Lessons Learned-Israel's Military

[defenseman]

By AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 45 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - In a letter to the troops, Israel's military chief acknowledged publicly for the first time Thursday that there were shortcomings in the military's performance during the recent fighting with Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon.

Israel went into the monthlong war as a united front against Hezbollah, but since the fighting ended last week, the country has splintered into a cacophony of reproachful voices.

Criticism of the military's preparedness and tactics swelled after the battles ended without a clear-cut victory for Israel. Questions about the wisdom of 11th-hour battles and reports of food and water shortages have fueled demands for a state inquiry into the war's conduct and the resignation of Israel's wartime leaders.

In a letter to Israeli fighters, military chief Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz wrote: "Alongside the achievements, the fighting uncovered shortcomings in various areas — logistical, operational and command. We are committed to a thorough, honest, rapid and complete investigation of all the shortcomings and successes."

"Questions will be answered professionally, and everyone will be investigated — from me down to the last soldier," according to the letter, released by the military Thursday.

War broke out July 12, hours after Hezbollah fighters killed three Israeli soldiers and captured two in a bold cross-border raid. About 160 Israelis — one-quarter of them civilians — died in the fighting, and northern Israel was all but paralyzed by nearly 4,000 rockets fired from across the border in Lebanon.

While Halutz was owning up to military missteps, the head of the Shin Bet security service was calling the war "a fiasco" in his first public statement on the fighting.

"The north was abandoned, the government systems collapsed there completely," Shin Bet director Yuval Diskin told a closed security forum, according to meeting participants. "There were many failures, and the public sees and understands this. This is not the time to whitewash. The truth must be told. ... Someone has to provide explanations and take responsibility."

During a visit to the rocket-scarred north on Thursday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert promised that rebuilding the region would be a top priority.

"Billions will be invested ... to turn the north into the paradise it can be," Olmert said, estimating that up to $2.3 billion could be budgeted over the course of several years.

Additionally, more than $300 million raised abroad will be channeled to help towns in the north, he said, promising that a plan would be approved within two weeks.

In the meantime, Olmert has acquiesced to calls for a war probe, and is expected to decide within days what kind of inquiry to conduct.

The most sweeping inquiry would be a state commission, with powers to dismiss government and military officials.

A vocal group of reserve soldiers and bereaved parents has been demanding that Olmert, Halutz and Defense Minister Amir Peretz step down, or that the government conduct an honest reckoning of what went wrong by appointing a state commission of inquiry.

The war's outcome has also unleashed a fierce spasm of political infighting. The governing coalition, established in May, has become even more brittle, with partners feuding over proposed budget cutbacks to pay for the war, which cost up to an estimated $9 billion.

Peretz — a former union boss with scant military experience — has especially come under fire, both within and outside his Labor Party. On top of having his credentials questioned, Peretz now faces a rebellion within his own party by members who oppose the budget cutbacks on the ground they would hurt Israel's disadvantaged.

"Never has his leadership seemed more short-lived," political writer Nadav Eyal wrote in Israel's Maariv newspaper on Thursday.

Israel, has some obvious shortcomings. However, this is the first step to correction. Given their overall track record, I'm thinking they'll come out of this newly enviggerated and alot more operationally proficient. And , once their period of self analyzing and upgrade in all respects is complete, their "enemy" will pay dearly for messing with them in the future..dman

*A man has to go to know his limitations, and if motivated and committed a mans limitations can be limitless in some respects

[Rohirrim]

Maybe I have a former infantryman's bias, but at some point, military types around the world should realize that air power alone won't do the job. How many more examples do they need?

[bendog]

bottom line, Wesley Clark was right when he said you can't use force to make a military solution. You can use force to make your enemy accept a political solution. But, yeah, Isreal made operational and tactical errors too.

[defenseman]

Maybe I have a former infantryman's bias, but at some point, military types around the world should realize that air power alone won't do the job. How many more examples do they need?

Yep, WITHOUT boots on the ground, no need to shoot a Peashooter at anyone. Got to have more "boots on the ground", just like cowbells..dman

[Meck77]

Hey atleast Israel got it's captive soldiers back.:kiddingme

I'm glad to see the killing stop but it's only a temporary thing while both sides regroup and figure out how to kill one another more efficiently.

The backlash towards the United States will follow soon enough.

[defenseman]

On that note: Israel just picked up a couple or three dolphin class submarines to add to their fleet, all nuclear capable, german made, very , very , very quiet. They definitely are setting up a "deterrent" is response to iran's refusal to standdown from enriching additional uranium. With these dolphin class AND special weapons, iran wouldn't know what hit them to be honest....dman

[elsid13]

Maybe I have a former infantryman's bias, but at some point, military types around the world should realize that air power alone won't do the job. How many more examples do they need?

You are absolutely correct, but a every 5 years a new system comes along that the air boy promise will be the holy grail in combat. The problems is that there are politicos that believe that stuff. The article in the LA Times that members of the current administration were using the air campaign in Kosovo as why to win a war without boots on the ground. That did happen until NATO air power was combined with viable Kosovo ground force did the Serbs back off.

[mhgaffney]

Yep, WITHOUT boots on the ground, no need to shoot a Peashooter at anyone. Got to have more "boots on the ground", just like cowbells..dman

Naaah.

Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years -- with plenty of boots on the ground -- yet failed to destroy Hezbollah. It was a clear victory for Hezbollah.

And they did it again in the recent war.

