in his last two games I'll become more and more ambivalent - the prerogative of a fan. In contrast, Shanahan is decisive, not to mention audacious...

-Tim

[Taco John]

mattbeymvp is being unbelievably provocative, while using way too many superlatives for the football-savvy he has shown. notsofast My "bet" is he is playing you guys, using reverse-psychology to get people to support the idea of starting Cutler.

I'm more of a novice than most here, so I don't know the hypothetical point at which Cutler should start. There's a lot to consider. I do know that right now Plummer should start. But if Plummer continues to play as he has in his last two games I'll become more and more ambivalent - the prerogative of a fan. In contrast, Shanahan is decisive, not to mention audacious...

-Tim



Whoah! That post was rediculous!





/hoping the new guy might be familiar with this OM inside joke...

[alphamale72]

College Is Often A Very Poor Litmus Paper When It Comes To "promising Players".....akili Smith Anyone?.....what Did Rod Smith Ever Do In College?.....or Td For That Matter?.....(long Beach State?) Not Much.....but The Nfl Is A Different Animal As We All Know!!.....ryan Leaf,chris Weinke,rashaan Salaam,andre Ware,charles Rodgers,akili Smith,etc ...etc......

[Atlas]

Seeing as how that's the number of games he won his entire time at Vanderbilt.

If he could wear zero as in the number of bowl games he appeared in, maybe he should try that too.

Are the geniuses who keep calling for him to start after Jake threw three picks against the Rams aware that Cutler threw two interceptions against Middle Tennessee State?

Jake played in the Pro Bowl last season and Cutler threw a pick in the Senior Bowl. I'm completely sold on good ol' number six!

I'm aware the kid can bench press a whole lot and is a practice all star, but over the last three years only two QBs have a higher winning percentage than Jake does.

So many of you on this board are making Denver fans look absolutely clueless and idiotic, cut it out please.

well, you do make some good points.

[watermock]

All-SEC Pre-Season Teams Announced
The pre-season All-SEC Teams for the 2005 SEC football season were announced this week. The rosters were chosen by the coaches within the SEC. Florida led the way with 12 players named to the team. Auburn was a close second with 11. Tennessee had 10 player selected while Georgia and Alabama each had nine. Auburn led the way with six players selected to the first-team. Tennessee had four players selected. This is the second year the coaches have selected pre-season all-SEC teams. The announcement is a prelude to SEC Media days that are scheduled to take place in Birmingham next week. Pos. Name School Ht. Wt. Cl. Hometown
FIRST-TEAM ALL-SEC -- OFFENSE
TE Leonard Pope Georgia 6-7 250 Jr. Americus, Ga.
OL #Marcus McNeill Auburn 6-9 337 Sr. Decatur, Ga.
OL Max Jean-Gilles Georgia 6-4 340 Sr. Miami, Fla.
OL Andrew Whitworth LSU 6-7 325 Sr. West Monroe, La.
OL *Randy Hand Florida 6-6 305 Sr. Fort Myers, Fla.
OL *Arron Sears Tennessee 6-4 338 Jr. Russellville, Ala.
C Mike Degory Florida 6-6 306 Sr. Palm Bay, Fla.
WR Andre Caldwell Florida 6-1 195 Jr. Tampa, Fla.
WR Courtney Taylor Auburn 6-2 204 Jr. Carrollton, Ga.
QB Jay Cutler Vanderbilt 6-4 225 Sr. Santa Claus, Ind.
RB Jerious Norwood Miss. State 6-0 202 Sr. Brandon, Miss.
RB Gerald Riggs, Jr. Tennessee 6-0 217 Sr. Chattanooga, Tenn.

He's from Santa Claus! Do you hate Santa? Santa delivers good things and tidings. La La La...

[Atlas]

As for #4 are you all not aware of the absolutely horrible playoff performances Elway strung together early in his career as a Bronco?

What are you talking about??? In 1984 Elway was injured and Denver lost to Pittsburgh in the playoffs.

1985 Denver didn't make the playoffs. 1986 was the Drive. So what are all these horrible playoff performances Elway "strung" together??

Elway has always been clutch in the playoffs.

[alphamale72]

I Think We Should Cut Plummer And Sign That "jeff George" Guy......i Hear He Did Some Good Things In College And Has A Rocket For An Arm.......now Were Talkin!!.........just Win Baby!

[Taco John]

Elway has always been clutch in the playoffs.


Which is the entire reason why there's this mythical "double standard" people complain about when Jake gets criticized. I can't even think of one clutch moment in the Plummer era where he did something above and beyond that would make me want to endure the kind of losses with him that we endured with Elway.

[Atlas]

Which is the entire reason why there's this mythical "double standard" people complain about when Jake gets criticized. I can't even think of one clutch moment in the Plummer era where he did something above and beyond that would make me want to endure the kind of losses with him that we endured with Elway.


I agree. I think a lot of that is because Shanny has nutered Jake. He has taken all the gambler out of Jake's game. It has made Jake a better QB but now when behind Jake doesn't have the same swagger, the same confidence he had in Arizona. Remember in Arizona Plummer had a whole bunch of come from behind victories. In Denver he is just the caretaker of the offense.

[watermock]

A friend on this board sent me a DVD of the classic Bears@Denver tilt in 86 I think. I had perfect seats. I had never seen the televised version, but was on the broncos side at the 20 on the south end, row 12. What seats!

Anyway, my jaw dropped the way Elway played. I think it was close to his finest hour. Three events come to mind. Beating Ditka, (who didn't cross the field after the game altho they were teammates at Dallas), The Drive, and of course, his coup de gras with one hand holding the Lombardi, the other the SB MVP.

I forgot how athletic Elway was when younger. The famouse Bears defense never sacked Elway...but they laid him on his back multiple times on plays he completed. I honestly think that was the begining of the end for Chicago. This was a Bears team that had a multitude of stars. Jim McMahon, Walter, Gault, Singletary, Dent, McMichael among others.

[Northman]

As for #4 are you all not aware of the absolutely horrible playoff performances Elway strung together early in his career as a Bronco?


Yep, that happened EARLY in his career as opposed to a 10 year veteran.

[Northman]

And Jay Cutler is a better option because choking against Middle Tennessee State is somehow indicative of grace under pressure?



Good grief, you cant even compare college to the pro level. It wasnt like Culter played for FSU or something. He was the only decent player on that team.

[watermock]

Commodores in Nashville, Tennessee from 2002-2005. He is the son of Jack and Sandy Cutler and has two younger sisters.

While at Vanderbilt, he started in over 40 consecutive games as quarterback and was named Southeastern Conference Offensive Player of the Week and All-SEC several times. For the 2005 season, he earned the SEC Offensive Player of the Year title after completing 273 of 462 attempted passes for 3073 yards and 22 touchdowns. He finished his college career with a total 8697 passing yards.

In 2002, Cutler set the school record for touchdowns and rushing yards by a freshman as well as completing more rushing yards than any other SEC quarterback. By 2004, he had achieved high ranking in nearly every category relevant to his position as quarterback. In that year, he completed over 60% of his passes with over 125 attempts, the highest percentage with 125+ attempts that had ever been achieved by a Commodore.

The 2005 season, his final year of play at Vanderbilt, was his most impressive. He led the Commodores to victories over Wake Forest University and the Universities of Arkansas, Mississippi, Richmond, and Tennessee. The Commodores also scored the second most points ever scored against the University of Florida football team at their current home field at Ben Hill Griffin Stadium. They nearly upset the 13th-ranked Gators before falling 49-42 in second overtime.

The Commodores ended their season, and Cutler's Vanderbilt career, against the Tennessee Volunteers with a 28-24 win, their first victory over the Volunteers since 1982, the year before Cutler was born. Cutler's final play in college was the game-winning (and streak-ending) touchdown pass to teammate Earl Bennett.

[edit]
NFL Draft
Cutler was expected to be a high draft pick in the NFL Draft, and was ranked by many experts as the third-best quarterback prospect, after Matt Leinart of USC and Vince Young of Texas. Some mock drafts as recent as April 1, 2006, had projected him as being selected ahead of Young. Many scouts believe he has better arm strength than either Young or Leinart, but still needs to develop his decision making. At the draft combine, he completed 23 repetitions of a 225-pound bench press and ran a 40-yard dash in 4.77 seconds. [3]

After attracting interest from the Oakland Raiders, Detroit Lions, Arizona Cardinals, and Baltimore Ravens, Cutler was surprisingly selected by the Denver Broncos with the 11th pick in the draft, after the Broncos acquired the pick from the St. Louis Rams for their 15th and 68th overall picks. Cutler said after the draft that "I literally hadn't spoken to Denver in two months." Cutler, as predicted by most, became the third quarterback chosen, after Young (3rd overall) and Leinart (10th). He is seen as the likely successor to current Denver starter Jake Plummer.

Recently, he agreed to terms on a six-year contract on Thursday, July 27, 2006 worth $48 million dollars.

[edit]
Professional Career
After a strong training camp in 2006, Cutler was promoted from third to second on the Broncos' quarterback depth chart. He played surprisingly well in the 2006 preseason, as rookie quarterbacks tend to struggle in their first few NFL games. He passed for more yards and achieved a higher passer rating (108.3) than Vince Young and Matt Leinart in the preseason. [b]Denver coach Mike Shanahan has referred to Cutler as a future Hall of Fame caliber player.

This isn't Dick Vermeil talking. Shanahan isn't known for gushing praise on a rookie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Cutler_(football_player)

One last thought. Anyone notice that Shanahan publicly said he plans to coach for at least the next decade for Denver very recently?

[fontaine]

I'm not knocking Cutler's physical ability. He has a cannon, he's strong, his neck is thick I guess.

He has shown absolutely nothing that suggests he's anywhere near ready to start in an NFL game. The fact of the matter is, Cutler has never had to perform under pressure once. He's never had the pressure of playing in meaningful games , and to act like he's somehow going to step into the NFL and become the second coming of Dan Marino is beyond idiotic.


No way do I want Cutler to start right now.

But IF somehow he did start, he wouldn't really have high standards to live up to. As a matter of fact, even if Cutler was average, it would be an improvement from what we've seen from Plummer lately.

Jake's Past three competitive games:

Record: 1-2

Turnovers: 9 (3 fumbles + 6 ints) in 82 passing attempts.

-------That's 1 turnover every 9 passing attempts-------

Touchdowns: 2

----------That's 1 TD every 41 attempts-----------------

Left Handed passes: 1

------That's one left handed pass too many------

Take care of the freakin' ball you stupid ****nut!

[-Slap-]

It's also real cute how when one person needs to be blamed it's always a game of musical scapegoats instead of maybe taking a look at the top and the sacred cow named Mike.

Can you believe this clown?

Joke Plummer should get down and kiss Mike Shanahan's feet for transforming him from a League laughing stock, who sucked so bad he finally lost his job in AZ, into a reasonably serviceable NFL quarterback.

Taco, this goofball rips Cutler, Elway and Shanahan while proclaiming Plummer is an unappreciated superstar and you're still taking him at face value?

How long did you say you've been doing this?

[Orange_Beard]

Guess we now know why Elway wore 7.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Seeing as how that's the number of games he won his entire time at Vanderbilt.

If he could wear zero as in the number of bowl games he appeared in, maybe he should try that too.

Are the geniuses who keep calling for him to start after Jake threw three picks against the Rams aware that Cutler threw two interceptions against Middle Tennessee State?

Jake played in the Pro Bowl last season and Cutler threw a pick in the Senior Bowl. I'm completely sold on good ol' number six!

I'm aware the kid can bench press a whole lot and is a practice all star, but over the last three years only two QBs have a higher winning percentage than Jake does.

So many of you on this board are making Denver fans look absolutely clueless and idiotic, cut it out please.
Maybe we could start a Plummer condolences thread for these guys that are about to lose their reason for existing in the very near future.

[-Slap-]

Maybe we could start a Plummer condolences thread for for these guys that are about to lose their reason for existing in the very near future.

They're too sentimental to trade in the 97 Ford Escort with a cracked windshield, for the brand new Lamborghini.

[Killericon]

I love how the only way a Bronco fan can argue for Cutler is to compare him to Elway...and the only way a Bronco fan can argue for Plummer is to compare him to Elway.

It makes me laugh.

I KNOW!!!

We'll call up John himself, ask him who he thinks should start!

[Hercules Rockefeller]

You're Jake's mom?

Maybe a new Becky, but for Jake this time?

[watermock]

ROFL! I love how the only way a Bronco fan can argue for Cutler is to compare him to Elway...and the only way a Bronco fan can argue for Plummer is to compare him to Elway.

It makes me laugh.

I KNOW!!!

We'll call up John himself, ask him who he thinks should start!

Actually, Plummer has been quite impressive. I have compared him to Marino with feet that can run.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

ROFL!

Actually, Plummer has been quite impressive. I have compared him to Marino with feet that can run.
As opposed to what, feet that can only walk?

[watermock]

I'm just repeating what many people have said about Cutler's release resembling Marin's. He also has legs.

