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W*GS
08-19-2006, 11:05 PM
America and Iraq

A litany of abuse
Aug 17th 2006
From The Economist print edition

Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq
By Thomas E. Ricks
Penguin Press; 482 pages; $27.95.
Penguin/Allen Lane; £25

In July 2003 George Bush gave this statement on Iraq: “There are some who feel that the conditions are such that they can attack us there,” the president said. “My answer is: Bring 'em on. We've got the force necessary to deal with the security situation.” A year later, with over 7,000 American dead and wounded, a failed occupation authority and Iraq in flames, one insurgent group issued its response: “Have you another challenge?”

It was not quite so surprising that Mr Bush should fail to grasp that the insurgency could not be defeated by firepower, that America's forces were incapable of trying other ways, and were too few: he believed what his advisers told him. Whether wedded to personal dogmas, like Paul Wolfowitz, the deputy defence secretary, who drove the Iraq policy in ignorance of the reality, or intellectually restricted, like General Tommy Franks, who led the invasion, America's most senior officials failed to comprehend basic strategy. On his desk, Paul Bremer, a disastrous occupation chief, planted the grandiloquent sign: “Success has a thousand fathers”. His cannier, and cold-shouldered, British deputy, Sir Jeremy Greenstock, said it should instead have read: “Security and jobs, stupid”.

Thomas Ricks, a reporter with the Washington Post, has written the latest of several excellent compendiums of these blunders. Many, especially in the war's run-up and early months, are well-known: the fake pre-war intelligence; the failure to commit sufficient troops to the invasion; or to plan for its aftermath, and so on. But Mr Ricks has dug up enough new sources to justify revisiting them. His research took in 37,000 pages of official documents, hundreds of interviews and access to e-mails that, according to one survey, have been written weekly by 95% of American soldiers in Iraq. Perhaps more confidently than in any previous history, he connects America's half-cocked strategy to subsequent calamities on the ground. Most controversially, he describes widespread abuses against Iraqi citizens, including hostage-taking, murder, torture and theft, committed by American soldiers who did not understand why they were in Iraq or what they were supposed to be achieving there. Only a small minority of these crimes, perhaps, such as those at Abu Ghraib prison, have so far come to light.

Another virtue of retelling the whole ugly tale is to dispel a favourite accusation of the Bush administration: that its critics are “Monday morning quarterbacks”, emboldened only by hindsight. At every step, in fact, from the pre-war intelligence to American interrogation tactics, wiser men than those in power questioned each facet of the Iraq policy. These people—in the Central Intelligence Agency, in Congress, and especially in America's armed forces—failed to be heard only because Mr Bush's team viewed any contrary view as dangerous dissent. Donald Rumsfeld, the defence secretary, recently recoiled against a claim that America had made errors in Iraq, despite thousands of official documents listing them, including many that Mr Ricks has unearthed. As America searches for any joy in the fiasco it has made of Iraq, it can at least be proud of serious and brave reporters like Mr Ricks—among whose fine observations is the novel fact that few American troops now care to buy the Iraq campaign T-shirt.

Copyright © 2006 The Economist Newspaper and The Economist Group. All rights reserved.

SteveTensi13
08-20-2006, 01:39 AM
Lets see, the kill ratio of Iraqi's to Americans is what 100 to 1. I like those odds!

SteveTensi13
08-20-2006, 01:57 AM
I believe the alien technology we've been harvesting the last 60 years will come into play soon, its too important of a war to lose.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-20-2006, 08:40 AM
Lets see, the kill ratio of Iraqi's to Americans is what 100 to 1. I like those odds!

Even when a significant number of the Iraqis in question are civilians?

(Nevermind - I forgot you openly advocate "death to all Muslims" for a minute there.)

Bronco_Beerslug
08-20-2006, 09:46 AM
Lets see, the kill ratio of Iraqi's to Americans is what 100 to 1. I like those odds!
Well get over there and get you some.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to answer the statement you made in my sig (click the link).

defenseman
08-20-2006, 11:23 AM
Well get over there and get you some.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to answer the statement you made in my sig (click the link).


A little "10 years after" with good ole Alvin there eh, beerslug?....dman

SteveTensi13
08-20-2006, 11:48 AM
Well get over there and get you some.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to answer the statement you made in my sig (click the link).

