OK fess up how many of you secretly hope....

[baja]

Plummer gets a little owie and misses a couple of games this season so you can see what Jay can do?

[Killericon]

Plummer gets a little owie and misses a couple of games this season so you can see what Jay can do?

I don't. Superbowl or bust... We have no time for show and tell with our shiny new first round QB.

[DomCasual]

No. No. And no.

[Kaylore]

There's a part of me that hopes that if Jake went down, Jay could step up like Brady or Rothlisburger. My hope isn't born from wising injury on Jake, but from the hope that we can pick up the slack of an injured player.

For perspective, I have the same feelings about other backups like the linebackers, running backs, and safeties. I think the difference is that those other players would become backups again once their respective starters healed up, whereas Jay would take the spot permanantly.

Things I am guilty of:

I think Jay should start the latter half of the season. I think that our offense will be better under Jay. I think that Jay will scare more defensive coordinators than Jake does, and I think Cutler will be amazing.

[Clockwork Orange]

I don't want to see it happen. I still want Cutler to have his redshirt year.

But if it did happen, we just might see history repeat itself.

http://cache.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Images/Top%20Stories/2005/plummer_jake_rm_103005.jpg.....=.....http://www.seth.com/images/collection_pages/letters/10_pic3.jpg

[NFLBRONCO]

As a Cutler homer I think sitting in 06 is best for all.

[baja]

There's a part of me that hopes that if Jake went down, Jay could step up like Brady or Rothlisburger. My hope isn't born from wising injury on Jake, but from the hope that we can pick up the slack of an injured player.

For perspective, I have the same feelings about other backups like the linebackers, running backs, and safeties. I think the difference is that those other players would become backups again once their respective starters healed up, whereas Jay would take the spot permanantly.

Things I am guilty of:

I think Jay should start the latter half of the season. I think that our offense will be better under Jay. I think that Jay will scare more defensive coordinators than Jake does, and I think Cutler will be amazing.

Finally an honest poster...

[Broncojef]

Sorry guilty as charged. I liken this situation to a how many would like to see Elway fill-in for a couple of games to see if he still has it.

[Crushaholic]

Absolutely not. This is Plummer's team. I just feel BETTER about the situation with Cutler coming in if Plummer wasn't able to play a game or two.

[Ramblin' Bronco]

I just want to get to the big game and win it all, thats the only way we are going to get some respect, we will have plenty of time for jay.

[Crushaholic]

Sorry guilty as charged. I liken this situation to a how many would like to see Elway fill-in for a couple of games to see if he still has it.

That's just silly. Elway is a proven HOF quarterback. Cutler is nowhere NEAR that caliber at this stage of his young career...

[snowspot66]

I hope that if Cutler plays this year that Jake getting hurt is the reason and not poor play and over dramatic media and fans.

[Popps]

Taco wants to know if he can vote twice?

[Kaylore]

I just want to get to the big game and win it all, thats the only way we are going to get some respect, we will have plenty of time for jay.

Here's more honesty. We aren't going to the super bowl with Plummer. We lack two things to make it to the big game: A pass rush and a franchise offensive player.

I firmly believe that you need either a top five QB or a top five running back to get to the Super Bowl (sometimes both) and right now none of our starters are at that level. Mike Bell would have to become TD and Tatum would have to become Tiki Barber and I don't see that happening.

Even if it did, we don't have enough preasure from the front four to get us there.

Jake has a lot of weapons and great protection this year. He's going to make a lot of plays for us, but after four years of learning and watching him in the preseason I'm convinced we've seen the summit and he's not going to get any better. I still think he's a very good QB for us and will get us at least ten games this season and keep the others close, and I also think that we'll get into the playoffs and win a few games, but we're not going over the top until Cutler steps in and comes into his own and our front four can manufacture some kind of consistant pass rush on its own.

[Clockwork Orange]

I firmly believe that you need either a top five QB or a top five running back to get to the Super Bowl (sometimes both) and right now none of our starters are at that level.

The Steelers had neither last year.

[baja]

Here's more honesty. We aren't going to the super bowl with Plummer. We lack two things to make it to the big game: A pass rush and a franchise offensive player.

I firmly believe that you need either a top five QB or a top five running back to get to the Super Bowl (sometimes both) and right now none of our starters are at that level. Mike Bell would have to become TD and Tatum would have to become Tiki Barber and I don't see that happening.

Even if it did, we don't have enough preasure from the front four to get us there.

Jake has a lot of weapons and great protection this year. He's going to make a lot of plays for us, but after four years of learning and watching him in the preseason I'm convinced we've seen the summit and he's not going to get any better. I still think he's a very good QB for us and will get us at least ten games this season and keep the others close, and I also think that we'll get into the playoffs and win a few games, but we're not going over the top until Cutler steps in and comes into his own and our front four can manufacture some kind of consistant pass rush on its own.

Now that is spoken for truth...

[baja]

The Steelers had neither last year.

They had the refs that negates Kaylore's formula

[Clockwork Orange]

They had the refs that negates Kaylore's formula

No, he said that you need a top 5 QB or RB or both to get to the Super Bowl. The Steelers didn't get a handjob from the zebras until they were already there.

[Killericon]

Finally an honest poster...

So, what, you asked a question, and then say that everyone who answered one way is being dishonest?

[BroncoBuff]

Plummer gets a little owie and misses a couple of games this season so you can see what Jay can do?

I cannot tell a lie. I voted yes. Jake can handle a "little owie" for "a couple of games."

[Killericon]

I voted yes. Jake can handle a "little owie" for "a couple of games."

I tell you what. If we lose our first game, then win 14 in a row, yes, I'd like to see Cutler get a start.

If not, I believe this season is our last shot at the Super bowl for another 5 years at least. As such, I do not hope for our starting QB to get injured, even in the slightest.

[Taco John]

Screw injury. I want Jay to start over Plummer simply for the fact that I can't suffer another Jake Plummer playoff choke. I've seen enough of Jay to know he's got all the tools, and just needs the experience. Experience and knowledge of our system is the only thing Plummer has on Jay right now, and there's only one way to fix that.

I think Plummer is an excellent care-taker, but I think he's a road block at this point. He's a great week to week quarterback, but in the big games, he's his own worst enemy.

I hope Jay is starting by the end of the season just for the fact that he's the best arm this team has, and if Shanahan can manage an arm like Plummer's to a 13 win season, imagine what he can do with someone more talented.

[Broncojef]

That's just silly. Elway is a proven HOF quarterback. Cutler is nowhere NEAR that caliber at this stage of his young career...

I know it is silly and hope Jake remains healthy. There are just some guys that are so good you feel guilty watching them and I haven't felt that way as a Bronco fan about a QB since Elway was introduced prior to each home game here, I'd get goose bumps as they anoounced Elways name each week knowing I was watching something special. I'm not saying Cutler is there now but I found myself going to each preseason game and tuning in just to watch Jay's performance these last few weeks. He has an inner strength and confidence of a guy that will be a difference maker and I can't lie I want to cheer for him sooner rather than later.

[Kaylore]

The Steelers had neither last year.

They had a killer defense, and as Baja pointed out, some Zeebra help. They destroyed our offensive line without blitzing. The steelers offense was excellent and Rothlisberger played fine until he got to the SB.

Our defensive front can't get sufficient preassure without blitzing. If we could do that as good as the Steelers did last year, then I could see us making a run.

[Kaylore]

I know it is silly and hope Jake remains healthy. There are just some guys that are so good you feel guilty watching them and I haven't felt that way as a Bronco fan about a QB since Elway was introduced prior to each home game here, I'd get goose bumps as they anoounced Elways name each week knowing I was watching something special. I'm not saying Cutler is there now but I found myself going to each preseason game and tuning in just to watch Jay's performance these last few weeks. He has an inner strength and confidence of a guy that will be a difference maker and I can't lie I want to cheer for him sooner rather than later.

I've watched his 84 yard TD bomb throw eleventy billion times. It's the last thing I watch before I go to bed.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Images/Top%20Stories/2006/cutler_jay_eb_060831.jpg

[BroncoBuff]

If not, I believe this season is our last shot at the Super bowl for another 5 years at least.
How ya figure?

This is a young team now - a very young team.

Nalen, Rod, Lynch and Elam are the only graybeards left.

[Broncojef]

Here's a thing I miss... remember when Elway would walk to the line of scrimage at the start of the game and they'd announce at Quarterback for the Broncos #7 John Elllllwwwaaaaayyyy the crowd would sometimes cheer so long and loud Elway would make the settle down gesture to the crowd. I haven't seen that since he retired and think someday Cutler will be doing the same thing. Like fans actually were excited about their QB.

[Clockwork Orange]

Screw injury. I want Jay to start over Plummer simply for the fact that I can't suffer another Jake Plummer playoff choke. I've seen enough of Jay to know he's got all the tools, and just needs the experience. Experience and knowledge of our system is the only thing Plummer has on Jay right now, and there's only one way to fix that.

I think Plummer was an excellent care-taker, but I think he's a road block at this point. He's a great week to week quarterback, but in the big games, he's his own worst enemy.

I hope Jay is starting by the end of the season just for the fact that he's the best arm this team has.

Then go ahead and just say that you're willing to risk pissing away an entire season and missing the playoffs entirely.

Carson Palmer had all the tools too, but the Bengals still played it smart and gave him a year to learn the offense, study NFL defenses and get prepared to be the man. Two years later, he's one of the top QB's in the NFL.

Come on, you can't possibly be this shortsighted.

[bpc]

I think we can win the super bowl with Jake. We are right up there with everybody else.

We can't however run our full offense.

I don't want Jay to play until we get our running back situation established... then after that i'm down. HOpefully Jake stays healthy all year though and we win the super bowl with him. Jake has always been a great Bronco and his winning percentage in Denver is unreal.

[Kaylore]

Come on, you can't possibly be this shortsighted.

Taco blames Jake for everything. I think when he wakes up in the morning and stubs his toe on a piece of furniture he probably curses and mumbles something about Jake Plummer moving his dresser sideways a few inches.

[BroncoBuff]

yeah ... I'm excited about Cutler, but never was for Plummer.

And now I'm worried. That page 2 ESPN guy has a point. Jake is a kind of delicate personality ... flipping the bird, the car "accident", calling out the fans, reaming out that RMN columnist about his cheerleader gf ... those are all pretty strange events. And he hasn't had a young Turk pushing him for a job since, I'm guessing - junior high?

[Killericon]

How ya figure?

This is a young team now - a very young team.

Nalen, Rod, Lynch and Elam are the only graybeards left.

Plummer has one season left in the Orange and Blue as a full-time, unquestioned starter, and at this point, Plummer is much better than Cutler. Cutler will have growing pains.

Once Rod retires(I figure this is his last season) we find ourselves in an identical situation to what we had before we got Walker...Only one decent Receiver. That's ASSUMING Walker even pans out.

Our Defensive line has no past, and no future(except Dumervil). When Lynch retires, we find ourselves with yet ANOTHER hole to fill, which will be overlooked compared to D-line.

Nalen retiring is a big deal by my estimation. You never know just how much that could affect our line...which would of course affect our Run game.

Right now, we have all the pieces in place. Frankly, if we don't get it this season, the pieces will start falling off a lot faster than we can pick them up.

[BroncoBuff]

tick ... tick ... tick ...

[Killericon]

tick ... tick ... tick ...

Exactly.

[Taco John]

Then go ahead and just say that you're willing to risk pissing away an entire season and missing the playoffs entirely.

Carson Palmer had all the tools too, but the Bengals still played it smart and gave him a year to learn the offense, study NFL defenses and get prepared to be the man. Two years later, he's one of the top QB's in the NFL.

Come on, you can't possibly be this shortsighted.


Bah... We could win it all with this kid right now. We're no better prepared to win a Superbowl with a lesser arm who can't get it done on third downs than a kid who can actually toss the rock.

Starting Jay wouldn't be pissing away anything.

And the Carson Palmer/Bengals comparison doesn't fly. The bengals needed a whole new organizational outlook. We have a championship mentality already in our locker room... Not to mention a mastermind who managed to take a talent like Plummer and turn him into this other thing despite his big game choker tendancies. You seriously lack faith in Shanahan that you don't think he could take this team further with a more talented quarterback...

I'm ready to ditch this "no mistake Jake" crap and get our real quarterback on the field.

[Clockwork Orange]

Plummer has one season left in the Orange and Blue as a full-time, unquestioned starter, and at this point, Plummer is much better than Cutler. Cutler will have growing pains.