I put Plummer in instead of Cutler.

[Steve Sewell]

Durrrr, Elway did things like lead the nation in passing touchdowns and set pretty much every meaningful Pac-10 passing record during his time at Stanford.

He finished second in Heisman balloting in 1982.

Jay Cutler on the other hand did what again?

Won SEC Offensive Player of the Year at Vanderbilt, against quality defenses in the SEC (as opposed to the Pac-10), with virtually no talent surrounding him. But nice take, you are a true genius!

[watermock]

I typed wrong. Sue me. I'm not sure it wasn't altered but I will admit a blunder.

I didn't make that thread comment either.This is the third time that a post has been altered.

[cousinal11]

My take is that if our passing offense looks like crap again into the third quarter, throw the rookie to the wolves for a series and sees what happens. Not necessarily make him the starter just give him a chance to jumpstart a passing offense which after one game is not much better than the Raiders. Did I just say that?

[Steve Sewell]

Oooooh! A mystery.

So why don't you just come out and say?

Because he has no credibility?

[Master___Pain]

Yeah, a lot of genuinely decent people, too. Don't be a stranger!

Says youHa!

[freak6]

It's Griese's fault!!!!!!

[Steve Sewell]

You know what's funny? Most of the people who are saying they want Cutler to start are just doing it to bait other posters. It's quite comical, actually. Some people are so gullible.

[-Slap-]

I typed wrong. Sue me. I'm not sure it wasn't altered but I will admit a blunder.

I didn't make that thread comment either.This is the third time that a post has been altered.

Paranoia will destroy ya.

[-Slap-]

You know what's funny? Most of the people who are saying they want Cutler to start are just doing it to bait other posters. It's quite comical, actually. Some people are so gullible.

Pushing each other's buttons is one of the main diversions around here.

[ØrangeÇrush]

Here's the funny thing. I know for a fact that Taco John is aware of who I am, and I'm sure that plenty of others here are as well. But, I'm not a regular poster here at all.



I unmask thee devil! Let the thread derailment begin!

http://www.fireshanahan.com/


Note: All post-game updates will be on Mondays this year

In a game eerily similar to last year's Week 1 loss to Miami, the Broncos once again had an inability to get the ball into the endzone on Sunday. It's only Week 1 and the season is obviously not over, but the things that we were shown in this loss give the impression that this team is not a championship contender. I'm wondering what Mike Shanahan does during training camp and the preseason instead of getting his teams mentally prepared to play. They certainly didn't look ready this week and they didn't look ready last year in the Week 1 loss to Miami.

Javon "I just dropped it" Walker, the darling of the Denver media during the preseason must have decided to dip his hands into cement before the game. He looked terrible out there. Wasn't the bash on guys like Lelie and Watts that they couldn't catch balls? Man, Javon Walker sure looked like an improvement in that regard.

As for Jake, I didn't see his first interception. The pick by Chavous was not his fault, as he threw a pass that Todd Devoe should have caught and Devoe just flat out missed it. The ball that was picked by Brown was off of a tipped ball, Jake threw into coverage but sometimes you have to do that when your team is losing. All day Jake had seemingly no pass protection and Leonard Little was running him over like he was behind the wheel of an SUV after a night at the bar. The offensive line and the wide receivers led by all-star-super-offseason-pick up Javon Walker flat out let Plummer down yesterday.

The calls for Cutler to start by his cheerleaders in the press led by Mark Kiszla who has done everything short of proposing to Jay to show his love and affection for The Gunslinger are comical at best. The geniuses at Orange Mane are just as funny and some of the more clueless clammoring for us to trade Plummer to a division rival to get rid of him. The Gunslinger is just flat out not ready for the NFL, nothing he showed in college gives us the impression that he could have done any better against the Rams than Jake did. Especially with the pass rush that was breathing down his neck all day. Cutler threw two picks to Middle Tennessee State for crying out loud. If the games were played in the weightlifting room, if you could win a game by benchpressing, I'd be all for subbing in Cutler but they're not.

The bright spot this week was clearly the play of the defense who as Bill Williamson points out were so good they managed to turn Jeff Wilkins into a fantasy god for the week. If they play half that well for the rest of the year, we'll be in fine shape for the regular season. The playoffs are once again an entirely different matter.


The guy is hilarious! He starts a provocative thread so he can link it back to his website to "show" that we are the idiots.

Anyway, we can all move along now.


BTW....

I figured this out as soon as he started to bash shanahan.

[bendog]

Pushing each other's buttons is one of the main diversions around here.

I wouldn't have read the thread but for your name showing up as the last poster. Gotta be a parody poster.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What an idjit! I know he doesn't get any emails because he doesn't have any traffic so may I can help him out by posting his email address on as many sites as possible.

fireshanahan@gmail.com

[Sodak]

Well, I've been paying close attention, and when you consider everything about the way Cutler's helmet fits him, you're left to conclude that the kid has what it takes to go far in this league.



Speaking of helmets...

What the hell is wrong with Stephen Jackson?

[Willynowei]

Seeing as how that's the number of games he won his entire time at Vanderbilt.

If he could wear zero as in the number of bowl games he appeared in, maybe he should try that too.

Are the geniuses who keep calling for him to start after Jake threw three picks against the Rams aware that Cutler threw two interceptions against Middle Tennessee State?

Jake played in the Pro Bowl last season and Cutler threw a pick in the Senior Bowl. I'm completely sold on good ol' number six!

I'm aware the kid can bench press a whole lot and is a practice all star, but over the last three years only two QBs have a higher winning percentage than Jake does.

So many of you on this board are making Denver fans look absolutely clueless and idiotic, cut it out please.

you know what i do when people bring up college acheivements and statistics?



I laugh. Its about as valuable for discussion as the highschool stats of some of the maners on here ;)

[No1BroncoFan]

you know what i do when people bring up college acheivements and statistics?



I laugh. Its about as valuable for discussion as the highschool stats of some of the maners on here ;)
Hey, I once had 9 catches for 127 yards and two touchdowns while shutting down my half of the field on defense in the conference finals (we lost 28-27). Maybe I should head out to Dove Valley and replace Rod and Champ! ;D

Ameture leagues can be so much fun!

Ben

[-Slap-]

I sacked a punter once.......:)

[Victor]

Seeing as how that's the number of games he won his entire time at Vanderbilt.


When you buy your Plummer jersey, you should get number 14, because that's how many posts you made before you started this stupid thread.

Let me ask this...if Jake continues on a four-turnover per game pace, are you going to keep your nose up his ass?

[Clockwork Orange]

I unmask thee devil! Let the thread derailment begin!

http://www.fireshanahan.com/




The guy is hilarious! He starts a provocative thread so he can link it back to his website to "show" that we are the idiots.

Anyway, we can all move along now.


BTW....

I figured this out as soon as he started to bash shanahan.

Hey TJ, did I call it or what? :yayaya:

[Clockwork Orange]

Just so people know, the jerkoff who started this thread has posted here before under the name ClintBarmessiah.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=3449

That username alone should tell you all you need to know about his ability to judge talent. :rofl:

[Taco John]

Hey TJ, did I call it or what? :yayaya:

haha! You totally called it.

This should get pretty entertaining...

[ignitionnight]

I am continuing with my assesment that most of you guys are mentally defective in some way. When people like me defend Plummer we aren't calling him perfect, and we never said he was an "under appreciated superstar." All we are saying is that a lot of the criticism thrown at him is undeserved and calling for the benching of one of the biggest winners of the past 3 years is completely moronic.

We are also not criticizing Cutler either. Cutler will be a good quarterback in the future, but I refuse to let my excitement over how good he can be cloud my judgement on how good he is right now. With Cutler we would probably have more big plays, but the stalled drives we would lose on his rookie mistakes and the interceptions he WILL make is just not worth benching a quarterback that is as good at managing a game as Plummer is.

[Taco John]

You'd have a point if Plummer was good at managing high pressure games. As it is, if we get as few as 12 points behind, we might as well forfeit with Plummer behind center.

[Rohirrim]

I am continuing with my assesment that most of you guys are mentally defective in some way. When people like me defend Plummer we aren't calling him perfect, and we never said he was an "under appreciated superstar." All we are saying is that a lot of the criticism thrown at him is undeserved and calling for the benching of one of the biggest winners of the past 3 years is completely moronic.

We are also not criticizing Cutler either. Cutler will be a good quarterback in the future, but I refuse to let my excitement over how good he can be cloud my judgement on how good he is right now. With Cutler we would probably have more big plays, but the stalled drives we would lose on his rookie mistakes and the interceptions he WILL make is just not worth benching a quarterback that is as good at managing a game as Plummer is.

Funny. I give the credit for the game management to Shanahan.

[ignitionnight]

You'd have a point if Plummer was good at managing high pressure games. As it is, if we get as few as 12 points behind, we might as well forfeit with Plummer behind center.
And you think a rookie quarterback will be any better in that situation?

[55CrushEm]

You'd have a point if Plummer was good at managing high pressure games.

Bingo.....I love how people argue "Well, Plummer is good.....uh, when we don't ask him to do much."

Or...."Plummer, is good when he's not under pressure."

NO SH*T !! A professional NLF QB SHOULD be good.....especially when NOT under pressure.....

But Plummer not only is not good when he's pressured.....he flat out SUCKS ! Being a QB in the NFL is a high pressure job.....period. And after 9 full NFL seasons, Plummer is average at best.

Unless we have a defense like the Ravens or Steelers.....we can't win the big one with Flake Bummer.

I know I'm.....:deadhorse ......but damn.....

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I am continuing with my assesment that most of you guys are mentally defective in some way. This probably speaks volumes on any assessment you may make including on Plummer.

And you think a rookie quarterback will be any better in that situation?
One thing for sure you won't see any of these (http://www.schaudt.us/watercolors/hires/bogus354by258.jpg) from Cutler.

[DeusExManning]

Durrrr, Elway did things like lead the nation in passing touchdowns and set pretty much every meaningful Pac-10 passing record during his time at Stanford.

He finished second in Heisman balloting in 1982.

Jay Cutler on the other hand did what again?

Jay Cutler played in the toughest conference with a horrible offensive line, no running game and all out blitzes on almost every play and consistently showed an ability to throw into small windows with precision. Jay Cutler averaged 5 catchable drops per game. He was voted the MVP of the SEC last year. He played all 4 years of college and has shown significant football presence and knowledge. Jay set pretty much every meaningful Vanderbilt record during his tenure there.

By the way, are you Jake? Who are you?

Jay Cutler will throw interceptions, maybe just like Jake. But he has a lot more potential, a stronger more precise arm, the ability to call an audible.

[Taco John]

And you think a rookie quarterback will be any better in that situation?

I think that if our veteran can't do it any better than a rookie can, then what's the point of starting the veteran... especially if the rookie has more upside.

[Rock Chalk]

Right. How many bowl games did that Elway guy win when he was in college?

Comparing Cutler to Elway already?

Or, making excuses?

[Rock Chalk]

Jay Cutler played in the toughest conference with a horrible offensive line, no running game and all out blitzes on almost every play and consistently showed an ability to throw into small windows with precision. Jay Cutler averaged 5 catchable drops per game. He was voted the MVP of the SEC last year. He played all 4 years of college and has shown significant football presence and knowledge. Jay set pretty much every meaningful Vanderbilt record during his tenure there.

By the way, are you Jake? Who are you?

Jay Cutler will throw interceptions, maybe just like Jake. But he has a lot more potential, a stronger more precise arm, the ability to call an audible.


Sounds like you are making excuses to me.

Thats the **** pro-Jake guys here when they mention the horrible o-line protection Jake got Sunday.

[Rock Chalk]

Bingo.....I love how people argue "Well, Plummer is good.....uh, when we don't ask him to do much."

Or...."Plummer, is good when he's not under pressure."

NO SH*T !! A professional NLF QB SHOULD be good.....especially when NOT under pressure.....

But Plummer not only is not good when he's pressured.....he flat out SUCKS ! Being a QB in the NFL is a high pressure job.....period. And after 9 full NFL seasons, Plummer is average at best.

Unless we have a defense like the Ravens or Steelers.....we can't win the big one with Flake Bummer.

I know I'm.....:deadhorse ......but damn.....

Go root for the Chiefs then because Jake Plummer is your starting QB, biatch.

[mattbeymvp]

Just so people know, the jerkoff who started this thread has posted here before under the name ClintBarmessiah.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=3449

That username alone should tell you all you need to know about his ability to judge talent. :rofl:

Your ability to detect irony could improve just a tad bit in regards to the Barmessiah name.

Frankly, I'm surprised it took so long for you kids to figure it out. I expected an IP check to reveal it right away.

[DeusExManning]

Bingo.....I love how people argue "Well, Plummer is good.....uh, when we don't ask him to do much."

Or...."Plummer, is good when he's not under pressure."

NO SH*T !! A professional NLF QB SHOULD be good.....especially when NOT under pressure.....

