"I wasn't on point, I didn't feel a sense of urgency" - Bush on Bush on 9/11

[freak6]

August 6th PDB states one month prior to 9/11 that -

Al Qaeda is in the country, and making preparations consistent with hijacking planes, in addition to casing out federal buildings in NEW YORK.

Bush does nothing. Condi lied to the 9/11 commission saying "There was no actionable evidence. They truth is that <b> they TOOK no action</b> when they should have, obviously. Then she later admitted under oath they warned the FAA.

Well then there was actionable evidence, they did take action, they warned the FAA...great job NSA Condi Rice. For her great work and lies, she got promoted to Sec. of State, where she doesn't even bother to read NIEs on Iraq. She perjured herself before the 9/11 commision within 3 minutes of the real questions that came from Kerrey.

Bush refused to publicly testify, because he would have been immediately impeached had he.

But he did admit this gem.

"I wasn't on point, I didn't feel a sense of urgency, there are some things I wish we'd have done".

As a Sgt. in the Marines, if I am on barracks duty, and I am warned that Al Qaeda is about to drive a truck full of explosives into the barracks, and I do what Bush did, warn the California Dept. of Transportation, and nothing else, I have failed in my duties, and after the attack, if I survived as Bush did, I would be thrown in jail for dereliction of duty. I would never see the light of day again if I allowed that attack to go through without doing anything. Bush stayed on vacation, and admitted that he DID not even read the entire PDB, because as he has said, "I don't have time to read every piece of paper I get", and he needs charts, picture books, etc...

Those are the facts. Draw your own conclusions.

The #1 job of our Commander in Chief is to defend our country. I took an oath to do the same. One of us failed.

[Mile High Shack]

dude seriously

come up with something new
it's like hearing a barking dog over and over and over and over again, barking at the same pitch and tone all night long

eventually you just ignore it

[W*GS]

Actually, a better analogy to your "drive a truck loaded with explosives into the barracks" would be "Some guy may drive a truck he stole somewhere maybe for the purpose of doing something bad", which is much less actionable.

Have you read the 6 August 2001 PDB? What could Bush do, specifically, immediately, effectively, and practically in light of the information contained within it?

[freak6]

What response could you possibly have besides,

"You're right, he was warned, and did nothing, therefore he failed in the most important duty as Commander in Chief".

Bush admitted that he "was not on point, and didn't have a sense of urgency"

DO YOU REALIZE WHAT THE FK THAT MEANS!!!! REREAD IT.

You should be outraged as I am. That is fkn BS.

"I didn't feel a sense of urgency"

HELLO IT SAYS AL QAEDA IS ABOUT TO HIJACK OUR PLANES, and he "doesn't feel a sense of urgency"

The Commander in Chief ALWAYS has to be on point, you always have to have a sense of urgency when your decisions are life and death.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE for him. He is pathetic. "I didn't feel a sense of urgency"

If you say that after being explicity warned of an incoming attack, in combat, you'll be fragged yourself by your own men. Straight up.

[freak6]

Have you read the 6 August 2001 PDB? What could Bush do, specifically, immediately, effectively, and practically in light of the information contained within it?

The who - Al Qaeda and Muslims from the middle east

It says how they will attack us - hijackings

The when - is from the time you read it til the threat is over

It says where - New York

What could he have done? That laundry list is about 800 pages long, it's called the 9/11 commision.

Instead he invaded Iraq (stupid) and created about a million more terrorists. Alberto Gonzalez on Abu Ghraib opinions helped out too.

If I was President, and I got this PDB from the CIA, myself and my NSA would have increased security at Airports, stopped weapons from being taken on board, screened customers, air marshals, and most of all, warned the public.

[W*GS]

The who - Al Qaeda and Muslims from the middle east

Did Bush have at hand specific detailed information on who these individuals were and where they were? How many "Muslims from the middle east" are in the US at any given time? Does Bush have the FBI start interrogating each and every one?

It says how they will attack us - hijackings

Domestically or overseas? How many hijack-able planes are there in the US each day?

The when - is from the time you read it til the threat is over

When is the threat "over"?

It says where - New York

Not really. There are three mentions of New York in the memo:

Bin Laden implied in U.S. television interviews in 1997 and 1998 that his followers would follow the example of World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef and "bring the fighting to America."

and

A clandestine source said in 1998 that a bin Laden cell in New York was recruiting Muslim-American youth for attacks.

and

Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.

Only the last connects an attack and New York, but it's not very specific, and in fact, no federal buildings in NYC were attacked on 9/11.

What could he have done? That laundry list is about 800 pages long, it's called the 9/11 commision.

Remember, I said "immediately" and "practically". How can Bush implement the changes suggested in the 9/11 Commission Report (which isn't 800 pages of recommendations) between 6 Aug and 11 Sep?

Instead he invaded Iraq (stupid) and created about a million more terrorists. Alberto Gonzalez on Abu Ghraib opinions helped out too.

I'll grant those two, certainly.

If I was President, and I got this PDB from the CIA, myself and my NSA would have increased security at Airports,

The NSA doesn't do airport security. What specific actions should Bush have demanded in terms of it?

stopped weapons from being taken on board,

None of the 9/11 hijackers used prohibited (at that time) items to gain control of the planes. Do you know otherwise?

screened customers,

The CAPPS program was in place, and even those hijackers who were selected by it passed with no problems.

air marshals,

What air marshals? Did that program exist pre-9/11, with sufficient manpower?

and most of all, warned the public.

What should Bush have said? Sounds to me like a recipe for panic and chaos.

[W*GS]

If you say that after being explicity warned of an incoming attack, in combat, you'll be fragged yourself by your own men. Straight up.

Sorry, but the 6 Aug PDB doesn't say "The following 19 individuals [names] will be hijacking four commercial airline flights [list] at these times [list] on 11 Sep 2001 and crashing them into WTC1, WTC2, the Pentagon and the Capitol".

It's much more vague than that.

[Stuck In Texas]

We all felt helpless as this was going on. It's very natural to feel outrage, but let me address these one at a time.

The who - Al Qaeda and Muslims from the middle east
And what do you do with this information? Profiling? We can't even do that now AFTER we've been attacked.

It says how they will attack us - hijackings
From the PDB: "We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a [deleted text] service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Shaykh" 'Umar' Abd aI-Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists."

A. Intelligence couldn't even verify that it's true and
B. That intelligence is three years old.

The when - is from the time you read it til the threat is over
Here is a copy of the PDB: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0409041pdb1.html
Take a look at the dates being referenced. They are all from the mid- to late- 90s.

It says where - New York
Again, directly from the PDB, "Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York."

Ok, there are lots of federal buildings in New York and if you concentrated on them because of the PDB - the WTC would still have not been protected since they aren't federal buildings. The Pentagon would also not have been protected because it's not in NY. Also, keep in mind that none of the flights that were hijacked originated in NY.

What could he have done? That laundry list is about 800 pages long, it's called the 9/11 commision.

That's true, but the commission (and us) have the benefit of hindsight.

Instead he invaded Iraq (stupid) and created about a million more terrorists. Alberto Gonzalez on Abu Ghraib opinions helped out too.

No doubt this will be argued for years to come.

If I was President, and I got this PDB from the CIA, myself and my NSA would have increased security at Airports, stopped weapons from being taken on board, screened customers, air marshals, and most of all, warned the public.

Increasing security at the airports would have been a great idea, but how long do you keep the security measures so high? The public wouldn't understand, heck they don't understand even now. As for stopping weapons, I'm a little confused by that. The "weapons" that were used were box cutters - which were perfectly legal on airplanes at the time. As for air marshalls - did we even have air marshalls at the time? We might have, but I'm not sure. I don't remember hearing about them.

Here is another site that explains some of the thought process behind the PDB. I can't vouch for its agenda. I just happened to come across it while getting the link to the actual document. It might shed some light on the subject.

http://www.agonist.org/annex/pdb.htm

[Play2win]

Moral of the story- Put the MF'ers UNDER OATH...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Condi lied to the 9/11 commission saying "There was no actionable evidence.

A most egregious lie, to be sure.

The evidence that the bush junta knew al Qaeda wanted to crash aircraft into the WTC, the WH, the Pentagon, and CIA headquarters is irrefutable.

After the attacks, virtually every member of the Bush administration put forth the talking point that, "No one could have anticipated anyone using airplanes as bombs." The facts tell a different story.

In 1993, a $150,000 study was undertaken by the Pentagon to investigate the possibility of airplanes being used as bombs. A draft document of this was circulated throughout the Pentagon, the Justice Department, and to the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In 1994, a disgruntled Federal Express employee invaded the cockpit of a DC10 with the intention of crashing it into a company building. Again in 1994, a pilot crashed a small airplane into a tree on the White House grounds, narrowly missing the building itself. Also in 1994, an Air France flight was hijacked by members of a terrorist organization called the Armed Islamic Group, who intended to crash the plane into the Eiffel Tower.

The 1993 Pentagon report was followed up in September 1999 by a report titled "The Sociology and Psychology of Terrorism." This report was prepared for the American intelligence community by the Federal Research Division, an adjunct of the Library of Congress. The report stated, "Suicide bombers belonging to Al Qaida's martyrdom battalion could crash-land an aircraft packed with high explosives into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the CIA, or the White House."

Ramzi Yousef was one of the planners and participants in the first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. Yousef's right-hand man, Abdul Hakim Murad, was captured and interrogated in 1995. During that interrogation, Murad described a detailed plot to hijack airplanes and use them as weapons of terrorism. The primary plan was to commandeer eleven commercial planes and blow them up over the Pacific Ocean. The secondary plan was to hijack several planes, which would be flown into CIA headquarters, the World Trade Center, the Sears Tower, the White House and a variety of other targets.

Ramzi Yousef eluded capture until his final apprehension in Pakistan. During his 1997 trial, the plot described by Murad resurfaced. FBI agents testified in the Yousef trial that, "The plan targeted not only the CIA, but other U.S. government buildings in Washington, including the Pentagon."

Abdul Hakim Murad described plans to use hijacked commercial airplanes as weapons in 1995. Ramzi Yousef's trial further exposed the existence of these plans in 1997. Two reports prepared by the American government, one from 1993 and another from 1999, further detailed again the existence and danger of these plots. The Federal Express employee's hijacking attempt in 1994, the attempted airplane attack on the White House in 1994, and the hijacking of the Air France flight in 1994 by terrorists intending to fly the plane into the Eiffel Tower provided a glaring underscore to the data.

This data served to underscore the efforts made by the Clinton administration to combat international terrorism and attacks against the United States. Unfortunately, the data and the work that inspired it was not followed up on.

A mission statement from the internal FBI Strategic Plan, dated 5/8/98, describes the FBI's Tier One priority as 'counterterrorism.' The FBI, under the Clinton administration, was making counterterrorism its highest priority. The official annual budget goals memo from Attorney General Janet Reno to department heads, dated 4/6/2000, detailed how counterterrorism was her top priority for the Department of Justice. In the second paragraph, she states, "In the near term as well as the future, cybercrime and counterterrorism are going to be the most challenging threats in the criminal justice area. Nowhere is the need for an up-to-date human and technical infrastructure more critical."