In fact, Heszbollah's military strategy in the recent case was to survive a campaign of intense bombing -- then lure Israel into an invasion so they could inflict heavy casualties on the IDF. A well trained, dug in, and well armed guerrilla force just fought the best conventional army in the Mideast to a stand still. Another clear victory for Hezbollah.

As for Israel's Dolphin subs, we have to assume they are on patrol in the Persian Gulf. I'm pretty sure Israel has a sub base on the southern Red Sea, which greatly extends their range.

If this is true it means Israel has forward deployed nuclear weapons -- an extremely dangerous policy. An incident at sea could prove explosive.

MG

[Spider]

Naaah.

Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years -- with plenty of boots on the ground -- yet failed to destroy Hezbollah. It was a clear victory for Hezbollah.

And they did it again in the recent war.

In fact, Heszbollah's military strategy in the recent case was to survive a campaign of intense bombing -- then lure Israel into an invasion so they could inflict heavy casualties on the IDF. A well trained, dug in, and well armed guerrilla force just fought the best conventional army in the Mideast to a stand still. Another clear victory for Hezbollah.

As for Israel's Dolphin subs, we have to assume they are on patrol in the Persian Gulf. I'm pretty sure Israel has a sub base on the southern Red Sea, which greatly extends their range.

If this is true it means Israel has forward deployed nuclear weapons -- an extremely dangerous policy. An incident at sea could prove explosive.

MG

the only reason Hezbollah is standing , is no one will put up with genocide ....... Hezbollah didnt go toe to toe with Israel , Hezbollah hid amongst leboneese people and cowardly attacked ....... Hezbollah wears no uniform , Israel never had a real target ........ I have no great love for Israel , but lets call a spade a spade shall we ?

[mhgaffney]

the only reason Hezbollah is standing , is no one will put up with genocide ....... Hezbollah didnt go toe to toe with Israel , Hezbollah hid amongst leboneese people and cowardly attacked ....... Hezbollah wears no uniform , Israel never had a real target ........ I have no great love for Israel , but lets call a spade a spade shall we ?


You are repeating what we've all heard on CNN, FOX etc. But is it true?

I am sure there are Lebanese who deeply resent Hezbollah for using the local neighborhood for a launch pad from which to fire rockets at Israel. But Israel did similar things. Israel sited military bases in northern Israel near Arab-Israeli towns -- for the similar reasons. I have yet to hear Israel criticized for doing it.

Hezbollah is a guerrilla army. It survived because it chose when and how to fight. Is that cowardice? No, that's the nature of guerrilla warfare.

By the end of the war 87% of Lebanese people were backing Hezbollah -- the only force that was defending Lebanon.

Within two days after the cease fire Hezbollah distributed $12,000 to every family that lost its home in the bombing. They gave help to Sunnis, Christiians, Druze, alike, whomever. Hezbollah also immediately sent engineers, doctors, aid workers etc to every part of the country to help the people start to rebuild.

Compare that with FEMA's totally inept and corrupt response to Katrina. We could learn something about priorities from devout Shiites who know how to take care of their countrymen.

[Spider]

You are repeating what we've all heard on CNN, FOX etc. But is it true?

I am sure there are Lebanese who deeply resent Hezbollah for using the local neighborhood for a launch pad from which to fire rockets at Israel. But Israel did similar things. Israel sited military bases in northern Israel near Arab-Israeli towns -- for the similar reasons. I have yet to hear Israel criticized for doing it.

Hezbollah is a guerrilla army. It survived because it chose when and how to fight. Is that cowardice? No, that's the nature of guerrilla warfare.

By the end of the war 87% of Lebanese people were backing Hezbollah -- the only force that was defending Lebanon.

Within two days after the cease fire Hezbollah distributed $12,000 to every family that lost its home in the bombing. They gave help to Sunnis, Christiians, Druze, alike, whomever. Hezbollah also immediately sent engineers, doctors, aid workers etc to every part of the country to help the people start to rebuild.

Compare that with FEMA's totally inept and corrupt response to Katrina. We could learn something about priorities from devout Shiites who know how to take care of their countrymen.

Still doesnt change the fact that the Hezzy are only here cause the world wouldnt tolerate Genocide ........ The Hezzy are only here cause of our love for life ...... Nat cause of the Hezzys battle tactics .......

[epicSocialism4tw]

Still doesnt change the fact that the Hezzy are only here cause the world wouldnt tolerate Genocide ........ The Hezzy are only here cause of our love for life ...... Nat cause of the Hezzys battle tactics .......

That's a nice post, Spider.

[Rohirrim]

Naaah.

Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years -- with plenty of boots on the ground -- yet failed to destroy Hezbollah. It was a clear victory for Hezbollah.

And they did it again in the recent war.

In fact, Heszbollah's military strategy in the recent case was to survive a campaign of intense bombing -- then lure Israel into an invasion so they could inflict heavy casualties on the IDF. A well trained, dug in, and well armed guerrilla force just fought the best conventional army in the Mideast to a stand still. Another clear victory for Hezbollah.

As for Israel's Dolphin subs, we have to assume they are on patrol in the Persian Gulf. I'm pretty sure Israel has a sub base on the southern Red Sea, which greatly extends their range.

If this is true it means Israel has forward deployed nuclear weapons -- an extremely dangerous policy. An incident at sea could prove explosive.

MG

It's funny that sometimes you come across as somebody who advocates world peace, and yet when you're talking about Hizbollah being victorious, you get all giddy, like some kind of Hizbollah cheerleader.

[Rohirrim]

Still doesnt change the fact that the Hezzy are only here cause the world wouldnt tolerate Genocide ........ The Hezzy are only here cause of our love for life ...... Nat cause of the Hezzys battle tactics .......