But Plummer not only is not good when he's pressured.....he flat out SUCKS ! Being a QB in the NFL is a high pressure job.....period. And after 9 full NFL seasons, Plummer is average at best.

Unless we have a defense like the Ravens or Steelers.....we can't win the big one with Flake Bummer.

I know I'm.....:deadhorse ......but damn.....

Congratulations on 1000 posts 55!

[mattbeymvp]

I think that if our veteran can't do it any better than a rookie can, then what's the point of starting the veteran... especially if the rookie has more upside.

Again, what has Cutler shown that says he can perform anywhere near the level that Jake has on a whole?

I'm going to laugh when everybody turns on Cutler in about three years or so and Jake ends up going to Dallas and winning a Super Bowl.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Your ability to detect irony could improve just a tad bit in regards to the Barmessiah name.

Frankly, I'm surprised it took so long for you kids to figure it out. I expected an IP check to reveal it right away.
What's your problem? Why do you have to post under aliases?

[55CrushEm]

Go root for the Chiefs then because Jake Plummer is your starting QB, biatch.

Insightful response..... No, I'll always root for our team, and hope that every player on it succeeds.

But you seem to be swinging on Plummer's apple-bag, more than Peter King swings on Brady's.......biatch.

[55CrushEm]

Congratulations on 1000 posts 55!

Wow.....didn't even notice.....thanks.

[mattbeymvp]

What's your problem? Why do you have to post under aliases?

I don't get it, an alias? What is Bronco_Beerslug? You've either got the world's oddest name or you're posting under an alias yourself.

[Taco John]

Again, what has Cutler shown that says he can perform anywhere near the level that Jake has on a whole?

I'm going to laugh when everybody turns on Cutler in about three years or so and Jake ends up going to Dallas and winning a Super Bowl.


Just like we all laughed when the guy with a website devoted to calling for Shanahan's head bashed him every step of the way to a 13-3 season...

In the laugh contest, you have a lot of ground to make up before anyone takes you too seriously.

[Clockwork Orange]

Your ability to detect irony could improve just a tad bit in regards to the Barmessiah name.

Frankly, I'm surprised it took so long for you kids to figure it out. I expected an IP check to reveal it right away.

Your ability to judge talent could improve just a bit since you were the one pimping that scrub in your previous username. Try not to turn an ankle backpeddling from that one.

But then knowing the website that you spend most of your time at, it should come as no surprise that you couldn't see talent if it jumped up and pissed in your face.

Run along back to your site, kiddo. The three people who frequent it probably miss you. :laugh:

[Rascal]

Fact you had to change your username so people would consider what you said; since the last time you posted here, not even counting that ****ty webpage you waste your time on, you were exposed as the moronic chief fan that you are.

[listopencil]

...to act like he's somehow going to step into the NFL and become the second coming of Dan Marino is beyond idiotic.



Welcome to Orange Mane.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I don't get it, an alias? What is Bronco_Beerslug? You've either got the world's oddest name or you're posting under an alias yourself.
Of course you don't get it, your reading comprehension sucks! I said aliases, plural. What's your problem, how come you're posting under multiple aliases?

[mattbeymvp]

Your ability to judge talent could improve just a bit since you were the one pimping that scrub in your previous username. Try not to turn an ankle backpeddling from that one.

But then knowing the website that you spend most of your time at, it should come as no surprise that you couldn't see talent if it jumped up and pissed in your face.

Run along back to your site, kiddo. The three people who frequent it probably miss you. :laugh:

K let me lay it out in clear simple language for you.

I wasn't "pimping" Clint Barmes, I was making fun of the Rockies fans who acted like he was some great player after only half a season of play with him chasing pitches at the plate and showing no discipline.

I spend fifteen minutes a week on the site, if that. How much time does 15,000 posts on a message board take to accumulate there chief?

[mattbeymvp]

Of course you don't get it, your reading comprehension sucks! I said aliases, plural. What's your problem, how come you're posting under multiple aliases?

I forgot the password to the other account, I haven't used my normal password for either.

[Rascal]

I forgot the password to the other account, I haven't used my normal password for either.

BS.

There is a forgot password feature.

[Clockwork Orange]

K let me lay it out in clear simple language for you.

I wasn't "pimping" Clint Barmes, I was making fun of the Rockies fans who acted like he was some great player after only half a season of play with him chasing pitches at the plate and showing no discipline.

I spend fifteen minutes a week on the site, if that. How much time does 15,000 posts on a message board take to accumulate there chief?

Whatever makes you feel better about it, kiddo. This comes as no surprise since you're the same idiot who strains for different reasons as to why Mike Shanahan should be fired. I did think it was cute that you basically went into hiding last year while the Broncos were going 13-3 and then magically reappeared after the Pittsburgh loss. Speaks volumes about your character right there, sport.

Pretty funny that my post count on a board dedicated to my favorite football team is being brought up by someone who maintains a website dedicated to someone they don't even like. Might want to sharpen up your own sense of irony while you're at it. :rofl:

[mattbeymvp]

Just like we all laughed when the guy with a website devoted to calling for Shanahan's head bashed him every step of the way to a 13-3 season...

In the laugh contest, you have a lot of ground to make up before anyone takes you too seriously.

What I find so incredible about you specifically is that you make the same arguments in regards to Jake Plummer's performance (ie he can win games when they don't matter but not the ones that do) that I have made regarding Shanahan. Take Elway out of the picture and you're left with what? What has Shanahan showed us in games that matter without a Hall of Fame QB at the helm? From his abysmal showing in Oakland to the constant under achievement since Elway's retirement.

I for one am sick of finding a new person to blame everytime the team underachieves. First it was Griese's fault, then it was Ray Rhodes, Deltha O'Neal, Ashley Lelie, Jake Plummer, etc. What's the constant throughout that entire period?

As much as you'd like to, to any outside observer (not a complete Broncos homer who sees no fault in anyone but Jake Plummer) your two positions are impossible to reconcile with eachother. It's always the QB's fault when a team isn't able to win the "meaningful" games even though there are 21 other players starting and he has control over so little. Yet the one guy who has the most control over the team is never held to account for his inability to win meaningful games.

If you give Shanahan credit for a 13-3 finish, you have to give Jake that same credit. If regular season games don't matter, then your entire argument as to Shanahan's worth based upon his record is worthless.

[mattbeymvp]

Whatever makes you feel better about it, kiddo. This comes as no surprise since you're the same idiot who strains for different reasons as to why Mike Shanahan should be fired. I did think it was cute that you basically went into hiding last year while the Broncos were going 13-3 and then magically reappeared after the Pittsburgh loss. Speaks volumes about your character right there, sport.

Pretty funny that my post count on a board dedicated to my favorite football team is being brought up by someone who maintains a website dedicated to someone they don't even like. Might want to sharpen up your own sense of irony while you're at it. :rofl:

I didn't "go into hiding" at all. There was a major issue with the site's host from even before the New England game. It led to downtime, as well as an inability for me to access the FTP in order to update the site. The FTP issues weren't even fixed until well after the Pittsburgh game.

I already posted this on the site as proof, but the site was only completely inaccessible for two days.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/866/twodays3hf.jpg

[orange 4 life]

Are you a Broncos fan? I can't tell...

I support Jake and want him to be the starter too, but there's no reason to in turn knock Cutler. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

i agree completely that knocking cutler isnt the answer, but it is kinda understandable given the nature of the situation.
plummer is getting bashed left and right by fans and media, and its completely undeserved.
the guy had a bad game. ONE bad game.
saying he's "not a playoff qb" or that he "cant come from behind" is patently riciculous.
what he did with az doesnt really matter, but the GRIT and TOUGHNESS that he showed with az DOES matter. he won a playoff game there despite being overmatched, and he has more 4th quarter comebacks than anyone in the last ten years.
yes, most of those were in az, but even as a bronco he's had alot of good 4th quarter performances, and some where he played great but the team couldnt get the win. atlanta, oakland, j-ville, etc. he did his job, only to have a dropped pass or fumble.

the defense has given up well over 100 points in our 3 playoff losses. youre not gonna win playoff games playing that kind of defense.

plummer has been great since coming here, and one bad game doesnt deserve the bashing he's taking.

cutler shows alot of promise and has a cannon for an arm, but whaddya ya'll think teams thought of heath shuler, david klingler, todd marinovich, or ryan leaf before they played?
no, i dont think cutler will be a bust, but while everyone just assumes this is plummers last year (and it very well may be), basically NO ONE acknowledges the VERY REAL possibility that cutler will NEVER live up to the hype. odds say he'll never even be as good as plummer.

the kid will likely have his time, but that time is not now, and therefore bronco fans should be united in our support of plummer.
we were ONE game away from the bowl last year (after losing the opener), and if our defense plays like it did sunday, i like our chances this year.
plummer can be a superbowl champion qb for us.
start to support him.
no need to bash cutler in the meantime, but for God's sake support plummer right now. he's earned it.

jake

[orange 4 life]

What I find so incredible about you specifically is that you make the same arguments in regards to Jake Plummer's performance (ie he can win games when they don't matter but not the ones that do) that I have made regarding Shanahan. Take Elway out of the picture and you're left with what? What has Shanahan showed us in games that matter without a Hall of Fame QB at the helm? From his abysmal showing in Oakland to the constant under achievement since Elway's retirement.

I for one am sick of finding a new person to blame everytime the team underachieves. First it was Griese's fault, then it was Ray Rhodes, Deltha O'Neal, Ashley Lelie, Jake Plummer, etc. What's the constant throughout that entire period?

As much as you'd like to, to any outside observer (not a complete Broncos homer who sees no fault in anyone but Jake Plummer) your two positions are impossible to reconcile with eachother. It's always the QB's fault when a team isn't able to win the "meaningful" games even though there are 21 other players starting and he has control over so little. Yet the one guy who has the most control over the team is never held to account for his inability to win meaningful games.

If you give Shanahan credit for a 13-3 finish, you have to give Jake that same credit. If regular season games don't matter, then your entire argument as to Shanahan's worth based upon his record is worthless.

and let me add that im very happy to see you posting.
ive never met you, but youre exactly the type of person i'd enjoy talking sports with.
your takes are on point and backed up with good info, and youve obviously thought through the situation instead of just making knee jerk reactions.

thats rare in this ADD generation of sports fans who cant remember past last week.
kudo's to you, and welcome to the board.

jake

ps- beware. youre actually making sense and being logical. youll run into alot of resistance around here doing that!! ;D

[ignitionnight]

Pretty funny that my post count on a board dedicated to my favorite football team is being brought up by someone who maintains a website dedicated to someone they don't even like. Might want to sharpen up your own sense of irony while you're at it. :rofl:
Do you really even understand the meaning of irony?

You criticized him for having too much time on his hands after amassing almost 16,000 posts on a messageboard. This is irony.

There really is no irony in the fact that he spends time on a website dedicated to someone he doesn't like. Unless of course he accused you of the same thing.

Time for me to use your little condescending remarks. Come on champ, they teach this in high school, maybe in two years when you get there you will learn about irony.

[~Crash~]

i agree completely that knocking cutler isnt the answer, but it is kinda understandable given the nature of the situation.
plummer is getting bashed left and right by fans and media, and its completely undeserved.
the guy had a bad game. ONE bad game.
saying he's "not a playoff qb" or that he "cant come from behind" is patently riciculous.
what he did with az doesnt really matter, but the GRIT and TOUGHNESS that he showed with az DOES matter. he won a playoff game there despite being overmatched, and he has more 4th quarter comebacks than anyone in the last ten years.
yes, most of those were in az, but even as a bronco he's had alot of good 4th quarter performances, and some where he played great but the team couldnt get the win. atlanta, oakland, j-ville, etc. he did his job, only to have a dropped pass or fumble.

the defense has given up well over 100 points in our 3 playoff losses. youre not gonna win playoff games playing that kind of defense.

plummer has been great since coming here, and one bad game doesnt deserve the bashing he's taking.

cutler shows alot of promise and has a cannon for an arm, but whaddya ya'll think teams thought of heath shuler, david klingler, todd marinovich, or ryan leaf before they played?
no, i dont think cutler will be a bust, but while everyone just assumes this is plummers last year (and it very well may be), basically NO ONE acknowledges the VERY REAL possibility that cutler will NEVER live up to the hype. odds say he'll never even be as good as plummer.

the kid will likely have his time, but that time is not now, and therefore bronco fans should be united in our support of plummer.
we were ONE game away from the bowl last year (after losing the opener), and if our defense plays like it did sunday, i like our chances this year.
plummer can be a superbowl champion qb for us.
start to support him.
no need to bash cutler in the meantime, but for God's sake support plummer right now. he's earned it.

jake

Word

[Rascal]

This thread can be summarized by three groups:

1) Plummer apologists
2) Cutler jock strap polishers
3) those who think the fireshanny website owner is a moron and a liar.

***multigroup ownership is possible

[55CrushEm]

plummer is getting bashed left and right by fans and media, and its completely undeserved.
the guy had a bad game. ONE bad game.
saying he's "not a playoff qb" or that he "cant come from behind" is patently riciculous.