Contrast this with the official annual budget goals memo from Attorney General John Ashcroft, dated 5/10/2001. Out of seven strategic goals described, not one mentions counterterrorism. An internal draft of the Department of Justice's plans to revamp the official DoJ Strategic Plan, dated 8/9/2001, describes Ashcroft's new priorities. The areas Ashcroft wished to focus on were highlighted in yellow. Specifically highlighted by Ashcroft were domestic violent crime and drug trafficking prevention. Item 1.3, entitled "Combat terrorist activities by developing maximum intelligence and investigative capability," was not highlighted.

There is the internal FBI budget request for 2003 to the Department of Justice, dated late August 2001. This was not the FBI's total budget request, but was instead restricted only to the areas where the FBI specifically requested increases over the previous year's budget. In this request, the FBI specifically asked for, among other things, 54 translators to transcribe the backlog of intelligence gathered, 248 counterterrorism agents and support staff, and 200 professional intelligence researchers. The FBI had repeatedly stated that it had a serious backlog of intelligence data it has gathered, but could not process the data because it did not have the staff to analyze or translate it into usable information. Again, this was August 2001.

The official Department of Justice budget request from Attorney General Ashcroft to OMB Director Mitch Daniels is dated September 10, 2001. This document specifically highlights only the programs slated for above-baseline increases or below-baseline cuts. Ashcroft outlined the programs he was trying to cut. Specifically, Ashcroft was planning to ignore the FBI's specific requests for more translators, counterintelligence agents and researchers. It additionally shows Ashcroft was trying to cut funding for counterterrorism efforts, grants and other homeland defense programs before the 9/11 attacks.

Along with these new priorities, which demoted terrorism significantly, there were the warnings delivered to the Bush administration about potential attacks against the United States. Newspapers in Germany, France, Russia and London reported in the months before September 11th a blizzard of warnings delivered to the Bush administration from a number of allies.

The German intelligence service, BND, warned American and Israeli agencies that terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft and use them as weapons to attack important American targets. Egypt warned of a similar plot to use airplanes to attack Bush during the G-8 summit in Genoa in June of 2001. This warning was taken so seriously that anti-aircraft missiles were deployed around Columbus Airport in Italy.

In August of 2001, Russian intelligence services notified the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots had been trained for suicide missions, and Putin himself confirmed that this warning was delivered "in the strongest possible terms," specifically regarding threats to airports and government buildings.

In that same month, the Israeli security agency Mossad issued a warning to both the FBI and the CIA that up to 200 bin Laden followers were planning a major assault on America, aimed at vulnerable targets. The Los Angeles Times later confirmed via unnamed US officials that the Mossad warnings had been received.

On August 6, 2001, George W. Bush received his Presidential Daily Briefing. The briefing described active plots to attack the United States by Osama bin Laden. The word "hijacking" appeared in that briefing. Bush reacted to this warning by continuing with his month-long vacation in Texas.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/083006J.shtml

[ClevelandBronco]

Here I am enjoying Freak's rageface and the rest of you have to get all serious.

I could have sworn this subject has come up before. Y'all still trying to persuade each other?

[Stuck In Texas]

Here I am enjoying Freak's rageface and the rest of you have to get all serious.

I could have sworn this subject has come up before. Y'all still trying to persuade each other?

Not me. I'm done. "Bush lied, people died" is so catchy and easy to say that there's no point in actually trying to look at what happened with an open mind. With that, I'm out of the discussion. Nobody will change anybody else's mind. It all just leads to conflict. :deadhorse

See you in the football forums! (those of you that actually go in there).

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

...there's no point in actually trying to look at what happened with an open mind.

Oh, the irony. :D

Bottom line:

Rice, et al, lied when they said "we could have never imagined anyone would use aircraft as missiles."

The proof that they lied is irrefutable (see post #10.)

All the bush apologists can do in response to said proof is (you guessed it) attack the messenger.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

OBL on the move again?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HI14Df03.html

"Exclusive information obtained by Asia Times Online shows that the al-Qaeda leader recently traveled from the South Waziristan tribal area in Pakistan to somewhere in the eastern Afghan provinces of Kunar and Nooristan, or possibly Bajour, a s mall tribal agency in the Federally Administered Tribal Area of Pakistan in North-West Frontier Province. "

[Rohirrim]

I see years of profitable work and many a PHD thesis ahead for the Bush apologists.

[TailgateNut]

Incompetent Administration And Their Horde Of Apologists! Liars And Those Who Support Them Are All Criminals In My Mind. Using A Gop Talking Point- "unpatriotic And Un-american".

How Do You Like It?

[W*GS]

All the bush apologists can do in response to said proof is (you guessed it) attack the messenger.

You're a Bush apologist as well as a Clinton apologist, as you attack messengers all the time.

[freak6]

WAGS, when I say the NSA, I mean the National Security Advisor, not the spies. The NSA should have stepped up and taken this threat seriously. Unfortunately the NSA was an incompetent oil executive, with no experiance outside of Russian foriegn policy.

Now, for those dismissing the AUGUST 6th PDB.

The title of the document is - Bin Laden determined to attack U.S.

It details the history, which is all old intel. Then it starts the paragraph with the <b>current </b>warning with the word:

<font size=20> Nevertheless, </font size=10> FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.

"Nevertheless" is used to WAKE UP the reader, that hello, THIS IS THE PART THAT MATTERS.

Al Qaeda is in the country, and is preparting to hijack planes Mr. President, and Ms. NSA.

He did nothing. Do you think profiling does not go on now? Or did then. Wake up.

Condi lied under oath, she perjured herself inside of 3 minutes. Where is the outrage.

You people make me sick, you wrap yourself in the flag I defend, and cheer on these incompetent fools that did nothing to stop the attack despite being warned of incoming hijackings.

Even more reason for Bush to take this specific warning to heart, and do something, it was during the peak of the greatest amount of terrorist chatter our intel society has ever witnessed. They knew something was coming, they were "running around with thier hair on fire".

What was thier attitude during this time of worry and fret, and the imminent attack was nearing.

"I wasn't on point, I didn't feel a sense of urgency"

Real fkn great you stupid fk, 3000 dead Americans, the PENTAGON got rocked, innocents splattered over a field in Penn, and your fkn excuse is

"I wasn't on point, I didn't feel a sense of urgency"

How do you not "feel a sense of urgency" during the greatest amount of terrorist activity in our nations history, the CIA and FBI are flipping out every day, and you are warned of incoming hijackings, yet he fkn doesn't have a "sense of urgency, and wasn't on point"

And some of you morons actually voted him back into office, and wonder why this war is so fkd up. WAKE THE FK UP AMERICANS!!!!

He even admitted that he didn't even read the last paragraph, that is why he and Condi said it was a historical document, and that is why you morons repeat that excuse.

It was not a historical document.

That is why it said <b>NEVER THE LESS </b> and then describes that Al Qaeda is in the country, is preparing to hijcack our planes.

And he and btch NSA CondiLIESa Rice say noone could have envisioned these attacks, when that very day they were war gaming for such an attack, when reports have been written about using planes as missiles.

The Divided States of Embarrassment.

If you disagree with me all I can do is blame republicans for cutting funding for education, because your reading comprehension SUCKS!!!! As does my spelling, but I type to fast to spell check. OUT

Nevertheless...

[ClevelandBronco]

<font size=20> Nevertheless, </font size=10>

Think of the lives that could have been saved if only they had typed it really big.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Think of the lives that could have been saved if only they had typed it really big.
Or, if the liar in charge wouldn't have invaded and occupied a country that wasn't even remotely a threat to us.

[TailgateNut]

Think of the difference it would make if the voting public could be held accountable for the mistakes of those who are placed in office due to their support. Maybe then they would think twice about which candidates they place in a position of TRUST!

[ClevelandBronco]

Think of the difference it would make if the voting public could be held accountable for the mistakes of those who are placed in office due to their support. Maybe then they would think twice about which candidates they place in a position of TRUST!

Bush voters get a stint in Abu Ghraib.

Clinton voters get a knob job.

Sounds fair on its face.

[TailgateNut]

Bush voters get a stint in Abu Ghraib.

Clinton voters get a knob job.

Sounds fair on its face.


I'll take my punishment!;D

[W*GS]

I've already detailed why the 6 Aug PDB doesn't contain enough actionable information.

Writing real big and in bold doesn't make your argument better.

[TailgateNut]

I've already detailed why the 6 Aug PDB doesn't contain enough actionable information.

Writing real big and in bold doesn't make your argument better.


NOTHING could have been done by Bush and Co. according to you and the 9-11 commision. Who would have thunk it. Someone would have had to tell him the flt# and the terrorists addresses for him to get the message.
HE'S A MISFIT!

[alkemical]

the reason why nothing was done:

congress was too busy partying with jack abramoff. Bush just got into office more or less - and his admin was too busy getting energy companies to write the energy policy, banking industry leaders to write the new bankruptcy laws.......

[W*GS]

NOTHING could have been done by Bush and Co. according to you and the 9-11 commision. Who would have thunk it. Someone would have had to tell him the flt# and the terrorists addresses for him to get the message.

What should Bush have done, specifically, immediately, effectively, and practically?

[TailgateNut]

What should Bush have done, specifically, immediately, effectively, and practically?


How about FOCUSING ON THE THREAT and LISTENING TO INFORMATION! That would have been a good start, but as weall know he doesn't listen to ****, unless there is money envolved for him and his contributors!

[W*GS]

How about FOCUSING ON THE THREAT and LISTENING TO INFORMATION! That would have been a good start, but as weall know he doesn't listen to ****, unless there is money envolved for him and his contributors!

OK, so he listens.

Then what?

[freak6]

I've already detailed why the 6 Aug PDB doesn't contain enough actionable information.


No you didn't. It was actionable.

If you are warned that Al Qaeda is in the country and preparing to hijack planes, that is actionable. That is why they took action, and as Condi said, they warned the FAA.

Doh, guess you're wrong.

To bad that was far less than was required. To bad as he admitted, "I wasn't on point, I didn't feel a sense of urgency"

That is why that quote means to so much.

It displays his laissez faire attitude toward the position that he holds, which is way over his intellect.

His history as a human was a stark warning that this fool of a man would fk up as Commander in Chief, and that this position was way to important for someone with is history as a business man, and Gov.

He admitted that he didn't even read the entire PDB, and most importantly the last paragraph, which was the only one that really mattered.

"The intelligence is being fixed around the policy"

WORST PRESIDENCY IN HISTORY!!!!!!!!!

But what do you people care.

FloridaBronco fans Father died over there, as have many husbands, sons, wives, sisters, and brothers and other fathers and mothers.

My friends are coming back missing body parts, brain parts, and suffering from the trauma of picking up children's body parts in the streets.

Bush says he won't support stem cell technology because "that is making the decision that taxpayers will pay for killing human beings"....

WAKE THE FK UP AMERICANS!!!!!

[TailgateNut]

OK, so he listens.

Then what?


Then maybe start some "racial profiling" at the f-ing airportm, and search bags and bodies for anything that could be used to assist in hijacking aircraft.

You are such a predictable Bush apologist, I can't believe your were not out campaigning for the Chimp!

[freak6]

Tailgate Nut, the 9/11 commission members said the attacks could have been prevented.

[TailgateNut]

How about setting up a policy which immediately notifies the military in the event of any and all aircraft issues (hijacking, planes off course, transponder malfunctions, etc.....)
There are so many things which could have been done, but he saw this as a sure fire way to get the war he wanted!