The Hizbollah are in Lebanon because the French set up such a weak government model for the Lebanese to follow that they can't possibly excercise any centralized power to control their own country. The government of Lebanon is run by something like 17 different sectarian interests with some ridiculous rules like the president has to be from one Christain sect while the prime minister has to be a sunni and the next guy in power (I forget the title) is a Shiite, and so on. It was created to be constantly fractured and unstable - and reflects what the U.S. is trying to impose on Iraq.

It's a perfect recipe for a third party (Iran and Syria) to inject their own proxy interests into Lebanon, to advance their own agenda to the ultimate detriment of the Lebanese people. Sure they'll pop a few bucks to build you a new house and put a chicken in your pot, but in the end, their goal is to impose the tyranny of their religious views on the Lebanese people (who don't want it) and keep them constantly embroiled in war with Israel. The Lebanese people are nothing but puppets to Hizbollah, Iran and Syria. When they're done with them, they'll kick them to the curb.

[elsid13]

The Hizbollah are in Lebanon because the French set up such a weak government model for the Lebanese to follow that they can't possibly excercise any centralized power to control their own country. The government of Lebanon is run by something like 17 different sectarian interests with some ridiculous rules like the president has to be from one Christain sect while the prime minister has to be a sunni and the next guy in power (I forget the title) is a Shiite, and so on. It was created to be constantly fractured and unstable - and reflects what the U.S. is trying to impose on Iraq.

But it is a step up from what it was during the civil war era. I was actually hoping with the Syrians being kick out, that Lebanon was on the path of becoming a secular democratic government.

[Spider]

The Hizbollah are in Lebanon because the French set up such a weak government model for the Lebanese to follow that they can't possibly excercise any centralized power to control their own country. The government of Lebanon is run by something like 17 different sectarian interests with some ridiculous rules like the president has to be from one Christain sect while the prime minister has to be a sunni and the next guy in power (I forget the title) is a Shiite, and so on. It was created to be constantly fractured and unstable - and reflects what the U.S. is trying to impose on Iraq.
agreed the best goverment is a goverment the people want , you just cant stroll into a country and insert democracy .. mainly in the M.E. , these peoples Religion is strict , they follow it , they need to be told what to do and how to do it ..........they need a goverment like that

[defenseman]

Naaah.

Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years -- with plenty of boots on the ground -- yet failed to destroy Hezbollah. It was a clear victory for Hezbollah.

And they did it again in the recent war.

In fact, Heszbollah's military strategy in the recent case was to survive a campaign of intense bombing -- then lure Israel into an invasion so they could inflict heavy casualties on the IDF. A well trained, dug in, and well armed guerrilla force just fought the best conventional army in the Mideast to a stand still. Another clear victory for Hezbollah.

As for Israel's Dolphin subs, we have to assume they are on patrol in the Persian Gulf. I'm pretty sure Israel has a sub base on the southern Red Sea, which greatly extends their range.

If this is true it means Israel has forward deployed nuclear weapons -- an extremely dangerous policy. An incident at sea could prove explosive.

MG

What about "deterrent" didn't you understand?...dman

[mhgaffney]

The Hizbollah are in Lebanon because the French set up such a weak government model for the Lebanese to follow that they can't possibly excercise any centralized power to control their own country.

Like most Americans you have a short memory.

Hezbollah is in Lebanon not because of the French -- but because Israel attacked and invaded the country in 1982. That's when Hezbollah was born. It's ironic that the Shiites who live there initially welcomed the IDF in 1982 as liberators -- because the Shiites were not happy with the PLO's presence in S Lebanon at the time. Israel cleared the PLO from southern Lebanon -- well fine and good. But when the Israelis stayed on they quickly wore out their welcome. The local Shiite population organized a grass roots militia to drive the Israelis out -- and they eventually succeeded. The IDF left in 2000.

That's the history. You don't like Hezbollah. You can thank Israel.

[/QUOTE] It's a perfect recipe for a third party (Iran and Syria) to inject their own proxy interests into Lebanon, to advance their own agenda to the ultimate detriment of the Lebanese people.[/QUOTE]

As you say Lebanon has always been vulnerable to outside interventions because of its polyglot population/politics. But there are many villains responsible for Lebanon's problems. It wasn't only Syria or Iran. You conveniently overlook the role that Israel played since the 1950s. Israel's strategy was always to sow division -- and it did this in Lebanon by arming and training the Christian Maronites -- the Phalange.

As for my "giddy reaction" -- that's in your imagination. I simply pointed out what should now be obvious: the Islamic world has discovered a way to defeat the US and Israel -- via guerrilla warfare. We are seeing the same thing in Iraq and I daresay in Afghanistan. You attack the messenger because you don't like the message.

[epicSocialism4tw]

The only way to "defeat" these guys might just be to raze the place and leave it be.

[Rohirrim]

Like most Americans you have a short memory. Why don't you quit insulting people? I don't have a short memory. You, once again, missed the point. I didn't say French actions were the CAUSATIVE FACTOR in the existence of Hizbollah, I said their creation of a weak Lebanese government formed the conditions conducive to Hizbollah's ability to gain a foothold and thrive.

As you say Lebanon has always been vulnerable to outside interventions because of its polyglot population/politics. But there are many villains responsible for Lebanon's problems. It wasn't only Syria or Iran. You conveniently overlook the role that Israel played since the 1950s. Israel's strategy was always to sow division -- and it did this in Lebanon by arming and training the Christian Maronites -- the Phalange.

Again, had the government of Lebanon not been so weakened from its inception, there would have been little need for Israel to interfere in Lebanon's politics.

As for my "giddy reaction" -- that's in your imagination. I simply pointed out what should now be obvious: the Islamic world has discovered a way to defeat the US and Israel -- via guerrilla warfare. We are seeing the same thing in Iraq and I daresay in Afghanistan. You attack the messenger because you don't like the message.

I attack the messenger because he seems to take a certain glee in our enemies successfully killing his countrymen. The Islamic world has discovered nothing that a relatively curious schoolboy could not find in his local library. Currently, the U.S. government is composed of idiots. Were that goverment composed of people who actually knew something about how the U.S. conducted its tactics in the Phillipines, for example, and followed those same anti-insurgency tactics, there would be little cause for celebration in the "so-called" Islamic world. I don't see any reason to give our enemies plaudits for their creativity when they are merely benefitting from the incompetence of our leaders.

Given that the "Islamic world" consists of 1.1 billion people, the majority of whom are not aligned with our enemies in Al Queda, Hizbollah or Iraq, and the continued conflicts in the ME merely drag down the world, I doubt that they see much to celebrate about.

My personal opinion is that we should not be there. Period. The U.S. has been cleaning up after Europe's F ups for a hundred years. Why Israel and the ME became our responsibility is anyone's guess. I suspect that what this administration (and those that came before it) mean by "vital interests in the region" is oil. Frankly, I'm sick of it.

As I understand it, lying in the oil shale of Wyoming, Colorado and Utah are over a trillion gallons of oil. Add the money that we spend protecting and propping up the ME tyrannies to the cost we pay them for a barrel of oil (money which is also used to support the terrorists who attack us), and I'll bet it would be in our best interest to switch over to the oil shale. Hell, we'd probably save many dollars per barrel. Imagine dumping all that foreign aid, and payoffs, and military spending, etc.

It seems to me we have arrived at that point in history where we should completely disengage from the entire ME, let China, Russia and Europe decide the issue (they desperately need that oil - we don't), and we come home and take care of our own. We are fighting and dying and being vilified and attacked, for something that really shouldn't mean much to us. It may mean a lot to Exxon and Halliburton and the politicians they pay for, but it means relatively little to the welfare of the American people.

[BroncoBuff]

Maybe I have a former infantryman's bias, but at some point, military types around the world should realize that air power alone won't do the job. How many more examples do they need?
Ever since Vietnam, it seems, people have understood the value of guerilla warfare. That's how we won the Revolutionary War, in part. Not only our militias, which did plenty of damage, but they say Washington won the war when he realized he had to keep the Brit armies at "arm's length" ... that 'winning the ground' didn't matter nearly as much as living to fight another day. Hit and run .... keep alive.

That's pretty much exactly how Hizbollah won ... by keeping IDF at arm's length ... hiding in living rooms with their portable missile launchers.

I think the days of visible armies all wearing the same uniforms are basically over. Uniforms in war. How quaint.

[epicSocialism4tw]

It seems to me we have arrived at that point in history where we should completely disengage from the entire ME, let China, Russia and Europe decide the issue (they desperately need that oil - we don't), and we come home and take care of our own. We are fighting and dying and being vilified and attacked, for something that really shouldn't mean much to us. It may mean a lot to Exxon and Halliburton and the politicians they pay for, but it means relatively little to the welfare of the American people.

Hear, hear! :thumbsup:

[alkemical]

Ever since Vietnam, it seems, people have understood the value of guerilla warfare. That's how we won the Revolutionary War, in part. Not only our militias, which did plenty of damage, but they say Washington won the war when he realized he had to keep the Brit armies at "arm's length" ... that 'winning the ground' didn't matter nearly as much as living to fight another day. Hit and run .... keep alive.

That's pretty much exactly how Hizbollah won ... by keeping IDF at arm's length ... hiding in living rooms with their portable missile launchers.

I think the days of visible armies all wearing the same uniforms are basically over. Uniforms in war. How quaint.


guerilla warfare = you win by not loosing

[Rohirrim]

Ever since Vietnam, it seems, people have understood the value of guerilla warfare. That's how we won the Revolutionary War, in part. Not only our militias, which did plenty of damage, but they say Washington won the war when he realized he had to keep the Brit armies at "arm's length" ... that 'winning the ground' didn't matter nearly as much as living to fight another day. Hit and run .... keep alive.

That's pretty much exactly how Hizbollah won ... by keeping IDF at arm's length ... hiding in living rooms with their portable missile launchers.

I think the days of visible armies all wearing the same uniforms are basically over. Uniforms in war. How quaint.

Hell, the Afghani warlords of 300 B.C. conducted guerilla warfare against Alexander.

If Hizbollah had any brains, they'd quit crowing about how they "won" and beat the Israelis. The Israelis conducted an incompetent campaign, and they know it. If Hizbollah goads them into taking another shot at it, the outcome will be decidely different. Still, judging by the appearance of Southern Lebanon, Hizbollah's "victory" is Pyrrhic at best. The U.S. should take the lesson to heart, though. If Iran was able to build tunnels and supply ammo in such a short time that allowed Hizbollah to hold Israel to a stalemate, imagine what Iran looks like?

[BroncoBuff]

It seems to me we have arrived at that point in history where we should completely disengage from the entire ME, let China, Russia and Europe decide the issue (they desperately need that oil - we don't), and we come home and take care of our own. We are fighting and dying and being vilified and attacked, for something that really shouldn't mean much to us. It may mean a lot to Exxon and Halliburton and the politicians they pay for, but it means relatively little to the welfare of the American people.
Your isolationist ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter :homer:

Seriously, everything you said makes sense, except "we don't need ME oil" ... plz explain.