No, it IS deserved. The mistakes he makes are bad, rookie-type mistakes.

Never said Plummer wasn't a "playoff qb".....obviously he is. He's just not a Superbowl caliber QB.....

And lastly, it's not just ONE bad game.....he's had 9 turnovers in his last THREE games.....8 in the last 2 games.

It really is wondering whether we'll get "good Jake" or "bad Jake" from week to week.....and for a team with Superbowl aspirations.....we can't afford the recurring inconsistency.

[Clockwork Orange]

Do you really even understand the meaning of irony?

You criticized him for having too much time on his hands after amassing almost 16,000 posts on a messageboard. This is irony.

There really is no irony in the fact that he spends time on a website dedicated to someone he doesn't like. Unless of course he accused you of the same thing.

Time for me to use your little condescending remarks. Come on champ, they teach this in high school, maybe in two years when you get there you will learn about irony.

Do you? Let me explain this slowly to you.

The guy asked how long it takes for me to amass 16,000 posts on a website, which was him remarking on the amount of time I spend here. Someone who spends their time running a website dedicated to something they don't like is criticizing someone else for spending their time on a site dedicated to something they do like. That's called irony.

I can use more one syllable words next time if you need it explained further, Cletus.

[Taco John]

plummer is getting bashed left and right by fans and media, and its completely undeserved.

the guy had a bad game. ONE bad game.


How can you be serious about that? Plummer has choked in every single postseason game we've had, throwing 8 interceptions in 4 outings... Similarly, in 4 regular season openers, he's thrown 10 interceptions. That's 8 high pressure games where Plummer has completely and horribly melted down.

[Taco John]

and let me add that im very happy to see you posting.
ive never met you, but youre exactly the type of person i'd enjoy talking sports with.
your takes are on point and backed up with good info, and youve obviously thought through the situation instead of just making knee jerk reactions.

thats rare in this ADD generation of sports fans who cant remember past last week.
kudo's to you, and welcome to the board.

jake

ps- beware. youre actually making sense and being logical. youll run into alot of resistance around here doing that!! ;D



You realize that you're falling in with the mastermind behind www.fireshanahan.com, right Jake?

[mattbeymvp]

How can you be serious about that? Plummer has choked in every single postseason game we've had, throwing 8 interceptions in 4 outings... Similarly, in 4 regular season openers, he's thrown 10 interceptions. That's 8 high pressure games where Plummer has completely and horribly melted down.

Are you purposefully ignoring my response to you?

[24champ]

This thread can be summarized by three groups:

1) Plummer apologists
2) Cutler jock strap polishers
3) those who think the fireshanny website owner is a moron and a liar.

***multigroup ownership is possible

Im in the go broncos camp. I am not taking sides on a freaking QB. I think both will do well for us and I hope Jake sticks around as a backup in the future whenever Jay takes over the helm. I would hate to see Jake in another Uni.

[Taco John]

Are you purposefully ignoring my response to you?

I didn't think it was worth responding to. It's underbaked and ignores the reality that Jake would likely be washed out of the league by now if it weren't for Shanahan. Shanahan should be applauded for being able to make it as far as he has with the likes of Jake Plummer. It's truly an amazing what he's done with the guy considering his considerable shortcomings. This idea that Shanahan is a bad coach because he can't advance past the playoffs with Jake at the helm is hardy notable, and is honestly a boring read. I could barely make it through the take without falling asleep.

[Taco John]

Im in the go broncos camp. I am not taking sides on a freaking QB. I think both will do well for us and I hope Jake sticks around as a backup in the future whenever Jay takes over the helm. I would hate to see Jake in another Uni.

Get used to the idea... No way he takes a paycut to back up Cutler.

[Popps]

Shanahan was only a bad coach when he wasn't using Griese right, apparently.

Now, he's calling the PERFECT plays for Plummer at all time.

Got it.

[mattbeymvp]

I didn't think it was worth responding to. It's underbaked and ignores the reality that Jake would likely be washed out of the league by now if it weren't for Shanahan. Shanahan should be applauded for being able to make it as far as he has with the likes of Jake Plummer. It's truly an amazing what he's done with the guy considering his considerable shortcomings. This idea that Shanahan is a bad coach because he can't advance past the playoffs with Jake at the helm is hardy notable, and is honestly a boring read. I could barely make it through the take without falling asleep.

You're dodging the argument, plain and simple.

The issue isn't whether or not Shanahan can advance with Jake Plummer as his QB the issue is that Shanahan has not been able to advance (and multiple times he hasn't been able to make the playoffs) with anybody not wearing #7 taking the snaps for him.

[Popps]

Get used to the idea... No way he takes a paycut to back up Cutler.

So, Griese should have stuck around as a back-up, but Plummer shouldn't.

Hilarious!

It's almost sad, dude. Seriously. You've got to find a way to get over this.

[Taco John]

You're dodging the argument, plain and simple.

The issue isn't whether or not Shanahan can advance with Jake Plummer as his QB the issue is that Shanahan has not been able to advance (and multiple times he hasn't been able to make the playoffs) with anybody not wearing #7 taking the snaps for him.

Yeah, so? #7 wasn't able to win it all without someone wearing #30 running bahind him. So your argument is that because he hasn't yet found the right chemistry to go the distance with someone other than Elway, we should fire our Hall of Fame bound coach?

Great take!

[Taco John]

So, Griese should have stuck around as a back-up, but Plummer shouldn't.

Hilarious!

It's almost sad, dude. Seriously. You've got to find a way to get over this.


Keep futily trying Popps... You're becoming a characature of yourself. I'm sorry that Jake undermined a whole offseason worth of argument in one game, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

But to address the point you're desperately trying to make, I'd happily accept Plummer as Jay's back-up. I doubt, however, that Jake himself would accept the role. I believe Griese would have.

[Taco John]

And for the record, I think Shanahan used Griese about as well as he could... I, however, don't agree with the moves he made in acquiring WRs during that time, nor did I like the fact that he promoted a back-up center to starting left guard in an effort to protect his $40 million dollar investment... So this idea that I'm a Shanahan homer who can't criticize him is nothing short of absurd.

[mattbeymvp]

Yeah, so? #7 wasn't able to win it all without someone wearing #30 running bahind him. So your argument is that because he hasn't yet found the right chemistry to go the distance with someone other than Elway, we should fire our Hall of Fame bound coach?

Great take!

Sometimes I wonder if all of you get dizzy from all the spinning you do for Shanahan?

Whenever Shanahan makes a bad decision, whether it be drafting Marcus Nash or Willie Middlebrooks or bringing in failed free agents it's always because he has "bad luck", never that he's actually done something wrong.

When he constantly underperforms it's because he "hasn't found the right chemistry" or some other ridiculous excuse.

But whenever a player on our team (and more specifically our quarterback) performs poorly they automatically become the worst quarterback in the world, somebody who is just a flat out loser and who needs to be kicked out of town.

Do you guys even like the players on our team, or is there just some love affair with the coach? Maybe we should change the name of the franchise to the "Fighting Shanahans".

As for "chemistry", maybe if Shanahan showed his players some loyalty for once (as he hasn't with Tory James, Deltha O'Neal, Ashley Lelie, Brian Griese, Shannon Sharpe, and now Jake Plummer and Tatum Bell) the team would have a little bit of chemistry, no?

But hey, I'm sure every disagreement is the players' fault because Mike can't do anything wrong can he?

[Taco John]

Sometimes I wonder if all of you get dizzy from all the spinning you do for Shanahan?

Whenever Shanahan makes a bad decision, whether it be drafting Marcus Nash or Willie Middlebrooks or bringing in failed free agents it's always because he has "bad luck", never that he's actually done something wrong.

When he constantly underperforms it's because he "hasn't found the right chemistry" or some other ridiculous excuse.

But whenever a player on our team (and more specifically our quarterback) performs poorly they automatically become the worst quarterback in the world, somebody who is just a flat out loser and who needs to be kicked out of town.

Do you guys even like the players on our team, or is there just some love affair with the coach? Maybe we should change the name of the franchise to the "Fighting Shanahans".

As for "chemistry", maybe if Shanahan showed his players some loyalty for once (as he hasn't with Tory James, Deltha O'Neal, Ashley Lelie, Brian Griese, Shannon Sharpe, and now Jake Plummer and Tatum Bell) the team would have a little bit of chemistry, no?

But hey, I'm sure every disagreement is the players' fault because Mike can't do anything wrong can he?

Yeah, uh... none of what you just said is true...

[Tredici]

So many of you on this board are making Denver fans look absolutely clueless and idiotic, cut it out please.

Gosh! Here's an idea! When you see an individual post you feel is clueless and idiotic? WHY NOT RESPOND TO THAT POST?

See how that would work? Instead of being a cheapshot and hiding behind "so many of you" you could directly discuss the matter with whomever you disagree with.

Of course that takes some balls. Never mind.

[Taco John]

By the way... I do want to thank you for coming on board... The dynamics around this place just got real interesting... I love the fact that the Plummer Helpers are having to compliment and get in league with the guy behind the flaccid FireShanahan movement. It's like a discussion board dream come true.

Thanks for that.

[55CrushEm]

As for "chemistry", maybe if Shanahan showed his players some loyalty for once (as he hasn't with Tory James, Deltha O'Neal, Ashley Lelie, Brian Griese, Shannon Sharpe, and now Jake Plummer and Tatum Bell) the team would have a little bit of chemistry, no?


Loyalty goes both ways, slick.

In the case of O'Neal, Lelie, and Griese.....why should Shanny show them loyalty.....they SUCKED.

As far as Sharpe....I assume you're referring to him going to the Ravens for 2 years.....perhaps Sharpe was the one who was disloyal (probably cause he knew we wouldn't go anywhere with Griese).

Al Wilson, Ed McCaffrey, Rod Smith, Tom Nalen, Jason Elam......the list goes on.....hasn't Shanny been loyal to these guys ?

This argument of yours that Shanny is not loyal, well.....doesn't hold water.

[mattbeymvp]

Yeah, uh... none of what you just said is true...

In what way? Can you maybe formulate a response that is more involved than one ellipsis point abusing sentence that doesn't make any case?

[Rohirrim]

I can tell you one thing about Shanahan, and I challenge you to oppose it: If Bowlen cut him loose tomorrow, there would be at least 25 teams in a bidding war for his services.

[mattbeymvp]

Loyalty goes both ways, slick.

In the case of O'Neal, Lelie, and Griese.....why should Shanny show them loyalty.....they SUCKED.

As far as Sharpe....I assume you're referring to him going to the Ravens for 2 years.....perhaps Sharpe was the one who was disloyal (probably cause he knew we wouldn't go anywhere with Griese).

Al Wilson, Ed McCaffrey, Rod Smith, Tom Nalen, Jason Elam......the list goes on.....hasn't Shanny been loyal to these guys ?

This argument of yours that Shanny is not loyal.....doesn't hold water.

None of those players "sucked", especially not Deltha O'Neal who is playing excellent in Cincinnati, he's a bit overrated but still very good. Griese is a solid NFL quarterback, and he'll end up starting in Chicago soon, and Lelie did what he was asked, stretched the field and averaged 20 yards a reception. It's not like Shanahan put Lelie into a position to get receptions and touchdowns. How many times did he get his number called in the red zone? How many short passes (which have vastly higher completion rates than passes 20+ yards downfield) were thrown his way? Ashley did what he was asked to do, and did it quite well.

[Taco John]

And Ashley asked to be traded. That wasn't Shanahan's idea.

[mattbeymvp]

I can tell you one thing about Shanahan, and I challenge you to oppose it: If Bowlen cut him loose tomorrow, there would be at least 25 teams in a bidding war for his services.

Not Philadelphia, New England, Dallas, Miami, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Tampa Bay, Arizona, or the New York Giants. Off the top of my head on that.

So that's 22 at the most. Even if it were true, so what?

[Victor]

None of those players "sucked", especially not Deltha O'Neal who is playing excellent in Cincinnati


Evidently you missed the New England game that Deltha lost. In fact he sucked that entire season.

Deltha is hurt and isn't playing in Cincinnati, by the way. Though I agree he did play well last season.

[Victor]

Whenever Shanahan makes a bad decision, whether it be drafting Marcus Nash or Willie Middlebrooks or bringing in failed free agents it's always because he has "bad luck", never that he's actually done something wrong.



Show me a team that doesn't miss on draft picks...just one team. Ryan Leaf anyone? Pacman Jones? Akili Smith?

There is a very short list of had coaches who have won two rings (more if you count the rings from S.F.)

Humans make mistakes, Mike Shanahan is human, thus Mike Shanahan makes mistakes...get over it.

[mattbeymvp]

And Ashley asked to be traded. That wasn't Shanahan's idea.

Right, he just out of the blue asked to be traded. It has nothing to do with the organization flirting with Terrell Owens and the constant bad mouthing he was getting from the city, right?

[Rohirrim]

Not Philadelphia, New England, Dallas, Miami, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Tampa Bay, Arizona, or the New York Giants. Off the top of my head on that.

