Falcons Make It Clear That Lelie Is The 3rd WR

[GonzoLays]

Lelie will arrive in Atlanta as the Falcons' No. 3 receiver behind Michael Jenkins and Roddy White. Lelie, according to the NFL sources, recently spoke at length with Falcons officials, who made it clear he was coming to the team as a No. 3.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nfl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23918_4937878,00.html

Hilarious!

Just plain stupidity on Ashley's part. Had he just stayed with us, accepted his demotion like a man, I am sure he would have found a situation next year where he could have been the number 1 receiver. Now, he essentially made himself look like an ass by demanding to be traded, no team even offered a measly 2nd round pick for him, and then when he is traded, he accepts to become what he did not want in Denver -- the third receiver. WTF? I don't think for one second he can beat out Jenkins or White for the starting job this late in camp.

Ashley you got to be the dumbest mofo in the NFL.

[fontaine]

Lelie will arrive in Atlanta as the Falcons' No. 3 receiver behind Michael Jenkins and Roddy White. Lelie, according to the NFL sources, recently spoke at length with Falcons officials, who made it clear he was coming to the team as a No. 3.


But I thought it was Jake's fault that Lelie wasn't putting up huge stats, oh no wait, it was Shanahan and his offense that limited Lelie, oh no wait, it was the moon's gravitational pull that was obviously different than it was in Hawaii!

Damn stupid Falcons. Don't they know Ashley Lelie is a stud WR who can run all the routes and has great hands and is a number 1 WR!

At least now the delusional posters here who think Lelie is a number 1 WR and we're not using him right can finally STFU.

[Orange_Beard]

He should hold out.

[WolfpackGuy]

I think Lelie and Kennison go to the same shrink...

[Mile High Shack]

that doesn't surprise me
if he was mad at how Jake threw the ball, wait till he gets a load of Michael Vick

[fontaine]

He should hold out.

I still can't fathom the sheer stupidity of Lelie in this case.

In Denver he was assured that it would be the best WR starts scenario verified by the rise of rookie FA Mike Bell.

In Atlanta he's being told to STFU and take the number 3 job without an open fair competition.

In the process he's forked over $1million in fines etc.

That seems like a lot of money spent just to get jacked right in the nutsack by the Falcons.

What a dumba$$.

[-Slap-]

that doesn't surprise me
if he was mad at how Jake threw the ball, wait till he gets a load of Michael Vick
That was the first thought to cross my mind. He'll look good when Schaub plays, though.......:)

[Mile High Shack]

I still can't fathom the sheer stupidity of Lelie in this case.

In Denver he was assured that it would be the best WR starts scenario verified by the rise of rookie FA Mike Bell.

In Atlanta he's being told to STFU and take the number 3 job without an open fair competition.

In the process he's forked over $1million in fines etc.

That seems like a lot of money spent just to get jacked right in the nutsack by the Falcons.

What a dumba$$.

it's not like he'll get a huge contract next year either
he will put up less numbers in Atlanta than he would've in Denver. Whoever advised Lilly to do this is either a secret friend of Shanny or the biggest idiot agent to step foot on the face of the earth

[fontaine]

it's not like he'll get a huge contract next year either
he will put up less numbers in Atlanta than he would've in Denver. Whoever advised Lilly to do this is either a secret friend of Shanny or the biggest idiot agent to step foot on the face of the earth

So it turns out Shanahan, Sunquist, and Rod were right on the money when they said Lelie was getting some really bad advice.

[Rohirrim]

All I can do is Hilarious! This goes to the top of the list under "Dumb Moves by a Football Player." Wait! No, Clarette still has the all-time top spot. The Falcons will appreciate Lilies highlight film catches - always made after the other team has the game in the bag.

[BroncoInferno]

ROFL! He'll catch about 30 passes as the 3rd with Ron Mexico tossing him the rock.

[BroncoInferno]

So it turns out Shanahan, Sunquist, and Rod were right on the money when they said Lelie was getting some really bad advice.

Bastards conspiring to ruin Lelie's career. They know he is a beast going over the middle and would thrive with a QB who hits his receivers perfectly in stride on every deep pass play (no, really; they do exist!). They just don't like him is all, the meanies! Hilarious!

[Arkansas Bronco]

He should hold out.
LOL No he only does that when the team has a legit shot at the SUper Bowl.

[Mediator12]

So, the Falcons have acquired another first round speed WR that can not go over the Middle??? West Coast offense? Why?

[Steve Sewell]

So, the Falcons have acquired another first round speed WR that can not go over the Middle??? West Coast offense? Why?

Yeah you wonder that, and then think back as to why the Atlanta franchise has for the most part sucked balls for it's entire history...

[Arkansas Bronco]

Maybey it is so they can pull all the DB's way down field to clear out the outsides for Vick to run too. ???

[Orange_Beard]

I still can't fathom the sheer stupidity of Lelie in this case.

In Denver he was assured that it would be the best WR starts scenario verified by the rise of rookie FA Mike Bell.

In Atlanta he's being told to STFU and take the number 3 job without an open fair competition.

In the process he's forked over $1million in fines etc.

That seems like a lot of money spent just to get jacked right in the nutsack by the Falcons.

What a dumba$$.


Agree.

That is why it makes sense to continue his hold out until Atl. trades him to a team where he could be number 1.

[Jason in LA]

I'd say he would be better off being the #3 for the Broncos than the #3 for the Falcons. Being #3 for the Falcons is like being #4 because of Crumpler.

I think the Falcons are just saying that for now. I don't see how Lelie couldn't beat out those two guys.

[Broncos4Life]

Lelie is one stupid muther phukcer.

[bronco militia]

So, the Falcons have acquired another first round speed WR that can not go over the Middle??? West Coast offense? Why?


because it's never Vicks fault.....

[Taco John]

This is easily the dumbest thing I've ever seen a football player do to himself. It hurts to even think about how many levels of stupidity this move represented.

Bobby Humphrey looks like friggin' Einstein right about now in comparison.

[Mediator12]

Again, the Falcons Draft SPEED WR in the first round in two consecutive drafts. Then, they acquire another Speed WR as a #3 WR. They have Vick. West Coast Offense is like fitting a square peg in a round hole. Greg Knapp and Jim Mora are looking Stupid as hell in the passing game.

[plummerrox]

I say congratualtions to Ashley - he can now be the next Falcons Wide Receiver that is blamed for being constantly overthrown by Michael Vick...

[Odysseus]

it's not like he'll get a huge contract next year either
he will put up less numbers in Atlanta than he would've in Denver. Whoever advised Lilly to do this is either a secret friend of Shanny or the biggest idiot agent to step foot on the face of the earth

Remember when I said it was Javon who pumped his head with this idea? Remember when I said it was a thing of pride? Remember when I said early screw this guy?

At this point I wish Lelie all the best. I was bitterly disappointed that he chose to try and ransom the Broncos season for his own glory. In the end he was just a speed bump for better recievers and he did get a chance to play for one of the top flight organizations in the NFL. The Broncos did a good thing for Ashley. He should be thankful.

[bronco militia]

what's even dumber is the Mora telling Lelie that he won't be able to compete for a job....and what kind of message does this send to the rest of the team?

[BroncoInferno]

what's even dumber is the Mora telling Lelie that he won't be able to compete for a job....and what kind of message does this send to the rest of the team?

That is dumb. If Lelie comes in and plays better than White and Jenkins, why would Mora keep him at #3? On principle? That's a silly thing to do. Glad we have Shanny who makes players earn their spot.

[ludo21]

i doubt he means he wont compete.

Lelie will be #1 by the end of the year for them imo.

[Jason in LA]

Looking at those other two guys, I'd say Lelie will be #1 within the first few games.

[freak6]

Lelie will be #1 by the end of the year for them imo.

I think Lelie is automatically the best WR on the team as soon as this deal was announced. But I don't know if Mora will move Lelie up with comments like he had yesterday. Everyone is dogging out Lelie for being the btch that he is, but those knocking his game I think are wrong, and I agree that Lelie could have a nice season with the Falcons, the team he should have been drafted by in the 1st place. Now they got it right, and traded the guy they took instead for Ashley.

Crazy.

[fontaine]

I think Lelie is the automatically the best WR on the team as soon as this deal was announced. But I don't know if Mora will move Lelie up with comments like he had yesterday. Everyone is dogging out Lelie for being the btch that he is, but those knocking his game I think are wrong, and I agree that Lelie could have a nice season with the Falcons, the team he should have been drafted by in the 1st place. Now they got it right, and traded the guy they took instead for Ashley.

Crazy.

What game?

so you're saying a WCO that feeds off short yardage passes and big physical WRs running for yards after the catch fits Lelie?

You do realize their old number 3 WR (Finneran) who was lost to an ACL was a physical guy that was used for short passes and not the long ball.

Also Mike Vick completed just 12 passes for more than 25 yards last season which was bad enough to be among the worst for starting QBs in the league.

After Vick is done with him, Lelie will be having wet dreams about Plummer and longing for his days in Denver.

Anyone who thinks Lelie is in the "right" situation really needs to step back into the reality of the Falcons + Mike Vick.

Lelie's "right" situation was in Denver where he was promised fair and open competition when Walker/Rod would take a lot of the heat off him and get him isolated one on one against CBs as well as being in a SuperBowl contender with an aging WR who has at the most one or two years left (do I have to mention Cutler). Lelie's numbers would have been a lot better here.

Compare that to the situation Lelie is in now with a QB who's top WR has never caught more than 60 passes or a 1000 yards, short $1million in fines etc, and kicked in the nuts after being told he's no better than the 3rd WR.

And oh yeah, he has about two weeks or so to learn that offense. So much for Lelie being the best WR in that team!

ROFL!

[BroncoInferno]

Also Mike Vick completed just 12 passes for more than 25 yards last season which was bad enough to be among the worst for starting QBs in the league.

Lelie will catch about 30 or 35 passes this year playing with Mexico.

[Antilles]

After Vick is done with him, Lelie will be having wet dreams about Plummer and longing for his days in Denver.


Lelie's "right" situation was in Denver where he was promised fair and open competition when Walker/Rod would take a lot of the heat off him and get him isolated one on one against CBs as well as being in a SuperBowl contender with an aging WR who has at the most one or two years left (do I have to mention Cutler). Lelie's numbers would have been a lot better here.



You just reminded me of something: remember how Ian Gold left for greener pastures only to return a year later? Rod will be another year older next season. While I have no enthusiam for getting Ash back and I am certain Mike has even less, that would be some funny ****.

[denver5459]

Way to go Ashley. Great move.

[freak6]

What game?

so you're saying a WCO that feeds off short yardage passes and big physical WRs running for yards after the catch fits Lelie?

You do realize their old number 3 WR (Finneran) who was lost to an ACL was a physical guy that was used for short passes and not the long ball.


Lelie at the #3 will stretch the D opening up the middle for Crumpler and Co. I think he's the best WR they got though. Jenkins and White are real suspect. Finneran was garbage, Eddie Mac without hands. Ashley is a huge improvement for them.

[BroncoInferno]

Lelie at the #3 will stretch the D opening up the middle for Crumpler and Co. I think he's the best WR they got though. Jenkins and White are real suspect. Finneran was garbage, Eddie Mac without hands. Ashley is a huge improvement for them.

On the surface. But Jenkins went in the 2004 draft and White went in 2005, so they both may be ready to take a step up.

[fdf]

Just plain stupidity on Ashley's part. Had he just stayed with us, accepted his demotion like a man, I am sure he would have found a situation next year where he could have been the number 1 receiver.

Not sure I agree. I have never thought he was number one material. The reason Atlanta has him slotted at three is because that's where he belongs. He will be a VERY good #3 receiver. That's eventually where he will end up on most teams he signs with because that's what he is.

He'll have a nice career as a number 3 if he can get his panties untwisted.

[fontaine]

Lelie at the #3 will stretch the D opening up the middle for Crumpler and Co. I think he's the best WR they got though. Jenkins and White are real suspect. Finneran was garbage, Eddie Mac without hands. Ashley is a huge improvement for them.

If White is worse than Lelie then how come he caught more TDs than Lelie last year as a rookie with Vick throwing him the ball?

So did Micheal Jenkins actually.

So did Brian Finneran.

But then again, practically the entire freakin' league caught more TDs than Lelie last year, and even though you think Lelie is the best WR they got, it's funny that Mora doesn't seem to think so as he told Lelie you're number 3.

Oh wait, I know, the conspiracy against Lelie continues and Jim Mora is against him too right?
:rofl:

[broncsyanks]

hey this is great for us overall we get a 3rd rounder and a later pick as well. also we get to see lelie in atlanta and we all know there offense exists around vick. HE IS A RUNNING QB!! THIS IS GOING TO BE HYSTERICAL IMO!

watch lets take a poll how long it takes for vick to turn around and say this stinks playing here in atlanta after he finds out he should be blocking for the qb

[BroncoInferno]

If White is worse than Lelie then how come he caught more TDs than Lelie last year as a rookie with Vick throwing him the ball?

So did Micheal Jenkins actually.

So did Brian Finneran.

But then again, practically the entire freakin' league caught more TDs than Lelie last year, and even though you think Lelie is the best WR they got, it's funny that Mora doesn't seem to think so as he told Lelie you're number 3.

Oh wait, I know, the conspiracy against Lelie continues and Jim Mora is against him too right?
:rofl:

Obviously, Mora was so desperate to continue the oppression of Lelie that he was willing to give up TJ Duckett to ensure the process continues. Collusion, I tell ya, collusion!

[freak6]

If White is worse than Lelie then how come he caught more TDs than Lelie last year as a rookie with Vick throwing him the ball?


Here we go with the complaints that Ashley didn't score enough TD's last year. This is as bad as Right Wingers claiming they found the WMDs...lmao!!!

Someone cue the tape of Ashley with 10 full yards of seperation vs the Jets, only having to come to a COMPLETE STOP to catch the duck from Jake.

Ashley easily could have had 5 TD's last year, the problem was the QB, not the WR.

[fontaine]

Here we go with the complaints that Ashley didn't score enough TD's last year. This is as bad as Right Wingers claiming they found the WMDs...lmao!!!

Someone cue the tape of Ashley with 10 full yards of seperation vs the Jets, only having to come to a COMPLETE STOP to catch the duck from Jake.

Ashley easily could have had 5 TD's last year, the problem was the QB, not the WR.

Sure. Let me guess, Jake didnt' have enough arm strength or accuracy in a 20 yard red zone right?

Funny, Sharpe/Rod/Kyle freakin' Johnson caught multiple TD passes from Jake but when it came to Lelie, Jake just choked right?

Lelie did catch 7 TDs two season ago, but guess what, they were all deep passes and not in the red zone.

Anyway see you later freak15. Good luck in the Atlanta Falcons message boards.

[Mediator12]

Anyone care to hazard how often the Falcons ran 3 WR sets?

Come on.


















36% of the time for 31st in the league LMAO.
Compared to denvers 39% for 28th.

Sucks to be lelie!

[Orange_Beard]

i doubt he means he wont compete.

Lelie will be #1 by the end of the year for them imo.


Why would he compete? Don't they know he should be #1.

He should hold out.

[fontaine]

Anyone care to hazard how often the Falcons ran 3 WR sets?

Come on.


















36% of the time for 31st in the league LMAO.
Compared to denvers 39% for 28th.

Sucks to be lelie!

STFU. What do you know! Stats can be skewed to show anything! Lelie is the best WR the Falcons have and the the football ghost of Johnnie Unitas will possess Michael Vick into throwing hundreds of perfectly thrown, deep passes to Ashley Lelie!

:wiggle:

[watermock]

This is such an ass reaming of Snyder and Lelie that even PFT can't find anything to bitch about regarding "The Teflon Coach". He would of if he had even a single angle. I'm sure he tried. He's such a collosal prick. Decent article explaining how Lelie screwed himself tho.

LELIE'S EXIT BILL COULD BE HUGE

Though we'd previously heard rumblings that any exit via trade from Denver by receiver Ashley Lelie would include a resolution of his potential fines and bonus forfeitures, there's presently no indication that the Broncos and Lelie have resolved the potential financial consequences resulting from his lengthy holdout.

Per Bill Williamson of the Denver Post, the numbers are significant. At $14,000 per day, Lelie owes $378,000 in fines for failing to come to camp. Lelie also was hit with $11,000 in fines for failing to report to a mandatory minicamp.

Plus, based on Lelie's original signing bonus of $3.3 million, the team might be able to recover up to $1.1 million, if the team successfully argues that the $3.3 million was initially spread over six years, and that he owes them for the unallocated portion reflecting the fifth year ($550,000) and the sixth year ($550,000), even if the sixth season has been voided. (It's possible that this specific issue is unprecedented, and might be fodder for an eventual arbitration hearing.)

