The Deep Ball

[Lidderer]

http://thefootballscientist.com/scientific_football/sample.pdf


Around page 16 or 18 of the pdf file, KC Joyner goes into QBs who throw the deep ball, and lists all sorts of stats regarding this.

It should help settle the Lelie debate a little, since Jake is a lot worse at throwing the long ball than I imagined.

Fodder for the naysayers, which I'm reluctant to hand out, but the pdf itself is interesting anyway for those unfamiliar with Joyner.

[-Slap-]

Based on those statistics, Drew Brees is about the best in the League at bombing the football downfield. I've always contended he's extremely underrated, so I'm not surprised by this.

[Atwater His Ass]

It was nice to see Cutler throw some nice deep balls in the preseason. Hopefully this will be an area we become better again when his time comes.

I'm 100% behind Plummer for this year, but the man just doesn't throw a good deep ball. They always seem to float on him a little bit and his down field accuracy isnt' that good.

[Ballhawk]

Further down also shows what a horrible blocker Putz was. Schef is an upgrade in bot receiving and blocking IMO.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

No way could QB Jesus be partially to blame for the lack of a downfield attack from this team.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Plummer way down the list on near interceptions...funny...

Heh. This pretty much disproves O4L's theory that Plummer throws a 'gorgeous' deep ball.

LOL! It just keeps getting better as I read more:

Completed Inaccurate Deep Passes - 1. Plummer

[Northman]

Even more hilarious is that Brian Griese is 15th to Jake's 37th. LMAO

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Even more hilarious is that Brian Griese is 15th to Jake's 37th. LMAO

*forwards to FireShanahan.com*

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Oh, this is rich.

Inaccurate deep passes -

Plummer - 19

Griese - 1

[Merlin]

This illustrates some of the problems with statistically analysing football. The role/play of the receiver affects the outcome of a play yet it sometimes it is difficult to quantify (e.g. poor route running, bad timing, etc). For example, in the Miami game last yr Lelie gave up on a couple of deep throws that were easy TDs if Lelie had run through his route, but instead he cut them short and the ball falls long, thus raising the question, did Lelie give up to soon or did Plumer throw it too deep. Well Lelie could definitely have reach them in stride if he had continued.

Of course the other Red Flag is SOB being rated above ;)

[Clockwork Orange]

Now if we can just come up with the stats that prove that Shanahan and Kubiak were intentionally trying to sabotage poor Ashley Moss, his fanboys will have completely absolved him of all wrongdoings.

Oh, and Bob:

Jake 2
TrINT 0

I know how much you loooove numbers. :laugh:

[Spider]

I havent got to see the final preseason game , cant wait untill I do , but it sounds like Cutler bounced back well from the pick ........

[Spider]

Now if we can just come up with the stats that prove that Shanahan and Kubiak were intentionally trying to sabotage poor Ashley Moss, his fanboys will have completely absolved him of all wrongdoings.

Oh, and Bob:

Jake 2
TrINT 0

I know how much you loooove numbers. :laugh:

I thought Kubes was acting funny

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Now if we can just come up with the stats that prove that Shanahan and Kubiak were intentionally trying to sabotage poor Ashley Moss, his fanboys will have completely absolved him of all wrongdoings.

Oh, and Bob:

Jake 2
TrINT 0

I know how much you loooove numbers. :laugh:

Herm 2
Shanahan 1

[Clockwork Orange]

Herm 2
Shanahan 1

Shanahan 2
Herm 0

In the category that truly matters, anyway.

[Arkie]

Griese only threw 19 deep balls

[Clockwork Orange]

Besides, this issue has been taken care of.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/football/nfl/specials/preview/2006/08/20/rookies.preseason/T1_Cutler_AP.jpg

[Northman]

Besides, this issue has been taken care of.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/football/nfl/specials/preview/2006/08/20/rookies.preseason/T1_Cutler_AP.jpg



Indeed it has. ^5

[Merlin]

Herm 2
Shanahan 1
What was your last coaches record before he went to KC ??? Yes, that would be a straight ride to a SB and a win. What was his record immediately after going to KC 1 playoff appearance and ZERO playoff wins. But Her (a coach with no recognizable accomplishments) is going to break that habit... We'll believe when we see it. Until then he is just another coach in a long line of KC LOSERS!