Once Rod retires(I figure this is his last season) we find ourselves in an identical situation to what we had before we got Walker...Only one decent Receiver. That's ASSUMING Walker even pans out.

First, this is Plummer's final season in Denver, period. I firmly believe that. Jake is good enough to start in this league and there will be teams interested. Traded, released, whatever. This will be Plummer's last season in Denver.

What exactly makes you think that this is Rod's final season? He has no history of major injuries, his work ethic is legendary, he can still produce at a high level and all of his comments so far seem to indicate that he has no plans of hanging 'em up any time soon.

Also, what's this stuff about Walker "panning out?" He's not an unproven rookie with upside, the guy had an All-Pro season before he got injured. All accounts are that the knee is fine and he's raring to rip this season. He's got a lot to play for this year. Up to, including and especially his contract extension that he won't see a dime of if he doesn't produce. Expect big things out of Javon Walker this season.

[Killericon]

Bah... We could win it all with this kid right now. We're no better prepared to win a Superbowl with a lesser arm who can't get it done on third downs than a kid who can actually toss the rock.

I'll bet he can walk on water, too. Maybe even turn water into wine?

When building my Superbowl team, I'll take 10 years of NFL experience over superior, yet untested, athleticism all 7 days of the week. Twice on Sunday.

[Killericon]

First, this is Plummer's final season in Denver, period. I firmly believe that. Jake is good enough to start in this league and there will be teams interested. Traded, released, whatever. This will be Plummer's last season in Denver.

What exactly makes you think that this is Rod's final season? He has no history of major injuries, his work ethic is legendary, he can still produce at a high level and all of his comments so far seem to indicate that he has no plans of hanging 'em up any time soon.

Also, what's this stuff about Walker "panning out?" He's not an unproven rookie with upside, the guy had an All-Pro season before he got injured. All accounts are that the knee is fine and he's raring to rip this season. He's got a lot to play for this year. Up to, including and especially his contract extension that he won't see a dime of if he doesn't produce. Expect big things out of Javon Walker this season.

ONE All-Pro season while catching balls from a HOF QB in a Wide open, Gunslinging offense.

I do expect big things from Javon. I really do...I was just saying.

Perhaps he'll just get tired of playing? It usually happens at around his age.

[Taco John]

Taco blames Jake for everything. I think when he wakes up in the morning and stubs his toe on a piece of furniture he probably curses and mumbles something about Jake Plummer moving his dresser sideways a few inches.


I don't blame Jake for anything. I just recognize him for what he is: a guy Shanahan pulled off the scrap heap and turned into something else.

I don't blame jake for everything though. In fact, I only blame him for his interceptions in post season games... All six of them in four appearances. But just because Jake's a playoff choker doesn't mean the defense should be excused for their role in the losses. They should stop the other team, even if our offense is busy choking away the field position battle.

[Clockwork Orange]

Bah... We could win it all with this kid right now. We're no better prepared to win a Superbowl with a lesser arm who can't get it done on third downs than a kid who can actually toss the rock.

Starting Jay wouldn't be pissing away anything.

And the Carson Palmer/Bengals comparison doesn't fly. The bengals needed a whole new organizational outlook. We have a championship mentality already in our locker room... Not to mention a mastermind who managed to take a talent like Plummer and turn him into this other thing despite his big game choker tendancies. You seriously lack faith in Shanahan that you don't think he could take this team further with a more talented quarterback...

I'm ready to ditch this "no mistake Jake" crap and get our real quarterback on the field.

Dude, I think you need to get some rest, seriously. Either that or your Jake Plummer hate has taken you to the point of dementia.

We're better off with someone who's never seen real NFL defenses? We're better off with someone with zero actual game experience? That's going to take us to the Super Bowl? Oh wait, I guess that's negated because the Broncos have a championship mentality in the locker room. Sure.

I lack faith in Shanahan because I don't think he can win a Super Bowl with a rookie QB? Whatever you say, TJ. ::)

I can't tell if your schtick is just Plummer hating or Cutler homerism. Looks like an unhealthy mixture of both.

[Taco John]

I'll bet he can walk on water, too. Maybe even turn water into wine?

When building my Superbowl team, I'll take 10 years of NFL experience over superior, yet untested, athleticism all 7 days of the week. Twice on Sunday.

So you're not willing to "waste" this season testing that superior athleticism, but you're willing to "waste" next season doing it?

Like I said... Screw this "no mistake Jake" crap... I'm ready for our real quarterback, and I'm ready to ride shotgun with him win or lose because I actually believe he's capable of winning it all. I only wish Jake hadn't beat that out of me.

[Killericon]

I don't blame Jake for anything.
In fact, I only blame him for his interceptions in post season games...

:rofl:

[baja]

Wonder how the players would take to a QB switch???

[Clockwork Orange]

I don't blame Jake for anything. I just recognize him for what he is: a guy Shanahan pulled off the scrap heap and turned into something else.

I don't blame jake for everything though. In fact, I only blame him for his interceptions in post season games... All six of them in four appearances. But just because Jake's a playoff choker doesn't mean the defense should be excused for their role in the losses. They should stop the other team, even if our offense is busy choking away the field position battle.

Yet you fail to mention the defense giving up 90 points in two trips to Indy or being incapable of getting off the field on 3rd down against Pittsburgh while you're turning every thread you can into a Plummer bashfest.

I bet it was Plummer's fault for not running on the field and touching Marvin Harrison when the defenders forgot to. Damn Jake.

[Taco John]

:rofl:

Laugh it up. Doesn't matter to me. I pardon him for his fumbles... Apparently holding onto the ball isn't a requirement when you're under pressure, so he gets a pass. I can't think of anything else I could blame him for, unless I wanted to break down his third down stats... But that could easily be blamed on our running attack and lack of a real third down receiving presence. Hard to blame Jake for that.

[Killericon]

So you're not willing to "waste" this season testing that superior athleticism, but you're willing to "waste" next season doing it?

Like I said... Screw this "no mistake Jake" crap... I'm ready for our real quarterback, and I'm ready to ride shotgun with him win or lose because I actually believe he's capable of winning it all. I only wish Jake hadn't beat that out of me.

Yes, I would be, because like I said, I think that this season is out best shot at the Lombardi. Next season, I've practically written off. I mean, we'll make the Playoffs, sure, but Superbowl? Please.

I say, we take our shot at the Lombardi this year, and Plummer gives us our best shot at winning it, IMO.

After this year, let Cutler's schooling begin.

[BroncoBuff]

Alan Faneca got raked over the coals when he said "nobody wants to have a rookie starting at quarterback," and then Big Ben won 10 straight.

What will they do to baja?

[Killericon]

Laugh it up. Doesn't matter to me. I pardon him for his fumbles... Apparently holding onto the ball isn't a requirement when you're under pressure, so he gets a pass. I can't think of anything else I could blame him for, unless I wanted to break down his third down stats... But that could easily be blamed on our running attack and lack of a real third down receiving presence. Hard to blame Jake for that.

Oh come on...You have to chuckle at the two contradicting sentences 3 cm apart. It's funny!

[SoCalBronco]

It's best for the 2006 Denver Bronco squad and Jay Cutler's development for him to have a redshirt year. Win-win proposition all around. It is critical that he be allowed a full season to fully prepare himself for what should be an outstanding career. While game experience is certainly important, there is alot to be said about having a substantial period of time to just "soak it in". He should have a full season to study in peace and at his own pace without the pressure and undue stress of simultaneously having to carry a whole franchise on his back as a rookie. That approach will provide us with the biggest benefit long term.

A full season of observation, contemplation, study and repetition free from such worries is ideal. Cutler should learn by osmosis this year. Fans like the instant gratification and all but that is extremely dangerous at the QB position in particular. There is no need to jeopardize anything this year, we have a chance to do some good things with Jake. Jake may do poorly again in the playoffs, but that is a better result...a far better result than to unnecessarily rush our future star into the starting role without the proper period of week to week and month to month classroom and field development. There is definitely the potential for true greatness here...no need to even take the risk of stunting development or rushing the issue.

[BroncoBuff]

His statements were taken out of context.

[Clockwork Orange]

So you're not willing to "waste" this season testing that superior athleticism, but you're willing to "waste" next season doing it?

Like I said... Screw this "no mistake Jake" crap... I'm ready for our real quarterback, and I'm ready to ride shotgun with him win or lose because I actually believe he's capable of winning it all. I only wish Jake hadn't beat that out of me.

Next season he'll have an entire year of studying and preparation under his belt. Next year he'll have a much better grip on the offense. Next year he'll know his progressions a lot better than he does now, which will help with one of the few flaws we saw from him in the preseason, staring down his receiver.

His physical gifts aren't going to go away anytime soon. He needs to get up to speed before he's ready to take the reigns full time. I'd prefer him to do that without the pressure to win games and the scrutiny of the media & fans pressing down on him. Right now it's the honeymoon phase with Cutler, but he's in for a dose of cold reality when he takes the starting job and has the weight of the entire franchise on his shoulders. Welcome to Denver, kid.

[Clockwork Orange]

It's best for the 2006 Denver Bronco squad and Jay Cutler's development for him to have a redshirt year. Win-win proposition all around. It is critical that he be allowed a full season to fully prepare himself for what should be an outstanding career. While game experience is certainly important, there is alot to be said about having a substantial period of time to just "soak it in". He should have a full season to study in peace and at his own pace without the pressure and undue stress of simultaneously having to carry a whole franchise on his back as a rookie. That approach will provide us with the biggest benefit long term.

A full season of observation, contemplation, study and repetition free from such worries is ideal. Cutler should learn by osmosis this year. Fans like the instant gratification and all but that is extremely dangerous at the QB position in particular. There is no need to jeopardize anything this year, we have a chance to do some good things with Jake. Jake may do poorly again in the playoffs, but that is a better result...a far better result than to unnecessarily rush our future star into the starting role without the proper period of week to week and month to month classroom and field development. There is definitely the potential for true greatness here...no need to even take the risk of stunting development or rushing the issue.

Thank you. I couldn't agree more.

Jay Cutler is not about the right now, he's about the next dozen years or so. Aside from trying to win a Super Bowl, his development is the most important thing for this franchise.

[Killericon]

Next season he'll have an entire year of studying and preparation under his belt. Next year he'll have a much better grip on the offense. Next year he'll know his progressions a lot better than he does now, which will help with one of the few flaws we saw from him in the preseason, staring down his receiver.

His physical gifts aren't going to go away anytime soon. He needs to get up to speed before he's ready to take the reigns full time. I'd prefer him to do that without the pressure to win games and the scrutiny of the media & fans pressing down on him. Right now it's the honeymoon phase with Cutler, but he's in for a dose of cold reality when he takes the starting job and has the weight of the entire franchise on his shoulders. Welcome to Denver, kid.

I think this whole argument is revolving around one basic difference of opinions.

Taco thinks Jay's better than Jake right now. I think Jake's better right now. I doubt we're going to argue one another out of those positions, so I'm out.

[Clockwork Orange]

I think this whole argument is revolving around one basic difference of opinions.

Taco thinks Jay's better than Jake right now. I think Jake's better right now. I doubt we're going to argue one another out of those positions, so I'm out.

Physically speaking, I think Jay's better than Jake right now too. Anyone who saw the preseason games could see it.

That's not enough to make me want to rush him into the starting job, though. Bring him along at a steady pace and when he's ready, look the **** out.

[Killericon]

Physically speaking, I think Jay's better than Jake right now too. Anyone who saw the preseason games could see it.

That's not enough to make me want to rush him into the starting job, though. Bring him along at a steady pace and when he's ready, look the **** out.

Jake's a better QB though. Cutler can make better throws, but Plummer's NFL experience gives him a huge upper hand, making reads, reading defenses...Gut instincts...

Give Cutler 1 1/2 seasons, and he'll be better. As of RIGHT NOW, though, I think, Plummer's the better QB.

[baja]

I think this whole argument is revolving around one basic difference of opinions.

Taco thinks Jay's better than Jake right now. I think Jake's better right now. I doubt we're going to argue one another out of those positions, so I'm out.

Shanny has managed jake into a winning QB what makes you think he can't do the same with jay early on. Not giving him more than he can handle but a little more each week. I'm not ready to say I think Jay should start but to say Shanny could not "handle" Jay's short comings as he has handled Jake's short comings is not logical.

[Killericon]

Shanny has managed jake into a winning QB wehat makes you thinkhe can't do the same with jay early on. Not giving him more than he can handle but a little more each week. I'm not readdy to say I think Jay should start but to say Shanny could not "handle" Jay's short cummings as he has handled Jake's short cummings is not logical.