So that's 22 at the most. Even if it were true, so what?

And if Jake were cut tomorrow, how many would call?

More info to digest:

Win/Loss records:

Mike Shanahan with the Broncos: 101/60
Bill Walsh with the Niners: 92/59

[mattbeymvp]

Show me a team that doesn't miss on draft picks...just one team. Ryan Leaf anyone? Pacman Jones? Akili Smith?

There is a very short list of had coaches who have won two rings (more if you count the rings from S.F.)

Humans make mistakes, Mike Shanahan is human, thus Mike Shanahan makes mistakes...get over it.

And Jake Plummer isn't human? Is he supposed to be some kind of robo-QB who makes absolutely no mistakes?

[Rohirrim]

Right, he just out of the blue asked to be traded. It has nothing to do with the organization flirting with Terrell Owens and the constant bad mouthing he was getting from the city, right?

Use this blank space to tell us how many clutch passes (ie. game changing or game deciding) Lelie caught.

[Steve Sewell]

This thread can be summarized by three groups:

1) Plummer apologists
2) Cutler jock strap polishers
3) those who think the fireshanny website owner is a moron and a liar.

***multigroup ownership is possible

I'm all 3!

[mattbeymvp]

And if Jake were cut tomorrow, how many would call?

More info to digest:

Win/Loss records:

Mike Shanahan with the Broncos: 101/60
Bill Walsh with the Niners: 92/59

Last post before I have to go for now.

Walsh created the West Coast Offense and had success as a coach at Stanford before he even entered the NFL. His contributions as a coach go beyond his win/loss record.

How many of Walsh's former assistants and their assistants have became head coaches? In fact, Shanahan is one of them.

So many of Holmgren, Parcells, Belichick, Schottenheimer's assistants have gone on to become head coaches, yet how many of Shanahan's have? Just one, and it took Kubiak years to get a head coaching job. His name would come up as one of the leaders for a position every time a job was open and he wouldn't get the job.

That says something to me about Shanahan's philosophy and coaching style.

[Steve Sewell]

Sometimes I wonder if all of you get dizzy from all the spinning you do for Shanahan?

Whenever Shanahan makes a bad decision, whether it be drafting Marcus Nash or Willie Middlebrooks or bringing in failed free agents it's always because he has "bad luck", never that he's actually done something wrong.

When he constantly underperforms it's because he "hasn't found the right chemistry" or some other ridiculous excuse.

But whenever a player on our team (and more specifically our quarterback) performs poorly they automatically become the worst quarterback in the world, somebody who is just a flat out loser and who needs to be kicked out of town.

Do you guys even like the players on our team, or is there just some love affair with the coach? Maybe we should change the name of the franchise to the "Fighting Shanahans".

As for "chemistry", maybe if Shanahan showed his players some loyalty for once (as he hasn't with Tory James, Deltha O'Neal, Ashley Lelie, Brian Griese, Shannon Sharpe, and now Jake Plummer and Tatum Bell) the team would have a little bit of chemistry, no?

But hey, I'm sure every disagreement is the players' fault because Mike can't do anything wrong can he?


Actually, the reason most of us love Mike Shanahan is because, despite his mistakes in FA and draft, personnel decisions, and increasing league parity, he's still managed to be the winningest coach in the NFL over the last 11 years.

No one is perfect, but Mike Shanahan has fielded a highly competitive team pretty much every year he's been the coach of the Broncos.

[Victor]

And Jake Plummer isn't human? Is he supposed to be some kind of robo-QB who makes absolutely no mistakes?

No, I think that you expect mistakes from a qb...but you don't expect four turnovers per game after four years in the system. He is always capable of losing a game (St. Louis, Pittsburgh, etc.) but when is the last time he pulled a game out of his backside?

I also think you have to trust the coaches on this. If they think that Jake is the best option for winning (which it appears they do) then they are probably correct. Until they pull Jake, I assume that he is the best option for the team.

But to call anyone who speculates on a qb change an idiot, retard, or moron seems a bit silly.

[-Slap-]

I didn't think it was worth responding to. It's underbaked and ignores the reality that Jake would likely be washed out of the league by now if it weren't for Shanahan. Shanahan should be applauded for being able to make it as far as he has with the likes of Jake Plummer. It's truly an amazing what he's done with the guy considering his considerable shortcomings. This idea that Shanahan is a bad coach because he can't advance past the playoffs with Jake at the helm is hardy notable, and is honestly a boring read. I could barely make it through the take without falling asleep.

I'll tell you what pissed me off about Shanahan. He wasted four years with Griese, then, when he was finally ready to make a change, our only options were League laughing stocks Jake Plummer and Kordell Stewart. Plummer was the lucky one who wound up with Shanny and Kubes.

[freak6]

Hey mr. fireshanny.com,

Do you really think Shanny should be fired?

[freak6]

I'll tell you what pissed me off about Shanahan. He wasted four years with Griese, then, when he was finally ready to make a change, our only options were League laughing stocks Jake Plummer and Kordell Stewart. Plummer was the lucky one who wound up with Shanny and Kubes.

Arrogance. We still made it to the playoffs, and imo the SuperBowl Champs got lucky beating us on the Sharpe fumble bobble for a TD. Was that even in the playoff game? Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, you're right about those years, very frustrating. Rebuilding without rebuilding.

[TheDave]

Looks like the fireshanahan guy is tryin' to drum up some traffic...

[Arkansas Bronco]

Looks like the fireshanahan guy is tryin' to drum up some traffic...
Bussiness is slow and he needs more traffic.

[NYBronc]

Which one is the fireshanahan guy?

<IMG SRC="http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g86/VICE69/crazybaby.jpg">

[Popps]

And for the record, I think Shanahan used Griese about as well as he could..

Ahhh... to have access to the forum archives.

Conveniently unavailable.

[Popps]

Keep futily trying Popps... You're becoming a characature of yourself. .

This from the Jake-only poster? The guy who could turn a trout fishing thread into a Jake Plummer bash-a-thon?

Actually, you're not a one trick pony. You've had two tricks in the last 5 years. The other was defending Brian Griese for years, to the point where you called out Shanahan to do so.

I'm sorry that Jake undermined a whole offseason worth of argument in one game.

Even if that were true, I wouldn't lose sleep. Unfortunately for you, it's not true.

Can you state what my "argument" is Taco? I'll bet you can't. I'll bet you can't actually make a post of what my position has been. Go ahead, try.

[Taco John]

Ahhh... to have access to the forum archives.

Conveniently unavailable.



You're imagining things. I never once said Shanahan was using Griese wrong... unlike you who made the case that Shanahan used Plummer wrong in the AFC Championship game.

[Taco John]

This from the Jake-only poster? The guy who could turn a trout fishing thread into a Jake Plummer bash-a-thon?

Only if someone started choking on the trout.


The other was defending Brian Griese for years, to the point where you called out Shanahan to do so.

I absolutely called him out. Promoting the back-up center to the starting left tackle has got to be one of the poorest personnel moves in the history of the offensive line. That's to say nothing of the carosel of losers we brought in during those years. My favorites were Travis McGriff and Kevin "Shaved Nuts" Kasper. Shanahan certainly isn't above criticism in my book. Apparently you think that it's ok for you to criticize him, but no one else?



Can you state what my "argument" is Taco? I'll bet you can't. I'll bet you can't actually make a post of what my position has been. Go ahead, try.

It's hard to tell what it is today. You change it so much that I really can't get a firm grasp on it. How would you describe your argument this time?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

and let me add that im very happy to see you posting. ive never met you, but youre exactly the type of person i'd enjoy talking sports with.
;D


Hilarious! LOL ROFL!

Here you go, he's the owner of this site (http://fireshanahan.com/). You two can revel in the "Plummer" together there for the whole season. Hilarious!

[TDforTD]

Good thread. Surprised hardly anyone agrees.

[Popps]

Shanahan certainly isn't above criticism in my book. Apparently you think that it's ok for you to criticize him, but no one else?

No, I just don't criticize him because I'm in love with one player... and then later use him as defense for my current position because he's finally done what I wanted him to do.

You can't have it both ways, not that this has ever stopped you.


It's hard to tell what it is today. You change it so much that I really can't get a firm grasp on it. How would you describe your argument this time?

Taco, one thing that's going to help you get better is to develop your own style.

When you you take posts that I made about you, and just re-type them as if they're relevant to me, it just makes you look even less effective as a poster.

Your position has gone from:

1. QB is afterthought
2. We need compeition
3. We need a franchise QB

... in a matter of a couple of years.

My position has been that we need a dominant, playoff defense with a front four that controls the LOS. That coupled with a balanced, effective offense is what I've been calling for.

The defense playing a decent game on Sunday didn't change my opinion on that. But, you've got Jake Plummer so far up in you, you just can't see beyond anything but him.

It's disturbing. Only that Becky chick displayed a more disturbing infatuation with a single player.

[Taco John]

No, I just don't criticize him because I'm in love with one player... and then later use him as defense for my current position because he's finally done what I wanted him to do.

You can't have it both ways, not that this has ever stopped you.


You're still trying to get that house of cards to stand up? Give it a rest. Plummer has more than proven my point. I get that your only defense for Plummer is to say that I made a case for Griese, but when are you going to realize that it isn't working? Plummer has choked at nearly every high pressure moment he's been faced with in Denver. What does any of that have to do with Griese?



Taco, one thing that's going to help you get better is to develop your own style.

Get better? What are you talking about? I've got a rep meter full of "how does it feel to be vindicated in week one" messages, and a board full of people who now see the point I've been trying to make about Plummer and high pressure situations. You can't get any better than being dead on.



It's disturbing. Only that Becky chick displayed a more disturbing infatuation with a single player.


Your infatuation for your boyfriend Plummer is starting to compare. But just for laughs, why don't you tell us again how Shanahan used Plummer wrong in the AFC Championship game.

[Taco John]

"UH Oh! Taco John is commenting on Plummer's latest choke! I'd better bring up Griese to protect Plummer, even though Griese has absolutely no bearing on our team today and has nothing to do with Plummer choking every time the pressure rises !"

[Popps]

"UH Oh! Taco John is commenting on Plummer's latest choke! I'd better bring up Griese to protect Plummer, even though Griese has absolutely no bearing on our team today and has nothing to do with Plummer choking every time the pressure rises !"


Right, Griese only has to do with your bizarre, disturbing infatuation with running his successor out of town from the day he put on a Bronco uniform.

My position has been clear, and I'm a big fan of the Cutler move. So, you're going to have to bark up another tree.

I have been consistently critical of our defense, and more particularly the line... dating back to even forums prior to this one.

Plummer has less to do with my actual position than the defense. Everyone else here seems to realize that. But again, you're in such a Jake-haze you can't type 3 words without mentioning the guy.

[Taco John]

Right, Griese only has to do with your bizarre, disturbing infatuation with running his successor out of town from the day he put on a Bronco uniform.


Oh, I get it... If you repeat it enough times, despite the fact that I actually predicted we'd win a Superbowl with Plummer at one time, and it makes it true. It's great when you can twist reality just by repeating it over and over again. You simply decide something, and stick to it despite what the evidence says. How can I win against that? Simply: people here are actually smarter than you're giving them credit for. They're not so stupid as you seem to believe.


I have been consistently critical of our defense, and more particularly the line... dating back to even forums prior to this one.

Plummer has less to do with my actual position than the defense. Everyone else here seems to realize that. But again, you're in such a Jake-haze you can't type 3 words without mentioning the guy.


Mmmmhmmmm... yeah, exactly... All the same stuff that I said about our offensive line and wide receivers during the Griese era. But here we are years later, and you still have refused to accept my position, instead opting to repeat the same thing over and over and over and over ad naseum. So here we are after Plummer has choked yet again in a high pressure game, and you can't stop talking about Griese... and we're supposed to believe it's doesn't have anything to do with protecting Plummer?

What was that you said about me needing to change my style?

[Taco John]

Predicatable Popps response:

"The difference is, I'm willing to abandon Plummer the minute it looks like he's the problem and it's not everyone else around him..."

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Plummer has less to do with my actual position than the defense. Everyone else here seems to realize that.

LOL

[Taco John]

For what it's worth, Popps... I think you're absolutely right about the defense needing to improve. I'm all in favor of using every draft pick next year on defensive linemen and safeties if that's what it takes. But this past game completely undermined your entire offseasons worth of argment that all we need is to improve our defense. The fact that you don't realize that is amusing, but predictable. Our defense, despite watching the offense choke away the field position battle, kept the Rams from scoring touchdowns. While they weren't able to do that against a playoff calibre team like Pittsburgh, even if they had, there's no reason to believe Plummer could have don't his part to keep us in the game. That's been my argument against Plummer since 2004 when he choked away the San Diego game. Prior to that, I had Plummer winning the Superbowl for us and dedicating the season to the memory of his friend Pat Tillman. But I watched Plummer when the pressure was on, and saw what he was made out of.