[Willynowei]

I think expectations for Jake are too high.

Jake can't throw gorgeous balls period. I've never seen him throw a gorgeous ball, long short or whatever, he's athletic and he can put some zip on it but none of his throws will wow you.

The question is, does that matter?

Not much, I want a superbowl, and i think Jake is plenty good enough to get his team a trophy. He's mobile, and athletic, he also is a reason for Denvers run success the QB in our system has to make the Run audibles.

Jakes fine, he earned a pro bowl trip last year, i mean if he can get do enough to win, then who the hell cares how ugly or pretty it looks? Would you all rather have Vick out there? He'll go lose, and look damn good doing it.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Would you all rather have Vick out there? it.

Vick and Plummer have both reached AFC Championship games on the strength of their defenses.

[Clockwork Orange]

Vick and Plummer have both reached AFC Championship games on the strength of their defenses.

And you wish you could say the same about your QB.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

And you wish you could say the same about your QB.

Yes, his defense has held him back. Without question. That is life. Dan Fouts went through an entire career of it.

[watermock]

I wanted Brodie Frayle...dammit...

Can anyone be so wrong, so igonorant, so outright moronic as Man Boobs?

Just yesterday "I am scareded".

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Brodie Croyle took a lot of big hits this preseason. So much for him being frail.

[bronco610]

We know you have to have a perfect Q.B. to win the Super Bowl just ask the ravens.

[doof]

Brodie Croyle took a lot of big hits this preseason. So much for him being frail.

Yes, because 3 quarters of taking hits obviously equals unquestionable toughness.

[watermock]

Yes, his defense has held him back. Without question. That is life. Dan Fouts went through an entire career of it.

This idiot needs a lifetime award for idioicy.

Do you remember someone named Kellen Winslow? That team pased at will you idiot.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

This idiot needs a lifetime award for idioicy.


:rofl:

Priceless.

[Willynowei]

Brodie Croyle took a lot of big hits this preseason. So much for him being frail.

What does this say more about? Croyle or his O-line?

[broncogary]

:rofl:

Priceless.

What he meant to say was, "It takes one to know one." LOL

[Bob's your Information Minister]

What does this say more about? Croyle or his O-line?

Our backup line is pretty bad, yes.

[broncsyanks]

yes it was sweet. to see it again

[Raider Bill]

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[azbroncfan]

Our backup line is pretty bad, yes.

Chefs are screwed then because to go a whole season with no oline injuries is rare and you need depth in the position. Never know what you'll get with turdly.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Chefs are screwed then because to go a whole season with no oline injuries is rare and you need depth in the position. Never know what you'll get with turdly.

There's a difference between subbing one backup player and subbing FIVE.

[Northman]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/y2ZKI5LmwfI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/y2ZKI5LmwfI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

On that second pass my boy Aaron needs to work on his fake handoff. He barely fooled anyone but because there was no real pressure he was able to sling the ball. Thats not going to happen against better defenses. He needs some work on his play action.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

There's a difference between subbing one backup player and subbing FIVE.

How'd that one sub at left tackle look against Denver on Monday night last year? Yeah, only having 1 starter out for the Chiefs on the OL made no difference that night.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Actually, we had TWO starters out that night.

[baja]

Question Bob, who gives a rats ass?

[Sodak]

"Come eat your food Tina! You fat lard!"

[Dagmar]

Question Bob, who gives a rats ass?

:thumbs:

[Kaylore]

Herm 2
Shanahan 1

What? What kind of crap number is that?

