OK fess up how many of you secretly hope....

[-Slap-]

You're right about that... The Pittsburgh offense came out very flat. In fact, I couldn't tell the difference between Charlie Batch and Jake Plummer the way he played tonight. Except that Batch threw three touchdowns and zero interceptions. Aside from that... I couldn't tell the difference. 15 for 25 for 209 yards... Those are Jake-esque numbers.

Shanahan wanted Batch coming out of college and settled for Griese.

0-2 on that go around.

[Taco John]

Hey, I was all for laying the blame on the defense until Plummer threw that horrible pick at 17-3, when we could have gone into the locker room 17-10.

Lepsis's performance during that game was fine. Foster, not so much. Alexander... That guy couldn't stop Porter to save his life. But none of that matters when it comes to that 17-3 choke of an interception. There was fine protection and an open receiver downfield. Plummer just forced a ball to a covered receiver.

I'm more than willing to criticize the rest of the offense for their role. Even though Plummer's tiny hands fumbled the ball, he was under duress, giving the defense a short field. I've already acknowledged that Plummer shouldn't be blamed for the fumbles. The offensive line should absorb both of them. But I don't see any of you Plummer Protectors proffering the same pardon for the defense having to protect a short field for most of the game.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I am taking that loss harder than other people are. I can't help myself there. I've gotten physically ill after particularly painful losses before. Apparently my immune system gets despondent... :sigh:

[Taco John]

Shanahan wanted Batch coming out of college and settled for Griese.

0-2 on that go around.

Batch would have at least been more mobile than Griese.

I'm not kidding, though, about Plummer and Batch looking alike out there though. I first noticed it when he was scrambling. The 16, of course looks familiar... But it's more than that. Watch for it next week and let me know if you agree.

[lazarus4444]

Guilty as charged. I have never had confidence in Plummer. I started to have some last year until the steelers came to town. I propose a no confidence vote to get plummer out of office :pimp:

[freak6]

I saw it during the game. Right after that pick there was a sideline shot and Shanny was tearing into Alexander.


You mean Plummer right, lol.

[Clockwork Orange]

Hey, I was all for laying the blame on the defense until Plummer threw that horrible pick at 17-3, when we could have gone into the locker room 17-10.

Lepsis's performance during that game was fine. Foster, not so much. Alexander... That guy couldn't stop Porter to save his life. But none of that matters when it comes to that 17-3 choke of an interception. There was fine protection and an open receiver downfield. Plummer just forced a ball to a covered receiver.

I'm more than willing to criticize the rest of the offense for their role. Even though Plummer's tiny hands fumbled the ball, he was under duress, giving the defense a short field. I've already acknowledged that Plummer shouldn't be blamed for the fumbles. The offensive line should absorb both of them. But I don't see any of you Plummer Protectors proffering the same pardon for the defense having to protect a short field for most of the game.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I am taking that loss harder than other people are. I can't help myself there. I've gotten physically ill after particularly painful losses before. Apparently my immune system gets despondent... :sigh:

So despite admitting all of that, you're still placing the bulk of the blame at Plummer's feet for a pick he threw when they were already in a 17-3 hole? Sorry, that just comes across as ridiculous. Just about as ridiculous as putting one of the Indy losses on Plummer for throwing a pick when the Broncos were already down 14-3 and the defense hadn't come close to stopping the Colts and wouldn't the entire game.

Maybe if the defense hadn't put them in that hole, Plummer wouldn't have been pressing and wouldn't have made that throw. See? Two can play that game.

[-Slap-]

Batch would have at least been more mobile than Griese.

I'm not kidding, though, about Plummer and Batch looking alike out there though. I first noticed it when he was scrambling. The 16, of course looks familiar... But it's more than that. Watch for it next week and let me know if you agree.

Batch was too fragile to succeed as a full time starter.

[Clockwork Orange]

Batch was too fragile to succeed as a full time starter.

Sounds pretty similar to who Shanahan settled for instead of Batch.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

[freak6]

So despite admitting all of that, you're still placing the bulk of the blame at Plummer's feet for a pick he threw when they were already in a 17-3 hole? Sorry, that just comes across as ridiculous.

http://www.cherokeeflyer.com/downloads/affcgfirstint.wmv

Clockwork, watch this play. Why does Jake float it to slow ass Alexander who had a fast corner in Zone on that side? How is blaming Plummer for taking a 14 point deficit, and turning into a 21 pt deficet ridiculous???

Stupid read, poor throw. That is Jakes fault. You don't "Take that risk" as Phil Simms says.

Ashley was one on one will Troy Palumalu, MISMATCH, but not with Jake's arm!!!

[Kaylore]

Sounds pretty similar to who Shanahan settled for instead of Batch.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

And Batch's arm is better.

[Clockwork Orange]

http://www.cherokeeflyer.com/downloads/affcgfirstint.wmv

Clockwork, watch this play. Why does Jake float it to slow ass Alexander who had a fast corner in Zone on that side?

Stupid read, poor throw. That is Jakes fault. You don't "Take that risk" as Phil Simms says.

Ashley was one on one will Troy Palumalu, MISMATCH, but not with Jake's arm!!!

So your rebuttal is to point to one play too? You and TJ should get together and go bowling or something.

Of course that was Jake's fault, no one has ever denied that. Where it gets ridiculous is when people start trying to pin the loss of the game on that one play.

[Taco John]

So despite admitting all of that, you're still placing the bulk of the blame at Plummer's feet for a pick he threw when they were already in a 17-3 hole? Sorry, that just comes across as ridiculous. Just about as ridiculous as putting one of the Indy losses on Plummer for throwing a pick when the Broncos were already down 14-3 and the defense hadn't come close to stopping the Colts and wouldn't the entire game.

Maybe if the defense hadn't put them in that hole, Plummer wouldn't have been pressing and wouldn't have made that throw. See? Two can play that game.

Yeah, because I'm sick of it. I'm sick of seeing us get down knowing that Plummer isn't capbable of keeping composure and giving us a chance to correct the ship. I'm sick of losing the field position battle. I'm sick of interceptions in post season games. You act like 17-3 and the game is over... It wasn't. Our offense had a shot at putting the game within reach, and JAKE choked again. It was his defining moment as a Bronco as far as I'm concerned. It was his "Griese vs. the Raiders" moment where it was time to prove what he was made of, and he choked. We needed to go into the locker room with at least a touchdown to give this team some confidence. Instead, Jake handed the Steelers another score, and people wet themselves about how terrible the defense was without considering that they TWICE had to deal with trying to stop a playoff calibre team on the short field. SURE they gave up a full field drive. So what? That happens in every game. We should be able to recover from a full field touchdown by going out and executing one of our own.

We could have gone into the locker room 17-10. Hardly a game out of reach. Then the Steelers came out and put together an 11 play drive that stalled out on the Denver 40. At that point, the world is our oyster. We're at home, down one touchdown after having a bad, but not disasterous first half. But instead, Jake choked when the pressure was on for him to lead the way and make something happen for this team. He might as well be Michael Dean Perry throwing that interception at that time as far as I'm concerned.

Did other parts of this team let us down? Absolutely they did. But Plummer hammered the nail in the coffin when it was time to show what he was made of. It's the same story every time. Plummer just doesn't have the mettle it takes to win when the pressure is on and the chips are down. And that's why I'm so hard on him.

[freak6]

Of course that was Jake's fault, no one has ever denied that. Where it gets ridiculous is when people start trying to pin the loss of the game on that one play.

You don't think that boneheaded play helped lead to the loss? It cost us 7 points, and crushed our teams spirits. Momemtum counts. It was a chance to build some going into the half. Nope, instead of down 14, were now down 21, a hopeless amount of points to come back from. A team needs to know that they have a chance to win. Well we did outscore them in the 4th quarter 7-3, but with that pick that led to 7 in the last minute of the 2nd, it was a wash.

What about that play combined with the 2nd pick? Mike Anderson was wide open in the right flat for a 10 yard gain at least. Jake forced it into triple coverage.

That is why Taco blames Jake. Jake got us BLOWN OUT at home in the AFC Championship. It could have been a competitive winnable game, even with how bad our team played. But Jake blew it, c'est la vie.

Watch the video. http://www.cherokeeflyer.com/downloads/affcgsecondint.wmv

[Taco John]

And Batch's arm is better.



I wonder how Batch scored on the wonderlick... ;)

[Clockwork Orange]

Yeah, because I'm sick of it. I'm sick of seeing us get down knowing that Plummer isn't capbable of keeping composure and giving us a chance to correct the ship. I'm sick of losing the field position battle. I'm sick of interceptions in post season games. You act like 17-3 and the game is over... It wasn't. Our offense had a shot at putting the game within reach, and JAKE choked again. It was his defining moment as a Bronco as far as I'm concerned. It was his "Griese vs. the Raiders" moment where it was time to prove what he was made of, and he choked. We needed to go into the locker room with at least a touchdown to give this team some confidence. Instead, Jake handed the Steelers another score, and people wet themselves about how terrible the defense was without considering that they TWICE had to deal with trying to stop a playoff calibre team on the short field. SURE they gave up a full field drive. So what? That happens in every game. We should be able to recover from a full field touchdown by going out and executing one of our own.

We could have gone into the locker room 17-10. Hardly a game out of reach. Then the Steelers came out and put together an 11 play drive that stalled out on the Denver 40. At that point, the world is our oyster. We're at home, down one touchdown after having a bad, but not disasterous first half. But instead, Jake choked when the pressure was on for him to lead the way and make something happen for this team. He might as well be Michael Dean Perry throwing that interception at that time as far as I'm concerned.

Did other parts of this team let us down? Absolutely they did. But Plummer hammered the nail in the coffin when it was time to show what he was made of. It's the same story every time. Plummer just doesn't have the mettle it takes to win when the pressure is on and the chips are down. And that's why I'm so hard on him.

Same old, same old. It's OK for the defense to spot an opponent a two touchdown lead and the blame belongs to Plummer for not being able to dig them out of it. Got it. That's been pretty much your line every year in the playoffs. This circular discussion is going nowhere yet again. Big surprise.

Just let me know if you plan to lead the charge of people who scream for Cutler to start every time something goes wrong this season. If you are, I'll just take a hiatus from this place until it's time to talk free agency/draft.

[Clockwork Orange]

You don't think that boneheaded play helped lead to the loss? It cost us 7 points, and crushed our teams spirits. Momemtum counts. It was a chance to build some going into the half. Nope, instead of down 14, were now down 21, a hopeless amount of points to come back from.

What about that play combined with the 2nd pick? Mike Anderson was wide open in the right flat for a 10 yard gain at least. Jake forced it into triple coverage.

That is why Taco blames Jake.

Watch the video. http://www.cherokeeflyer.com/downloads/affcgsecondint.wmv

Got any highlights of the defense failing to get off the field on 3rd down? Or of Foster & Lepsis getting owned? Or of the coaching staff inexplicably abandoning the run completely even when the game was still very much within reach?

Those are all just as valid as pointing to Plummer's interceptions, yet somehow they get conveniently overlooked.

[lazarus4444]

Clockwork, i see your point. But the problem is a lot of bronco fans have ZERO confidence in plummer. I can see it in the way he walks on the field that even he is not confident. We need somebody with the upmost confidence as our QB. Is plummer that guy? Well, we're stuck with him this year. Is cutler that guy? Too soon to tell. I can honestly see Cutler taking over mid season this year. This discussion is no reason for you to take a hiatus. We all bleed orange afterall. We're like siblings fighting over nothing. Fact of the matter is, the snake is our guy this year no matter how badly some of us want a change. But, our need for a change is not rational, its irrational. But, its based off of CONFIDENCE.

I don't think jake has true confidence. LIke i said, you can see it in how he walks. Hopefully this year we'll make the playoffs, brutal schedule. I worry after our D Line, Jake and our RB's. We're good at LB, secondary and O-line. Can always use better special teams. Here is to a good year.

[Taco John]

Same old, same old. It's OK for the defense to spot an opponent a two touchdown lead and the blame belongs to Plummer for not being able to dig them out of it. Got it. That's been pretty much your line every year in the playoffs. This circular discussion is going nowhere yet again. Big surprise.

Same old, same old... Blame the defense for spotting the other team a two touchdown lead without bothering to mention that the offense choked away the field position battle and forced them to defend the short field all game long (they held the Steelers to 13 points when they started from their own side of the field though) I don't blame Plummer for the entire loss. I blame him for his part in the choke job... or more aptly... each choke job he's had in each playoff loss we've had.

I'd love to sit here and be able to defend Jake by saying, "yeah, what about THIS game where he fought all game long without throwing an interception but everybody else let him down!" Man, I love to make arguments like that for players. But that's not what's happening here. Jake has choked in every playoff game he's appeared in for us. And I'm sick of it.

I'm more than willing to give Jake all the space he needs during the regular season. I *wish* we were starting Cutler, I won't lie. I believe we could win it all with him, given the miraculous work Shanahan has done with Jake. But Jake, up to this point, has proven that he's capable in the regular season (pardoning, of course, his late 2004 choke job). So I'm all for letting him start one more year. But I'm not confused about my expectations for him once the playoffs roll around. I'm not convinced he can get through a playoff game without turning the ball over when the pressure starts to rise. That wouldn't be the end of the world if I thought he could battle back from it.

[freak6]

Or of the coaching staff inexplicably abandoning the run completely even when the game was still very much within reach?

Those are all just as valid as pointing to Plummer's interceptions.

We didn't abandon the run, the run was getting stuffed every down. The coaching staff of the Steelers forced Shanny to call pass plays. The run was going no where.

The Steelers coaching staff put the offense on Jake's shoulders, making him the playmaker, and the decision maker. Smart, because Jake will often times make terrible reads under pressure, and did twice leading to 2 terrible reads, and terrible picks.

Now.

You pay a QB to throw accurate passes to open recievers. Plummer failed in that regard terribly. Those interceptions were all on Plummer. He obviously cannot make good reads of a zone defense. His best plays and only real good passes come on play action passes that get a WR isolated, or on quick slants.

He is not a good dropback passer. Largely because the deep reciever that is used to open up the middle of the field, Jake doesn't have the arm to hit, and teams cheat behind deep recievers on any straight up pass play.

Those picks by the individual player Jake Plummer crushed all chances of coming back in that game. With Mile High Magic, there is no telling what could have happened. But Jake Plummer down 21 pts instead of 14 at the half, fax it in.

[Clockwork Orange]

Clockwork, i see your point. But the problem is a lot of bronco fans have ZERO confidence in plummer. I can see it in the way he walks on the field that even he is not confident. We need somebody with the upmost confidence as our QB. Is plummer that guy? Well, we're stuck with him this year. Is cutler that guy? Too soon to tell. I can honestly see Cutler taking over mid season this year. This discussion is no reason for you to take a hiatus. We all bleed orange afterall. We're like siblings fighting over nothing. Fact of the matter is, the snake is our guy this year no matter how badly some of us want a change. But, our need for a change is not rational, its irrational. But, its based off of CONFIDENCE.

I don't think jake has true confidence. LIke i said, you can see it in how he walks. Hopefully this year we'll make the playoffs, brutal schedule. I worry after our D Line, Jake and our RB's. We're good at LB, secondary and O-line. Can always use better special teams. Here is to a good year.

I respect your opinion and I understand that a lot of people have no confidence in Plummer. A lot of people have had no confidence in him since the day he was signed.

I think Jake has plenty of confidence, he just doesn't have the physical gifts or the mental makeup of someone like Cutler. That's probably why no one has ever considered Plummer to be a upper tier QB in this league. But he has been good enough to get us to the playoffs and get us a win there for the first time since Elway retired. He must have something going for him to accomplish that much, especially considering that a lot of people thought he'd crash and burn here.

Next year this will all be moot. Cutler will take the reigns and it'll be a new era. Until then, it's going to be a lot of circle jerks like this thread. Same as it ever was.

[Clockwork Orange]

We didn't abandon the run, the run was getting stuffed every down. The coaching staff of the Steelers forced Shanny to call pass plays. The run was going no where.

The Steelers coaching staff put the offense on Jake's shoulders, making him the playmaker, and the decision maker. Smart, because Jake will often times make terrible reads under pressure, and did twice leading to 2 terrible reads, and terrible picks.

Now.

You pay a QB to throw accurate passes to open recievers. Plummer failed in that regard terribly. Those interceptions were all on Plummer. He obviously cannot make good reads of a zone defense. His best plays and only real good passes come on play action passes that get a WR isolated, or on quick slants.

He is not a good dropback passer. Largely because the deep reciever that is used to open up the middle of the field, Jake doesn't have the arm to hit, and teams cheat behind deep recievers on any straight up pass play.

Those picks by the individual player Jake Plummer crushed all chances of coming back in that game. With Mile High Magic, there is no telling what could have happened. But Jake Plummer down 21 pts instead of 14 at the half, fax it in.

Bull****.

Anderson carried the ball a whopping 9 times for 36 yards with a long run of 7 yards. Bell carried it all of 5 times for 31 yards with his long run being 11 yards. That's a grand total of 14 run plays for 67 yards, an average of 4.8 yards per carry.

Don't give me this garbage about how the run was being stuffed because that's just not true.

[Taco John]

A lot of people have had no confidence in him since the day he was signed.


I don't buy that at all. I think that a good majority of the fan base believed that Jake's troubles were because of Arizona, and figured he'd turn his act around here. Certainly, nobody expected that he'd come to Denver and continue to have 20 interception seasons. In fact, I can't think of one person who even said as much.

Jake lost a lot of confidence from this fanbase during his collapse in late 2004. Prior to that collapse, everybody was riding shotgun with the guy. You couldn't find a bad thing said about him if you tried in August-November of 2004.

[2KBack]

We didn't abandon the run, the run was getting stuffed every down. The coaching staff of the Steelers forced Shanny to call pass plays. The run was going no where.

Actually Denver was averaging almost 5 yards a carry.

[Clockwork Orange]

I don't buy that at all. I think that a good majority of the fan base believed that Jake's troubles were because of Arizona, and figured he'd turn his act around here. Certainly, nobody expected that he'd come to Denver and continue to have 20 interception seasons. In fact, I can't think of one person who even said as much.

Jake lost a lot of confidence from this fanbase during his collapse in late 2004. Prior to that collapse, everybody was riding shotgun with the guy. You couldn't find a bad thing said about him if you tried in August-November of 2004.