...I agree. I think that, like I said, in about a season and a half, Shanhan will have groomed Cutler into a premier QB, and he will be vastly superior to Plummer.

However, to think that Shanahan can take Cutler and do with him in 8 months what it took 3 years with Plummer to do is also illogical.

Cutler's coming. He'll be scary, but he's not here yet.

[Odysseus]

I trust Shanahan. I'm waiting.

[Northman]

Although i prefer to have Culter sit for a year or so i have to admit im excited to see what he can do in real time. Should Jake go down i would enjoy watching Jay work.

[riiiiick]

Here's more honesty. We aren't going to the super bowl with Plummer. We lack two things to make it to the big game: A pass rush and a franchise offensive player.

I firmly believe that you need either a top five QB or a top five running back to get to the Super Bowl (sometimes both) and right now none of our starters are at that level. Mike Bell would have to become TD and Tatum would have to become Tiki Barber and I don't see that happening.

Even if it did, we don't have enough preasure from the front four to get us there.

Jake has a lot of weapons and great protection this year. He's going to make a lot of plays for us, but after four years of learning and watching him in the preseason I'm convinced we've seen the summit and he's not going to get any better. I still think he's a very good QB for us and will get us at least ten games this season and keep the others close, and I also think that we'll get into the playoffs and win a few games, but we're not going over the top until Cutler steps in and comes into his own and our front four can manufacture some kind of consistant pass rush on its own.

1 game away last year, maybe even one champ tip/pick for TD away and your convinced we can't go there with this team/plummer at QB? your a pro at analysis, khan, but this one doesn't make any sense

[riiiiick]

Screw injury. I want Jay to start over Plummer simply for the fact that I can't suffer another Jake Plummer playoff choke. I've seen enough of Jay to know he's got all the tools, and just needs the experience. Experience and knowledge of our system is the only thing Plummer has on Jay right now, and there's only one way to fix that.

I think Plummer is an excellent care-taker, but I think he's a road block at this point. He's a great week to week quarterback, but in the big games, he's his own worst enemy.

I hope Jay is starting by the end of the season just for the fact that he's the best arm this team has, and if Shanahan can manage an arm like Plummer's to a 13 win season, imagine what he can do with someone more talented.

choke? i submit almost all nfl QB's NEED the experience of losing do or die games before they win it all. at this level it's not so much choking as it is getting outplayed by more experienced players who have been there, lost and want it more. each year this team has went farther with jake. that's called improvement and until that stops, why change? just because some kid has a rocket arm and great potential? you and khan are great on here, but this one doesn't make sense. i am eager to see this season unfold.

[Florida_Bronco]

Shanny has managed jake into a winning QB what makes you think he can't do the same with jay early on. Not giving him more than he can handle but a little more each week. I'm not ready to say I think Jay should start but to say Shanny could not "handle" Jay's short comings as he has handled Jake's short comings is not logical.

Going by that, I'm going to trust Shanahan to make the right decision, one which I believe will (and should be) sitting Jay his first year.

[Circle Orange]

See "Cutler Mania, Plummer Panic" thread.

[Orange_Beard]

I am not a Plummer fan. However the guy has earned his position. I don't wish any ill fate on him. Cutler will get his shot in due time.

If I do have any "secret hope", it is that the Broncos find a way to get Nate Webster on the field.

[Spider]

ok I fess up ... I dont want Jake hurt , Jake is our Season this year , but man I want to see Boy wonder in a pressure game ....... a glimpse of the future ......

[OrangeShadow]

nope

[Rohirrim]

I can wait. I'm perfectly okay with letting Jay get all the time he needs. Jake can win with this team right now and we'll have years to watch Jay.

[Arkansas Bronco]

It's best for the 2006 Denver Bronco squad and Jay Cutler's development for him to have a redshirt year. Win-win proposition all around. It is critical that he be allowed a full season to fully prepare himself for what should be an outstanding career. While game experience is certainly important, there is alot to be said about having a substantial period of time to just "soak it in". He should have a full season to study in peace and at his own pace without the pressure and undue stress of simultaneously having to carry a whole franchise on his back as a rookie. That approach will provide us with the biggest benefit long term.

A full season of observation, contemplation, study and repetition free from such worries is ideal. Cutler should learn by osmosis this year. Fans like the instant gratification and all but that is extremely dangerous at the QB position in particular. There is no need to jeopardize anything this year, we have a chance to do some good things with Jake. Jake may do poorly again in the playoffs, but that is a better result...a far better result than to unnecessarily rush our future star into the starting role without the proper period of week to week and month to month classroom and field development. There is definitely the potential for true greatness here...no need to even take the risk of stunting development or rushing the issue.

This pretty much sums it up. I like Jay alot but have held my ground that needs time to fully get ajusted . I also think he could do just as well as Plummer this year. But giving him a year to pre-pair and get use to it I think he will make this league his playground (well with all of the other weapons we have).

[Drek]

No way. Jake is our best regular season QB on the roster by far. Its his team, we'll see Jay in blowout games anyways. The only time when I'd consider pulling Jake for Jay with a game in the balance is in the playoffs, staring down elimination, if Jake isn't getting the job done.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

That's nice, you look like a Helen.

Helen, we're both in sales.

Let me tell you why I suck as a sales man.

Let's say I go into some guys office and let's say hes even remotely interested in buying something. Well then I get all excited I'm like Jojo the idiot circus boy with a pretty new pet. The pet is my possible sale. Oh , my pretty little pet, I love you. So I stoke it, and I pet it, and I massage it, hehe I love it, I love my little naughty pet, your naughty. Then I take my naughty pet and I go NYAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!

Uuuuuuh. I killed it. I killed my sale

[baja]

That's nice, you look like a Helen.

Helen, we're both in sales.

Let me tell you why I suck as a sales man.

Let's say I go into some guys office and let's say hes even remotely interested in buying something. Well then I get all excited I'm like Jojo the idiot circus boy with a pretty new pet. The pet is my possible sale. Oh , my pretty little pet, I love you. So I stoke it, and I pet it, and I massage it, hehe I love it, I love my little naughty pet, your naughty. Then I take my naughty pet and I go NYAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!

Uuuuuuh. I killed it. I killed my sale

I could Fed - Ex you that bleach....

[toad]

Assuming Jake can put up similiar numbers to last year, I think I have to stick with him for this season.

The chances of Cutler, even as good as he's looked, pulling a Marino or Roethlisberger as a rookie is VERY slim.

I expect Jake to throw for ~3600 yards, 20-22 TDs, and 11-12 INTs. Having 2 quality receivers and another year in the system should help him out a little more.

At this point, I still just have to think Jake is the best chance to get to the SB.

[Old Dude]

I just keep thinking back to the Elway-DeBerg situation years ago.

Elway was thrown into the fray before he was ready and his confidence took a beating. He pulled through, but most people in the organization look back at that as a mistake.

Granted that, as a rookie, Elway relied more heavily on his athleticism, whereas Cutler might be slightly more polished in terms of mechanics and reading the D, and also granted that Cutler would have a more talented supporting cast ...

... but expectations would run higher as well.

I think Shanahan and the staff will make the right call at the right time.

[55CrushEm]

I believe this season is our last shot at the Super bowl for another 5 years at least.

WHY ???

Edit: Forget it.....I see that you already answered it.....but I'll have to disagree.....this season is NOT our only chance at a SB for the next 5+ years.

[Spider]

That's nice, you look like a Helen.

Helen, we're both in sales.

Let me tell you why I suck as a sales man.

Let's say I go into some guys office and let's say hes even remotely interested in buying something. Well then I get all excited I'm like Jojo the idiot circus boy with a pretty new pet. The pet is my possible sale. Oh , my pretty little pet, I love you. So I stoke it, and I pet it, and I massage it, hehe I love it, I love my little naughty pet, your naughty. Then I take my naughty pet and I go NYAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!

Uuuuuuh. I killed it. I killed my sale
let me guess getting abused like you do is , this abuse is good therapy for your bed wetting problem .....

[Jason in LA]

I'm happy to see this poll is in favor of Plummer by a lot.

I do have to fess up about something though. In the preseason I was rooting for the Raiders to win. Wouldn't it be great if they won more preseason games than regular season games? They won four preseason games, so it will be close. If they have won their last preseason game it would have been a lock.

[BroncoInferno]

What I'd like to see is us wrap up homefield with 2 or 3 games left, then let Jay get some experience in those last couple of games.

[Taco John]

Next season he'll have an entire year of studying and preparation under his belt. Next year he'll have a much better grip on the offense. Next year he'll know his progressions a lot better than he does now, which will help with one of the few flaws we saw from him in the preseason, staring down his receiver.

Yeah, last year, Plummer wasn't even allowed to make progressions. We won 13 games. Shanahan could win with Cutler now.

I understand why people are afraid to start the kid and think that we have to start Plummer to win. I just believe that SHanahan is good enough to win with either quarterback, and proved as much by taking "Jake the Mistake" and turning him into "No Mistake Jake" last year.

[bronco militia]

I agree TJ.....

we might as well go through the growing pains now with Cutler, instead of waiting for them in 2007....We survived the 4 years of the SOB era....this should be a piece of cake.

[freak6]

I want to see Cutler play 2 games, but not because of some injury to Jake. I am willing to give Jake Plummer the benefit of the doubt based on his history with the team, and experiance in our offense.

This debate has to come down to:

"Who gives us the best chance to win?"

That then turns into does Jake's greater experiance more than make up for the greater physical skills of Jay Cutler.

That being said, the difference in Jakes greater experiance over Cutler diminishes if Cutler were to start week one as he gained experiance.

In my judgement, Jake Plummer's experiance, familiarity with the offense and his teammates, and his history with the team makes him the obvious choice as our #1 QB.

We could probably still win with Cutler starting, but we went 13-3 with Jake, who wouldn't take that? The Dolphin loss was a joke, we lost in KC in December, and the Giant game we won for 59 minutes.

If we stumble out of the game, and open up 1-3, then I say make the change IF Jake is the reason why we are losing.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Yeah, I'll admit. Nothing serious that will affect his trade value after the season, and nothing season-ending. Just something in the middle of the season that gives Jay a start or two. Jake hits his hand on someone's helmet on the follow through from a pass.

[BroncoMatt]

here is another angle, if Jake is injured and misses any significant time his trade value goes down teh crapper. If jake stays healthy and leads this team to another successful season his trade value is very high.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

here is another angle, if Jake is injured and misses any significant time his trade value goes down teh crapper.

Depends on the injury. He blows out a knee and the value drops, he pulls a hamstring, breaks a bone in his hand, or suffers some other injury that doesn't inhibit his abilities long-term and other teams will still look at how he played.

[maven]

Start Cutler on Sunday. Lets get the future rolling!

[Denver Crush]

Ill bite on this too. I would love that! Cutler made the preseason games somewhat exciting for me personally. I cant say Jake inspires the same for me. Sorry guys.

[24champ]

Sad thread...

I am going to say Jake takes us all the way, his job depends on it and he will get it done. Im not excited about Jay like most of you after seeing him against AZ, he needs a year of holding the clipboard and learning leadership under Jake. All the bronco Players are behind Jake...Rod Smith summed it up best-

"You guys create all that negative energy and you bring that in here," Rod Smith, the Broncos' veteran receiver, said in the team's locker room after a convincing 35-10 preseason victory over Tennessee on Aug. 19. "I hate it. Don't bring that in here. Let our guys play and let the coaches decide who should play."

[dbfan4life]

Yeah, last year, Plummer wasn't even allowed to make progressions. We won 13 games. Shanahan could win with Cutler now.

I understand why people are afraid to start the kid and think that we have to start Plummer to win. I just believe that SHanahan is good enough to win with either quarterback, and proved as much by taking "Jake the Mistake" and turning him into "No Mistake Jake" last year.

No progressions???!!! What NFL QB is "not allowed" to make progressions???!!! Completely ridiculous! I would really like to see stats on this but how many times did Jake look to one reciever and then chuck it out of bounds when they weren't open. You don't complete 60% of your passes by doing that...it's just not possible.

[Taco John]

No progressions???!!! What NFL QB is "not allowed" to make progressions???!!!

Where were you last year? This was well publicized.

[Popps]

I want Jay to start over Plummer simply for the fact that I can't suffer another Jake Plummer playoff choke..

Yea, that loser couldn't bring us back from 24-30 points in the first half. What a schmuck. Never mind the fact that when our defense kept the game close, we actually WON a playoff game.