It's Shanahan: 9
Herm: 2

In Super Bowls its Just Shanahan: 2

Or are you going to do what you usually do and cut the time period to favor Herm Statistically?

"Herm Edwards has best winning percentage of any coaches named Herm. Shanahan doesn't have a single win in the same category."

:loser:

[Arkie]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/y2ZKI5LmwfI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/y2ZKI5LmwfI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

That's funny like your avatar, Bill. Aaron Brooks is one of the few guys that actually has a long ball that's worse than Plummer's.

[elsid13]

Once again Bobo hijacks a thread.

[Florida_Bronco]

What? What kind of crap number is that?

It's Shanahan: 9
Herm: 2

In Super Bowls its Just Shanahan: 2

Or are you going to do what you usually do and cut the time period to favor Herm Statistically?

"Herm Edwards has best winning percentage of any coaches named Herm. Shanahan doesn't have a single win in the same category."

:loser:

That's an "OWNED" post if I ever saw one. ROFL!

[Kaylore]

One upside to these stats on Plummer is that he ranked pretty high in not making mistakes. (Ahead of Trent Green, Bob.)

It appears that the bulk of Jake's problems are terrible mechanics. I would say it's the same thing for Favre. After Holmngren left, Favre stopped taking coaching and his mechanics have degenerated to the point where he's almost useless.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . .It appears that the bulk of Jake's problems are terrible mechanics.. . . .. .

Jake is one unorthodox dude. How in the hell he gets the job done nobody really has been able to figure it out.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Or are you going to do what you usually do and cut the time period to favor Herm Statistically?


Why wouldn't I? It's only fair to compare one coach against another in the same time period in which they were directly competing against each other in the same conference.

Herm's been a head coach for five years. In that time, he has more playoff wins than Mike Shanahan. I don't care what Shanahan was doing while Herm was rising up the ranks.

[Malcontent]

Why wouldn't I? It's only fair to compare one coach against another in the same time period in which they were directly competing against each other in the same conference.

Herm's been a head coach for five years. In that time, he has more playoff wins than Mike Shanahan. I don't care what Shanahan was doing while Herm was rising up the ranks.

Oh Ok so Bubby Brister is a better QB than Joe Montana because he won more games in the time frame of their last 3 years.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Oh Ok so Bubby Brister is a better QB than Joe Montana because he won more games in the time frame of their last 3 years.

Why are you even bringing up quarterbacks?

Besides, I never said Herm was a better coach than Shanahan. The only point I'm trying to make is that Herm probably isn't as bad as those Jets fans insist.

All we are saying...is give Herm a chance!

http://hermachance.ytmnd.com/

[Kaylore]

Why wouldn't I? It's only fair to compare one coach against another in the same time period in which they were directly competing against each other in the same conference.

Herm's been a head coach for five years. In that time, he has more playoff wins than Mike Shanahan. I don't care what Shanahan was doing while Herm was rising up the ranks.

Well in that case I'll convieniently forget what LJ did last season and say that Mike Bell is the better running because "it's only fair to compare each player against one another in the same time period in which they were competing against each other in the same conference." In preseason, Mike Bell has produced more, therefore Mike Bell is the superior player.

Mike Bell > Larry Johnson.

[brother love]

Let me get this straight, according to this deep ball chart Jake throws a better deep ball than Favre?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Well in that case I'll convieniently forget what LJ did last season and say that Mike Bell is the better running because "it's only fair to compare each player against one another in the same time period in which they were competing against each other in the same conference." In preseason, Mike Bell has produced more, therefore Mike Bell is the superior player.

Mike Bell > Larry Johnson.

Mike Bell hasn't even played a regular season down yet. Preseason means jack.

If Mike Bell comes out and outproduces LJ this year, sure, he's a good running back.

[Kaylore]

Mike Bell hasn't even played a regular season down yet. Preseason means jack.

If Mike Bell comes out and outproduces LJ this year, sure, he's a good running back.

Nope, sorry. If you can cut and paste your sample time period and ignore the previous years, so can I.