TJ, you don't live here in Colorado, I do. You weren't here to listen to the callers to the local sports talk radio shows or to talk to the wide array of fans that I did. Believe me, there were a lot of people who hated the signing of Plummer and believed that he'd actually be worse for this team than Griese was.

Whether you want to believe that or not is up to you, but it happened.

[Taco John]

TJ, you don't live here in Colorado, I do. You weren't here to listen to the callers to the local sports talk radio shows or to talk to the wide array of fans that I did. Believe me, there were a lot of people who hated the signing of Plummer and believed that he'd actually be worse for this team than Griese was.

Whether you want to believe that or not is up to you, but it happened.

You're right. I don't have the opportunity to listen to a lot of Colorado sports talk, especially in 2003. All I can speak for is what I've experienced on this board, which I personally consider the most intelligent and well informed place to get Broncos opinions, even if I'm a little biased... and even if we're all as crazy as we are.

[Clockwork Orange]

You're right. I don't have the opportunity to listen to a lot of Colorado sports talk, especially in 2003. All I can speak for is what I've experienced on this board, which I personally consider the most intelligent and well informed place to get Broncos opinions, even if I'm a little biased... and even if we're all as crazy as we are.

While this board is a great place to get info and opinions, it's far too small of a sample size to gauge the general opinion of Bronco fans everywhere.

A lot of fans didn't like Plummer when he was signed and nothing short of a Super Bowl win was/is going to change that. Now those people, much like you, are counting the days until Cutler takes over.

[freak6]

Actually Denver was averaging almost 5 yards a carry.

You got me there, but it wasn't moving the chains. You can't run the ball EVERY down. Jake in the first qtr wasn't so bad, the fumble wasn't on him.

But after the opposition is up 14 pts in the first half, with just 2 minutes to the half, you can't throw another pick and give them that kind of field position to pile on more points, when you have only managed 3 pts, and they are having success!!!

Once down 21, I guess C.O. expected us to go double TE still and run the ball alot more?

Mike Shannahan, super genius, decided to put the ball in his QBs hands, DOH.

Just proved my point!!!!

[Clockwork Orange]

You got me there, but it wasn't moving the chains. You can't run the ball EVERY down. Jake in the first qtr wasn't so bad, the fumble wasn't on him.

But after the opposition is up 14 pts in the first half, with just 2 minutes to the half, you can't throw another pick and give them that kind of field position to pile on more points, when you have only managed 3 pts, and they are having success!!!

Once down 21, I guess C.O. expected us to go double TE still and run the ball alot more?

Mike Shannahan, super genius, decided to put the ball in his QBs hands, DOH.

Just proved my point!!!!

Averaging 4.8 yards per carry wasn't moving the chains? Did they change the rules to 20 yards for a 1st down instead of 10?

And hey, maybe if the defense hadn't put them in a 14 point hole, they wouldn't have needed to go pass happy at all.

I know, I know. That doesn't matter, just like it didn't matter the two previous years when the defense couldn't stop anyone and put the team behind the 8 ball. It was Jake's interceptions compounding the situation that deserves to be hammered on.

And on and on and on.....

[Ballhawk]

You know when I want to see Jay play, when we are down by more than a TD in the 4th qrt. Take away the threat of us running the ball and Jake is about as bad as it gets. Yes Cutler will stare down WRs sometimes, but what I saw in preseason is that he has the arm to get it to the WR even if there is the tiniest of windows. Jake is lost unless a WR can get two steps seperation and even that is not always enough as he floats anything over 15 yards.

I am bewildered that so many can blame the D for the Pitt loss. If it wasn't for our D we would have never been there in the first place. SD win...D, Wash win...D, KC win...D, OAKx2 wins...D, Dallas, Buffalo, Jets. Can someone please point out one game Plummer won for us last year? Just one game where our D struggled and Jake picked up the team and ralleyed us to victory?

Oh yes Plummer led us on a long drive for 3 pts against Pitt and the D let him down. On that steller drive Jake threw one ball downfield, an 18 yarder to Putz, MA on the other hand had more to do with us moving the ball than Plummer did. But hell, one drive actually surpassed my expectations. Yes the D let Pitt score again, and Jake should have answered again, but asking Jake to go toe to toe is not something any of us wants to see.

The difference between Plummer and Cutler is, Cutler can make plays when nothing is there. When nothing is there for Jake, he makes plays for the opposition. I would like to see JC on the bench, soaking up the NFL QB life...for say 6-8 games. After that he will be ready and please do not talk about 10 yrs experience. If that experience was doing Jake any good, he wouldn't keep making bonehead mistakes.

[Clockwork Orange]

You know when I want to see Jay play, when we are down by more than a TD in the 4th qrt. Take away the threat of us running the ball and Jake is about as bad as it gets. Yes Cutler will stare down WRs sometimes, but what I saw in preseason is that he has the arm to get it to the WR even if there is the tiniest of windows. Jake is lost unless a WR can get two steps seperation and even that is not always enough as he floats anything over 15 yards.

I am bewildered that so many can blame the D for the Pitt loss. If it wasn't for our D we would have never been there in the first place. SD win...D, Wash win...D, KC win...D, OAKx2 wins...D, Dallas, Buffalo, Jets. Can someone please point out one game Plummer won for us last year? Just one game where our D struggled and Jake picked up the team and ralleyed us to victory?

Oh yes Plummer led us on a long drive for 3 pts against Pitt and the D let him down. On that steller drive Jake threw one ball downfield, an 18 yarder to Putz, MA on the other hand had more to do with us moving the ball than Plummer did. But hell, one drive actually surpassed my expectations. Yes the D let Pitt score again, and Jake should have answered again, but asking Jake to go toe to toe is not something any of us wants to see.

The difference between Plummer and Cutler is, Cutler can make plays when nothing is there. When nothing is there for Jake, he makes plays for the opposition. I would like to see JC on the bench, soaking up the NFL QB life...for say 6-8 games. After that he will be ready and please do not talk about 10 yrs experience. If that experience was doing Jake any good, he wouldn't keep making bonehead mistakes.

I'm sick to death of rehashing the Pittsburgh game, so if anyone else wants to, feel free. I will address Cutler, though.

Cutler faced the mighty Lions, Titans, Texans and Cardinals defenses. That's the four teams who were picking 1st, 3rd, 9th & 10th in the draft respectively. While he showed a lot of promise in those starts, comparing that to what he'd face in the regular season is like, well, there is no comparison. The competition in the regular season is going to be far and away superior to anything he saw in the preseason. The schemes that opposing defenses will be running are going to be a thousand times more creative and complex on top of the talent level of the opposing players being worlds higher.

I'd rather not run our prized prospect out there when he doesn't know the offense and hasn't had any real work with the first team offense. His development is the single most important thing this franchise has on their plate right now aside from attempting to win a Super Bowl. Is it worth it to risk that by putting him in harms way before he's even got a grip on the playbook? I don't think so, but that's just my opinion.

[Ballhawk]

I'd rather not run our prized prospect out there when he doesn't know the offense and hasn't had any real work with the first team offense. His development is the single most important thing this franchise has on their plate right now aside from attempting to win a Super Bowl. Is it worth it to risk that by putting him in harms way before he's even got a grip on the playbook? I don't think so, but that's just my opinion.

Like I said 6-8 weeks. JC has already shown the ability to grasp things quickly. Also, I could care less what teams were playing against us in preseason, you can make a throw or you can't. Give him 6 weeks and enough game film, and he will make plays:)

[Popps]

Averaging 4.8 yards per carry wasn't moving the chains? Did they change the rules to 20 yards for a 1st down instead of 10?

And hey, maybe if the defense hadn't put them in a 14 point hole, they

After our defense promptly allowed Pitt to go up 10-0, our offense put together a scoring drive that ate up around 6 minutes... pulling us within a touchdown.

What did our defense do? You guessed it, allowed Pitt to stroll 80 yards down the field and punch it in not once, but twice after a penalty.

Down 14... the defense showing no signs that they'd ever show up, and knowing Pitt got the ball first after halftime, we went into desperation mode after the 2 minute warning came. Jake forced a ball in where he shouldn't have.

But, our defense stepped up and kept us in the game like a championship defense... right?

Nope.

Another easy stroll down the field for Pitt for 7 more pts.

[Popps]

All I can speak for is what I've experienced on this board, which I personally consider the most intelligent and well informed place to get Broncos opinions, even if I'm a little biased... and even if we're all as crazy as we are.

We've got a QB with a .750 winning percentage coming off of a 13-3 season, and a poll where nearly half of the "fans" here have voted that they'd like to see him injured.

I love this place, but in a train-wreck sort of way. This forum's biggest draw is that it's nothing short of Art Bell material.

[BroncoInferno]

Congrats on finally at least acknowledging the fact that the defense deserves their own portion of the blame for that loss.

That's just Taco going into his Bill O'Reilly routine. You know, Bill b****es and moans about liberals all week, then he feebly throws in a brief, mild reproach of some conservative that molested a kid or something, pointing to that as proof that he's "fair and balanced". Just substitute "Plummer" for "liberals" and "the defense" for "child-molesting conservative", and you've got the same dynamic.

[Dedhed]

A lot of fans didn't like Plummer when he was signed and nothing short of a Super Bowl win was/is going to change that. Now those people, much like you, are counting the days until Cutler takes over.
Nothing short of a Super Bowl win should change that. I was excited when Plummer came to Denver, but this game is about Super Bowls and I've lost almost all confidence in Plummer's ability to lead a team there.

My biggest knock on Jake is the way his demeanor changed drastically if we got behind in a game, or if the pressure was intense. Everything Jake did was rushed and it permeated the entire offense.

It's the QBs #1 resposibility to set the tone for the offense. That's why Brady is the best QB in the league right now, and it has nothing to do with the physical. No matter the score or situation he has the same presence; focused and poised. Plummer does not have that. The minute we got behind last year he started looking frantic and rushed and the offense fell apart.

[Dedhed]

We've got a QB with a .750 winning percentage coming off of a 13-3 season, and a poll where nearly half of the "fans" here have voted that they'd like to see him injured.

I love this place, but in a train-wreck sort of way. This forum's biggest draw is that it's nothing short of Art Bell material.

I voted for Plummer, and hope that Cutler doesn't start a game this year. However the numbers that concern me are these:

.333
5-6

[bronco militia]

We've got a QB with a .750 winning percentage coming off of a 13-3 season, and a poll where nearly half of the "fans" here have voted that they'd like to see him injured.

I love this place, but in a train-wreck sort of way. This forum's biggest draw is that it's nothing short of Art Bell material.


relax
nearly half? try a third... roughly 120 votes, roughly 40 votes to see jay play two games...

some of you guys really like to blur the lines of reality around here....

TJ doesn't stand a chance against you guys.

[freak6]

We've got a QB with a .750 winning percentage coming off of a 13-3 season, and a poll where nearly half of the "fans" here have voted that they'd like to see him injured.


Helloooo.

A vote to see Cutler play 2 games is not a vote to see Jake get hurt.

[Taco John]

I sure don't want to see Jake get hurt. I *am* in favor of getting Jay as much experience as possible as soon as possible. Jay makes me believe in Mile High Magic again.

[Rock Chalk]

I tell you what I secretly hope.

That Jay Cutler starts and chokes so badly that you stupid mother ****ers will shut the **** up.

This is about our defense, period. Until the pass rush improves (which remains to be seen), no SB trophy for ANYONE.

[Popps]

relax
nearly half? try a third... roughly 120 votes, roughly 40 votes to see jay play two games...

some of you guys really like to blur the lines of reality around here....

TJ doesn't stand a chance against you guys.

I'm guessing you were an injury voter, huh? Good luck with that.

You're right, I should have phrased it differently. The vote was around 40 to 80. when I posted. So, half as many voted that they'd like to see our starting QB injured as did no. So, I misspoke.

It really makes it a lot better that it's a third of our "fans" here that want to see our starter injured. Perfectly normal for any fan club.


TJ doesn't stand a chance against you guys.

Taco doesn't stand a chance because his argument changes almost daily.
If he'd ever dig into an actual position, he'd be O.K.. But, when you go from "the QB is an afterthought" to demanding a franchise QB, people only take you so seriously.

[Taco John]

Taco doesn't stand a chance because his argument changes almost daily.



???

News to me. Got an example of a take I made last month that I've changed today? I'm pretty certain you're the only one who believes that. At least you're the only one who's ever thrown that out there.

[Taco John]

Also, just to be clear, because you keep parroting the distortion, and I know that you'll never stop... But I never said "the QB is an afterthought." I did say that during that time, when the likes of Brad Johnson (whom Popps says is an elite quarterback, so people can see where he's coming from) and Trent Dilfer (again, Popps said Trent Dilfer is an elite quarterback) were winning Superbowls that for that time "the QB was practically an afterthought," as those teams were able to win despite their talent level at quarterback. The statement was a knock on Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson, and offered to underline the fact that you DON'T need the absolute best quarterback in the league to win it all, but a game manager who knows and understands his role in the offense and can handle the pressure of the big game... a position that I still believe today. I never said that the QB position was absolutely and unequivocally an afterthought. But you latched onto that and have never let go.

...and I still think that a game manager can win the Superbowl today. I just don't believe that Jake Plummer is that game manager, and I won't believe until he finally steps up and proves it. The fact that I'm arguing for Jay Cutler doesn't mean that I've changed my view and believe that you HAVE to have a franchise quarterback to win it all. It just means that I don't believe Jake has the poise to handle the big game situations and will always be the interception throwing machine that he's proven to be when the pressure is on, and I'd rather we get our real, more talented quarterback in there earning experience and carrying this team into the future. It's not going to happen as quick as I'd like, but I can live with that.

So my take hasn't changed "daily," or even at all... And neither have your distortions of them.

[orange 4 life]

at least option two is leading.

still, its VERY unsettling that so many "fans" care more about seeing cutler than getting a win.

[Taco John]

at least option two is leading.

still, its VERY unsettling that so many "fans" care more about seeing cutler than getting a win.

Some of us believe in Cutler, meaning we believe we can win with him.

[orange 4 life]

bunch of friggin "cutler homers".

[orange 4 life]

Some of us believe in Cutler, meaning we believe we can win with him.

yeah whatever cutler homer.

[bronco militia]

bunch of friggin "cutler homers".

damn straight :thumbsup:

[Taco John]

Absolutely! ^5

[Popps]

So my take hasn't changed "daily," or even at all... And neither have your distortions of them.

"The QB position is an afterthought in today's NFL."

Now, you've admitted saying it since... but lately, you've begun claiming that you never said it. Your only defense that I can't actually dig it up and post your own words... as I'm sure the forum doesn't archive that far back.

You later changed your stance to... we need competition. (Conveniently after Griese was shown the door.)

Finally, when your Griese sour grapes got too bad to handle, you switched into "we need a franchise QB" mode, in your efforts to ditch Plummer.

So, a complete 180 in a matter of a couple years... nothing new.

[Popps]

yeah whatever cutler homer.

The funny thing is, if Cutler gets in there and starts having problems... watch Taco start blaming everyone else.

Write it down.

Taco will be back in full-on Griese defense-mode from the first snap that guy takes. If he plays poorly, it'll be Shanahan's fault (again). Kubiak is gone, so I guess he can't blame him any longer.

It wouldn't even surprise me to see Taco jump on the "improve the defense" bandwagon as soon as Cutler replaces the guy who replaced his ex.

The one thing you will NEVER see, is the QB being blamed for anything, once Cutler takes his first snap.

Should be fun to watch.

[Taco John]

"The QB position is practically an afterthought in today's NFL."


You keep missing the most important part of it... I know your not stupid. You're just trying to be decietful and misrepresent what I've said. We can argue this all day long, but I don't think anybody honestly cares about it.



Now, you've admitted saying it since...

No I didn't. I've just relented because it's tiring to have to correct your distortions every single time you've presented them, Mr. Brad Johnson is an elite quarterback.

but lately, you've begun claiming that you never said it.

Not the way you've distorted it, I didn't.

You later changed your stance to... we need competition. (Conveniently after Griese was shown the door.)

Actually, that's been my position going back to when Elway left. I've wanted open competition for the position going back to my days at the DPO, which is why Baja chimed in not long ago saying as much. I've been an advocate of bringing in worthy competitors, rather than just handing the job to a guy to be the saviour without winning the job in open competition (ala Griese and Plummer).

Finally, when your Griese sour grapes got too bad to handle, you switched into "we need a franchise QB" mode, in your efforts to ditch Plummer.

Not sure what you're talking about at all here. I've never once said (with quotes) "we need a franchise QB." I'm amused that you would lecture me about my use of quotes last week when I challenge that your position is "the field position battle doesn't matter," and now you're hypocritcally using them to say that I've said "we need a franchise QB." I've never once said that. But you've said that I've said that, and even included quotations so it's good enough for you.

So, a complete 180 in a matter of a couple years... nothing new.

The only thing that's come around 180 is your distortions of what I've said. Anyone can put quotes around words, say that's what someone else said, and then argue against the made up quotes...

But this isn't made up:

Popps: "Brad Johnson is an elite QB."

[maven]

Break out the pom poms!

:egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb:

It's Cutler time!

:strong: :strong: :strong: ::

[Popps]

But this isn't made up:

Popps: "Brad Johnson is an elite QB."


I did say he worked himself into an elite class by performing at a high level for three franchises, and then winning a SB. You were trying to tell us Greise was elite, so you have to keep it in context.

Tell you what... you provide me with a way to find your "QB is an afterthought" quote, and I'll post it.

But, we know that'll never happen.

[Taco John]

It wouldn't even surprise me to see Taco jump on the "improve the defense" bandwagon as soon as Cutler replaces the guy who replaced his ex.




Hahaha! You say that like I've somehow rallied AGAINST improving the defense. I'm all for improving the defense, and absolutely am looking forward to getting a DE and a S in next year's draft. I was all for it this year, though I believed that this draft was the right time to draft a quarterback of the future so hoped we'd draft one in the first round.