[TailgateNut]

Tailgate Nut, the 9/11 commission members said the attacks could have been prevented.

Of course they could have, but our leadership would have had to react to the information.
If you ever look into Bush's eyes when he makes his speaches you can see the lies! The man makes me SICK!

[W*GS]

Thinking of the 9/11 commission & United 93... How in the world did people use cell phones 29,000 feet in the air? Especially in year 2001.

http://911myths.com/html/mobiles_at_altitude.html

[W*GS]

No you didn't. It was actionable.

But not to the extent of preventing 9/11:

If you are warned that Al Qaeda is in the country and preparing to hijack planes, that is actionable. That is why they took action, and as Condi said, they warned the FAA.

And then what? The CAPPS program was operating and in place. What else was actionable?

[W*GS]

Then maybe start some "racial profiling" at the f-ing airportm, and search bags and bodies for anything that could be used to assist in hijacking aircraft.

You are aware of the then-existing CAPPS program, aren't you?

You are such a predictable Bush apologist, I can't believe your were not out campaigning for the Chimp!

I never voted for the guy, and he can't be President again, so why would I campaign for him?

[freak6]

The fact that Al Qaeda is in our country, and about to kill Americans, you do whatever it takes as Commander in Chief to stop them.

That is why they have the oath of office, that is why I took my oath to defend this country.

Except I take mine seriously.

Some people "don't have a sense of urgency, and aren't on point". Ironic considering our levels of power, don't you think?

[alkemical]

yeah but 911 myths keeps calling flight 93 a crash - a crash does not leave about 6 sq mi of wreckage in the manner flight 93 did.

[TailgateNut]

You are aware of the then-existing CAPPS program, aren't you?

...and you're implying it could'nt have been modified considering the situation?


I never voted for the guy, and he can't be President again, so why would I campaign for him?

Righto! What-ever you say!

[W*GS]

Tailgate Nut, the 9/11 commission members said the attacks could have been prevented.

Of course they could have been prevented - assuming lots of things that were missed or were unknown before they took place.

Assembling intel into a coherent picture that gives sufficient information for something to be done in time is rather like putting together a jigsaw puzzle without the final picture to look at. Actually, it's more like putting together one jigsaw puzzle out of pieces that include other puzzles. There is a lot of irrelevant information that has to be filtered out, but the real trick is figuring out what's relevant and what isn't.

[W*GS]

The fact that Al Qaeda is in our country, and about to kill Americans, you do whatever it takes as Commander in Chief to stop them.

Let's assume they concentrate on hijackings (hoping that the part in the 6 Aug PDB memo about "other types of attacks" can be safely ignored).

How much disruption, of the sort we saw just after 9/11, is justifiable? Should every passenger on every airplane have been cavity searched? Based on what grounds? For how long?

Your plan is almost as good as your "most of all, warned the public" idea.

[W*GS]

How about setting up a policy which immediately notifies the military in the event of any and all aircraft issues (hijacking, planes off course, transponder malfunctions, etc.....)

There was already a plan in place to get the military involved. You are aware of that, right?

Should there have been 24x7 military overflights nationwide, multiple fighters per major airport?

[TailgateNut]

Of course they could have been prevented - assuming lots of things that were missed or were unknown before they took place.

Assembling intel into a coherent picture that gives sufficient information for something to be done in time is rather like putting together a jigsaw puzzle without the final picture to look at. Actually, it's more like putting together one jigsaw puzzle out of pieces that include other puzzles. There is a lot of irrelevant information that has to be filtered out, but the real trick is figuring out what's relevant and what isn't.

Don't you EVER get tired of apologizing for him. He has broken so many laws since 9-11 using the terrorism excuse, so why couldn't or wouldn't he do that when he had a chance to save countless lives. Because he wanted the excuse for war.

[W*GS]

yeah but 911 myths keeps calling flight 93 a crash - a crash does not leave about 6 sq mi of wreckage in the manner flight 93 did.

Did it leave "6 sq mi" of wreckage?

[TailgateNut]

There was already a plan in place to get the military involved. You are aware of that, right?

Should there have been 24x7 military overflights nationwide, multiple fighters per major airport?



A plan which defined what? Hell, the damn fighters had no clue what to do because our administration had that deer in the headlight look on their collective faces!

You are exhausting my patience as much as GWB!

[alkemical]

Did it leave "6 sq mi" of wreckage?



What did 911myths.com miss something?

[W*GS]

Don't you EVER get tired of apologizing for him.

I never get tired of the facts. Why do you?

[W*GS]

A plan which defined what?

The protocols for when the civilian air traffic control system was allowed to get assistance from the miltary.

That aside, any comment on my suggestion? 24x7 overflights?

Hell, the damn fighters had no clue what to do because our administration had that deer in the headlight look on their collective faces!

Bush is supposed to tell the fighters where to go? Hunh?

You are exhausting my patience as much as GWB!

Indeed - you're in a dither and are woefully ignorant of the facts.

[W*GS]

What did 911myths.com miss something?

911myths.com doesn't have specific information about the debris field claim of yours, as far as I can tell, but Popular Mechanics does:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=8&c=y

[alkemical]

911myths.com doesn't have specific information about the debris field claim of yours, as far as I can tell, but Popular Mechanics does:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=8&c=y



http://www.flight93crash.com/

refutes your sources with other news sources and eye witnesses.


And guess what - it's just as valid as 911myths...

[W*GS]

http://www.flight93crash.com/

refutes your sources with other news sources and eye witnesses.

Debatable.

And guess what - it's just as valid as 911myths...

Given two sets of beliefs that differ strongly from each other, both cannot be "valid".

[alkemical]

Debatable.



Given two sets of beliefs that differ strongly from each other, both cannot be "valid".



Why not wags? What's more "valid" - christianity or hindu?

[W*GS]

Why not wags? What's more "valid" - christianity or hindu?

I didn't say that one has to be valid. Both can be invalid, as Christianity and Hinduism are.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Don't you EVER get tired of apologizing for him.

W*GS? Tired of apologizing for GeeDubya?

Ha ha ha! :laugh:

That would be like Michael Jackson getting tired of hanging around Chuck E. Cheese's.

Here's the bottom line BushCo brownie hounds like W*GS can't escape:

Had Dim Son done all he could do (or even done something - anything) and still failed to prevent the attacks, then perhaps he could be forgiven.

However, Bush did absolutely nothing in response to the plethora of warnings from both domestic and foreign intelligence sources in advance of the attacks. To compound matters, Rice lied through her teeth when she made her infamous statement "we could never have imagined that anyone would use aircraft as missles." (Nothing could be further from the truth.)

[freak6]

And she blatantly PERJURED herself before the 911 commission. And got promoted for it.

That's great Wags, Or Gary, whoever you are.

You make excuses for a President who admitted during the time OUR country was under the greatest threat in it's history of a terrorist attack, that he "wasn't on point, and didn't feel a sense of urgency".

For that you are a complete moron, a coward like Bush, and totally unpatriotic.

A true Patriot that loves his country would be outraged at the President's own admission that "I wasn't on point, and I didn't feel a sense of urgency" while our country is under the greatest threat of terrorism it has ever known.

And then did nothing to prevent it after being warned of upcoming HIJACKINGS.

Anyone apologizing or making excuses for this buffoon should be labotomized and used as test subjects for stem cell research.

Oh wait, Bush won't "use taxpayers money to end human lives"...

GAME. SET. MATCH.

[alkemical]

I didn't say that one has to be valid.


Given two sets of beliefs that differ strongly from each other, both cannot be "valid". - Wags





then if neither are vaild, and neither are false - then we come back to my original point wags. YOU pick your reality, and what you BELIEVE is "right", is then how the world works and appears for you.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Iraq death toll higher than 9-11

While Bush spent the day exploiting the memory of those we lost five years ago, the nation overlooked a grim milestone: More Americans have now died in Iraq than died on 9/11. Iraq didn't attack us on 9-11, and our misguided policy there has now taken more American lives than Al Qaeda.

Here are the numbers: 3,015 Americans have died in Iraq as of September 9. 2,666 of these were military deaths and 349 were civilians.

The Republicans are fond of playing cheap number games with Iraqi casualty figures, and one of the ways they do it is by listing the deaths of military personnel only. They're hoping that a lazy press and an indifferent public will overlook the civilian losses, and to a large extent they've been right so far.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/dark-milestone-more-ame_b_29234.html

http://www.bartcop.com/911_vacation.jpg

[mhgaffney]

dude seriously

come up with something new
it's like hearing a barking dog over and over and over and over again, barking at the same pitch and tone all night long

eventually you just ignore it

Ignore it????

Our "leader" continues to escape accountability for his criminal malfeasance and/or complicity in 911 and with every passing day he takes us deeper into the abyss.

We can't wait until 2008. By then Bush will have destroyed the country -- who knows? -- maybe the world...

[TailgateNut]

The protocols for when the civilian air traffic control system was allowed to get assistance from the miltary.

***I know what it defines. It should have been revised to prepare for the inevitable.



That aside, any comment on my suggestion? 24x7 overflights?

***Not a bad idea, at least it's a preventive measure. Tell me, how much are we spending in Iraq, now that your president has started this BS war.


Bush is supposed to tell the fighters where to go? Hunh?

***Let's see, maybe concentrated their efforts over the skies of New York and the Capitol. Just a dumb tought.




Indeed - you're in a dither and are woefully ignorant of the facts.

*** If anyone is woefully ignorant, it's those who make excuses for the total failure of the current administration!

[W*GS]

Did Bush screw up before 9/11? Most certainly he did - and so did the CIA, the FBI, Congress, the FAA, the NSA, the INS, and a whole host of other government agencies and bureaucrats.

However, to expect that the President has the power to correct massive chunks of the federal bureaucracy in a timely, effective and practical manner ascribes to him power he simply does not have.

The government as a whole failed us on 9/11. Those who expect anything else from the government are the ones who need lobotomies, freak15.

[W*GS]

We can't wait until 2008. By then Bush will have destroyed the country -- who knows? -- maybe the world...

But the Jews will be OK because they know The End is coming, right?

[W*GS]

Not a bad idea, at least it's a preventive measure.

How many planes would it take to overfly big chunks of the nation on a 24x7 basis, and for how long would they do it?

Let's see, maybe concentrated their efforts over the skies of New York and the Capitol. Just a dumb tought.

Why? The 6 Aug PDB memo doesn't mention DC at all, and if the attack isn't a hijacking, jet fighters aren't going to do much good against it.

Every suggestion you've made on how Bush should have handled the pre-9/11 period in terms of security are faulty. Clearly, you haven't thought very clearly.

[alkemical]

Did Bush screw up before 9/11? Most certainly he did - and so did the CIA, the FBI, Congress, the FAA, the NSA, the INS, and a whole host of other government agencies and bureaucrats.

However, to expect that the President has the power to correct massive chunks of the federal bureaucracy in a timely, effective and practical manner ascribes to him power he simply does not have.

The government as a whole failed us on 9/11. Those who expect anything else from the government are the ones who need lobotomies, freak15.

which is why we need to have massive reforms at all levels of gov't.

I'm not above tar & feathering.

[alkemical]

But the Jews will be OK because they know The End is coming, right?

well they are god's chosen people.

[TailgateNut]

How many planes would it take to overfly big chunks of the nation on a 24x7 basis, and for how long would they do it?