Like with Griese, I'll be happy to make the argument that we should try to keep him around to back-up Cutler if Plummer is willing to stick around. The difference, however, is that Shanahan did a better job of protecting the organization in terms of dead cap money should he have to cut Plummer than he did with Griese, so there won't be as much cap impact to absorb in one year as there was before. Also, I doubt that Plummer will be willing to stick around and accept a back-up role, whereas I believed Griese would have.

In any case, you're right that our defense needs to improve, especially in the playoffs. I'm hoping to see them pull the same act as our Superbowl teams, where they just pulled it together nearly out of the blue and just played out of their heads during the clutch stretch. That kind of thing is rare though, so hopefully our offense can do their part as well.

[Rascal]

For what it's worth, Popps... I think you're absolutely right about the defense needing to improve. I'm all in favor of using every draft pick next year on defensive linemen and safeties if that's what it takes. But this past game completely undermined your entire offseasons worth of argment that all we need is to improve our defense. The fact that you don't realize that is amusing, but predictable. Our defense, despite watching the offense choke away the field position battle, kept the Rams from scoring touchdowns. While they weren't able to do that against a playoff calibre team like Pittsburgh, even if they had, there's no reason to believe Plummer could have don't his part to keep us in the game. That's been my argument against Plummer since 2004 when he choked away the San Diego game. Prior to that, I had Plummer winning the Superbowl for us and dedicating the season to the memory of his friend Pat Tillman. But I watched Plummer when the pressure was on, and saw what he was made out of.

Like with Griese, I'll be happy to make the argument that we should try to keep him around to back-up Cutler if Plummer is willing to stick around. The difference, however, is that Shanahan did a better job of protecting the organization in terms of dead cap money should he have to cut Plummer than he did with Griese, so there won't be as much cap impact to absorb in one year as there was before. Also, I doubt that Plummer will be willing to stick around and accept a back-up role, whereas I believed Griese would have.

In any case, you're right that our defense needs to improve, especially in the playoffs. I'm hoping to see them pull the same act as our Superbowl teams, where they just pulled it together nearly out of the blue and just played out of their heads during the clutch stretch. That kind of thing is rare though, so hopefully our offense can do their part as well.

Solid post. Although I disagree with some of the minor details.

IMO, if we don't get some top notch D-line help next year it had better be because we got an incredible RB. Also I wouldn't be opposed to trading Jake to get some of that top notch D-line talent. If we go 0-4, and Jake is performing like he did this week, then I think we need to see what we have in Cutler. If Jake turns it around and plays similar to how he did last year, fully accepting that he may have another "jake" moment in the playoffs, I say we stick with him this year.

[Clockwork Orange]

Also, I doubt that Plummer will be willing to stick around and accept a back-up role, whereas I believed Griese would have.

I've always wondered why you believe that. You (save for the aforementioned Becky) seem to be the only one that's under the impression that Griese was such a team guy that he'd be willing to stay on as a backup after Shanahan had clearly lost faith in him.

That's not even taking into account that he'd have been the most expensive backup QB in the NFL.

[Taco John]

IMO, if we don't get some top notch D-line help next year it had better be because we got an incredible RB.

I completely agree with that. It's thrilling to see how this team is coming together for the long haul, and how we can rebuild on the fly, while contending.


Also I wouldn't be opposed to trading Jake to get some of that top notch D-line talent. If we go 0-4, and Jake is performing like he did this week, then I think we need to see what we have in Cutler. If Jake turns it around and plays similar to how he did last year, fully accepting that he may have another "jake" moment in the playoffs, I say we stick with him this year.


I'm in favor of sticking with "No Mistake Jake" through the regular season as long as possible. I'm not confident in his ability to make it through the playoffs without a relapse though, putting me at a crossroads between getting our new guy in there for experience and a potential end run next year, or gambling away another offseason on Jake with nothing to show for it in the end.

Battling back from 12 points down against the Rams would have gone a long way towards establishing some confidence in the guy again... I'd love for Jake to take those confidence building opportunities to show me up and let the Jake believers strut their stuff around here. I WANT Jake to prove me wrong, not see him fail.

[Tredici]

Not Philadelphia, New England, Dallas, Miami, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Tampa Bay, Arizona, or the New York Giants. Off the top of my head on that.

So that's 22 at the most. Even if it were true, so what?

This list is interesting. How long does Andy Reid get a pass in Philly for not winning the big one? How long does Gruden hold on in Tampa Bay since he hasn't won anything since taking over the team Dungy assembled? How long does Dungy get a pass for never having taken talent laden teams the distance? What has Mike Holmgren done without Brett Favre? Denny Green has been fired before. Remember when he had the Vikings and they spectacularly underacheived in the playoffs? What has Tom Coughlin won that will ensure him a free ride in New York? Cower is already flirting with retirement. Parcells? What has he done without Belicheck? Dallas doesn't make it and he'll do what he does best. Quits.

Your top of the head list is fairly shoddy.

Just sayin'.

Shanahan is as good if not better than any of those options.

[Taco John]

I've always wondered why you believe that. You (save for the aforementioned Becky) seem to be the only one that's under the impression that Griese was such a team guy that he'd be willing to stay on as a backup after Shanahan had clearly lost faith in him.

That's not even taking into account that he'd have been the most expensive backup QB in the NFL.


Just something a little birdy told me during the fall-out. Griese's comment to said birdy is that he just wants whatever is best for the team, and that he'd accept whatever that is and move forward. He actually had more close friends in the locker room than people want to give him credit for, including Rod. Rod's support for Griese to the end is something that was conveniently ignored... But no matter. I'm glad Griese is gone, it just happened a year before I wished it would have due to the cap implications of cutting him when we did. In the end, we've got what looks to be our dream quarterback, so as I always say in life: everything happens for a reason.

[Clockwork Orange]

Gotcha. Just something I was curious about.

[CBF1]

Jay Cutler on the other hand did what again?

He signed a long term contract for more than a loser like you will see in your families entire lifetime. Buy a vowel and get a clue.

[Rascal]

I completely agree with that. It's thrilling to see how this team is coming together for the long haul, and how we can rebuild on the fly, while contending.


I completely agree. Shanny and Co. deserve an A+ for the past two years in their team building, something the moron from the fireshanny site can't comprehend. We basically have our offense of the future in place now, and are allowing some of them to get experience while the rest sit back and learn. That is incredible IMO.



I'm in favor of sticking with "No Mistake Jake" through the regular season as long as possible. I'm not confident in his ability to make it through the playoffs without a relapse though, putting me at a crossroads between getting our new guy in there for experience and a potential end run next year, or gambling away another offseason on Jake with nothing to show for it in the end.

Battling back from 12 points down against the Rams would have gone a long way towards establishing some confidence in the guy again... I'd love for Jake to take those confidence building opportunities to show me up and let the Jake believers strut their stuff around here. I WANT Jake to prove me wrong, not see him fail.

If jake succeeds this team will obvously do well, if Jake doesn't do well then I believe it will be a struggling year with Cutler in there simply because he doesn't have the experience. He just isn't ready...close but not yet. If we are more competitive with an experienced Cutler then a Plummer of his last two games, then make the switch. But Shanny will have to lose his confidence in Plummer first for that to happen, and I don't believe he is there. If he has some more repeat performances, then I'd say he probably will make the switch.

What do you think Jake, assuming he has a year similar to last year, could get in a trade?

[Popps]

For what it's worth, Popps... I think you're absolutely right about the defense needing to improve. .

F But this past game completely undermined your entire offseasons worth of argment thatall we need is to improve our defense..

Now, now, Taco. There's a word in there that is factually incorrect. Can you guess which one it is?

I never said we couldn't improve at the QB position, and I was ALL OVER this board, banging the table for us to bring in Walker, and have had dozens of discussions about improving the running game, the loss of Anderson, etc.

My stance has been this....

Jake's performance in our three playoff losses has not been A REASON for the defense to fall apart out of the gate.

The problem with this forum is that you've got such a massive divide, each trying to prove their own side (pro or anti-Jake) to be correct, that each fails to realize that there are other factors involved in winning.

My stance as to Plummer is that, last year and THIS year, he was/is our guy. What we SHOULD have done was gotten deadly serious about improving the play of our front seven... so we could win a SB NOW.

That's my stance, Taco. It's not some pro-Jake position. I do think he runs the offense well when he's not getting murdered. I also think he makes bonehead throws, usually when trying to dig us out of holes.
Since he's our only real option (last year)... my stance has been... why not improve the problems around him.

We went 13-3 and played in an AFCCG.... playoffs three years in a row, with a .750 winning percentage. It's not like we couldn't improve enough to win one more game, which was all we needed to do last year to get in.

When Cutler takes over, again... I'll be a huge fan. I'm a fan. I like when our players play well. I'm not going to root against him to fail so some position (I don't really have) can be correct.

However, if our defense continues to fall apart in big games right out of the gate, you'll hear me saying the same thing I've bee saying for 5 years.

It won't matter how good Cutler is if we give up 5 scores on the first five possessions of a playoff game.

[Cito Pelon]

I have strong opininons about this QB contoversy, so I'll finally state them:

To the Plummer-haters: Wait and see, butt-faces.

To the Cutler-lovers: Wait and see, butt-faces.

Go piss in ya hats! I'll wipe the curb wit' ya's! ;-)

[-Slap-]

Just something a little birdy told me during the fall-out. Griese's comment to said birdy is that he just wants whatever is best for the team, and that he'd accept whatever that is and move forward. He actually had more close friends in the locker room than people want to give him credit for, including Rod. Rod's support for Griese to the end is something that was conveniently ignored... But no matter. I'm glad Griese is gone, it just happened a year before I wished it would have due to the cap implications of cutting him when we did. In the end, we've got what looks to be our dream quarterback, so as I always say in life: everything happens for a reason.

One more year with Griese as starter and I would have started fireshanahan.com.

[~Crash~]

I'll tell you what pissed me off about Shanahan. He wasted four years with Griese, then, when he was finally ready to make a change, our only options were League laughing stocks Jake Plummer and Kordell Stewart. Plummer was the lucky one who wound up with Shanny and Kubes.


We realy wanted Warner but he signed with New York .

[Circle Orange]

I'm not knocking Cutler's physical ability. He has a cannon, he's strong, his neck is thick I guess.

He has shown absolutely nothing that suggests he's anywhere near ready to start in an NFL game. The fact of the matter is, Cutler has never had to perform under pressure once. He's never had the pressure of playing in meaningful games , and to act like he's somehow going to step into the NFL and become the second coming of Dan Marino is beyond idiotic.

His neck may be thick, but he needs to work on that doughy chin...it looks weird on a guy so young. Time for some 'chin' ups...but I guess you can say everyone is getting a bit carried away too soon.

[Steve Sewell]

You know what's hilarious about this thread?

Taco and Popps both have their babies as their avatars....how ironic.

No offense guys...

[Popps]

You know what's hilarious about this thread?

Taco and Popps both have their babies as their avatars....how ironic.

No offense guys...

Taco copied off of me.

:~ohyah!:

[Houshyamama]

Cutting Shanahan loose would be the dumbest move this franchise has ever or would ever make. This is football boys, sometimes you win sometimes you lose. Shanahan's accomplishments outweigh his failures by such a great margin that I have trouble comprehending your anti-Shanahan arguments. If you really want Shanny out of Denver I propose you do the following:
1. Put down the joint
2. Open you mouth big and wide.
3. Stick your head in the toilet.

[Houshmazode]

Cutting Shanahan loose would be the dumbest move this franchise has ever or would ever make. This is football boys, sometimes you win sometimes you lose. Shanahan's accomplishments outweigh his failures by such a great margin that I have trouble comprehending your anti-Shanahan arguments. If you really want Shanny out of Denver I propose you do the following:
1. Put down the joint
2. Open you mouth big and wide.
3. Stick your head in the toilet.

LOL.

Good points. Some of you must not have seen the stats they showed during the game. In the last 10 years, Broncos are number 1 in yards, scoring, rushing offense, passing offense, wins and a couple other things or something like that. Shanahan stays, Foster goes and Green comes back would be fine with me.

[Taco John]

However, if our defense continues to fall apart in big games right out of the gate, you'll hear me saying the same thing I've bee saying for 5 years.




I'm not going to go point by point... I will say however that Jake isn't typically digging out of holes the defense gets us in, but rather holes he's dug the defense into, which is why I'm so hard on him, moreso than the defense. I was upset that the defense gave up so many points in the Pittsburgh game, but upon reflection I realized that the defense only gave up 13 points when they started on the side of the field that they're supposed to start from... and just like we saw against the Rams, Jake did what he could to dig those guys into an impossible position and fend for their lives wholly uncapable of throwing them a life line. ONE farging first half touchdown is all he needed to lead our team to in order to put is within striking distance of the Steelers and we go into the locker room with some optimism and a chance to reload. And don't give me this "they couldn't have stopped the Steelers," crap... THEY DID stop the Steelers in the second half until Jake threw another pick and lost another fumble. Again, I repeat, the Steelers only scored 13 points from their side of scrimmage.