I can't believe that loser couldn't dig us out of 21+ first half holes. I really expected he'd be able to.

[Kaylore]

Where were you last year? This was well publicized.

That's a total crock. It wasn't publicized anywhere that he wasn't allowed to make progressions. That might be the stupidest thing I've heard you say, Taco. In the freaking Patriots game, when Jake throws an int, they cut to audio of Shanahan chewing him out saying "he wasn't open, go through your progressions." Plummer's problems are rooted in him not going through his progressions but just staring down and throwing to Rod every play.

[24champ]

Yea, that loser couldn't bring us back from 24-30 points in the first half. What a schmuck. Never mind the fact that when our defense kept the game close, we actually WON a playoff game.

I can't believe that loser couldn't dig us out of 21+ first half holes. I really expected he'd be able to.

Yeah makes you wonder how Taco handled all the playoff chokes in the Elway era...

[Taco John]

Yea, that loser couldn't bring us back from 24-30 points in the first half. What a schmuck. Never mind the fact that when our defense kept the game close, we actually WON a playoff game.

I can't believe that loser couldn't dig us out of 21+ first half holes. I really expected he'd be able to.



Our defense does just fine when our offense isn't choking away the field position battle.

[BroncoInferno]

Our defense does just fine when our offense isn't choking away the field position battle.

Our offense does just fine when our defense doesn't allow 3rd downs to be converted at a 75% clip.

[Taco John]

That's a total crock. It wasn't publicized anywhere that he wasn't allowed to make progressions.

The hell it wasn't. I read several articles that hailed the two read and throw it away approach that was improving Jake's quarterback numbers. Maybe by the end of the season, it was opened up more. But that's certainly not how the season started. There's absolutely no reason we couldn't do the same with Cutler if needed. Start him off with bite sized chunks and open it up as he gains more confidence.

But absolutely, Jake was limited last year whether people want to admit it now or not.

[Popps]

Then go ahead and just say that you're willing to risk pissing away an entire season and missing the playoffs entirely.


Come on, you can't possibly be this shortsighted.

Depends when you ask him. A while back, the QB position was "an afterthought," then we "needed competition" .... now we need a Superman-Franchise QB.

Shortsighted would actually be an improvement for him.

[Popps]

The hell it wasn't. I read several articles that hailed the two read and throw it away approach that was improving Jake's quarterback numbers. Maybe by the end of the season, it was opened up more. But that's certainly not how the season started. There's absolutely no reason we couldn't do the same with Cutler if needed. Start him off with bite sized chunks and open it up as he gains more confidence.

But absolutely, Jake was limited last year whether people want to admit it now or not.

Wow, another conspiracy theory by Taco.

Hey, what happened to the Jakes hates Jay production you were trying to seel a couple of weeks ago? I guess them chumming on the sidelines and multiple reports from reporters and our own fans on this board (who attended training camp) killed that one for you?

At least you're committed to your agenda. Whatever it takes, right?

[Taco John]

Our offense does just fine when our defense doesn't allow 3rd downs to be converted at a 75% clip.


How are the two relative?

[Popps]

Our offense does just fine when our defense doesn't allow 3rd downs to be converted at a 75% clip.

Dude, don't start mixing logic into this conversation. We've got conspiracy theories to talk about.

[Taco John]

Wow, another conspiracy theory by Taco.

Hey, what happened to the Jakes hates Jay production you were trying to seel a couple of weeks ago? I guess them chumming on the sidelines and multiple reports from reporters and our own fans on this board (who attended training camp) killed that one for you?

At least you're committed to your agenda. Whatever it takes, right?


Right. Ask Kaylore about the "chumming it up on the sidelines" between Jay and Jake. Now you're just making things up.

I'm not confused about there being no love lost between Jay and Jake. I think it's amusing that people are insistent on clinging to that idea, DESPITE the fact that our own guys have gone to camp and saw the exact opposite.

[RonDaChamp24]

Jay's time will come. for right now it's Plummer's team, and I would never wish injury on ANY player, much less our starting qb.

[Popps]

How are the two relative?

Wow.

Questions like that clear up a lot.

[BroncoInferno]

How are the two relative?

In the same way that the defense giving up a ton of points is relative to the quarterback.

[Clockwork Orange]

Geez TJ, if they start Cutler this year, you'll have to find someone else to blindy scapegoat for all that ails the Broncos. It's obvious that Cutler will get a free pass, ala Brian Griese, no matter what he does, so who's it gonna be?

Come on, you've shown that you're incapable of holding the entire team accountable for their shortcomings and that you have to have an individual to heap the blame on when things don't go well.

[Taco John]

Wow, another conspiracy theory by Taco.




What conspiracy? Everybody knows that Jake was put on a leash last season. This is nothing new. People are just now trying to change history to say that Jake wasn't limited. No big deal. People are going to change history to suit their agendas. You've already turned our offensive oriented teams of 97 and 98 into the Chicago Bears of 85 to suit your argument. Why should I be suprised that you're changing history on Plummer now?

[Popps]

Our defense does just fine when our offense isn't choking away the field position battle.

Really?

Is that why our longest time of possession scoring drive, and then subsequent pinning of Pittsburgh to their 10 yard line led to them walking down the field, NINETY YARDS on us to punch it in NOT ONCE, BUT TWICE after the refs gave us another shot with a penalty on them?

You just keep throwing softballs out there Taco, and I'll keep hitting them out of the park.

This is probably the point where I need to remind you again that you saying it doesn't make it true. Your arguments never rest in statistical or factual information, so I suppose you have to choice but to fabricate misinformation and conspiracy theories.

Speaking of which, I heard Jay Cutler is selling our playbooks to Chiefs players. At least two of my "sources" tell me that.

[Popps]

What conspiracy? Everybody knows that Jake was put on a leash last season.

Ahhh, and the waffling begins.

Was it "put on a leash" or "not allowed a progression."

You get your fabricated story straight and get back to us.

[BroncoInferno]

People are going to change history to suit their agendas.

LOL Hilarious! LOL Hilarious!

Oh, man, no comment necessary except, "Pot, meet kettle."

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Keeping Plummer would be better for this site's traffic...

[Popps]

Geez TJ, if they start Cutler this year, you'll have to find someone else to blindy scapegoat for all that ails the Broncos. It's obvious that Cutler will get a free pass, ala Brian Griese, no matter what he does, so who's it gonna be?

You've obviously been here long enough to call him out accurately. The problem is, a lot of these new posters around here haven't seen his whole act.

I've said it before, Plummer could win the next two SBs as MVP in blowouts, and Taco will call for his head.

Now, when Jay takes the helm, be prepared for a defense for his errors that would have made Johnny Cochran proud.

[Taco John]

Geez TJ, if they start Cutler this year, you'll have to find someone else to blindy scapegoat for all that ails the Broncos. It's obvious that Cutler will get a free pass, ala Brian Griese, no matter what he does, so who's it gonna be?

Come on, you've shown that you're incapable of holding the entire team accountable for their shortcomings and that you have to have an individual to heap the blame on when things don't go well.


I'm more than willing to hold the entire team accountable. I just happen to proffer criticism for Jake along the way, which people are reactive to. Nobody reacts to my criticism for the defense because they're too busy knee-jerking over my criticisms for Jake's constant choking. And instead of defending his choke artist act, it's easier to flap their arms and run in circles about the defense.

The defense absolutely needs to improve, but we're going to keep losing games if the offense keeps losing the field position battles against playoff calibre teams, and if Jake continues the trend of throwing at least one or more interceptions per postseason game.

[Taco John]

I've said it before, Plummer could win the next two SBs as MVP in blowouts, and Taco will call for his head.



LOL All I care about is winning Superbowls. I'd be riding Jake's jock if I believed he were capable of winning a Superbowl with us. But since he continues to choke during big games, I'm not so impressed with the idea that he can do it.

I wouldn't be nearly as hard on Jake if I could point to one single playoff game where he hasn't thrown an interception.

[Clockwork Orange]

Keeping Plummer would be better for this site's traffic...

It won't matter, TJ will find some other schtick that will basically equate to nothing more than trolling his own board.

[BroncoInferno]

I wouldn't be nearly as hard on Jake if I could point to one single playoff game where he hasn't thrown an interception.

Hopefully, it won't take him as long as Elway to accompish that...otherwise we have four games to go.

[Popps]

The defense absolutely needs to improve, but we're going to keep losing games if the offense keeps losing the field position battles against playoff calibre teams, and if Jake continues the trend of throwing at least one or more interceptions per postseason game.

Like I said, we had long drive that ate up the clock, ended up in points and then we made Pitt start at their own 10.

Our defense responded by allowing a 90 YARD TD DRIVE.

Don't tell me about the "field position battle" when your defense allows the opposition to score on EVERY ONE of their first 5 drives, even drives starting deep in their own territory.

You've got it backwards, my friend. Your defense needs to protect your offense in the playoffs. The history of the NFL is laden with examples of this and almost void of teams falling into 21+ holes and digging out.

We allowed Manning an NFL playoff record. Then we lay down like Kansas City whores in our OWN HOUSE for Rothlisberger.

It's a disgrace.

Conversely, when our defense showed up and played a little playoff football, our offense got chugging, and we won.

Shocking, huh?

[Taco John]

Ahhh, and the waffling begins.

Was it "put on a leash" or "not allowed a progression."

You get your fabricated story straight and get back to us.


What's the difference between the two? I'm using them interchangably.

At least you're admitting now that he was put on a leash. So how are you defining that?

[Popps]

It won't matter, TJ will find some other schtick that will basically equate to nothing more than trolling his own board.

:rofl:

[Donk]

I just keep thinking back to the Elway-DeBerg situation years ago.

Elway was thrown into the fray before he was ready and his confidence took a beating. He pulled through, but most people in the organization look back at that as a mistake.

Granted that, as a rookie, Elway relied more heavily on his athleticism, whereas Cutler might be slightly more polished in terms of mechanics and reading the D, and also granted that Cutler would have a more talented supporting cast ...

... but expectations would run higher as well.

I think Shanahan and the staff will make the right call at the right time.



Cutler is better then Elway was IN HIS FIRST YEAR
Plumer is better then DeBerg
Plumer's team is much better then Deberg's team was.

I hope when Cutler is better then Plumer the Broncos play him.

[ludo21]

wow, 22 people actually want Jake to go down and throw away our season??

Jake is our man, he does just fine, he is a WINNER, not a stat machine, sorry if that doesnt suit everyone here.

[Taco John]

It won't matter, TJ will find some other schtick that will basically equate to nothing more than trolling his own board.


How is losing faith in your quarterback who's thrown 6 interceptions in 4 playoff outings "trolling?" What was this thread about if not Jay vs. Jake anyway?

[Popps]

What's the difference between the two? I'm using them interchangably.

At least you're admitting now that he was put on a leash. So how are you defining that?

"Putting him on a leash" isn't exactly how I'd put it. It's a sensational way of describing the situation, and certainly plays to your burning desire to criticize the guy who ran Griese out of town.

I've never denied that Jake was asked to tone it down. They asked him to do too much the year before. He broke some franchise records, but also put the ball in the air too much and that resulted in some INTs.

Jake was asked to reel it in a bit, and throw the ball away when nothing was there. They installed a higher percentage passing game for him, which played to his skill-set and mobility, and resulted in a phenomenal year for him. (Pro Bowl numbers)

So, when you use the two interchangeably, you're just doing that to suit your agenda. Asking a QB to play more within a system is not the same as prohibiting him from making ANY reads. Get real.

[bronco militia]

wow, 22 people actually want Jake to go down and throw away our season??

Jake is our man, he does just fine, he is a WINNER, not a stat machine, sorry if that doesnt suit everyone here.


the poll says two games

[Clockwork Orange]

How is losing faith in your quarterback who's thrown 6 interceptions in 4 playoff outings "trolling?" What was this thread about if not Jay vs. Jake anyway?

It is when you do all you can to turn every thread you touch into a bash Jake Plummer thread, as you've been doing for a while now.

Whatever, it's your board. Do what you will.

[Popps]

wow, 22 people actually want Jake to go down and throw away our season??


Like I've said, this forum resides somewhere just north of the Twilight Zone. Just an utterly bizarre place.

But, in fairness... who knows how many times Taco voted.

[Taco John]

"Putting him on a leash" isn't exactly how I'd put it. It's a sensational way of describing the situation, and certainly plays to your burning desire to criticize the guy who ran Griese out of town.