[alkemical]

I don't think you can respond to globalism with tribalism. Look how that's working out in the ME.

[Spider]

Ever since Vietnam, it seems, people have understood the value of guerilla warfare. That's how we won the Revolutionary War, in part. Not only our militias, which did plenty of damage, but they say Washington won the war when he realized he had to keep the Brit armies at "arm's length" ... that 'winning the ground' didn't matter nearly as much as living to fight another day. Hit and run .... keep alive.

That's pretty much exactly how Hizbollah won ... by keeping IDF at arm's length ... hiding in living rooms with their portable missile launchers.

I think the days of visible armies all wearing the same uniforms are basically over. Uniforms in war. How quaint.
we held our own , but the French saved the day ...... the Siege of yorktown ......
Guerillia warfare is an excellent tactic , but hard to employ if you are defending an area ......therefore Hezbollah had to rely on the IDF not wanting to heat of killing innocent people ......... Just like that Building that was destroyed in lebanon , women and Children ....... No men ... why ? they was launching Missles thats why ........ but all we heard about was these poor women and Children .............and on the other hand I am sure Israel knew there were no men in that building , but they wanted to inflict as mush pain as possible ........ there are no innocents in this mess .......

[mhgaffney]

Why don't you quit insulting people? I don't have a short memory..

No short memory? Have you already forgotten it was you who tarred me with the worst slur a person can use against another -- when you recently accused me of being anti semitic? It was untrue -- but that apparently doesn't matter to you.

My crime? I had the audacity to criticize US and Israeli government policies -- policies which have increasingly made Americans into hated targets. But one can't speak such thoughts today without being tarred and feathered. No wonder that many good people who would otherwise speak out against what they know to be wrong -- are keeping their heads down. No one enjoys being the object of these slurs. How do you think AIPAC got control of our Congress? Answer: Largely by playing on fear.


.[/QUOTE] Again, had the government of Lebanon not been so weakened from its inception, there would have been little need for Israel to interfere in Lebanon's politics..[/QUOTE]

If you agree with Israel that Palestinians must be slaves then assuredly Israel did have cause to attack and invade Lebanon in 1982 -- to destroy the hated PLO. But if you believe that Palestinians are made in God's image like you and me and therefore have inalienable rights you must reach a very different conclusion. In that case Israel's aggressive behavior toward its neighbors is exactly what it appears to be.

.[/QUOTE]
Currently, the U.S. government is composed of idiots. Were that goverment composed of people who actually knew something about how the U.S. conducted its tactics in the Phillipines, for example, and followed those same anti-insurgency tactics, there would be little cause for celebration in the "so-called" Islamic world. .[/QUOTE]

Yeh, I'm aware of the extreme measures the US took in the Philippines. I personally do not take pride in the sort of slaughter you evidently approve of. Are you aware of the contradiction in your views, here? You oppose Bush in Iraq -- but have no problem with US imperialism in the far east.

The US had no business invading the Philippines more than a century ago -- just as today we have no business being in Iraq. Period.

[/QUOTE] As I understand it, lying in the oil shale of Wyoming, Colorado and Utah are over a trillion gallons of oil..[/QUOTE]

The oil shale can't be processed without devastating the environment. It requires enormous amounts of water -- which as you must know is precious on the West slope of Colorado. It also generates enormous quantities of waste. Developers would have to fill entire valleys with waste.

[Rohirrim]

No short memory? Have you already forgotten it was you who tarred me with the worst slur a person can use against another -- when you recently accused me of being anti semitic? It was untrue -- but that apparently doesn't matter to you.

My crime? I had the audacity to criticize US and Israeli government policies -- policies which have increasingly made Americans into hated targets. But one can't speak such thoughts today without being tarred and feathered. No wonder that many good people who would otherwise speak out against what they know to be wrong -- are keeping their heads down. No one enjoys being the object of these slurs. How do you think AIPAC got control of our Congress? Answer: Largely by playing on fear.

That's not true and you know it, although I appreciate your feigned "shock." You're sounding like Claude Rains in Casablanca. At every opportunity you side with the right of the Palestinians, and everybody else on earth, to kill Jews, by any and every possible means. In all of your posts, the Israelis are painted as comic book villians: Always bad, always evil, always wrong, with no redeeming qualities whatsover - and with no right to exist. I wouldn't characterize your position as exactly "nuanced," would you?


.[/QUOTE] Again, had the government of Lebanon not been so weakened from its inception, there would have been little need for Israel to interfere in Lebanon's politics..[/QUOTE]

If you agree with Israel that Palestinians must be slaves then assuredly Israel did have cause to attack and invade Lebanon in 1982 -- to destroy the hated PLO. But if you believe that Palestinians are made in God's image like you and me and therefore have inalienable rights you must reach a very different conclusion. In that case Israel's aggressive behavior toward its neighbors is exactly what it appears to be.

How you got to your point B from my point A is anybody's guess. What I wrote above has nothing to do with how you totally warped it.

.[/QUOTE]
Currently, the U.S. government is composed of idiots. Were that goverment composed of people who actually knew something about how the U.S. conducted its tactics in the Phillipines, for example, and followed those same anti-insurgency tactics, there would be little cause for celebration in the "so-called" Islamic world. .[/QUOTE]

Yeh, I'm aware of the extreme measures the US took in the Philippines. I personally do not take pride in the sort of slaughter you evidently approve of. Are you aware of the contradiction in your views, here? You oppose Bush in Iraq -- but have no problem with US imperialism in the far east.