So yes, I was upset about the ONE touchdown that they gave up... that 90 yard drive where they couldn't get off the field was excrutiating. But it wasn't the end of the world if Jake could have led the team to a single, solitary first half touchdown.

I don't know who to blame for Jake choking in the clutch except for Jake. I don't know why I'm supposed to be searching for other people to blame for Jake choking either.

[Tredici]

There are some glaringly obvious things about a poster like mattbeymvp. Of course he lurks here. Much of his criticism of Shanahan comes from forums like this. And of the articles the members link here. The truth is, people are critical of various decisions or courses of action and post them. That's where this type of bottomfeeder sucks them up and then parades them as his observations. Has he posted one thing that isn't known? Is there one original thought in his opinions? No.

He spits out stuff like his coaches list that won't hold up under scrutiny. Neither will his "coaching tree". Fact. When Matt Millen was named GM of the Lions his first choice was Gary Kubiak. Gary politely declined the interview. Fact. Mike Heimerdinger could've been considered for a head coaching job in the 10 job carousel last season. He chose to return to Denver to work for the Broncos organization. The reality is the Broncos are a class organization and people choose to work there. The cohesiveness and longevity of the staff is a tribute to Shanahan and Bowlen.

It's quite simple, really. This guy sucks up every negative word about Shanahan. He has found some of them here. The difference? Everyone else has perspective. They can recognize the good as well as the bad. But then most folks don't have the need to be an attention whore.

[Rascal]

There are some glaringly obvious things about a poster like mattbeymvp. Of course he lurks here. Much of his criticism of Shanahan comes from forums like this. And of the articles the members link here. The truth is, people are critical of various decisions or courses of action and post them. That's where this type of bottomfeeder sucks them up and then parades them as his observations. Has he posted one thing that isn't known? Is there one original thought in his opinions? No.

He spits out stuff like his coaches list that won't hold up under scrutiny. Neither will his "coaching tree". Fact. When Matt Millen was named GM of the Lions his first choice was Gary Kubiak. Gary politely declined the interview. Fact. Mike Heimerdinger could've been considered for a head coaching job in the 10 job carousel last season. He chose to return to Denver to work for the Broncos organization. The reality is the Broncos are a class organization and people choose to work there. The cohesiveness and longevity of the staff is a tribute to Shanahan and Bowlen.

It's quite simple, really. This guy sucks up every negative word about Shanahan. He has found some of them here. The difference? Everyone else has perspective. They can recognize the good as well as the bad. But then most folks don't have the need to be an attention whore.

And that is why you don't get on Tred's bad side. :thumbsup:

If posts could be framed, this would be in a museum.

mattbeymvp, you were just owned and owned in an overwhelming fashion.

[-Slap-]

And that is why you don't get on Tred's bad side. :thumbsup:

If posts could be framed, this would be in a museum.

mattbeymvp, you were just owned and owned in an overwhelming fashion.

She took him apart with surgical precision.......:~ohyah!:

[Popps]

. I will say however that Jake isn't typically digging out of holes the defense gets us in, but rather holes he's dug the defense into.

Wrong, naturally.

Go ahead and check the drive charts and box scores of our playoff losses, Taco. I've given you that statistical evidence enough times. You can look at it yourself this time... find out that you're wrong, and then come in and spin it however you'd like, but that statement will still be patently untrue.

but upon reflection I realized that the defense only gave up 13 points when they started on the side of the field that they're supposed to start from

Oh, so... wait, I thought you were so proud of our D for holding St. Louis to 3's instead of 7's?

Now, it doesn't matter? If a team gets the ball on our 45, they should be granted an instant touchdown?

.. and what about the 80 yard drive they shoved down our throats... then punched it in not once, but TWICE after the refs tried to bail us out? (This after a sustained scoring drive by our offense.)

Again, Taco... you can just keep repeating things, but it won't make them true.

[Popps]

See, Taco... you're infatuation with Plummer forces you to make this ABOUT Jake.

My point is, has been and will remain about the defense. If Cutler takes over, and the D stinks it up in the playoffs like they have been.... I'll still criticize them, and wouldn't expect Cutler to have to dig us out of 35 point first half deficits.

[watermock]

Your both making suppositions and assertions.

What 35 point first half defecits?

[Popps]

2003
-Indy scores 14 points in the first 10 minutes. Plummer throws one INT, after the defense had allowed a 2 score deficit. He threw one INT that game and finished with a 100 passer rating.

-2004
-Indy opens with a TD, we answer with a FG... and indy rattles off two more TDs. Plummer throws an INT.... down 21-3


-Pittsburgh scores on all of its first 4 possessions. Jake plummer throws his first INT near half-time, down 14 pts.

There, made it easy for you.

[Popps]

Your both making suppositions and assertions.

What 35 point first half defecits?

My bad, it was 31-3 at half.

Hard to keep track of our first half double-digit playoff deficits.

[Popps]

Manning got the Colts on the scoreboard quickly, engineering a six-play, 70 yard drive that included two runs and three receptions by running back Edgerrin James.


Manning capped off the drive with a 31-yard touchdown pass to wide receiver Brandon Stokely
Denver offered a whimper of hope when they answered with an eight minute, 12-play drive that resulted in a 49-yard Jason Elam field goal, but Manning marched the Colts down the field on an 81-yard drive of his own.

The Broncos’ performance in the contest was epitomized by the eighth play of the drive, when Manning hooked up with wide receiver Marvin Harrison on a 46-yard play for the first of his two touchdown receptions on the day. Harrison made the catch as he fell at the Denver 30-yard line, and as two defenders argued over who blew the coverage, the untouched wideout got to his feet and raced into the end zone.

[mattbeymvp]

There are some glaringly obvious things about a poster like mattbeymvp. Of course he lurks here. Much of his criticism of Shanahan comes from forums like this. And of the articles the members link here. The truth is, people are critical of various decisions or courses of action and post them. That's where this type of bottomfeeder sucks them up and then parades them as his observations. Has he posted one thing that isn't known? Is there one original thought in his opinions? No.

He spits out stuff like his coaches list that won't hold up under scrutiny. Neither will his "coaching tree". Fact. When Matt Millen was named GM of the Lions his first choice was Gary Kubiak. Gary politely declined the interview. Fact. Mike Heimerdinger could've been considered for a head coaching job in the 10 job carousel last season. He chose to return to Denver to work for the Broncos organization. The reality is the Broncos are a class organization and people choose to work there. The cohesiveness and longevity of the staff is a tribute to Shanahan and Bowlen.

It's quite simple, really. This guy sucks up every negative word about Shanahan. He has found some of them here. The difference? Everyone else has perspective. They can recognize the good as well as the bad. But then most folks don't have the need to be an attention whore.


I bet you got high marks in Psych 101. Can we tone down the self-righteousness for just a minute? Let's enter the realm of reality, shall we?

I had no idea that this forum existed until I saw people were coming to my site through links posted here. I saw the domain in the referral logs and went here. I posted in a thread (found through referral logs) about my site where I was being personally attacked a while back. I check the list of topics sporadically for kicks. When I saw the Cutler topics I decided to post.

My arguments are mine and mine alone, there is a user here named "TDforTD" who posted in this thread who posted with me on another message board system and will vouch for the fact that I have been making observations of this kind for years.

Perspective what? I am putting things into perspective, you people are the ones still blinded by Super Bowl parades that you cannot bring yourself to realize that the emperor is stark naked. It's like listening to conservatives go on about how Iraq was involved in 9/11. Regardless of the facts of the situation, some people have just convinced themselves that things are a certain way.

Please, feel free to scrutinize the list of coaches I named. Explain to me why any of those cities would take Shanahan over the coaches they currently have. We're talking guys like Gibbs, Parcells, Belichick, Reid, Coughlin, Cowher, Dungy, Gruden, Holmgren and the like. Sorry, those guys have pretty secure jobs.

Whenever you want to stop hiding up in your tree of false intellectual superiority and ridiculous assumptions about me feel free to do so. I'll be waiting when you actually have time to make counterpoints to what I've said instead of making hilarious and baseless personal attacks.

[Killericon]

Can we tone down the self-righteousness for just a minute?

I am putting things into perspective, you people are the ones still blinded by Super Bowl parades that you cannot bring yourself to realize that the emperor is stark naked. It's like listening to conservatives go on about how Iraq was involved in 9/11. Regardless of the facts of the situation, some people have just convinced themselves that things are a certain way.

Uh-huh...

[Atlas]

Just something a little birdy told me during the fall-out. Griese's comment to said birdy is that he just wants whatever is best for the team, and that he'd accept whatever that is and move forward. He actually had more close friends in the locker room than people want to give him credit for, including Rod. Rod's support for Griese to the end is something that was conveniently ignored... But no matter. I'm glad Griese is gone, it just happened a year before I wished it would have due to the cap implications of cutting him when we did. In the end, we've got what looks to be our dream quarterback, so as I always say in life: everything happens for a reason.


I think Greise is going to be a good QB in the NFL. I think he just got off to a bad start in Denver.

[BroncoBuff]

I unmask thee devil! Let the thread derailment begin!

http://www.fireshanahan.com/




The guy is hilarious! He starts a provocative thread so he can link it back to his website to "show" that we are the idiots.

Anyway, we can all move along now.


BTW....

I figured this out as soon as he started to bash shanahan.

All praise to the Sherlock of the Crush! :notworthy:


"I figured this out as soon as he started to bash shanahan." Hilarious! ... he's the only dipstick on Earth who can be immediatlely identified by stating just one mindless, obsessive, insane opinion.

[Blueflame]

See, Taco... you're infatuation with Plummer forces you to make this ABOUT Jake.

My point is, has been and will remain about the defense. If Cutler takes over, and the D stinks it up in the playoffs like they have been.... I'll still criticize them, and wouldn't expect Cutler to have to dig us out of 35 point first half deficits.

Actually, this has been about Jake from the get-go... look at the thread title "When Jay Cutler gets in and starts... blah, blah, blah". For Cutler to start, the man who is currently in the starting job has to be demoted, right? TJ didn't make this about Jake... the OP did.

BTW... somebody's gotta say it... what about the ol' 100-post rule?

[fontaine]

the guy had a bad game. ONE bad game.
saying he's "not a playoff qb" or that he "cant come from behind" is patently riciculous.
what he did with az doesnt really matter, but the GRIT and TOUGHNESS that he showed with az DOES matter. he won a playoff game there despite being overmatched, and he has more 4th quarter comebacks than anyone in the last ten years.

. . .

plummer has been great since coming here, and one bad game doesnt deserve the bashing he's taking.

. . .
plummer can be a superbowl champion qb for us.
start to support him.
no need to bash cutler in the meantime, but for God's sake support plummer right now. he's earned it.

jake


This isn't ONE bad game. In the past three competitive games Jake has had 9 turnovers.

Let me repeat that for you: In his three past games (two of which were argueably the most important of his career in the playoffs last year), Jake has turned the ball over 9 freakin' times.

Just to be fair to the guy he did chip in 2 TD passes in those three games (woohoo) and a couple of fumbles weren't directly his fault.

But Jake has sucked for a while now.

And that pass rush excuse doesn't work. Lousy QBs cave into pass rush and throw up ints. Good QBs protect the ball and throw it away or take the sack. If Aaron Freakin' Brooks can protect the ball under heavy pass rush then expecting Plummer to do the same goes without saying.

I'm not asking Jake to be something he isn't and never will be, a clutch pocket passer. I'm over that. All I'm asking him is not to shoot this team in the foot to the tune of four turnovers, when everyone else is playing well like the defense, RBs etc.

Protect the football you freakin' ****tard!

Jake has the same damn responsibilities as everyone else on the team. That's why it's called a team. If a player is dogging it for three games in a row and actually hurting the team in important games because of his stupidity then he's due criticism just like everyone else. No one player is immune.

Jake can either chip in and start playing like we know he can or he can get the **** out.

[Northman]

This isn't ONE bad game. In the past three competitive games Jake has had 9 turnovers.

Let me repeat that for you: In his three past games (two of which were argueably the most important of his career in the playoffs last year), Jake has turned the ball over 9 freakin' times.

Just to be fair to the guy he did chip in 2 TD passes in those three games (woohoo) and a couple of fumbles weren't directly his fault.

But Jake has sucked for a while now. Can he manage games against weak defenses were our entire offense is carrying him? Yes he can.

And that pass rush excuse doesn't work. Lousy QBs cave into pass rush and throw up ints. Good QBs protect the ball and throw it away or take the sack. If Aaron Freakin' Brooks can protect the ball under heavy pass rush then expecting Plummer to do the same goes without saying.

I'm not asking Jake to be something he isn't and never will be, a clutch pocket passer. I'm over that. All I'm asking him is not to shoot this team in the foot to the tune of four turnovers, when everyone else is playing well like the defense, RBs etc.

Protect the football you freakin' ****tard!