I'll have to check with the local DA and get the NM Supreme court decision on that and post it for ya! I read it on the Law Enforcement bulletin and it was on one of our legal update classes.

Spider
08-20-2006, 01:34 PM
I'll have to check with the local DA and get the NM Supreme court decision on that and post it for ya! I read it on the Law Enforcement bulletin and it was on one of our legal update classes.
Ha!

TheDave
08-20-2006, 04:08 PM
Ha!


Where do you find these... :thumbsup:

Spider
08-20-2006, 04:32 PM
Where do you find these... :thumbsup:
:~ohyah!: you mean like this one ?

Spider
08-20-2006, 04:34 PM
Where do you find these... :thumbsup:
;) Super troopers ...... google is the greatest thing since speel chiker ;D

Spider
08-20-2006, 04:58 PM
:~ohyah!:

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-20-2006, 10:06 PM
Bush Makes New Enemies Daily

By using the favorite neoconservative phrase, "Islamic fascists," George W. Bush indicates that he now shares the extremist notion that the United States is engaged in a "World War III" against militants within the world's one billion Muslims.

Despite the U.S. disaster in Iraq and the Israeli failure in Lebanon, Bush also seems to believe that applications of high-tech violence, such as targeted bombings, can succeed in this ill-defined conflict -- although civilian casualties from air attacks are certain to simply recruit more Islamic extremists determined to kill Westerners.

In this guest essay, the Independent Institute's Ivan Eland suggests that
Bush's enemy list may be expanding beyond control...

Continued: http://consortiumnews.com/2006/081706a.html

Once the cold war was over, the people who made their $$$ from war needed a new "evil empire."

That's where Dim Son comes in...

http://www.bartcop.com/recruiter-year.jpg

Rohirrim
08-21-2006, 08:50 AM
Damn, I've got to get that book.

W*GS
08-21-2006, 08:54 AM
Damn, I've got to get that book.

I've already got it on hold from my local library.

Rohirrim
08-21-2006, 08:57 AM
I've already got it on hold from my local library.

I can't tell you how many people I've heard referring to it. It seems to be stirring up the mud amongst the pundit set and those in Washington. I've got to see what all the fuss is about. Time to go to Amazon.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-21-2006, 10:22 AM
I can't tell you how many people I've heard referring to it. It seems to be stirring up the mud amongst the pundit set and those in Washington. I've got to see what all the fuss is about. Time to go to Amazon.
On sale (http://tinyurl.com/pvxed) at Amazon now. Another book that is getting great reviews is... The End of Iraq: How American Incompetence Created a War Without End (http://tinyurl.com/ns5l6)


http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/P/0743294238.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_V62143183_.jpg

Book Description
The End of Iraq, definitive, tough-minded, clear-eyed, describes America's failed strategy toward that country and what must be done now.

The United States invaded Iraq with grand ambitions to bring it democracy and thereby transform the Middle East. Instead, Iraq has disintegrated into three constituent components: a pro-western Kurdistan in the north, an Iran-dominated Shiite entity in the south, and a chaotic Sunni Arab region in the center. The country is plagued by insurgency and is in the opening phases of a potentially catastrophic civil war.

George W. Bush broke up Iraq when he ordered its invasion in 2003. The United States not only removed Saddam Hussein, it also smashed and later dissolved the institutions by which Iraq's Sunni Arab minority ruled the country: its army, its security services, and the Baath Party. With these institutions gone and irreplaceable, the basis of an Iraqi state has disappeared.

The End of Iraq describes the administration's strategic miscalculations behind the war as well as the blunders of the American occupation. There was the failure to understand the intensity of the ethnic and religious divisions in Iraq. This was followed by incoherent and inconsistent strategies for governing, the failure to spend money for reconstruction, the misguided effort to create a national army and police, and then the turning over of the country's management to Republican political loyalists rather than qualified professionals.

As a matter of morality, Galbraith writes, the Kurds of Iraq are no less entitled to independence than are Lithuanians, Croatians, or Palestinians. And if the country's majority Shiites want to run their own affairs, or even have their own state, on what democratic principle should they be denied? If the price of a unified Iraq is another dictatorship, Galbraith writes in The End of Iraq, it is too high a price to pay.