Why? The 6 Aug PDB memo doesn't mention DC at all, and if the attack isn't a hijacking, jet fighters aren't going to do much good against it.

Every suggestion you've made on how Bush should have handled the pre-9/11 period in terms of security are faulty. Clearly, you haven't thought very clearly.



BS! I doesn't take a rocket scientist to establish no-fly zones, nor to figure out NY and DC would be prime targets.
Why am I wasting my time talking to you??? We all should realize you are "A Know-it-all"!

[W*GS]

BS! I doesn't take a rocket scientist to establish no-fly zones,

What do you mean? No planes allowed in or out from any airport?

nor to figure out NY and DC would be prime targets.

Why not LA? Seattle? Chicago? Miami? SF? Boston?

Why am I wasting my time talking to you??? We all should realize you are "A Know-it-all"!

You're just not thinking things through, that's all.

[TailgateNut]

What do you mean? No planes allowed in or out from any airport?



Why not LA? Seattle? Chicago? Miami? SF? Boston?



You're just not thinking things through, that's all.


Only you think things through, the rest of the world talks out of their collective a$$e$!
Congratulations, you have been placed on IGNORE (aka, solitary confinement).

[Rohirrim]

Lest we Forget
Clarke helped shape U.S. policy on terrorism under President Reagan and the first President Bush. He was held over by President Clinton to be his terrorism czar, then held over again by the current President Bush.

In the 60 Minutes interview and the book, Clarke tells what happened behind the scenes at the White House before, during and after Sept. 11.

When the terrorists struck, it was thought the White House would be the next target, so it was evacuated. Clarke was one of only a handful of people who stayed behind. He ran the government's response to the attacks from the Situation Room in the West Wing.

"I kept thinking of the words from 'Apocalypse Now,' the whispered words of Marlon Brando, when he thought about Vietnam. 'The horror. The horror.' Because we knew what was going on in New York. We knew about the bodies flying out of the windows. People falling through the air. We knew that Osama bin Laden had succeeded in bringing horror to the streets of America," he tells Stahl.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After the president returned to the White House on Sept. 11, he and his top advisers, including Clarke, began holding meetings about how to respond and retaliate. As Clarke writes in his book, he expected the administration to focus its military response on Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. He says he was surprised that the talk quickly turned to Iraq.

"Rumsfeld was saying that we needed to bomb Iraq," Clarke said to Stahl. "And we all said ... no, no. Al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan. We need to bomb Afghanistan. And Rumsfeld said there aren't any good targets in Afghanistan. And there are lots of good targets in Iraq. I said, 'Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with it.

"Initially, I thought when he said, 'There aren't enough targets in-- in Afghanistan,' I thought he was joking.

"I think they wanted to believe that there was a connection, but the CIA was sitting there, the FBI was sitting there, I was sitting there saying we've looked at this issue for years. For years we've looked and there's just no connection."

Clarke says he and CIA Director George Tenet told that to Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, and Attorney General John Ashcroft.

Clarke then tells Stahl of being pressured by Mr. Bush.

"The president dragged me into a room with a couple of other people, shut the door, and said, 'I want you to find whether Iraq did this.' Now he never said, 'Make it up.' But the entire conversation left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said Iraq did this.

"I said, 'Mr. President. We've done this before. We have been looking at this. We looked at it with an open mind. There's no connection.'

"He came back at me and said, "Iraq! Saddam! Find out if there's a connection.' And in a very intimidating way. I mean that we should come back with that answer. We wrote a report."

Clarke continued, "It was a serious look. We got together all the FBI experts, all the CIA experts. We wrote the report. We sent the report out to CIA and found FBI and said, 'Will you sign this report?' They all cleared the report. And we sent it up to the president and it got bounced by the National Security Advisor or Deputy. It got bounced and sent back saying, 'Wrong answer. ... Do it again.'

"I have no idea, to this day, if the president saw it, because after we did it again, it came to the same conclusion. And frankly, I don't think the people around the president show him memos like that. I don't think he sees memos that he doesn't-- wouldn't like the answer."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarke was the president's chief adviser on terrorism, yet it wasn't until Sept. 11 that he ever got to brief Mr. Bush on the subject. Clarke says that prior to Sept. 11, the administration didn't take the threat seriously.

"We had a terrorist organization that was going after us! Al Qaeda. That should have been the first item on the agenda. And it was pushed back and back and back for months.

"There's a lot of blame to go around, and I probably deserve some blame, too. But on January 24th, 2001, I wrote a memo to Condoleezza Rice asking for, urgently -- underlined urgently -- a Cabinet-level meeting to deal with the impending al Qaeda attack. And that urgent memo-- wasn't acted on.

"I blame the entire Bush leadership for continuing to work on Cold War issues when they back in power in 2001. It was as though they were preserved in amber from when they left office eight years earlier. They came back. They wanted to work on the same issues right away: Iraq, Star Wars. Not new issues, the new threats that had developed over the preceding eight years."

Clarke finally got his meeting about al Qaeda in April, three months after his urgent request. But it wasn't with the president or cabinet. It was with the second-in-command in each relevant department.

For the Pentagon, it was Paul Wolfowitz.

Clarke relates, "I began saying, 'We have to deal with bin Laden; we have to deal with al Qaeda.' Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary of Defense, said, 'No, no, no. We don't have to deal with al Qaeda. Why are we talking about that little guy? We have to talk about Iraqi terrorism against the United States.'

"And I said, 'Paul, there hasn't been any Iraqi terrorism against the United States in eight years!' And I turned to the deputy director of the CIA and said, 'Isn't that right?' And he said, 'Yeah, that's right. There is no Iraqi terrorism against the United States."

Clarke went on to add, "There's absolutely no evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda, ever."

When Stahl pointed out that some administration officials say it's still an open issue, Clarke responded, "Well, they'll say that until hell freezes over."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By June 2001, there still hadn't been a Cabinet-level meeting on terrorism, even though U.S. intelligence was picking up an unprecedented level of ominous chatter.

The CIA director warned the White House, Clarke points out. "George Tenet was saying to the White House, saying to the president - because he briefed him every morning - a major al Qaeda attack is going to happen against the United States somewhere in the world in the weeks and months ahead. He said that in June, July, August."

Clarke says the last time the CIA had picked up a similar level of chatter was in December, 1999, when Clarke was the terrorism czar in the Clinton White House.

Clarke says Mr. Clinton ordered his Cabinet to go to battle stations-- meaning, they went on high alert, holding meetings nearly every day.

That, Clarke says, helped thwart a major attack on Los Angeles International Airport, when an al Qaeda operative was stopped at the border with Canada, driving a car full of explosives.

Clarke harshly criticizes President Bush for not going to battle stations when the CIA warned him of a comparable threat in the months before Sept. 11: "He never thought it was important enough for him to hold a meeting on the subject, or for him to order his National Security Adviser to hold a Cabinet-level meeting on the subject."

Finally, says Clarke, "The cabinet meeting I asked for right after the inauguration took place-- one week prior to 9/11."

In that meeting, Clarke proposed a plan to bomb al Qaeda's sanctuary in Afghanistan, and to kill bin Laden.

[ORANGEJARHEAD]

Right on man!! From one Marine to another you are dead on. Gross deriliction of duty.

When I was sittin' in the sand during the first Gulf War, we all asked ourselves what we were fighting for. All we could come up with is that it's all for oil, and helping build a new wing on the Bush Mansion.

If you are Middle class, or poor (like me), and you vote Republican, there is something very wrong with you. Just ask a Katrina survivor.

Semper Fi, Freak 15, & Amen.

BRONCOS RULE!!!

[alkemical]

Lest we Forget
Clarke helped shape U.S. policy on terrorism under President Reagan and the first President Bush. He was held over by President Clinton to be his terrorism czar, then held over again by the current President Bush.

In the 60 Minutes interview and the book, Clarke tells what happened behind the scenes at the White House before, during and after Sept. 11.

When the terrorists struck, it was thought the White House would be the next target, so it was evacuated. Clarke was one of only a handful of people who stayed behind. He ran the government's response to the attacks from the Situation Room in the West Wing.

"I kept thinking of the words from 'Apocalypse Now,' the whispered words of Marlon Brando, when he thought about Vietnam. 'The horror. The horror.' Because we knew what was going on in New York. We knew about the bodies flying out of the windows. People falling through the air. We knew that Osama bin Laden had succeeded in bringing horror to the streets of America," he tells Stahl.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After the president returned to the White House on Sept. 11, he and his top advisers, including Clarke, began holding meetings about how to respond and retaliate. As Clarke writes in his book, he expected the administration to focus its military response on Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. He says he was surprised that the talk quickly turned to Iraq.

"Rumsfeld was saying that we needed to bomb Iraq," Clarke said to Stahl. "And we all said ... no, no. Al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan. We need to bomb Afghanistan. And Rumsfeld said there aren't any good targets in Afghanistan. And there are lots of good targets in Iraq. I said, 'Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with it.

"Initially, I thought when he said, 'There aren't enough targets in-- in Afghanistan,' I thought he was joking.

"I think they wanted to believe that there was a connection, but the CIA was sitting there, the FBI was sitting there, I was sitting there saying we've looked at this issue for years. For years we've looked and there's just no connection."

Clarke says he and CIA Director George Tenet told that to Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, and Attorney General John Ashcroft.

Clarke then tells Stahl of being pressured by Mr. Bush.

"The president dragged me into a room with a couple of other people, shut the door, and said, 'I want you to find whether Iraq did this.' Now he never said, 'Make it up.' But the entire conversation left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said Iraq did this.

"I said, 'Mr. President. We've done this before. We have been looking at this. We looked at it with an open mind. There's no connection.'

"He came back at me and said, "Iraq! Saddam! Find out if there's a connection.' And in a very intimidating way. I mean that we should come back with that answer. We wrote a report."

Clarke continued, "It was a serious look. We got together all the FBI experts, all the CIA experts. We wrote the report. We sent the report out to CIA and found FBI and said, 'Will you sign this report?' They all cleared the report. And we sent it up to the president and it got bounced by the National Security Advisor or Deputy. It got bounced and sent back saying, 'Wrong answer. ... Do it again.'

"I have no idea, to this day, if the president saw it, because after we did it again, it came to the same conclusion. And frankly, I don't think the people around the president show him memos like that. I don't think he sees memos that he doesn't-- wouldn't like the answer."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarke was the president's chief adviser on terrorism, yet it wasn't until Sept. 11 that he ever got to brief Mr. Bush on the subject. Clarke says that prior to Sept. 11, the administration didn't take the threat seriously.

"We had a terrorist organization that was going after us! Al Qaeda. That should have been the first item on the agenda. And it was pushed back and back and back for months.

"There's a lot of blame to go around, and I probably deserve some blame, too. But on January 24th, 2001, I wrote a memo to Condoleezza Rice asking for, urgently -- underlined urgently -- a Cabinet-level meeting to deal with the impending al Qaeda attack. And that urgent memo-- wasn't acted on.

"I blame the entire Bush leadership for continuing to work on Cold War issues when they back in power in 2001. It was as though they were preserved in amber from when they left office eight years earlier. They came back. They wanted to work on the same issues right away: Iraq, Star Wars. Not new issues, the new threats that had developed over the preceding eight years."

Clarke finally got his meeting about al Qaeda in April, three months after his urgent request. But it wasn't with the president or cabinet. It was with the second-in-command in each relevant department.

