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footstepsfrom#27
08-15-2006, 11:52 PM
Hearing this guy lionized as a cross between Woodward and Bernstein and Mother Teresa...here's a dissenting voice. When Chris Suellentropp (Wired, Washinton Post, New York Observer, Slate.com...) personally interviewed Hersh he admitted that he lies about things he says but denies bending the truth when he puts his by-line on something he writes. Apparently Suellentropp should have asked him a few more questions...

The Cult of Seymour Hersh

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2004/070004.htm

Rael Jean Isaac - American Spectator- July/August 2004

Character assassination. A simplistic moral universe in which the U.S. is the villain and Israel the only country yet more villainous. Anonymous sources that cannot be checked. Dark charges based on a crazy patchwork of suppositions. Far-out conspiracy theories. Con men as sources. Reputable sources misquoted. These constitute the decades-long MO of Seymour Hersh, the man now serving as star investigative reporter of the New Yorker.

Donald Rumsfeld is the target of Hersh's most recent venture into character assassination. In the New Yorker of May 24, 2004 Hersh seeks to pin the abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghraib directly on the Defense Secretary. Typical of Hersh, there is a lot more charge than substance. Supposedly, Rumsfeld approved a secret Pentagon program that "encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners" and then, along with Stephen Cambone, Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, expanded the scope of the program "bringing its unconventional methods to Abu Ghraib."

Had Rumsfeld endorsed "sexual humiliation" of prisoners? Does the secret program Hersh describes exist at all? The Pentagon promptly declared the article's charges "outlandish, conspiratorial and filled with error and anonymous conjecture." Given that Hersh's sources are anonymous (a "former high level intelligence official" here, a "Pentagon consultant" there), what he says is impossible to evaluate. But given Hersh's track record, the highest order of skepticism is warranted.

Did Hersh think his article could unseat the Defense Secretary? He has had success in this line before. In March 2003 Richard Perle resigned as chairman of the Defense Policy Board after a firestorm of publicity concerning supposed ethics violations which Hersh had launched in The New Yorker. Again, the article was short on facts, long on sinister speculation. Indeed its only substantive "fact" was that Perle met with two Saudi businessmen to discuss Iraq: Adnan Kashoggi, the longtime arms dealer and middleman, and Iraqi born Harb Saleh al-Zuhair. Kashoggi had arranged the meeting at the request of al-Zuhair, who claimed to have come from Iraq with a negotiating offer from Saddam. All three agree that the only topic discussed at the meeting was Iraq.

This did not stop Hersh from declaring that Perle's "real" motive in meeting with the two Saudis was to obtain investment in Trireme, a venture capital company focusing on technology, goods and services useful for homeland security, in which Perle is a partner. Hersh suggests Perle's hawkishness on Iraq stemmed from his business interests. Hersh writes: "'If there is no war, he [Kashoggi] told me, 'why is there a need for security?'" Apparently Kashoggi had never heard of 9/11. Hersh hauls in Saudi Prince Bandar who had nothing to do with the meeting but states flatly: "I believe the Iraqi events are irrelevant. A business meeting took place."

Like previous (and subsequent) victims, Perle could only explode in unavailing wrath. Asked what element of Hersh's story was true, Perle told the New York Sun, "It's all lies from beginning to end." On CNN Perle called Hersh "the closest thing American journalism has to a terrorist." A few years earlier, The New Yorker (May 22, 2000) devoted almost its entire issue to a Hersh story that rehashed ten year old allegations (exhaustively investigated by the army and found to be without merit) that during the first Gulf War General Barry McCaffrey had commanded troops who opened fire on unarmed Iraqis. Defending himself in the Wall Street Journal, McCaffrey wrote that Hersh had told people he had contacted that he intended "to bury" McCaffrey. But McCaffrey, like Perle, ran into the problem that self-defense inevitably sounds self-serving.