Besides with no left tackles, no Richardson and Shields with a high ankle sprain, Mike Bell out-performing LJ this season suddenly seems plausible.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Nope, sorry. If you can cut and paste your sample time period and ignore the previous years, so can I.

Sure, no problem. But preseason really doesn't apply. I think you'll agree that it's not an accurate representation of a player or a coach. Besides, four games isn't a very good sample. Five years is a good sample.



Besides with no left tackles, no Richardson and Shields with a high ankle sprain, Mike Bell out-performing LJ this season suddenly seems plausible.

Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt.

[elsid13]

Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt.

We rather not hear about your sex life.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

We rather not hear about your sex life.

That's monkeys flying INTO my butt.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Sure, no problem. But preseason really doesn't apply. I think you'll agree that it's not an accurate representation of a player or a coach. Besides, four games isn't a very good sample. Five years is a good sample.


Move the goal posts a little more. Kaylore called you on your "criteria" for judging players.

[elsid13]

That's monkeys flying INTO my butt.

Hey dumb ass if they fly out they have to get in there some how. ;D

[riiiiick]

measuring "near" anything in football is useless, same for innacurate but caught deep passes....long ball, short, who looks the best, almost this, etc....the only stat that matters in football is WINS and jake and the broncos bested all but 2 teams last year

[Bob's your Information Minister]

You think I let those monkeys escape my anus once I've got them in sphincterly clutches?

[JoRo]

http://thefootballscientist.com/scientific_football/sample.pdf


Around page 16 or 18 of the pdf file, KC Joyner goes into QBs who throw the deep ball, and lists all sorts of stats regarding this.

It should help settle the Lelie debate a little, since Jake is a lot worse at throwing the long ball than I imagined.

Fodder for the naysayers, which I'm reluctant to hand out, but the pdf itself is interesting anyway for those unfamiliar with Joyner.

something I am sure that the falcons fans will ignore is that Vick was below plummer even

[Hulamau]

Let me get this straight, according to this deep ball chart Jake throws a better deep ball than Favre?

No it doenst mean that, only that PLummer didn't make as many bonehead long throws as Favre last year ... close ... but PLummer got a bit smarter and the coaches helped out by limiting his opportunity for long FUBARs so Favre takes the cake going away!

And regarding what Cutlers arm can mean to this team lets let David Kircus spell it out:

Andrew Mason: "The highlight of the quarterback's performance came on the first play of the team's second possesion.

It was a play-action fake that called for the right-handed Cutler to roll to left. As he broke free from the pocket, wide receiver David Kircus was breaking free down the sideline. Cutler found a wide open Kircus in stride for an 84-yard touchdown."

Kircus: "I definitely knew he had the arm to get it there," Kircus said. "I've seen it all preseason, ever sense he got here. He hit me in stride. That couldn't have been a better ball, especially for him. That's the hardest throw for a quarterback because he's rolling out to his left and he has to throw with his right arm. That's a tough throw. That's a good feeling to know he can get it out there and know I didn't have to come back for the ball."


That about sums it up ... Read it and weep Lelie!

For all of Jake's great qualities, he couldnt have made that throw if his life depended on it. We can win with Jake, but only with a more ball control scheme mixing in an occasional right rollout long throw. No way Jake can throw the counter boot 60 yards in the air on target and in stride.

[Hulamau]

something I am sure that the falcons fans will ignore is that Vick was below plummer even

Thats the sad irony for Lelie, he goes from bad to worse as far as his specialty goes! The only thing that might work out better for him there is that Vick has a lot stornger arm than JAke even if jsut as inaccurate. However that will likely be offfset but gettign even fewer chances as thei r#2 unless he bumps off Roddy White or Jenkins by mid season. You know Jenkins, Alge and Dunn are gonna get the lion share of short passes.

It wil lbe very interesting to see if Vick's deep ball stats improve this year! That possiblity is certainly why the Falcons brought Ash in.