For the Pentagon, it was Paul Wolfowitz.

Clarke relates, "I began saying, 'We have to deal with bin Laden; we have to deal with al Qaeda.' Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary of Defense, said, 'No, no, no. We don't have to deal with al Qaeda. Why are we talking about that little guy? We have to talk about Iraqi terrorism against the United States.'

"And I said, 'Paul, there hasn't been any Iraqi terrorism against the United States in eight years!' And I turned to the deputy director of the CIA and said, 'Isn't that right?' And he said, 'Yeah, that's right. There is no Iraqi terrorism against the United States."

Clarke went on to add, "There's absolutely no evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda, ever."

When Stahl pointed out that some administration officials say it's still an open issue, Clarke responded, "Well, they'll say that until hell freezes over."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By June 2001, there still hadn't been a Cabinet-level meeting on terrorism, even though U.S. intelligence was picking up an unprecedented level of ominous chatter.

The CIA director warned the White House, Clarke points out. "George Tenet was saying to the White House, saying to the president - because he briefed him every morning - a major al Qaeda attack is going to happen against the United States somewhere in the world in the weeks and months ahead. He said that in June, July, August."

Clarke says the last time the CIA had picked up a similar level of chatter was in December, 1999, when Clarke was the terrorism czar in the Clinton White House.

Clarke says Mr. Clinton ordered his Cabinet to go to battle stations-- meaning, they went on high alert, holding meetings nearly every day.

That, Clarke says, helped thwart a major attack on Los Angeles International Airport, when an al Qaeda operative was stopped at the border with Canada, driving a car full of explosives.

Clarke harshly criticizes President Bush for not going to battle stations when the CIA warned him of a comparable threat in the months before Sept. 11: "He never thought it was important enough for him to hold a meeting on the subject, or for him to order his National Security Adviser to hold a Cabinet-level meeting on the subject."

Finally, says Clarke, "The cabinet meeting I asked for right after the inauguration took place-- one week prior to 9/11."

In that meeting, Clarke proposed a plan to bomb al Qaeda's sanctuary in Afghanistan, and to kill bin Laden.

for me, this "proves" the pnac document...

[TailgateNut]

for me, this "proves" the pnac document...


......but fot the rest of those who should be in Kool-Aid Re-hab it will mean nada. They only see and hear what Dubya wants them to see and hear.

[TheDave]

for me, this "proves" the pnac document...

I probably should know this, but what is the "pnac" document?

[alkemical]

I probably should know this, but what is the "pnac" document?


http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm

Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century
A Report of the Project for the New American Century
September 2000

[Spider]

I probably should know this, but what is the "pnac" document?
Project for a new American century .......Bill Kyrstol is one of the founders .....American domination of the world ..... few steps have already taken place .....
we will force the American way on every country , these peole believe that we are destined to rule the world since we won the cold war ..........
Preemtive strikes are tops on thier list ......

[Spider]

Right on man!! From one Marine to another you are dead on. Gross deriliction of duty.

When I was sittin' in the sand during the first Gulf War, we all asked ourselves what we were fighting for. All we could come up with is that it's all for oil, and helping build a new wing on the Bush Mansion.

I you are Middle class, or poor (like me), and you vote Republican, there is something very wrong with you. Just ask a Katrina survivor.

Semper Fi, Freak 15, & Amen.

BRONCOS RULE!!!
«««««««««««««Pro Union , I believe there is a war on middle Class , the war began during Reagan , we got help under Clinton , not much though ......
As an American Trucker I see this country as only few can ........ for example , I am in the Oklahoma city TA , me and another driver standing outside talking , a very nice clean cut young man comes up , and asks if we would put Gas in his car , you can see he was ashamed to ask , but he went to his mothers funeral now he couldnt get back home ........ So we filled his car , met his family , gave him 150.00 travel money ..........Times are hard here friend , we need sweeping changes , when a man works for a living and has to ask for Gas money , somthing isnt right .........

[alkemical]

Dave,

Remember - this was drafted BEFORE bush was in office........

we all know gore wasn't going to win - he wasn't cool enough to be on the 'in' crowd.

[Spider]

you know the truth is in the middle , Republicans believe in trickle down economy , IE we make companies rich , they hire more people , more people work the better the system .........
Dems say , the power is with the people , we need huge unions , but like anything else a union that is too big is invested with corruption ........
one thing bothsides miss ( untill election year ) is health care , though the Dems are more on point then the reps ..........
here is what I dont get from republicans ( and there are a few here that use this logic) we give people of Iraq free healthcare , Reps will tell you this is a good thing , but when we want to give Americans healthcare , we are socialist wanting to ruin America ........... go figure

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Right on man!! From one Marine to another you are dead on. Gross deriliction of duty.

When I was sittin' in the sand during the first Gulf War, we all asked ourselves what we were fighting for. All we could come up with is that it's all for oil, and helping build a new wing on the Bush Mansion.

I you are Middle class, or poor (like me), and you vote Republican, there is something very wrong with you. Just ask a Katrina survivor.

Semper Fi, Freak 15, & Amen.

BRONCOS RULE!!!

^5

Quoted for truth.

Welcome to the war, religion, and politics forum, ORANGEJARHEAD. :thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

*** If anyone is woefully ignorant, it's those who make excuses for the total failure of the current administration!

Ain't that the truth?

W*GS has been kneelin' and bobbin' for GeeDubya for so long now that oxygen no longer makes it to his brain, apparently.

[ORANGEJARHEAD]

I'm just sick of it all. Rigging elections that blatently just amazes me. Don't get me wrong, that kind of thing has went on for years, but never has the media & American people ever fallen for a pile of B.S. like the 2002 Presidential elections.

I saw a great report on Free Speach T.V., Democracy Now, that stated overall corporate earnings have went thru the roof in the last decade. Wages for the common worker have barely changed. This is horribly wrong, especially when fuel costs; heating your home, cooling your home, electricity, and lets not forget diesel and unleaded prices have skyrocketed.

I don't even want to start on health care, my wife is a registered nurse and we can't afford it.

I was a supervisor for the Transportation Security Administration. I am completely dissillusioned with our new and improved security apparatus.
If someone wants to get something thru security it really isn't that much of a problem. That's all I have to say about that.

American Trucker was right on also, amen brother. I am a Class A CDL driver also. My dad has been a trucker/farmer all his life, he had to quit this summer due to DOT physical failures due to high blood pressure. He and his wife can't afford health insurance either.

Dark days ahead, and they ain't gettin' any brighter here in North Missouri.

BRONCOS RULE!!!!!!!!

[ClevelandBronco]

I saw a great report on Free Speach T.V., Democracy Now, that stated overall corporate earnings have went thru the roof in the last decade. Wages for the common worker have barely changed. This is horribly wrong...

Actually it's not horribly wrong. You don't like it? Fine. That doesn't make it wrong. And unless you own the business, it's really none of your damned business.

[ORANGEJARHEAD]

It's all of my damned buisiness if I helped the company make the profit! All my buisiness in the world. What, is the price of champagne, Rolls Royces & caviar sky rocketing too? That is the same corporate line of B.S. that has disenfranchised so many Americans. Flush out your headgear, ClevelandBronco.

Again, BRONCOS RULE!!!

[Spider]

Actually it's not horribly wrong. You don't like it? Fine. That doesn't make it wrong. And unless you own the business, it's really none of your damned business.

and it isnt wrong for the worker to get all he can ............ as a republican answer me this ...... why is it ok for Companies to get all they can but not unions ?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's all of my damned buisiness if I helped the company make the profit! All my buisiness in the world, what, is the price of champagne, Rolls Royces & caviar sky rocketing too? Flush out your headgear ClevelandBronco.

:thumbsup:

ORANGEJARHEAD, meet ClevelandBronco - one of the board's foremost anti-democracy/pro-corporatocracy propagandists.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

...... why is it ok for Companies to get all they can but not unions ?

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! ^5

BTW, another pertinent question would be "why does ClevelandBronco side with giant corporations against the American working and middle classes?"

[ORANGEJARHEAD]

ClevelandBronco is just proving the Nazi party is alive and well.

Totally dig the DLRoth pic, LABroncos fan.

BRONCOS RULE, CHEFS SUCK!!!!!

[Spider]

I wouldnt call CLeveland a Nazi ......... Mixed up , yeah , in love with a philsophy that doesnt work , yeah , Put his religion before country , Yeah , but he isnt a Nazi ..........
I realy believe the people that voted republican see the errors of thier ways , they wont admit it , but if they could turn back the hands of time , or if the Dems put a strong canidate up for election , yo uwill see a change ........
what every Republican needs to do is ask himself these questions ......
Reps have had the house and senate since 1994 , has the Contract for America been fullfilled ?
Reps have had the house , senate , presidency , for 6 years now what has got done ?
Reps have had the House , Senate , Presidency , SCOTUS , what has got done ?
Abortion ?
Balanced Budget ?
Smaller goverment ?
Flag burning admendment .......out of all those years , we have flag burning and Taxes ..........
Abortion still the same ....... at least under Clinton the abortion rate was lower ......

[ORANGEJARHEAD]

Talk about misguided!

I Agree American Trucker, I haven't talked to one person that will admit they voted GOP in the last election. They sure have let domestic issues lag.
I am a registered Dem, but I am afraid we won't have a strong cantidate in place for the presidential election.

Notice how fuel prices are dropping right before this year's congressional elections? Bet they go right back up if the GOP steals this election.

Be safe out there American Trucker & god bless.

BRONCOS RULE!! CHEFS AND RAIDERS SUCK TOGETHER!!!!!!

[ClevelandBronco]

It's all of my damned buisiness if I helped the company make the profit! All my buisiness in the world. What, is the price of champagne, Rolls Royces & caviar sky rocketing too? That is the same corporate line of B.S. that has disenfranchised so many Americans. Flush out your headgear, ClevelandBronco.

Again, BRONCOS RULE!!!

Thanks for the profits. Now get your hands out of my pockets before I fire your butt.

[Spider]

American Trucker was right on also, amen brother. I am a Class A CDL driver also. My dad has been a trucker/farmer all his life, he had to quit this summer due to DOT physical failures due to high blood pressure. He and his wife can't afford health insurance either.

Dark days ahead, and they ain't gettin' any brighter here in North Missouri.

BRONCOS RULE!!!!!!!!
Right on Brother , I can relate , Dad was a trucker all of his life also , I am close to high blood pressure , with in a year I will be on medication ......2 nd generation truckers ...... ;D we sure do have alot in common

[Spider]

Talk about misguided!

I Agree American Trucker, I haven't talked to one person that will admit they voted GOP in the last election. They sure have let domestic issues lag.
I am a registered Dem, but I am afraid we won't have a strong cantidate in place for the presidential election.

Notice how fuel prices are dropping right before this year's congressional elections? Bet they go right back up if the GOP steals this election.

Be safe out there American Trucker & god bless.

BRONCOS RULE!! CHEFS AND RAIDERS SUCK TOGETHER!!!!!!you also Driver ........ I pull drop deck
here is how my last run went http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=46515
though I thought I dropped both tanks on the ground pulling onto the site damn near dropped the back tandem into the deep ditch they forgot to tell me about ....... everyone told me good job ........

[ClevelandBronco]

and it isnt wrong for the worker to get all he can ............ as a republican answer me this ...... why is it ok for Companies to get all they can but not unions ?

It's okay for unions to get all they can.