The United States must focus now, not on preserving or forging a unified Iraq, but on avoiding a spreading and increasingly dangerous and deadly civil war. It must accept the reality of Iraq's breakup and work with Iraq's Shiites, Kurds, and Sunni Arabs to strengthen the already semi-independent regions. If they are properly constituted, these regions can provide security, though not all will be democratic.

There is no easy exit from Iraq for America. We have to relinquish our present strategy -- trying to build national institutions when there is in fact no nation. That effort is doomed, Galbraith argues, and it will only leave the United States with an open-ended commitment in circumstances of uncontrollable turmoil.

Peter Galbraith has been in Iraq many times over the last twenty-one years during historic turning points for the country: the Iran-Iraq War, the Kurdish genocide, the 1991 uprising, the immediate aftermath of the 2003 war, and the writing of Iraq's constitutions. In The End of Iraq, he offers many firsthand observations of the men who are now Iraq's leaders. He draws on his nearly two decades of involvement in Iraq policy working for the U.S. government to appraise what has occurred and what will happen. The End of Iraq is the definitive account of this war and its ramifications.

Rohirrim
08-21-2006, 10:26 AM
This is Joe Biden's plan for Iraq too; Accept the reality-on-the-ground that the country has already split into thirds and deal with it on that basis.

alkemical
08-21-2006, 10:42 AM
Can we get some UFO's from area 51 out there?

TailgateNut
08-21-2006, 10:47 AM
:~ohyah!: you mean like this one ?


Where did you get a pic of SteveTensi. I always figured he was a bit light in his shoes!

Spider
08-21-2006, 10:49 AM
Where did you get a pic of SteveTensi. I always figured he was a bit light in his shoes!
;D he mailed it to me , I had to photoshop the Love stevetensi13 part

BroncoBuff
08-21-2006, 11:09 AM
I've already got it on hold from my local library.
Me too ... I've seen the guy on talk shows, and apparently he used numerous CIA sources - current and former.

Spider
08-21-2006, 11:10 AM
what book are you guys talking about ? not that I will read it , I will wait for the Movie ;D

BroncoBuff
08-21-2006, 11:23 AM
Fiasco : the American military adventure in Iraq / Thomas E. Ricks.

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Making a Fiasco

Thomas Ricks spent five tours in Iraq during the war, reporting for the Washington Post and researching and writing Fiasco. Like many of the officers he most admires, when he wanted to understand what was happening as American troops encountered stronger and longer-lived resistance to the occupation than expected, he turned to recent and classic accounts of insurgencies and counterinsurgencies, from the U.S. occupation of the Philippines through the lessons of Vietnam, and he reports on his favorites for us in his list of the 10 books for understanding Iraq that aren't about Iraq. You can also get a glimpse into his writing process with a much different list he has prepared for us: the music he listened to while writing and researching the book, from Stevie Wonder and Joni Mitchell to Ryan Adams and Josh Ritter. And he took the time to answer a few questions about Fiasco:

Amazon.com: As military correspondent for the Post, you have made five trips to Iraq over the last four years. How has it changed over that time?

Thomas E. Ricks: It has been markedly worse each time, in terms of security. On my first trip, in April-May 2003, we would walk out on the streets of Baghdad at night, albeit with caution. Even on my second trip, in the summer of 2003, I would feel comfortable hopping in a car and driving 100 miles north from Baghdad to Tikrit. To do either of those things now would be suicidal. In January and February of this year, Baghdad felt worse to me Mogadishu did when I was there in 1993 or Sarajevo did when I was there a few years later. It appeared to me that there was no security, except what you provided for yourself with armed men and careful planning. One Army major described the city to me as being in "the pure Hobbesian state" in which everybody is fighting everybody.

By the way, contrary to what I see asserted occasionally, most reporters don't live in the Green Zone, the walled-off area in central Baghdad that is the headquarters of the American effort in Iraq. Reporters live out in the city, and I think generally have a better feel for what is going on than do people living in the Zone or on big American military bases. In the area of Baghdad I stayed in, I constantly heard gunfire and explosions. Yet an American colonel told me that my neighborhood was deemed "secure." I think that really meant that U.S. troops could drive through it while heavily armed--say, with a .50 caliber machine gun atop a Humvee--and usually not be attacked.