That translates to up to $1.489 million in after-tax money owed to the Broncos, in a season in which Lelie will earn a base salary of only $600,000 before taxes.

Moreover, Lelie lost a $100,000 workout bonus by staying away from the team's offseason program.

Meanwhile, to the extent that Lelie wanted out of Denver because he feared not getting many looks as the No. 3 wideout on a depth chart that included Rod Smith and Javon Walker, Lelie likely will enter Atlanta as No. 3 guy on the depth chart behind Michael Jenkins and Roddy White in an offense that features an unconventional quarterback who typically rolls out of the pocket and looks for tight end Alge Crumpler.

Last year, Smith and Lelie combined for 127 receptions, 1,875 yards, and 7 scores. Atlanta's leading receiver was Crumpler, and the top two wideouts combined for only 86 catches, 1,119 yards, and five touchdowns.

Williamson also reports that the Falcons have no plans to rework Lelie's deal, which expires after the season.

Our guess? Once Lelie gets a taste of life in the Tex Mex offense, he'll be ready to play out the year and move on.

[plummershelper]

Lelie will catch about 30 or 35 passes this year playing with Mexico.

I'm betting the only thing Lelie catches from Mexico is a raging case of herpes

[WABronco]

Lelie will arrive in Atlanta as the Falcons' No. 3 receiver behind Michael Jenkins and Roddy White. Lelie, according to the NFL sources, recently spoke at length with Falcons officials, who made it clear he was coming to the team as a No. 3.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nfl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23918_4937878,00.html

Hilarious!

Just plain stupidity on Ashley's part. Had he just stayed with us, accepted his demotion like a man, I am sure he would have found a situation next year where he could have been the number 1 receiver. Now, he essentially made himself look like an ass by demanding to be traded, no team even offered a measly 2nd round pick for him, and then when he is traded, he accepts to become what he did not want in Denver -- the third receiver. WTF? I don't think for one second he can beat out Jenkins or White for the starting job this late in camp.

Ashley you got to be the dumbest mofo in the NFL.

Rod Smith
Javon Walker

or

Michael Jenkins
Roddy White

I like his chances in Atlanta. That and Vick throws downfield once every four passes.

[WABronco]

Anyone care to hazard how often the Falcons ran 3 WR sets?

Come on.

36% of the time for 31st in the league LMAO.
Compared to denvers 39% for 28th.

Sucks to be lelie!
We'll see. He may change that percentage.

Besides, I think the chances are pretty good that Vick has his typical below average year going by Week 6 and they decide to blame the starting 2.

[Mediator12]

Rod Smith
Javon Walker

or

Michael Jenkins
Roddy White

I like his chances in Atlanta. That and Vick throws downfield once every four passes.

But does he hit anything when he throws downfield !Booya!

[freak6]

Sure. Let me guess, Jake didnt' have enough arm strength or accuracy in a 20 yard red zone right?

Lelie did catch 7 TDs two season ago, but guess what, they were all deep passes and not in the red zone.



Fontaine, you are talking out of your ass. Perhaps you should actually review the tape, and you'd see that Ashley should have had 5 TDs, but Jake underthrew him so many times. How do you think he got 7 TDs in 2004, because Jake was hitting him IN the endzone.

That says Ashley is beating the defender, and then making the catch, with no YAC.

In fact, every one of his TDs came on plays started on the opponents side of the field.

He actually had more YAC in 2005 than in 2004, even though he had 300 fewer actual recieving yards.

But fk me for actually using EVIDENCE to show that his TDs were down due to the QB throwing ducks, and where the ducks were launched from.

He still led the league in YPC.

[WABronco]

But does he hit anything when he throws downfield !Booya!
Pshhh...Lelie can adjust to poorly thrown deep balls.;D

I don't know...I just like the dynamic of Vick-to-Lelie. He'll be back there running all over the place, then he just looks up and guns it downfield in a Vick "dump off." We'll see.

Hey, I read that Atlanta isn't interested in re-signing him as of right now. Any interest?:rofl:

[BroncoInferno]

Fontaine, you are talking out of your ass. Perhaps you should actually review the tape, and you'd see that Ashley should have had 5 TDs, but Jake underthrew him so many times. How do you think he got 7 TDs in 2004, because Jake was hitting him IN the endzone.

That says Ashley is beating the defender, and then making the catch, with no YAC.

In fact, every one of his TDs came on plays started on the opponents side of the field.

He actually had more YAC in 2005 than in 2004, even though he had 300 fewer actual recieving yards.

But fk me for actually using EVIDENCE to show that his TDs were down due to the QB throwing ducks, and where the ducks were launched from.

He still led the league in YPC.

The only verbage emerging from of an anus comes from of the Lelie apologist camp. Lelie has 1 red zone TD in two years, while the likes of Kyle Johnson have produced more red zone TDs. That has nothing to do with the QB and everything to do with Lelie being a one dimensional WR. Funny how it's Jake's fault that Lelie isn't a superstar, but, yet, Rod managed to catch 86 passes last year.

The QB throwing ducks, huh? Then, he is going to the worst team imaginable, because Vick was dead last among starters in the league with only 12 completions of 25 yards or more. That's right...worse than even Jake Plummer. Maybe one day Lelie will luck out and wind up on one of the dozens of teams who have QBs that throw a perfect deep ball every time ::)

[Mediator12]

Fontaine, you are talking out of your ass. Perhaps you should actually review the tape, and you'd see that Ashley should have had 5 TDs, but Jake underthrew him so many times. How do you think he got 7 TDs in 2004, because Jake was hitting him IN the endzone.

That says Ashley is beating the defender, and then making the catch, with no YAC.

In fact, every one of his TDs came on plays started on the opponents side of the field.

He actually had more YAC in 2005 than in 2004, even though he had 300 fewer actual recieving yards.

But fk me for actually using EVIDENCE to show that his TDs were down due to the QB throwing ducks, and where the ducks were launched from.

He still led the league in YPC.

Or, you could check the game tape and see when Lelie broke off routes when he should not have or made the incorrect deep reads where Plummer threw the ball? Factor in that Jake had to scramble when Lelie could not get off press coverage and threw the timing off of most of those deep balls. All of those throws were not Plummers fault, just like not all were Lelie's. One thing is for certain, together they were inefficient on deep balls in 2005.

As for Beating his defender, that is certainly debatable. Most of those catches were thrown into decent coverage. That is Lelie's strength. Tracking down deep balls without getting touched.

[freak6]

Lelie has 1 red zone TD in two years, while the likes of Kyle Johnson have produced more red zone TDs.

Good comparison, a FB catching passes on designed play action passes where he is the primary reciever in a goalline offense...Brilliant.

The QB throwing ducks, huh? Then, he is going to the worst team imaginable, because Vick was dead last among starters in the league with only 12 completions of 25 yards or more. That's right...worse than even Jake Plummer. Maybe one day Lelie will luck out and wind up on one of the dozens of teams who have QBs that throw a perfect deep ball every time ::)

I never said the Falcons is good fit for him. I just think he's the best WR in Atlanta, so I agree with you on that. As far as throwing a perfect deep ball every time, how about just 20% of the time.

[freak6]

Or, you could check the game tape and see when Lelie broke off routes when he should not have or made the incorrect deep reads where Plummer threw the ball?

LMFAO!!! Now the WR has to read the QB??? That makes sense!!! Maybe you are referencing the throw Jake made vs the Fins in game 1? I don't know, that was a busted play though.

Factor in that Jake had to scramble when Lelie could not get off press coverage and threw the timing off of most of those deep balls.

Any recievers timing is messed up by press coverage, it's something every team deals with. Jake's ability to throw on the run is one of his best strengths according to some guy named Mike.

As for Beating his defender, that is certainly debatable. Most of those catches were thrown into decent coverage. That is Lelie's strength. Tracking down deep balls without getting touched.

What year are you talking about? 2004 or 2005.

Bottomline

Ashley had 7 TDs in 2004 because Jake was throwing deep to him on the opponents side of the field. In 2005 Jake threw deep to Ashley, but his catches did not result in TDs due to poorly thrown balls.

Also, Jake Plummers pass attempts were considerably reduced in 2005 resulting in less turnovers, and more wins. Less passes = less balls to Lelie = less catches = less TDs

[BroncoInferno]

Good comparison, a FB catching passes on designed play action passes where he is the primary reciever in a goalline offense...Brilliant.

Has it occured to you that if Lelie had demonstrated an ability to play physical and get open in the redzone, Shanny might have designed plays to go his way rather than the FB and tackle eligible players? We can chicken-and-egg this thing to death; the season will tell the tale. I think with more physical targets (Walker, Marshall, Scheffler) we'll get more production out of the receivers in the red zone.

I never said the Falcons is good fit for him. I just think he's the best WR in Atlanta, so I agree with you on that.

Agreed, though keep in mind that Jenkins is only entering his 3rd year, White his 2nd. That is when WRs generally start to emerge, so, while he looks better on a quick perusal of the stats, those two guys are young and may prove better over the long haul. We'll see.

As far as throwing a perfect deep ball every time, how about just 20% of the time.

C'mon, man...Lelie wasn't throwing passes to himself when he lead the league in YPC the last two seasons. Plummer certainly does not have a great deep ball, but it is not as bad as some of you make it seem. I mean, how many QBs do you think there are who can hit a WR perfectly in stride 30 yards down the field every time? Not any, really; three or four do it with what I'd consider exceptional accuracy (Palmer throws perhaps the best deep ball I've ever seen).

[freak6]

in the AFC Championship game, who had that TD catch, in traffic, running that post route, on a ball thrown up for grabs?

[Mediator12]

Pshhh...Lelie can adjust to poorly thrown deep balls.;D

I don't know...I just like the dynamic of Vick-to-Lelie. He'll be back there running all over the place, then he just looks up and guns it downfield in a Vick "dump off." We'll see.

Hey, I read that Atlanta isn't interested in re-signing him as of right now. Any interest?:rofl:

Please, do not tell me you have jumped on the Vick can pass Kool Aid Bandwagon LOL

Vick has NEVER had more than 2900+ passing yards in a season. In the Three years of starting 15 games he averaged 2553 yards. He routinely misses on his deep balls by A MILE.

As for the Running around and dumping off argument, watch Plummer do the same thing last year. Only difference is that plummer was only off by one zip code, Vick is off by a state ;D

[BroncoInferno]

in the AFC Championship game, who had that TD catch, in traffic, running that post route, on a ball thrown up for grabs?

Anecdotal evidence such as what you provide above is the worst kind. An isolated play here and there proves nothing. I can prove Freddie Mitchell is a great WR using that standard.

[freak6]

Has it occured to you that if Lelie had demonstrated an ability to play physical and get open in the redzone, Shanny might have designed plays to go his way rather than the FB and tackle eligible players?


You mean like that fade we threw to Ashley on 4th and goal vs the Patriots in the divisional playoff game? That's confidence in your WR goalline isnt it?

Plummer certainly does not have a great deep ball, but it is not as bad as some of you make it seem.

Watching that Lelie highlight tape on youtube, there were 5 ducks that Lelie had to slow up if not stop for. Jake had a terrible year on deep passes last season, and what i am contending is that they did not result in TDs for Lelie because they were thrown from our side of the field.

Our big plays in the passing game are predicated on play action. That gets the safety up, creating one on one mismatches with Lelie, and he was open consistently. Jake missed him. It's NOT the WRs fault.

[freak6]

Anecdotal evidence such as what you provide above is the worst kind. An isolated play here and there proves nothing. I can prove Freddie Mitchell is a great WR using that standard.

I disagree. Here is the most important game of the season. Ashley runs a post, and Jake lofts it up there, Ashley makes a great TOUCHDOWN catch in traffic, over the middle.

I think alot of the bickering about Lelie is due to his routes being go routes so often to open up the middle for our TEs. I wish he was used on more deep in routes. On slants he made some great stabs. He almost never dropped a ball, even if it was remotely catchable.

I can understand his frustration with Jake and the offense. But he should have come in and beat out Javon Walker straight up. He acted like a btch and got treated like one. I hope he does well in Atl. Vick will be happy to have him bail him out.

[Mediator12]

LMFAO!!! Now the WR has to read the QB??? That makes sense!!! Maybe you are referencing the throw Jake made vs the Fins in game 1? I don't know, that was a busted play though.

Uh, no. It's called route adjustments and reading the COVERAGE. You are not helping yourself out if you do not know what those are.

Any recievers timing is messed up by press coverage, it's something every team deals with. Jake's ability to throw on the run is one of his best strengths according to some guy named Mike.

Yes, Press coverage hinders pass routes. However, Lelie would get so far off the route from the Press that he was NOT where he should have been. It also caused Plummer to throw later than the play was designed and Lelie used his excellent speed to recover.

What year are you talking about? 2004 or 2005.

Both

Bottomline

Ashley had 7 TDs in 2004 because Jake was throwing deep to him on the opponents side of the field. In 2005 Jake threw deep to Ashley, but his catches did not result in TDs due to poorly thrown balls.

Also, Jake Plummers pass attempts were considerably reduced in 2005 resulting in less turnovers, and more wins. Less passes = less balls to Lelie = less catches = less TDs

Lelie had 13 less balls thrown his way in 2005 than from 2004. Please tell me you are not asking me to believe that 13 less throws = 6 less TD's?

[Taco John]

Plummer certainly does not have a great deep ball, but it is not as bad as some of you make it seem.



Bad enough that Shanahan drafted a replacement. I think Lelie had his share of problems, but if Plummer was all that and a bag of chips, we wouldn't have accidentally moved up the draft board to get someone who *can* make the throws.

[Mile High Shack]

Bad enough that Shanahan drafted a replacement. I think Lelie had his share of problems, but if Plummer was all that and a bag of chips, we wouldn't have accidentally moved up the draft board to get someone who *can* make the throws.

ummm based on how Cutler has looked, why WOULDN'T you give up the little we did to get him, regardless of who we had?

Unless it was like Elway in his prime that we already had.

[BroncoInferno]

Bad enough that Shanahan drafted a replacement. I think Lelie had his share of problems, but if Plummer was all that and a bag of chips, we wouldn't have accidentally moved up the draft board to get someone who *can* make the throws.

We went after Cutler because of Cutler, not because of Plummer. It was a specific player who has the potential to be an elite player. If you don't already have an elite QB (we agree Jake is not one), then you make the move.

[Taco John]

ummm based on how Cutler has looked, why WOULDN'T you give up the little we did to get him, regardless of who we had?

Unless it was like Elway in his prime that we already had.



Well, according to the people who were against the move, because we needed to address team needs, and quarterback wasn't a team need.

Of course, though, quarterback is a team need given the way Plummer has handled the pressure in the playoffs.

Lelie sure isn't a number one WR, but none of Plummers interceptions in any single playoff game we have had can be blamed on Lelie.

[Taco John]

We went after Cutler because of Cutler, not because of Plummer.


Keep repeating it. Eventually someone is bound to believe you.

The bottom line is that Jake hasn't shown that he can handle this offense in the post season, and Shanahan had to make a move to protect the team.

[Mediator12]

You mean like that fade we threw to Ashley on 4th and goal vs the Patriots in the divisional playoff game? That's confidence in your WR goalline isnt it?



Watching that Lelie highlight tape on youtube, there were 5 ducks that Lelie had to slow up if not stop for. Jake had a terrible year on deep passes last season, and what i am contending is that they did not result in TDs for Lelie because they were thrown from our side of the field.

Our big plays in the passing game are predicated on play action. That gets the safety up, creating one on one mismatches with Lelie, and he was open consistently. Jake missed him. It's NOT the WRs fault.

I have also made the argument that Plummer missed Lelie deep as well and he "could have" scored more TD's because of it. What you fail to grasp is that there were nine or ten other plays that Lelie could have made if he ran the correct option for the coverage or did not give up on the route.

There is no question that Plummer could have been more accurate on six of those deep throws last year. What about the missed opportunities that Lelie created for himself? Or, the fact that lelie has Caught ONE Fade pattern in the red Zone in four seasons. Or, that he has ZERO Slants for TD's in four years. Or, that he has 2 fewer third down conversion passes in four years than Walker did in 2004 alone?

[Sassy]

Keep repeating it. Eventually someone is bound to believe you.

The bottom line is that Jake hasn't shown that he can handle this offense in the post season, and Shanahan had to make a move to protect the team.
We've had to get to the Post Season first...and Jake isn't going to get there by himself...It's a team effort. They handled it during the Pats game...and I think, more than anything, that this team took the SB berth for granted (especially with the Colts/Pats out of it and a home championship game) ...and by the time Pitt was up by a ton of points...it was too late.

[BroncoInferno]

Keep repeating it. Eventually someone is bound to believe you.

The bottom line is that Jake hasn't shown that he can handle this offense in the post season, and Shanahan had to make a move to protect the team.