Hersh's most unforgivable exercise in character assassination was in his 1983 anti-Kissinger book The Price of Power. While the book was intended to be a hatchet job on Kissinger (who called Hersh's allegations about him "slimy lies"), the chief victim turned out to be India's former Prime Minister Morarji Desai. Hersh quoted anonymous intelligence officials "recalling" Desai had been paid $20,000 yearly as a CIA informer during the Johnson administration. Desai, 87 years old, reacted in outrage, calling it a "sheer mad story" and brought a libel suit seeking $50 million in damages. By the time the suit went to a Chicago jury in 1989, Desai was 93 and too ill to come to the US. Kissinger testified on Desai's behalf, flatly contradicting Hersh's report in the book that he had been delighted to have someone of Desai's stature on the payroll and had playfully chastised CIA officials elsewhere for failing to recruit Cabinet-level informers. He also testified that to his knowledge Desai had no connection to the CIA and that former CIA director Richard Helms had told him he would be on "safe ground" in testifying that Desai was not a paid CIA informant.

Nonetheless Desai lost. He could not prove that no one in the CIA had told Hersh that he was on the payroll because the judge ruled that Hersh need not identify his sources and Desai's attorney was prevented from questioning anyone in the CIA's employ. Hersh never even took the stand. Hersh's lawyer announced that the outcome proved "that even a person as prominent as Morarji Desai cannot intimidate an American journalist entitled to his First Amendment protections." What the case really showed was that as long as he did not need to reveal his sources, an irresponsible journalist could label any public figure a CIA agent with impunity.

Who are Hersh's sources? Much of the time, given his massive use of unnamed individuals, it is impossible to say. Are they reputable people? Disgruntled individuals with an axe to grind? Figments of his imagination? Who knows? However, when Hersh does identify his sources they can be evaluated and he has a record of being taken in by conmen. ("Wanting to believe" is perhaps more accurate than "taken in"- conmen provide the sensational material on which Hersh thrives.) Hersh's The Samson Option (1991) rests squarely on the fantasies of one Ari Ben Menashe. The theme of the book is that Israel, impelled by the megalomania of its leaders, built the Bomb, deceiving the United States (with the help of disloyal Jews) until the wicked deed was done. But apart from the conspiratorial anti-Semitic tone of the book, it had nothing to offer that was not already well-established - except for the "revelations" of Ben Menashe. Hersh identifies him as a former Israeli intelligence expert who served as adviser to Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir on intelligence affairs (both untrue). Among Ben Menashe's more sensational revelations, Hersh reports that Prime Minister Shamir personally authorized purloined U.S. intelligence obtained through Jonathan Pollard to be "sanitized, retyped and turned over to Soviet intelligence officials" as part of Israel's ongoing exchange of intelligence with the Soviets on U.S. weapons systems. (How this squares with another of Ben Menashe's "disclosures," that Israel was using its stolen U.S. intelligence to target the Soviet Union which "was always Israel's primary nuclear target" is not explained.) *See J4JP Note below.

In fact Ben Menashe is a notorious tale-spinner who currently, in a scenario beyond the imagination of the most far-out screenwriter, serves as chief witness in Robert Mugabe's farcical treason trial of the leader of the chief opposition party in Zimbabwe. Among fantasies too numerous to count (he was Israel's top spy, a commander of the Entebbe operation, planted a homing device in the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, declined an offer to become head of the Mossad) Ben Menashe claimed to have been with the first George Bush in Paris in October 1980 arranging for Iran to hold the hostages until after the Presidential election - this on dates when Secret Service logs show Bush engaged in a large number of appearances in the United States.) Newsweek's John Barry, who looked into Ben Menashe's claims, declared on CNN "If you were talking about the American civil war, he would tell you he was the guy who planned Lee's campaign."