I worry that what the Americans measure are threats to U.S. troops and the killings of Iraqis. That neglects a huge spectrum of other significant activities--rapes, robberies, kidnappings, acts of extortion, and, most importantly, acts of violent intimidation.

Amazon.com: You cite many strategic errors in the planning and execution of the war, but perhaps the central one is that the U.S. military leadership failed to recognize that they were fighting an insurgency, and their methods of fighting in fact helped to create that insurgency. Can you explain those methods, and their effects?

Ricks: The U.S. military that went into Iraq in 2003 was the best military in the world for fighting another military. But it was woefully unprepared for the task at hand. For example, U.S. military culture believes in bringing overwhelming force to bear. Yet classic counterinsurgency doctrine calls for using only the minimal amount of force necessary to get the job done. U.S. soldiers and their commanders, untrained and unschooled in the difficult art of counterinsurgency, tended to improvise. So in the summer of 2003, some soldiers in Baghdad decided that the best way to deter looters was to make them cry--and they sometimes did this by threatening to shoot the children of looters, and even conducting mock executions.

More broadly, the Army in the fall of 2003 fell back on what it knew how to do, which was conduct large-scale "cordon-and-sweep" operations. These missions scarfed up thousands of Iraqis, most of them fence-sitting neutrals, and detained them. U.S. military intelligence officials later concluded that 85% of those detained were of no intelligence value. The detention experience frequently was humiliating for Iraqis, a violation of another key counterinsurgency principle: Treat your prisoners well. (Your readers who want to know more about this should read a terrific little book by David Galula titled Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice.)

Not every unit was ineffective or counterproductive. I was struck at how successful the 101st Airborne was in Mosul in 2003-04. And some units showed remarkable improvement--the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment had a mediocre first tour of duty in Iraq, but when it went back in 2005 for a second tour, it did extremely well. Col. H.R. McMaster, the regimental commander (and author of a very good book about the Vietnam War, Dereliction of Duty) told his troops that, "Every time you disrespect an Iraqi, you are working for the enemy." I was especially struck by how his regiment handled its prisoners--it even had a program called "Ask the Customer" that quizzed detainees when they were released about whether they felt treated well. This recognized the lesson of past wars that the best way to end an insurgency is to get its leaders to put down their guns and enter the political system, and to get the rank-and-file to desert or switch sides. But it will be harder to discuss the sewage system with the new mayor next year if your troops beat him in his cell when he was your prisoner last year.

Amazon.com: But today's military leadership was formed in Vietnam, when all of those lessons of counterinsurgency were supposedly learned before. Why didn't that experience translate into a preparation for the current conflict?

Ricks: Military experts, such at Andrew Krepinevich (The Army and Vietnam) and Lt. Col. John Nagl (Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife) say that after that war ended, the Army washed its hands of the entire experience and essentially concluded that it was never going to do anything like that again. It was almost as if the very word "counterinsurgency" was banned from official Army discourse.

In Iraq, there was a tiny minority of American soldiers early on who understood how to win the occupation. These generally were civil affairs officers and other Special Forces types. But their wisdom often was disregarded. "What you are seeing here is an unconventional war being fought conventionally," one Special Forces lieutenant colonel glumly commented one day in Baghdad.

Amazon.com: You've been writing about the military for the Post and the Wall Street Journal for years now, and Fiasco is built from the testimony of a remarkable array of sources up and down the chain of command, some off the record but many more on the record. Can you talk about your sources? Is this level of public criticism of a war from within the military precedented??

Ricks: Yeah, reporting the book was a pretty emotional experience. Even having covered this war as it unfolded, I was taken aback by the rage that some officers felt toward the Bush Administration, and especially toward Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. And also toward Paul Wolfowitz, who was then the no. 2 guy at the Pentagon. I think the rage is probably like what the military felt about Robert McNamara during the Vietnam War. What is unprecedented, I think, is that many officers had doubts about the wisdom of invading Iraq, especially in the way we did it.