Jake has the same damn responsibilities as everyone else on the team. That's why it's called a team. If a player is dogging it for three games in a row and actually hurting the team in important games because of his stupidity then he's due criticism just like everyone else. No one player is immune.

Jake can either chip in and start playing like we know he can or he can get the **** out.



Couldnt have said it better myself. I understand that at times the rest of the team fails at executing their jobs correctly. But Jake's responsibility is to take care of the ball and not put us in a worse position than we already are. And 9 turnovers in the last 3 games is UNACCEPTABLE on any level. If this was Brian Griese there would be a witch hunt to oust him out of here. Sorry, but a 10 year veteran with 4 years under his belt with this system should not be playing like this.

[fontaine]

Couldnt have said it better myself. I understand that at times the rest of the team fails at executing their jobs correctly. But Jake's responsibility is to take care of the ball and not put us in a worse position than we already are. And 9 turnovers in the last 3 games is UNACCEPTABLE on any level. If this was Brian Griese there would be a witch hunt to oust him out of here. Sorry, but a 10 year veteran with 4 years under his belt with this system should not be playing like this.

That's what I don't get. I'm not a pro or anti Plummer. I'm just pro Broncos. And I see no way for the team to win with Plummer playing like he has for the past three games. This isn't an isolated occurance.

It's my belief that Defenses have shifted their focus in the way they attack our Offense. They're willing to sacrifice their run defense in order to setup a gameplan to contain Plummer in the pocket, and force extra blitzing disguised by a 3-4 front.

In this situation, ideally you want your QB to take advantage of the aggressive blitz by going over the top and beating them for big plays when there are gaping holes in the secondary because of the blitz.

Plummer hasn't done this.

So in the least you expect your QB to either take the sack (protect the football) or throw the ball away (protect the football). You don't expect and condone, under any circumstances, the QB fumbling the ball or throwing an interception, especially when he's now doing it when there isn't pressure. Two of those ints came when he was rolling out and one the other he stupidly threw from the back foot directy to Ty Hill.

[Taco John]

That's what I don't get. I'm not a pro or anti Plummer. I'm just pro Broncos.


I hear that... But apparently some folks would like to believe that I grew up watching the Broncos waiting for a certain Michigan quarterback to come in, fail, and then have my entire life of takes from then on revolve around that situation... as if I've got some sort of deep seeded alignment with Brian Griese that runs deeper than the time period between 2001-2003.

I just want to see the Broncos win championships...

[fontaine]

I hear that... But apparently some folks would like to believe that I grew up watching the Broncos waiting for a certain Michigan quarterback to come in, fail, and then have my entire life of takes from then on revolve around that situation... as if I've got some sort of deep seeded alignment with Brian Griese that runs deeper than the time period between 2001-2003.


Don't worry about that. There's a lot of history on this site and a lot of people like to push buttons!

I never thought you were a Griese Groupie, although I didn't agree with your logic on keeping him around if we beefed up the LT position. At some point your QB has go to take the next step and I felt Griese couldn't do that.

I still want Plummer to start because I believe that he can turn it around. I'm just really skeptical of his competence under playoff situations and against this type of defense we've seen in the past three games. And in the NFL if you don't grow and evolve beyond your known weakeness then you're just treading water around sharks.

I'm so freakin' glad we drafted Jay Cutler. Thank you Mike Shanahan.

[fontaine]

You're dodging the argument, plain and simple.

The issue isn't whether or not Shanahan can advance with Jake Plummer as his QB the issue is that Shanahan has not been able to advance (and multiple times he hasn't been able to make the playoffs) with anybody not wearing #7 taking the snaps for him.

How's that an issue? It's pretty much given that any decent coach needs good players to win championships. Why should the QB position be any different.

How many championships did Cowher win without Roethlisberger? Bellichick without Brady, Jim Johnson without Aikman and so on.

If you're going to make a point at least try to make it worthwhile because the football knowledge around here is pretty high. Otherwise you should just crawl back to your website and pat yourself on the back on how many hits your site is temporarily getting.

[watermock]

We might as well of been arguing with France.

[Rohirrim]

I'll tell you one thing I'm hoping for. I'm hoping the Broncos smoke the Cheffies so bad that Shanahan can put Cutler in for the entire 4th quarter (w/o stirring up any controversy) and we can see Jay go up against an NFL defense... Ooops. Nevermind.

[missingnumber7]

I hear that... But apparently some folks would like to believe that I grew up watching the Broncos waiting for a certain Michigan quarterback to come in, fail, and then have my entire life of takes from then on revolve around that situation... as if I've got some sort of deep seeded alignment with Brian Griese that runs deeper than the time period between 2001-2003.

I just want to see the Broncos win championships...

So does that make jake in some manner the second coming of Brian?

[Victor]

So does that make jake in some manner the second coming of Brian?

No...Brian actually gutted out a win against the Raiders with a separated shoulder.

[sirhcyennek81]

No...Brian actually gutted out a win against the Raiders with a separated shoulder.


Also said a game vs the Raiders was going to define his career.


:Broncos:

[Taco John]

Also said a game vs the Raiders was going to define his career.


:Broncos:



I wish Jake would have the balls to do that in a high pressure situation.

[Rohirrim]

I'll tell you all one thing. Picture in your mind Jake's pass to Devoe. He rolls out right, looks short, then sees Devoe getting open deep. He throws the pass...

Now replay that exact setup with Jay as the QB. Do the passes look any different? The trajectories? The speed?

[Taco John]

I'll tell you all one thing. Picture in your mind Jake's pass to Devoe. He rolls out right, looks short, then sees Devoe getting open deep. He throws the pass...

Now replay that exact setup with Jay as the QB. Do the passes look any different? The trajectories? The speed?



...the touchdown... *dreaming*

[watermock]

Once the game slows down, because Jay is no idiot, he's going to be devestating. He will see DEVO coming back and rifle a pass into his chest. Short or Long, don't just throw it to the DB.

[Hulamau]

Seeing as how that's the number of games he won his entire time at Vanderbilt.

If he could wear zero as in the number of bowl games he appeared in, maybe he should try that too.

Are the geniuses who keep calling for him to start after Jake threw three picks against the Rams aware that Cutler threw two interceptions against Middle Tennessee State?

Jake played in the Pro Bowl last season and Cutler threw a pick in the Senior Bowl. I'm completely sold on good ol' number six!

I'm aware the kid can bench press a whole lot and is a practice all star, but over the last three years only two QBs have a higher winning percentage than Jake does.

So many of you on this board are making Denver fans look absolutely clueless and idiotic, cut it out please.

First of all, very few here have called for Cutler to start now unless by default if Jake goes bonehead another few times here in the next few weeks, but your so-called 'assessment' of Cutler's talent leading a girl scout team against one of the toughest divisions in college football would be laughable if it wasnt so ludicrous.

Ever actually watch the Tennessee, Florida, Ole Miss, Kentucky or Arkansas games to name a few last year? Or do you just scan the stats pages trying to add up a few INTs to paint your picture?

Even the two of those games mentioned above that Vandy lost by a hair Cutler played superbly and transformed what would have been a certain blow out into a three alarm heart attack for the opposing teams.

Or lets see, 560 yrds passing, 65% completion 4-TDs and 1-INT running the second team Bronco offense in only 5 quarters of his first NFL action in preseason, and three of those quarters against the other teams 1st team defense, certainly indicates a likely bust here!

If fact, based on your brilliant deduction that since Cutler had an INT in the Senior bowl (inspite of making such a great impression on all the scouts with his good game that he rocketed up the draft charts) hes just a work out wonder.

You know in light of this revelation, I think we should just trade him now before the brilliant deduction by this 'Einstein of Football' gets discovered by other team's and we lose the leverage of this carefully crafted mirage Cutler has spun over the league!

Yeah thats the ticket Bevus ... where is Butthead when we need him?

[Hulamau]

How's that an issue? It's pretty much given that any decent coach needs good players to win championships. Why should the QB position be any different.

How many championships did Cowher win without Roethlisberger? Bellichick without Brady, Jim Johnson without Aikman and so on.

If you're going to make a point at least try to make it worthwhile because the football knowledge around here is pretty high. Otherwise you should just crawl back to your website and pat yourself on the back on how many hits your site is temporarily getting.

Amen to that Fontaine, and we all agree that Jake is a good quarterback and has a lot of rare ability thats gotten him this far. With a fair dose of luck it might be enough to take this team all the way as well, but he also has that increasingly critical fundamental limitation that it seems the better teams keyed on in the playoffs ( even KC did in the second game last year in Arrowhead to a degree) trying to make Jake beat them from the pocket and with the pass, and its simply not his strength.

I still think even with this blueprint that Pittsburg and now St Louis have confirmed to the league about how to contain JAke and force him to morph from 'No Mistake' back to 'Mistake Jake' can be overcome with some clever counter moves by Shanny and Dinger , at least against the average defenses.

However, its the NE's, Ravens Indy's, Steelers, Cincys and now Chargers (two times) of our schedule that I really worry about. If as is highly likely they learn this lesson too, its going to be very hard for Jake to stay in his comfort zone.

I have no doubt this week Jake will come out and have one of his better games here similar to the last two KC games at Invesco, but its going to be very interesting to see how we respond to the better defenses that follow this new battle plan for beating the Broncos by forcing JAke to become a downfield passer. Hopefully, the coaches can come up with some moves to make those teams pay ...for sitting on the lanes and keeping a spy on the bootsif Jake is able to pull them off with some consistency.

The next 3 games is going to be crucial.

[Popps]

I hear that... But apparently some folks would like to believe that I grew up watching the Broncos waiting for a certain Michigan quarterback to come in, fail, and then have my entire life of takes from then on revolve around that situation..

Well...

[Tredici]

I bet you got high marks in Psych 101. Can we tone down the self-righteousness for just a minute? Let's enter the realm of reality, shall we?

I had no idea that this forum existed until I saw people were coming to my site through links posted here. I saw the domain in the referral logs and went here. I posted in a thread (found through referral logs) about my site where I was being personally attacked a while back. I check the list of topics sporadically for kicks. When I saw the Cutler topics I decided to post.

My arguments are mine and mine alone, there is a user here named "TDforTD" who posted in this thread who posted with me on another message board system and will vouch for the fact that I have been making observations of this kind for years.

Perspective what? I am putting things into perspective, you people are the ones still blinded by Super Bowl parades that you cannot bring yourself to realize that the emperor is stark naked. It's like listening to conservatives go on about how Iraq was involved in 9/11. Regardless of the facts of the situation, some people have just convinced themselves that things are a certain way.

Please, feel free to scrutinize the list of coaches I named. Explain to me why any of those cities would take Shanahan over the coaches they currently have. We're talking guys like Gibbs, Parcells, Belichick, Reid, Coughlin, Cowher, Dungy, Gruden, Holmgren and the like. Sorry, those guys have pretty secure jobs.

Whenever you want to stop hiding up in your tree of false intellectual superiority and ridiculous assumptions about me feel free to do so. I'll be waiting when you actually have time to make counterpoints to what I've said instead of making hilarious and baseless personal attacks.

I've never taken a psych class. Guys like you aren't that difficult to figure out. I replied to your ridiculous coach list in post number 200. It's helpful to read the entire thread before jumping bad, but hey, your style.

Your takes aren't yours and yours alone. They are commonly known and discussed criticisms. They are found in this type of venue and in various sport discussions.

The funniest thing about your post is lecturing anyone on perspective. You have zero credibility in that area buddy.

By the way my intellect isn't false. And my assessment of you is accurate based on what you have offered.

[Tredici]

Oh wait a minute. I don't mean to imply that none of your takes are yours alone. Of course the coaches list was. Not much thought was given to that one.

And I will also credit you with the silly take on Ashley Lelie. You are seriously saying the guy demanded a trade because his feelers were hurt over personnel moves?

Maybe the world is looking at things like contract disputes wrong. There must be something severely wrong with Belichick and the New England fans. How to explain both Richard Seymour and Deion Branch?

Lots of coach and fan problems with Terrell Owens.

I wonder how Javon Walker became available to Denver? Oh yeah, that's right. The Green Bay Coaches and fans offended him. -- Heck, let's throw the QB in on that one too.

Now I might give you the coach/fan arguement on Jerry Porter.

Of course I realize your superior perspective is the ability to tie everything negatively to Shanahan. The rest of us dummies haven't gotten that smart yet in our ability to keep things in perspective.

[BroncoBuff]

No...Brian actually gutted out a win against the Raiders with a separated shoulder.

... chrome-wheeled fuel-injected and steppin out over the line!

Why not "Livin' the Life" anynore, friend?





cause baby, i'm just a scared and lonely rider ...

[BroncoBuff]

I'll tell you all one thing. Picture in your mind Jake's pass to Devoe. He rolls out right, looks short, then sees Devoe getting open deep. He throws the pass...

Now replay that exact setup with Jay as the QB. Do the passes look any different? The trajectories? The speed?

No doubt .... good comparison. Had Jay started, I think we would have won. Let's just hope it was another standard Jake "opening day" suckfest, and maybe we can reel off 13 of 15 again.