Terrorism expert Steven Emerson, who described all this and more in a 1991 op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, reports that Hersh was warned in advance about Ben Menashe but refused to listen. Emerson himself warned him. Hersh was also warned by Peter Hounam, the chief investigative reporter for the London Sunday Times "Insight" team who had broken the story of the Vanunu affair, with documentation on Israel's Dimona reactor. Ben Menashe had claimed a leading role in luring Vanunu back to Israel and Hounam offered to let Hersh go through his personal files on the Vanunu affair which showed that none of Ben Menashe's claims held up. Hersh was not interested. (Much later even Hersh would admit that Ben Menashe "lies like people breathe.")

It turned out that Hersh was doubly conned. Emerson writes that after Ben Menashe was publicly exposed, Hersh issued a six page statement insisting he had "documentation" from "a private detective" confirming part of Ben Menashe's story. A few days later the Sunday Times revealed the "private detective" was actually Joe Flynn, a well known British hoaxer, who admitted he had deceived Hersh for money (almost 1300 English pounds delivered by Hersh's British publisher). "I am a conman," Flynn told the Times.

But Hersh's best-known romance with a conman came several years later, when he was working on a Kennedy book eventually published in 1997 as The Dark Side of Camelot. Hersh fell for a stash of phony documents peddled by one Lawrence S. Cusack (who went to prison in 1999 for defrauding more than 100 investors of $7 million in a scheme to sell them). Hersh assiduously wooed Cusack who claimed to have found in the files of his late father, a prominent lawyer, papers that included a contract in which Marilyn Monroe promised to keep silent about their affair in return for $600,000 and documentation linking Kennedy directly to mobster Sam Giancana. Amusingly, in one of his letters to Cusack Hersh wrote "We got along so well at that dinner Tuesday night because, I like to think, we are all what we seem to be." Again, there was the same pattern of refusing to credit the warning signs, however glaring. In National Review, journalist John Miller observed that Hersh came up "with desperate rationalizations for skeptics who wondered why documents containing ZIP codes were dated before ZIP codes even existed."

While Hersh pulled down a huge contract with ABC for a Kennedy documentary based on the documents, it fell apart when ABC concluded they were phony. In 1999 Hersh wound up on the stand as a prosecution witness and had to undergo a highly embarrassing three hour grilling by Cusack's lawyer. Hersh was asked to explain a letter he had sent to Cusack claiming he had not only independently confirmed that Cusack's father had known Kennedy through an interview with Kennedy's secretary Evelyn Lincoln, but had also "independently confirmed some of the most interesting materials" in the papers. "Here is where I absolutely misstated things" an embarrassed Hersh testified. (Hersh has a pattern of claiming to "corroborate" material that defies corroboration. In The Samson Option he says that "Ben Menashe's account might seem almost too startling to be believed, had it not been subsequently amplified by a second Israeli, who cannot be named.")

Cusack was exposed in time to spare Hersh the embarrassment of basing yet another book on the breathless recitation of a conman's revelations. Instead Hersh provided what long-time Kennedy associate Theodore Sorenson described as "a pathetic collection of wild stories." Even Thomas Powers, a friendly reviewer in The New York Times, described The Dark Side of Camelot as a "file cabinet," holding up "in strict chronological order just about every report, claim, rumor or telltale clue" of everything the Kennedys and their friends would wish to keep secret. Notice the absence of the word "fact" in this list of the file cabinet's contents.

The Dark Side of Camelot illustrates something else about Hersh's use of sources: reputable sources tend to be misquoted or selectively expurgated if they do not forward Hersh's personal agenda. The book claimed that Ted Kennedy paid off county chairmen in the West Virginia primary, among them Charles Peters, now publisher of Washington Monthly. Barbara Comstock, in National Review online, writes that Peters says Hersh interviewed him five times but simply ignored his claims that the payoffs did not happen. In The Samson Option Hersh cites Israeli scientist and government adviser Yuval Ne'eman as having told him that in the Yom Kippur War of 1973 Israel went on nuclear alert twice. I asked Ne'eman about this in 1992, not long after the book was published. Ne'eman said he had spoken to Hersh and told him the United States - not Israel - went on nuclear alert twice during that war. Also in The Samson Option Hersh repeatedly cites former Israeli Defense Forces major Seth Mintz as source for the charge that Israel deliberately sank the USS Liberty during the 1967 war. On the contrary, Mintz says that the Israelis concluded the Liberty was an enemy ship masquerading as an American vessel after the U.S. embassy, twice queried, denied there was any American ship in the area.