But you're right. Next year, I'm hoping we go DE, S, or RB in the first round. I'm pretty much against the idea of drafting a QB at this point! lol

[mattleecrew]

not sure if it was said already in 13 pages of rambling but as large as Shanahan's full playbook is I want Jay on the pine studying every inch of it and learning as much as he can before stepping on the field during the season. If Shanny and company want to open the full playbook and take advantage of his talent, lets make sure Jay is comfortable with it.
Im all for Jake Plummer this year and more if need be.

[Taco John]

I did say he worked himself into an elite class by performing at a high level for three franchises, and then winning a SB. You were trying to tell us Greise was elite, so you have to keep it in context.

Tell you what... you provide me with a way to find your "QB is an afterthought" quote, and I'll post it.

But, we know that'll never happen.



The only way I know is the search engine... But I never said it anyway... I said "practically an afterthought," commenting on the fact that Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were winning Superbowls. It wasn't like I was saying that coaches absolutely never needed to worry about the quarterback position. It was saying that a game manager could win it all... A position I still maintain. Also, I never once said Griese was elite.

You, however, still said (and I quote for accuracy) "Brad Johnson is an elite quarterback." You said the same for Trent Dilfer. Just because you consider that calibre of quarterback elite, and considered Griese nowhere near their level of talent doesn't mean that the transitive property works here and thus I said Griese was elite. That never happened. I've always maintained that Griese was an overall average talent that I believed we could win with if we provided the kind of protection that he had when Tony Jones was manning the left tackle spot, and had receivers not named Nash, Haygood, Kasper, Montgomery, Cole, McGeoghan, and Poole starting for him...

You're right about one thing... I do believe Shanahan could have won with Griese if he had a better supporting cast. Likewise, I think Shanahan has done a good job with the likes of Plummer. I also think Shanahan could do the same with someone like Charlie Batch if needed. And I *REALLY* believe he's going to do special things with Jay Cutler.

[Popps]

You're right about one thing... I do believe Shanahan could have won with Griese if he had a better supporting cast. .

So, what do you call the supporting cast Plummer has had? Care to go through position by position on offense with me?

When you say Shanahan could have "won" with Griese, I'm not sure what you mean. He certainly could have never won a SB. Griese had no pocket awareness whatsoever. Plummer can at least do several things well, and avoids the rush, on top of not turning the ball over on any kind of regular basis.

That's what confuses everyone, dude. You made this major case for how we could have won win a crappy QB if we surrounded him with a great cast...

... then, we get an abvove average QB (for our system, if nothing else) in here... and you can't wait to run him out of town, and refuse to acknowledge that HE needs a supporting cast, too?

There's where you lose people, Taco. It's a complete 180 that applied one set (or no set) of standards for a crummy QB, and an insane set for another.

You've got a car with a working radio and a broken transmission. It may not be a great radio, but it works. Your answer? Just keep replacing the radio and hopefully that will make up for a broken transmission.

[freak6]

It really makes it a lot better that it's a third of our "fans" here that want to see our starter injured.

Seek help.

[Hulamau]

As long a Jake is playing well and we are winning no problem I'm behind him 100% , BUT if Jake is asked to do more with the offense than last year as eveyone assumes with Dinger calling the shots and Jake starts struggling which would indicate he had reached his zenith last year managing a ball-controlled offense, then I'm all for giving the young gun the reins.

In that unfortunate case, at least we'd be spending the time productively even if, as is likely, Cutler has some rocky games as well as he will be improving by leaps and bounds for later in the year and the future.

Of course, if Jake does get injured its all a moot point and the Cutler era starts by default sooner than expected and we all have to make the best of it.

The beauty of this situation is that we don't have to fret over it a bit. All the chess pieces are on the board already and events and Shanny will dictate precisely when one or the other should be used.

The two other scenarios in which Cutler may well come in for a bit without Jake getting injured or benched are 1. ... if we run up a big lead late in the third quarter and we want to give Jake a break and give Cutler some more experience, and I confess I'm really excitied about seeing a bunch of those kind of quarters of Culter playing.

2. And/or if we get way behind (more than ten or twelve points in the beginning of the 4th quarter and are forced to go one dimensional passing to have any hopes at all of catching up in which case Cutler is clearly the better option than Jake.

In the later case, the game is totally lost if Jake stays in there, and yet while it would be a real uphill battle for Cutler too, it would give him some invaluable experience and at least give us a glimmer of hope of coming from behind and winning.

I have no doubt Shanny has already discussed these scenarios with both of them which will hopefully inspire JAke all the more not to drop 14+ points behind to begin with!

I'm only taking about a late deficit of 12 to 14 points or more. If Jake drops behind by two scores early in the first or early 2nd quarter, I'd leave him in there until and unless he proves hes not got what it takes that day to pull it out of the fire, but I'm taking about the last quarter and a half of the game when its no surprise to anyone what we have to do try to do to win and Cutler's fundamental skills with the forward pass far outway Jakes.

Lets hope we get plenty more of the former opportunites in 06 to see Jay in action rather than the later!

[Taco John]

So, what do you call the supporting cast Plummer has had? Care to go through position by position on offense with me?

When you say Shanahan could have "won" with Griese, I'm not sure what you mean. He certainly could have never won a SB. Griese had no pocket awareness whatsoever. Plummer can at least do several things well, and avoids the rush, on top of not turning the ball over on any kind of regular basis.

That's what confuses everyone, dude. You made this major case for how we could have won win a crappy QB if we surrounded him with a great cast...

... then, we get an abvove average QB (for our system, if nothing else) in here... and you can't wait to run him out of town, and refuse to acknowledge that HE needs a supporting cast, too?

There's where you lose people, Taco. It's a complete 180 that applied one set (or no set) of standards for a crummy QB, and an insane set for another.

You've got a car with a working radio and a broken transmission. It may not be a great radio, but it works. Your answer? Just keep replacing the radio and hopefully that will make up for a broken transmission.


I think Plummer has got a pretty decent supporting cast. Better than we've had since 2001 when Ed went down. As far as Griese goes, I think he'd do better in a system like KC, with bulky olinemen. I've been in favor of beefing up our line for years. Plummer, however, has different expectations due to the fact that he *is* mobile. That was his whole selling point that you yourself made: we don't need to bulk up our offensive line, you said. We just need a QB who can scramble. Fine with me. I was in favor of bringing Plummer in. I just wasn't in favor of cutting Griese and parting with the dead money that his cap numbers represented. I wanted to keep Griese around to back Plummer up. I was never in doubt that Plummer would win the job. Nor was I disappointed about it.

I don't have an insane set of standards for Plummer at all. In fact, I have a very reasonable one: don't throw interceptions in post season games. Simple. Cut and dried. I don't think he's capable of it though. I've given up on him.

[Hulamau]

One thing is for sure, Plummer has a fabulous supporting cast this year! With Dinger calling the plays we should be less predictable and stale as Kubes and Shanny were at times the past few years. And with two pro bowl WR in Smith and Walker, as well as great new additions in Marshall, Kircus, Scheffler and Nate Jackson to chose from he's got a stable of huge recievers all of whom can catch and run! Not to mention a top 10 defense overall.

If Jake cant get it done with this set up, it will quickly become clear he has peaked and is a weak link in the cog. I suspect he'll have his best year yet, but I am still very interested to watch his long balls and see what he can do with those. We may still be able to win it all even with the handicap of an inconsistent long game, but if so, we will likely have to rely a lot more on the defense to deliver the bacon than would otherwise be the case if Jake could somehow discover the arm strength and accuracy to get that part of his game together.

[freak6]

I have no doubt Shanny has already discussed these scenarios with both of them which will hopefully inspire JAke all the more not to drop 14+ points behind to begin with!


lol.

[DeusExManning]

Shanahan's offense is the most complicated in the NFL. Shanny himself has said that it really takes 3 years to become comfortable with it. That is how long it took Jake. Jay is great and may be one of our greatest quarterbacks but it is to our advantage to let him sit and learn.

That being said. If we start out 0-5. Bench him. I do not want to see Jake get hurt. I really like the guy but you had better win, because you will never have a better chance then right now to win it all.

[Rock Chalk]

Friendly thread this is.

[crazyhorse]

Shanahan's offense is the most complicated in the NFL.

Dang....you must be new to football.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Shanahan's offense is the most complicated in the NFL.

ROFL!

Not in it's current form.

[Dagmar]

TJ Vs Popps threads = Orangemane gold!

[Cito Pelon]

It's a cyclical thing, too. We spent the last two off-seasons shoring up the defense. (Theoretically) So, certainly they saw a great opportunity in Cutler, but they also can't ONLY focus on defense every year. They were bound to address some of the offensive holes, too. I don't think either necessarily supports what the staff thinks is the "real" problem THIS year. (Or last year when it was defense.)

It's fairly obvious that they thought we had holes on both sides.

Now, if the staff would only pay the level of seriousness to the d-line that they have the CB, WR and QB position, we'd be in business.

Next draft will address that. The DL will have to suffice for now. Does the DL as it is now put an automatic ceiling on the team? Who the herm knows? They haven't even played a game yet.

[Rock Chalk]

Next draft will address that.

Keep hearing that, never happens.

[Rock Chalk]

TJ Vs Popps threads = Orangemane gold!

Yeah, but they have gotten lamer over time.

Taco used to have sem-decent arguments when it was about Griese. Even though he was wrong back then too. Now, its just the same old crap.

[Popps]

ROFL!

Not in it's current form.

Well, to be fair Bob, that's just when we play you guys. Shanahan is smart enough to know he can just hand the ball of to (fill in the blank) and run all over that flimsy "defense" all day long.

No complex game plan needed.

[baja]

Yeah, but they have gotten lamer over time.

Taco used to have sem-decent arguments when it was about Griese. Even though he was wrong back then too. Now, its just the same old crap.

This is good from the guy that only comes down from his perceived lofty perch to offer criticism or merely to insult someone's intelligence with nary a football take offered from his own vast wisdom.

[No1BroncoFan]

Yeah, because I'm sick of it. I'm sick of seeing us get down knowing that Plummer isn't capbable of keeping composure and giving us a chance to correct the ship. I'm sick of losing the field position battle. I'm sick of interceptions in post season games.
Yeah, well I got sick of losing Superbowls and watching Elway become the second most intercepted QB in Superbowl history. I still didn't call for the head of the guy who gave us the best chance of winning as you have been doing for two years now.

We could have gone into the locker room 17-10.
Of course, you're assuming we score on that drive. Something the Steeler defense didn't allow much of. So what if jake hadn't thrown that pick and we turned it over on downs? Or settled for 3? 17-3 or 17-6 at the half wouldn't have made a difference. Most likely 17-10 probably wouldn't have made a difference. The Steelers were the better team that day.

Jake is our best option right now to win football games. No raw rookie is gonna get it done.

Ben

[Cito Pelon]

Shanahan's offense is the most complicated in the NFL. Shanny himself has said that it really takes 3 years to become comfortable with it.. . . . ..

I thought it was an "Offense for Dummies". That's what I heard.

[Dedhed]

Because after Plummer we have crap and Plummer is in his thirties.

Yes, I too believe that Shanahan brought in Cutler to give Jake a quality back up for the next 6-7 years. I do not believe at all that Shanahan thinks Jake has taken the Broncos as far as he can.


*see below your own avatar

[Popps]

Yeah, well I got sick of losing Superbowls and watching Elway become the second most intercepted QB in Superbowl history. I still didn't call for the head of the guy who gave us the best chance of winning as you have been doing for two years now.


Of course, you're assuming we score on that drive. Something the Steeler defense didn't allow much of. So what if jake hadn't thrown that pick and we turned it over on downs? Or settled for 3? 17-3 or 17-6 at the half wouldn't have made a difference. Most likely 17-10 probably wouldn't have made a difference. The Steelers were the better team that day.

Jake is our best option right now to win football games. No raw rookie is gonna get it done.

Ben

Phenomenal post.... and it's no wonder you basically got a standing ovation around here after being gone for a bit.

See, Ben... you're using factual information and logical inference to house your arguments, while Taco uses things like... "we could have gone into half-time down 17-10." Now, you're logical enough to know that there is absolutely no basis for that statement. Pittsburgh's defense was playing lights-out, and our defense had taken the entire afternoon off.

Knowing that Pitt was getting the ball first, and that our D was already making plans for where they were going to watch the Superbowl, Shanahan wanted to pick up big chunks of yardage... i.e. desperation mode. Well, Pitt's D didn't have to think very hard on that one, and they caught Jake trying to force one in there.

But, our defense stepped up and kept us in the game like a championship defense does right? You know.... like Pitt's did the very next week in the Superbowl after they started 0-5 on their first 5 drives, the 4th ending in an INT.

Wait... no, they laid down and Pitt strolled down for another score.

[Popps]

In fact, I have a very reasonable one: don't throw interceptions in post season games.




Plummer v. Indy 1

-Threw his first INT when we were 21 POINTS DOWN, EARLY IN THE 2ND QUARTER... a game where our defense allowed Manning an NFL playoff record, and 21 points IN THE FIRST HALF.

Plummer v. Indy 2
-Threw 2 TDs and 1 INT for a 103.1 QB RATING. Manning threw one INT in that game as well. Indy did NOT score any points as a result of the INT.

Plummer v. Indy NE
-Won the game. One TD, one INT. Excellent play by Asante Samuel. The INT resulted in 3 pts for NE, who lost the game.

Plummer v. Pitt We all know the story. His first INT came near halftime in pass-only mode after falling into yet another hole.


So, when you talk about INTs, let's try to keep a little perspective.

By your logic, our secondary has been toasted every game. Champ Bailey got beat badly against Pittsburgh. Our secondary has allowed a ton of TDs through the air in playoff games....

it must be Champ Bailey's fault. Right? The other team scored TDs. If context is no issue, like it doesn't appear to be for Jake... Champ Bailey needs to be replaced.

Or... does context matter?

Hmmm.

[Florida_Bronco]

Plummer v. Indy 1

-Threw his first INT when we were 21 POINTS DOWN, EARLY IN THE 2ND QUARTER... a game where our defense allowed Manning an NFL playoff record, and 21 points IN THE FIRST HALF.

Plummer v. Indy 2
-Threw 2 TDs and 1 INT for a 103.1 QB RATING. Manning threw one INT in that game as well. Indy did NOT score any points as a result of the INT.

Plummer v. Indy NE
-Won the game. One TD, one INT. Excellent play by Asante Samuel. The INT resulted in 3 pts for NE, who lost the game.

Plummer v. Pitt We all know the story. His first INT came near halftime in pass-only mode after falling into yet another hole.


So, when you talk about INTs, let's try to keep a little perspective.

By your logic, our secondary has been toasted every game. Champ Bailey got beat badly against Pittsburgh. Our secondary has allowed a ton of TDs through the air in playoff games....

it must be Champ Bailey's fault. Right? The other team scored TDs. If context is no issue, like it doesn't appear to be for Jake... Champ Bailey needs to be replaced.

Or... does context matter?

Hmmm.

Great post Popps and an excellent breakdown. :thumbs:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Plummer v. Indy 1

-Threw his first INT when we were 21 POINTS DOWN, EARLY IN THE 2ND QUARTER... a game where our defense allowed Manning an NFL playoff record, and 21 points IN THE FIRST HALF.

So it's OK for a Bronco quarterback to lead an offense to 3 points and then throw an interception in the course of four drives?

Hell of a playoff quarterback.


Plummer v. Indy 2
-Threw 2 TDs and 1 INT for a 103.1 QB RATING. Manning threw one INT in that game as well. Indy did NOT score any points as a result of the INT.

Interceptions are one thing. Leading your team to 3 points in the first seven drives of the game is another thing. They both suck.


Plummer v. Indy NE
-Won the game. One TD, one INT. Excellent play by Asante Samuel. The INT resulted in 3 pts for NE, who lost the game.

He started this game in similar fashion. Five drives, one interception, no points.

Fortunately, his defense bailed him out, and then he got the offensive machine going with a 40-yard pass interference call.

He also directed great scoring drives of 7, 1 and 15 yards. Best drive of the night was at the end of the game, and featured 1 pass, 6 runs.

Plummer was a bystander in this game. He managed to not screw it up.

Plummer v. Pitt We all know the story. His first INT came near halftime in pass-only mode after falling into yet another hole.


Another classic Plummer playoff performance. Started the game with six drives, produced 3 points and two turnovers.

Essentially, this data proves that Plummer takes an entire half before he gets into the offensive rhythm of the game. He cannot generate meaningful offense early in playoff games. He might get you three points.

Basically, to win a playoff game, Jake Plummer's defense must turn in an almost FLAWLESS performance.

[Taco John]

Yeah, well I got sick of losing Superbowls and watching Elway become the second most intercepted QB in Superbowl history. I still didn't call for the head of the guy who gave us the best chance of winning as you have been doing for two years now.


Good for you. I never called for Elway's head either. I understood that Elway was the franchise. This is hardly the case with Plummer. I sure don't feel guilty about criticizing a caretaker quarterback who chokes in big games. He'd be nearly washed out of the league by now if it weren't for Shanahan, competing with Brian Griese for a job in Chicago.

I could go on and on addressing your points, but ultimately, I don't care anymore. Jake's a more than capable care-taker, and under Shanahan's guidance is capable of taking this team to the playoffs, even if I don't think he has what it takes in the clutch to get past that point. I'll enjoy the run, and wish him well.

Go Jake.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Denver's defense digs a little hole.

Plummer fails to fill it.

Denver's defense makes the hole a little deeper.

Plummer fails to fill it.

Denver's defense makes the hole a little deeper.

Plummer grabs a shovel and starts digging with them.


That's how your playoff games go (apart from one, when Plummer tried to dig a hole, but the defense filled it).

[Taco John]

Plummer v. Indy 1

-Threw his first INT when we were 21 POINTS DOWN, EARLY IN THE 2ND QUARTER... a game where our defense allowed Manning an NFL playoff record, and 21 points IN THE FIRST HALF.

Plummer v. Indy 2
-Threw 2 TDs and 1 INT for a 103.1 QB RATING. Manning threw one INT in that game as well. Indy did NOT score any points as a result of the INT.

Plummer v. Indy NE
-Won the game. One TD, one INT. Excellent play by Asante Samuel. The INT resulted in 3 pts for NE, who lost the game.

Plummer v. Pitt We all know the story. His first INT came near halftime in pass-only mode after falling into yet another hole.


So, when you talk about INTs, let's try to keep a little perspective.