I don't care about Griese being run out of town. I care about the 6 interceptions in 4 playoff appearances. I have no problem with Griese being run out of town. I think he'd have made a better back-up than BVP and all the other schlubs we've had backing up Jake, but if Griese hadn't been run out of town, we likely wouldn't have Jay now. So I'm actually GLAD Griese was run out of town...

I'm not glad, however, that Jake seems to choke during big games, which is why I'm able to criticize the guy at all.


I've never denied that Jake was asked to tone it down. They asked him to do too much the year before. He broke some franchise records, but also put the ball in the air too much and that resulted in some INTs.

They didn't ask Jake to do too much the year before. That's ridiculous. Shanahan never once asked Jake to throw the ball with his left hand if he can't get it off with his right. Shanahan did not ask Jake to throw a ridiculous floater in the endzone against San Diego and blow the division championship for us... This is great stuff... It's Shanahan's fault that Jake choked in 2004 because he asked Jake to do too much, resulting in 20 interceptions... Keep blaming Shanahan for turning Jake into a playoff contender. This is rich!


Jake was asked to reel it in a bit, and throw the ball away when nothing was there. They installed a higher percentage passing game for him, which played to his skill-set and mobility, and resulted in a phenomenal year for him. (Pro Bowl numbers)

Yeah... and they decreased his progressions to only half the field as part of this higher percentage passing game. We're saying the same thing, only you're trying to pretty it up as much as possible. No matter how pretty you want to make it sound, it doesn't change my point that we could do the same with Jay. I understand that isn't likely to happen. But I believe in Shanahan enough that I think he could do just as well this year with Jay or Jake.


So, when you use the two interchangeably, you're just doing that to suit your agenda. Asking a QB to play more within a system is not the same as prohibiting him from making ANY reads. Get real.

I never said they prohibited him from making ANY reads. This is the familiar "stuff a straw man, attribute that straw man to Taco, and then beat the straw man down." Like I said, we're saying the same thing, only you're trying to put the best face on it as possible for Jake. I don't care about that. Go for it. I'm just saying that I believe Shanahan could win with Jay now if he chose to.

[Taco John]

Like I've said, this forum resides somewhere just north of the Twilight Zone. Just an utterly bizarre place.

But, in fairness... who knows how many times Taco voted.


Zero. I don't want to see Jake injured at all. I just want to see our real quarterback in there getting his experience.

[ludo21]

Like I've said, this forum resides somewhere just north of the Twilight Zone. Just an utterly bizarre place.

But, in fairness... who knows how many times Taco voted.



lol, thats why i love it.

Sometimes after a nights sleep i change my opinionn ;D

TJ wants the D to improve. He is with us on that.

But his Plummer bashing has gotta start with the OL first, not just Plummer, the OL was HORRENDOUS in the Pitt game. Why he never goes on about that i will never know.

[Taco John]

It is when you do all you can to turn every thread you touch into a bash Jake Plummer thread, as you've been doing for a while now.


You mean the other Jay vs. Jake threads? Or offense vs. defense threads? or Jake vs. his receiver threads? *shrug*

Apparently the term "troll" means anything anymore.

[freak6]

Why would the season be thrown away by starting Cutler?

You can't misconstrue a vote for Cutler to play 2 games as a vote for

"I want Jake to get hurt, and fk this season, let's get the kid some experiance so we can win next season"

That would be beyond idiotic. Those that want to see Cutler get some experiance don't want to piss away the season, or see a solid good guy like Jake Plummer get hurt.

WE ALL WANT TO WIN THE SUPERBOWL THIS YEAR FOLKS.

Cutler needs to cut his teeth for an entire regular season before going into the playoffs. He isn't ready for that despite him torching garbage team's preseason defenses. But, yeah, I'd love to see him get some experiance this season before hopefully taking the reins in 07.

I think a vote for No to this is silly.

[bronco militia]

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/drew/121404drew.gif

[freak6]

But his Plummer bashing has gotta start with the OL first, not just Plummer, the OL was HORRENDOUS in the Pitt game. Why he never goes on about that i will never know.

Because on the 2 picks he threw, he had all day, and made terrible reads, and terrible throws.

The protection was fine. The fumbles, eh, that was on Foster and Alexander.

[24champ]

lol, thats why i love it.

Sometimes after a nights sleep i change my opinionn ;D

TJ wants the D to improve. He is with us on that.

But his Plummer bashing has gotta start with the OL first, not just Plummer, the OL was HORRENDOUS in the Pitt game. Why he never goes on about that i will never know.

My opinion on that Pitt game is that the whole team played like sh!t, its easy to point fingers. Jake took the blame and took the hit for the team being the team leader he is. I dont know what kind of Leader Jay is, hopefully he can learn from Jake and learn how to be a leader. It is what the QB position is about, leading.

Anyway on to the new season "The Revenge Tour Part Deux" starts sunday in St. Louis.:thumbs:

[freak6]

Anyway on to the new season "The Revenge Tour Part Deux" starts sunday in St. Louis.:thumbs:

That's what I'm talking about. This horse is beaten down, and people are taking this to far and reposting the same dumbass sht as always.

WAR BRONCOS

[bronco militia]

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/drew/060305drew.gif

[bronco militia]

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/drew/081305drew.gif

[BroncoInferno]

Because on the 2 picks he threw, he had all day, and made terrible reads, and terrible throws.

The protection was fine. The fumbles, eh, that was on Foster and Alexander.


Alexander ran the wrong route on one of the picks and was promptly ripped a new one on the sideline by Shanny. That sideline pick was all on Alexander.

[bronco militia]

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/drew/090905drew.gif

[freak6]

Alexander ran the wrong route on one of the picks and was promptly ripped a new one on the sideline by Shanny. That sideline pick was all on Alexander.

Really, can you back that up with something? I'm not calling you a liar, but I'd like confirmation on that. That'd change my mind alot on this beat down topic.

[ludo21]

lol, those comics are great Ha!

Jake has steadily improved since he got here, so i can only think he will get better this year.

[bronco militia]

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/drew/110505drew.gif

[BroncoInferno]

Really, can you back that up with something? I'm not calling you a liar, but I'd like confirmation on that. That'd change my mind alot on this beat down topic.

I saw it during the game. Right after that pick there was a sideline shot and Shanny was tearing into Alexander. I think a couple of other posters noted the same thing if I'm remembering right. Now, I'll admit I'm making an educated guess here based on Alexander having been the intended receiver on the play. It doesn't seem likely that he was being ripped into immediately following a pick on which he was the intended receiver for another reason. If your asking if have a clip to post or something, I don't. Maybe someone else can provide that.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

wow, 22 people actually want Jake to go down and throw away our season??

Jake is our man, he does just fine, he is a WINNER, not a stat machine, sorry if that doesnt suit everyone here.

Winners lead their team to more than 19 friggin' points in the 1st half of 4 playoff games.

But it's nice to see another thread devolve into, "Another unit wasn't perfect, therefore Jake has no responsibility in another playoff loss thread."

[No1BroncoFan]

lol, thats why i love it.

Sometimes after a nights sleep i change my opinionn ;D

TJ wants the D to improve. He is with us on that.

But his Plummer bashing has gotta start with the OL first, not just Plummer, the OL was HORRENDOUS in the Pitt game. Why he never goes on about that i will never know.
He used to go on at length about the shortcomings of the offensive line. Of course, that was back when no excuse was too extreme to excuse "Golden Griese" of any and all shortcomings.

Ben

[listopencil]

An injury? No. I'm hoping we blow some teams out so Cutler can get reps in garbage time. That's it. Nothing more. Plummer at QB gives us our best chance to win any game we play this year. Next year may be different (although I doubt it), and there is a change coming, but starting a rookie QB on this team this year would be absolutely irresponsible to the point of stupidity unless there were no other options.

[BroncoInferno]

Winners lead their team to more than 19 friggin' points in the 1st half of 4 playoff games.

So, going on this logic, I guess Elway must have been a loser for producing only 22 friggin' first half points in our three Super Bowl losses, right?

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

An injury? No. I'm hoping we blow some teams out so Cutler can get reps in garbage time. That's it. Nothing more. Plummer at QB gives us our best chance to win any game we play this year. Next year may be different (although I doubt it), and there is a change coming, but starting a rookie QB on this team this year would be absolutely irresponsible to the point of stupidity unless there were no other options.

Exactly

[bronco militia]

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/drew/011806drew.gif

[Hercules Rockefeller]

So, going on this logic, I guess Elway must have been a loser for producing only 22 friggin' first half points in our three Super Bowl losses, right?

Thanks for proving my point
Elway- in the Super Bowl
Jake- in the playoffs, still can't get to the SB

Using the Jake defenders logic, lets look at who was around him. Do we really need to debate who had the better skill position players in those games? Therefore, John is not to blame for anything that happened in those games. The team around him was not perfect, so it's not his fault he couldn't win.

[bronco militia]

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/drew/012306drew.gif

[BroncoInferno]

Of course do we really need to debate who had the better skill position players in those games?

Yeah, Jake had a star studded cast to work with: Jeb Putzier, Ashley Lelie, Mike Anderson, best receiver is 36 years old...just an awesome, awesome arsenal there. An All-Pro who's-who. So awesome that Shanny completely overhauled the entire group in the offseason.

[bronco militia]

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/drew/archives/Drew0812toon.gif

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Yeah, Jake had a star studded cast to work with: Jeb Putzier, Ashley Lelie, Mike Anderson, best receiver is 36 years old...just an awesome, awesome arsenal there. An All-Pro who's-who. So awesome that Shanny completely overhauled the entire group in the offseason.

Yeah, those guys were so ****ty that Denver was 5th in total offense last year and 7th in scoring.

[maven]

Depends on the injury. He blows out a knee and the value drops, he pulls a hamstring, breaks a bone in his hand, or suffers some other injury that doesn't inhibit his abilities long-term and other teams will still look at how he played.

Seriously, what team is going to trade for a 32 year old QB? Knowing the Broncos will cut him since his contract is not guaranteed next season. C'mon, his trade value is worth ****.

[listopencil]

Thanks for proving my point
Elway- in the Super Bowl
Jake- in the playoffs, still can't get to the SB

Using the Jake defenders logic, lets look at who was around him. Do we really need to debate who had the better skill position players in those games? Therefore, John is not to blame for anything that happened in those games. The team around him was not perfect, so it's not his fault he couldn't win.


OK, let's look at a few of the players around Jake last year:

Mike Anderson, our starting RB- cut
Trevor Pryce, our big name D-Lineman- cut
Jeb Putzier, our starting TE- cut
Darrent Williams, our #2 CB- injured. Would have been nice to have him healthy.
Ashley Lelie, our #2 WR- traded away
Tatum Bell, our #2 RB- overtaken in Training Camp by an UDFA
Ron Dayne, the heir apparent at RB- cut



Yeah, we fielded a team of All Stars last year around Jake. He should have managed us to a Super Bowl win.

This tired mantra by the Jake Bashers is getting pretty worn out. Yes, Elway went to the Super Bowl and lost when the teams weren't good enough to win it. You can say that the only reason those teams made it was on the arm of Elway-to a point. Yes, Elway went to the Super Bowl and won when the team was good enough to win it. Those two teams were incredible. Do you expect Plummer to do what Elway did? I don't. I don't expect anyone to do what Elway did.

[BroncoInferno]

Yeah, those guys were so ****ty that Denver was 5th in total offense last year and 7th in scoring.

Thanks to Shanny's brilliance at game planning. I'm with Taco on laying the brunt of our offensive success at the feet of Shanny. The offensive talent was mediocre on offense last season, from Jake on down the line. That became clear when we had to watch them playing from behind. The brilliant smoke and mirrors no longer worked. But, no, I guess it is strictly up to Jake to generate offense. Putz and Lelie were budding All-Pro studs being held back by Plummer. Apparently, Shanny does not see it that way since he got rid of every guy I mentioned other than the Ageless One.

[listopencil]

Yeah, those guys were so ****ty that Denver was 5th in total offense last year and 7th in scoring.

So why are they gone?

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Seriously, what team is going to trade for a 32 year old QB? Knowing the Broncos will cut him since his contract is not guaranteed next season. C'mon, his trade value is worth ****.

Packers, Washington, San Francisco, Minnesota, Tampa and others would love to have him unless their young guys suddenly improve. Buffalo, St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago are other possibilities.

[BroncoInferno]

So why are they gone?