Columnist John Lofton quotes Hersh in a 1984 interview with the University of Chicago magazine: "I'm not interested in history because I'm trying to change things." This may explain Hersh's contempt for mere historical truth. In The Samson Option Hersh writes that the famed U.S. airlift to Israel during the Yom Kippur War was only undertaken because Israel blackmailed President Nixon, threatening to use its atomic arsenal if supplies were not sent immediately. There is no evidence for this and Hersh does not even pretend to offer any. Veteran foreign correspondent Russ Braley wrote to Richard Nixon in retirement and asked if there was any truth in what Hersh wrote. In a letter dated January 22, 1992 Nixon replied: "The story has no foundation whatever." In the Nov. 12, 2001 New Yorker Hersh described an October 20 raid on Taliban leader Mullah Omar's compound as "a near disaster," claiming twelve special forces were injured, three seriously. Gen. Tommy Franks said no one was wounded. Hersh claimed 16 AC-130 planes were used in the mission. The Air Force only has 21 and the large, heavily armed planes are not flown in groups. Journalist John Miller challenged Hersh: "Would 16 of them lead a relatively small special-forces operation in Afghanistan?" Undisturbed, Hersh said he might have "misheard."

In his 1986 book The Target is Destroyed, on the Soviet downing of Korean civilian airliner KAL 007, Hersh gets the entire story wrong. His thesis is that the Soviets had made an honest mistake, confusing the Boeing 747 with the RC-135, a U.S. reconnaissance aircraft. U.S. officials "rushed to judgment" because "strong hostility to communism had led them to misread the intelligence." The "real story," said Hersh, was not the fate of the plane but the "politically corrupt" use of intelligence by the U.S. In 1991 Izvestiya took advantage of its new freedom to investigate the case and interviewed Lt. Col. Gennadi Osipovich, the Soviet fighter pilot who shot down KAL 007. Osipovich said that he had been ordered to state on television that the Boeing had been flying with its lights out, and that it ignored warning tracer shots and a radio message before he destroyed it, all of which was untrue. He also indignantly rejected the suggestion that he had mistaken the plane for an RC-135. To be sure, Hersh could not have obtained the true story in 1984. But if his anti-American ideological blinkers had not been firmly in place, he would have been less confident in his simplistic thesis that bad American anti-Communism led to the U.S. "lying" about the incident, misrepresenting an innocent, if tragic, Soviet mistake.

In an interview with The Progressive Hersh declared that "If the standard for being fired was being wrong on a story, I would have been fired long ago." And that is the real question: why has Hersh, who should long since have been banished to supermarket tabloids, instead attained what People magazine, in a fawning piece, called "a kind of mythic status as a journalist." The answer clearly lies in Hersh's long history of visceral anti-Americanism, which resonates with the journalistic elite. Hersh is a product of the "Movement" of the 1960s, which saw the American government as the focus of world evil. Hersh had his start with Dispatch News Service, a Movement outfit founded in 1969 as an "alternative" news agency to disseminate anti-Vietnam war stories to the mainstream press. A source called Hersh with a tip on what became known as the My Lai massacre. The army was in the process of court-martialing Lt. William Calley and investigating 36 others for their part in the shootings of civilians, and Hersh pursued the story, which Dispatch then distributed. Typically, Hersh insisted that My Lai was not an isolated instance: the true villain, he wrote, was "the Army as an institution."