[ORANGEJARHEAD]

I used to pull a flatbed for a concrete company, Wahoo concrete out of Wahoo Neb. & Trenton Mo. I've also driven concrete mixer trucks, all over N. Mo. & S. Iowa. I've also hauled grain. Lookin' to work extra haulin' grain this year, but haven't found a ride yet.

Yeah, my old man taught me how to detour every scale house in S. Iowa & Missouri north of the river. Dad used to haul for D.J. Franzen out of Altoona Ia. His handle was Red Hog, maybe you've heard of him?

I gotta log off, gotta get to bed, I've got to sheet rock a living room tommorrow.

Again, you stay safe out there American Trucker, I'd have done the same for that poor soul in OKC. God Bless.

For the last time today, BRONCOS RULE, CHEFS & RAIDERS SUCK!!!!!!

[freak6]

Cleveland Bronco, I don't know if you are kidding or what. If you are not, I think you are a very sad individual, and I really pity you.

One the level of economics, if you're values dictated our economy (under Bush they do) and continued, it would lead to a revolution, anarchy, and civil war. As it is now, the differential between the rich and poor is at its greatest level in history. That is ultimately terrible for the majority of Americans, and therefore bad for America.

On the level of being civil and a member of this planet, that attitude is absolutely dispicable, dishonorable, and sickening.

You don't deserve to call yourself an American. Being an American is about One Nation, under 'god'. Being an American is about Sacrificing for the betterment of your country, and your fellow American. Compassion for others is what makes us American, and the spirit that led Americans to run into the fires of 9/11 with complete disregard forthemselves. Being an American is what motivated Pat Tillman to give up his million dollar contract extension to enlist in the Army, and help his country in this war on terror, he was willing to make that sacrifice and take that risk to defend his fellow Americans, with his own life.

Your attitude displays none of these great American values.

You are not an American. You are a parasite in America.

[freak6]

Just remember, when our country was under the greatest threat of a terrorist attack in itis history, when the CIA and FBI were "running around with thier hair on fire", warning of the inpending attack, warning the President of the upcoming hijackings, our Commander in Chief

"Didn't feel a sense of urgency"

In other words, he was not worried about it. He was busy clearing brush on the ranch. During the time we were recieving greatest amount of terrorist chatter in our history.

"I wasn't on point"

He wasn't paying attention, he was too busy, he just "didn't feel a sense of urgency" as he was being warned that our American lives were at put at risk.


I guess that is perfectly acceptable so long as the profits keep rolling in.

Republicans are bathing in the blood money. Thier retirement funds are soaked in the blood of my Brothers and Sisters dieing in Iraq.

Why should we expect them to care, only the lower class joins the military anyway.

VOTE DEMOCRAT!!!!!!

[ClevelandBronco]

Cleveland Bronco, I don't know if you are kidding or what. If you are not, I think you are a very sad individual, and I really pity you.

One the level of economics, if you're values dictated our economy (under Bush they do) and continued, it would lead to a revolution, anarchy, and civil war. As it is now, the differential between the rich and poor is at its greatest level in history. That is ultimately terrible for the majority of Americans, and therefore bad for America.

On the level of being civil and a member of this planet, that attitude is absolutely dispicable, dishonorable, and sickening.

You don't deserve to call yourself an American. Being an American is about One Nation, under 'god'. Being an American is about Sacrificing for the betterment of your country, and your fellow American. Compassion for others is what makes us American, and the spirit that led Americans to run into the fires of 9/11 with complete disregard forthemselves. Being an American is what motivated Pat Tillman to give up his million dollar contract extension to enlist in the Army, and help his country in this war on terror, he was willing to make that sacrifice and take that risk to defend his fellow Americans, with his own life.

Your attitude displays none of these great American values.

You are not an American. You are a parasite in America.

Thanks for your input, freak.

[Spider]

I used to pull a flatbed for a concrete company, Wahoo concrete out of Wahoo Neb. & Trenton Mo. I've also driven concrete mixer trucks, all over N. Mo. & S. Iowa. I've also hauled grain. Lookin' to work extra haulin' grain this year, but haven't found a ride yet.

Yeah, my old man taught me how to detour every scale house in S. Iowa & Missouri north of the river. Dad used to haul for D.J. Franzen out of Altoona Ia. His handle was Red Hog, maybe you've heard of him?

I gotta log off, gotta get to bed, I've got to sheet rock a living room tommorrow.

Again, you stay safe out there American Trucker, I'd have done the same for that poor soul in OKC. God Bless.

For the last time today, BRONCOS RULE, CHEFS & RAIDERS SUCK!!!!!!

No I sure havent Bro ....... me and my brother are about 6 months to a year from getting a 1986 White GMC/ Volvo road ready , hard to work on a rig while making runs ........ he has 3 rigs , my ride 1993 Condo Frieghtshaker 470 Detriot 60 series with Bullhauler gears 13 legs :wiggle: his 379 peter hood 475 cat turned up 15 legs , then the White , 350 comeapart{ aka Cummins} with 13 legs ........we have 2 drop decks and a flat ......

[freak6]

Thanks for your input, freak.

You're welcome parasite. Take pride in the fact your side baths in blood money, blood spilled by those defending ideals you have no idea about. And then they cover themselves in the bible and the flag.

Hypocrites for sure. Parasites for sure. Worse than the terrorists that hit us on 9/11?

FOR SURE.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Cleveland Bronco, I don't know if you are kidding or what. If you are not, I think you are a very sad individual, and I really pity you.

One the level of economics, if you're values dictated our economy (under Bush they do) and continued, it would lead to a revolution, anarchy, and civil war. As it is now, the differential between the rich and poor is at its greatest level in history. That is ultimately terrible for the majority of Americans, and therefore bad for America.

On the level of being civil and a member of this planet, that attitude is absolutely dispicable, dishonorable, and sickening.

You don't deserve to call yourself an American. Being an American is about One Nation, under 'god'. Being an American is about Sacrificing for the betterment of your country, and your fellow American. Compassion for others is what makes us American, and the spirit that led Americans to run into the fires of 9/11 with complete disregard forthemselves. Being an American is what motivated Pat Tillman to give up his million dollar contract extension to enlist in the Army, and help his country in this war on terror, he was willing to make that sacrifice and take that risk to defend his fellow Americans, with his own life.

Your attitude displays none of these great American values.

You are not an American. You are a parasite in America.

:thumbsup: ^5

freak15 with the reality check.

[ClevelandBronco]

You're welcome parasite. Take pride in the fact your side baths in blood money, blood spilled by those defending ideals you have no idea about. And then they cover themselves in the bible and the flag.

Hypocrites for sure. Parasites for sure. Worse than the terrorists that hit us on 9/11?

FOR SURE.

Wow. If I were you, I'd try to do something about guys like me. Like get on a football board and cry about it, at least.

Tough businessmen and Christians really have no place in a nation like yours, eh?

You have spunk, freak. I'd pay you a quarter of what I'd make off of your labor any day.

[fido]

Now, I am not here to dissuade anyone here, but, the pdb is nothing more and nothing less than an intel brief of the daily goings on in the world. Admittedly, the pdb was not stressed enough. I have seen many, many intel briefs, and I am here to tell you, things can get lost in the cosmos when you happen to see, read, and write them day after day. The briefer is supposed to quantify any misgivings and rehash important points with the briefed individuals and take questions to clarify. Questions that should have been asked and followed through on.

On a more personal note, just curious here, how many individuals here have actually put your butts on the line for this country? Or, is it just let the other guys do it?

[freak6]

I'm a Sgt. in the USMC.

The PDB stresses the importantness of the last paragraph by giving the old intel a significant downgrade, and then stating the current threat with the key word "Nevertheless", to stress the serious nature of the current threat, and then going into the fact that they were preparing to hijack our planes.

Bush "didn't feel a sense of urgency", because we were under the highest state of alarm possible, and all intelligence pointed to a coming attack, and here was a PDB stating that they are preparing to hijack planes, thank GOD and JESUS that Bush was President and "wasn't on point, and didn't feel a sense of urgency" while on vacation.

Because he actually didn't read the thing. He isn't detail orientated, an outstanding trait for a President to have when dealing with highly detailed intel. Not reading it is the first thing he should have not done, right neo-cons?

And some of these morons wonder how Iraq is so fkd up, and why our troops went over there so unprepared, and how our mission was so unprepared for the aftermath, and why we have a cival war going on there now.

[fido]

are you on cq tonite?

[freak6]

Tough businessmen and Christians really have no place in a nation like yours, eh?

Parasites like you have no place in my UNITED States of America.

Everytime you look at your face in the mirror -

know that the military you pretend to support, are ashamed to provide parasites like you the bed of freedom your existence perverts.

We are ashamed to fight and bleed for aholes like you.

Know that.

You are everything that is wrong with this country, and you represent the complete opposite of our volunteer military. Vile humans like you do not deserve the freedom we ensure that you enjoy.

[fido]

have you been over to the sandbox yet? I hated the camels myself and hated the boredom.

[fido]

are you really sure you are in the marines? in pendleton?

[freak6]

are you really sure you are in the marines? in pendleton?

No, I'm not sure. Maybe it's the Army, wait, I think we fall under the Department of the Navy. Maybe I am in the Coast Guard.

Are you high fido? how the fk are you gonna ask a Sgt. in the Marines, if he is sure he is in the Marines? lol.

I train Marines to go to the Sandbox, but I haven't gotten the call just yet.

[fido]

No need to be cussing now. Just trying to have a friendly conversation. You do have some valid points to be sure. Like defending freedom. I am not so sure that there are many individuals here that would know what it takes and exactly what is at stake here. Cudos

Personally, I would like to see the draft, so that the middle/lower class does not have to shoulder the whole enchilada and do the bleeding. Tillman was an exception. People should read the hows and whys of the birth of this country, and the sacrifices that many, many made. Entire families and fortunes were sacrificed so that this country could be made and people live in freedom. Every single family should be touched by the military, so that more of this "burden" is shared. Representative Murtha is absolutely right when he calls on the 'chickenhawks'.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Parasites like you have no place in my UNITED States of America.

Everytime you look at your face in the mirror -

know that the military you pretend to support, are ashamed to provide parasites like you the bed of freedom your existence perverts.

We are ashamed to fight and bleed for aholes like you.

Know that.

You are everything that is wrong with this country, and you represent the complete opposite of our volunteer military. Vile humans like you do not deserve the freedom we ensure that you enjoy.

Word! :thumbsup: ^5

George W. Bush will surely go down in history as the nation's worst, most corrupt, most incompetent, most dishonest, most elitist, most war-mongering, and most anti-democracy president – a true disgrace to American ideals.

It's hard to believe anyone who voted for this abomination would have the stones to show his face around here - let alone cop a smug, sanctimonious attitude as though he occupied some kind of high moral ground.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm a Sgt. in the USMC.

The PDB stresses the importantness of the last paragraph by giving the old intel a significant downgrade, and then stating the current threat with the key word "Nevertheless", to stress the serious nature of the current threat, and then going into the fact that they were preparing to hijack our planes.

Bush "didn't feel a sense of urgency", because we were under the highest state of alarm possible, and all intelligence pointed to a coming attack, and here was a PDB stating that they are preparing to hijack planes, thank GOD and JESUS that Bush was President and "wasn't on point, and didn't feel a sense of urgency" while on vacation.