Hell, I think it actually cost more against the cap to get rid of Putz than it would have to just keep him around. That's how much Shanny thought of that guy.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

This tired mantra by the Jake Bashers is getting pretty worn out. Yes, Elway went to the Super Bowl and lost when the teams weren't good enough to win it. You can say that the only reason those teams made it was on the arm of Elway-to a point. Yes, Elway went to the Super Bowl and won when the team was good enough to win it. Those two teams were incredible. Do you expect Plummer to do what Elway did? I don't. I don't expect anyone to do what Elway did.

I didn't bring up Elway. Once again it was a Jake defender who brought Elway into the debate. All the people who are not happy with Jake have moved on from #7. You guys are the ones that continue to make the fallacious argument that the people who do not want Jake at QB are still pining for JE to come back. What I want is a QB that doesn't have to have everyone else around him be perfect for anything to get done. That's all these threads turn into, "Well the D wasn't perfect that game, so we can't lay all the blame on Jake." No unit is ever going to be perfect. Jake has led the offense to 1st half totals of 3, 3, 10, and 3 in the 4 playoff games he's played with the Broncos. Those numbers are terrible. It doesn't matter if there was no pass rush, Jake flat out could not move the offense into scoring position in playoff games. Hell, the only TD he's led the team was from an iffy PI call. So they had to abandon the run, guess that means that Jake can't get it done when he's forced to win the game on his own by throwing. BI pointed out that Shanny overhauled the offense this off-season because the skill positions weren't good enough. Shanny also went out and got a new QB, what does that say about what he thinks of Jake at the same time? You can't say the skill positions weren't good enough and point out the changes that were made, and then fail apply the same logic to the QB position at the same time.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

So why are they gone?

Why did Shanny trade up for a 1st-round QB?

[maven]

Back to the topic of this thread.

Start CUTLER!

[listopencil]

I didn't bring up Elway. Once again it was a Jake defender who brought Elway into the debate. All the people who are not happy with Jake have moved on from #7. You guys are the ones that continue to make the fallacious argument that the people who do not want Jake at QB are still pining for JE to come back. What I want is a QB that doesn't have to have everyone else around him be perfect for anything to get done. That's all these threads turn into, "Well the D wasn't perfect that game, so we can't lay all the blame on Jake." No unit is ever going to be perfect. Jake has led the offense to 1st half totals of 3, 3, 10, and 3 in the 4 playoff games he's played with the Broncos. Those numbers are terrible. It doesn't matter if there was no pass rush, Jake flat out could not move the offense into scoring position in playoff games. Hell, the only TD he's led the team was from an iffy PI call. So they had to abandon the run, guess that means that Jake can't get it done when he's forced to win the game on his own by throwing. BI pointed out that Shanny overhauled the offense this off-season because the skill positions weren't good enough. Shanny also went out and got a new QB, what does that say about what he thinks of Jake at the same time? You can't say the skill positions weren't good enough and point out the changes that were made, and then fail apply the same logic to the QB position at the same time.

No, he doesn't have to have everything around him to be perfect to function. He could use a decent blocking scheme, though. How about no trying to use our banged up and non-aggressive RT to block the OLB facing a 3-4. That's an adjustment that should have been made immediately. But Shanny has problems against a 3-4 and this adjustment wasn't done. The game plan just wasn't very good.

How about spending some money on the D-Line so our opponent could face some pressure too? No, that wasn't done either.


The overhaul on O didn't include the QB. Jake's still out there at the #1 spot. We drafted for the future in Cutler but cut and replaced the other guys mentioned. That's a big difference. Applying the same logic we would have gone FA for a QB, not draft.

[listopencil]

Why did Shanny trade up for a 1st-round QB?

Because after Plummer we have crap and Plummer is in his thirties.

[Clockwork Orange]

You mean the other Jay vs. Jake threads? Or offense vs. defense threads? or Jake vs. his receiver threads? *shrug*

Apparently the term "troll" means anything anymore.

Or any thread you poke your head into and decide to turn into a Plummer thread, regardless of the original topic.

[maven]

Because after Plummer we have crap and Plummer is in his thirties.

Where's the BVP homers who wanted to waste a roster spot on him.

:giggle: :rofl: Hilarious!

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Because after Plummer we have crap and Plummer is in his thirties.

You don't really believe that.

[listopencil]

Where's the BVP homers who wanted to waste a roster spot on him.

:giggle: :rofl: Hilarious!



I was always astounded we had BVP homers. He was fun to watch, a QB with a LB's attitude. I don't think I ever saw him throw a decent pass.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Because after Plummer we have crap and Plummer is in his thirties.

Weak. Yeah, Shanny traded up in the 1st round to 11th overall, giving up a 3rd round pick in the process just because he wanted backup for Jake. He had a backup for Jake in BVP last year. There were other less expensive ways to acquire another QB if Shanny simply wanted a back-up for Jake.

[listopencil]

You don't really believe that.


I'd be stupid to believe they drafted Cutler to get him ready for our Super Bowl run this year. I suppose that's what you believe?

[Clockwork Orange]

I'd be stupid to believe they drafted Cutler to get him ready for our Super Bowl run this year. I suppose that's what you believe?

Of course! We can win the Super bowl this year with a rookie QB! If you don't believe that then you just don't have any faith in Shanahan! Just ask TJ!

[Bob's your Information Minister]

You know why they drafted Cutler.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I'd be stupid to believe they drafted Cutler to get him ready for our Super Bowl run this year. I suppose that's what you believe?

and yet you believe Shanny moved up for Cutler just because he needed a backup for Jake

[listopencil]

Weak. Yeah, Shanny traded up in the 1st round to 11th overall, giving up a 3rd round pick in the process just because he wanted backup for Jake. He had a backup for Jake in BVP last year. There were other less expensive ways to acquire another QB if Shanny simply wanted a back-up for Jake.


So you are one of the people that believe they drafted Cutler to win the Super Bowl for us this year?

[SureShot]

6 In '06!

[listopencil]

and yet you believe Shanny moved up for Cutler just because he needed a backup for Jake



...and yet you believe Shanny moved up for Cutler to win the next Super Bowl for us.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

The overhaul on O didn't include the QB. Jake's still out there at the #1 spot. We drafted for the future in Cutler but cut and replaced the other guys mentioned. That's a big difference. Applying the same logic we would have gone FA for a QB, not draft.

No, it's not a big difference. Just because Cutler is not going to play this year does not mean that Shanahan did not overhaul the QB position as well. You said in this thread Jay was acquired because Denver needed a backup. Why didn't they go for a FA instead instead of investing a big amount in both draft picks and future money in a rookie to be just a backup? You can't even keep your arguments consistent in this thread. If they were drafting for the future, it means that Shanny doesn't believe Jake is the guy to elevate this team to the SB. Still could happen with him at QB though, I won't deny that. But if he was absolutely sold on Jake, they would have gone after Maroney, someone that could have helped out this year at a position they needed.

[SureShot]

Where's the BVP homers who wanted to waste a roster spot on him.

:giggle: :rofl: Hilarious!


No kidding. I didn't see alot of teams jumping in to sign him.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

So you are one of the people that believe they drafted Cutler to win the Super Bowl for us this year?

Yeah, I've said that. Why don't you go find a quote where I said the Cutler pick was to win the Super Bowl this year. This is even worse than your post that Jay was drafted because they needed a backup for Jake.

[listopencil]

No, it's not a big difference. Just because Cutler is not going to play this year does not mean that Shanahan did not overhaul the QB position as well. You said in this thread Jay was acquired because Denver needed a backup. Why didn't they go for a FA instead instead of investing a big amount in both draft picks and future money in a rookie to be just a backup? You can't even keep your arguments consistent in this thread. If they were drafting for the future, it means that Shanny doesn't believe Jake is the guy to elevate this team to the SB. Still could happen with him at QB though, I won't deny that. But if he was absolutely sold on Jake, they would have gone after Maroney, someone that could have helped out this year at a position they needed.


No, I said that we had crap behind Plummer and Plummer is in his thirties. Learn to read. Drafting a stud like Cutler gives us the best situation at QB. He can back up Plummer now and take the job himself when he is ready. You're so hell bent on bashing Plummer that you are misunderstanding my posts. Shanny said that it was an opportunity he couldn't pass up. It was a decision he had to make becuase an opportunity like that doesn't come around very often. It's better to take a player like Cutler and let the chips fall where they may. So, for right now, he can back up Plummer. That is his role. I'm sure the team hoped he would beat out BVP and he did. When he becomes the starter will depend on how fast he develops. I think it would be stupid to do it this year. I doubt that it happens next year. I think they will be battling it out the year after and that Cutler will win.

[listopencil]

Yeah, I've said that. Why don't you go find a quote where I said the Cutler pick was to win the Super Bowl this year. This is even worse than your post that Jay was drafted because they needed a backup for Jake.

...and yet that's what he is doing, isn't it? Backing up Plummer.


Because after Plummer we have crap and Plummer is in his thirties.

Read it again.

[MrPeepers]

I wouldn't mind him playing once we wrap up home field throughout :)

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Listo, c'mon man.

Cutler is not succeeding Plummer.

He's replacing him. There's a difference.

[listopencil]

Listo, c'mon man.

Cutler is not succeeding Plummer.

He's replacing him. There's a difference.


I hope he does. In time. But that time is not now, which was my earlier point. We overhauled our offense and didn't replace Plummer. Herc and others like him want to find a scapegoat for losing in the playoffs and have latched onto Plummer as the weak link of the entire organization. As if he's the only reason we haven't won a Super Bowl recently. The view is retarded.

[freak6]

http://www.cherokeeflyer.com/downloads/affcgfirstint.wmv

Ashley had the post. Jake should have let it fly.

Not Alexanders fault. He rounded his route, but it was a terrible read, he was covered, and Plummer floated it.

[Popps]

just want to see our real quarterback in there .

Really? A couple of pre-season games and you know he's our "real" QB, huh?

Someone needs to tell Shanahan it's time to step down. Taco can apparently evaluate QB talent better than the staff, and on just handful of pre-season series, no less!

[Popps]

Listo, c'mon man.

Cutler is not succeeding Plummer.

He's replacing him. There's a difference.

I love how the guy Taco's takes seem to line up the best with is a Chiefs fan.

[Popps]

This tired mantra by the Jake Bashers is getting pretty worn out. Yes, Elway went to the Super Bowl and lost when the teams weren't good enough to win it.

Oh man, here comes the slew of posts that are going to accuse you of comparing Elway's talents to Plummer's talents. Because, you know... you can't mention Elway's name within 2 threads (or two days, whichever comes first) of Plummer. Otherwise, you M U S T be saying Plummer is as good.

[Paladin]

Well, are you?

[Popps]

Well, are you?

LOL

[listopencil]

Oh man, here comes the slew of posts that are going to accuse you of comparing Elway's talents to Plummer's talents. Because, you know... you can't mention Elway's name within 2 threads (or two days, whichever comes first) of Plummer. Otherwise, you M U S T be saying Plummer is as good.

Oops...careful now...trying to hold it back...oh no, here it comes...


Elway threw INT's in the playoffs too.



Oh ****. The board is going to melt down now.

[Taco John]

Of course! We can win the Super bowl this year with a rookie QB! If you don't believe that then you just don't have any faith in Shanahan! Just ask TJ!



It only stands to reason that if Shanahan can win 13 games managing Jake's raggedy arm, he could manage the team to 13 wins with a guy who is capable of completing 60 yard passes for 80 yard touchdowns with pinpoint accuracy hitting receivers in stride... *dreaming of the last time we had that*

[Taco John]

Really? A couple of pre-season games and you know he's our "real" QB, huh?

Someone needs to tell Shanahan it's time to step down. Taco can apparently evaluate QB talent better than the staff, and on just handful of pre-season series, no less!

I didn't draft Cutler. I was pimping Lienart.

That said, you bet. I absolutely believe Cutler is the real deal, and I can't wait for the Cutler era to start.

[Popps]

It only stands to reason that if Shanahan can win 13 games managing Jake's raggedy

Shanahan thinks Plummer's arm is pretty good, apparently. But, he's probably lying about that.

Secondly, it absolutely does NOT stand to "reason" that a snot-nosed rookie could perform better than Jake has this year, or even next, for that matter.

You just bash him some scorned ex-boyfriend, but the guy's accomplishments stand on their own.

-.750 winning percentage
-2:1 TD/INT ratio
-89 QB average over 3 seasons
-Among least-sacked QB in NFL
-Team record yardage, team record (tie) TDs.
-Most passes thrown by a Bronco QB without an INT

So, you can get off one-liners about his arm, but as usual, you base your argument in your speculative opinion, while others base theirs in fact. Those facts are, Plummer has performed extremely well as our starter, and rookie QBs rarely fare well.