So, let me ask...do you think we were so desperate to replace Plummer that we would have made this type of move for just any prospect projected to go in the first round. Let's just say for the sake of argument that it's Mark Richards is who is available at 15 and not Cutler. I don't think we trade the 3rd to get into position to take him. Hell, I don't think we even take him at 15. Why? Because he not a truly elite prospect on the level of Plummer. It had to do with the player, not Plummer, and if you think differently then you have learned much about how Shanny operates.

[Taco John]

We've had to get to the Post Season first...and Jake isn't going to get there by himself...It's a team effort. They handled it during the Pats game...and I think, more than anything, that this team took the SB berth for granted (especially with the Colts/Pats out of it and a home championship game) ...and by the time Pitt was up by a ton of points...it was too late.



I absolutely agree with all of that. Plummer handled himself really well last year leading up to the playoffs. But even in the Pats game he needed to be bailed out from a boneheaded pick.

I'm not asking for a whole lot from the guy. I just want to see him play a postseason game without throwing a pick. Even if we lose that game, I'll be happy to see Jake has finally made it through without making some dumb mental error that cost us.

[Taco John]

So, let me ask...do you think we were so desperate to replace Plummer that we would have made this type of move for just any prospect projected to go in the first round.

I believe we were targeting Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler. I don't think we'd have been interested in Vince Young due to his wonderlick score and the value that Shanahan places on smart quarterbacks.


Let's just say for the sake of argument that it's Mark Richards is who is available at 15 and not Cutler. I don't think we trade the 3rd to get into position to take him. Hell, I don't think we even take him at 15. Why? Because he not a truly elite prospect on the level of Plummer. It had to do with the player, not Plummer, and if you think differently then you have learned much about how Shanny operates.

Hello captain obvious. Of course we're not going to start moving up the draft boards the year before to reach for a lesser talent. What exactly is your point here?

[Clockwork Orange]

Gee, another topic morphed into a Jake Plummer thread by the usual suspects. How unexpected. ::)

[BroncoInferno]

I believe we were targeting Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler. I don't think we'd have been interested in Vince Young due to his wonderlick score and the value that Shanahan places on smart quarterbacks.

I have too much respect for Shanny to think he would have traded up for an overhyped 3rd round caliber prospect (Knee-Brace Man, aka Hollywood Matt).

Hello captain obvious. Of course we're not going to start moving up the draft boards the year before to reach for a lesser talent. What exactly is your point here?

You are making it sound like Shanny was desperate to replace Plummer. My argument is that it had little to do with Plummer, and everything to do with Cutler being a special prospect. I used Richards as an example because he was a projected top 10 pick who slid down draft boards, but who wasn't a Cutler type prospect.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I absolutely agree with all of that. Plummer handled himself really well last year leading up to the playoffs. But even in the Pats game he needed to be bailed out from a boneheaded pick.

I'm not asking for a whole lot from the guy. I just want to see him play a postseason game without throwing a pick. Even if we lose that game, I'll be happy to see Jake has finally made it through without making some dumb mental error that cost us.


This is gooberiffic.

Tom Brady, possibly the most "clutch" player of this generation, blew the Patriots' chances with a decision to throw at Champ. Poor decision. Bad pick. Season over.

Your idea of Jake has always been a cycle of self-fulfilling prophecy. "Jake's gonna do bad. YEP! He did bad! Looky there, Jake sucks!"

Would you like Manning? Did he not choke against Pitt with some timely boneheaded mistakes?

You have a selective memory with Plummer.

[Taco John]

I have too much respect for Shanny to think he would have traded up for an overhyped 3rd round caliber prospect (Knee-Brace Man, aka Hollywood Matt).


I'm not accusing you of having any sense of reality here. I'm not sure what your respect for Shanahan has anything to do with his interest in one of the top two quarterbacks of this draft.



You are making it sound like Shanny was desperate to replace Plummer.

Desperate? I don't know that desperate is the word that I'd use. That's a little strong. I think I'd use a word like "eager."



My argument is that it had little to do with Plummer, and everything to do with Cutler being a special prospect. I used Richards as an example because he was a projected top 10 pick who slid down draft boards, but who wasn't a Cutler type prospect.


Yeah, you and a bunch of others are welcome to hold your illusions that the drafting of Cutler was just a happenstance of opportunity, and that Shanahan wasn't motivated by the fact that Plummer threw almost half as many interceptions in two games of the post season last year as he did all season... Or that he threw 7 interceptions in the four final games of the season the year before. Or that in four post season appearances, he's thrown 6 interceptions. But the reality is, Shanahan doesn't tolerate turnovers for very long, no matter who you are, or what your record is.

We can pine all day long about how Lelie is his own worst enemy, and I'll agree. But getting rid of the guy doesn't solve any problems on this team. Not even one.

[watermock]

Taco, take care of the Sonora. We all know Jake had a bad game against the eventual SB champions. We were down 21-0 before we blinked.

Lay off Jake, he's trying and is on an egg timer till Rocket Man takes over anyway. We aren't going to pay him 7 million to be a backup. We throw him in next year or 08 and pick up a 3rd or 4th and go on with the young guns. Stop fussing. The universe is unfolding as it should. (except for this damn war) ugg. It weighs on me...(Khan)

[watermock]

Gee, another topic morphed into a Jake Plummer thread by the usual suspects. How unexpected. ::)

How did a Lelie accepts being a 3rd option turn into a Jake sucks thread by the administrator without any prompting?

[Taco John]

Gee, another topic morphed into a Jake Plummer thread by the usual suspects. How unexpected. ::)



Eh... I call it balance... On the left, you have the "Everything was Plummer's fault" guys. On the right, you have the "Everything was Lelie's fault" folk.

Right here in the center the reality is that they both have their issues, and losing Lelie doesn't do anything to solve any problems that we had last year with our offense, particularly when it comes to the turnover aspect that we've overwhelmingly demonstrated in the playoffs three years running .

[watermock]

That's why Cutler was drafted!! Sheesh. I haven't ever heard you pleased about that. Your all out of sorts.

This thread wasn't about Plummer at all.

[BroncoInferno]

Yeah, you and a bunch of others are welcome to hold your illusions that the drafting of Cutler was just a happenstance of opportunity, and that Shanahan wasn't motivated by the fact that Plummer threw almost half as many interceptions in two games of the post season last year as he did all season... Or that he threw 7 interceptions in the four final games of the season the year before. Or that in four post season appearances, he's thrown 6 interceptions. But the reality is, Shanahan doesn't tolerate turnovers for very long, no matter who you are, or what your record is.

Funny, but Shanny axed the starting tailback, the primary recieving threat at TE, traded a 2nd for a guy with a busted knee, and used 6 of 7 draft picks on offense. Looks to me like he wasn't too enamored with Jake's supporting cast, either. I mean, if it were all Plummer's fault, he would have just drafted Cutler and called it a day. Offensive problems solved! But, this is reality, not Taco's dream world where it is solely the responsibility of the QB (well, any QB not named Brian Griese) to generate offense.

[BroncoInferno]

Eh... I call it balance... On the left, you have the "Everything was Plummer's fault" guys. On the right, you have the "Everything was Lelie's fault" folk.

Right here in the center the reality is that they both have their issues, and losing Lelie doesn't do anything to solve any problems that we had last year with our offense, particularly when it comes to the turnover aspect that we've overwhelmingly demonstrated in the playoffs three years running .

You've been in this camp since your ridiculous thread blaming Plummer for playoff loss to Indy, and your posturing to the contrary isn't fooling anyone.

[Garcia Bronco]

"...And the Broncos select Ashley Lelie"


:garcia:

[Taco John]

Funny, but Shanny axed the starting tailback, the primary recieving threat at TE, traded a 2nd for a guy with a busted knee, and used 6 of 7 draft picks on offense. Looks to me like he wasn't too enamored with Jake's supporting cast, either. I mean, if it were all Plummer's fault, he would have just drafted Cutler and called it a day. Offensive problems solved! But, this is reality, not Taco's dream world where it is solely the responsibility of the QB (well, any QB not named Brian Griese) to generate offense.


*shrug* I can't help what arguments you ascribe to me. I've never said that there weren't offensive problems across the board. In fact, it has been my argument that the offense is more has been just as much, and maybe even more of a problem than the defense. Yes, the defense has had it's share of problems, but when you take away the points scored on them thanks to turnovers in enemy territory, you get a much different picture of them.

You're right that Shanahan has changed Jake's supporting cast. He's taken away just about every excuse that Jake can use.

It's Superbowl or bust time.

[epicSocialism4tw]

We can pine all day long about how Lelie is his own worst enemy, and I'll agree. But getting rid of the guy doesn't solve any problems on this team. Not even one.

"Getting rid of him" solves nothing, but essentially replacing him with Javon Walker solves alot.

[Taco John]

You've been in this camp since your ridiculous thread blaming Plummer for playoff loss to Indy, and your posturing to the contrary isn't fooling anyone.



Oh, I definitely think his ineptness in the post season has been a chief reason we've lost every bid we've had. But that has nothing to do with the discussion of which comes first, Lelie sucking or Plummer sucking.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I find it funny that WR went from a position of weakness to a position strength simply by replacing the #2 WR with a complete player, and using draft picks to fill in the gaps.

[watermock]

"...And the Broncos select Ashley Lelie"


:garcia:

I gotta hand it to ya Garcia...you were right all along.

[Clockwork Orange]

Eh... I call it balance... On the left, you have the "Everything was Plummer's fault" guys. On the right, you have the "Everything was Lelie's fault" folk.

Right here in the center the reality is that they both have their issues, and losing Lelie doesn't do anything to solve any problems that we had last year with our offense, particularly when it comes to the turnover aspect that we've overwhelmingly demonstrated in the playoffs three years running .

You're delusional if you consider your stance to be "the center." You're on the far left (using your example) in anything Jake Plummer related.

[watermock]

Oh, I definitely think his ineptness in the post season has been a chief reason we've lost every bid we've had. But that has nothing to do with the discussion of which comes first, Lelie sucking or Plummer sucking.

You keep ignoring the fact our defense laid down all three times despite constant high drafting.

All three playoff game the defense has totaly LAID DOWN. Indy scored TD's 5 times in a row. Pitt did 3 times in a row.

That is Plummer's fault? I'm not defending Plummer, he's choked in big games, but he wasn't given much of a cushion to work with either. More like barbells.

Elway could shake them off, hopefully Cutler can too. I just don't understand your angst. Jake is running at a 137.5 clip and Rocket Man at 111 so far. Why aren't you happy and why is this thread morphed into Jake?

Every playoff game he's gone into halftime way behind.

Look...Indy scored TD's FIVE TIMES IN A ROW AGAINST OUR DEFENSE. Godzilla couldn't erase that yet alone Elway.

Pitt scored TD's THREE TIMES IN A ROW WITH A GREAT DEFENSE. before Jake had a FORCED FUMBLE.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I find it funny that WR went from a position of weakness to a position strength simply by replacing the #2 WR with a complete player, and using draft picks to fill in the gaps.

Mr. skeptic says lets play a couple of games before we declare all of the problems solved. Two months ago lots of folk thought Corey Jackson was going to solve the pass rush woes and Duke was a sure fire all pro TE.

[Taco John]

You're delusional if you consider your stance to be "the center." You're on the far left (using your example) in anything Jake Plummer related.


I don't know what's more center than "they both have their problems, and one can't be blamed over the other for any of them." I'm not too interested in debating whether there is a more center ground to find on the Lelie vs. Plummer debate.

I'm definitely on the "Jake has thrown some boneheaded interceptions in every postseason game we've had costing us games and forcing Shanahan to jockey his way up the draft board to snag an eventual replacement" side, but only because it's the right side. Not out of spite.

What can I say. I lost faith in the guy. To win it back, all he has to do is make it through a playoff game without committing an interception. Are you telling me that this is too much for me to ask?

[epicSocialism4tw]

You keep ignoring the fact our defense laid down all three times despite constant high drafting.

All three playoff game the defense has totaly LAID DOWN. Indy scored TD's 5 times in a row. Pitt did 3 times in a row.

That is Plummer's fault? I'm not defending Plummer, he's choked in big games, but he wasn't given much of a cushion to work with either. More like barbells.

Elway could shake them off, hopefully Cutler can too. I just don't understand your angst. Jake is running at a 137.5 clip and Rocket Man at 111 so far. Why aren't you happy and why is this thread morphed into Jake?

Every playoff game he's gone into halftime way behind.

Look...Indy scored TD's FIVE TIMES IN A ROW AGAINST OUR DEFENSE. Godzilla couldn't erase that yet alone Elway.

Pitt scored TD's THREE TIMES IN A ROW WITH A GREAT DEFENSE. before Jake had a FORCED FUMBLE.

I was so excited going into those Idy games. Our defense looked good. Until...Manning destroyed our secondary like they werent even there, but yes...Taco is right. That was all Plummer's fault.

[watermock]

Also, as noted, if it was all Jake, why did we do an emergency transfusion with 9 new players on offense? We got Rocket Man, Walker, Scheff, Mike Bell, Marshall, Hixon, Kuper, Cobbs, Kircus. Make that 10 with Nash. 11 if Mustard can cut it.

That would be literally half the offense when you take into account special teams players.

We basically left Coyer to fend for himself this year.

[Lidderer]

Atlanta is the ONLY team to have never had back-to-back winning seasons in their history. This is a sterling example as to why.

[Taco John]

You keep ignoring the fact our defense laid down all three times despite constant high drafting.

All three playoff game the defense has totaly LAID DOWN. Indy scored TD's 5 times in a row. Pitt did 3 times in a row.

That is Plummer's fault? I'm not defending Plummer, he's choked in big games, but he wasn't given much of a cushion to work with either. More like barbells.

Elway could shake them off, hopefully Cutler can too. I just don't understand your angst. Jake is running at a 137.5 clip and Rocket Man at 111 so far. Why aren't you happy and why is this thread morphed into Jake?

Every playoff game he's gone into halftime way behind.

Look...Indy scored TD's FIVE TIMES IN A ROW AGAINST OUR DEFENSE. Godzilla couldn't erase that yet alone Elway.

Pitt scored TD's THREE TIMES IN A ROW WITH A GREAT DEFENSE. before Jake had a FORCED FUMBLE.



The proven way to stop Indianapolis is to execute on offense and cool them down. The more you force Peyton Manning to (over)think on the sidelines, the better your chance to win. The Pittsburgh game got out of hand because our offense couldn't answer back, and kept sending our defense out. Even once our defense plugged the holes, we managed to throw more interceptions. Our defense certainly had problems, but nothing that couldn't have been solved by taking some time on the sidelines to analyze what is being done to them. Once they got a chance to do that at halftime, Pittsburgh was held ineffective.

[Orange_Beard]

Funny, but Shanny axed the starting tailback, the primary recieving threat at TE, traded a 2nd for a guy with a busted knee, and used 6 of 7 draft picks on offense. Looks to me like he wasn't too enamored with Jake's supporting cast, either. I mean, if it were all Plummer's fault, he would have just drafted Cutler and called it a day. Offensive problems solved! But, this is reality, not Taco's dream world where it is solely the responsibility of the QB (well, any QB not named Brian Griese) to generate offense.


Youth movement.
Of course they key of the 6 of 7 picks was the QB, the rest were picks to grow up around this guy.

[Taco John]

I was so excited going into those Idy games. Our defense looked good. Until...Manning destroyed our secondary like they werent even there, but yes...Taco is right. That was all Plummer's fault.



I've never once said "It's all Plummer's fault." I have said that I'd like to see what our team can do when our offense is executing the game plan. We haven't seen that yet in the post season, and I think the results might raise some eyebrows.

[Sassy]

You keep ignoring the fact our defense laid down all three times despite constant high drafting.

All three playoff game the defense has totaly LAID DOWN. Indy scored TD's 5 times in a row. Pitt did 3 times in a row.

That is Plummer's fault? I'm not defending Plummer, he's choked in big games, but he wasn't given much of a cushion to work with either. More like barbells.

Elway could shake them off, hopefully Cutler can too. I just don't understand your angst. Jake is running at a 137.5 clip and Rocket Man at 111 so far. Why aren't you happy and why is this thread morphed into Jake?

Every playoff game he's gone into halftime way behind.

Look...Indy scored TD's FIVE TIMES IN A ROW AGAINST OUR DEFENSE. Godzilla couldn't erase that yet alone Elway.

Pitt scored TD's THREE TIMES IN A ROW WITH A GREAT DEFENSE. before Jake had a FORCED FUMBLE.
Dang Mock...I was just going to bring up the "D"....:thumbsup:
Jake was one of the very few that had his heart still in the Pitt game by halftime...you play from that far behind...there might be a couple of mistakes.

[watermock]

Since we have strayed off topic, I think a few new players can help on D.

I really like what Veal did last game, Webster looks good off his bad knee, Lynch likes him, and you gotta love that Jack that Abdullah laid on VY that was an incredibly lucky bounce. That hit might of been a squad maker.

[Clockwork Orange]

What can I say. I lost faith in the guy. To win it back, all he has to do is make it through a playoff game without committing an interception. Are you telling me that this is too much for me to ask?

Is it too much to ask for you to make the rest of the team as accountable for their actions as you make Plummer for his? What's funny is that not only do you not make anyone else accountable, you look for ways to make their mistakes and deficiencies Plummer's fault as well.

I've never seen you criticize Lepsis & Foster for their ghastly performance in the AFC Championship game. Never have you held the defense accountable for giving up 41 & 49 points respectively in the trips to Indy.

So please, if you want to be a basher, be a basher. Just stop feigning objectivity on this subject when you're clearly incapable.

[Taco John]

Jake was one of the very few that had his heart still in the Pitt game by halftime...



Do people seriously believe this? Our entire team scrapped their way back into this game, and at one time I turned to Garcia and told him that I think we might pull it out. Ask him. I told him that. Then ask him what happened two plays later.

[BroncoInferno]

Is it too much to ask for you to make the rest of the team as accountable for their actions as you make Plummer for his? What's funny is that not only do you not make anyone else accountable, you look for ways to make their mistakes and deficiencies Plummer's fault as well.

I've never seen you criticize Lepsis & Foster for their ghastly performance in the AFC Championship game. Never have you held the defense accountable for giving up 41 & 49 points respectively in the trips to Indy.

So please, if you want to be a basher, be a basher. Just stop feigning objectivity on this subject when you're clearly incapable.

Amen.

[Lidderer]

The proven way to stop Indianapolis is to execute on offense and cool them down. The more you force Peyton Manning to (over)think on the sidelines, the better your chance to win. The Pittsburgh game got out of hand because our offense couldn't answer back, and kept sending our defense out. Even once our defense plugged the holes, we managed to throw more interceptions. Our defense certainly had problems, but nothing that couldn't have been solved by taking some time on the sidelines to analyze what is being done to them. Once they got a chance to do that at halftime, Pittsburgh was held ineffective.

Deja vu, my word.

Indy doesn't slow down at all regardless of what your O does. This is fact and was proven to you last year. The numbers(and recall you are talking about TIME here, which is a number, so don't bring out the "stats suck" mantra) show this and are there for anyone willing to take a few minutes with them.

I doubt that you honestly believe an NFL co-ordinator needed a longer drive from the O to determine just how dumb his 3rd and 5+ calls had been on D. Football's a pretty fast game, and while Coyer isn't as swift as that Texas Tech coach, surely he could think on his feet w/o the O getting another 1st down.

[Garcia Bronco]

Do people seriously believe this? Our entire team scrapped their way back into this game, and at one time I turned to Garcia and told him that I think we might pull it out. Ask him. I told him that. Then ask him what happened two plays later.


Int over the middle

[watermock]

The proven way to stop Indianapolis is to execute on offense and cool them down. The more you force Peyton Manning to (over)think on the sidelines, the better your chance to win. The Pittsburgh game got out of hand because our offense couldn't answer back, and kept sending our defense out. Even once our defense plugged the holes, we managed to throw more interceptions. Our defense certainly had problems, but nothing that couldn't have been solved by taking some time on the sidelines to analyze what is being done to them. Once they got a chance to do that at halftime, Pittsburgh was held ineffective.

There were TWO interceptions and a forced fumble. The game breaker was when we were down about 13 and could of pulled within 7 or something like that.

I don't really care what the offense did. The point is that we let pittsburg convert 21 of 26 first down conversions. That's a fact, and many were 3rd and long. DWill had to take himself out, and they ignored Champ completely. They tore Foxworth apart like a rotweiller on a kitten.

Of course they could of analized the problems at the half, and some got solved. That's when Jake made his big blunder, when we were driving to close the game within striking distance. The fact is he tried too hard, and threw a horrible read and game over.

Fact is, our defense has consistently put our offense in holes. It's not uncommon to have a defensive slugfest in a championship game. The fact is our defense has laid down as much as Jake. That's all I'm saying.

What I don't get taco, and I'll leave it here, is that we drafted a franchise QB because we all know that it was the right move. You know I never hated SOB like others here. Hell, he's got twice the rating of Grossman in Chicago. Not a great rating, but better than his 40 with the first string.

Next year we can go after a monster that can do more than say boo at the QB. That's where the real weakness of this team lies.

[epicSocialism4tw]

The proven way to stop Indianapolis is to execute on offense and cool them down. The more you force Peyton Manning to (over)think on the sidelines, the better your chance to win. The Pittsburgh game got out of hand because our offense couldn't answer back, and kept sending our defense out. Even once our defense plugged the holes, we managed to throw more interceptions. Our defense certainly had problems, but nothing that couldn't have been solved by taking some time on the sidelines to analyze what is being done to them. Once they got a chance to do that at halftime, Pittsburgh was held ineffective.

The proven way to stop Indianapolis is to keep them from scoring on every trip down the field.

Ironically, the Broncos only real offense in their first posession against Indy was a 21 yard throw from Jake to Lelie. After punting, Manning walzed down the field for 7. 9 plays, 76 yds, 3:43.

The Colts next drive was also a Manning clinic. Manning threw for 75 yards in an 8 play/87 yard drive. Here's the pivotal moment of the drive (from denverbroncos.com): " A costly penalty took the Colts out of a 3rd-and-6 and made it 3rd-and-1 when Reggie Hayward was called for a neutral zone infraction. The next play was a 31-yard completion to Dallas Clark to the Broncos 5. Two plays later, James found the end zone."

By the Broncos' third posession, they were down 14-0 on the road.

The rest is history.

[watermock]

I remember it perfectly. I went comotose because I had been up for 24 hours I was so excited. I woke up when the crowd did. Jake threw a horrible INT when he didn't have to force it. I think it was a first down play. Ever think it might of been a bad play call too and they caught a tendency? That's why I'm glad Dinger is here. Not that Kubiak won't make a bad coach in Houston, it was just time to break up some tendencies that Pittsburg obviously keyed on. It was so obvious I even knew what play was coming.

[Taco John]

Is it too much to ask for you to make the rest of the team as accountable for their actions as you make Plummer for his? What's funny is that not only do you not make anyone else accountable, you look for ways to make their mistakes and deficiencies Plummer's fault as well.

I've never seen you criticize Lepsis & Foster for their ghastly performance in the AFC Championship game. Never have you held the defense accountable for giving up 41 & 49 points respectively in the trips to Indy.

So please, if you want to be a basher, be a basher. Just stop feigning objectivity on this subject when you're clearly incapable.


Alright. How about you tell me which of the six interceptions that Jake has thrown in the four playoff games we've had is the fault of Lepsis or Foster?

I've already conceeded that Alexander is responsible for the first fumble, and that Foster responsible for the second. I'm not sure what more you want from me on that front.

And absolutely, I will doubt Plummer until he proves me wrong by making it through a playoff game without throwing a BONEHEADED interception. And be very clear: BONEHEADED is the operative word here. I'm not talking about stuff that can be reasonably blamed on other people. I'm talking about the "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT!" interceptions that he's thrown. The reality is, I'm only blaming Plummer problems on Plummer. We're losing the turnover battle in the postseason largely due to his brain farts.

So yeah, I feel that I am being objective, and I'm giving him his just desserts.

[Lidderer]

The proven way to stop Indianapolis is to keep them from scoring on every trip down the field.




Llama, I think you're being sort of facetious here, or at you're arguing the right side of the arguement, but is it REALLY 'proven' that this is an effective way to stop them?

I haven't been able to find any indication of this.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I've never once said "It's all Plummer's fault." I have said that I'd like to see what our team can do when our offense is executing the game plan. We haven't seen that yet in the post season, and I think the results might raise some eyebrows.

I agree with that. The run game hasnt executed anything in the playoffs since TD left.

[Taco John]

Fact is, our defense has consistently put our offense in holes.

Other way around.

Chicken and egg. But it's an argument that can't be proven until Jake gets through a playoff game without choking up an interception. Which is all I'm asking of him at this point.

[Orange_Beard]

Apparently TJ is not the only one who has seen a enough of Plummers "Big game" performances.

Shanny drafted Cutler, not TJ.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Llama, I think you're being sort of facetious here, or at you're arguing the right side of the arguement, but is it REALLY 'proven' that this is an effective way to stop them?

I haven't been able to find any indication of this.

Yes, I am being facetious. If there is any doubt in reading my posts, erring on the side of sarcasm usually puts you in the ballpark. :)

I think that stopping the Colts has alot to do with throwing Manning's reads off and getting into the backfield in unexpected situations.

[Taco John]

Apparently TJ is not the only one who has seen a enough of Plummers "Big game" performances.

Shanny drafted Cutler, not TJ.



Which is what started this debate... The idea that Shanahan went for Cutler only due to his awesome ability, and nothing to do with the fact that Plummer has choked in every last playoff game that he's played in for us.

*tag*

You're it. I've got to get some work done.

[Taco John]

I agree with that. The run game hasnt executed anything in the playoffs since TD left.


I agree with that. Now only if there was a way we could get them to stop stacking the box. Any ideas?

[Hulamau]

I still can't fathom the sheer stupidity of Lelie in this case.

In Denver he was assured that it would be the best WR starts scenario verified by the rise of rookie FA Mike Bell.

In Atlanta he's being told to STFU and take the number 3 job without an open fair competition.

In the process he's forked over $1million in fines etc.

That seems like a lot of money spent just to get jacked right in the nutsack by the Falcons.

What a dumba$$.


Mike Bell doesn't have Terrell Davis (AKA Rod Smith) in front of him either. No doubt Lelie handled this whole deal the wrong way and I'm sure he has a lot of regrets, but he wanted out and he got out.

However, to try and compare Mike Bell's rise up the chart as 'proof' that Lelie would have easily unseated Rod if only he had caught more balls and made more spectacular plays in camp (which he did, by the way, the last two years running) is ludicrious and totally overlooks the dynamic between Jake and Rod, as well as Rod's powerful place on the team as its #1 leader, and his still admirably consistent short-to-mid route running ability.

Mike Bell beat out two very questionable running backs and the jury is still out at that! Now do you honestly think if Terrell Davis (aka Rod Smith) was still here and still performing at a decent level that Mike Bell would have gotten the #1 job? If so I've got some wonderful land to sell you inside Mauna Loa's volcano!

To highlight that point, its interesting that Javon Walker for all his Ooohss and Ahhhs in camp is still #2 as well :-). When Rod retires, and or Cutler takes over, its up for grabs and Lelie was very shortsighted and foolish for not seeing that and at least playing out this year quietly and keeping his options open with Denver.

But he threw down the gauntlet before he knew anything of Cutler and what that might mean for the future direction of our offense and made an immature decisoon that cost him big time in money and reputation. However, if he plays well in Atlanta and is a good teammate as he probably will, be by this time next year this whole affair will be dust in the wind for anyone outside of Denver.

Lelie played ALL World in camp the past two years, clearly out performing Rod IN CAMP with his consistent hands and great catches, often beating Champ and the other DBs. But there was no way he was going to unseat Rod for the lions share of Jake's attention no matter what he did. In that respect, and in that respect only, Lelie was correct.

His major error was in not learning to make the best of the situation for one more year and then pick his best option.

With Atlanta, I'm sure he has no problem being #3 this year, particularly since he has a one year deal followed by FA which is what he really wanted. He'll have some opportunity to make a splash this season and re-establish himself as a hard worker as he was here all four years, and the Falcons will gladly offer him a deal with an open chance to compete for what ever position he can earn next year, speaking of which, neither Michael Jenkins nor Roddy White is anything like a team ICON or team leader in Atlanta, and I doubt either one can beat him out straight up. Either that, or Lelie may well explore the market as a FA next year to see what the best situation he can land is.

I'm just glad we got something really good in return that might turn out to be a true steal!

[epicSocialism4tw]

I agree with that. Now only if there was a way we could get them to stop stacking the box. Any ideas?


That would be great if the entire Broncos offense wasnt dependent on the success of the run game.

[Orange_Beard]

Not really sure I can take over on this one.....

This is what kills me, Shanny Drafts 6 of 7 of "O" players, this is done because Plummers has no weapons. OK. He replaces the weak links with draft choices.
The first player he took was a Cutler.
Was he looking to replace a weak link?

[Clockwork Orange]

Alright. How about you tell me which of the six interceptions that Jake has thrown in the four playoff games we've had is the fault of Lepsis or Foster?

I've already conceeded that Alexander is responsible for the first fumble, and that Foster responsible for the second. I'm not sure what more you want from me on that front.

And absolutely, I will doubt Plummer until he proves me wrong by making it through a playoff game without throwing a BONEHEADED interception. And be very clear: BONEHEADED is the operative word here. I'm not talking about stuff that can be reasonably blamed on other people. I'm talking about the "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT!" interceptions that he's thrown. The reality is, I'm only blaming Plummer problems on Plummer. We're losing the turnover battle in the postseason largely due to his brain farts.

So yeah, I feel that I am being objective, and I'm giving him his just desserts.

If you've got it in your head that you're objective on this subject, then there's no way I'm talking you down from it. Believe what you will. Going by the multitudes of posts I've read, you're really just a more articulate version of Broncosoda or Broncosoja or whatever his name is. You both hate Plummer, you're just more subtle in the way you express it.

Whatever. We've been down this road before. He'll be gone soon and you'll have to find someone else to whine endlessly about.

[Clockwork Orange]

Lelie played ALL World in camp the past two years, clearly out performing Rod IN CAMP with his consistent hands and great catches, often beating Champ and the other DBs. But there was no way he was going to unseat Rod for the lions share of Jake's attention no matter what he did. In that respect, and in that respect only, Lelie was correct.

Everybody roll up your pantlegs, the bull****'s getting deep.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Taco, your position on Jake is as unwittingly flagrant as an undone fly sans underwear.

Your stuff is showing.

[Taco John]

If you've got it in your head that you're objective on this subject, then there's no way I'm talking you down from it. Believe what you will. Going by the multitudes of posts I've read, you're really just a more articulate version of Broncosoda or Broncosoja or whatever his name is. You both hate Plummer, you're just more subtle in the way you express it.

Whatever. We've been down this road before. He'll be gone soon and you'll have to find someone else to whine endlessly about.



*shrug*

The problem that people have with my arguments against Plummer is that they can't really argue against them. They can only stretch my arguments to mean that I *ONLY* blame Plummer, or divert them to be the fault of someone else and then accuse me of ignoring that aspect. What people can't do is argue against the fact that every single one of Jake's 6 interceptions in 4 playoff games was due to his own boneheaded blundering. Maybe if I used nicer words than "boneheaded blundering" to describe his game-fatal errors I'd get the benefit of a doubt. Or maybe I don't care whether I get the benefit of a doubt or not and all I really want is to see Jake make it through a postseason contest without committing one...

Like I've said all along.

[55CrushEm]

Alright. How about you tell me which of the six interceptions that Jake has thrown in the four playoff games we've had is the fault of Lepsis or Foster?

I've already conceeded that Alexander is responsible for the first fumble, and that Foster responsible for the second. I'm not sure what more you want from me on that front.

And absolutely, I will doubt Plummer until he proves me wrong by making it through a playoff game without throwing a BONEHEADED interception. And be very clear: BONEHEADED is the operative word here. I'm not talking about stuff that can be reasonably blamed on other people. I'm talking about the "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT!" interceptions that he's thrown. The reality is, I'm only blaming Plummer problems on Plummer. We're losing the turnover battle in the postseason largely due to his brain farts.

So yeah, I feel that I am being objective, and I'm giving him his just desserts.

Well speaking of int's in a playoff game.....how bout the one that Elway threw in the 1991 AFC title game vs. Buffalo that was returned for a TD....and we lose 10-7. Our defense was FANTASTIC that game. We held the mighty Buffalo offense to THREE points.

Anyway, Elway blew that game, and he sucks....I can't believe he even made the Hall of Fame. ;D

[Taco John]

Taco, your position on Jake is as unwittingly flagrant as an undone fly sans underwear.

Your stuff is showing.


My position that he needs to prove his post season ability by making it through a playoff game without throwing an interception is what now?

[baja]

So, let me ask...do you think we were so desperate to replace Plummer that we would have made this type of move for just any prospect projected to go in the first round. Let's just say for the sake of argument that it's Mark Richards is who is available at 15 and not Cutler. I don't think we trade the 3rd to get into position to take him. Hell, I don't think we even take him at 15. Why? Because he not a truly elite prospect on the level of Plummer. It had to do with the player, not Plummer, and if you think differently then you have learned much about how Shanny operates.

I think it is some of both.

The quality of jay Cutler and the missing pieces of Plummer's game.

[Clockwork Orange]

My position that he needs to prove his post season ability by making it through a playoff game without throwing an interception is what now?

So, in the interest of consistancy, did you rip Elway just as hard for his postseason interceptions? In case you forgot, he threw a few in his day. Were you one of the ones who labelled Elway a choker and blamed him for the Super Bowl losses?

No need to even answer that, of course you didn't. But then Elway didn't replace the guy who you spent so much time defending and deflecting blame from, now did he?

[Hulamau]

Everybody roll up your pantlegs, the bull****'s getting deep.

Go back and look at the archives from thet last two camps CO and listen to Shannys camp assessments from last year. Kaylore and others often remarked how sharp he looked catching everything in sight (other than the first day or two of camp last year when Kaylore said he looked bored).

Shanahan said Lelie was catching everything and having his best camp.

I'm not suggesting in any way that Ash should have gotten Rods place, Rod earned his position and the trust of Jake over time through his long term consistency and leadership.

But from Lelies point of view, it was a no win situation for him, particularly going into his contract year, as long as he was behind Rod with Jake throwing the ball with the limiations they placed on JAke last year to keep his INTs in check.

I haven't yet heard from Lelie's own mouth that he has ever 'blamed' Rod, Jake or Shanahan for any of this. He didnt even ask for the #1 spot here as so many completely miss here, he said all along the situation is just not a good fit for him straight up and he wanted out while he still had time to prove it ... period. I understand his sentiment, but it doesnt excuse his impatience, shortsightedness and unwillingness to honor his last contract year at all.

Its no one s FAULT that it was a bad fit .. it happens all the time! A guy struggles on one team and excells on another. I'm just really pleased we get to find out now which was it. Is Lelie really the total bust you and a few others so fervently believe and hope, or can he carve out a decent career on another team ... maybe even become a true star ..,. and I suspect it will really chap a few peoples ass around here if he does!

On the other hand, maybe you are right and he is just a one trick pony and never amounts to anything above a decent #2, and I do think there is a possibly he is too immature to truly realize his talent (though this kind of experience has a way of making a person grow up fast).

I'm curious to find out too, but I suspect we wont start to get a real answer until next year when he has a chance to get more playing time.

[Lidderer]

Elway didn't have a playoff game without an INT until his 10th outing.

10 games without a non-INT performance in the playoffs.

Ten.

[baja]

TIME OUT!

I wonder if you guys know just how damn good our offense is going to be this year and into the foreseeable future...

[Taco John]

So, in the interest of consistancy, did you rip Elway just as hard for his postseason interceptions? In case you forgot, he threw a few in his day. Were you one of the ones who labelled Elway a choker and blamed him for the Super Bowl losses?

No need to even answer that, of course you didn't. But then Elway didn't replace the guy who you spent so much time defending and deflecting blame from, now did he?


Ah, worthless Elway posturing. As if Plummer even has a hint of Elway's talent and should thus be granted the same Elway exemptions that Elway himself enjoyed when it came to Elway's errors. I watched Elway every year he played. He grew up a hero of mine, and remains so to this day. You're absolutely right that I'm not going to give Plummer the kind of leeway that I gave Elway. And why should I?

As far as Plummer and Griese are concerned, you can believe what you want. I could care less if people want to believe that the only reason I diss Plummer is because he replaced Griese. It's another thing people can do to deflect from my arguments and "win" without having to say a word about Plummer's post-season performance. If that makes you feel good, I say go for it.

But keep this in mind: Plummer and I are both from the same state. The guy was a state treasure and everyone I knew was a Plummer fan, proud that an Idaho quarterback finally broke tthrough and made it as a starter at both the college level and the professional one. I was privledged enough to share the same football field with the guy one year when our High School hosted them in one of the most lopsided beat downs we ever experienced. Our entire team stood in awe of the guy because of his ability to scramble around and make a play. This ridiculous idea that I disliked Plummer from the outset because he was replacing Griese is nothing short of amusing to me and just confirms to me that anyone using the argument is literally out of gas and unwilling to face the reality of just what Plummer has done for us in the post season.

Anyone who doesn't believe that I was at one time on the Plummer bandwagon can do one of two things:

1) Check the "I'm going to go ahead and call it" thread where I predicted Plummer would lead us to the Superbowl and win it in memory of his good friend, Pat Tillman.

or

2) Ask -Slap- about the gametime chats that he and I had early during 2004 season where I had to talk him off the ledge on the guy.

Or don't... Doens't matter to me. Believe what you want, including that Plummer hasn't been a detriment to us in the playoffs. As for me, all I want is to see the guy make it through a post-season game without committing an interception. I'm not even asking him to win it all.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Elway didn't have a playoff game without an INT until his 10th outing.

10 games without a non-INT performance in the playoffs.

Ten.

Shhhhh...

Good QB's dont throw picks in the playoffs.

[Orange_Beard]

So you have seen Elway play, you have seem Plummer play.
Can you really compare the two?

God, Elway had soooo much talent, he could carry the team, lead a late drive, overcome an interception.
I see Plummer, well I just don't see it.

[freak6]

Elway played on a team where he was consistently asked to pull a rabbit out of his helmet and convert 3rd and 8s at the same time.

Shanny CUSTOMIZED the offense to suit Jake and make him a manager, and take more of the decision making away from him.

Obviously Jake blew it by throwing a absolutely terrible pass way short to a slow TE, and then tried to cram a fastball through 3 defenders to Rod.

Jake Plummer blew it vs the Steelers. There is no denying that fact, which is all Taco is trying to say.

As far as Lelie vs Plummer, the anti-Lelie crowd hates him for his selfishness so much they overlook the fact he made huge catches for us and won games for us. They point to his lack of TDs rather than the fact his big plays were not TDs due to poorly thrown balls.

I thought Jake had a pretty good year, but this is the deal with our offense.

Our big plays come off play action, and we need to convert those as we only take those deep shots maybe twice a game, if that. Jake was unable to do that last year, as Lelie had to slow up if not stop for balls.

Enter - Jay Cutler

Additionally, I predict you will see a dramatic shift in our offensive philosophy in 2007. Cutler will be given more 3 and 4 WR sets. We used to open the game up with 4 wide with John Elway in 1998. Where did that go?

[Taco John]

I think we've definitely lost sight of this thread and the things that we can agree on (even if we can't agree that Plummer has been a detriment to this team in the post season)... That's that Javon Walker is a better WR than Ashley Lelie and we're a better team right now because of the move.

[Clockwork Orange]

Ah, worthless Elway posturing. As if Plummer even has a hint of Elway's talent and should thus be granted the same Elway exemptions that Elway himself enjoyed when it came to Elway's errors. I watched Elway every year he played. He grew up a hero of mine, and remains so to this day. You're absolutely right that I'm not going to give Plummer the kind of leeway that I gave Elway. And why should I?

As far as Plummer and Griese are concerned, you can believe what you want. I could care less if people want to believe that the only reason I diss Plummer is because he replaced Griese. It's another thing people can do to deflect from my arguments and "win" without having to say a word about Plummer's post-season performance. If that makes you feel good, I say go for it.

But keep this in mind: Plummer and I are both from the same state. The guy was a state treasure and everyone I knew was a Plummer fan, proud that an Idaho quarterback finally broke tthrough and made it as a starter at both the college level and the professional one. I was privledged enough to share the same football field with the guy one year when our High School hosted them in one of the most lopsided beat downs we ever experienced. Our entire team stood in awe of the guy because of his ability to scramble around and make a play. This ridiculous idea that I disliked Plummer from the outset because he was replacing Griese is nothing short of amusing to me and just confirms to me that anyone using the argument is literally out of gas and unwilling to face the reality of just what Plummer has done for us in the post season.

Anyone who doesn't believe that I was at one time on the Plummer bandwagon can do one of two things:

1) Check the "I'm going to go ahead and call it" thread where I predicted Plummer would lead us to the Superbowl and win it in memory of his good friend, Pat Tillman.

or

2) Ask -Slap- about the gametime chats that he and I had during 2004 games where I had to talk him off the ledge on the guy.

Or don't... Doens't matter to me. Believe what you want, including that Plummer hasn't been a detriment to us in the playoffs. As for me, all I want is to see the guy make it through a post-season game without committing an interception. I'm not even asking him to win it all.

Congrats on that little job of side-stepping. I never compared Elway to Plummer, even though that's always been your weak, knee-jerk reaction to anyone bringing your blatant double standards to the table.

And thanks for proving my point that your standard for Plummer is much different than the ones you had for Elway and Griese. Elway got a free pass for his INT's in the playoffs and Griese got a free pass for, well, everything. You swung on SOBs knob despite the fact that he could never so much as get this team to the postseason. Oh yeah, just like the Lelie apologists, you blamed that on everyone else.

Whatever. You seem to be pretty comfortable with your hypocrisy, so go ahead and run with it.

[freak6]

That's that Javon Walker is a better WR than Ashley Lelie and we're a better team right now because of the move.

I'll believe it when I see him make a catch. I'm not sold on this guy AT ALL. I hear he looks great in camp etc... But I am real suspect of his knee. I heard he was seen limping vs the Titans.

[crowebomber]

But from Lelies point of view, it was a no win situation for him, particularly going into his contract year, as long as he was behind Rod with Jake throwing the ball with the limiations they placed on JAke last year to keep his INTs in check.

I guess I don't understand your definition of a "no win situation." We won 13 games last year and played in the AFC Championship. And statements like these from the Plummer-is-to-blame-for-Lelie's-woes camp just goes to show that same selfish mentality that caused Lelie to flush his career down the toilet.

Lelie got the ball as much as was needed. That's why we had the success we did last year. If he didn't realize that this was all working to get us in position to make a run at a Superbowl, then we don't need him on our team. If your roll is diminished but you are winning, the true team players will make the best out of their roll and enjoy playing for a winning team.

For everyone defending Lelie, go cheer for Atlanta. To me, he is just like Kennison: a selfish player who doesn't care about winning a championship, only about his own ego, income and stats.

The leading Falcon receiver caught 50 balls last year. I was just listening to the radio and Andrew Siciliano said "Atlanta is where receivers go to die." They're not going to change the playbook to open it up for Lelie. They'll let Vick improvise and dump it off to Crumpler and use the WRs sparingly.

You Ashley apologists can have him.

[Clockwork Orange]

I'll believe it when I see him make a catch. I'm not sold on this guy AT ALL. I hear he looks great in camp etc... But I am real suspect of his knee. I heard he was seen limping vs the Titans.

Yet you've got it in your head that Ashley Lelie is a superstar. :rofl:

[55CrushEm]

The leading Falcon receiver caught 50 balls last year. I was just listening to the radio and Andrew Siciliano said "Atlanta is where receivers go to die." They're not going to change the playbook to open it up for Lelie. They'll let Vick improvise and dump it off to Crumpler and use the WRs sparingly.

You Ashley apologists can have him.

LOL

[freak6]

If he didn't realize that this was all working to get us in position to make a run at a Superbowl, then we don't need him on our team. If your roll is diminished but you are winning, the true team players will make the best out of their roll and enjoy playing for a winning team. .

HALLEHLULAH!!!!!

For everyone defending Lelie, go cheer for Atlanta.

I'll cheer for him in Atlanta, I like watching Vick. If and when he gets in. He seriously fkd himself with this holdout. I think it's funny. I don't feel sorry for him at all. The reason I defend him is that I think people are going way overboard on the guy. That catch vs the Bills last year was sick. The one vs the Browns in 04. The guy makes fantastic plays, and with a crappy deep ball passer like Plummer, we're gonna miss the guy.

[Hulamau]

Elway played on a team where he was consistently asked to pull a rabbit out of his helmet and convert 3rd and 8s at the same time.

Shanny CUSTOMIZED the offense to suit Jake and make him a manager, and take more of the decision making away from him.

Obviously Jake blew it by throwing a absolutely terrible pass way short to a slow TE, and then tried to cram a fastball through 3 defenders to Rod.

Jake Plummer blew it vs the Steelers. There is no denying that fact, which is all Taco is trying to say.

As far as Lelie vs Plummer, the anti-Lelie crowd hates him for his selfishness so much they overlook the fact he made huge catches for us and won games for us. They point to his lack of TDs rather than the fact his big plays were not TDs due to poorly thrown balls.

I thought Jake had a pretty good year, but this is the deal with our offense.

Our big plays come off play action, and we need to convert those as we only take those deep shots maybe twice a game, if that. Jake was unable to do that last year, as Lelie had to slow up if not stop for balls.

Enter - Jay Cutler

Additionally, I predict you will see a dramatic shift in our offensive philosophy in 2007. Cutler will be given more 3 and 4 WR sets. We used to open the game up with 4 wide with John Elway in 1998. Where did that go?

That about sums it up!

PLummer is a really good QB and Id rather have him leading the team than all but about 5 to 7 others. Maybe even less when you factor in our system,

But a guy like Elway (& probably Cutler) can throw a pick trying to make something happen and then turn right around and more than recover from it, and he always give us a solid shot to rebound form a losing scoreboard in the second half. That is the one factor JAke has not yet shown. He's great now at running the ball control offense with rollouts and short passes to Rod and the TE with an occasion 20 to 30 yarder in there, and while playing with a lead.

He's also good enough to beat 95% of the teams out there, maybe more with the new additions this year, but I would feel a lot more confident to see him really come from behind say a 10 or 11 point deficit at half time and actually win the game more than once in a blue moon.

Its that 5% of the elite teams we have to cross over in the playoffs that inspired Shanny to draft Cutler while we had this golden opportunity, inspite of the fact that Jake is a really good field manager and a very likable guy.

[Taco John]

Congrats on that little job of side-stepping. I never compared Elway to Plummer, even though that's always been your weak, knee-jerk reaction to anyone bringing your blatant double standards to the table.

And thanks for proving my point that your standard for Plummer is much different than the ones you had for Elway and Griese. Elway got a free pass for his INT's in the playoffs and Griese got a free pass for, well, everything. You swung on SOBs knob despite the fact that he could never so much as get this team to the postseason. Oh yeah, just like the Lelie apologists, you blamed that on everyone else.

Whatever. You seem to be pretty comfortable with your hypocrisy, so go ahead and run with it.


Bah. There's no hypocrisy. Plummer doesn't deserve an "Elway exmption." He's not talented enough. And as far as Griese goes, I never thought the guy was anything more than an average talent mixed in a sea of average to below average talent. My argument was never that Griese was the end-all be-all. It was that he needed to compete for the job, and that we needed to actually put some talent around him instead of converting a back-up center into a starting left tackle. Griese had to deal with our 6th and 7th WRs starting games, and never had the talent around him that Plummer currently enjoys. Even still, my argument in favor of keeping Griese was that he would be more valuable to us as a back-up to Plummer than as dead money on the cap... money that we could have used to bring in a quality Defensive End.

But make no mistake, I *do* think that Griese was capable. I thought he proved as much when he had Tony Jones protecting his blind side and he threw 100 passes to each Rod Smith and Eddie McCaffrey. Say what you want about the guy, but he could have made a great back-up option for us for years to come. And hey, just to show I'm consistent, I'll make the same argument in favor of Plummer too.

[55CrushEm]

Its that 5% of the elite teams we have to cross over in the playoffs that inspired Shanny to draft Cutler while we had this golden opportunity, inspite of the fact that Jake is a really good field manager and a very likable guy.
Well said.....and proof that Shanny shoots for the Superbowl EVERY year.....he's not satisfied with just making the playoffs....out of his own mouth.

Drafting Cutler was NOT making the statement that Jake was not a good QB, rather as you say, PERHAPS just not quite good enough to get over that final 5%-hump.....

[Clockwork Orange]

Bah. There's no hypocrisy. Plummer doesn't deserve an "Elway exmption." He's not talented enough. And as far as Griese goes, I never thought the guy was anything more than an average talent mixed in a sea of average to below average talent. My argument was never that Griese was the end-all be-all. It was that he needed to compete for the job, and that we needed to actually put some talent around him instead of converting a back-up center into a starting left tackle. Griese had to deal with our 6th and 7th WRs starting games, and never had the talent around him that Plummer currently enjoys. Even still, my argument in favor of keeping Griese was that he would be more valuable to us as a back-up to Plummer than as dead money on the cap... money that we could have used to bring in a quality Defensive End.

But make no mistake, I *do* think that Griese was capable. I thought he proved as much when he had Tony Jones protecting his blind side and he threw 100 passes to each Rod Smith and Eddie McCaffrey. Say what you want about the guy, but he could have made a great back-up option for us for years to come. And hey, just to show I'm consistent, I'll make the same argument in favor of Plummer too.

Elway exemption? I see. Gotcha. Again, thanks for proving my point.

Weren't you once quoted as saying that Griese "made the QB position irrelevant?" Seems to me as though you certainly thought more of him than just an "average talent" at one point. Hindsight is awfully helpful in those situations.

Ah well, this discussion is going around in it's usual circles. So I'll just throw Plummer > Griese and be done with it.

[55CrushEm]

Plummer doesn't deserve an "Elway exmption." He's not talented enough.
Plummer is better than Elway EVER was.....;)

Seriously though.....Plummer, too, "carried" the Cardinals to a playoff appearance and victory....something that hadn't been done in over 40+ years at the time.

And the guy broke Elway's single season yardage mark.

Point is, the guy DOES have talent.....he's been getting better every year in the Broncos' system.

People just can't seem to let go of the "Cardinal Years".....one of the worst teams in NFL history. Tell you what, ANY QB would have had horrible stats had they been asked to steer THAT ship.....

Do you think Tom Brady would be Tom Brady as we know him, had he started his career with Arizona? Nope.....

[Taco John]

Elway exemption? I see. Gotcha. Again, thanks for proving my point.

Weren't you once quoted as saying that Griese "made the QB position irrelevant?" Seems to me as though you certainly thought more of him than just an "average talent" at one point. Hindsight is awfully helpful in those situations.

Ah well, this discussion is going around in it's usual circles. So I'll just throw Plummer > Griese and be done with it.



Actually, no. You've got it all wrong. I always recognized that Griese was a limited talent. He didn't have the strongest arm, and he was about as mobile as a fire hydrant. However, I did believe, based on his performances when he had a solid left tackle protecting his blind-side, and two great WRs as targets that he was capable of leading us to glory... Especially in that day, when guys like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer were winning Superbowls and "the QB position was practically an afterthought." In other words, I didn't believe we needed to have a great QB at the time to win a Superbowl. We just needed a game manager and the talent around him to make it happen.

The Griese and Plummer situations are so far removed from one another as to be laughable. The fact was, when Griese was here, we were losing veterans at an alarming clip and we didn't have very good answers to replace them, despite the yearly proclimations from Shanahan that "this is the best assembly of talent this team has had since I've been here."

But this idea that I thought Griese was a better quarterback than Jake Plummer is laughable. I never once said that to be the case, nor have I ever believed it. My argument was only in favor of keeping Griese an extra year and forcing the two to compete for the position, fully expecting that Jake would win out. This would allow us to delay the cap hit that cutting Griese would represent and save us from having the amount of dead money against us that we did for two years running. We could then use that money to address the talent around the quarterback position, especially on the offensive and defensive lines. Instead, Shanahan saw fit to jettison Griese, and bring in George Foster, a move that I applauded. I never looked back, and still don't... until someone who can't make a case in favor of Plummer's playoff performance gets frustrated and decides to dig up the bones of Griese in hopes to divert the discussion.

Absolutely Jake Plummer > Brian Griese. But what does that have anything to do with the fact that Jake hasn't yet lived up to his expectations in the post season? That acknowledgement doesn't take away a single of Jake's six boneheaded interceptions in four playoff contests. Does it?

[BroncoInferno]

Elway didn't have a playoff game without an INT until his 10th outing.

10 games without a non-INT performance in the playoffs.

Ten.

Congrats on that little job of side-stepping. I never compared Elway to Plummer, even though that's always been your weak, knee-jerk reaction to anyone bringing your blatant double standards to the table.

And thanks for proving my point that your standard for Plummer is much different than the ones you had for Elway and Griese. Elway got a free pass for his INT's in the playoffs and Griese got a free pass for, well, everything. You swung on SOBs knob despite the fact that he could never so much as get this team to the postseason. Oh yeah, just like the Lelie apologists, you blamed that on everyone else.

Whatever. You seem to be pretty comfortable with your hypocrisy, so go ahead and run with it.

Elway also has the most career INTs of any QB in Super Bowl history. I'm sure Taco was bitching and moaning about Elway being responsible for the 55 points SF scored on our defense...after all, Elway kept giving them a short field to work with ROFL!

[Taco John]

Plummer is better than Elway EVER was.....;)

Seriously though.....Plummer, too, "carried" the Cardinals to a playoff appearance and victory....something that hadn't been done in over 40+ years at the time.

And the guy broke Elway's single season yardage mark.

Point is, the guy DOES have talent.....he's been getting better every year in the Broncos' system.

People just can't seem to let go of the "Cardinal Years".....one of the worst teams in NFL history. Tell you what, ANY QB would have had horrible stats had they been asked to steer THAT ship.....

Do you think Tom Brady would be Tom Brady as we know him, had he started his career with Arizona? Nope.....


For my part, I don't have any interest good or bad in what Plummer accomplished (or didn't accomplish) as a Cardinal. My discussion points surround only his time in Denver.

[Clockwork Orange]

Absolutely Jake Plummer > Brian Griese. But what does that have anything to do with the fact that Jake hasn't yet lived up to his expectations in the post season? That acknowledgement doesn't take away a single of Jake's six boneheaded interceptions in four playoff contests. Does it?

For some reason you keep running back to this as if it's what I've been talking about at any time. You're using this as yet another platform for your endless Plummer bashing, I'm calling you on being inconsistant and setting double standards as it applies to Plummer and other Bronco QB's. Even then you can't stop repeating the same lines over and over. But hey, I guess when that's all you've got, you stick to your guns.

Again, this is the same circular discussion that it's always been. But don't worry, I'll make sure to point it out when you're giving Cutler a free pass for his mistakes.

[Taco John]

Elway also has the most career INTs of any QB in Super Bowl history. I'm sure Taco was b****ing and moaning about Elway being responsible for the 55 points SF scored on our defense...after all, Elway kept giving them a short field to work with ROFL!


Consider that Dan Reeves decided to draft Tommy Maddox to replace Elway, and was promptly fired by Bowlen the season after. Wanna make a bet that Shanahan doesn't suffer the same fate come January?

I'm not the only one who thinks any comparison between Plummer and Elway is laughable.

[Clockwork Orange]

Elway also has the most career INTs of any QB in Super Bowl history. I'm sure Taco was b****ing and moaning about Elway being responsible for the 55 points SF scored on our defense...after all, Elway kept giving them a short field to work with ROFL!

Yes, and I'm sure that it was Elway's fault for not being able to keep up when Doug Williams and Timmy Smith were tearing the Broncos a new ass in the Super Bowl. And dammit, if only Elway would have done his job and matched Phil Simms pass for pass, we might have found a way to win that one too.

Oh wait, I forgot, the "Elway Exemption." Nevermind, that bull**** standard only applies to Jake Plummer.

[BroncoInferno]

Consider that Dan Reeves decided to draft Tommy Maddox to replace Elway, and was promptly fired by Bowlen the season after. Wanna make a bet that Shanahan doesn't suffer the same fate come January?

Hey, would you mind digging out your chart "proving" how had Elway not turned the ball over against San Francisco, or produced more long scoring drives, the defense would not have allowed 55 points and we would have won that Super Bowl? I mean, you are such a consistent guy afterall; I'm sure you made one. ROFL!

[Clockwork Orange]

I'm not the only one who thinks any comparison between Plummer and Elway is laughable.

Oh Jesus, no one is comparing Plummer to Elway. Once again, it's your knee-jerk reaction to come with this crap whenever someone points out the glaring inconsistancies in the way you judge QB's.

[Taco John]

Again, this is the same circular discussion that it's always been. But don't worry, I'll make sure to point it out when you're giving Cutler a free pass for his mistakes.


And I will too, so long as I believe in him. The minute he stomps out that flame, though...

The door is open for Jake to earn back that belief. All he has to do is make it through a post season contest without throwing an interception.

Shanahan has taken every excuse from the guy this offseason, I think we can all agree. It's time to do or die.

[Taco John]

Oh Jesus, no one is comparing Plummer to Elway. Once again, it's your knee-jerk reaction to come with this crap whenever someone points out the glaring inconsistancies in the way you judge QB's.



You're wrong. There's an inherent comparison being made when you say "you didn't blame Elway for his mistakes, but you're blaming Plummer for his." There is an inherent comparison, whether you like it or not. Elway had talent far and above what Plummer possesses, and no matter how bad his mistakes got, you knew that he was capable of pulling through and correcting the ship. Plummer hasn't demonstrated the same and thus doesn't get the same benefit of a doubt.

You CAN'T compare Plummer to Elway, which is why you can't criticize the differences in how people react to their mistakes. Elway carried this team on his back. Plummer has been carried by this team. There's an ocean of difference between the two.

I'll wholly and unabashadly admit that I hold/held Elway and Plummer to two different standards.

[Clockwork Orange]

And I will too, so long as I believe in him. The minute he stomps out that flame, though...

The door is open for Jake to earn back that belief. All he has to do is make it through a post season contest without throwing an interception.

Shanahan has taken every excuse from the guy this offseason, I think we can all agree. It's time to do or die.

Well, I personally think that's a ridiculous way of looking at it, but that's just my opinion. I don't buy into the idea that as long as I believe in a player, he's above criticism. I believe in Rod Smith, Al Wilson and Champ Bailey and I've criticized every one of them at one point or another. I just don't carry it with me everywhere I go for all eternity as you do with Plummer.

[Taco John]

Well, I personally think that's a ridiculous way of looking at it, but that's just my opinion. I don't buy into the idea that as long as I believe in a player, he's above criticism. I believe in Rod Smith, Al Wilson and Champ Bailey and I've criticized every one of them at one point or another. I just don't carry it with me everywhere I go for all eternity as you do with Plummer.


I don't believe *any* player is above criticism. But the difference between being "a basher" and being "an apologist" is the degree that you believe the player can get the job done when the chips are down.

Until Plummer proves it by making it through a playoff game without throwing an interception, I'll criticize him for not being able to make it through a playoff game without throwing an interception. When he finally does that, THEN I might be able to get onboard with the idea that he deserves the benefit of a doubt. But until that moment, all we have is a guy who Shanahan is having to manage and limit decisions in order to win game by game.

Let me prove my point by asking you a simple question:

What is the opposite of "No Mistake Jake?"

[Clockwork Orange]

You're wrong. There's an inherent comparison being made when you say "you didn't blame Elway for his mistakes, but you're blaming Plummer for his." There is an inherent comparison, whether you like it or not. Elway had talent far and above what Plummer possesses, and no matter how bad his mistakes got, you knew that he was capable of pulling through and correcting the ship. Plummer hasn't demonstrated the same and thus doesn't get the same benefit of a doubt.

Really? Then why didn't Elway keep us in the game against Washington or San Francisco? That's what you criticize Plummer for, not being able to keep up with Manning and his offense in those playoff losses. It's funny, everyone knows that there's a giant gap in talent between Elway and Plummer, yet you criticize Plummer for not being able to do what even Elway couldn't......which is win games single-handedly in the postseason when the team was overmatched.

You CAN'T compare Plummer to Elway, which is why you can't criticize the differences in how people react to their mistakes. Elway carried this team on his back. Plummer has been carried by this team. There's an ocean of difference between the two.

No, but you can compare the situations, which is all I've been doing. The only one talking comparison between the players is you.

[BroncoInferno]

What is the opposite of "No Mistake Jake?"

Yes Errorless Jenny?

[BroncoInferno]

Really? Then why didn't Elway keep us in the game against Washington or San Francisco? That's what you criticize Plummer for, not being able to keep up with Manning and his offense in those playoff losses. It's funny, everyone knows that there's a giant gap in talent between Elway and Plummer, yet you criticize Plummer for not being able to do what even Elway couldn't......which is win games single-handedly in the postseason when the team was overmatched.

[/I]

No, but you can compare the situations, which is all I've been doing. The only one talking comparison between the players is you.

Exactly. If not even Elway could pull out a win when his teams were overmatched, how in the world can you expect Plummer to do it?

[Clockwork Orange]

I don't believe *any* player is above criticism. But the difference between being "a basher" and being "an apologist" is the degree that you believe the player can get the job done when the chips are down.

Until Plummer proves it by making it through a playoff game without throwing an interception, I'll criticize him for not being able to make it through a playoff game without throwing an interception. When he finally does that, THEN I might be able to get onboard with the idea that he deserves the benefit of a doubt. But until that moment, all we have is a guy who Shanahan is having to manage and limit decisions in order to win game by game.

Let me prove my point by asking you a simple question:

What is the opposite of "No Mistake Jake?"

You're a Plummer basher. If you choose to do your bashing through the closet door, that's your business, but it doesn't make you any less of a basher.

And your new schtick about "I just want him to get through a playoff game without an INT" is just the typical bull**** I expect out of you. You're constantly morphing your expectations of Plummer so that he'll never possibly meet them. If he goes a playoff game without throwing a pick, you'll find something else to whine about and something else to blame him for. Christ, you've whined about an interception that he threw in the first half of a playoff game that the Broncos won. If you can't see how ridiculous that is, there's really nothing left to say.

You've admitted that you're a hypocrite who judges Plummer differently than other Bronco QB's, so I don't see why you're reaching so hard to try and prove otherwise.

[Clockwork Orange]

Exactly. If not even Elway could pull out a win when his teams were overmatched, how in the world can you expect Plummer to do it?

Must be the "Elway Exemption." ::)

[-Slap-]

Exactly. If not even Elway could pull out a win when his teams were overmatched, how in the world can you expect Plummer to do it?
Overmatched? Against Pittsburgh. In Denver.

Yeah, they were the 89 Niners, alright.

Even if they needed bought off refs to beat Seattle on a neutral field two weeks later.

[Taco John]

Oh no he Di' Ent!

[Clockwork Orange]

Overmatched? Against Pittsburgh. In Denver.

Yeah, they were the 89 Niners, alright.

Even if they needed bought off refs to beat Seattle on a neutral field two weeks later.

I was talking about the games in Indy. The ones that TJ has criticized Plummer for not being able to put up 42 and 50 points when the defense gave up 41 and 49.

[WABronco]

Please, do not tell me you have jumped on the Vick can pass Kool Aid Bandwagon LOL
Hardly...

[Taco John]

I was talking about the games in Indy. The ones that TJ has criticized Plummer for not being able to put up 42 and 50 points when the defense gave up 41 and 49.

I never criticized Plummer for not being able to put up 42 and 50 points. I said that Indianapolis would have never had the OPPORTUNITY to score that many points if our offense was executing the game plan. That includes not throwing an interception when we're down 14-3, and instead driving for a touchdown to put the game within reach.

As usual, you have to stretch my argument into something that it's not in order to combat it. It's much easier to stuff a strawman argument than to admit that if our offense is driving for scores and taking time off the clock, Peyton Manning can only watch helplessly from the sidelines.

[watermock]

Kubiak sent the plays in.

[Clockwork Orange]

I never criticized Plummer for not being able to put up 42 and 50 points. I said that Indianapolis would have never had the OPPORTUNITY to score that many points if our offense was executing the game plan. That includes not throwing an interception when we're down 14-3, and instead driving for a touchdown to put the game within reach.

So, per usual, you pick out one bad play by Plummer and that's what sticks out in your mind. Again, exactly what I expect from you.

OK, so if they drive for a TD and make the game 14-10, what happens next? Oh yeah, Manning and company drive right back down the field and score again, just as they did all day against the Broncos defense, to make it 21-10. Then what? Oh, I see, it would have been up to Plummer to get into a shootout with a QB who is vastly superior to him and an offense that was vastly superior to his. Forget the defense, they're absolved of any responsibility, it's all about the offense and Jake Plummer. Great logic there Teej. ::)

As usual, you have to stretch my argument into something that it's not in order to combat it. It's much easier to stuff a strawman argument than to admit that if our offense is driving for scores and taking time off the clock, Peyton Manning can only watch helplessly from the sidelines.

I don't have to stretch anything, your arguments have done nothing but show your own personal bias. You've been reaching to make everything that ails the Broncos the fault of Jake Plummer for some time now. I know, you've got links to a couple of posts where you said something nice about Plummer! That completely offsets the hundreds of posts you've made bagging on the guy! Right?

Spare me.

[Hulamau]

I think Lelie will find the passes even les on target than here, for the most part.

However the one area where he might make both himself and Vick shine is in the "All Dudes Go Deep" route in which Vick can throw the bomb to a general areas of the field and Lelie can run under it . Ash did that all day long at Hawaii and Plummer never had that kind of arm strength, a fact which watching the Lelie 2005 highlights once again emphasizes. Instead of having to stop and come back for jump balls with no possiblity for a RAC or a TD. This is the one area where the two may make each other look good.

I just hope that JAvon can return the favor with Plummer. So many of those long circus catches made last year would have been incomplete with almost anyone else on the receiving end. Then again with Scheff maybe we wont need that so much and can rely on moving the chains more while staying within Jake's comfort range.

The one thing I noticed in all the camp reports and tapes is that we didnt hear a lot from Walker the last 10 days of camp or so after he came back from the soreness in his knee. He seemed to get defensed fairly regularly by Fox, DW or Champ.

And if you watch that last pass in the Titans game to him that Cutler threw that got deflected at the line, you can see the DB hit Walkers leg and he skipped on it a bit and ran right to the bench and sat down.

I just hope the guy is ready for real prime time!

P.S. John Clayton just said WE got the best end of the deal with a great draft choice for Ash!

[watermock]

A box of jumbo crayons and a sketch-all would of been equal value.

Some talking head gave Washington an A for the trade too. What did they get?

Atlanta at least got a motivated player.

Denver got a cocktail of god knows what.

Washington got Ducket and dick. The best thing would be they have a better record and only have to give up a 3rd and 4th. We could of traded Dayne or Nash for a 6th.

They are going to wind up give both a high swap in the first and a high third.

I'm getting anxious...no announcement yet.

[ol number 7]

Maybey it is so they can pull all the DB's way down field to clear out the outsides for Vick to run too. ???

Remember Lelie don't want to block. He's a STAR !!!:notworthy

[Moon§hiner]

I think Alex Gibbs just "might" expect him to do a little blocking which Ashlie never impressed me at. I expect him to be a free agent next season and leave Atlanta.

[scorpio]

Ladies, ladies.

You're BOTH fat.

[BurgundyNGold]

A box of jumbo crayons and a sketch-all would of been equal value.

Some talking head gave Washington an A for the trade too. What did they get?

Atlanta at least got a motivated player.

Denver got a cocktail of god knows what.

Washington got Ducket and dick. The best thing would be they have a better record and only have to give up a 3rd and 4th. We could of traded Dayne or Nash for a 6th.

They are going to wind up give both a high swap in the first and a high third.

I'm getting anxious...no announcement yet.
Denver got the best of this three way trade, but Atlanta got the pointed end of that stick. Check it out:

1) Denver traded away a disgruntled stretch of a 1st rounder who was meant to replace Rod Smith but never could. Lelie is tantalizingly good when not dropping the ball, yet will never be half the receiver Rod Smith is. Shanny got a 3rd rounder back for him too.

2) Washington got a RB more in the Gibbs mold (Riggins, Rogers, Riggs) and Saunders mold (Holmes, Johnson) that had very little mileage on him. Duckett was a misfit in the WCO and will do much better to back up an injured Portis in DC. This allows Portis to recover from his shoulder injury in his own time and not have to get targeted and pawed at by defenses. Good idea if you want Portis around in December and January. BTW, the Redskins are actively looking to trade Ladell Betts too, so that #3 that went out to Denver might come back as a #3, #4 or #5 before too long. In that case it would essentially be a trade of Betts for Duckett, plus possibly swapping a #3 for a #4 or #5. Not bad, really.

3) Atlanta got the shaft, I think. When Finneran went down, they got worried and panicked, IMO. Now, they've got 3 speed receivers and they're trying to run a WCO. Not good. Where's the Jerry Rice? How about the John Taylors? Lelie has a big body, but he won't be able to run those inside slants that Rice used to run. Besides, Vick is too busy running around to get his receivers the ball on time, so what to WRs matter anyway?

[Inkana7]

This is funny, cause in madden I traded Assley to the Falcons. Of course, he became a pro bowler there.

[Taco John]

So, per usual, you pick out one bad play by Plummer and that's what sticks out in your mind. Again, exactly what I expect from you.


Actually, there are six bad plays from Plummer that stick out in my mind. Which is the whole point of why I've lost faith in his ability to lead this team in the playoffs. And whether you believe I'm biased or not, I'm not the one who jockeyed up the draft board to nab Cutler. That move belongs to the man whose biases actually count.

Here's hoping "No Mistake Jake" finds his way into the playoffs and finally slays the monkey on his back.

[Odysseus]

I think all parties won on this trade but how much depends on health and what they ultimately pickup for it. Duckett and Portis is actually a pretty decent combination and since Portis isn't out for the season (that I know of) I think Skins could pull off another fun season. Falcons is a great organization with Arthur Blank and regardless Lelie got lucky. Broncos were kind to him.

[Clockwork Orange]

Actually, there are six bad plays from Plummer that stick out in my mind. Which is the whole point of why I've lost faith in his ability to lead this team in the playoffs. And whether you believe I'm biased or not, I'm not the one who jockeyed up the draft board to nab Cutler. That move belongs to the man whose biases actually count.

Here's hoping "No Mistake Jake" finds his way into the playoffs and finally slays the monkey on his back.

Yes, they did move up for Cutler. They secured the future of the position. Only people like you are now predictably jumping the gun and calling for Cutler to start this year. It's a shame how shortsighted that you and your ilk are, but then you can't seem to see anything more than 6 plays from the playoff games, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Thank goodness that the people whose biases count have a much better perspective than you.

It's always cute when you put that little qualifier there at the end to give yourself an out. You rip him endlessly and then point to that one sentence and pretend as if you've supported him all along. Nice.

[Taco John]

They secured the future of the position. Only people like you are now predictably jumping the gun and calling for Cutler to start this year. It's a shame how shortsighted that you and your ilk are, but then you can't seem to see anything more than 6 plays from the playoff games, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Thank goodness that the people whose biases count have a much better perspective than you.

It's always cute when you put that little qualifier there at the end to give yourself an out. You rip him endlessly and then point to that one sentence and pretend as if you've supported him all along. Nice.



Huh? What are you talking about? I haven't once suggested that Cutler should absolutely start this year. I'm still interested in the competition, and am pleased to see how well Plummer is responding to it. But as far as Cutler is concerned, I agree with Kaylore's take that while Cutler is having a great camp and might even look better than Jake at times (especially downfield) it's probably unfair to the veterans to start a rookie over a guy who they've gone to battle with for three years running now.

Trust me. If I was calling for Jake's head, I'd be a lot more forward about it. I'm not looking for any "outs" when it comes to Jake, so I don't know what qualifiers you're talking about. The only thing I'm looking for from him at this point is a single playoff game where he doesn't CHOKE.

[Clockwork Orange]

Huh? What are you talking about? I haven't once suggested that Cutler should absolutely start this year. I'm still interested in the competition, and am pleased to see how well Plummer is responding to it. But as far as Cutler is concerned, I agree with Kaylore's take that while Cutler is having a great camp and might even look better than Jake at times (especially downfield) it's probably unfair to the veterans to start a rookie over a guy who they've gone to battle with for three years running now.

Trust me. If I was calling for Jake's head, I'd be a lot more forward about it. I'm not looking for any "outs" when it comes to Jake, so I don't know what qualifiers you're talking about. The only thing I'm looking for from him at this point is a single playoff game where he doesn't CHOKE.

Really? Want me to link you to the post where you said that you believe that Cutler will be leading the Broncos into the playoffs this year?

I'm talking about the occasional, "I sure hope Jake gets it done! Yay! Go Broncos!" posts that you throw out there and then link to when people call you on your Plummer bashing. Hell, you used to keep one in your sig. You obviously don't have the balls to just admit that you're a Plummer hater, so you always leave a little something like that so that you can continue to switch sides of the fence as it suits you.

Maybe we should call you Waffleboy.

[Taco John]

Really? Want me to link you to the post where you said that you believe that Cutler will be leading the Broncos into the playoffs this year?

It was made tongue in cheek. My best attempt at a Baja prediction. Though, admitedly, I'd love to see it. I've seen Jake's playoff act and am pretty fed up with it. I'm all for our rookie getting valuable playoff experience.


I'm talking about the occasional, "I sure hope Jake gets it done! Yay! Go Broncos!" posts that you throw out there and then link to when people call you on your Plummer bashing. Hell, you used to keep one in your sig. You obviously don't have the balls to just admit that you're a Plummer hater, so you always leave a little something like that so that you can continue to switch sides of the fence as it suits you.

Maybe we should call you Waffleboy.


If I hated Plummer you'd have a point. But the fact is, he's the Broncos quarterback, and right now he's the Broncos ticket to the Superbowl, even if to my chagrin. That chagrin will dissipate the minute the guy steps up in the playoffs and does something worth defending.

There's no switching sides of the fence here. I'm in favor of the Broncos winning. I don't honestly care WHO the quarterback is, so long as they get the job done. I absolutely want Plummer to prove me wrong, and feel absolutely no remorse in rooting for him to do so. Likewise, I feel no remorse in giving him his due criticism.

[Clockwork Orange]

I don't honestly care WHO the quarterback is, so long as they get the job done.


That's a bold-faced lie. We've already established that you hold Plummer to a different standard than other Broncos QB's, so don't give me this line about how you don't care who the Broncos QB is.

[Saddletramp]

that doesn't surprise me
if he was mad at how Jake threw the ball, wait till he gets a load of Michael Vick
how mad do you think he will be when Vick runs right by him on the field for a touchdown and he was open???:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


and racks up more yards than he does.

[Taco John]

That's a bold-faced lie. We've already established that you hold Plummer to a different standard than other Broncos QB's, so don't give me this line about how you don't care who the Broncos QB is.



Oh please... More of this Elway stuff...

Sorry. I hold Elway in a different standard than Plummer. This I cannot deny. I grew up watching Elway, and idolized the guy. I'm not 12 anymore though...

Every good Broncos fan holds Elway to a different standard than Plummer. Comparing quarterbacks from different years, you HAVE to hold them to a different standard because there are different team dynamics at play. The only quarterbacks you can hold to the same standards are the ones who are playing on the same team together. And even then some are going to get more leeway than others due to upside and salary cap. That's just reality. Life isn't fair.

I can't believe you even try to go there... It's humorous to say the least.

[Odysseus]

Actually, there are six bad plays from Plummer that stick out in my mind. Which is the whole point of why I've lost faith in his ability to lead this team in the playoffs. And whether you believe I'm biased or not, I'm not the one who jockeyed up the draft board to nab Cutler. That move belongs to the man whose biases actually count.

Here's hoping "No Mistake Jake" finds his way into the playoffs and finally slays the monkey on his back.

I understand your antipathy for Plummer but you really should stop making up crap to attack him. There is plenty of non statistical fact where you don't have to create stuff. It's almost embarassing as "I'll go ahead and say it".

Just admit you don't have confidence in the guy and leave it alone. You leave yourself wide open with some of your totally biased statements. Shanahan picked up Cutler becuase of a host of reasons but ultimately it was to renew his lease on ownership of the head coaching slot with the Denver Broncos. You cannot do that without making a significant move.

I watched the Denver Broncos most dedicated fans debating is it time for Shanahan to go right on this board a couple of years back. I think the Cutler move was brilliant because it gives Broncos something that Shanahan has needed this whole time a QB with a gun, who is a quick learner who can throw bullets on the wrong foot if he has to.

Broncos did the right thing getting Cutler. It was the right thing for Plummer as all the pressure is literally off him because he doesn't have guys like you chasing him around with stupid questions all the time. Cutler gets to come in behind a player who, for lack of a better way to say it, isn't idolized in Denver. Let him get used to the media circus, learn the offense and get the grand tour of the league. It was a coup for Shanahan. I loved it.

You remind me of George Costanza whenever you talk about Plummer. It always starts off reasonable and then you start adding in things.

[Clockwork Orange]

Oh please... More of this Elway stuff...

Sorry. I hold Elway in a different standard than Plummer. This I cannot deny. I grew up watching Elway, and idolized the guy. I'm not 12 anymore though...

Every good Broncos fan holds Elway to a different standard than Plummer. Comparing quarterbacks from different years, you HAVE to hold them to a different standard because there are different team dynamics at play. The only quarterbacks you can hold to the same standards are the ones who are playing on the same team together. And even then some are going to get more leeway than others due to upside and salary cap. That's just reality. Life isn't fair.

I can't believe you even try to go there... It's humorous to say the least.

Forgetting Brian Griese and the way you gave him a free pass despite the fact that he never so much as got the Broncos to the playoffs? Your tune was a little different with him. I seem to remember that you were one of the most staunch supporters of #14. You certainly didn't take advantage of every opportunity available to take digs at him as you do with Plummer.

But all that doesn't count because you criticized Griese to Slap in a chat room once, right? Sure.

[Taco John]

I understand your antipathy for Plummer but you really should stop making up crap to attack him. There is plenty of non statistical fact where you don't have to create stuff. It's almost embarassing as "I'll go ahead and say it".

Just admit you don't have confidence in the guy and leave it alone. You leave yourself wide open with some of your totally biased statements. Shanahan picked up Cutler becuase of a host of reasons but ultimately it was to renew his lease on ownership of the head coaching slot with the Denver Broncos. You cannot do that without making a significant move.

I watched the Denver Broncos most dedicated fans debating is it time for Shanahan to go right on this board a couple of years back. I think the Cutler move was brilliant because it gives Broncos something that Shanahan has needed this whole time a QB with a gun, who is a quick learner who can throw bullets on the wrong foot if he has to.

Broncos did the right thing getting Cutler. It was the right thing for Plummer as all the pressure is literally off him because he doesn't have guys like you chasing him around with stupid questions all the time. Cutler gets to come in behind a player who, for lack of a better way to say it, isn't idolized in Denver. Let him get used to the media circus, learn the offense and get the grand tour of the league. It was a coup for Shanahan. I loved it.

You remind me of George Costanza whenever you talk about Plummer. It always starts off reasonable and then you start adding in things.


I don't know what you're talking about. I haven't made a single thing up. And this idea that Plummer has all of the pressure literally off him? Huh? The guy has more pressure on him than he's ever had in his career right now... and he's managing it admirably, I'd add.

[Odysseus]

I hope that there is never a QB controversy in Denver.

I hope that Plummer keeps Cutler pinned to the bench or that the day Cutler starts he is never gives up the starting job.

[Taco John]

Forgetting Brian Griese and the way you gave him a free pass despite the fact that he never so much as got the Broncos to the playoffs? Your tune was a little different with him. I seem to remember that you were one of the most staunch supporters of #14. You certainly didn't take advantage of every opportunity available to take digs at him as you do with Plummer.

But all that doesn't count because you criticized Griese to Slap in a chat room once, right? Sure.


I DIDN"T give Brian Griese a free pass. I gave him the same pass you're giving Plummer when you criticize Foster and Lepsis. Only Foster and Lepsis are 10x better than what Griese had to deal with. I was yelling my head off about the absolute lack of protection that Griese had, not pardoning Griese for making the boneheaded throw to begin with. I was saying that we should hold onto him for quarterback depth, not just give him the job endlessly no matter how many mistakes he made.

I feel the same about Plummer. We shouldn't just get rid of him. We should hold onto him and use him for a back-up once we bring Cutler up to speed. Provided he's willing, of course. Griese was a beaten down man, and I believe would have accepted the role.

[Taco John]

The amusing thing is that I don't have to accuse you of being anything to make my arguments stick. All I have to do is lay out the facts.

[Clockwork Orange]

I DIDN"T give Brian Griese a free pass. I gave him the same pass you're giving Plummer when you criticize Foster and Lepsis. Only Foster and Lepsis are 10x better than what Griese had to deal with. I was yelling my head off about the absolute lack of protection that Griese had, not pardoning Griese for making the boneheaded throw to begin with. I was saying that we should hold onto him for quarterback depth, not just give him the job endlessly no matter how many mistakes he made.

I feel the same about Plummer. We shouldn't just get rid of him. We should hold onto him and use him for a back-up once we bring Cutler up to speed. Provided he's willing, of course. Griese was a beaten down man, and I believe would have accepted the role.

Wait, so you're saying that when Griese was here, you were actually capable of placing blame on more than just the QB? What happened?

And don't even start with how Plummer's got it so much better on the O-line than Griese had it because Griese would be just as ineffective with this group as he was with that one. The Broncos current O-line isn't any better in pass protection than they were in those days, the difference is that they've got a mobile QB who can evade a rush now. Griese was a slug in the pocket and basically a stationary target for oncoming rushers, Plummer can scramble and run. Yet another reason why Plummer is a far better fit for this team than Griese ever was.

[Clockwork Orange]

The amusing thing is that I don't have to accuse you of being anything to make my arguments stick. All I have to do is lay out the facts.

The real amusing thing is that you believe so strongly in the hairbrained arguments you keep repeating.

[Taco John]

The Broncos current O-line isn't any better in pass protection than they were in those days


I disagree... I think we get a lot more consistent protection from the blind side than we have since the days Tony Jones was manning the fort. But this is an argument between you and Popps really, because his argument was that since we were getting such great run blocking support from the O-line, it only stands to reason that we were also giving good pass protection. I tried to explain to him that wasn't the case, but it never sunk in.

Whether Griese would do better than Plummer can only be left up to speculation, but I'd take Plummer over Griese due to his mobility for the same reasons that you would. Which kind of shoots a hole in the whole "I'm just holding a grudge against Plummer because I like Griese so much" theory.

[Clockwork Orange]

Whether Griese would do better than Plummer can only be left up to speculation.

Actually no, I'll go ahead and tell you right now that Griese would have been just as much a failure with this group as he was before. He had more weapons to work with than Plummer has had. Christ, he inherited a team that was full of guys who'd just won a pair of Super Bowls. Rod, Ed & Shannon were all there. The running game was always effective. Yet the Broncos didn't win with Griese as they do with Plummer. Now how do you figure that?

There's also the little detail that Plummer's teammates actually like him and want to play for him. Can't really say the same for Griese. I don't know what kind of leader Jake is, but I do know that he's a team guy who burns to win, a polar opposite of what we saw from Griese.

[24champ]

Actually no, I'll go ahead and tell you right now that Griese would have been just as much a failure with this group as he was before. He had more weapons to work with than Plummer has had. Christ, he inherited a team that was full of guys who'd just won a pair of Super Bowls. Rod, Ed & Shannon were all there. The running game was always effective. Yet the Broncos didn't win with Griese as they do with Plummer. Now how do you figure that?

There's also the little detail that Plummer's teammates actually like him and want to play for him. Can't really say the same for Griese. I don't know what kind of leader Jake is, but I do know that he's a team guy who burns to win, a polar opposite of what we saw from Griese.
Yeah if we had another QB other than SOB then maybe just MAYBE TD would have had a longer career.

[Hulamau]

Both Greise and Plummer have gotten better over the past 3 years. I suspect BG would do better with us now thant he did originally and Jake is a much better QB than his last year in Arizona which was the last time Greise was with us.

There is no question that Plummer is more one of the guys than Griese, who was always too sullen and remote. But Greise has definitely gotten better over all and seems more relaxed than when he was under the microscope here.

He's also a fundamentally more accurate pocket passer than Jake, but Jake is much better at the bootleg and throwing on the run.

[Clockwork Orange]

Both Greise and Plummer have gotten better over the past 3 years. I suspect BG would do better with us now thant he did originally and Jake is a much better QB than his last year in Arizona which was the last time Greise was with us.

There is no question that Plummer is more one of the guys than Griese, who was always too sullen and remote. But Greise has definitely gotten better over all and seems more relaxed than when he was under the microscope here.

He's also a fundamentally more accurate pocket passer than Jake, but Jake is much better at the bootleg and throwing on the run.

If Griese's been improving over the last few years, why is he with his 3rd team in 4 years? He's officially earned journeyman status.

[ClevelandBronco]

I think this officially makes Ashlie the Shelley Long of football.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6302869455.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Hulamau]

Griese looked a lot better at Tampa Bay last year ( and at Chicago so for in the preseason) and yet he's been a caretaker every spot hes been. By my saying he is playing 'better' that doenst mean "great"... just what it says.. hes a more knowledgable and more mature QB and I suspect as a person, but BG will never be more than a decent also-ran.

PLummer is better than he used to be too and has benefited mightily from being on a first class team that is peaking in all areas at the right time and the Broncos have also benefited from having Plummer relative to Griese, but I'm not convinced that's gonna be enough.

I hope it is this year, and if Jake makes the same level of improvement as he did last year we could go all the way. He looked great against the Titans relatively marginal defense the other night, but I want to see how things shake out against the likes of NE, Pittsburg and Indy before declaring him the next Joe Montana.

When Jake almost handed the ball to a Titan near the goal line when he got blasted, I did wince on the replay. He tried an underhand pitch in-between two Titans to a Bronco who was the least likely of the three guys to catch it and was very lucky it wasnt INTed for a 100 yard run back. Thats the kind of mind farts we can do without even if they come from his natural competitive instincts.

Anyway, alls well that ends well and maybe Jake can win it all this year, particularly with all the attention on Cutler which might help Jake out as well and take a little pressure off for the time being.

[Taco John]

Actually no, I'll go ahead and tell you right now that Griese would have been just as much a failure with this group as he was before. He had more weapons to work with than Plummer has had. Christ, he inherited a team that was full of guys who'd just won a pair of Super Bowls. Rod, Ed & Shannon were all there. The running game was always effective. Yet the Broncos didn't win with Griese as they do with Plummer. Now how do you figure that?


Like I say... I'm not going to bother with hollow speculation. I will say that it's humorous to compare a two year player inhereting the pressures of a Superbowl offense with a six year veteran with nowhere to go but up. Shanahan managed miracles with both of them.

[Clockwork Orange]

Like I say... I'm not going to bother with hollow speculation. I will say that it's humorous to compare a two year player inhereting the pressures of a Superbowl offense with a six year veteran with nowhere to go but up. Shanahan managed miracles with both of them.

Pressures of Super Bowl offense? Try luxury of a Super Bowl offense. Yeah, it must have sucked for Griese to have all the pressure of throwing passes to Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey and Shannon Sharpe. Wow, even to this day you're still making excuses for the tin man.

Probably would have done him a world of good if he had any passion for the game, leadership skills or personality to speak of.

[SoCalBronco]

The offensive talent varied significantly under Griese. It was a mixed bag. The first half of his career here, he had Ed and Rod in their primes, but that changed ofcourse on 9/10. He didnt really have anything at TE from the fifth game in 99 when Sharpe went down, till his return in 02. Clark was serviceable, the rest of the TE group was very weak. Griese had a nice running game every year except for 2001. He also had a very weak pass protecting OL. That was actually one of the reasons we went for Jake. Instead of making a massive investment in some real pass protecting tackles, we went the mobile QB route, to cut down on sacks.

[24champ]

Like I say... I'm not going to bother with hollow speculation. I will say that it's humorous to compare a two year player inhereting the pressures of a Superbowl offense with a six year veteran with nowhere to go but up. Shanahan managed miracles with both of them.
Yup after several years with both QBs, shanny told one of them to take a hike. Like you said earlier in the thread Shanny opinion is the only one that matters.

[Clockwork Orange]

The offensive talent varied significantly under Griese. It was a mixed bag. The first half of his career here, he had Ed and Rod in their primes, but that changed ofcourse on 9/10. He didnt really have anything at TE from the fifth game in 99 when Sharpe went down, till his return in 02. Clark was serviceable, the rest of the TE group was very weak. Griese had a nice running game every year except for 2001. He also had a very weak pass protecting OL. That was actually one of the reasons we went for Jake. Instead of making a massive investment in some real pass protecting tackles, we went the mobile QB route, to cut down on sacks.

Pretty much the same story with Plummer. He had one year of Sharpe and it's been a revolving door at TE ever since. There's been a different starter at RB each year of his Bronco career. Rod has been a constant, Lelie was his usual one trick pony self and there hasn't been much beyond that. They were able to expirament with Lepsis at LT because they had a mobile QB under center. You think that would have worked with the statue-esque Griese in there? I have my doubts.

[Taco John]

Pressures of Super Bowl offense? Try luxury of a Super Bowl offense.

They were luxuries while they lasted, and Griese took advantage of them while he could.

But tell me again... Why are we talking about Griese? What does Griese have anything to do with Plummer's inability to execute in the post season? I fully understand that Griese was one of Shanahan's failed projects. I just don't understand what bearing that has on Plummer.

[Taco John]

Pretty much the same story with Plummer. He had one year of Sharpe and it's been a revolving door at TE ever since. There's been a different starter at RB each year of his Bronco career. Rod has been a constant, Lelie was his usual one trick pony self and there hasn't been much beyond that. They were able to expirament with Lepsis at LT because they had a mobile QB under center. You think that would have worked with the statue-esque Griese in there? I have my doubts.


Lepsis is a top ten left tackle regardless of who is back there. The guy flat delivers the protection.

[Clockwork Orange]

They were luxuries while they lasted, and Griese took advantage of them while he could.

But tell me again... Why are we talking about Griese? What does Griese have anything to do with Plummer's inability to execute in the post season? I fully understand that Griese was one of Shanahan's failed projects. I just don't understand what bearing that has on Plummer.

We were actually talking about your ridiculous double standards and the raging hate-on you've got for Plummer.

You've used it as an excuse to take pot shots at Plummer in just about every post.....all while denying that you're a hater.

Talk about humerous......

[ludo21]

what does any of this have to do with Lelie??

Why is it a constant fight about the past, who gives a crap.

[Clockwork Orange]

Lepsis is a top ten left tackle regardless of who is back there. The guy flat delivers the protection.

And that has nothing to do with the fact that he has a mobile QB who runs plenty of bootlegs and designed rollouts? Whatever you want to believe.

[Clockwork Orange]

what does any of this have to do with Lelie??

Why is it a constant fight about the past, who gives a crap.

Because this is TJ's board, where every thread is an excuse to rip Jake Plummer thread.

[broncocalijohn]

Maybey it is so they can pull all the DB's way down field to clear out the outsides for Vick to run too. ???
So he will be the 1st WR decoy? i wonder what kind of pay he can get next year for being a decoy. Tha tagent will be fired very soon, well after the season is over. He had love in Denver. He will never have anything of a tie to a city. No commercials -NOTHING! DUMBASS! Enjoy Atlanta.

[watermock]

So he will be the 1st WR decoy? i wonder what kind of pay he can get next year for being a decoy. Tha tagent will be fired very soon, well after the season is over. He had love in Denver. He will never have anything of a tie to a city. No commercials -NOTHING! DUMBASS! Enjoy Atlanta.

Well first, you must have brain deprevation by your avatar. Lelie will be a free agent after this year. I doubt they broght him in to be a decoy with Finneran out with a knee injury. Your an idiot. The tagent will be fired soon? Huh? He never reached out to Denver anyway, why should we worship a spoiled brat? The last sentence is a total assertion. He may very well sign a long term contract and see the error in his ways. Are you able to see into the future there Swami? Your an idiot.

[broncocalijohn]

Well first, you must have brain deprevation by your avatar. Lelie will be a free agent after this year. I doubt they broght him in to be a decoy with Finneran out with a knee injury. Your an idiot. The tagent will be fired soon? Huh? He never reached out to Denver anyway, why should we worship a spoiled brat? The last sentence is a total assertion. He may very well sign a long term contract and see the error in his ways. Are you able to see into the future there Swami? Your an idiot.

Damn, you are drunk earlier than normal. I was quoting from another poster. As a joke. You cant see the humor of the 1st string decoy cause you are blitzed once again as you try to throw the beer cans for a three pointer across the room. Of course they didnt bring him in as a decoy. The poster was joking that they would send him down the field so Vick can run. You should have never got off the 12 step program. Lelie made a huge mistake and unless he performs to what he thinks he is as good as, he has made IMO a huge mistake. It is an opinion what will happen in the future. I know in the future, you will have nightmares of lil barry coming to your trailor for a visit. My avatar is a gift for you and i proudly show it with your name under it. BTW: have u ever seen kitty olympics. It is like gymnastics but with cats and they always seem to land on all fours. Flipping kitties. You should try it as I will in your honor.

[BroncoInferno]

Overmatched? Against Pittsburgh. In Denver.

Yeah, they were the 89 Niners, alright.

Even if they needed bought off refs to beat Seattle on a neutral field two weeks later.

Sometimes you are overmatched on an individual day when you would normally be able to compete with that team. Similar to the Super Bowl against Washington. That team was not 42-10 better than the Broncos on most Sundays, but they were on that one. Based on how the TEAM played against Pitt, Elway would not have won either.

[fontaine]

Other way around.

Chicken and egg. But it's an argument that can't be proven until Jake gets through a playoff game without choking up an interception. Which is all I'm asking of him at this point.

Well then it's a pretty damn good thing that Shanahan went out of his way to help Plummer this offseason by getting him the right tools for the job like Walker, Marshall, Scheffler.

If you're holding onto hope that somehow Plummer will be the salvation of the Broncos offense and play mistake free football then you need to slap yourself hard and wake up, smell the coffee. Jake is not a difference maker. He's not going to pull a Tom Brady and reel off playoff wins without a running game, or decent WRs. Plummer is only as good as his offense and in that regard Lelie failed miserabley and was replaced.

But if you want to, go ahead, feel free to put it all on Jake and say we won't win nothing until he plays that mystical mistake free game in the playoffs. It's probably easier to do that, than think about the dynamic of this offense.

[fontaine]

This would all be a lot easier if we just sat back and thought about WHY Jake Plummer was brought here in the first place.

We didn't spend a top 10 pick, or drop an insane amount of money for Jake. He was brought in as a stopgap, someone that would do enough to make us forget about the skid mark that was Griese.

He was never brought in to be the saviour of this franchise. That curse belongs to Cutler. I think 30 wins over three seasons and three shots in the playoffs is about as much as you can realistically expect from Plummer.

Do we expect Tatum Bell to come along and put together 2000 yards, and carry us to the playoffs? Or do we think Kenard Lang somehow will be possessed by the ghost of Reggie White and become the next Neil Smith? Or Darius Watts to become TO?

So why do people like Taco John etc put this huge expectation on some guy who's just a good stopgap starter at QB?

The only way Jake suceeds in this offense is the rest of the guys carry him through and not the other way around.

[freak6]

__________________________________________________ _________
<u>BOTTOMLINE</U>

Nothing anyone can say will take away the FACT that Jake Plummer, in the AFC Championship game in Denver, threw 2 interceptions with no pressure on him at all.

Those ints cost us at 10 pts in that game.

[usedupbraids]

Lelie to ATL? oh man im not going to lie Lelie was one of my fav players on the broncos i will miss him this is the dumbest move i seen.1st he doesnt want to be a 3rd WR but gets traded and becomes the 3rd WR,now im going to hang my 85 lelie up ill miss your 2 long passes a game.

[BroncoMatt]

usedupbraides is a perfect term to describe Lelie

[usedupbraids]

usedupbraides is a perfect term to describe Lelie
when the 1st time i heard Lelie wanted to get traded i was confused Rod will hang it up in like 2 years im thinking javon in lelie perfect.I CANT EXPLAN MY HOW MAD I AM IN WORDS:deadhorse

[Florida_Bronco]

usedupbraides is a perfect term to describe Lelie

Actually that posters name should be UsedUpBrains, because he's a total idiot. I'm surprised he came back after Pez hit him with the ban stick.

[usedupbraids]

i was lock down the site yes but me coming at people on the net makes me a loser so ill never do it again plus i dont care what you say i said what i had to say

[Florida_Bronco]

i was lock down the site yes but me coming at people on the net makes me a loser so ill never do it again plus i dont care what you say i said what i had to say

Why didn't you listen when I told you that before you got banned? :kiddingme

Anyways, if you can be cool to people here, we'll be cool to you. Welcome back to the site!

[usedupbraids]

Why didn't you listen when I told you that before you got banned? :kiddingme

Anyways, if you can be cool to people here, we'll be cool to you. Welcome back to the site!
ok Ultimate Troll Killer:kiss:

[Pezman]

ok Ultimate Troll Killer:kiss:

As long as you can keep it clean and keep respectful, we'll welcome you back :afro:

[usedupbraids]

As long as you can keep it clean and keep respectful, we'll welcome you back :afro:
^5 wow im so happy yaaaaaaaaaa i have a tear in my eye

[Florida_Bronco]

Pez you saw that, he tried to kiss me...BAN HIM!!

Hahaha, just kidding. Just like Pez said, we'll welcome you back here. We'll even teach you how to piss of the resident Chief fan we call man Boobs LOL

[55CrushEm]

i was lock down the site yes but me coming at people on the net makes me a loser so ill never do it again plus i dont care what you say i said what i had to say
Don't mean to be a prick.....but could you try using some punctuation in your sentence?

"Holy run on sentence, Batman!"

Lastly, you joined last month, and have already been banned once ? LOL

[usedupbraids]

Don't mean to be a prick.....but could you try using some punctuation in your sentence?

"Holy run on sentence, Batman!"

Lastly, you joined last month, and have already been banned once ? LOL
sry didnt knew we was in school baby :raidersux take out the raiders in put your face there

[Florida_Bronco]

Play nice now guys. We don't need Broncos fans flaming each other...thats what we have Chief and Raider fans here for :)

[usedupbraids]

Play nice now guys. We don't need Broncos fans flaming each other...thats what we have Chief and Raider fans here for :)
see im starting to like you now:kiss:

[watermock]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=5778&dateline=1156404774

Ah yes...the city of Brotherly Love.

[usedupbraids]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=5778&dateline=1156404774

Ah yes...the city of Brotherly Love.
no love to any other fans but broncos so i show some love to you :wiggle:

[Florida_Bronco]

I think that's a cool avatar...somebody should photoshop the kid on the ground wearing Raiders, Chiefs and Chargers jerseys. I'm sure there is a way to get it to change, like an animated avatar.

[usedupbraids]

I think that's a cool avatar...somebody should photoshop the kid on the ground wearing Raiders, Chiefs and Chargers jerseys. I'm sure there is a way to get it to change, like an animated avatar.
i made that myself in trust me its hard to get him a raiders jerseys, thanks tho

[usedupbraids]

any lelie can kiss my black ass now what a dummy