The emotions also hit me pretty hard at times, especially when I was writing my chapter 13, about how widespread abuse was by American soldiers in 2003-04, often because they hadn't been trained for the mission they faced. I have spent more than 15 years covering the military. I tend to like and admire these people. So when I learned about a 4th Infantry Division soldier shooting an unarmed, handcuffed Iraqi detainee in the stomach, and the investigating MPs saying the soldier should be charged with homicide, and instead the commander simply discharged the soldier from the Army--well, that bothered me.

Another thing that struck me with sources was the mountain of information that was available. I read over 30,000 pages of documents for this book. At the end of one interview a guy gave me a CD-ROM with every e-mail he had sent to Ambassador Bremer, who ran the civilian end of the first year of the occupation. Other people showed me diaries, unit logs, official briefings, and such. Also the ACLU did a great job of obtaining and releasing piles of official U.S. military documents related to abuse--so I could see the time stamp on an e-mail in which an intelligence officer stated that "the gloves are coming off" in interrogations, and one soldier recommended blows to the chest while another wrote back recommending low-level electrocution.

Unfortunately the Army wouldn't release the details of citations for valorous acts by soldiers, which means that the Pentagon made it easier for me to learn about the sins of soldiers than about their acts of bravery. The Marine Corps did give me those "narratives" that support the bestowing of medals, which I really appreciated. Those documents really brought home to me the fierceness of the two Battles of Fallujah, in April and November 2004--probably the toughest fighting American troops have seen since Hue and Khe Sanh in the Vietnam War.

Amazon.com: In the last section of the book, you project a variety of possible scenarios for the next 10 years in the Middle East, mostly grim ones, and just in the past two weeks the sudden violence between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon is leading to talk of a wider regional conflict. Where do you think those events are leading us?

Ricks: We are really in unexplored territory. We are carrying out the first-ever U.S. occupation of an Arab nation. This is also almost the first time we have engaged in sustained combat ground war with an all-volunteer force. (I think the suppression of the Philippines insurrection might count as a small precedent.)

Even more significantly, I think the Bush Administration doesn't really like "stability" in the Middle East. In its view, "stability" has been the goal of previous administrations, but pursuing it led to 9/11. It is not the goal, it is the target. So they are for rolling the dice, both in Iraq and in Lebanon. I think the big worry is those wars spilling over borders. Fasten your seat belts.



From Publishers Weekly
The main points of this hard-hitting indictment of the Iraq war have been made before, but seldom with such compelling specificity. In dovetailing critiques of the civilian and military leadership, Washington Post Pentagon correspondent Ricks (Making the Corps) contends that, under Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Feith, the Pentagon concocted "the worst war plan in American history," with insufficient troops and no thought for the invasion's aftermath. Thus, an under-manned, unprepared U.S. military stood by as chaos and insurgency took root, then responded with heavy-handed tactics that brutalized and alienated Iraqis. Based on extensive interviews with American soldiers and officers as well as first-hand reportage, Ricks's detailed, unsparing account of the occupation paints a woeful panorama of reckless firepower, mass arrests, humiliating home invasions, hostage-taking and abuse of detainees. It holds individual commanders to account, from top generals Tommy Franks and Ricardo Sanchez on down. The author's conviction that a proper hearts-and-minds counter-insurgency strategy might have salvaged the debacle is perhaps naive, and pays too little heed to the intractable ethnic conflicts underlying what is by now a full-blown civil war. Still, Ricks's solid reporting, deep knowledge of the American military and willingness to name names make this perhaps the most complete, incisive analysis yet of the Iraq quagmire.

Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-21-2006, 09:14 PM
Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq

Well, it only took W*GS three years to see this eventuality, but better late than never, I guess. :D

BTW, where are all the right-wing books trumpeting Iraq as a huge success?

I'm surprised the she-male isn't working on this.

W*GS
08-22-2006, 10:42 AM
Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq

Well, it only took W*GS three years to see this eventuality, but better late than never, I guess.

You haven't been paying attention - but that's not surprising, considering your bitter anger towards me - it clouds your judgement.

bendog
08-22-2006, 02:52 PM
Suuuprahsize Suuuprahsize Suuuprahsize

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060822/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/marines_call_up

bendog
08-22-2006, 04:12 PM
However, there is postive news. I also heard this on npr this am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060822/ts_nm/iraq_dc_1