The US had no business invading the Philippines more than a century ago -- just as today we have no business being in Iraq. Period.

Obviously, I'm talking about overall anti-insurgency strategy here, not the "rightness" of the invasion itself. IMO, invading Iraq is one of the stupidest acts in American history. I was specifically referring to the failing strategies employed by this government. You continue to warp things beyond all reason to say whatever you want them to mean. But again, I can point out one difference between us; I do believe in that the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist. Frankly, if I have to choose between guys who work for Halliburton driving trucks and guys who want to saw their heads off with kitchen knives, I'll take the Halliburton employee every time. You seem to harbor the absolutist's penchant for purity.

[/QUOTE] As I understand it, lying in the oil shale of Wyoming, Colorado and Utah are over a trillion gallons of oil..[/QUOTE]

The oil shale can't be processed without devastating the environment. It requires enormous amounts of water -- which as you must know is precious on the West slope of Colorado. It also generates enormous quantities of waste. Developers would have to fill entire valleys with waste.

Really. I was just reading a report about how they are trying new technologies to heat the shale underground, without using water, and then being able to simply pump out the oil. Personally, I'm not a Luddite. I beleive technological problems can be solved by technology. My point was (which again, you pretend to miss) that the U.S. gets a very small percentage of its oil from the ME and should not be the oil cop for the rest of the world merely to protect the margins of U.S. oil companies. If the Europe and Japan need that oil, let them make the unholy alliance with those corrupt regimes. Hell, we could probably knock off that 8% we get from the ME simply by changing the CAFE standards.

[Rohirrim]

No short memory? Have you already forgotten it was you who tarred me with the worst slur a person can use against another -- when you recently accused me of being anti semitic? It was untrue -- but that apparently doesn't matter to you.

My crime? I had the audacity to criticize US and Israeli government policies -- policies which have increasingly made Americans into hated targets. But one can't speak such thoughts today without being tarred and feathered. No wonder that many good people who would otherwise speak out against what they know to be wrong -- are keeping their heads down. No one enjoys being the object of these slurs. How do you think AIPAC got control of our Congress? Answer: Largely by playing on fear.

That's not true and you know it, although I appreciate your feigned "shock." You're sounding like Claude Rains in Casablanca. NTM, I can think of hundreds of worse slurs than "anti-Semite," but I appreciate the drama. Ha!

At every opportunity you side with the right of the Palestinians, and everybody else on earth, to kill Jews, by any and every possible means. In all of your posts, the Israelis are painted as comic book villians: Always bad, always evil, always wrong, with no redeeming qualities whatsover - and with no right to exist. I wouldn't characterize your position as exactly "nuanced," would you?


[/QUOTE] Again, had the government of Lebanon not been so weakened from its inception, there would have been little need for Israel to interfere in Lebanon's politics..[/QUOTE]

If you agree with Israel that Palestinians must be slaves then assuredly Israel did have cause to attack and invade Lebanon in 1982 -- to destroy the hated PLO. But if you believe that Palestinians are made in God's image like you and me and therefore have inalienable rights you must reach a very different conclusion. In that case Israel's aggressive behavior toward its neighbors is exactly what it appears to be.

How you got to your point B from my point A is anybody's guess. What I wrote above has nothing to do with how you totally warped it.

[/QUOTE]
Currently, the U.S. government is composed of idiots. Were that goverment composed of people who actually knew something about how the U.S. conducted its tactics in the Phillipines, for example, and followed those same anti-insurgency tactics, there would be little cause for celebration in the "so-called" Islamic world. .[/QUOTE]

Yeh, I'm aware of the extreme measures the US took in the Philippines. I personally do not take pride in the sort of slaughter you evidently approve of. Are you aware of the contradiction in your views, here? You oppose Bush in Iraq -- but have no problem with US imperialism in the far east.

The US had no business invading the Philippines more than a century ago -- just as today we have no business being in Iraq. Period.

Obviously, I'm talking about overall anti-insurgency strategy here, not the "rightness" of the invasion itself. IMO, invading Iraq is one of the stupidest acts in American history. I was specifically referring to the failing strategies employed by this government. You continue to warp things beyond all reason to say whatever you want them to mean. But again, I can point out one difference between us; I do believe in that the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist. Frankly, if I have to choose between guys who work for Halliburton driving trucks and guys who want to saw their heads off with kitchen knives, I'll take the Halliburton employee every time. You seem to harbor the absolutist's penchant for purity.

[/QUOTE] As I understand it, lying in the oil shale of Wyoming, Colorado and Utah are over a trillion gallons of oil..[/QUOTE]

The oil shale can't be processed without devastating the environment. It requires enormous amounts of water -- which as you must know is precious on the West slope of Colorado. It also generates enormous quantities of waste. Developers would have to fill entire valleys with waste.

Really. I was just reading a report about how they are trying new technologies to heat the shale underground, without using water, and then being able to simply pump out the oil. Personally, I'm not a Luddite. I beleive technological problems can be solved by technology. My point was (which again, you pretend to miss) that the U.S. gets a very small percentage of its oil from the ME and should not be the oil cop for the rest of the world merely to protect the margins of U.S. oil companies. If the Europe and Japan need that oil, let them make the unholy alliance with those corrupt regimes. Hell, we could probably knock off that 8% we get from the ME simply by changing the CAFE standards.