Seriously man, even the few minions you have around here have to be jumping ship on this one, if they didn't already on the "our defense was average" bit.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Hey, Taco...given the choice, would still take Leinart?

[Taco John]

Hey, Taco...given the choice, would still take Leinart?


Not after what I've seen from Jay. I'd have been thrilled with Leinart though. I think Jay and Leinart are the next incarnation of John and Dan.

I said it.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Hehe.

I agree with you. Cutler's some crazy shiat. Dunno who to compare Leinart to...not many famous lefties, and his arm isn't like Marino's.

[Clockwork Orange]

It only stands to reason that if Shanahan can win 13 games managing Jake's raggedy arm, he could manage the team to 13 wins with a guy who is capable of completing 60 yard passes for 80 yard touchdowns with pinpoint accuracy hitting receivers in stride... *dreaming of the last time we had that*

Yes, with a QB who has zero NFL experience, doesn't know the offense and has never seen NFL defenses.

You must be smarter than Shanahan, TJ. He doesn't seem to agree with you on this.

Oh no! Does this mean that you're *gasp* lacking faith in Shanahan?! Say it aint so!

[Clockwork Orange]

Not after what I've seen from Jay. I'd have been thrilled with Leinart though. I think Jay and Leinart are the next incarnation of John and Dan.

I said it.

Leinart's lack of mobility would have doomed him here. He'd have been a left handed version of Griese.

Arizona better build an O-line or it isn't gonna matter who they've got at the skill positions.

[24champ]

Not after what I've seen from Jay. I'd have been thrilled with Leinart though. I think Jay and Leinart are the next incarnation of John and Dan.

I said it.

that being said...how many championships did Dan win?

[BroncoSoja]

Plummer gets a little owie and misses a couple of games this season so you can see what Jay can do?

*Raises hand* I was one of those idiots that wanted Denver to go after Plummer when he was a FA.. But after seeing how our Offense is dumbed down with him back there and seeing that it wasnt Arizona that made him bad but vice versa, I quickly feel off the Plummer bandwagon.

I just dont think there is anyway we can win the SB with him back there, he just makes to many silly mistakes and he can't through the long ball with any accuracy.. Hell if it wasnt for our Defense agianst NE last year we would'nt even have made it to the AFC Championship game.

[RhymesayersDU]

vvvvvv

[Kaylore]

I agree.

[RhymesayersDU]

I agree.

BAD ASS @ Michael Bolton beating a horse. That owns.

[Cito Pelon]

Ya know, I don't think I've busted off a rant in a long time. So .. . . . nah, I don't think this is worth one at this time. Not about one player. I could easily go on a rant about the entire team's lack of intestinal fortitude come second season . . . . . .

[Popps]

Wow, you guys watching this Pittsburgh game?

Pittsburgh's offense came out flat again, and yet... their defense allowed no points.

Wow, now their offense got it going, and they're in the lead.

Amazing, huh?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Charlie Batch did a good job of not turning the ball over, too...

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Wow, you guys watching this Pittsburgh game?

Pittsburgh's offense came out flat again, and yet... their defense allowed no points.

Wow, now their offense got it going, and they're in the lead.

Amazing, huh?

It is amazing. I'm just curious how many times does the offense have to come out flat before we can start asking if there's problems on that side of the ball? Once? Twice? Three times? How about the fourth time? Can we question the offense if it comes out flat in four consecutive games? I'd think at that point, people should question whether everything is hunky doory on that side of the ball. If we don't question it, we just become one trick ponies who only talk about things like the defense not being perfect all the time and because of that, we shouldn't look at the problems on the offensive side of the ball.

[Popps]

It is amazing.

To you, perhaps. If you've watched enough football, particularly playoff football, you'll know that this is what championship defense do. They did it in the Superbowl, and they're doing it tonight.

we shouldn't look at the problems on the offensive side of the ball.

Of course we should. We just shouldn't expect our offense to come out flying against a championship defense, and if our defense can't match the opponent's defense's production, we'll lose... every time.

Pitt's offense came out flat tonight... again... and again... they're leading at half-time, just like the Superbowl.

Now, this is a Charlie-batch led offense against a VERY good Miami defense. Sub our offense in for Pitt's in this game, and tell me we wouldn't be up by 21 already.

That's called playoff football. Championship defenses protect their offenses, not the other way around. Again, it's the reason you'll see dozens of examples of defense-heavy champions, and only a few offense-heavy, and even those were pretty balanced. (St. Louis, Denver, etc.)

Point is, you've got a few people around here selling the idea that teams simply CAN'T win if their offense comes out flat.... obviously, that's bull****.

[Cito Pelon]

Wow, you guys watching this Pittsburgh game?

Pittsburgh's offense came out flat again, and yet... their defense allowed no points.

Wow, now their offense got it going, and they're in the lead.

Amazing, huh?

Give it a rest.

[Popps]

Give it a rest.

I'll make a decision on that on Sunday at around 1:00 pm, pacific.



:~ohyah!:

[Cito Pelon]

I'll make a decision on that on Sunday at around 1:00 pm, pacific.



:~ohyah!:

Just try to play it cool is all I ask.

[Popps]

Just try to play it cool is all I ask.

Sir, YES SIR!


8')

[No1BroncoFan]

seeing that it wasnt Arizona that made him bad but vice versa,
You've got to be fvcking kidding me. Arizona's one, count 'em, one playoff victory in fifty years or so came with Jake as the QB. The Broncos have not failed to make the playoffs since he arrived. Jake made Arizona bad? :rofl: Whatever...

Ben

[Florida_Bronco]

You've got to be fvcking kidding me. Arizona's one, count 'em, one playoff victory in fifty years or so came with Jake as the QB. The Broncos have not failed to make the playoffs since he arrived. Jake made Arizona bad? :rofl: Whatever...

Ben

Don't worry about him. He has some irrational hatred of Plummer and a couple other players. To top it off, he doesn't even know what the hell he's talking about.

[BroncoSoja]

Wow, you guys watching this Pittsburgh game?

Pittsburgh's offense came out flat again, and yet... their defense allowed no points.

Wow, now their offense got it going, and they're in the lead.

Amazing, huh?

How many INT's did their bone head QB through agian?

Some of you need to remember that if it wasnt for our DEFENSE, we would have never made it to the Pitt game.

[CBF1]

Guilty here.

No biggie though, I remember Elway missing a game or 4 in route to our 2nd Superbowl title.

[No1BroncoFan]

Don't worry about him. He has some irrational hatred of Plummer and a couple other players. To top it off, he doesn't even know what the hell he's talking about.
You know, any other team and you might be able to make the argument he tried to make. But Arizona? Hilarious! They are the laughing stock of the NFL and will be as long as the Bidwell's own them. New stadium? So what. New high calibre QB? Who cares? The Bidwell's will keep that organization in the crapper forever.

Ben

[24champ]

How many INT's did their bone head QB through agian?

Some of you need to remember that if it wasnt for our DEFENSE, we would have never made it to the Pitt game.

Who said it wasn't the defense that got us to the Pitt game?

[BroncoSoja]

Don't worry about him. He has some irrational hatred of Plummer and a couple other players. To top it off, he doesn't even know what the hell he's talking about.

Wrong I just have hate towards Plummer. As far as it being "irational" it's probably as as "irrational" as the Plummer man love that dribbles down the lips of almost every poster on this board.

Dont matter though cause one more year and you duds will be forced to see what a real QB good can do with a real good team. And your Plummer manlove can hit the road along with your boy.

[Clockwork Orange]

Wrong I just have hate towards Plummer. As far as it being "irational" it's probably as as "irrational" as the Plummer man love that dribbles down the lips of almost every poster on this board.

Dont matter though cause one more year and you duds will be forced to see what a real QB good can do with a real good team. And your Plummer manlove can hit the road along with your boy.

I guess that means we'll be rid of you too. The only time you ever show up to post is when you've got a case of the red ass over Jake Plummer. With him gone you'll have nothing whine about, thus no more of your asinine posts.

What a tragic loss that will be.

[No1BroncoFan]

Wrong I just have hate towards Plummer. As far as it being "irational" it's probably as as "irrational" as the Plummer man love that dribbles down the lips of almost every poster on this board.

Dont matter though cause one more year and you duds will be forced to see what a real QB good can do with a real good team. And your Plummer manlove can hit the road along with your boy.
It's amazing that anyone who considers Plummer to be somewhat better than awful has "man love" for him. Your hatred for him is irrational, but more importantly your hatred of your fellow Bronco fans is even more irrational. Jake was undoubtedly the best option we had to replace the true QB mistake this team made (Griese). Bash him all you want, but while you're at it, please tell me who was available that was a better choice than Plummer.

If Cutler is all he's touted to be when he earns the starting position you'll find no bigger supporter than me. I supported Griese until he proved that even Danny Kanel would be a better alternative. I've supported Jake and his .750 win percentage and when Cutler earns the spot I'll support him too. However, right now he is not the best option for this team. He's a raw rookie that still needs to learn his progressions. Loaded with raw talent, but still a raw rookie. He may not be the best option next year either (though he could be). Plummer will be here until Cutler beats him out. That's the way Shanny plays things.

Ben

[No1BroncoFan]

I guess that means we'll be rid of you too. The only time you ever show up to post is when you've got a case of the red ass over Jake Plummer. With him gone you'll have nothing whine about, thus no more of your asinine posts.

What a tragic loss that will be.
I'm sure he'll find another focus for his angst. Scapegoats are a dime-a-dozen.

Still laughing at that Jake made Arizona bad crap though. ;D

Ben

[Popps]

How many INT's did their bone head QB through agian?

Some of you need to remember that if it wasnt for our DEFENSE, we would have never made it to the Pitt game.

Well, in the Superbowl.. their "bonehead" QB threw an INT on their 5th drive, after punting on their first 4 drives. (Going 3-out on two.)

So, their "bonehead" threw an INT when the game was close... yet, their defense still stepped up so the offense could get on track.

Our defense allowed scores on Pitt's first FOUR drives, and Jake threw his pick at half-time when we were in desperation mode.

Quite different scenarios.

[Taco John]

I love how the guy Taco's takes seem to line up the best with is a Chiefs fan.



I'm pretty sure Herc is as big a Broncos fan as you or I.

[Kaylore]

This last draft was an indictment of our entire offense, not just Plummer. It would be hard to argue that the coaching staff felt the offense was sufficient given we spent just about every penny of our resources in securing offensive players.

I still think we need some players up front, but I've been upset about the declining talent on offense for some time and feel great about what they did to address that.

[Taco John]

Well, in the Superbowl.. their "bonehead" QB threw an INT on their 5th drive, after punting on their first 4 drives. (Going 3-out on two.)

So, their "bonehead" threw an INT when the game was close... yet, their defense still stepped up so the offense could get on track.

Our defense allowed scores on Pitt's first FOUR drives, and Jake threw his pick at half-time when we were in desperation mode.

Quite different scenarios.



Actually, to be clear, and to make a point about said bonehead... The score tonight at halftime was 14-10. A four point difference. One touchdown.

If Jake hadn't have thrown that boneheaded interception before halftime, and instead took the opportunity to lead the team on a scoring drive, the score would have been 17-10. One touchdown.

The defense surely should have held Pittsburgh to fewer points. But given how badly the offense choked that day giving away the field position battle, you have to cut them the same amount of leeway you cut for Jake's fumbles when you blame them on the offensive linemen, and not the tiny-handed Plummer, right? But yeah...

The Steelers scored only 13 points on drives originating from their own side of the field.

[Popps]

This last draft was an indictment of our entire offense, not just Plummer. It would be hard to argue that the coaching staff felt the offense was sufficient given we spent just about every penny of our resources in securing offensive players.

I still think we need some players up front, but I've been upset about the declining talent on offense for some time and feel great about what they did to address that.

It's a cyclical thing, too. We spent the last two off-seasons shoring up the defense. (Theoretically) So, certainly they saw a great opportunity in Cutler, but they also can't ONLY focus on defense every year. They were bound to address some of the offensive holes, too. I don't think either necessarily supports what the staff thinks is the "real" problem THIS year. (Or last year when it was defense.)

It's fairly obvious that they thought we had holes on both sides.

Now, if the staff would only pay the level of seriousness to the d-line that they have the CB, WR and QB position, we'd be in business.

[Taco John]

This last draft was an indictment of our entire offense, not just Plummer.

This, I COMPLETELY agree with. But there are those who don't see it as an indictment of Plummer AT ALL. Which is why this is even a discussion at all. I still feel we'd have been better off with one more playmaker out there against Pittsburgh, which is why I was crazy enough to support the idea to bring in TO. Thank the Lord that Javon Walker was able to be taken for a second. What a steal!

[Popps]

.. and for the record, I was probably the biggest proponent on this forum of the Walker trade, in the face of major opposition from most who have since clammed up.

I love the Cutler pick, too. If we can improve at any position, or even set ourselves up for later.. I'm all for it.

My point that parallel to those great offensive moves, should have been some great defensive moves.

[Popps]

Thank the Lord that Javon Walker was able to be taken for a second. What a steal!

We agree on that... that's for sure. What a massive boost that'll be to this offense.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

.. and for the record, I was probably the biggest proponent on this forum of the Walker trade


No one else was willing to start a thread saying they'd give up the 15th pick for him

[Kaylore]

I think it's obvious that Cutler is Plummers ticket out of town. Part of my frustration was that his production was limited by the players around him. It was plain to me that we were woefully under-talented on the offensive side of the ball. We had no speed and were only getting older. I like all the guys we brought in and I think it will help. Unfortunately I'm out of patience for Plummer. He has no execuses this year so anything short of a real pro-bowl performance will have me in the "dump Plummer" camp, unless he wants to stay and backup Cutler, which we all know he won't.

Next year, I hope we go safety, Defensive end, Defensive tackle and maybe a project left tackle. The rest we can draft projects and filler, and if Jeff Garcia is available, bring him in and backup Cutler.

One way to keep Plummer here is to have the competition "open" next year and win Cutler "wins" the starting job on opening day, Jake sits for the season. That'd be nice.

[usedupbraids]

the only reason we got cutler its because of last years lost vs pitts , everyone put the blam on jake but it was or D that cost us the game not jake.Cutler should start next year jake took us to the AFC chip thats pertty good,im starting to become a cutler groupie tho start cutler next year this is jakes year

[Clockwork Orange]

Next year, I hope we go safety, Defensive end, Defensive tackle and maybe a project left tackle. The rest we can draft projects and filler, and if Jeff Garcia is available, bring him in and backup Cutler.

I'm in the camp of drafting the BPA at either DE, S or RB. Whichever position has the BPA, take that guy.

[Clockwork Orange]

.. and for the record, I was probably the biggest proponent on this forum of the Walker trade, in the face of major opposition from most who have since clammed up.

Ahem. (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=39564) :yayaya:

[Popps]

One way to keep Plummer here is to have the competition "open" next year and win Cutler "wins" the starting job on opening day, Jake sits for the season. That'd be nice.

Taco actually said one thing that made sense about this situation... there will be NO chance of fair competition for Plummer next season. Not in the city of Denver, where QB expectations are absolutely off the charts. Your opinion of Plummer aside, teams like Miami and Chicago would kill for the kind of QB production we've had, whether it's partly the system or not.

But, we drafted Jay high... and the pressure from the media and fans is going to be on. If Shanahan goes with Jake over Jay, he'll be facing intense scrutiny.. and think about it, if Jake plays well, but makes one mistake that matters, Shanahan will get ROASTED alive. If Jay plays mediocre and makes a ton of mistakes that lose us games... well, that's just a rookie learning the ropes.

Shanahan would have to feel that Jake is twice as good as Jay, or more... as he'd be staking his reputation on him, and that's just not going to happen.

Plummer hasn't cost us a game since 2004. He's been a PART of bad performances, in particular... he's played poorly after the team has gotten in a hole. But, he can play flawless all this year... win Superbowl MVP, and will still face a massive uphill battle to win the starting gig. Logical or not, that's what we're looking at.

So, fast forward two... three years. Cutler will be the man. I'll have his jersey... the offense will be powerful, as always. But, will we have a true championship caliber defense? The kind that took Miami apart tonight despite their own offense coming out very flat?

Look, I'd love to be wrong about this. I'd love it if Jay Cutler could take this team on his back and win it in spite of complete first half defensive collapses in the playoffs. A win is a win. That's just never been how football is played, and I don't expect those rules to change any time soon.

[Cito Pelon]

This last draft was an indictment of our entire offense, not just Plummer. It would be hard to argue that the coaching staff felt the offense was sufficient given we spent just about every penny of our resources in securing offensive players.

I still think we need some players up front, but I've been upset about the declining talent on offense for some time and feel great about what they did to address that.

I agree. The O has to be able to move the chains against the great D's. It's just as important as having a D that can stop the chains from moving. And oh yeah, the return game is pretty nice to have. A team can look pretty bad in the playoffs if they don't have a solid three-phase team.

[BroncoSoja]

he only reason we got cutler its because of last years lost vs pitts , everyone put the blam on jake but it was or D that cost us the game not jake.

Thats crazy, Rewatch the NE game and see how ineffective Plummer was agianst NE, they shut down our Run game and dared Plummer to beat them hell even move the ball agianst them.. If it wasnt for our D handing Plummer and the rest of the offense the ball deep in NE territory and our defense playing very well, we would have been beaten badly in that game. Take away the Pitt game and that leaves you with this one, which would be evidence enough we needed to do something at QB.

As far as the Pitt game your nuts, sure our defense played pretty bad in the first half. But we were pretty close untill Plummer tossed that Pick at the end of that half... Also in the 3rd quarter when our defense showed signs of life what did Plummer do? He came out and threw the damn game away on the very next play thats what. Plummer dug his own hole and did as many expected him to do, he transformed into the old Jack that many said he would. He took responsiblity for the lose and well he should.

It still amazes me how some of you think that Plummer is not the main reason we lost that Pitt game. With the exception of G. Foster, noone came close to playing as poorly as Jake did throughout the whole game.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . But, will we have a true championship caliber defense? The kind that took Miami apart tonight despite their own offense coming out very flat. . . . .. .

You'll have to wait and see. Criminy, relax. The roster is set, the coaching staff is set. The team will have a decent year, they'll probably win the Div, that means a playoff berth. Turn it up then if they still don't make your standards.

[Clockwork Orange]

I agree. The O has to be able to move the chains against the great D's. It's just as important as having a D that can stop the chains from moving. And oh yeah, the return game is pretty nice to have. A team can look pretty bad in the playoffs if they don't have a solid three-phase team.

Then going by recent history, perhaps the overhaul in the areas of need on defense will be the agenda for next offseason. Check it out.

2004: Traded for Sauerbrun, brought back Keith Burns and drafted Darrent Williams (his main contributions were supposed to be as a return man before he played his way into a starting spot at CB).

2005: Drafted Cutler & Scheffler, traded for Javon Walker.

I guess that makes it pretty obvious what the next logical step would be. :pray:

[usedupbraids]

Thats crazy, Rewatch the NE game and see how ineffective Plummer was agianst NE, they shut down our Run game and dared Plummer to beat them hell even move the ball agianst them.. If it wasnt for our D handing Plummer and the rest of the offense the ball deep in NE territory and our defense playing very well, we would have been beaten badly in that game. Take away the Pitt game and that leaves you with this one, which would be evidence enough we needed to do something at QB.

As far as the Pitt game your nuts, sure our defense played pretty bad in the first half. But we were pretty close untill Plummer tossed that Pick at the end of that half... Also in the 3rd quarter when our defense showed signs of life what did Plummer do? He came out and threw the damn game away on the very next play thats what. Plummer dug his own hole and did as many expected him to do, he transformed into the old Jack that many said he would. He took responsiblity for the lose and well he should.

It still amazes me how some of you think that Plummer is not the main reason we lost that Pitt game. With the exception of G. Foster, noone came close to playing as poorly as Jake did throughout the whole game.

Good but we still should start jake , cutler doesnt know the playbook well i rather be 13-3 with jake then 9-7 with cutler

[SureShot]

One way to keep Plummer here is to have the competition "open" next year and win Cutler "wins" the starting job on opening day, Jake sits for the season. That'd be nice.


I was under the impression that Plummer's salary escalates in the final option year. If that is so I say trade him after this year, and use that money to sign dlinemen.

As far as my expectations for plummer, he has no excuses. Last years "no mistake Jake" is not good enough.

6n06

[Kaylore]

Taco actually said one thing that made sense about this situation... there will be NO chance of fair competition for Plummer next season. Not in the city of Denver, where QB expectations are absolutely off the charts. Your opinion of Plummer aside, teams like Miami and Chicago would kill for the kind of QB production we've had, whether it's partly the system or not.

But, we drafted Jay high... and the pressure from the media and fans is going to be on. If Shanahan goes with Jake over Jay, he'll be facing intense scrutiny.. and think about it, if Jake plays well, but makes one mistake that matters, Shanahan will get ROASTED alive. If Jay plays mediocre and makes a ton of mistakes that lose us games... well, that's just a rookie learning the ropes.


That's a surprising post from you, Popps. Shanahan plays who he thinks will help him win, media and draft choices be damned. This is a guy that drafted Maruice Clarett. To suggest that the media pushing him will be a factor in his decision to start doesn't Jay with years of past Mastermind behavior.

Cutler will start because he's better and because he will open up our offense. I don't know how anyone can watch both players and not see how much more talented Cutler is than Jake. Cutler is more accurate now than Jake, the ten year vet going on four years in our system with an existing chemistry with the receivers, has been. Remember HE ran a Vanilla offense too and Jay out executed him.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . . I guess that makes it pretty obvious what the next logical step would be. :pray:

Agreed. The team is gonna have to make the most of what they have this year. The roster is set. If this team and staff is good, they go on a playoff roll. If not, well, you can't win 'em all.

[Taco John]

So, fast forward two... three years. Cutler will be the man. I'll have his jersey... the offense will be powerful, as always. But, will we have a true championship caliber defense? The kind that took Miami apart tonight despite their own offense coming out very flat?



You're right about that... The Pittsburgh offense came out very flat. In fact, I couldn't tell the difference between Charlie Batch and Jake Plummer the way he played tonight. Except that Batch threw three touchdowns and zero interceptions. Aside from that... I couldn't tell the difference. 15 for 25 for 209 yards... Those are Jake-esque numbers.

[DivineLegion]

question is who will be our backup next year and who do we trade Plummer for???

[Clockwork Orange]

You're right about that... The Pittsburgh offense came out very flat. In fact, I couldn't tell the difference between Charlie Batch and Jake Plummer the way he played tonight. Except that Batch threw three touchdowns and zero interceptions. Aside from that... I couldn't tell the difference.

::)

Move along, nothing but the same old TJ bull**** to see here.

[Taco John]

::)

Move along, nothing but the same old TJ bull**** to see here.


heh. Seriously. Shanahan could win with Charlie Batch. We'd call him "No Choke Charlie" during his third year with Shanahan. :wiggle:

[Clockwork Orange]

heh. Seriously. Shanahan could win with Charlie Batch. We'd call him "No Choke Charlie" during his third year with Shanahan. :wiggle:

And if they didn't, you'd mindlessly heap the blame on him just as you do with Plummer.

[Taco John]

And if they didn't, you'd mindlessly heap the blame on him just as you do with Plummer.



Well, if he threw the game away at 17-3, during a high pressure drive that we needed him to pull the game to 17-10, then yes... yes I would.

Of course, the defense shouldn't have let the Steelers get 17 points in the first place. But that doesn't give Jake permission to throw the game away at home. If we'd have gone in that locker room 17-10, I believe we'd have won that game... Provided, of course, Plummer doesn't throw that second interception down the road.

But what is, is... We didn't win that game, and the lingering pain from it still haunts us. Maybe the fourth time is a charm.

[Clockwork Orange]

Well, if he threw the game away at 17-3, during a high pressure drive that we needed him to pull the game to 17-10, then yes... yes I would.

Of course, the defense shouldn't have let the Steelers get 17 points in the first place. But that doesn't give Jake permission to throw the game away at home. If we'd have gone in that locker room 17-10, I believe we'd have won that game... Provided, of course, Plummer doesn't throw that second interception down the road.

But what is, is... We didn't win that game, and the lingering pain from it still haunts us. Maybe the fourth time is a charm.

The lingering pain seems to haunt you more than most. Yet you've found a creative outlet for it, using it as fuel for your anti-Plummer campaign. Good on you.

Congrats on finally at least acknowledging the fact that the defense deserves their own portion of the blame for that loss. Now if you'll just go back and watch Lepsis & Foster's "performance" in that game, maybe you'll eventually find a way to dish out the criticism deservedly.

Or not. You can always just keep piling it on Plummer, it's certainly easier and requires a lot less thought.