By your logic, our secondary has been toasted every game. Champ Bailey got beat badly against Pittsburgh. Our secondary has allowed a ton of TDs through the air in playoff games....

it must be Champ Bailey's fault. Right? The other team scored TDs. If context is no issue, like it doesn't appear to be for Jake... Champ Bailey needs to be replaced.

Or... does context matter?

Hmmm.



More gems from Popps... Adding to "the field position battle doesn't matter," we can now chalk up "it's ok to choke if the pressure is too high."

Go Jake.

[Taco John]

See, Ben... you're using factual information and logical inference to house your arguments, while Taco uses things like... "we could have gone into half-time down 17-10." Now, you're logical enough to know that there is absolutely no basis for that statement.



You're absolutely right about that... It's completely illogical to believe that Plummer could have driven our offense down the field for a touchdown in a high pressure situation against a good defense. Which, by the way, is why I've given up hope on him.

At least we can agree on something.

[Taco John]

I just want to be done with this, but it's hard to when you float softballs over the base like that.

[Taco John]

"It's ok to choke if their defense is really good."

/ok... trying to stop...

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I think, at minimum, a playoff quarterback should be able to produce 10 points per half given decent field position.

[24champ]

Denver's defense digs a little hole.

Plummer fails to fill it.

Denver's defense makes the hole a little deeper.

Plummer fails to fill it.

Denver's defense makes the hole a little deeper.

Plummer grabs a shovel and starts digging with them.


That's how your playoff games go (apart from one, when Plummer tried to dig a hole, but the defense filled it).

A fan of a team that hasnt won a playoff game in 13 years telling us how our playoffs go...comical.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

A fan of a team that hasnt won a playoff game in 13 years telling us how our playoffs go...comical.

Are you going to call me a queer now?

[baja]

Well after all this back and forth bickering one thing is certain, either we will win big with Jake or we will get to watch a franchise QB develop game by game, either way gotta love being a Bronco fan this season particularly.

[24champ]

Are you going to call me a queer now?

Don't need to.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Don't need to.

That hasn't stopped you in the past...

[Taco John]

Well after all this back and forth bickering one thing is certain, either we will win big with Jake or we will get to watch a franchise QB develop game by game, either way gotta love being a Bronco fan this season particularly.



Amen to that. :pray:

[Rock Chalk]

You're absolutely right about that... It's completely illogical to believe that Plummer could have driven our offense down the field for a touchdown in a high pressure situation against a good defense. Which, by the way, is why I've given up hope on him.

At least we can agree on something.

I no longer believe you were a fan of the team during our Superbowl losses of the 80s.

I dont think you became a fan until sometime right after we beat Green Bay in the Superbowl.

No way could you have not lambasted Elway during those years prior to that. NO ****ing way.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Found this:

John's just not a Super Bowl quarterback. He's a good playoff caretaker. I'm tired of seeing him throw interceptions when he gets into the big game. It's completely illogical to believe that Elway could have driven our offense down the field for a touchdown in a high pressure situation against a good defense in a Super Bowl. Which, by the way, is why I've given up hope on him. Has anyone heard anything about this Tommy Maddox guy?

[Taco John]

I no longer believe you were a fan of the team during our Superbowl losses of the 80s.

I dont think you became a fan until sometime right after we beat Green Bay in the Superbowl.

No way could you have not lambasted Elway during those years prior to that. NO ****ing way.


I was the biggest Elway homer in my school. I took it like a man, wearing my Broncos gear to school after each and every loss proud as hell to show my colors. Believe me, I caught hell.

I still am bewildered by the Elway/Plummer comparisons. Criticizing a caretaker quarterback for choking at home when he's got a chance to pull within a touchdown is a lot different than calling for the head of your franchise quarterback after he's the reason you got there in the first place.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

More:

Good for you. I never called for Morton's head either. I understood that Morton was the franchise. This is hardly the case with Elway. I sure don't feel guilty about criticizing a caretaker quarterback who chokes in big games. He'd be nearly washed out of the league by now if it weren't for Reeves, competing with Jim Harbaugh for a job in Chicago.

I could go on and on addressing your points, but ultimately, I don't care anymore. Elway's a more than capable care-taker, and under Reeves' guidance is capable of taking this team to the Super Bowl, even if I don't think he has what it takes in the clutch to get past that point. I'll enjoy the run, and wish him well.

Go Tommy.

[baja]

I no longer believe you were a fan of the team during our Superbowl losses of the 80s.

I dont think you became a fan until sometime right after we beat Green Bay in the Superbowl.

No way could you have not lambasted Elway during those years prior to that. NO ****ing way.

I didn't and I certainly was a Bronco fan than..

[Bob's your Information Minister]

More!

I sure don't want to see Elway get hurt. I *am* in favor of getting Tommy as much experience as possible as soon as possible. Tommy makes me believe in Mile High Magic again.

[Popps]

You're absolutely right about that... It's completely illogical to believe that Plummer could have driven our offense down the field for a touchdown in a high pressure situation against a good defense. Which, by the way, is why I've given up hope on him.

At least we can agree on something.

I actually DO agree that our offense was going to struggle that day. But, unlike your single-directional approach to every problem, I base it on a variety of factors ranging from a horrific defensive performance (again) to a game plan which oddly chose to go pass-crazy against a great secondary and a great pass-rushing team... and yes, to a QB who's strength is NOT bringing teams back out of 21 pt ****-holes.

Ben gave a very intelligent and objective look at the situation as a whole. You're just pointing fingers at Plummer, with no context... no accountability for anyone else, and all to fit some bizarre agenda.

[Popps]

More gems from Popps... Adding to "the field position battle doesn't matter.

Of course it matters. Never said it didn't. Feel free to post a quote... and that conversation took place recently, unlike your "QB is an afterthought" business, which is conveniently unavailable.

"it's ok to choke if the pressure is too high."


Certainly not. Once again, didn't say it.

It's cool, Taco. You've basically been voted off the island on this thread. Not a surprise you'd resort to nonsense.

[Popps]

I no longer believe you were a fan of the team during our Superbowl losses of the 80s.

I dont think you became a fan until sometime right after we beat Green Bay in the Superbowl.

No way could you have not lambasted Elway during those years prior to that. NO ****ing way.


DUDE, YOU'RE SAYING PLUMMER IS AS GOOD AS ELWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Taco John]

Popps, do you believe that our defensive line is good enough that we can win a Superbowl with Plummer?

[listopencil]

Yes, I too believe that Shanahan brought in Cutler to give Jake a quality back up for the next 6-7 years. I do not believe at all that Shanahan thinks Jake has taken the Broncos as far as he can.


*see below your own avatar


Nice. Yet another OM poster with reading comprehension problems. Reading Is Fundamental. Look into it.

Do you think Cutler is going to take over in his rookie year and lead us to the Super Bowl? If you do you're a moron. Do you think he's going to take over in his second year and lead us to a Super Bowl? If you do you're optimistic at best, deluded at worst. Maybe his third year? I'd agree that the chance of this is decent (even likely) if Cutler is as good as he looks. Where does that leave us? Well, if the FO felt that we needed an immediate upgrade at QB because we didn't have a chance to win the Super Bowl with Plummer than the draft was absolutely the most ignorant way to do it. The change would have been made the same way it was done when they offed Griese. They used FA to aquire someone who they felt could be the #1 QB. It had to be a vet that looked like he could fit the system or we might as well have just put up the old "rebuilding" banner at Bronco HQ. Obviously this wasn't the case as that's not what the team did. Go back and read some of the comments made by Shanny around the time of the draft. He said that this was an opportunity that they couldn't pass up. It was too good. Even though the timing wasn't right for it. In a perfect world we use a high pick for a future franchise QB in a draft year that would give us just the right amount of time for that player to develop as Jake was on his way out. This isn't a perfect world. The Broncos took the opportunity because it was such a good one. This is what the FO has been saying all along. This is what makes sense.


We drafted Cutler because he looks like he will be a special player. The timing wasn't right but we had to jump on it because teams don't get chances like that very often. I never said we drafted Cutler to function as Plummer's backup, you ignorant pack of inbred dumbasses. I said we drafted Cutler:


1) Because after Plummer we have crap...

...so a high pick QB could contribute as the #2/#3 guy immediately and work his way up the chart depending on how quick he came along. If he was totally unready we could kep BVP (ugh!) or get a FA to be #2 this year. If he was what he looked like he would beat BVP out in camp and take the #2 spot-which is what happened.




2) and Plummer is in his thirties...

...so we will need someone to replace him before too long. The timing isn't right but we had to jump because the situation was so good. Now Cutler will have to beat out a more effective Plummer instead of a future pick beating out Plummer later in his career.



It's a win-win for the team. Cutler has already taken the first step in beating BVP in order to back up Plummer. At some point, I anticipate this to be during Cutler's third season, Cutler will have to take the next step and beat out Plummer to take the starter's job because Plummer won't be around forever.



Any of you mouth-breathers still confused? It was this post that started the confusion:

Weak. Yeah, Shanny traded up in the 1st round to 11th overall, giving up a 3rd round pick in the process just because he wanted backup for Jake. He had a backup for Jake in BVP last year. There were other less expensive ways to acquire another QB if Shanny simply wanted a back-up for Jake.

Herc, you always have useful info and I pay a lot of attention to your posts but in this case you really needed to get that ****ing stick out of your ass, it looks like that stick was firmly nailed to your high horse.

[Taco John]

It's a win-win for the team. Cutler has already taken the first step in beating BVP in order to back up Plummer. At some point, I anticipate this to be during Cutler's third season, Cutler will have to take the next step and beat out Plummer to take the starter's job because Plummer won't be around forever.



Hey Listo... You and I go back and have had some good times on these forums together both here and at CP, So I know you'll take this in the sporting manner it's intended. I'll wager a six pack of quality brew from my area, for the same in your area that Cutler will be our starter in week one of next year... There's no way I believe Cutler will be backing up Plummer for two full years. I see that as free beer if you're willing to accept the friendly wager.

[listopencil]

Hey Listo... You and I go back and have had some good times on these forums together both here and at CP, So I know you'll take this in the sporting manner it's intended. I'll wager a six pack of quality brew from my area, for the same in your area that Cutler will be our starter in week one of next year... There's no way I believe Cutler will be backing up Plummer for two full years. I see that as free beer if you're willing to accept the friendly wager.


Sure. I live near Chico, California and I heard that they have some pretty good micro brews over there. I don't think he'll be ready by then, but if he is I'll be a happy Bronco fan and I'll gladly ship you a sixer to pay up.

[Taco John]

Sure. I live near Chico, California and I heard that they have some pretty good micro brews over there. I don't think he'll be ready by then, but if he is I'll be a happy Bronco fan and I'll gladly ship you a sixer to pay up.

It's a deal. This is microbrew country, so indeed, I can promise that you'll enjoy the offering should I lose the wager.

[Popps]

Popps, do you believe that our defensive line is good enough that we can win a Superbowl with Plummer?

Probably a set-up question, but I'll bite....

You know I've had major concerns about the line for years, and that's important to note, Taco. Back when Griese was QB, I was STILL banging the table for some real linemen. It's been a consistent complaint I've had since the SB days, regardless of who our QB has been.

I had major fears going into the playoffs that our lack of a pass rush would be exposed. The Giants game was a pretty good example of us knowing a team was going to pass, and being able to do nothing about it. I had fears we'd see that in the playoffs, and we eventually did.

The blitz gimmicks worked against NE, mostly because they were a little beat up, and had zero running game to speak of. Brady still had a ton of yardage, but he made a crucial mistake.

I knew if we were going to beat Pitt, we'd have to do it on the ground, not so much because of Jake (though I recognize his limitations... AND strengths)... but because Pittsburgh has a brutal pass-rush and a great secondary. That's not a recipe for winning through the air. The other side of that coin was that I knew Cower had seen enough of our gimmicks, and they run plenty of their own... that he was going to be ready for it, and they were.

So, we were faced with what's been plaguing this team for years... our down linemen had to get pressure on their own, sack the QB, bat down balls, and generally disrupt the opposing offense WITHOUT the help of the blitz.

Well, you saw what happened. Just abysmal against the pass... all day long.

So, do I think we can win it with Jake now? I don't know, I'll need to see our line in action. I liked Lang so far, wasn't impressed with the short kid yet, and everyone else we've seen. So, I have my doubts again. I hope those doubts are quelled and that we can finally see some linemen making plays up front.

I'm a rabid fan, Taco... and I've truly believed this has been the source of my team losing for years. I said it through the Griese days, and if it continues... I'll say it through the Cutler days.

You've ABSOLUTELY got to dominate the line of scrimmage to win playoff games. You don't do it with cute offenses and defensive trickery.

Ask Indy.

[Popps]

Add to that situation, Taco... I'm still not sure what to make of our running game. I was kind of a fan of Mike Anderson in that he could really move the chains with a nice YPR average. He was a consistent 4-5 yards when we needed it. Not so sure who is that guy, now.

So, Jake has a couple of great new weapons to THROW the ball to, I'm just not sure about the run game.

[No1BroncoFan]

You're absolutely right about that... It's completely illogical to believe that our offense could have driven our offense down the field for a touchdown in a high pressure situation against a good defense. Which, by the way, is why I've given up hope on him.

At least we can agree on something.
Fixed it for you TJ. Thier defense came to play and our whole freakin' team mailed it in, Plummer included. Point here is whole team. They were so fvcking glad they didn't have to travel to the RCA dome again and so overconfident in their home field advantage that they simply mailed it in. Nobody performed worth a sh*t that day, except the Steelers who were the better team that day. I believe we win that game eight out of ten times, but we didn't that day. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, but didn't. It was a team loss whether you want to believe it or not. We got punked in our yard by an inferior team because of a team collapse. Was Plummer partially to blame? Sure, but no more than anyone else in blue and orange that day. The whole damned team stunk and you can still smell the stench hovering over Invesco field every time you drive by.

Ben

[Ballhawk]

2) and Plummer is in his thirties...

...so we will need someone to replace him before too long. The timing isn't right but we had to jump because the situation was so good. Now Cutler will have to beat out a more effective Plummer instead of a future pick beating out Plummer later in his career.


I think Shanny had Cutler targeted for over a year (or at least a QB). There was far too much wheeling and dealing to believe that we moved all the way upto #11 by chance. Much forethought went into getting us into a position to take Cutler and what you are impling is that we woke up on draft day and found Cutler was just too good to pass up.

Shanny is not going to let this team age around a weakness, when we have a possible Franchise QB waiting in the wings...cant see it going down that way.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No to all.

I want to see if the competition at QB and the clock running down on his SB chances will give Jake an added sense of urgency that elevates his level of play this season or not.

[Dedhed]

Plummer v. Indy 1

-Threw his first INT when we were 21 POINTS DOWN, EARLY IN THE 2ND QUARTER... a game where our defense allowed Manning an NFL playoff record, and 21 points IN THE FIRST HALF.

[
Plummer v. Pitt We all know the story. His first INT came near halftime in pass-only mode after falling into yet another hole.


So, when you talk about INTs, let's try to keep a little perspective.

By your logic, our secondary has been toasted every game. Champ Bailey got beat badly against Pittsburgh. Our secondary has allowed a ton of TDs through the air in playoff games....

it must be Champ Bailey's fault. Right? The other team scored TDs. If context is no issue, like it doesn't appear to be for Jake... Champ Bailey needs to be replaced.

Or... does context matter?

Hmmm.Let's talk about perspective. How many first downs did Plummer throw for prior to his first INT against Indy? and Pittsburgh? Or is the QB's job finished if he doesn't throw the ball to the other team?

[Popps]

Let's talk about perspective. How many first downs did Plummer throw for prior to his first INT against Indy? and Pittsburgh? Or is the QB's job finished if he doesn't throw the ball to the other team?

The Steelers went 0-5 in their first 5 drives in the Superbowl, two of them were 3 and outs, and the 5th ended with an INT.

They won the game.

They have a true championship defense that stepped up when their offense started out flat, which will REGULARLY happen in the playoffs, no matter how good your offense is. (See Denver's 14-10 win at Kansas City.)


Yes, our OFFENSE started out slowly. That's no reason for the defense to lay down for franchise passing records in the FIRST HALF.

Yes, perspective is important, you're right.

[Dedhed]

The Steelers went 0-5 in their first 5 drives in the Superbowl, two of them were 3 and outs, and the 5th ended with an INT.

They won the game.

They have a true championship defense that stepped up when their offense started out flat, which will REGULARLY happen in the playoffs, no matter how good your offense is. (See Denver's 14-10 win at Kansas City.)


Yes, our OFFENSE started out slowly. That's no reason for the defense to lay down for franchise passing records in the FIRST HALF.

Yes, perspective is important, you're right.
I completely agree that the defense didn't hold up their end of the bargain, but as soon as we got behind, Jake and the offense became frantic and hurried. I put that on the QB's shoulders. Jake fell into full force "where's Rod" mode, and the offense went dead flat. Two or three first downs in any of those early posessions, and I think the game takes on a different tone.

In my opinion it's more about demeanor. To go 0-5, and come out on the 6th posession with a focused and poised disposition is one thing. To press more and become more hectic with each posession is another. That's what I saw from Jake, and he didn't look like a guy who has the demeanor to lead a team in high pressure situations. As the pressure amps up Jake does everything faster, and that leads to mistakes that cost you big wins.

[freak6]

Yes, our OFFENSE started out slowly. That's no reason for the defense to lay down for franchise passing records in the FIRST HALF.


It's not about the defense. It's about Jake Plummer throwing 2 terrible interceptions in the AFC Championship. It's about Jake Plummer choking under pressure, and not making the right decision with the ball in his hand.

The QB is the point guard of the NFL x10. The ultimate position, that determines wins and losses more so than any other position. He makes the audibles. He decides where the ball gets thrown.

Jake Plummer's 2 interceptions killed our chances of coming back in the AFC Championship game. They were stupid passes, and that rests entirely on his shoulders.

On to 2006.

[Popps]

I completely agree that the defense didn't hold up their end of the bargain, but as soon as we got behind, Jake and the offense became frantic and hurried. I put that on the QB's shoulders.