[mhgaffney]

At every opportunity you side with the right of the Palestinians, and everybody else on earth, to kill Jews, by any and every possible means. In all of your posts, the Israelis are painted as comic book villians: Always bad, always evil, always wrong, with no redeeming qualities whatsover - and with no right to exist. I wouldn't characterize your position as exactly "nuanced," would you?.

I've stated my position as clearly as I know how. Zionism has turned out to be just another ugly form of colonialism. We've seen it before at different times and in many places. Zionism is no different. It steals the land and denies the rights of the indigenous people. Just last week we learned of another land siezure by Israel -- another 300-400 acres of Arab land in the W Bank will become a new Jewish settlement. Also, recently, another peace activist was killed by a "rubber" bullet. Israel routinely fires on peace activists demonstrating against the "security" wall. I should add that these peace demos are a mix of Jews, Arabs, and internationals from many countries.

Israel has a right to exist behind the green line, the pre 1967 border. The whole world recognizes this formula for peace -- all except Israel and the US. That's as nuanced as I can make it.

.[/QUOTE] I do believe that the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist..... You seem to harbor the absolutist's penchant for purity.
[/QUOTE]

Are you aware you contradict yourself?

According to your own logic when George Bush bombs and kills 100,000 Iraqis he is a terrorist and deserves to die.

[bendog]

I'm willing to accept that Likud and prolly Kadima do not want peace, and when opportunity knocks, they exacerbate tensions by killing people, though they are nominally targeting bad guys. They want the land.

I'm also willing to accept that the majority of Israelies realize that simply pulling out of occupied territories will not make Israel safer, and in fact would do the opposite, eg after leavign gaza, hamas was still shooting rockets into villages inside Israel.

I'm also willing to accept there's no real consensus amongst the Palestinians to accept the WB in exchange for peace.

I'm also willing to accept the US currently is doing ****e to further a peaceful consenus amongst the Pales.

[Rohirrim]

According to your own logic when George Bush bombs and kills 100,000 Iraqis he is a terrorist and deserves to die.

And according to your logic, anyone, conducting war on any level, regardless of the cause, is a terrorist - except Hamas and Hizbollah?

[mhgaffney]

And according to your logic, anyone, conducting war on any level, regardless of the cause, is a terrorist - except Hamas and Hizbollah?

You made a sweeping statement that the "only good terrorist is a dead terrorist." I responded to that.

The question I would ask you is: But who exactly are the terrorists?

I have no doubt that King George III of England regarded our founding fathers as terrorists. Would you agree with him?

Or do you believe that oppressed people have the right to fight for their freedom? And do people have the right to fight an invader when their country is occupied by a foreign power?

I believe they do. If you agree then you must support the right of the Lebanese to defend their nation when Israel invaded it. And you must support the right of Palestinians in the West Bank to resist Israeli military occupation of their land.

Some years ago the UN general assembly passed a resolution strongly condemning terrorism. It passed by an overwhelming margin. In fact, only two or three states voted against it. One of these was the US.

But why would the US vote against a UN resolution that strongly condemned terrorism? The resolution included a passage stating the right of oppressed people to fight for their freedom. Evidently, the US no longer believes in the rights of the down trodden. This helps to explain US policy in the Mideast. We supported Saddam Hussein for many years as we currently support tyranny in Egypt and other Arab states. We also support Israel's policies of apartheid, including its colonization of the best Arab lands in the West Bank. It's morally wrong -- but empires don't follow morality. Imperial policies are based on sheer expedience.

In my opinion we went wrong when we took the path of empire. I look forward to the day when we bring our troops home. We must give up trying to dominate the world and begin to lead by the power of good example.

MHG

[Rohirrim]

[B]You made a sweeping statement that the "only good terrorist is a dead terrorist." I responded to that.

The question I would ask you is: But who exactly are the terrorists?

I have no doubt that King George III of England regarded our founding fathers as terrorists. Would you agree with him?

Or do you believe that oppressed people have the right to fight for their freedom? And do people have the right to fight an invader when their country is occupied by a foreign power?

A terrorist is not a freedom fighter, or a revolutionary, or a defender of his country, or an oppressed person. A terrorist is someone whose fundamental tactic is to attack and kill the innocent in the most heinous ways imaginable in order to sow fear and terror. The terrorist consciously bypasses engagement with an opposing military force in order to target civilians. The terrorist wears the cloak of the freedom fighter in order to disguise the fact that he's a psychopath filled with so much impotent rage that he will decapitate already subdued captives and firebomb school buses filled with children. The terrorist hides among the civilian population because his psychopathy is not only directed at his enemy, but clouds his thinking to such an extent that in his obsession to express his hatred, even his countrymen are mere fodder to be thrown under the treads. He lives in a fictional world, filled with heroic imagery and martyrdom. He mouths the words of the oppressed, of the wronged, of the righteous warrior, and yet he is no more than a cornered rat; the remnants of a failed culture lashing out in a last paroxysm of rage against the inevitablity of the future, blaming his opponent for his own failure to adapt, and doomed as any anachronism to be weeded out of the gene pool.

I believe they do. If you agree then you must support the right of the Lebanese to defend their nation when Israel invaded it. And you must support the right of Palestinians in the West Bank to resist Israeli military occupation of their land.

Like I've said many times before, had the Palestinians employed the tactics of Gandhi, they would already be living peacefully in their own state. The only victory the terrorist can look forward to is scorched earth for himself, his people, and his cause. In effect, he is bombing himself, and his people, into the stone age. Those who are more militarily powerful will always respond to terror with righteous anger. The cause of either party, right or wrong, will be extinguished by fury.

Some years ago the UN general assembly passed a resolution strongly condemning terrorism. It passed by an overwhelming margin. In fact, only two or three states voted against it. One of these was the US.