Because he actually didn't read the thing. He isn't detail orientated, an outstanding trait for a President to have when dealing with highly detailed intel. Not reading it is the first thing he should have not done, right neo-cons?

And some of these morons wonder how Iraq is so fkd up, and why our troops went over there so unprepared, and how our mission was so unprepared for the aftermath, and why we have a cival war going on there now.

Also, it's not like the PDB was the only warning the ExxonMobil sock puppet received - far from it.

[alkemical]

I won't serve as a solider - i'd be no good.

However i did do work for the navy as a civilian contractor - so i did serve, but in my capacity.

[fido]

exxonmobil sock puppet......not bad lol

[freak6]

In other administrations, them marching out that fool to lie about the real cost of Medicare, under threat of being fired, would be a huge scandal.

In other administrations, thier pseudo scientists taking reports from real scientists, and adding the word "not" and "any" to the sentence "there is overwhelming evidence for global warming" would be a huge scandal.

But in one where they can blatantly lie in the STATE OF THE UNION...these stories are burried under the huge amount of corruption they have committed.

Who is responsible for this corruption, dishonesty, and travesty of a country that we now live in. It's not the voters, they were fooled. It's, the republicans, who control everything in Washington.

Just think how much other corruption is going on without us knowing because the world is so focused on terrorism.

[TailgateNut]

Thanks for the profits. Now get your hands out of my pockets before I fire your butt.


What a pitiful comment.I feel for your employees, and hope the day comes when your business goes to hell because of your misguided understanding of the employer/ employee relationship.

[fido]

You wanna know whats really interesting? All politicians will smile at you and shake your hand, want your vote, tell you what you want to hear. Serve 1 term in congress, get voted out and make 15k per month for the rest of their lives. They are all dishonest. every. single. one.

OTOH-->As many places as I have been, I would not want to live anywhere else in the world. Sure, we have our problems and are not perfect, but it is far, far better than 99% of the rest of the world.....

after all,,, we have the NFL & THE Denver Broncos

[W*GS]

One of the principles under which we try to live is not "sacrifice for others when the State or society demands it". That's the motto of totalitarian regimes, not the United States.

"Ask neither what your country can do for you, nor what you can do for your country".

[alkemical]

i was reading some trotsky in reguards to the czar and how the society and heirarchy worked - and it's some interesting comparisions to what's shaping up now....

[freak6]

You are the ultimate thread killer. Just look at the threads in this forum james.

Tool rocked LA btw, did you go?

[W*GS]

The PDB stresses the importantness of the last paragraph by giving the old intel a significant downgrade, and then stating the current threat with the key word "Nevertheless", to stress the serious nature of the current threat, and then going into the fact that they were preparing to hijack our planes.

Not just "hijack our planes":

Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.

See the "other types of attacks" above, even in the "Nevertheless" paragraph?

Exactly what should Bush have done regarding possible hijackings - and hoping that the coming attack (what date? where?) wouldn't be "other types of attacks"...

Bush "didn't feel a sense of urgency", because we were under the highest state of alarm possible, and all intelligence pointed to a coming attack, and here was a PDB stating that they are preparing to hijack planes,

And "other types of attacks"... What "highest state of alarm possible"?

[alkemical]

You are the ultimate thread killer. Just look at the threads in this forum james.

Tool rocked LA btw, did you go?


nah, i might go see them 10/5 in hartford - if not i'm waiting till the other leg

I know - i post about trotsky and the czarist nature of the ruling class of russia, and how trotsky's observations do sort of fit with the oligarchy seemingly going into place now - and i get crickets.

I don't mean to kill threads - but somehow i do. Can anyone help me out? What am i doing that kills a thread?

[ORANGEJARHEAD]

It took Duhbya 2 weeks to respond to Hurricane Katrina. He was sitting on his duff in Crawford Tx on vacation. When he did bother to show up, the media staged a huge "event", turning on power to only a few locations during his and DICK Cheney's stay. The next day the power went off. Typical.

And to fido, I served in the U.S. Marines during the first gulf war. I enlisted July 25th, 1989 at the age of 19. I enlisted from Grand Jct. Colorado, processed thru the Denver MEP station. I went to boot in San Diego, Plt 2079 Hoorah Hotel company, 2nd Recruit Training Battalion. Went thru Marine Combat training at Camp Pendelton, Camp San Onofre. Served as an AV-8B Harrier Jet Engine Mechanic in Yuma AZ. Spent a lot of the gulf war on a boat, the joint chiefs wouldn't let the Corps deploy Harriers right behind the front lines like god intended. I recieved my Honorable Discharge in July of "93.

Here's something for everyone to ponder, NONE of Bush's Cabinet (excluding Colin Powell) ever served in Combat! Not a one. Bush even deserted, went awol!

[BroncoBuff]

August 6th PDB states one month prior to 9/11 that -

Al Qaeda is in the country, and making preparations consistent with hijacking planes, in addition to casing out federal buildings in NEW YORK.

Bush does nothing. Condi lied to the 9/11 commission saying "There was no actionable evidence. They truth is that <b> they TOOK no action</b> when they should have, obviously. Then she later admitted under oath they warned the FAA.

Well then there was actionable evidence, they did take action, they warned the FAA...great job NSA Condi Rice. For her great work and lies, she got promoted to Sec. of State, where she doesn't even bother to read NIEs on Iraq. She perjured herself before the 9/11 commision within 3 minutes of the real questions that came from Kerrey.

Bush refused to publicly testify, because he would have been immediately impeached had he.

But he did admit this gem.

"I wasn't on point, I didn't feel a sense of urgency, there are some things I wish we'd have done".

As a Sgt. in the Marines, if I am on barracks duty, and I am warned that Al Qaeda is about to drive a truck full of explosives into the barracks, and I do what Bush did, warn the California Dept. of Transportation, and nothing else, I have failed in my duties, and after the attack, if I survived as Bush did, I would be thrown in jail for dereliction of duty. I would never see the light of day again if I allowed that attack to go through without doing anything. Bush stayed on vacation, and admitted that he DID not even read the entire PDB, because as he has said, "I don't have time to read every piece of paper I get", and he needs charts, picture books, etc...

Those are the facts. Draw your own conclusions.

The #1 job of our Commander in Chief is to defend our country. I took an oath to do the same. One of us failed.

I'm with you, really. I'm just not sure what poeple expected them to do. If any president acted intently and forcefully on every threat we received, (or quasi-received), he would be decried as a fear-monger and paranoid.

I love Bill Clinton - really love the man - but what would he have done if he were in Bush's shoes? What COULD he have done? Bush/Condi apparently at least warned the FAA, I guess that was about the best he could do. The Bin-Laden threat went, I think I remember the wording, as follows: "Al Quaeda determined to strike inside the U.S." And there was another point about airplanes. But there are some 20,000 civil air flights each day in the U.S. .... so where do you start to respond to the threat? Big planes? Light aircraft? Executive jets? Crop dusters (they can dust with seran, you know ;D)?

I'm just not sure what they could've done.

I hate the BS about Clinton "failing to stop them" on that stupid ABC mockumentary, but I think you have to be fair to both sides.

THE PROBLEM IS: ... in the CYA lies like those Condi told. "I guess someone somewhere in the bowels of CIA knew (that there was no yellowcake purchase)" Hey, baby ... the bowels are your business. The info simply MUST flow upward to you.

[freak6]

Not just "hijack our planes":

Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.

See the "other types of attacks" above, even in the "Nevertheless" paragraph?

Exactly what should Bush have done regarding possible hijackings - and hoping that the coming attack (what date? where?) wouldn't be "other types of attacks"...



And "other types of attacks"... What "highest state of alarm possible"?

How about do something. Here is what Bush himself said answering your question.

"Well, there are some things I wish we'd have done" - stating that obviously there is a ton of things he regrets not doing.

Why didn't he do it, because he "didn't feel a sense of urgency, and wasn't on point".

As Commander in Chief, the WHEN is completely irrellevant, as the entire intelligence community was expecting the attack to come any day, the when is from the time you read that report until your intelligence bureaus give you the all clear. As Commander in Chief, it is your responsibility to defend the nation from all enemies, foriegn and domestic. He "didn't feel a sense of urgency" about that responsibility.

It outlines his lack of seriousness, preparedness, and incompetentness regarding his job which has reoccurred throughout his dispicable run as the worst President in the history of the United States.

You seem to lack the historical background regarding that time period, I suggest you read the 9/11 report.

[ClevelandBronco]

Parasites like you have no place in my UNITED States of America.

Everytime you look at your face in the mirror -

know that the military you pretend to support, are ashamed to provide parasites like you the bed of freedom your existence perverts.

We are ashamed to fight and bleed for aholes like you.

Know that.

You are everything that is wrong with this country, and you represent the complete opposite of our volunteer military. Vile humans like you do not deserve the freedom we ensure that you enjoy.

Hey, about that job I was offering — can we table that for a while? I don't need a guy who can't focus his anger at the enemy at hand.

I'll keep your resume on file.

[BroncoBuff]

I know - i post about trotsky and the czarist nature of the ruling class of russia, and how trotsky's observations do sort of fit with the oligarchy seemingly going into place now - and i get crickets.

I don't mean to kill threads - but somehow i do. Can anyone help me out? What am i doing that kills a thread?

NONSENSE! ... NOTHING is more important in modern day America than the stratification of classes and the emerging oligarchy. And unlike pre-revolutionary Russia, THIS ruling class is very well hidden, and very well insulated. The best things we can do for our long-term societal health is:

1) Control illegal immigration with an ironclad policy
2) Pass laws (with a new Congress yet to be purchased) adopting the European model that executives are compensated by shareholder votes, and not by boardroom winks and nods.
You don't kill threads ... you make them stronger!


DO WHAT THOU WILST!





Thus spoke Zarathustra

[W*GS]

It took Duhbya 2 weeks to respond to Hurricane Katrina.

Two weeks? Really?

[W*GS]

How about do something.

Like what? Be specific - and propose actions that are practical, can be undertaken immediately, are effective and are legal.

Here is what Bush himself said answering your question.

"Well, there are some things I wish we'd have done" - stating that obviously there is a ton of things he regrets not doing.

Of course, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

As Commander in Chief, the WHEN is completely irrellevant, as the entire intelligence community was expecting the attack to come any day, the when is from the time you read that report until your intelligence bureaus give you the all clear.

There wasn't "the attack", there was likely to be "an attack", of an as-yet unknown form, at an as-yet unknown place (here or overseas), using an as-yet unknown method.

Your tirades (as I've pointed out before) make me believe you think the 6 Aug memo laid out in near-perfect detail what happened on 9/11. It did no such thing.

You seem to lack the historical background regarding that time period, I suggest you read the 9/11 report.

I have. Twice. Have you?

[Spider]

I have. Twice. Have you?

wow is all I can say ......you go around telling all Politicians are liars crooks , scumbags , yet you draw the 9-11 commision report like a gun in a gunfight , yet everyone of those that made up the 9-11 commision are politicians .....
biut I am sure you can justify this is some way ..........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

wow is all I can say ......you go around telling all Politicians are liars crooks , scumbags , yet you draw the 9-11 commision report like a gun in a gunfight , yet everyone of those that made up the 9-11 commision are politicians .....
biut I am sure you can justify this is some way ..........