I'd agree with that to a point, and I've said many times that Jake isn't the guy you want to bury deep in a hole and expect him to bring you out. Our formula for winning with this team has been keeping games close (or getting leads) and using the running game. Jake's great at executing our game plan. His mobility and use of the boot opens up the running game, and he's great at keeping drives alive by avoiding sacks, using his legs, etc. But, you don't put him 21 points down in a pass-only mode and expect good things to happen... not against Pittsburgh, certainly. It's just not logical.

Manning struggled against that defense. What makes anyone think that Jake Plummer should have been able to dig us out of that mess?

Besides, it was clear that our defense wasn't going to stop anyone that day. It couldn't have been more obvious. With Pitt getting the ball after half-time, Shanahan wanted to try to pick up big chunks of yardage. Pitt wasn't stupid, so they sat back and picked one off on a ball Jake tried to force.
Not all that hard to figure out if your Pitt.

I actually hated the game plan that day, for the record. I thought we had some early success running the ball and would have been much better off trying to establish that in the first half. Instead, we went into some kind of bizarre, pass-happy (as you said) mode even BEFORE we were down that far.

We only ran the ball 9 times in the first half, and 14 times in the game. That's absolutely inexcusable. Shanahan obviously thought he saw something he could exploit, but I'm not sure why... when Pitt had one of the best secondaries and pass-rushes in the game. Why come out pass-happy against that.

So, when you say you "put it on the QBs shoulders"... again, it's just not putting proper perspective on things. Yes, Jake looked as bad as anyone else, but it was symptomatic of larger problems.... the problems that day didn't ORIGINATE with one INT he threw near half-time.

[Popps]

As the pressure amps up Jake does everything faster, and that leads to mistakes that cost you big wins.

When you say pressure, again.. it needs context. You mean when he's down by 21 points or so and getting absolutely murdered by a championship defense. Yes, he did things faster. He had no choice... he had Pitt defenders in his grill all day long, again making you wonder, why come out passing all day?

But, in "pressure" games like the Indy game that got us into the playoffs, or the first New England game that was crucial in our playoff run, Jake played very well.

So, it's not accurate to say that he's not playing well in pressure situations.

It may be accurate to say that he's played poorly when we have a big deficit, to which I'd say... let's go ahead and not allow teams to score on their first 5 possessions, as we've done in our last three playoff losses.

[Rock Chalk]

When you say pressure, again.. it needs context. You mean when he's down by 21 points or so and getting absolutely murdered by a championship defense. Yes, he did things faster. He had no choice... he had Pitt defenders in his grill all day long, again making you wonder, why come out passing all day?

But, in "pressure" games like the Indy game that got us into the playoffs, or the first New England game that was crucial in our playoff run, Jake played very well.

So, it's not accurate to say that he's not playing well in pressure situations.

It may be accurate to say that he's played poorly when we have a big deficit, to which I'd say... let's go ahead and not allow teams to score on their first 5 possessions, as we've done in our last three playoff losses.

Popps, it really is admirable the defense you put up. Much more admirable than the defense Denver put up in the AFC Championship game. But its pointless. The retards who dont have a clue and continuously point to the QB for the entire team's failures on both sides of the ball will never get it. Not now, not ever.

Just accept the fact that the world is full of idiots and you aren't one of them.

[BroncoSoja]

I think Shanny had Cutler targeted for over a year (or at least a QB). There was far too much wheeling and dealing to believe that we moved all the way upto #11 by chance. Much forethought went into getting us into a position to take Cutler and what you are impling is that we woke up on draft day and found Cutler was just too good to pass up.

Shanny is not going to let this team age around a weakness, when we have a possible Franchise QB waiting in the wings...cant see it going down that way.

Exaclty, seems you get it. To bad some dont, I bet they still think we were doing all that wheeling and dealing to get Vernon Davis...Culter or Hollywood were the targets all along. Just looking at Shanahans face during the playoffs was proff enough, that he had enough of Plummers play.

[BroncoSoja]

Popps, it really is admirable the defense you put up. Much more admirable than the defense Denver put up in the AFC Championship game. But its pointless. The retards who dont have a clue and continuously point to the QB for the entire team's failures on both sides of the ball will never get it. Not now, not ever.

Just accept the fact that the world is full of idiots and you aren't one of them.

Our Defense did'nt cough the ball up 4 times.. Pressure and getting sacked is one thing, it usually ends your drive and cause's you to have to punt or take a FG.. Fumbling and tossing picks to a wide open Defensive player is another. The results is lose of momentum and the ball for the other team. Needless to say its much more devastating, expecially if you do it four times like Plummer did. Don't know how many time I have to say it, the Defense played a horrible game in the first half... Notice I said first half though, the second half they did ok, and if we had a QB worth a damn we could have made a game of it. But instead we have a moron out there who tries to force the ball to 1 offensive player in a sea of Pitt players, and when he is not doing that he is coughing the ball up constantly. And when your QB sucks it does'nt help that your RT and LT can't block to save there lives. Bottom line the Defense played horribly the first half, the Offense played like **** the whole game.

I love how you tards always put things on the defense around here, when they play bad its never the offensive job to keep us in the game.. But when the offense plays bad its like "Oh well its just one of those days" our Defense should have shut the other team out anyway...Double standard on this board, the Offense can always get a pass (no pun intended) but the Defense is always on the chopping block.. Its probably because most of you have Man love for Plummer while at the same time looking at Coyer as if he is a straight guy.

Dont matter though the person who really matters understands. We needed a different option at QB so he went out and got one. Plummer Lovers 0 people with a brain 1.

[Popps]

Our Defense did'nt cough the ball up 4 times..

They gave up scores on the FIRST FOUR POSSESSIONS against Pitt.

They gave up a playoff passing record to Manning in one game, and allowed FIVE consecutive first quarter scores in another.

No, they didn't cough up the ball... they coughed up the GAME.

In fact, I challenge you to find me a playoff team that has given up more points in the first half than we have over 4 games. I can almost guarantee you that it's a record.

Our defense was embarrassed to the tune of an NFL playoff yardage in the first half... and we've got people here jumping to their defense?

It really is baffling.

[Popps]

Furthermore, in a previous post... I illustrated that not only has Plummer's 5 INTs across three games had little to do with the defensive performance of our own team, but I've shown IN VERY SPECIFIC DETAIL where each INT occurred, as opposed to where THE DEFENSIVE MELTDOWN occurred.

I wouldn't blame the defense for Plummer throwing an INT at half-time of the Pitt game.... and logically, I wouldn't blame Plummer for the defense absolutely laying down against Pitt in the first half.

Simple.

[listopencil]

I think Shanny had Cutler targeted for over a year (or at least a QB). There was far too much wheeling and dealing to believe that we moved all the way upto #11 by chance. Much forethought went into getting us into a position to take Cutler and what you are impling is that we woke up on draft day and found Cutler was just too good to pass up.

Shanny is not going to let this team age around a weakness, when we have a possible Franchise QB waiting in the wings...cant see it going down that way.

I think we moved up to 11 because we could. We really didn't need a boatload of draft picks this year, I remember someone on the OM pointing that out before the draft but I don't remember who so I can't give them credit. I also think that when our pick came up and Cutler was available they knew that he was just too good to pass up regardless of our internal timeline. I think it was a "best player available" situation and the team felt that this was a value that couldn't be passed up. I agree that we have a possible franchise QB waiting in the wings. It's a great feeling as a fan. I believe that Cutler will beat out Plummer at some point. But I would be surprised if it was as early as next year and I don't think that was the plan when they drafted him. I think that if they were really planning on replacing Jake because he was holding the team back they would have done it via FA like they did before. That they would have gone for an immediate change just like they did with some of the other spots this past off season. If they were trying to avoid having the team age around a weakness they picked the worst possible way to do it.

[listopencil]

Plummer Lovers 0 people with a brain 1.

As long as we're keeping score-

Dip****s who think a rookie QB is what will get you over the playoff hump into a Super bowl win: 0


People who know better: 1

[Popps]

Listo... I also think you're right that we've probably been targeting him for longer than just this year. Shanahan is a guy who's sort of figured he could get QB help on the cheap, so this kind of big move makes you think it's a guy they really like. (And for good reason.)

I think that if they were really planning on replacing Jake because he was holding the team back they would have done it via FA like they did before.

Exactly.

Shanahan's lack of seriousness with regards to the back-up spot speaks volumes to the supposed QB emergency the team faces.

Shanny saw an extremely talented kid who would fit nicely into our offense, and yes... probably be an upgrade to Jake at some point. Nothing wrong with that. But, if Shanahan really thought Jake was the reason we lost the Pitt game, he would have at least brought in a Jeff Garcia, or someone with some NFL experience to try to steal the job.

The other real upside to the Cutler pick as far as I'm concerned is.... it's a real indication that Shanahan is going to stick around for a while. Why draft a new toy if you never get to play with it?

I think Shanahan sees this team as one that can win now, with Jake... and one that can win in the future, with Jay. If he fixes the defense... he's right.

[Ballhawk]

I think we moved up to 11 because we could. We really didn't need a boatload of draft picks this year, I remember someone on the OM pointing that out before the draft but I don't remember who so I can't give them credit. I also think that when our pick came up and Cutler was available they knew that he was just too good to pass up regardless of our internal timeline. I think it was a "best player available" situation and the team felt that this was a value that couldn't be passed up. I agree that we have a possible franchise QB waiting in the wings. It's a great feeling as a fan. I believe that Cutler will beat out Plummer at some point. But I would be surprised if it was as early as next year and I don't think that was the plan when they drafted him. I think that if they were really planning on replacing Jake because he was holding the team back they would have done it via FA like they did before. That they would have gone for an immediate change just like they did with some of the other spots this past off season. If they were trying to avoid having the team age around a weakness they picked the worst possible way to do it.

We disagree, but thats cool does not really matter what the plan was, but I think the plan now is Cutler 2007. I just happen to think that is best for our Broncos.

[listopencil]

I think Shanahan sees this team as one that can win now, with Jake... and one that can win in the future, with Jay. If he fixes the defense... he's right.

Yep. I think that is the biggest issue on our team right now. Cutler is the future but we need D right now. I'm hoping they finally have the D-Line they need. We'll see.

[listopencil]

We disagree, but thats cool does not really matter what the plan was, but I think the plan now is Cutler 2007. I just happen to think that is best for our Broncos.

If Cutler were to beat out Plummer to start in 2007 I would be impressed...and a very happy Bronco fan.

[Ballhawk]

Listo... I also think you're right that we've probably been targeting him for longer than just this year. Shanahan is a guy who's sort of figured he could get QB help on the cheap, so this kind of big move makes you think it's a guy they really like. (And for good reason.)

I think that if they were really planning on replacing Jake because he was holding the team back they would have done it via FA like they did before.

Exactly.

Shanahan's lack of seriousness with regards to the back-up spot speaks volumes to the supposed QB emergency the team faces.

Shanny saw an extremely talented kid who would fit nicely into our offense, and yes... probably be an upgrade to Jake at some point. Nothing wrong with that. But, if Shanahan really thought Jake was the reason we lost the Pitt game, he would have at least brought in a Jeff Garcia, or someone with some NFL experience to try to steal the job.

The other real upside to the Cutler pick as far as I'm concerned is.... it's a real indication that Shanahan is going to stick around for a while. Why draft a new toy if you never get to play with it?

I think Shanahan sees this team as one that can win now, with Jake... and one that can win in the future, with Jay. If he fixes the defense... he's right.

Shanny is a realist. Jeff Garcia or any other FA QB this year did not have the talent to replace Jake, but dont think for a second if a stud QB was out on the market Shanny would have not been in full press mode.

Jake is one weak link, but that does not mean that it could be fixed via FA. Cutler on the other hand offers along term solution that will take a year to come to fruition.

[listopencil]

Shanny is a realist. Jeff Garcia or any other FA QB this year did not have the talent to replace Jake, but dont think for a second if a stud QB was out on the market Shanny would have not been in full press mode.

Jake is one weak link, but that does not mean that it could be fixed via FA. Cutler on the other hand offers along term solution that will take a year to come to fruition.

Think about that for a second. You said that there isn't anyone out there better than Jake in FA. That's a starting point. Do you think we could have traded (picks or players) for anyone better? Because we had a lot of picks last year and we had a few players with value.

[Popps]

Shanny is a realist. Jeff Garcia or any other FA QB this year did not have the talent to replace Jake, but dont think for a second if a stud QB was out on the market Shanny would have not been in full press mode.

Again, as someone pointed out earlier, this seems to be a debate of speculation (Shanny would have pursued a big ticket QB) v. facts... he has not, over the course of three winning seasons.

This is not the first year Shanahan has had less than optimal back-ups for Jake. (And no, a rookie is not optimal.)

The fact that we don't have one even THIS year shows a lot of faith in Plummer, and yea... probably faith that he's got an above average rookie.

Jake is one weak link, but that does not mean that it could be fixed via FA.

Point is, if Shanahan truly saw it as a "weak link," he would have addressed it in FA at some point in the last three years. He did not. In fact, he's hardly had even a serviceable back-up behind him.

In other words, Listo is right on point... Cutler represents an opportunity for Shanahan, not a solution.

[Popps]

Think about that for a second. You said that there isn't anyone out there better than Jake in FA. That's a starting point. Do you think we could have traded (picks or players) for anyone better? Because we had a lot of picks last year and we had a few players with value.

We managed to find a big ticket WR and CB without much problem. If Shanny wanted a QB replacement... he would have found one.

He drafted someone to compete for the gig in a year or two. Great move. Hardly a panic move, or any indicator that he's way down on his starter.

[Ballhawk]

Again, as someone pointed out earlier, this seems to be a debate of speculation (Shanny would have pursued a big ticket QB) v. facts... he has not, over the course of three winning seasons.

This is not the first year Shanahan has had less than optimal back-ups for Jake. (And no, a rookie is not optimal.)

The fact that we don't have one even THIS year shows a lot of faith in Plummer, and yea... probably faith that he's got an above average rookie.



Point is, if Shanahan truly saw it as a "weak link," he would have addressed it in FA at some point in the last three years. He did not. In fact, he's hardly had even a serviceable back-up behind him.

In other words, Listo is right on point... Cutler represents an opportunity for Shanahan, not a solution.

Maybe, I just can't remember any good options in FA over the past three years. Hell, it even came down to Plummer vs Kordell when we went with Jake. I just believe that Shanny knew before the 2005 draft he was going to go hard after a QB in 2006.

I am not saying Jake sucks, but compared to what Shanny has had at QB (Young & Elway) Jake is no where close to what Shanny likes at the position.

[Ballhawk]

Think about that for a second. You said that there isn't anyone out there better than Jake in FA. That's a starting point. Do you think we could have traded (picks or players) for anyone better? Because we had a lot of picks last year and we had a few players with value.

To me Jake is a middle of the league QB. I can not think of any team willing to part with a QB better than that in the last 3 years. Do you remember an opportunity Shanny had to go after a QB and didn't?

I think he finally got his guy and is ready to move on.

[Popps]

I am not saying Jake sucks, but compared to what Shanny has had at QB (Young & Elway) Jake is no where close to what Shanny likes at the position.

Well, there's no doubt about that. Shanahan was spoiled with Young/Elway. He's probably trying to see if he can snag another guy like that... who would make his job much easier. Problem is, there's only been a few of those guys in the history of the game.

The rest of the teams have won with balance, and dominating defense.

[Rock Chalk]

As long as we're keeping score-

Dip****s who think a rookie QB is what will get you over the playoff hump into a Super bowl win: 0


People who know better: 1

God I love you man. Not in the gay sort of way like BroncoSoja loves Cutler, not that there's anything wrong with that. Dont ever stop posting.

[Ballhawk]

Well, there's no doubt about that. Shanahan was spoiled with Young/Elway. He's probably trying to see if he can snag another guy like that... who would make his job much easier. Problem is, there's only been a few of those guys in the history of the game.

The rest of the teams have won with balance, and dominating defense.

I believe Shanny still idolizes the SF team of the 80's. He wants a Montana/Young typ QB. Thought Griese could be Montana like, but Griese lacked leadership, Plummer lacks accuracy. He wanted a Deon type CB and chased after that with Carter and Middlebrooks until finally landing Champ. He has always wanted a Rice/Taylor combo at WR and spent plenty of resources chasing that (hopefully Walker and Marshall solve that). H wanted a Lott type S, so goes out and gets a big hitter in Lynch (and it would not surprise me if we draft a S 1st round to replace Lynch next year).

So now in his perception getting Cutler is the final piece. As I have said before, I would love to get a young talent on the Dline, but I am not going to hold my breath. Shanny rarely spends our resources on Dline, Oline or RB.

That said I do like our rotation at Dline this year, but I am not miopic enough to think they are anything more than average in the league.

[Popps]

So now in his perception getting Cutler is the final piece. As I have said before, I would love to get a young talent on the Dline, but I am not going to hold my breath. Shanny rarely spends our resources on Dline, Oline or RB..

Shanahan should also remember that that team had Bryant Young, Charles Haley and Dana Stubblefield. (the 90s team)

[Ballhawk]

Shanahan should also remember that that team had Bryant Young, Charles Haley and Dana Stubblefield. (the 90s team)

Harder to assemble with the salary cap and FA.

[24champ]

I believe Shanny still idolizes the SF team of the 80's. He wants a Montana/Young typ QB. Thought Griese could be Montana like, but Griese lacked leadership, Plummer lacks accuracy.

Well Bill Walsh said prior to the draft of Plummer that Plummer reminded him of Montana. Bill Walsh was asked to evaluate the QBs, suffice to say the Niners did not take his advice and took some retard that lasted maybe 2 years in the NFL. I forget his name...

[Bob's your Information Minister]

ROFL!

Are you suggesting the 49ers should have drafted Plummer? The only resemblance he bears to Montana is his physical style. He's got none of the other attributes that made Montana a great quarterback. NONE.

[24champ]

Of the remaining quarterbacks, Walsh recommended Plummer, who reminded him of Joe Montana in his ability to make plays.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/12/11/SP106840.DTL

[listopencil]

Well Bill Walsh said prior to the draft of Plummer that Plummer reminded him of Montana. Bill Walsh was asked to evaluate the QBs, suffice to say the Niners did not take his advice and took some retard that lasted maybe 2 years in the NFL. I forget his name...

I think that was Druckenmiller. "The Druck". I don't remember if that was the same year. I do remember Bill walsh saying that he wanted Plummer because Plummer reminded him of Montana and the 9er FO's refused to listen to him. There was speculation that this helped him make the decision to leave the franchise.