Lelie made his bread and butter by rescuing any number of otherwise sure to be incomplete wounded ducks the past couple years and in the process boostling Jake's long ball stats. Maybe he can do the same with Vick, only he'll likely not have to stop and come back for a jump ball with Vick.

What is also clear from this report is that the author actually took the time to review game tape where these deep ball deparities noted become blatantly, and sometimes painfully, obvious.

[tnedator]

If you like Joyner's stuff, here are some tidbits from the book itself, courtesy of BroncoMania's WABronco:

-Jake Plummer has not been Jake the Mistake for the last two years. According to Joyner, Plummer had the 6th lowest bad decision percentage in his 20-INT 2004 (which is defined as: A) Forcing a pass into coverage B) Staring down the receiver C) Throwing the ball while being tackled/sacked D) Misreading a defense or not seeing a defender).

"Just consider that three of his interceptions in '04 came off of tipped passes by D-lineman. A fourth came when he threw to an open receiver and the receiver was hit hard. The ball popped up in the air and was intercepted. A fifth came on a 4th and 16 when Plummer had no choice but to force the pass into coverage or else get sacked. Take those 5 interceptions out and Plummer had a 27/15 TD/INT ratio, or almost 2/1."

"So it turns out he had a lot of bad breaks in 2004. In 2005, more of those breaks went his way."

He had only 3 bad decision interceptions in '05.

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=67685&highlight=wait

[tnedator]

And some more Joyner/Plummer info:

Bad decision/mistake %: Top five

Rank Player Team Bad decision/Mistake %
1. Tom Brady Patriots 0.7
2. David Carr Texans 1.6
3. Peyton Manning Colts 1.7
4. Drew Bledsoe Cowboys 1.9
5. Jake Plummer Broncos 2.1

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2542482

[Hulamau]

If you like Joyner's stuff, here are some tidbits from the book itself, courtesy of BroncoMania's WABronco:

-Jake Plummer has not been Jake the Mistake for the last two years. According to Joyner, Plummer had the 6th lowest bad decision percentage in his 20-INT 2004 (which is defined as: A) Forcing a pass into coverage B) Staring down the receiver C) Throwing the ball while being tackled/sacked D) Misreading a defense or not seeing a defender).

"Just consider that three of his interceptions in '04 came off of tipped passes by D-lineman. A fourth came when he threw to an open receiver and the receiver was hit hard. The ball popped up in the air and was intercepted. A fifth came on a 4th and 16 when Plummer had no choice but to force the pass into coverage or else get sacked. Take those 5 interceptions out and Plummer had a 27/15 TD/INT ratio, or almost 2/1."

"So it turns out he had a lot of bad breaks in 2004. In 2005, more of those breaks went his way."

He had only 3 bad decision interceptions in '05.

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=67685&highlight=wait

That sounds about right, Jake makes some bad decisions at times, but so do alot of other QBs, and Plummer is one of the better QB's in the league overall when matched with a team like Denver. But these stats also emphasize Jake's major fundamental and uncoachable weakness in the lack of real arm strength and deep ball accuracy.

We can still win with Jake, for sure, by making the changes to our scheme and game-planning that we have done the past two years to maximize his strenghts and minimize his weakness, which any good coach will do with his QB.

And it isn't "bashing" Jake to recognize both the many strenghts that he brings to the table and his one major Achilles heal which the entire football world acknowledges.

They didnt draft Cutler just on a whim after all!

With a strong, deep and balanced team around Jake, though, we might well be able to pull it off. The Ravens did it with Dilfer and Jake is three times the QB Dilfer was. But can our defense be as solid in all phases as the 2001 Ravens were? Fortunately, since Jake and our whole offense is so much better than the Ravens O were, our D doenst have to be quite so fierce, but they do have to be pretty dominant.

In any event, Jake most likely gives us the best chance to win this season and I hope he can play at least as good as last year, or even better, in his 10th season ( 4th in the Bronco system) along with all the new receiver weapons he has and Dinger calling the plays ... its certainly fish or cut bait time now!

But his current margin over Cutler is only one of experience at reading defenses and knowing the system. And I can see a couple scenarios, other than injury to Plummer (God Forbid) in which it might become in our best interest to throw the kid in and let him cut his teeth later this season.

For sure, no matter when Cutler finally starts, like every QB in history he will have his growing pains. Even Rothlesburger improved between 04 and 05 , although to our great good fortune Big Ben's prescident with the 2004/2005 Steelers is very close to the one we now have with Cutler.

However, in the highly unlikely event our team falls flat in the first half of the year, in that case why wait until next year to start breaking Jay in?

The other scenario that might call for using Cutler some this year, is if the running game struggles and we find ourselves having to play catch up in a lot of games from more than an 11 or 12 point deficit against the better teams, in such a case we might well do better putting Cutler in the second half to open it up.

Jake simply has not proven to be a good come from behind QB during his time in Denver. He is great when we play with a lead or even in close games where we trail by a TD or FG. However, in games that we get much farther behind, the combination of his weaker arm and the natural tighening up anyone would have trying to climb such a hurdle hasnt worked out well for either Jake or us so far.

Maybe he has come back and won a game for us from more than a 12 point deficit, but if so I cant recall when? And against the better teams its so hard anyway to come back, even with Payton Manning at QB, that without a strong and accurate arm and a cool demeanor its truly hopeless.

In that scenario, with little else to loose I could easliy see Shanny putting Cutler in and saying go for it!

Lets hope it doesn't come to that as that would portend bigger problems.

And in any event, I don't understand this idea of having to hate Jake if one likes Cutler's talent, or vice versa?

They both play for the same team for Pete's sake and which ever one of them gives us the best chance at any point along the way is the one who should be in there. Plain and simple!

[Rashomon]

Brodie Croyle took a lot of big hits this preseason. So much for him being frail.


Hey Bob, why don't you tell everyone where Brodie was for the Chiefs first two preseason games, and see if you can keep a straight face when you say he isn't frail. And with a stat line from the two games he managed to play in of: 6-18, 59 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, QB Rating - 20.4, I am sure all Chiefs fans are resting easy knowing they have their QB of the Future. :rofl:

[Arkie]

Let me get this straight, according to this deep ball chart Jake throws a better deep ball than Favre?

No. There are several charts. The 31 year old Jake leads the 36 year old Brett in some but not all of the charts. Both of them sucked.

[Lidderer]

If you like Joyner's stuff, here are some tidbits from the book itself, courtesy of BroncoMania's WABronco:

-Jake Plummer has not been Jake the Mistake for the last two years. According to Joyner, Plummer had the 6th lowest bad decision percentage in his 20-INT 2004 (which is defined as: A) Forcing a pass into coverage B) Staring down the receiver C) Throwing the ball while being tackled/sacked D) Misreading a defense or not seeing a defender).

"Just consider that three of his interceptions in '04 came off of tipped passes by D-lineman. A fourth came when he threw to an open receiver and the receiver was hit hard. The ball popped up in the air and was intercepted. A fifth came on a 4th and 16 when Plummer had no choice but to force the pass into coverage or else get sacked. Take those 5 interceptions out and Plummer had a 27/15 TD/INT ratio, or almost 2/1."

"So it turns out he had a lot of bad breaks in 2004. In 2005, more of those breaks went his way."

He had only 3 bad decision interceptions in '05.

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=67685&highlight=wait

Thank you for this.

[The Big E]

OK, so a player does some things well, and some things not so well. Shocking.

How's the team done with Jake at the helm? Better or worse than it was before his arrival?

[elsid13]

OK, so a player does some things well, and some things not so well. Shocking.

How's the team done with Jake at the helm? Better or worse than it was before his arrival?


Well that depends:

On the number assaults on the QB by team mates and dogs- Worse
On traffic incidents about about the same
On whinning about the QB on the mane - way up
On regular season and playoff wins better

:D

[Mediator12]

There's a difference between subbing one backup player and subbing FIVE.

Um, BOB you have already subbed two players and are just one away from playing three backups and losing two all-pro level players ;D

[watermock]

No way Jake can throw the counter boot 60 yards in the air on target and in stride.


We had one guy who could do that...forget his name...

[Kaylore]

If you like Joyner's stuff, here are some tidbits from the book itself, courtesy of BroncoMania's WABronco:

-Jake Plummer has not been Jake the Mistake for the last two years. According to Joyner, Plummer had the 6th lowest bad decision percentage in his 20-INT 2004 (which is defined as: A) Forcing a pass into coverage B) Staring down the receiver C) Throwing the ball while being tackled/sacked D) Misreading a defense or not seeing a defender).

"Just consider that three of his interceptions in '04 came off of tipped passes by D-lineman. A fourth came when he threw to an open receiver and the receiver was hit hard. The ball popped up in the air and was intercepted. A fifth came on a 4th and 16 when Plummer had no choice but to force the pass into coverage or else get sacked. Take those 5 interceptions out and Plummer had a 27/15 TD/INT ratio, or almost 2/1."

"So it turns out he had a lot of bad breaks in 2004. In 2005, more of those breaks went his way."

He had only 3 bad decision interceptions in '05.

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=67685&highlight=wait

I tried to point this out earlier but it got lost in the Bob bashing. Jake makes better decissions than guys like Jake Delhome or Trent Green. His struggles seem to be rooted in poor mechanics which hurts accuracy. His style is unorthodox for a pro QB, and while it allows him to do some things that a lot of other QB's can't like remain ellusive and throw on the run, it limits the passing game because he can't hit receivers down field and throws behind a lot of players on slants and all those inside passes. He is what he is. Overrated by Bronco fans but horribly underrated by everyone else.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Jake makes better decissions than guys like Jake Delhome or Trent Green.

ROFL!

That's one of the funniest things I've ever read here. You're amusing.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Um, BOB you have already subbed two players and are just one away from playing three backups and losing two all-pro level players ;D

Well, if you think our starters suck then imagine how much the backups must suck.

[Kaylore]

ROFL!

That's one of the funniest things I've ever read here. You're amusing.

The statistical evidence is right in front of you, Bob. Not only does Jake make fewer mistakes, but the mistakes he does make are less devastating.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

The statistical evidence is right in front of you, Bob. Not only does Jake make fewer mistakes, but the mistakes he does make are less devastating.

What on earth are you talking about? Green is ahead of Plummer in almost every category on this PDF.

According to this PDF, Jake had seven deep balls that were near-interceptions last year. Green had one.

Green's career is all about making the right decisions. Plummer's has been the opposite.

[Pendejo]

The statistical evidence is right in front of you, Bob. Not only does Jake make fewer mistakes, but the mistakes he does make are less devastating.

To be fair...that has a lot to do with Plummer playing on a superior team.

[Kaylore]

And some more Joyner/Plummer info:

Bad decision/mistake %: Top five

Rank Player Team Bad decision/Mistake %
1. Tom Brady Patriots 0.7
2. David Carr Texans 1.6
3. Peyton Manning Colts 1.7
4. Drew Bledsoe Cowboys 1.9
5. Jake Plummer Broncos 2.1

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2542482

Read this, Bob.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

The fact that David Carr and Bledsoe are on that list proves it's not worth much. Bledsoe threw 17 interceptions for crying out loud.

Plummer is on a leash. That's the only reason his bad decisions were down.

[Arkie]

The fact that David Carr and Bledsoe are on that list proves it's not worth much. Bledsoe threw 17 interceptions for crying out loud.

Plummer is on a leash. That's the only reason his bad decisions were down.

You seem to missing the bad decisions vs. inaccuracy part.