Heh! :laugh:

For a guy who supposedly believes "all politicians are scumbags," W*GS has certainly spent a lot of time and energy defending those with an 'R' after their names over the past six years.

[W*GS]

wow is all I can say ......you go around telling all Politicians are liars crooks , scumbags , yet you draw the 9-11 commision report like a gun in a gunfight , yet everyone of those that made up the 9-11 commision are politicians .....
biut I am sure you can justify this is some way ..........

It's the best source we got - the most exhaustively researched and well-supported material on what happened on 9/11.

Besides, the entire report wasn't done by politicians - many experts from many areas were involved in creating it and supplying information for it.

[W*GS]

For a guy who supposedly believes "all politicians are scumbags," W*GS has certainly spent a lot of time and energy defending those with an 'R' after their names over the past six years.

:bs:

On the other hand, your only critique of Democrats is that they aren't far enough to the Left - your Democrats ought to be alongside Castro, Chavez, Lenin, and Stalin...

[Spider]

It's the best source we got - the most exhaustively researched and well-supported material on what happened on 9/11.
Still doesnt make it spot on now does it .......

Besides, the entire report wasn't done by politicians - many experts from many areas were involved in creating it and supplying information for it.
Politicians still used thier language and thier point of view over the evidence ....
you cant spin your way out of this one W*GS ........

[W*GS]

So provide me with a story for 9/11 that's better than the Commission's Report, Spider.

[Spider]

So provide me with a story for 9/11 that's better than the Commission's Report, Spider.

real simple , Russia invaded Afghanistan , OBL faught back , we supported and Aided him , then he got pissed off at us , then attacked .......
who to blame ? OBL , Reagan , Bush sr , Clinton , not saying these Presidents didnt try , but they failed plain and simple ..... Then we have Bush Jr who felt it was more important to fish , then defend America , this is the worst ........
Then we have the lax secuirty of Air Ports , they are also to blame .........
Then we have the entire Political system to blame , we spend more time attacking each other then we do terrorist , has been this way since Reagan that I can remember .........
Then there is we the people to blame , we didnt get to involved in the way our country was ran unless it involved sex .........
9-11 has nothing to do with faulty intellegence , FBI , CIA not talking , thats a load of Horseshít ....... what did fail us is our leaders ...........
Now put that in your 9-11 report .......

[W*GS]

That sounds pretty much like the 9/11 report, Spider.

[Spider]

That sounds pretty much like the 9/11 report, Spider.

well then they should have hired me as an expert , I would have saved tax payers millions ........ I havent read the 9-11 report ..dont intend to ...... it seems I know more then those tight asses .........

[W*GS]

You're incorrect on a number of specifics, and failing to read it does you no good...

If you're so smart and clever, when 9/11 happened, did you go around telling your buddies "I told you so"?

[Spider]

You're incorrect on a number of specifics, and failing to read it does you no good...

If you're so smart and clever, when 9/11 happened, did you go around telling your buddies "I told you so"?

That sounds pretty much like the 9/11 report, Spider.
More double speak there W*GS ?
as for telling my Buddies told you so ? no I stood there with tears in my eyes weeping , trying to grasp it all .............

[W*GS]

I said "pretty much", not "you nailed it perfect".

Besides, if you had all that figured out before 9/11, 9/11 shouldn't have come as any sort of surprise.

[Spider]

I said "pretty much", not "you nailed it perfect".

Besides, if you had all that figured out before 9/11, 9/11 shouldn't have come as any sort of surprise.

LOL .......you sound just like a Politician ...... go Check out some of John Keerys gaffs, then come back and tell me how what you just did is different ....... W*GS you are what you hate the most .......a Politician

[W*GS]

Don't have a hissy fit because your own words put you in a corner, ol' buddy.

[Spider]

Don't have a hissy fit because your own words put you in a corner, ol' buddy.
LOL just laughing at your double speak is all ........

[freak6]

There wasn't "the attack", there was likely to be "an attack", of an as-yet unknown form, at an as-yet unknown place (here or overseas), using an as-yet unknown method.

It's dumbass statements like this that make proving you wrong so easy, over and over.

The CIA knew an attack was imminent. They were getting all kinds of intel, as the terrorist chatter spiked and spiked all that summer. The attack was coming.

Then Bush is warned that Al Qaeda (who) is in the US, (where), planning to hijack our planes (how and where), and is casing our buildings in N.Y.(where).

The when again is irrelevant. You act on the threat until the threat of hijackings is squashed, it was clearly imminent, as the intelligence bureaus expected the threat to occur at any moment.

The WHEN IS NOW unless you start acting from the President's perspective on that day, Aug 6th 2001.

Unfortunately, he "wasn't on point, and didnt feel a sense of urgency" at the threat of Al Qaeda terrorists hijacking our planes.

Brilliant huh.

What was posted earlier by Richard Clarke speaks volumes to thier seriousness in dealing with terrorism, all they cared about was Iraq, and missile defense. That is why they immediately demoted the terrorist czar to a SUB cabinet level upon taking office.

Brilliant huh.

"I wasn't on point, I didn't feel a sense of urgency"

Obviously Bush could have taken the threat seriously, had a sense of urgency, and started screening at airports, disallowing possible weapons from coming on board, and increasing security.

But everything they did leading up to 9/11,

<b> Only made it easier for the terrorists, and helped clear the path and enable them to execute the attacks that much easier.

[W*GS]

It's dumbass statements like this that make proving you wrong so easy, over and over.

You're simply using 20/20 hindsight. You're like the guy who looks at a finished jigsaw puzzle and tells the builders "Geezus, you're stupid for not knowing how it was supposed to look."

The CIA knew an attack was imminent. They were getting all kinds of intel, as the terrorist chatter spiked and spiked all that summer. The attack was coming.

It's good to know an attack is coming - but they didn't know enough specifics to do much that was practical about it.

Then Bush is warned that Al Qaeda (who) is in the US, (where)

That wasn't new intel - it was known that al-Qaeda had members in the US - what wasn't well-known by the right people is who those individuals were. You can't do much about a group without knowing details of the specific people in it.

planning to hijack our planes (how and where),

"[O]r other types of attacks" - hijacks weren't known to be the only form of attack, nor did they know which planes (if the attacks were to be hijackings) were going to be hijacked, and from which airports. Note that in Aug 2001, for the month, there were 810,000+ "aircraft revenue departures" (i.e., regular commercial service) flights- an average of 27,000 flights per day. I don't know how many left Northeast airports, but it's in the thousands. How do you possibly keep the unknown hijackers from getting on any one of those thousands of daily flights without totally effing up the entire airline industry?

and is casing our buildings in N.Y.(where).

At least one of the targets (we don't know exactly what Flight 93 was supposed to hit) wasn't in NYC - the Pentagon. The WTC wasn't a federal center, either.

The when again is irrelevant. You act on the threat until the threat of hijackings is squashed, it was clearly imminent, as the intelligence bureaus expected the threat to occur at any moment.

The when is entirely relevant - and if the plot is squashed, how do you know it's been squashed? Every day the WTC towers and the Pentagon aren't hit? For how long is it practical to force airports and airlines to use the absolute highest security levels? And that assumes you're betting that the "other types of attacks" won't take place, and you're putting all our resources into preventing hijackings.

Let's say you believe you know someone will egg your house, probably at night, sometime "soon". Since you don't want that to happen, you stay up nights to keep them from doing it. How many nights can you do that and still maintain your daytime obligations (family, work, etc.)? Let's suppose you pull it off, but instead of egging your house at night, they slash the tires on your car while you're parked at work. Ooops.

The WHEN IS NOW unless you start acting from the President's perspective on that day, Aug 6th 2001.

What specific actions should Bush have taken? I want a laundry list of executive orders that he should have issued, from the perspective of not knowing what will happen on 9/11. If you're so certain about this, you've given some thought to what Bush should have done - and don't leave it at "He should have done something", because that's not sufficient.

Obviously Bush could have taken the threat seriously, had a sense of urgency, and started screening at airports, disallowing possible weapons from coming on board, and increasing security.

Airports were already screening passengers, randomly, using the CAPPS program - passengers' luggage wasn't allowed on the plane until the passenger passed a rudimentary check, assuming a bomb in the luggage set to detonate after takeoff, i.e., a replay of Pan Am 103 back in 1988. The system wasn't set up to prevent suicide hijackers, nor was it set to prevent box cutters being taken aboard, nor to prevent rather innocuous weapons (box cutters) being secretly hidden beforehand.

But everything they did leading up to 9/11,

<b> Only made it easier for the terrorists, and helped clear the path and enable them to execute the attacks that much easier.

The entire system wasn't built nor were policies in place to prevent a 9/11 - the focus was elsewhere, and it had been for years before Bush took office.

Again, Bush didn't do all that he could have - but his options for action were quite limited based on the lack of actionable intelligence available at the time.

[alkemical]

NONSENSE! ... NOTHING is more important in modern day America than the stratification of classes and the emerging oligarchy. And unlike pre-revolutionary Russia, THIS ruling class is very well hidden, and very well insulated. The best things we can do for our long-term societal health is:

1) Control illegal immigration with an ironclad policy
2) Pass laws (with a new Congress yet to be purchased) adopting the European model that executives are compensated by shareholder votes, and not by boardroom winks and nods.
You don't kill threads ... you make them stronger!


DO WHAT THOU WILST!





Thus spoke Zarathustra



I don't believe it is so well hidden anymore. I mean look at how those in the club seem to be more open to flaunting it these days.

Of course the people with the REAL $$$ and REAL power are just faces and names we really don't see.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's dumbass statements like this that make proving you wrong so easy, over and over.

Correct.

You'd think W*GS would eventually get tired of trying to defend the indefensible.

BTW, let's not lose sight of something else here:

Not only was Der Chimpenfuhrer not "on point" and not feeling a "sense of urgency" before the 9/11 attacks (despite all those warnings from all those intelligence sources, both foreign and domestic) - he hasn't been on point or felt a sense of urgency about apprehending Bin Laden since 9/11.

To wit:


U.S. Concludes Bin Laden Escaped at Tora Bora

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

The Bush administration has concluded that Osama bin Laden was present during the battle for Tora Bora [in 2001] and that failure to commit U.S. ground troops to hunt him was its gravest error in the war against al Qaeda, according to civilian and military officials with first-hand knowledge.

Intelligence officials have assembled what they believe to be decisive evidence, from contemporary and subsequent interrogations and intercepted communications that bin Laden began the battle of Tora Bora inside the cave complex along Afghanistan's mountainous eastern border. Though there remains a remote chance that he died there, the intelligence community is persuaded that bin Laden slipped away in the first 10 days of December.

After-action reviews, conducted privately inside and outside the military chain of command, describe the episode as a significant defeat for the United States. A common view among those interviewed outside the U.S. Central
Command is that Army Gen. Tommy R. Franks, the war's operational commander, misjudged the interests of putative Afghan allies and let pass the best chance to capture or kill al Qaeda's leader. Without professing second
thoughts about Tora Bora, Franks has changed his approach fundamentally in subsequent battles, using Americans on the ground as first-line combat units.


http://www.izzyguaal.com/ws/pol/bin/2faces/2faces_thmb.jpg

[ORANGEJARHEAD]

Ha! Der Chimpenfuhrer! LOL!! I shot milk out my nose I'm laughin' so hard! Excellent, I'm using this one daily! It so accurately describes that retarded ****er.
:thumbsup: