Nagins poor reaction to Katrina

[Bronco9798]

They were the phone calls that saved thousands of lives - extraordinary calls placed from a forecaster's hurricane-shuttered bunker in South Florida that finally motivated authorities in New Orleans and elsewhere to take action.

"I wanted to be able to go to bed that night knowing that I did everything I could to save lives," Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center in West Miami-Dade County, recalled this week.

A year ago today, Hurricane Katrina struck Broward and Miami-Dade counties, its eye passing directly over the hurricane center. A Category 1 hurricane, it killed six people in Broward and five in Miami-Dade, according to state officials.

It plunged 1.4 million utility customers into powerless darkness and sweltering heat. It crushed an under-construction overpass on the Dolphin Expressway. It inflicted $572 million in insured losses - blue tarps still cover many Katrina-damaged houses - and an equal amount in uninsured losses.

And we got off relatively easy.

Katrina served as a preview of the cataclysm awaiting the upper Gulf Coast - and a sample of the local pain to be delivered two months later by Hurricane Wilma.

"There are lessons to be learned from all hurricanes and there are lessons to be learned from Katrina on the north Gulf Coast that we should take to heart here," Mayfield said. "The biggest one is that experience is not always a good teacher.

"It would be a real mistake for people in South Florida to think that because we saw a Cat 1 Katrina and a Cat 5 Andrew and a Cat 1 or 2 Wilma, that we've seen everything," he said. "We haven't."

Katrina crashes

Three days after sweeping through South Florida, a much stronger version of Katrina brought disaster of unimaginable depth and breadth to New Orleans, Biloxi and Gulfport in Mississippi and adjacent areas.

And, experts say, it would have been far worse if not for the efforts of forecasters in South Florida and elsewhere to sound the alarm.

For years, Mayfield had been telling friends that he expected his career, now in its 34th year, to end like this:

A monstrous hurricane hits a densely populated stretch of coast. It kills hundreds or thousands because of a bad forecast. He is hauled before Congress. He is blamed for the disaster and fired.

His premonition was largely correct, all but the parts about a bad forecast and blame.

After Katrina killed more than 1,700 people, Mayfield was summoned to testify at six congressional hearings. Rather than being censured, he, his hurricane-center staff and Gulf Coast forecasters at the National Weather Service won praise for being federal employees who performed admirably when others did not.

"Max Mayfield and his center did great work," Sen. David Vitter, R-La., said during a May 24 hearing before a subcommittee of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee. "It literally saved thousands of lives."

Among those efforts: a virtually unprecedented series of phone calls placed by Mayfield to the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi, to local emergency managers along the Gulf Coast and, most importantly, to C. Ray Nagin, the mayor of New Orleans.

Forecasts on some storms are not as accurate as Mayfield would like.

But for more than two days, the Katrina forecasts were consistent and, as it turned out, nearly perfect - a life-threatening natural disaster was approaching.

In addition, he and other forecasters briefed federal, state and local officials several times a day, as they always do when a hurricane approaches the United States. But some elements of the emergency management system seemed nearly paralyzed by a combination of disbelief, inexperience and incompetence at high levels.

'A big, big deal'

The first forecast that placed New Orleans in the danger zone was issued at 4 p.m. New Orleans time on Friday, Aug. 26, not long after the storm left South Florida.

For the next 28 hours, official forecasts from the hurricane center pointed Katrina - by now a major and intensifying hurricane - directly at New Orleans. The weather office for that city issued increasingly ominous predictions of local effects.

New Orleans is a soup bowl, surrounded by water, protected only by aging levees. A massive storm surge and intense hurricane winds were certain. Many of the city's nearly 500,000 residents and 1 million people living elsewhere in that metropolitan area were in grave danger.

The city's readiness plan called for a mandatory evacuation at least 48 hours before landfall, but by 8 p.m. Saturday, with Katrina's center only 36 hours away, Nagin had not issued that order. Three hours earlier, he said his lawyers were still researching the city's liability for lost business revenue if he took such action.

An evacuation order has dual value. Along with telling people who live in vulnerable areas to flee from potential harm, it communicates a sense of urgency - even a sense of inevitability - to everyone in the region.

And time was running out.

Acting upon the advice of Clay Stamp, a key behind-the-scenes figure who was working for the Federal Emergency Management Agency and has not been widely recognized for his role in this event, Mayfield took action that went beyond the usual call of duty.

Stamp, a former emergency manager in Ocean City, Md., was serving as a member of FEMA's Hurricane Liaison Team, assigned to the hurricane center. As Mayfield wrapped up a series of television interviews that night, Stamp caught the forecaster's eye.

He said, "I have to talk to you."

Last week, Stamp, now Maryland's deputy director of emergency medical services, said he was reacting to the "gravity of Katrina."

This is how he recalled the conversation:

"Max, I've been in public safety for 30 years and I know what happens when you come down to the wire and you're sitting with an elected official and you have to deliver what he needs to make a life-and-death decision.

"There comes a point when they have to talk to the most informed official. That time has come and you need to talk to the governors of the states.

"And Max said, 'Can you get them on the phone?' And we went from there."

Mayfield, who confirmed the account and said that Stamp deserves much of the credit, made the calls from his office, its windows still shielded by metal hurricane shutters installed a few days earlier as Katrina approached South Florida.

He told the governors that Katrina was going to rival Hurricane Camille of 1969, one of the most powerful hurricanes on record. Camille produced a 25-foot storm surge and killed hundreds of people.

"This is going to be a big, big deal," Mayfield told Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco, according to her recollection.

Mayfield said he told Nagin: "This is going to be a defining moment for a lot of people."

Later, Nagin said that Mayfield's message "scared the crap out of me. I immediately said, 'My God, I have to call a mandatory evacuation.' "

Still, Nagin waited for 14 hours, finally ordering the evacuation at 11 a.m. Sunday, just five hours before the storm's outer wind and rain began arriving. Katrina's core made landfall only 19 hours after the evacuation order, but many people did heed the order and escaped in time.

"It's not like I had any secret information," Mayfield said. "I'm briefing about the most recent forecast. That's what I always do, whether it's the president or you or anybody. It's just the sense of urgency that comes from these calls."

Mayfield recalls only one other time that he reached out in that manner - when Hurricane Lili approached Louisiana as a Category 4 hurricane.

Still, the system is not supposed to work that way. Governors, mayors and emergency managers - aided by their advisors - are supposed to draw proper conclusions from public forecasts issued by the hurricane center and by local weather offices.

Now, Mayfield worries that some elected officials may sit by their phones, not taking the situation as seriously as they should, waiting for a personal phone call. During hurricane conferences this past year, he repeatedly urged them not to do that.

He also worries that his staff's laser-beam Katrina forecasts could pose a problem. All forecasts carry a broad margin of error that must be understood and acknowledged.

Thinking about the long delays in taking action in New Orleans, Mayfield grimaced. Every year, more Americans move to the coast.

"That happened with a good forecast," he said. "Can you imagine if we forecast it 30 or 40 miles east of where it actually made landfall? New Orleans may not have done a thing.

"Oh my goodness, I don't even want to think about that."

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/15355547.htm

[epicSocialism4tw]

You would think that he would be familiar with the liabilities associated with mandatory evacuation living below sea level in a trenched up delta.

[Rascal]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/25/katrina.nagin.ap/index.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin criticized efforts to redevelop the World Trade Center site when confronted in a television interview about delays in rebuilding his city after Hurricane Katrina.

During the CBS "60 minutes" interview, a correspondent pointed out flood-damaged cars still on the streets of New Orleans' devastated Ninth Ward. Nagin replied, "You guys in New York can't get a hole in the ground fixed, and it's five years later. So let's be fair," according to CBS.

The program is scheduled to air Sunday night. Text and a video clip from the Nagin piece were posted on CBS' Web site Thursday.
------------

OMG...What a ****ing dumbass.

[bendog]

I don't believe we ever issued a mandatory evacuation in Mississippi. The Gov "strongly advised" it, as I recall. Of course we also had natl guard troops on the streets the day after it hit with orders to "shoot looters."

[epicSocialism4tw]

I don't believe we ever issued a mandatory evacuation in Mississippi.
I dont know anything about that. Was Katrina forecast to hit there? I seem to remember the hurricane making a sort of unexpected right turn right before landfall in NO. There wasnt an evacuation of SE Texas coastline either.


Of course we also had natl guard troops on the streets the day after it hit with orders to "shoot looters."

Yeah...that will always ruffle my feathers.

[bendog]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/25/katrina.nagin.ap/index.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin criticized efforts to redevelop the World Trade Center site when confronted in a television interview about delays in rebuilding his city after Hurricane Katrina.

During the CBS "60 minutes" interview, a correspondent pointed out flood-damaged cars still on the streets of New Orleans' devastated Ninth Ward. Nagin replied, "You guys in New York can't get a hole in the ground fixed, and it's five years later. So let's be fair," according to CBS.

The program is scheduled to air Sunday night. Text and a video clip from the Nagin piece were posted on CBS' Web site Thursday.
------------


OMG...What a ****ing dumbass.

This was on NPR this am. It's actually a fair statement in context, and it points out a very, very large concern for the US. Nagin has this was of phrasing something that just smacks one upside the head. If you don't stop to understand what he's saying, you miss it. Here's al link to the cbs clip and it plays on 60 mins Sunday.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/08/watch_the_video.html

What he's talking about is the regulatory and legal difficulties in removing debries and even whole houses from private property, most of the time with the owners being nowhere to be found. It's entire blocks of a city down there, and in the ninth ward an entire ward. NOLA was actually SUED by housing advocates who for years had been helping the poor to buy those houses, and now the city needs to tear them down and bulldoze the area to a flood plane.

NYC comparatively had little of that problem. They had the environmental nightmare, like NOLA. But realitively speaking less ground, and NONE of the legal ownership issues. One guy's got a 99 year lease, and they still don't have a damn blueprint or even agreement on a memorial.

So, when people criticize NOLA for not being further along, he's got a valid point. But more importantly, he's raising an issue of .... what would happen, how would homeland security plan to rebuild if (God forbid) bin laden lights off a nuke in Miami and takes out all of Dade County? Or, what if bin laden set off a chemical fire in LA that not only burned out the port but also made millions homeless because of toxic fumes? How do we streamline rebuilding?

In Mississippi the governor had a plan whereby if the counties devastated bought in, and basically let one regulatory body decide everything ... like the size of water pipes and the height above water line and when you could have a private pump and what kind of septic tanks etc etc etc.... they got a billion in fed aid to match local money. It's working ok, but even Trent Lott can't get his insurance to pay off.

[bendog]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/25/katrina.nagin.ap/index.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin criticized efforts to redevelop the World Trade Center site when confronted in a television interview about delays in rebuilding his city after Hurricane Katrina.

During the CBS "60 minutes" interview, a correspondent pointed out flood-damaged cars still on the streets of New Orleans' devastated Ninth Ward. Nagin replied, "You guys in New York can't get a hole in the ground fixed, and it's five years later. So let's be fair," according to CBS.

The program is scheduled to air Sunday night. Text and a video clip from the Nagin piece were posted on CBS' Web site Thursday.
------------


OMG...What a ****ing dumbass.

This was on NPR this am. It's actually a fair statement in context, and it points out a very, very large concern for the US. Nagin has this was of phrasing something that just smacks one upside the head. If you don't stop to understand what he's saying, you miss it. Here's al link to the cbs clip and it plays on 60 mins Sunday.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/08/watch_the_video.html

What he's talking about is the regulatory and legal difficulties in removing debries and even whole houses from private property, most of the time with the owners being nowhere to be found. It's entire blocks of a city down there, and in the ninth ward an entire ward, which is where the interview was talking about. NOLA was actually SUED by housing advocates who for years had been helping the poor to buy those houses, and now the city needs to tear them down and bulldoze the area to a flood plane.

NYC comparatively had little of that problem. They had the environmental nightmare, like NOLA. But realitively speaking less ground, and NONE of the legal ownership issues. One guy's got a 99 year lease, and they still don't have a damn blueprint or even agreement on a memorial.

So, when people criticize NOLA for not being further along, he's got a valid point. But more importantly, he's raising an issue of .... what would happen, how would homeland security plan to rebuild if (God forbid) bin laden lights off a nuke in Miami and takes out all of Dade County? Or, what if bin laden set off a chemical fire in LA that not only burned out the port but also made millions homeless because of toxic fumes? How do we streamline rebuilding?

In Mississippi the governor had a plan whereby if the counties devastated bought in, and basically let one regulatory body decide everything ... like the size of water pipes and the height above water line and when you could have a private pump and what kind of septic tanks etc etc etc.... they got a billion in fed aid to match local money. It's working ok, but even Trent Lott can't get his insurance to pay off.

[bendog]

PS, even here we still have after school day care in nasty old trailers and people living in those small fema trailers with little hope to rebuild, though now the $150K grants are coming in, which seems like a lot, but their banks still hold the mortgages on homes the wind blew away ... before the storm surge hit. And at least our congressional reps and governor are competent.

[bendog]

pps, here's the rub
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,210478,00.html

Nola still doesn't have it's act together to get the federal money, and this at a time when in Mississippi we cannot find enough skilled const workers. We're actually recruiting students to go to community colleges for nine week courses to get workers. (some nascar guy is doing the radio spots: I'm ricky racer an' you can earn a good livin', educate yer family, and these jobs have benefits like healthcare ...)

But that really reflects from the federal and governor level. The governor has to have a plan that can be sold to congress. Blanco's an idiot, and Landruex came in with this wish list from outer space that had stuff wanting money that had nothing to do with Katrina.

[Spider]

this fighting is ridiculous .......First they have ot have the people on the pay roll willing to work , both citys ......
with New Orleans alot of the problem is out of state workers working , just there for a paycheck , no city pride ..... That does make a difference , a guy working for his city will go the extra mile .........
In New York @ the WTC ....... Painfull memories for alot of people there , I am willing to bet alot of people wish they could turn back the hands of time .....
Both Jobs are massive N.O. and the WTC ....if you never been to the WTC , words wouldnt describe how big that place was .........
instead of bickering , they should be offering advice and keeping in mind that the American People were the losers in this ..........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Say what you will about Nagin - I just think it's funny how right-wingers pile on Nagin but don't utter a peep about the monumental failure of FEMA/DHS (the agency that had primary responsibility for responding to Katrina.)

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4373/americanidle27zh.gif

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/chertoff-pinup2.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/katrina-seal.jpg

[Spider]

Say what you will about Nagin - I just think it's funny how right-wingers pile on Nagin but don't utter a peep about the monumental failure of FEMA/DHS (the agency that had primary responsibility for responding to Katrina.)


I am not sticking up for the goverment here , but 1 thing I never understood is why on disasters like this ,FEMA isnt brought in right away .... this notion of letting states handle it untill it gets out of control isnt working .........Quick FEMA responces makes all the difference in the world , we saw that on Casper mountian fire .. our local boys were doing thier damnest to fight that fire , but they had limited equpiment , Fema came in and in 2 short days the fire was 80% contained , the fire wont be out untill first snowfall , but nothing was lost .....

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I am not sticking up for the goverment here , but 1 thing I never understood is why on disasters like this ,FEMA isnt brought in right away .... this notion of letting states handle it untill it gets out of control isnt working ........

In the case of Katrina, the Governor of Louisiana requested aid under the Stafford Act, which put the ball squarely in FEMA's court before the hurricane made landfall.

Blanco’s letter requesting Emergency aid under the Stafford Act, August 27th:
http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4843


President Bush legally puts the ball in Chertoff and Howard’s court, August 27th:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.htm

From the DHS website:


In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

[W*GS]

Is anyone surprised that all parts and levels of the government, except the NHC, screwed the pooch on this one?

[Spider]

Is anyone surprised that all parts and levels of the government, except the NHC, screwed the pooch on this one?

I for one am Shocked ..............ok maybe not ;D

[SteveTensi13]

Ray Nagins legacy; But of course the liberal sheep heads will blame Bush for this one as well.

[Spider]

Ray Nagins legacy; But of course the liberal sheep heads will blame Bush for this one as well.
Kinda misleading isnt it Steve ?

[SteveTensi13]

Kinda misleading isnt it Steve ?

I like this one better!

[Spider]

I like this one better!

doesnt capture your feminine side enough ........ this is a god one of you though

[bendog]

Here's Louisana's request. I don't know what they eventually ended up with, but this bill became the talk of the RW set, with Hanpatty going ballistic over 8 million for alligator farms. LOL

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/25/AR2005092501413.html

That sort of freaked me out, because Miss's delegation had asked for about 40 million in direct relief, which the budget hawks, who seem to have no probelem reconstrucing Iraq, were bitching about ... and then they saw what Landreaux was asking for, and they wigged out.

In the end, Sen Cochran who chairs the senate appropriations committee got the money by telling bushii and the budget hawks that the defense appropriations bill wouldn't get out of committee unless Miss got the aid.

http://deltafarmpress.com/news/122305lott-katrina/

The real money (not that 40 mill is chump change, but it's chump change compared to the damage Katrina caused) is in the tax credits. That's where the real reconstruction is coming from. The private sector getting credits. Barbour thinks the city and local governments will be totterieng on insolvency for 5-10 years, what with schools and govt buildings.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ray Nagins legacy; But of course the liberal sheep heads will blame Bush for this one as well.

:stupid:

What part of "primary responsibility" don't you understand, Forrest Gump?

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Brownie: WH wanted me to lie

Michael Brown says the White House wanted him to lie about the response to Katrina.

He told ABC News "This Week with George Stephanopoulos that he stood by comments in Playboy, and that President Bush wanted him to take the heat for the bungling.

(snip)

Brown said it was natural to want to put the spin on that things are working. "My biggest mistake was just not leveling with the American public and saying, 'Folks, this isn't working." He also cited what he called an e-mail 'from a very high source in the White House that says the president said, 'Thank goodness Brown's taking all the heat because it's better that he takes the heat than I do."

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/082806M.shtml

"It's the anniversary of Katrina, another hurricane is coming, and Bush is STILL on vacation, AGAIN - just like he stayed on vacation for a full three days after Katrina destroyed New Orleans....Yes, he's fully engaged...while on vacation at his rich daddy's "summer" home. Too bad the folks in New Orleans still don't have spring, summer, winter or fall homes."

- John Aravosis

http://americablog.blogspot.com/


"Bush wishes that we would forget Katrina, forget My Pet Goat, forget the August 6th memo, forget his frantic flight to Nebraska, forget his promise to wage a crusade, forget that he didn't even know the difference between Shi'a and Sunnis before he asked Richard Clarke to find phantom evidence against Iraq...Yes, if we can forget all of that, then maybe we can see him again standing on the rubble with his bullhorn, talking tough and making us feel better for a half a moment. For me, Bush will always be reading My Pet Goat."

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2006/8/28/10548/4695


Iraq gets cash, New Orleans gets promises

So far America has spent some $320 billion in Iraq for nation-building, whereas in New Orleans, homeowners have so far seen precisely zero.

Not that there isn't talk. A federally funded program with the Disneyfied name of "The Road Home" is due to start distributing thousands of dollars to uninsured homeowners . . . eventually. Additional billions have been poured into the coffers of the Army Corps of Engineers, whose design flaws caused
the city's levees to rupture in the first place, and through FEMA which awarded more than 70 percent of its contracts through a no-bid or limited-bid process to Bush's cronies who just pocketed the cash.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/28/AR2006082800857.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns

[gunns]

I too believe that all parts of the government takes blame for Katrina. But it's obvious that the Federal government looks like the bigger morons afterward, primarily do to their non action. Why? And it still goes on. I have a huge problem with my tax dollars going to the Iraqi's to rebuild, yet NO sits there largely unchanged after a year. I watched When the Levee Breaks last night, cried through the whole thing, and sat in astonishment that this happened on American soil to American citizens. Embarrassing.

[NOLA Bronco]

I too believe that all parts of the government takes blame for Katrina. But it's obvious that the Federal government looks like the bigger morons afterward, primarily do to their non action. Why? And it still goes on. I have a huge problem with my tax dollars going to the Iraqi's to rebuild, yet NO sits there largely unchanged after a year. I watched When the Levee Breaks last night, cried through the whole thing, and sat in astonishment that this happened on American soil to American citizens. Embarrassing.

Well said. As some one in NOLA, thanks.

[NOLA Bronco]

Tensi - the picture of the buses is crap. Where the buses were, it didn't flood in the past, nor should it had the levees held. Nagins plea's got more than 90% of the people out. His insistance to open the dome for people who didnt want to leave or had no means saved lives. I have met tons of people and read more stories than anyone here. People stayed for lots of reasons - Pets, elderly relatives, no money for hotels 10 or more hours away, sick of leaving, protecting their property. These decisions cannot be blamed on Nagin and some flooded buses. People put the trust in the federal government for the levees and for protection.

Here is a point no one here ever thinks about - If those people had no way out other than buses, why were there so many flooded cars? People have to make their own wise decisions. Its the mayors job to advise people what to do, and I would say most people leaving (which was the most successfull evacuation of a city this big) was a sign people listened. People here still can't believe so many people left. Leaving isnt easy, just ask Houston.

The state, in conjunction with the state of Mississippi I believe, has set up a network of shelters for people to evacuate to now. Certain places for the coastal parishes, and certain ones for nola and the area. These places will take pets and have food and gas. Believe it or not, most people in America probably can't afford to leave their homes for several days. Not everyone can afford a trip like that.

[bendog]

I think the bus drivers already evacuated (-:

On one of the shows last night, I forget if it was the one by the local NOLA station of a national one on discovery times, they had a former FEMA guy who quit afterwards who said he and a collegue were sitting there and in 10 secs figured out the relief path and wanted to call the DOD of DOT for transport, but FEMA heads though they lacked the authority.

Before the levies broke, people were not going to evacuate in busses - without their pets and their few possessions. That's the way people are. The folks who evacuated in NOLA and Miss BEFORE the levy breaks thought they'd be back home in a few days. AFTERWARDS, when it was obvious the city was going under, of course people wanted to get out. Some even then weren't leaving without pets.

RW talk TV is dangerous. It makes old time Goldberg conservatives like me uneasy with the gop.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Bush, Katrina & Trent Lott's house

On his 13th trip to the Katrina-devastated Gulf Coast, where hundreds died and tens of thousands lost everything they had, George W. Bush was still mourning the loss of Sen. Trent Lott's Mississippi waterfront house.

Hurricane Katrina "was massive in its destruction," Bush told reporters along for his Aug. 28 visit to the slowly recovering region. "It spared nobody. United States Senator Trent Lott had a fantastic house overlooking the bay. I know because I sat in it with he and his wife. And now it's completely obliterated. There's nothing."

Indeed, perhaps the most revealing glimpse that the Katrina disaster offered into Bush's inner self was the contrast between his strained attempts at empathy for the common folks - like a photo-op hug for a couple of well-scrubbed African-American girls who survived the flood - and his pain over the destruction of one home owned by a millionaire senator who lives most of the year in Washington.

Katrina ripped off the pretense of Bush's folksy style, showing that he remains the son of privilege who feels for those like himself and feigns sympathy for others. After Katrina hit the Gulf region and inundated New Orleans one year ago, White House officials even had trouble getting a vacationing Bush to focus on the magnitude of the disaster.

Continued: http://consortiumnews.com/2006/082906.html

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Pay to be saved

The Red Cross has just announced a new disaster-response partnership with Wal-Mart. When the next hurricane hits, it will be a co-production of Big Aid and Big Box.

This, apparently, is the lesson learned from the government's calamitous response to Hurricane Katrina: Businesses do disaster better.

"It's all going to be private enterprise before it's over," Billy Wagner, emergency management chief for the Florida Keys, currently under hurricane watch for Tropical Storm Ernesto, said in April. "They've got the expertise. They've got the resources."

But before this new consensus goes any further, perhaps it's time to take a look at where the privatization of disaster began, and where it will inevitably lead.

Continued: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/klein

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/photo-op-norleans.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/katrina-in-Iraq.jpg

[footstepsfrom#27]

Pay to be saved

The Red Cross has just announced a new disaster-response partnership with Wal-Mart. When the next hurricane hits, it will be a co-production of Big Aid and Big Box.

This, apparently, is the lesson learned from the government's calamitous response to Hurricane Katrina: Businesses do disaster better.

"It's all going to be private enterprise before it's over," Billy Wagner, emergency management chief for the Florida Keys, currently under hurricane watch for Tropical Storm Ernesto, said in April. "They've got the expertise. They've got the resources."

But before this new consensus goes any further, perhaps it's time to take a look at where the privatization of disaster began, and where it will inevitably lead.

Continued: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/klein
The article ignores the reality that the government already contracts tens of thousands of service related expenditures to the private sector successfully. In fact without private contractual relationships across the entire spectrum of federal, state and local initiatives...everything from military contracts to the Culligan man who stocks the water coolers in federal buildings, the US government would be so overwhelmed with trying to take those responsibilities it would grind to a halt and achieve total gridlock.

The truth is...and that truth is being explored and propagated in the most ardently left of center universities in the country...places like Harvard, U Cal Berkley, and Stanford...privatization DOES create better value propositions for many things the public sector cannot handle. Is disaster relief one of those things? I don't know. It's difficult though to see how the private sector could do any worse than the abortion we saw with Katrina. The real lesson of current experience with private outsourcing solutions in other areas is often a mixed bag of good and bad results, with the public largely unaware of the specifics represented by these relationships when the issues are not large enough to grab people's attention.

Big company contracts may get the press and accompanying criticism but small firms actually do far more business with the government than the big guys do. The largest criticism I have for the Bush administration's strategy of mixing private and public responders is the same one I have for the mess we saw in the Katrina debacle...command and control policy and practice that eminates from outdated hierarchal management structures is virtually worthless when there is no connection to the realities on the ground. FEMA failed because their vision was entirely macro and lacked the ability to impliment or manage from the bottom up, lacked the innovation and response ability that goes with being smaller, quicker and having greater mobility and flexibility...absolutely crucial elements of the decision making process structure that private firms, NGO's and FBO's all possess in far greater quantities than the government does. The move to tap into synergies that are well represented at the level of micro management (ground level action) is a good one, but without building connecting bridges between policy planners and coordinators in Washington or state capitals, you have the proverbial fly in the ointment so to speak.

Merely turning over aspects of disaster relief to private firms is nothing new...the Red Cross itself represents privatization. What IS new is the for profit nature of new responders being added to the list. This in itself doesn't really tell us anything though. We don't know for example, whether the non profit nature of NGO's and FBO's, or for that matter...large organizations like the Red Cross and United Way, makes them any less suseptible to waste and missmanagement, not to mention graft. My opinion is that it doesn't. The only inherant difference in the for profit response mechanism that operates on the strength of government contracts and the efforts of publicly funded organizations like the Red Cross is that the best management talent resides in the private sector and for profit sector. That's not speculation; it's fact. The nature of cash strapped organizations operating on grants and other external revenue sources generated apart from their inherant strength as market competitors, tends to dissuade the best people from taking leadership positions outside the private for profit economy.

The public has a need to know how private/public partnerships are designed, managed and implemented and where the chain of accountability achieves a nexus with the ability of the people to impact change through both political action and publicity. Probably some sort of citizens review board model similiar to that implemented by local police departments is the best answer. In any case, merely assailing private for profit outsourced solutions to dissaster relief represents more political motivation on the part of the left than it does any careful and considered examination of the success or lack thereof of this model for intervention. What's really needed is for MORE of the creativity and innovation, design oriented and wholistic management practices employed by business and LESS six sigma square pegs in round holes.

[bendog]

Yesterday I heard part of a speech by the mayor of Biloxi Miss recounting all the federal politicos who came down after katriana.

Ted Kennedy, "Mr Mayor, you watch out for them GD insurance companies, and (pointing at Leiberman) most of em are in his state."

John Warner, "I'm an old man, and I've lived through 3 wars and 5 wives ... or was it 5 wars and 3 wives.... but I ain't never seen anything like this."

[Rohirrim]

I heard an interesting thing on the radio yesterday; One year after the 1906 earthquake, San Francisco was rebuilt. 1906!

[epicSocialism4tw]

I heard an interesting thing on the radio yesterday; One year after the 1906 earthquake, San Francisco was rebuilt. 1906!

Not alot to rebuild in SF in 1906.

[Spider]

Not alot to rebuild in SF in 1906.

population of 4hunred thousand in 1906 was pretty big

[W*GS]

Well, SF wasn't entirely rebuilt in a year after the 1906 quake.

That particular disaster is one of the little things I've read about a great deal, so I know what I'm talking about.

[Spider]

so I know what I'm talking about.
That would be a first ;D

[Rohirrim]

Well, SF wasn't entirely rebuilt in a year after the 1906 quake.

That particular disaster is one of the little things I've read about a great deal, so I know what I'm talking about.


Go on. I guess first you should define "entirely."

[bendog]

In SF didn't they basically throw out building codes to get rebuilt quickly?

NOLA presents an interesting problem. 1) the areas that are so low that they never should have been built upon are all black. Bulldozing them and making parks for flood planes are opposed as being "racist." However, the ninth ward was used for flood control before, and will be again. That's fact.

2) In Miss, people are now starting to get their 150K grants. It's not all free. Rather, since the insurance companies (in Lieberman's state) apparantly are going to get off scott free from paying the wind damage that happened before the flood - the people are going to be able to pay what they'd have paid for flood insurance, and then they get 150K, which was the max under flood insurance, minus some of the aid they already received.

3. I haven't heard about that in NOLA.

[W*GS]

Go on. I guess first you should define "entirely."

SF on 14 April 1907 wasn't the same as it was on 14 April 1906 - there was still a lot of damage.

Interesting how an entire city pretty much did rebuild itself without the kind of governmental "assistance" NOLA is (isn't) getting today.

[Rohirrim]

SF on 14 April 1907 wasn't the same as it was on 14 April 1906 - there was still a lot of damage.

Interesting how an entire city pretty much did rebuild itself without the kind of governmental "assistance" NOLA is (isn't) getting today.

Congress and President Theodore Roosevelt appropriated $2.5 million for emergency relief in the Bay Area, the equivalent of $51.3 million today

While the city was burning, Roosevelt and Taft put Congress and the federal bureaucracy into action. Congress passed its first appropriation, $500,000, without debate on April 20. Taft and the Army quartermaster corps rushed supplies to San Francisco from bases across the country.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/04/18/MNGQRESPONSE18.DTL

[defenseman]

Nagin and the governor of LA should wear an albatross. No worthwhile evacuation plan, the delay to announce get out of NO. They both get to wear it as far as I'm concerned. IF, NO had an effective evalution plan AND it was executed early enough, many lives would have been saved. They didn't, and didn't on both accounts. They are solely to blame at the outset from where I sit...dman

*1992, Hawaii lost a total of 6 lives on a direct hit from a CAT 4 hurricane. Evacuation plan? Absolutely, and executed to a T, commencing 3 days prior to arrival. Only 6 lives lost. Just another example of a well laid plan , well executed , can save lives...something NO and their leaders didn't have

[bendog]

dman, George S. Patton couldn't have evacuated NOLa until AFTER the flood. After, greyhound bus lines could've done it.

[W*GS]

Congress and President Theodore Roosevelt appropriated $2.5 million for emergency relief in the Bay Area, the equivalent of $51.3 million today

While the city was burning, Roosevelt and Taft put Congress and the federal bureaucracy into action. Congress passed its first appropriation, $500,000, without debate on April 20. Taft and the Army quartermaster corps rushed supplies to San Francisco from bases across the country.

OK, so "without" was too strong. However, those sums were pittances compared to the cost of rebuilding SF.

Certainly there was no expectation on the part of SFers that the federal government was going to come in and fix everything for them...

[bendog]

In a way you're both right. But Wags is typically ..... out in space.... to think that NOLA could be rebuild w/o federal help. In fact the only real reason to rebuild it is that it's neccessary for commerce on the Miss R.

However, esp amongst the african american long term poor, there is a prevailing notion, imo, that the govt owes them something.

[defenseman]

dman, George S. Patton couldn't have evacuated NOLa until AFTER the flood. After, greyhound bus lines could've done it.

I stand by my post. They did not have a plan at the outset and even if they did they would have executed it WAY too late. They are both to blame, AFTER the hurricane hits is too late. Hawaii figured it out years ago, what the hell is the problem down there in NO? Not enough common sense to fill a salt shaker...dman

*You live in a virtual round fish bowl next to the gulf, knowing full well a HUGE hurricane could rip into you and flood you out at ANYTIME during the hurricane season? And you don't have a workable, realistic and executable evacuation plan? Again, not enough common sense to fill a salt shaker. Or is it that it's just too hard to figure it out to begin with? Pretty sad leadership if you ask me..."just to hard to do" never gets it done anywhere, and the regular citizen pays the price, hope they sleep well at night, they are both morons in my book......Next question, if it's too damn hard to figure out an evacuation plan, WHY were people living there? Again, sometimes, you can't have your cake and eat it too...

[defenseman]

dman, George S. Patton couldn't have evacuated NOLa until AFTER the flood. After, greyhound bus lines could've done it.

And, if the plan executed allowed for folks to stay behind BY CHOICE, then those who ELECT to stay behind deserve anything that is coming too them..dman

[W*GS]

In a way you're both right. But Wags is typically ..... out in space.... to think that NOLA could be rebuild w/o federal help.

The problem is the expectation that the federal government will use taxpayers dollars to fix everything. It's not just NOLA residents who think that, either.

[bendog]

Well, in 1906 there was this railroad that had a terminal end in SF and it went through these mountains and over these plains .....

Of course to a libertarian, using the federal govt to get private citizens to build it via incentives (land giveaway) is unthinkable.

[bendog]

And, if the plan executed allowed for folks to stay behind BY CHOICE, then those who ELECT to stay behind deserve anything that is coming too them..dman

You were too long in the military, imo. There was a plan, btw. The plan acknowelded that the poor w/o cars would mainly stay, and trying to evacuate them was a lose-lose. The plan was the people would head to the superdome (the convention center apparantly was not planned) and the natl guard and FEMA would be there within 48-60 hours.

A military analogy ... A bridge too far. Brian Uruquart as Ray Nagin. The coast guard and the amphib carrier, the 82nd AB. FEMA - 30th Corp

[defenseman]

The problem is the expectation that the federal government will use taxpayers dollars to fix everything. It's not just NOLA residents who think that, either.

Amen to that. Yep those are my tax dollars and where the hell is your evacuation plan Mr. Mayor, or Madaam Gov? Both of them are morons, and And it's my understanding that Mr. mayor got re-elected? Holy cow, apparently lots of morons down there. Must be nice to be paid to be incompetent...dman

[Rohirrim]

The problem is the expectation that the federal government will use taxpayers dollars to fix everything. It's not just NOLA residents who think that, either.

There are so many countries in the world that adopt the Libertarian (Darwinian) concept that everybody is on their own. Here in America, we prefer to chip in, as a society, and help the poor - if for no other reason than we don't want to (as they do in so many countries) step over their dead bodies in our streets. We used to do that. Then we got civilized.

[defenseman]

The problem is the expectation that the federal government will use taxpayers dollars to fix everything. It's not just NOLA residents who think that, either.

There are so many countries in the world that adopt the Libertarian (Darwinian) concept that everybody is on their own. Here in America, we prefer to chip in, as a society, and help the poor - if for no other reason than we don't want to (as they do in so many countries) step over their dead bodies in our streets. We used to do that. Then we got civilized.

Clinton did a pretty good job of fixing part of the welfare problem. His plan was pretty basic and executable. It has helped quite a bit. There is more "leeches" out there though that need to have their money cut off , INCLUDING some corporate types and some of these "educational" institutions not living up to "their" end of the bargain. For those that truly "require" assistance, they should get it...dman

[defenseman]

You were too long in the military, imo. There was a plan, btw. The plan acknowelded that the poor w/o cars would mainly stay, and trying to evacuate them was a lose-lose. The plan was the people would head to the superdome (the convention center apparantly was not planned) and the natl guard and FEMA would be there within 48-60 hours.

A military analogy ... A bridge too far. Brian Uruquart as Ray Nagin. The coast guard and the amphib carrier, the 82nd AB. FEMA - 30th Corp

C'mon dog. Too long in the military? Why? Because I refuse to accept mediocrity and incompetence in my day to day business and completing the mission is why you get a pay check? Half of america needs a healthy dose of that to be honest. A little bit of commitment to work ethic and credibility. Their standards flat out suck hind tit. I NEVER went into anything without an escape plan. Anything. And, had to execute it on occassion. And, the NO's plan wasn't a plan, it's a damn temporary band aid. Flat out sucked. Did not and could not get the mission accomplished. Ergo, unrealistic and unexecutable and doomed to fail, which it did admirably I might add. Nagin and the GOV should be wearing this until they are laid to rest from where I sit. It's a tough job to be mayor/governor I'm sure, however, that's why they both get the big bucks. SO, they need to take charge and get'r'dun, so to speak.

*Mississippi and Gov . Barber appear to be on their way to recovery, they were just round the corner, were they not? when the hurricane hit? They are addressing the issues and moving forward it seems anyway, a hell of a lot faster than NO? Must be because NO's is a "fishbowl" huH? Well reality is a bitch now isn't it. Live in a fishbowl, the rain and water just may fill your abode up from time to time, the risk certianly is there. They should have had this worked out decades ago. Poor plan, poor leadership.....

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The problem is the expectation that the federal government will use taxpayers dollars to fix everything. It's not just NOLA residents who think that, either.

There are so many countries in the world that adopt the Libertarian (Darwinian) concept that everybody is on their own. Here in America, we prefer to chip in, as a society, and help the poor - if for no other reason than we don't want to (as they do in so many countries) step over their dead bodies in our streets. We used to do that. Then we got civilized.

Don't assume for a minute that a guy who's as socially and morally stunted as W*GS would be bothered in the least by those bodies in the streets (as long as he isn't impacted personally, that is.)

[NOLA Bronco]

NOLA presents an interesting problem. 1) the areas that are so low that they never should have been built upon are all black. Bulldozing them and making parks for flood planes are opposed as being "racist." However, the ninth ward was used for flood control before, and will be again. That's fact.


Thats not true. Lakeview and Broadmoor (where Memorial Hospital is) are not, and NO East was a wide mix of races and cultures.

[NOLA Bronco]

Nagin and the governor of LA should wear an albatross. No worthwhile evacuation plan, the delay to announce get out of NO. They both get to wear it as far as I'm concerned. IF, NO had an effective evalution plan AND it was executed early enough, many lives would have been saved. They didn't, and didn't on both accounts. They are solely to blame at the outset from where I sit...dman

The people who were going to leave had plenty of time to leave. We know enough to watch TV. The people who were going to stay, did. Nothing was going to change their mind. It is a misconceived notion to think anyone but the people themselves are responsible for not leaving. It was the greatest evacuation in history. To think otherwise shows that you don't really know what happened. Thousands of flooded cars prove my point. People had means, but many chose to ignore the signs.

[NOLA Bronco]

And, if the plan executed allowed for folks to stay behind BY CHOICE, then those who ELECT to stay behind deserve anything that is coming too them..dman

Well, stupidity in this country is not a crime. People chose to stay. The fact that 90% of the city left shows that people were listening.

[NOLA Bronco]

Amen to that. Yep those are my tax dollars and where the hell is your evacuation plan Mr. Mayor, or Madaam Gov? Both of them are morons, and And it's my understanding that Mr. mayor got re-elected? Holy cow, apparently lots of morons down there. Must be nice to be paid to be incompetent...dman

And if the good tax paying citizens of NOLA and Louisiana had received the flood protection we were told we had and our fair share of the offshore oil money (that has also caused the deteriorization of our coastline), then we might have been in this mess.

Everyone here knows what shape NOLA would have been in if we actually had the levees we were told we had. If they had received the attention they deserved over the years, instead of being considered pork in appropriations bills, maybe things would have turned out differently.

It is always interesting to hear the takes of people who don't have to deal with this everyday.

[defenseman]

The people who were going to leave had plenty of time to leave. We know enough to watch TV. The people who were going to stay, did. Nothing was going to change their mind. It is a misconceived notion to think anyone but the people themselves are responsible for not leaving. It was the greatest evacuation in history. To think otherwise shows that you don't really know what happened. Thousands of flooded cars prove my point. People had means, but many chose to ignore the signs.

Then there is ALOT of people in NO with VERY, VERY poor decision making abilities. Downright stupid to hang out in a "fishbowl" waiting to get flooded out from the garden hose. Real F*&king intelligent...dman

[defenseman]

Well, stupidity in this country is not a crime. People chose to stay. The fact that 90% of the city left shows that people were listening.

Stupidity and a poor work ethic , let alone a lack of standards is rampid. The whole country needs an overhaul. Not only some of our "elected" officials, but I'd say a fair percentage of our own citizens need to get their heads screwed back on straight. Too much time swallowing the garbage spewed in the media, not enough time on the important stuff....dman

[Spider]

Stupidity and a poor work ethic , let alone a lack of standards is rampid. The whole country needs an overhaul. Not only some of our "elected" officials, but I'd say a fair percentage of our own citizens need to get their heads screwed back on straight. Too much time swallowing the garbage spewed in the media, not enough time on the important stuff....dman
Horse Piss ......exporting Jobs over seas ..Companies over hiring , even with that , we are still better off then we was 25 years ago ,our standard of living is much higher ....... Let me tell you somthing , if the good old days were that damn good , they wouldnt be old , things would be the same ......
My Dad worked much harder then I do , he had alot less ....... Pay attention

[defenseman]

Horse Piss ......exporting Jobs over seas ..Companies over hiring , even with that , we are still better off then we was 25 years ago ,our standard of living is much higher ....... Let me tell you somthing , if the good old days were that damn good , they wouldnt be old , things would be the same ......
My Dad worked much harder then I do , he had alot less ....... Pay attention

Globalization will happen. Get used to it...dman

[Spider]

Globalization will happen. Get used to it...dman
I see the writting on the wall , but that is still no excuse to call people stupid and lazy that you never met ..........

[bendog]

Stupidity and a poor work ethic , let alone a lack of standards is rampid. The whole country needs an overhaul. Not only some of our "elected" officials, but I'd say a fair percentage of our own citizens need to get their heads screwed back on straight. Too much time swallowing the garbage spewed in the media, not enough time on the important stuff....dman

http://www.amazon.com/Lanterns-Levee-Recollections-Southern-Civilization/dp/0807100722/sr=1-1/qid=1157125566/ref=sr_1_1/002-7069483-3050443?ie=UTF8&s=books

It's nothing new. And, in NOLA, the poorest of the poor tend to be african-american, more often than not. So whattya gonna do? Taking your posts literally, you'd let them drown in their attics. Apparantly that was brown and bushii's view as well.

[W*GS]

Everyone here knows what shape NOLA would have been in if we actually had the levees we were told we had. If they had received the attention they deserved over the years, instead of being considered pork in appropriations bills, maybe things would have turned out differently.

Expecting LA politicians to quit engaging in their usual games of graft and corruption is a big problem for y'all...

[bendog]

Thats not true. Lakeview and Broadmoor (where Memorial Hospital is) are not, and NO East was a wide mix of races and cultures.

yeah, you're right. I was overbroad. However, it's my understanding that the ninth ward has the lowest elevation.

But, you'll not sell me on the notion that the vast, vast majority of folks stuck down there in the flood were african-americans. And, generally speaking, the lower the elevation, the poorer the residents.

[NOLA Bronco]

yeah, you're right. I was overbroad. However, it's my understanding that the ninth ward has the lowest elevation.

But, you'll not sell me on the notion that the vast, vast majority of folks stuck down there in the flood were african-americans. And, generally speaking, the lower the elevation, the poorer the residents.

It was very low, and if the flood walls had held, they would have still flooded - because of the man dredged Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet (MRGO). The same reason St Bernard Parish flooded. Like most of it, it could have all been prevented had the right amount of technology and maintainence been used to protect US citizens.

[NOLA Bronco]

Expecting LA politicians to quit engaging in their usual games of graft and corruption is a big problem for y'all...


There is political corruption and bad leadership everywhere....

[NOLA Bronco]

Then there is ALOT of people in NO with VERY, VERY poor decision making abilities. Downright stupid to hang out in a "fishbowl" waiting to get flooded out from the garden hose. Real F*&king intelligent...dman


You still don't get it. The flooding to some extent is dealt with fine, its the breaking of the levees that was not supposed to happen. If that had not happened, you wouldn't be hearing much about NOLA's recovery, because there wouldnt have been that much to do.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The BushCo Kool-Aid drinkers keep trying desperately to deflect criticism of Bush and DHS/FEMA (who had primary responsibility for responding to the disaster) by scapegoating Nagin.

The funniest thing is their apparent belief that it isn't already too late to change public perception here. :laugh:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/katrina-richard-baker2.jpg