[listopencil]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/12/11/SP106840.DTL

I didn't read the article before I posted:




"MANY 49ERS fans are convinced the team ignored Bill Walsh's recommendation of Jake Plummer when choosing Jim Druckenmiller in the 1997 draft. It isn't that simple.

Going into that draft, the 49ers expected to draft an offensive lineman in the first round and then look for a quarterback in the second or third round. Walsh was asked to evaluate quarterbacks, but he told me shortly after the draft that he had not been asked to evaluate Druckenmiller because Druckenmiller was not expected to be available to the 49ers. "

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . . . . teams have won with balance, and dominating defense.

A nice one-sentence argument. As for dominating defense, well if you don't have it - despite trying for it with Shoate, Eric Brown, Berry, Hayward, Eason, IHOP, Dale Carter, Kenoy Kennedy, Toviessi, Walls, Middlebrooks, O'Neal, Terry Pierce, Al Wilson, Hunt, two Williams, Gold, Paymah, Browner, Foxworth, Champ, Lynch, Ferguson, David Gibbs, Bob Slowik, Dorsett Davis, Kawika Pitman, Leon Lett, Sam Brandon, the Browncos, Predator, Veal, etc., then you have to maybe try something else, no?

This is your Denver Bronco roster, it isn't going to change, give it a rest, eh?:

Current Roster
Number Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Birthdate Exp. College How Acq.
21 Abdullah, Hamza S 6' 2" 216 08/20/83 2nd Washington State P.S. Signee (T.B.)-'05
81 Adams, Charlie WR 6' 2" 190 10/23/79 4th Hofstra FA-'04
82 Alexander, Stephen TE 6' 4" 250 11/07/75 9th Oklahoma UFA (Det)-'05
24 Bailey, Champ CB 6' 0" 192 06/22/78 8th Georgia T (Was)-'04
26 Bell, Tatum RB 5' 11" 213 03/02/81 3rd Oklahoma State D2a-'04
20 Bell, Mike RB 6' 0" 215 04/23/83 R Arizona CFA- '06
42 Brandon, Sam S 6' 2" 200 07/05/79 5th UNLV D4-'02
98 Brown, Courtney DE 6' 4" 285 02/14/78 7th Penn State FA-'05
51 Burns, Keith LB 6' 2" 235 05/16/72 13th Oklahoma State UFA (TB)-'05
65 Carlisle, Cooper G/T 6' 5" 295 08/11/77 7th Florida D4b-'00
54 Chukwurah, Patrick LB 6' 1" 250 03/01/79 6th Wyoming FA-'04
34 Cobbs, Cedric RB 6' 0" 227 01/09/81 2nd Arkansas FA-'05
40 Cox, Curome S 6' 1" 204 02/28/81 2nd Maryland FA-04
6 Cutler, Jay QB 6' 3" 233 04/29/83 R Vanderbilt D1-'06
14 Devoe, Todd WR 6' 2" 198 04/05/80 2nd Central Missouri State FA-'05
92 Dumervil, Elvis DE 5' 11" 250 01/19/84 R Louisville D4b-'06
91 Ekuban, Ebenezer DE 6' 4" 275 05/29/76 8th North Carolina T (Cle)-'05
1 Elam, Jason K 5' 11" 200 03/08/70 14th Hawaii D3b-'93
60 Engelberger, John DE 6' 4" 252 10/18/76 7th Virginia Tech T (SF)-'05
3 Ernster, Paul K 6' 0" 217 01/26/82 2nd Northern Arizona D7-'05
25 Ferguson, Nick S 5' 11" 201 11/27/74 7th Georgia Tech FA-03
72 Foster, George T 6' 5" 338 06/09/80 4th Georgia D1-03
22 Foxworth, Domonique CB 5' 11" 180 03/27/83 2nd Maryland D3b-'05
52 Gold, Ian LB 6' 0" 223 08/23/78 7th Michigan FA-'05/ D2a-'00
53 Green, Louis LB 6' 3" 228 09/23/79 3rd Alcorn State FA-03
50 Hamilton, Ben G/C 6' 4" 283 08/18/77 6th Minnesota D4a-'01
89 Jackson, Nate TE 6' 3" 235 06/04/79 4th Menlo T (S.F.)-'03
39 Johnson, Kyle FB 6' 0" 242 12/15/78 4th Syracuse FA-'03
87 Kircus, David WR 6' 2" 192 02/19/80 3rd Grand Valley State FA-'06
73 Kuper, Chris G 6' 4" 302 12/19/82 R North Dakota D5-'06
76 Lang, Kenard DE 6' 3" 264 01/31/75 10th Miami FA-'06
83 Leach, Mike TE/LS 6' 2" 245 10/18/76 7th William & Mary FA-02
78 Lepsis, Matt T 6' 4" 290 01/13/74 10th Colorado CFA-'97
47 Lynch, John S 6' 2" 220 09/25/71 14th Stanford FA-'04
15 Marshall, Brandon WR 6' 4" 222 03/23/84 R Central Florida D4a-'06
75 Meadows, Adam T 6' 5" 290 01/25/74 8th Georgia FA-'06
85 Mustard, Chad TE 6' 6" 277 10/08/77 3rd North Dakota FA-'06
62 Myers, Chris G/C 6' 5" 300 09/15/81 2nd Miami D6-'05
96 Myers, Michael DT 6' 2" 300 01/20/76 9th Alabama T (Cle)-'05
66 Nalen, Tom C 6' 3" 286 05/13/71 13th Boston College D7c-94
41 Paymah, Karl CB 6' 0" 200 11/29/82 2nd Washington State D3a-'05
64 Pears, Erik T 6' 8" 305 06/25/82 R Colorado State CFA-'05
16 Plummer, Jake QB 6' 2" 212 12/19/74 10th Arizona St. UFA(Ari)-03
37 Sapp, Cecil RB 5' 11" 229 12/23/78 4th Colorado State CFA-'03
88 Scheffler, Tony TE 6' 5" 250 02/15/83 R Western Michigan D2-'06
80 Smith, Rod WR 6' 0" 200 05/15/70 12th Missouri Southern CFA-94
97 Veal, Demetrin DL 6' 2" 288 08/11/81 4th Tennessee FA-'04
84 Walker, Javon WR 6' 3" 209 10/14/78 5th Florida State T (GB)-'06
61 Warren, Gerard DT 6' 4" 325 07/25/78 6th Florida T (Cle) -'05
58 Webster, Nate LB 6' 0" 237 11/29/77 7th Miami (Fla.) UFA-'06
27 Williams, Darrent CB 5' 8" 188 09/27/82 2nd Oklahoma State D2-'05
55 Williams, D.J. LB 6' 1" 242 07/20/82 3rd Miami D1-'04
56 Wilson, Al LB 6' 0" 240 06/21/77 8th Tennessee D1-99

Reserve/Injured
Number Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Birthdate Exp. College How Acq.
67 Eslinger, Greg C 6' 3" 290 04/23/83 R Minnesota D6-'06
86 Trusty, Landon TE 6' 7" 266 10/09/81 2nd Central Arkansas

Practice Squad
Number Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Birthdate Exp. College How Acq.
93 Burton, Antwon DT 6' 2" 315 07/11/83 R Temple CFA- '06
19 Clark, Brian WR 6' 2" 204 12/26/83 R North Carolina State CFA- '06
94 Gordon, Amon DL 6' 2" 319 10/13/81 3rd Stanford W, (Cle.), 2006
63 Hunt, Rob G/C 6' 3" 283 03/03/81 1st North Dakota State FA-'05
29 Nash, Damien RB 5' 10" 220 04/14/82 2 Missouri FA-'06
5 Parsons, Preston QB 6' 4" 235 02/19/79 3rd Northern Arizona FA-'06
28 Shoate, Jeff CB 5' 10" 180 03/23/81 3rd San Diego State D5-04
59 Vaughn, Cameron LB 6' 4" 237 02/27/84 R Louisiana State CFA- '06

Reserve/Non-Football Injury
Number Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Birthdate Exp. College How Acq.
12 Hixon, Domenik WR 6' 2" 185 10/08/84 R Akron D4c-'06

Reserve/Suspended
Number Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Birthdate Exp. College How Acq.
10 Sauerbrun, Todd P 5' 10" 215 01/04/73 12th West Virginia T (Car)-'05

[jossjeff]

Ok...

I didn't read all of this thread but I'll just say this:

I think you will be good mulefan but I don't think you are a Super Bowl team.

I picked the Chargers to win the division and I stand by that.

Your defense is solid but it is not game changing. A lack of pass rush will hurt you in the end.

You are a playoff team but not a Super Bowl team IMO.

Plummer will only take you so far and then he will get you killed. Cutler is the future but the future is not now.

Not running smack, just stating my opinion.

[Taco John]

When you say pressure, again.. it needs context.

What's with all these qualifiers? I thought you were against qualifiers...

There is no context needed. When the pressure is on, Jake chokes. It's not just one game. It's a long term trend. Being down 17-3 isn't the end of the world, especially when you've got the ball with an opportunity to drive down the field and end the half within a touchdown. Jake choked. There's your context.

[24champ]

Your defense is solid but it is not game changing.

Really? How did the Broncos beat the Chargers at home? Cowboys on turkey day? How did the Broncos win the Patriots game? Not game changing my ass.

[jossjeff]

Really? How did the Broncos beat the Chargers at home? Cowboys on turkey day? How did the Broncos win the Patriots game? Not game changing my ass.

A lack of pass rush will hurt you in the end.


Thats why.

Being a fan is a good thing and I get that. IMO your pass rush is subpar and don't tell me that you don't know that.

Maybe you can overcome it, but I wouldn't bet on it personally.

[Taco John]

They gave up scores on the FIRST FOUR POSSESSIONS against Pitt.




Would it have made a difference if they gave up scores on only 1 of the first four possessions and then Jake threw that pick at the end of the half putting the opponent up 14-3? At what point is it ok to criticize Jake for constantly choking under pressure?

[Dedhed]

If Cutler were to beat out Plummer to start in 2007 I would be impressed...and a very happy Bronco fan.
When we drafted Cutler, I said that it was the perfect situation for a rookie to be able to come in and sit for 2-3 seasons and hit the ground running. After seeing the pre-season, I don't think Jake stands a chance of starting in
'07 unless he somewhere other than Denver.

I have been impressed with Cutler at every turn, but the single most impressive thing I've seen is his poise. In every situation; at the Senior Bowl, at the combine, during and after the draft, at OTAs, at training camp, in his first ever live NFL action, you name it, and the kid has been the definition of poise. It's the attribute that Jake lacks more than any other, and it will be sooner than later that Cutler gets to put that poise on display in a game that means something.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . At what point is it ok to criticize Jake for constantly choking under pressure?

Give it a rest until say game nine. We understand, ok? Criminy.

[24champ]

Would it have made a difference if they gave up scores on only 1 of the first four possessions and then Jake threw that pick at the end of the half putting the opponent up 14-3? At what point is it ok to criticize Jake for constantly choking under pressure?

Who cares? Thought you gave up hope on Jake anyway...

[Popps]

At what point is it ok to criticize Jake for constantly choking under pressure?

When he constantly does it.

You don't win 33 games as a starter without "pressure."

Let's remember, Jake was the QB at the helm when we made those playoff runs in the first place... or, are those void of pressure?

Again, you set up a scenario based on (false) speculation and use it as your argument, while others use factual information.

I broke down game-by-game, INT-by-INT how his five INTs across three games effected (or didn't effect) the outcome. The factual information here is that Plummer's INTs were symptomatic of an overall problem, not the cause of the problem.

Again, Champ bailey got beat badly in a couple of those losses. At what point do we start calling out Champ for being a playoff choker?

[Popps]

Would it have made a difference if they gave up scores on only 1 of the first four possessions?

You really have to be the only person on the face of the football planet that would argue that your defense allowing 4 scores is no better or worse than allowing only one.

Few others out there would be comfortable arguing with math.

Taco in grade school....

Teacher: Taco, 2+2 is 4

Taco: No it's not

Teacher: Yes it is, it's 4, Taco, that's mathematical fact.

Taco: But what if it's 3? It could be 3. It's 3.

Teacher: No Taco, it is a fact that it's 4, not 3.

Taco: I never said it was 3.



It's no minor miracle that you run such a great board, when you'd be hard pressed to spot a football in a lineup.

[NFLBRONCO]

When he constantly does it.

You don't win 33 games as a starter without "pressure."

Let's remember, Jake was the QB at the helm when we made those playoff runs in the first place... or, are those void of pressure?

Again, you set up a scenario based on (false) speculation and use it as your argument, while others use factual information.

I broke down game-by-game, INT-by-INT how his five INTs across three games effected (or didn't effect) the outcome. The factual information here is that Plummer's INTs were symptomatic of an overall problem, not the cause of the problem.

Again, Champ bailey got beat badly in a couple of those losses. At what point do we start calling out Champ for being a playoff choker?


I wish more fans would harp on Coyer as much as they do Plummer. IMO Coyer needs to step up this year as well.

[Taco John]

But, if Shanahan really thought Jake was the reason we lost the Pitt game, he would have at least brought in a Jeff Garcia, or someone with some NFL experience to try to steal the job.




He tried... Remember?

[Taco John]

When he constantly does it.



Yeah... So now that we've passed that marker...

Hey, I think Jake will make a fine regular season quarterback, so long as we don't get into a race at the end like in 2004. If we stay on top of the division, we'll be ok. Once we reach the playoffs, it's time for Plummer to prove it again. Think he can make it though a game without throwing a pick, or are you going to throw out a bunch of qualifiers and blame Shanahan for using him wrong like you've been doing in this thread. Our game plan was fine. We just didn't execute.

[Dedhed]

When he constantly does it.

You don't win 33 games as a starter without "pressure."

Actually I think you do. Last year we won a number of games that the defense was completely dominant for the first half. COMPLETELY. And in almost every game where we weren't ahead comfotably at half time Jake nearly blew it. Washington; Jake did nothing, and Tatum and the D bailed us out. Dallas, under the national spotlight and Jake ends his ni INT streak by throwing an untimely INT after a miserable offensive performance. Dayne and Champ come through. And in the playoffs Jake was nothing to write home about, and we managed to win one because of yet another Champ miracle. The one game that the defense was flat, and we got pounded because the pressure was on Jake.

[Taco John]

Again, you set up a scenario based on (false) speculation and use it as your argument, while others use factual information.



Fact: if our offense scores a touchdown in the clutch at the end of the first half of football, we are at 10-17 going into the locker room on a high note after a rough half. Fact, Jake Plummer choked and threw an interception.

You were saying?

[Taco John]

You really have to be the only person on the face of the football planet that would argue that your defense allowing 4 scores is no better or worse than allowing only one.

Few others out there would be comfortable arguing with math.

Taco in grade school....

Teacher: Taco, 2+2 is 4

Taco: No it's not

Teacher: Yes it is, it's 4, Taco, that's mathematical fact.

Taco: But what if it's 3? It could be 3. It's 3.

Teacher: No Taco, it is a fact that it's 4, not 3.

Taco: I never said it was 3.



It's no minor miracle that you run such a great board, when you'd be hard pressed to spot a football in a lineup.


It's hilarious to me that you harp on "context" while completely ignoring the context on which those four touchdowns Pittsburgh had were scored under. That why your arguments are holding no water here. Let me give you another fact: Pittsburgh scored only 13 points on drives that started on their side of the field.

I understand why you're partial about when you apply the "context" argument. Your arguments would be obliterated if you had to take under consideration the context that our offense choked away the field position battle, or that we would have been within one touchdown if Jake had the stones to lead this team to a clutch touchdown at the end of the half.

Keep pretending that you're the only person with a point here, and that the rest of us are brainless against your awesome arguments...

[Rock Chalk]

You really have to be the only person on the face of the football planet that would argue that your defense allowing 4 scores is no better or worse than allowing only one.

Few others out there would be comfortable arguing with math.

Taco in grade school....

Teacher: Taco, 2+2 is 4

Taco: No it's not

Teacher: Yes it is, it's 4, Taco, that's mathematical fact.

Taco: But what if it's 3? It could be 3. It's 3.

Teacher: No Taco, it is a fact that it's 4, not 3.

Taco: I never said it was 3.



It's no minor miracle that you run such a great board, when you'd be hard pressed to spot a football in a lineup.

I dont know if thats accurate but it sure as hell was funny :D

[Popps]

Fact: if our offense scores a touchdown in the clutch at the end of the first half of football, we are at 10-17 going into the locker room on a high note after a rough half. Fact, Jake Plummer choked and threw an interception.

You were saying?

Sure, and UFO's could have landed on the field and replaced our defense with a more talented, mutant-alien squad.

Again, you talk about "could haves" instead of what DID happen.

What DID happen was our defense came out (true to the form of the last two losses) and absolutely laid down.

The good news was, we didn't allow Rothlisberger a playoff record in the first half like we did Manning.

Of course, we allowed manning numbers that may never be surpassed, so I suppose that would be asking a lot.

But, yea... that INT at half-time really made the difference.

Again... Pitt's first 5 drives in the Superbowl...

-PUNT
-PUNT
-PUNT
-INT
(Two of those punt on 3 and outs)

Yet, they won. Their championship defense stepped up and did what championship defenses do.

[maven]

This is funny! This thread will never die! Start Cutler in 2006!

Pom poms please!

:egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb:

CUTLER STARTS IN 2006!

:egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb: :egbgb:

[Taco John]

Again, you talk about "could haves" instead of what DID happen.



DID Jake choke when he had the opportunity to drive the team to a clutch touchdown and bring the game to within one touchdown, or didn't he? What are you talking about? I'm absolutely talking about what DID happen.

[Turf Shaman]

I wouldn't say I hope Jake goes down, but I wouldn't be pulling my hair our either (as opposed to the past three seasons, when I would have). This feels like a bit of a transition year, which is odd because the team obviously has legit Super Bowl aspirations, but EVERYONE knows this is Jake's last year here. Even Jake knows it. I'm not even sure Jake could save his place in Denver if he won the Super Bowl, honestly. It would take some kind of legendary, heroic, come from behind Super Bowl MVP type performance for him to stick around. And even then, the moment he fails to repeat such a performance on the final game of the season will be his last as a Bronco.