I don't know the particulars of this. What was the reasoning given? What else was in the resolution? I know the UN has a habit of using resolutions (often spawned by Syria, Russia, China, France, et al) written in such a way as to publicly chastise the U.S., and then asks the U.S. to vote in the affirmative for that resolution. What was the entire text of the resolution?

But why would the US vote against a UN resolution that strongly condemned terrorism? The resolution included a passage stating the right of oppressed people to fight for their freedom. Evidently, the US no longer believes in the rights of the down trodden.
I'm guessing this is a gross oversimplification for the purposes of pure drama.

This helps to explain US policy in the Mideast. We supported Saddam Hussein for many years as we currently support tyranny in Egypt and other Arab states. We also support Israel's policies of apartheid, including its colonization of the best Arab lands in the West Bank. It's morally wrong -- but empires don't follow morality. Imperial policies are based on sheer expedience.

Not just sheer expedience. For once, I agree with you. This is what Eisenhower warned us about - the effects of the military/industrial complex. If we don't disengage the United States from their influence, we are lost. It may already be too late. If we don't disengage our government from the control of international corporatism and the MIC, our true values, written in our founding documents, become nothing but empty words.

In my opinion we went wrong when we took the path of empire. I look forward to the day when we bring our troops home. We must give up trying to dominate the world and begin to lead by the power of good example.


I agree.

[alkemical]

A terrorist is not a freedom fighter, or a revolutionary, or a defender of his country, or an oppressed person. A terrorist is someone whose fundamental tactic is to attack and kill the innocent in the most heinous ways imaginable in order to sow fear and terror. The terrorist consciously bypasses engagement with an opposing military force in order to target civilians. The terrorist wears the cloak of the freedom fighter in order to disguise the fact that he's a psychopath filled with so much impotent rage that he will decapitate already subdued captives and firebomb school buses filled with children. The terrorist hides among the civilian population because his psychopathy is not only directed at his enemy, but clouds his thinking to such an extent that in his obsession to express his hatred, even his countrymen are mere fodder to be thrown under the treads. He lives in a fictional world, filled with heroic imagery and martyrdom. He mouths the words of the oppressed, of the wronged, of the righteous warrior, and yet he is no more than a cornered rat; the remnants of a failed culture lashing out in a last paroxysm of rage against the inevitablity of the future, blaming his opponent for his own failure to adapt, and doomed as any anachronism to be weeded out of the gene pool.

I can disagree somewhat with parts of this. A terrorist is defined by the opposition. Just as history is written by the victor.



Like I've said many times before, had the Palestinians employed the tactics of Gandhi, they would already be living peacefully in their own state. The only victory the terrorist can look forward to is scorched earth for himself, his people, and his cause. In effect, he is bombing himself, and his people, into the stone age. Those who are more militarily powerful will always respond to terror with righteous anger. The cause of either party, right or wrong, will be extinguished by fury.


This is the only way accomplish this. Old alchemical sayings state a principal of equivalent exchange, or as physics changed it to "for ever action has an equal reaction...."

I could go much further into this, but i just wanted to briefly pop in.

[bendog]

A terrorist is not a freedom fighter, or a revolutionary, or a defender of his country, or an oppressed person. A terrorist is someone whose fundamental tactic is to attack and kill the innocent in the most heinous ways imaginable in order to sow fear and terror. The terrorist consciously bypasses engagement with an opposing military force in order to target civilians. The terrorist wears the cloak of the freedom fighter in order to disguise the fact that he's a psychopath filled with so much impotent rage that he will decapitate already subdued captives and firebomb school buses filled with children. The terrorist hides among the civilian population because his psychopathy is not only directed at his enemy, but clouds his thinking to such an extent that in his obsession to express his hatred, even his countrymen are mere fodder to be thrown under the treads. He lives in a fictional world, filled with heroic imagery and martyrdom. He mouths the words of the oppressed, of the wronged, of the righteous warrior, and yet he is no more than a cornered rat; the remnants of a failed culture lashing out in a last paroxysm of rage against the inevitablity of the future, blaming his opponent for his own failure to adapt, and doomed as any anachronism to be weeded out of the gene pool.



Like I've said many times before, had the Palestinians employed the tactics of Gandhi, they would already be living peacefully in their own state. The only victory the terrorist can look forward to is scorched earth for himself, his people, and his cause. In effect, he is bombing himself, and his people, into the stone age. Those who are more militarily powerful will always respond to terror with righteous anger. The cause of either party, right or wrong, will be extinguished by fury.



I don't know the particulars of this. What was the reasoning given? What else was in the resolution? I know the UN has a habit of using resolutions (often spawned by Syria, Russia, China, France, et al) written in such a way as to publicly chastise the U.S., and then asks the U.S. to vote in the affirmative for that resolution. What was the entire text of the resolution?


I'm guessing this is a gross oversimplification for the purposes of pure drama.



Not just sheer expedience. For once, I agree with you. This is what Eisenhower warned us about - the effects of the military/industrial complex. If we don't disengage the United States from their influence, we are lost. It may already be too late. If we don't disengage our government from the control of international corporatism and the MIC, our true values, written in our founding documents, become nothing but empty words.



I agree.

Yet the state of Israel itself is the result of zionist terrorists attacking the nominally sympathetic Brits protectorate force. Begin blowing up a bunch of brit officers in the King David Hotel being the most notorious.

But, yeah there's something cultural about the pales not being able accept a peace not based on a military victory of sorts.

[bendog]

but then,
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060829/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_war_story