[Popps]

DID Jake choke when he had the opportunity to drive the team to a clutch touchdown and bring the game to within one touchdown, or didn't he? What are you talking about? I'm absolutely talking about what DID happen.

He threw one INT near half-time. The defense could have easily stepped up and made their FIRST STOP OF THE DAY.

Instead, they laid right down and allowed yet another score.

Again, Pitt went 0-5 on their first 5 drives with an INT, and won.

They have a playoff defense, we don't.

Or what.. is it their dominant offense led by Hall of Famer Ben Rothlisberger?

lol!

[24champ]

I wouldn't say I hope Jake goes down, but I wouldn't be pulling my hair our either (as opposed to the past three seasons, when I would have). This feels like a bit of a transition year, which is odd because the team obviously has legit Super Bowl aspirations, but EVERYONE knows this is Jake's last year here. Even Jake knows it. I'm not even sure Jake could save his place in Denver if he won the Super Bowl, honestly. It would take some kind of legendary, heroic, come from behind Super Bowl MVP type performance for him to stick around. And even then, the moment he fails to repeat such a performance on the final game of the season will be his last as a Bronco.

Jake is worried about THIS year and getting us to the fcking Superbowl. That is all he cares about, he could give a rats ass about who is coming up behind him. He also doesnt give a crap if fans gave up hope on him because his Coach and teammates believe in him.

[Taco John]

so much so that his coach drafted his replacement...

[24champ]

so much so that his coach drafted his replacement...

who is on the bench...

[Popps]

I wish more fans would harp on Coyer as much as they do Plummer. IMO Coyer needs to step up this year as well.

It's always easiest to blame the QB. There are people who blame Manning for Indy's playoff losses. People call him a "choker." People called Elway a choker.

Plummer is neither of those two, obviously... but he's plenty capable. He's won high pressure games for three seasons now. It's just that when we get into the playoffs, we're playing the best of the best, and our defense is never ready for that challenge.

You don't protect your defense with your offense, it's the other way around.
Simple, NFL history.

[baja]

You guys can go on forever and neither will budge an inch.

I see it as Pittsburg showed up that day and we didn't, coaches included.

If I had to blame one person the most it would be Coyer.

How many third and longs was that again?

[wabbit]

Regardless of how you feel about the argument, there is one major...huge even...positive; Denver now has one of the best situations any team can possibly have at QB.

While I liked, and still like Bradlee Van Pelt (his potential anyway), I was very concerned what might become of the season should Plummer get hurt.

Now, despite the fact that Cutler is a rookie, I feel pretty damn good about the whole thing.

Don't let the myopic rantings of a stooge like Bobo mislead you, this team is loaded.

Should be fun almost no matter what happens...not too many teams have that luxury.

[Taco John]

It's always easiest to blame the QB.


Yeah, it takes a particular brand of deep thinker to ignore the fact that you're quarterback chokes damn nearly every time he's asked to do something under pressure.

[Taco John]

Regardless of how you feel about the argument, there is one major...huge even...positive; Denver now has one of the best situations any team can possibly have at QB.

While I liked, and still like Bradlee Van Pelt (his potential anyway), I was very concerned what might become of the season should Plummer get hurt.

Now, despite the fact that Cutler is a rookie, I feel pretty damn good about the whole thing.

Don't let the myopic rantings of a stooge like Bobo mislead you, this team is loaded.

Should be fun almost no matter what happens...not too many teams have that luxury.


Cage match. Wabbit and Mark Knudson. GO! :wave:

/did you catch Mark's article that said we were screwed if Plummer got hurt Wabbit?

[wabbit]

Cage match. Wabbit and Mark Knudson. GO! :wave:

/did you catch Mark's article that said we were screwed if Plummer got hurt Wabbit?

No, actually I didn't, but I disagree.

It would be rough at times...just as it was with Elway, & Denver might lose a game or two they otherwise wouldn't have, but the experience factor would move Cutler ahead exponentially, so I wouldn't care.

Elways' first team overcame his mistakes & made the play-offs. I would expect no less if Cutler took over for whatever reason, given the talent & depth of this team.

Don't get me wrong; I don't WANT Cutler to have to play this year...just my personal bias, but IF he does, he will learn quickly..much to Denvers benefit.

[SprintRightOption]

Wow, I read this entire thread all the way through.

The internet really brings out the worst kind of fans. Really. Schadenfreude, habitually being an asss, selective reasoning, logical fallacies, lack of perspective, whining, crybabies. It's not just Bronco fans, it's all fans. Look how many Dolfans have decided the season is over because they lost the opener at the defending champs, when they had a 4th quarter lead.

It really seems like the people in this thread who are big Plummer bashers are hoping for bad things to happen with him at the helm. All the bluster and emphatic arguing: there is so much at stake, some people would rather Plummer fail and our team lose games, because that will prove them right, or add evidence to their arguments. It's a bit sad.

Anyone who considers the 49-24 loss in Indy a choke on Plummer's part, or places primary blame on him for that game is living in a fantasy world. He certainly didn't play nearly as well as Peyton that day, but COME ON. Lost the field position battles? Choked? Look at Indy's drive lengths:

1 - After Denver's first drive netted 28 yards and 3 minutes, Indy goes 78 yards for the TD.

2 - Denver goes 3 and out, but we ran Bell on 2nd and 3rd down. Indy then goes 87 yards for a TD.

3 - Plummer throws a Pick but it results in no point as Indy turns it back over. Bad, but doesn't really throw the game away

4 - Plummer hit as he releases ball on next drive on 3rd down, bad blocking. Indy returns a short punt to good field position, goes 53 yards for a TD in 4 plays.

5 - Denver drives down the field, gets a field goal. Shanny opts for onside kick, it fails, and Indy drives 45 yards in 4 plays for another TD.

6 - Jailbreak rush sacks plummer on second down, Shanny calls screen on 3rd down that is stopped. Indy then drives 76 yards for another TD. 35-3, it's halftime, and this game is o-vah.

Plummer didn't have a great half, but the defense gives up 5 TD (3 very long) another drive they pick it off after Indy drives to the 3 yard line. 1 punt. If Plummer had gotten 2 more TDs, at 35-17 would it really have made a difference? I think not. To call this a plummer choke is pretty ridiculous. A defense getting bent over is more like it.

Yeah, you can say Plummer choked in the Pitt game, but the D choked just as bad. What was it, 7-9 on 3rd downs in the first half, most of them long yardage?

People have decided plummer is no good, and facts be damned. A little revisionist history here, a little double standard there, maybe few intellectually dishonest conclusions thrown in, and a cute little world is created where your agenda is fact, not opinion. Karl Rove would be proud.

And Taco, it's just a little weak to say things like plummer has had "more 20+ interception seasons" since coming from Arizona. He had 7 in '03, 20 in '04, and 7 in 05. Or that Plummer is incapable of playing from behind. In truth, he is the active leader in 4th quarter comebacks in the NFL. Or that Shanahan could use Cutler to guide the Broncos to more success this year, considering what he has done with someone as bad as Plummer, in your opinion. Remember Ben Roth in '04? With the best running game and #1 defense he kept winning. But he was a joke the last 3rd of the season and in the playoffs, and he was by far the best rookie QB in 20 years. Not to mention his line or receivers. It's just crap to think we're better off with Cutler this whole year. I remember your unending defense of Griese here and at the DPO in 2000-02 for much worse football than Plummer, and it really is telling to see how you and some others argue a 180 when it's Plummer.

[maven]

While I liked, and still like Bradlee Van Pelt (his potential anyway), I was very concerned what might become of the season should Plummer get hurt.



I enjoy your commentary Wabbit. But seriously, people around here are looney. Maybe it's because I don't live in CO. What did you see in BVP? I don't understand the BVP homers around here. This guy couldn't throw for ****! I mean he couldn't throw a pass to save his life. Did you people think he would eventually LEARN how to do this? Damn, I thought he was a waste of time & thankfully he's finally gone.

[Taco John]

some people would rather Plummer fail and our team lose games, because that will prove them right, or add evidence to their arguments. It's a bit sad.


I don't know anyone who wants Plummer to fail. That seems pretty silly.

[wabbit]

I enjoy your commentary Wabbit. But seriously, people around here are looney. Maybe it's because I don't live in CO. What did you see in BVP? I don't understand the BVP homers around here. This guy couldn't throw for ****! I mean he couldn't throw a pass to save his life. Did you people think he would eventually LEARN how to do this? Damn, I thought he was a waste of time & thankfully he's finally gone.

I liked the fact that he is an athlete in the truest sense & wants to play professional football more than anything else in the world.

He's coachable to the 'N'th degree...a project, yes, but, in my humble opinion, a determination that successful people...in any business...are made of.

Hey, I look around at the Brooks, Voleks, Grieses, Losmans & Bollingers that populate NFL rosters & figure if these fellows can make a team, Bradlee Van Pelt has a place.

[Clockwork Orange]

I don't know anyone who wants Plummer to fail. That seems pretty silly.

We have 45 people here who voted that they want him to get injured.

[maven]

I liked the fact that he is an athlete in the truest sense & wants to play professional football more than anything else in the world.

He's coachable to the 'N'th degree...a project, yes, but, in my humble opinion, a determination that successful people...in any business...are made of.

Hey, I look around at the Brooks, Voleks, Grieses, Losmans & Bollingers that populate NFL rosters & figure if these fellows can make a team, Bradlee Van Pelt has a place.

Wouldn't you think this guy would've been better switching positions rather than trying to become a QB?

Some players embrace a position switch(Matt Jones). Some players do not(K. Stewart,). You could say if Eric Crouch embraced the position switch TO safety he might still be in the NFL today. If BVP made the switch to another position, he might of prolonged his NFL career. IMO he's not good enough to run an AFL team as QB.

[wabbit]

Wouldn't you think this guy would've been better switching positions rather than trying to become a QB?

Some players embrace a position switch(Matt Jones). Some players do not(K. Stewart,). You could say if Eric Crouch embraced the position switch TO safety he might still be in the NFL today. If BVP made the switch to another position, he might of prolonged his NFL career.


Maybe. But at the moment, he wants to try & make it as a QB, and I think someone else will give him a chance...even if he has to play in Canada or the arena league.

Personally, I believe he will make it at some level...and enjoy himself thoroughly.

[No1BroncoFan]

Our game plan was fine. We just didn't execute.
In a run oriented offense we ran the ball a total of 14 times. We abandoned the run well before the game was out of hand. Nine times in the first half. This is a "fine" gameplan to you? That's a steaming load and you know it.

Ben

[Taco John]

We have 45 people here who voted that they want him to get injured.

I think that's misleading. For my part, I didn't vote because I knew how it would be spun. I don't think people want to see Plummer injured so much as they're anxious to see what Cutler can do in a real game situation.

I'm not in favor of anyone being injured. I'm just in favor of getting our best arm on the field and getting experience. Especially if the argument I'm hearing is true, and we don't have a defensive line good enough to win a Superbowl with Plummer. Why waste time if that's the case?

[Taco John]

In a run oriented offense we ran the ball a total of 14 times. We abandoned the run well before the game was out of hand. Nine times in the first half. This is a "fine" gameplan to you? That's a steaming load and you know it.

Ben


God forbid Shanahan ask his $40 million dollar quarterback to execute and score a touchdown in the first half of football and keep our team within one touchdown going into halftime. Yeah, Shanahan simply doesn't know how to use Plummer.

[BroncoBuff]

We have 45 people here who voted that they want him to get injured.

Just a little, itsy-bitsy owie ;D

[Clockwork Orange]

I think that's misleading. For my part, I didn't vote because I knew how it would be spun. I don't think people want to see Plummer injured so much as they're anxious to see what Cutler can do in a real game situation.

I'm not in favor of anyone being injured. I'm just in favor of getting our best arm on the field and getting experience. Especially if the argument I'm hearing is true, and we don't have a defensive line good enough to win a Superbowl with Plummer. Why waste time if that's the case?

Of course you would want to label it as misleading, it speaks pretty ill of you and those who agree with you. I'm not big on wishing injury on anyone, let alone the starting QB of your own team. Pretty ****ing low rent, but nothing surprises me around here anymore.

Please, keep telling me how it's OK for people to hope that Plummer gets banged up just because they can't hold their wad when it comes to Jay Cutler.

[No1BroncoFan]

DID Jake choke when he had the opportunity to drive the team to a clutch touchdown and bring the game to within one touchdown, or didn't he? What are you talking about? I'm absolutely talking about what DID happen.
No TJ, you've been talking incessantly about how we could have driven for a TD. The fact is that we could have driven for a FG, or a turnover on downs, or a fumble after a catch, or... Your hypothetical 17-10 score is almost as bad as your hypothetical timeline for the Colts playoff game where you "proved" we would have won.

I can play thet game too though...
Champ had two possible interceptions that he missed. We could have capitalized on those and we could have scored on the resulting drives therefore Champ Baily choked and cost us the game.

Fortunately, I don't try to pin the blame (or the credit) on a single player or unit. The entire team got their asses handed to them. O-line, d-line, receivers, secondary, everybody.

Ben

[Taco John]

Maybe. But at the moment, he wants to try & make it as a QB, and I think someone else will give him a chance...even if he has to play in Canada or the arena league.

Personally, I believe he will make it at some level...and enjoy himself thoroughly.

By all accounts I've heard, BVP is a genuinely good guy, (if you like and appreciate jocks, that is, which I do). I wish him the best. I just don't personally believe he'll ever be an NFL calibre QB, and that includes back-up. I was just so thouroughly unimpressed with his play last year in the San Francisco pre-season game that it's really tainted my opinion of his ability to quarterback. That was against third string scrubs, and he still struggled to complete a pass.

I hope the best for him on his journey to be a quarterback at whatever level. I just think that he'd be better off using his athleticism to contribute somewhere and make the most out of the opportunity he has to use his skill to maximize his earning potential. hmmm... my sentances are starting to run-on. I just had a couple of scotch's with my father-in-law while watching the Oregon game. My kitty just ran across the room... He's possessed by the devil himself.

[maven]

We have 45 people here who voted that they want him to get injured.

Who said anything about getting injured? Did you ever think that maybe some fans want the future to start now rather than later? I believe potential QB's should be thrown into the wolves right off the back. Cutler is ready to take that step. Cutler doesn't need a clipboard, he needs gameday experience. Throw him in now. Get him ready. He is our future. Plummer is not. This team is going to the superbowl and winning on Cutler's arm, not Plummer. I believe in him & he will get us a superbowl victory. Plummer...

[BroncoBuff]

Come on, CO ... it wasn't a serious "wishing injury" question ....


It was a rhetorical, "wouldn't it be nice if Jake stubbed his toe and we could watch Cutler play some" kind of question.


Don't over-think it.

[Clockwork Orange]

Who said anything about getting injured? Did you ever think that maybe some fans want the future to start now rather than later? I believe potential QB's should be thrown into the wolves right off the back. Cutler is ready to take that step. Cutler doesn't need a clipboard, he needs gameday experience. Throw him in now. Get him ready. He is our future. Plummer is not. This team is going to the superbowl and winning on Cutler's arm, not Plummer. I believe in him & he will get us a superbowl victory. Plummer...

It was the original question posed in this thread.

Plummer gets a little owie and misses a couple of games this season so you can see what Jay can do?

If you voted yes, you voted that you want to see Plummer get injured and miss a couple of games, regardless of how anyone wants to spin it.

[BroncoBuff]

hmmm... my sentances are starting to run-on. I just had a couple of scotch's with my father-in-law while watching the Oregon game. My kitty just ran across the room... He's possessed by the devil himself.

This is NOT Taco John.

We know who drinks too much and then watches his cat get possessed by the devil... ;D

[Clockwork Orange]

Come on, CO ... it wasn't a serious "wishing injury" question ....


It was a rhetorical, "wouldn't it be nice if Jake stubbed his toe and we could watch Cutler play some" kind of question.


Don't over-think it.

Whatever makes you and everyone else feel better about it.

[BroncoBuff]

That's the question I was answering anyway ...

OK fess up how many of you secretly hope.... Plummer gets a little owie and misses a couple of games this season so you can see what Jay can do?

I was NOT "wishing injury" when I voted yes.

[Taco John]

No TJ, you've been talking incessantly about how we could have driven for a TD. The fact is that we could have driven for a FG, or a turnover on downs, or a fumble after a catch, or... Your hypothetical 17-10 score is almost as bad as your hypothetical timeline for the Colts playoff game where you "proved" we would have won.

I can play thet game too though...
Champ had two possible interceptions that he missed. We could have capitalized on those and we could have scored on the resulting drives therefore Champ Baily choked and cost us the game.

Fortunately, I don't try to pin the blame (or the credit) on a single player or unit. The entire team got their asses handed to them. O-line, d-line, receivers, secondary, everybody.

Ben


First of all, this myth that I pin the entire loss on Jake will persist, but is untrue. My criticism of Jake is that he choked when we needed him to lead. Not that he lost us the game. He contributed to the loss, to be sure, thanks to choking when we needed him to step up.

Second of all, this coddling of Jake and pardoning him for not driving our offense to at least ONE touchdown at home in the first half of football isn't going to stop on the part of the Plummer protectors, but it's still not a ridiculous notion. It *shouldn't* be too much to ask your offense to respond to the situation and put your team in the game when the opportunity presents itself. In every playoff game that we've lost, Plummer has been presented with an opportunity to get our team back in the game. Every time that opportunity has presented itself he's choked and thrown an interception.

So, no, I'm not blaming Plummer for losing. The losses are team losses. I'm just blaming him for choking nearly every time the opportunity has presented itself for him to do something special.

[baja]

I think that's misleading. For my part, I didn't vote because I knew how it would be spun. I don't think people want to see Plummer injured so much as they're anxious to see what Cutler can do in a real game situation.

I'm not in favor of anyone being injured. I'm just in favor of getting our best arm on the field and getting experience. Especially if the argument I'm hearing is true, and we don't have a defensive line good enough to win a Superbowl with Plummer. Why waste time if that's the case?

When I made the poll I limited the "injury" to two games. I assumed folks would understand the intent was more about getting a chance to see what Jay could do. Those of you that are bashing the injury aspect i think know the intent of the poll and chose to blow out of proportion the injury thing.

Oh he wants our QB to be injured, bad baja bad!!!!

[Clockwork Orange]

When I made the poll I limited the "injury" to two games. I assumed folks would understand the intent was more about getting a chance to see what Jay could do. Those of you that are bashing the injury aspect i think know the intent of the poll and chose to blow out of proportion the injury thing.

Oh he wants our QB to be injured, bad baja bad!!!!

Again, whatever makes you feel better about it.

[No1BroncoFan]

I don't know anyone who wants Plummer to fail. That seems pretty silly.
C'mon TJ, you can man up and admit it. Then you could feel vindicated.

Ben

[wabbit]

...I just don't personally believe he'll ever be an NFL calibre QB, and that includes back-up...

I do believe he could be an NFL caliber QB. I have no credentials to validate that statement other than observation & personal accounts, but I see enough talent to develop, if a team could spend the time & resources...which they really can't these days.

His best avenue will be Canada or the arena league, if only to see for himself.

[Taco John]

This is NOT Taco John.

We know who drinks too much and then watches his cat get possessed by the devil... ;D

Have I boasted to you how much money I've donated to the USO lately? I'll bet you've never donated to the USO. Dimwit.

[BroncoBuff]

I'll miss that Jay Cutler ....


"Iron-Man" Jake is back in the saddle again.

[maven]

It was the original question posed in this thread.



If you voted yes, you voted that you want to see Plummer get injured and miss a couple of games, regardless of how anyone wants to spin it.

The thread originated if an owie was to occur...

Let's be real, the thread was about whether you think Cutler should get playing time or not this season.

[baja]

Of course you would want to label it as misleading, it speaks pretty ill of you and those who agree with you. I'm not big on wishing injury on anyone, let alone the starting QB of your own team. Pretty ****ing low rent, but nothing surprises me around here anymore.

Please, keep telling me how it's OK for people to hope that Plummer gets banged up just because they can't hold their wad when it comes to Jay Cutler.

When I made the poll I limited the "injury" to two games. I assumed folks would understand the intent was more about getting a chance to see what Jay could do. Those of you that are bashing the injury aspect i think know the intent of the poll and chose to blow out of proportion the injury thing.

Oh he wants our QB to be injured, bad baja bad!!!!

Sometimes I think Becky4j has about seven active accounts here

The whine about injury is horse shiit

[Taco John]

I do believe he could be an NFL caliber QB. I have no credentials to validate that statement other than observation & personal accounts, but I see enough talent to develop, if a team could spend the time & resources...which they really can't these days.

His best avenue will be Canada or the arena league, if only to see for himself.

You gotta respect a guy who never says die and chases the dream to whatever conclusion it comes to. God knows I love an underdog. Here's hoping he wins multiple Grey Cups and finds his way back into the NFL.

[Rock Chalk]

Wow, I read this entire thread all the way through.

The internet really brings out the worst kind of fans. Really. Schadenfreude, habitually being an asss, selective reasoning, logical fallacies, lack of perspective, whining, crybabies. It's not just Bronco fans, it's all fans. Look how many Dolfans have decided the season is over because they lost the opener at the defending champs, when they had a 4th quarter lead.

It really seems like the people in this thread who are big Plummer bashers are hoping for bad things to happen with him at the helm. All the bluster and emphatic arguing: there is so much at stake, some people would rather Plummer fail and our team lose games, because that will prove them right, or add evidence to their arguments. It's a bit sad.

Anyone who considers the 49-24 loss in Indy a choke on Plummer's part, or places primary blame on him for that game is living in a fantasy world. He certainly didn't play nearly as well as Peyton that day, but COME ON. Lost the field position battles? Choked? Look at Indy's drive lengths:

1 - After Denver's first drive netted 28 yards and 3 minutes, Indy goes 78 yards for the TD.

2 - Denver goes 3 and out, but we ran Bell on 2nd and 3rd down. Indy then goes 87 yards for a TD.

3 - Plummer throws a Pick but it results in no point as Indy turns it back over. Bad, but doesn't really throw the game away

4 - Plummer hit as he releases ball on next drive on 3rd down, bad blocking. Indy returns a short punt to good field position, goes 53 yards for a TD in 4 plays.

5 - Denver drives down the field, gets a field goal. Shanny opts for onside kick, it fails, and Indy drives 45 yards in 4 plays for another TD.

6 - Jailbreak rush sacks plummer on second down, Shanny calls screen on 3rd down that is stopped. Indy then drives 76 yards for another TD. 35-3, it's halftime, and this game is o-vah.

Plummer didn't have a great half, but the defense gives up 5 TD (3 very long) another drive they pick it off after Indy drives to the 3 yard line. 1 punt. If Plummer had gotten 2 more TDs, at 35-17 would it really have made a difference? I think not. To call this a plummer choke is pretty ridiculous. A defense getting bent over is more like it.

Yeah, you can say Plummer choked in the Pitt game, but the D choked just as bad. What was it, 7-9 on 3rd downs in the first half, most of them long yardage?

People have decided plummer is no good, and facts be damned. A little revisionist history here, a little double standard there, maybe few intellectually dishonest conclusions thrown in, and a cute little world is created where your agenda is fact, not opinion. Karl Rove would be proud.

And Taco, it's just a little weak to say things like plummer has had "more 20+ interception seasons" since coming from Arizona. He had 7 in '03, 20 in '04, and 7 in 05. Or that Plummer is incapable of playing from behind. In truth, he is the active leader in 4th quarter comebacks in the NFL. Or that Shanahan could use Cutler to guide the Broncos to more success this year, considering what he has done with someone as bad as Plummer, in your opinion. Remember Ben Roth in '04? With the best running game and #1 defense he kept winning. But he was a joke the last 3rd of the season and in the playoffs, and he was by far the best rookie QB in 20 years. Not to mention his line or receivers. It's just crap to think we're better off with Cutler this whole year. I remember your unending defense of Griese here and at the DPO in 2000-02 for much worse football than Plummer, and it really is telling to see how you and some others argue a 180 when it's Plummer.

Just wow. :notworthy

Best post in a whole ****ing year.

[ClevelandBronco]

This is NOT Taco John.

We know who drinks too much and then watches his cat get possessed by the devil... ;D


Good catch.

[Clockwork Orange]

You wound me, baja. Really. ::)

[BroncoBuff]

When I made the poll I limited the "injury" to two games. I assumed folks would understand the intent was more about getting a chance to see what Jay could do.
That's how I understood it when I voted YES

[Taco John]

Just wow. :notworthy

Best post in a whole ****ing year.



[insert crude and completely vulgar comment about Alec verbally fellating anyone who criticizes anything that I say here] :clown:

[BroncoBuff]

[insert crude and completely vulgar comment about Alec verbally fellating anyone who criticizes anything that I say here] :clown:

LOL

[24champ]

By all accounts I've heard, BVP is a genuinely good guy, (if you like and appreciate jocks, that is, which I do). I wish him the best. I just don't personally believe he'll ever be an NFL calibre QB, and that includes back-up. I was just so thouroughly unimpressed with his play last year in the San Francisco pre-season game that it's really tainted my opinion of his ability to quarterback. That was against third string scrubs, and he still struggled to complete a pass.

Did you not entertain the thought that BVP should start after the loss to Miami?

[Taco John]

Did you not entertain the thought that BVP should start after the loss to Miami?


Jesus, no. Good Christ!

[No1BroncoFan]

First of all, this myth that I pin the entire loss on Jake will persist, but is untrue.
Yes it will, as long as you continue to carp incessantly about Plummer and not point out that the team crapped all over themselves.

Second of all, this coddling of Jake and pardoning him for not driving our offense to at least ONE touchdown at home in the first half of football isn't going to stop on the part of the Plummer protectors, but it's still not a ridiculous notion. It *shouldn't* be too much to ask your offense to respond to the situation and put your team in the game when the opportunity presents itself. In every playoff game that we've lost, Plummer has been presented with an opportunity to get our team back in the game. Every time that opportunity has presented itself he's choked and thrown an interception.
And here we are back to picking Plummer's performance out of the pack...

So, no, I'm not blaming Plummer for losing. The losses are team losses. I'm just blaming him for choking nearly every time the opportunity has presented itself for him to do something special.
And again... You keep hammering at (and many of us agree) that Plummer is not the type of QB that will pull you out of 21-point holes and yet you give the defense a pass for allowing those holes in the first place.

Cutler won't be able to do it against playoff defenses either TJ. Really, he won't. What will your argument be then?

Ben

[baja]

You wound me, baja. Really. ::)

Well quit making a mountain out of a mole hill than.

That was not the focus of the poll and you know it Clock!

[Clockwork Orange]

Well quit making a mountain out of a mole hill than.

That was not the focus of the poll and you know it Clock!

Sure thing, slugger.

Enjoy the season.

[24champ]

Jesus, no. Good Christ!
.
Originally Posted by Taco John
I thought Jake looked horrid. I was ready to see BVP by the end of the third quarter. I don't know if BVP can play at this level, but he couldn't do any worse than Plummer was doing out there. I'm a big fan of the "if your veteran plays like a rookie, why not start the rookie" philosophy.

[Taco John]

.

Yeah, in that lost cause of a game... I wasn't advocating him start the entire season. Jake was playing like such garbage that game that it wouldn't hurt throwing Brad in there to see what he could do. But no way in hell did I want to see him start the entire season.

So no... like the quote says... I was ready to see him in there at "the end of the third quarter", not starting for the rest of the season. And also, like the quote says "I don't know if BVP can play at this level".

But nice try.

[Rock Chalk]

[insert crude and completely vulgar comment about Alec verbally fellating anyone who criticizes anything that I say here] :clown:

Sinkin to my level?

We can go there if'n that's what ya want ;D

Go read that post and tell me that was not a fantastic post. Read it from a perspective of not having anything to do with you or your opinion. Everything about that post was fantastic. Wording, politeness, adroitness, logical, factual, organized, well thought out. SO me complimenting a post like that is not verbal fellatio, just recognition for a well written opinion.

I have comlimented Beerslug from time to time on his opinions that I do not agree with. Is that verbal fellatio bud?

[maven]

Start Cutler in 2006!

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . .. At what point do we start calling out Champ for being a playoff choker?

I've done that many a post. Good of you to open up your repertoire.

[Pezman]

Broncos = Good
Beer = Good ;D
Posting while drinking = Bad Ha!

Reminds me of the old Becky vs the world days here on the mane. Baja, you know its bad juju just to even mention her name the morning of kickoff of the season!

[Rock Chalk]

Bad Pez!

[maven]

Again, Champ bailey got beat badly in a couple of those losses. At what point do we start calling out Champ for being a playoff choker?


C'mon Popps. You know damn well the **** we bring on the defensive line is the real culprit. Don't drift from this.

[Taco John]

"Brad Johnson is an elite quarterback"

"The field position battle doesn't matter."

"It's ok for your quarterback to choke if the pressure is too high."

"At what point do we start calling out Champ for being a playoff choker?"

The hits keep comin'!

[24champ]

Yeah, in that lost cause of a game... I wasn't advocating him start the entire season. Jake was playing like such garbage that game that it wouldn't hurt throwing Brad in there to see what he could do. But no way in hell did I want to see him start the entire season.

So no... like the quote says... I was ready to see him in there at "the end of the third quarter", not starting for the rest of the season. And also, like the quote says "I don't know if BVP can play at this level".

But nice try.

Where did I say you wanted BVP to start the whole season? The last sentence you indicated you wanted to see BVP in a start. Plus later on in the thread you mention it again...Just saying it is odd that you say BVP was horrible in pre-season and I suppose you wanted him to start after Miami to somehow get Plummer on the right track.

You must not be too familiar with our head coach.

Let me introduce you to the man who once started a virtual rookie against the Dolphins in week one:

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nfl/denver/ShanahanDen.jpg

[Taco John]

thwack Did you not entertain the thought that BVP should start after the loss to Miami?

[24champ]

thwack

You can read Taco right? Ok where is the word SEASON in that post?

[Taco John]

The last sentence you indicated you wanted to see BVP in a start.


No I didn't. The last sentence indicated a philosophy that I have when a veteran plays bad for a prolonged period of time, not advocating that BVP start in week two. Again, nice try.

[Taco John]

You can read Taco right? Ok where is the word SEASON in that post?

You can read right? Where did I advocate that BVP start at all?

I was all for yanking Plummer in the third quarter to send a message and putting BVP in to see what he could do under the circumstances.

This is pretty weak.

[24champ]

I was all for yanking Plummer in the third quarter to send a message and putting BVP in to see what he could do under the circumstances.

what message is that? That we have a sh!ttier QB than Plummer?

[Popps]

Second of all, this coddling of Jake and pardoning him for not driving our offense to at least ONE touchdown at home in the first half of football isn't going to stop

No one is pardoning him.

People are trying to explain to you that SITUATIONS dictate what happens.

Elway was the best QB to ever play the game, but was held to 10 pts in two different Superbowls. Now, should is it "pardoning" him to say that his poor performance wasn't the reason we lost the game?

After all, he didn't "step up like a leader" when we needed him to.

IT DOESN'T MATTER that they were different caliber QBs. The scenario is the same. Both performed well during the season, then got buried at some point in the playoffs.

Is it pardoning Elway to say that he wasn't the reason we lost those games?

Is it pardoning Elway to say that the SITUATION was a contributing factor to his poor play?

Pitt's D had a lead, all the momentum, we had abandoned the running game and they KNEW we were in pass-only mode before half. Jake threw a ball up that he shouldn't have.

Now.... do you REALLY define that as choking, Taco? Really? That's choking?

See, to me, choking is when you blow a lead, or throw a crucial pick in a tie game... or miss a short put to win the Masters. But, throwing a half-time INT when your team was in the process of being blown out..... "choking?"

I think you know better, but you need it to suit your agenda, so logic and situational details are never going to enter your posts. It's just going to be one-liners, assumptions and "what ifs."

[Popps]

Wow, I read this entire thread all the way through. I remember your unending defense of Griese here and at the DPO in 2000-02 for much worse football than Plummer, and it really is telling to see how you and some others argue a 180 when it's Plummer.


LOL

Like I said, anyone who has been around long enough has to laugh at his new "we need a franchise QB stance."

Great post, otherwise.. by the way. Concise, logic and fact based and covers the debate in great detail. Nicely done.

[Taco John]

what message is that? That we have a sh!ttier QB than Plummer?

What's the message a coach is usually trying to send to a quarterback when they bench them halfway through a game where they're struggling?

Why are we even talking about last year's Miami game? Plummer typically has bad opening games, and recovers the next week. Big deal.

[Popps]

C'mon Popps. You know damn well the **** we bring on the defensive line is the real culprit. Don't drift from this.

Of course, man. I'll never stray from it, because it's factual and can be proven by any number of factual and statistical based means.
Decent against the run, abysmal against the pass.

Champ Bailey literally saved this defense last year. He saved the season. He's a one-man gang out there, some days. I shudder to think of the havoc that guy could cause if he had some ass-kickers up front putting real pressure on QBs.

I love Champ, I just think he deserves better.

[Popps]

"Brad Johnson is an elite quarterback"



He worked himself into an elite class with top notch performances for three different organizations and a Superbowl win. You said he and Griese were equals.

Context.

"The field position battle doesn't matter."


First off, never said anything close to that. I did say that it didn't matter where we gave Pittsburgh the ball that day.. be it our 40 or their 20. The result was the same... an easy score.

"At what point do we start calling out Champ for being a playoff choker?"


Absolutely. That's your logic at work. Champ got beaten badly a few times across a few playoff losses. By your logic, he therefore must be the SOURCE of the problem, and should be replaced.

Context sucks, eh Taco?

[Taco John]

Now.... do you REALLY define that as choking, Taco? Really? That's choking?

See, to me, choking is when you blow a lead, or throw a crucial pick in a tie game... or miss a short put to win the Masters. But, throwing a half-time INT when your team was in the process of being blown out..... "choking?"



When you have the opportunity to pull your team to within a touchdown and send your team into the locker room on a high note after a rough half, but instead on the first play of the drive you throw an boneheaded interception that basically puts the game out of reach on your own field, yes... that's Choking. That's right. I capitalized it.

[Popps]

When you have the opportunity to pull your team to within a touchdown.


It was 17-3 with Pitt getting the ball after the gun... with the half running out.

Gosh, ya think Pitt might have been looking for us to go for big chunks of yardage? We ran the ball 14 times all day, it's not like they had to worry about that.

They sat back and waited for us to do what the situation FORCED us to do. Our crappy defensive performance led to throw-only mode, instead of keeping the game close (like the week before where we won and scored near halftime) and grinding it out.

[Popps]

Oh well, I've had enough of talking logic to a brick wall. I've got a St. Louis game to worry about.

Hey, maybe Jake will have a poor performance and you can get some threads going calling for the rookie to start?

You can only hope...

[24champ]

When you have the opportunity to pull your team to within a touchdown and send your team into the locker room on a high note after a rough half, but instead on the first play of the drive you throw an boneheaded interception that basically puts the game out of reach on your own field, yes... that's Choking. That's right. I capitalized it.

Taco can you cite any other "chokes" in any other sport where the Person/team choked when they were never leading?

[Taco John]

It was 17-3 with Pitt getting the ball after the gun... with the half running out.

Yeah. A touchdown puts us in our locker room at 17-10. Within one touchdown. Pittsburgh stalled on their first drive out the gates. In fact, our defense held them until Plummer finished the choke job later on after teasing us with our first touchdown of the game.

They sat back and waited for us to do what the situation FORCED us to do. Our crappy defensive performance led to throw-only mode, instead of keeping the game close (like the week before where we won and scored near halftime) and grinding it out.

So it's OK to choke if the pressure is too high then, and instead of throwing to the open guy, throw a floater to the covered tight end. Got it. I guess I just need to understand context.

[Bronco LB 59]

NO.....You can count the number of rookie QBs who have enjoyed successful seasons on your hand, Dan Marino, Ben Roethlisberger, Rick Mirer, Greg Cook. The offense is way too complicated to begin with, the odds would be stacked against Denver if they went this route.

[Dedhed]

It was the original question posed in this thread.



If you voted yes, you voted that you want to see Plummer get injured and miss a couple of games, regardless of how anyone wants to spin it.

You're the one spinning this out of context. "injured" is very different than getting an owie.