My Lai turned Hersh overnight into what A.M. Rosenthal, then New York Times managing editor, called "the hottest piece of journalistic property in the United States." The Times hired him and he remained there from 1972 to1979. He wrote a series of stories attacking the CIA for covert actions abroad and for spying on domestic groups (the material, which had been assembled by the CIA itself and turned over to the Congressional committee with oversight of the CIA, was leaked to Hersh by CIA head William Colby). In the anti-establishment atmosphere of the period, Hersh's stories had a major impact, playing an important role in launching Congressional investigations by both houses of Congress into the CIA. The upshot of the "reforms" Congress enacted was to seriously compromise our intelligence capabilities, setting up a firewall between the FBI and CIA, the piper being paid on 9/11. It is significant that Rosenthal would say that a number of Hersh's stories would not have been publishable under the standards he demanded of Times reporters a few years later.

...continued...

footstepsfrom#27
08-15-2006, 11:53 PM
...continued from above...

In 1979, his last year at the Times, Hersh went to Vietnam, one of a few selected American journalists the Communists permitted entry. He wrote a series of six articles in which he exhibited none of the critical zeal with which he challenged U.S. government claims. Hersh reported that the boat people were those who had cooperated with the Americans during the war and could not acclimatize; the New Economic Zones were cultural and social success stories (they were actually concentration camps for political undesirables); the "reeducation camps," what they purported to be and not the brutal places they in fact were.

Hersh is an ideological yellow journalist. With his tenacity, lack of scruples, narrow vision and white hats versus black hats view of the world, he might have been a successful police reporter - particularly in the earlier journalistic world of Chicago (Hersh's home town) described by Ben Hecht, where letting the facts interfere with a sensational story was a mark against you. But Hersh is unable to handle complicated material, unable to understand or analyze policy issues. He never seems to have heard of standards of evidence. Unable or unwilling to sift out the wildest, most absurd allegations, he tosses them into the pot, as long as they contribute to his being able to say "the target is destroyed."

The real issue is not Hersh but his standing among journalists. Hersh has won over a dozen major journalism awards, including the Pulitzer Prize, the National Book Critics Circle Award, four George Polk awards, and this year's National Magazine Award.. How could such dreadful stuff be so well rewarded? There is no worse indictment of the shoddy standards of American journalism and the political bias of its elite than the flood of awards its standard bearers have bestowed on Seymour Hersh.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*J4JP: The information Israel received from Jonathan dealt with unconventional weapons of war being manufactured neighboring Arab States for use against Israel and upcoming terrorist attacks against civilian targets in Israel. This information was not in any way related to "U.S. weapons systems." as Hersh claims. It is part of the documented record that Jonathan refused to pass to Israel any information about the United States, even though he came under heavy pressure by his handlers to do so.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-16-2006, 12:46 AM
Is "Rael Jean Isaac" one of mAnn Coulter's psuedonyms or pen names?

The similarities of style and ideological slant are immediately obvious.

epicSocialism4tw
08-16-2006, 01:15 AM
The news media at large is a joke. How anyone couldnt have figured that out by now is beyond me. Ostrich Syndrome maybe?

It only makes sense that they would decorate their supreme propagandist with awards.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-16-2006, 01:20 AM
The news media at large is a joke. How anyone couldnt have figured that out by now is beyond me. Ostrich Syndrome maybe?

It only makes sense that they would decorate their supreme propagandist with awards.

:laugh:

Gotta chuckle at how anything that debunks your nutty "boy in the bubble" worldview is "propaganda."

(But what more can we expect from a guy who believes the earth is only 6,000 years old and stuff like that?) LOL ROFL!

epicSocialism4tw
08-16-2006, 01:30 AM
:laugh:
Gotta chuckle at how anything that debunks your nutty "boy in the bubble" worldview is "propaganda."
(But what more can we expect from a guy who believes the earth is only 6,000 years old and stuff like that?) LOL ROFL!


You sure have me pegged, LA! ::)

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2006, 06:30 AM
Is "Rael Jean Isaac" one of mAnn Coulter's psuedonyms or pen names?

The similarities of style and ideological slant are immediately obvious.
Isn't that what you call "attacking the messenger?"

Rohirrim
08-16-2006, 06:57 AM
The real issue is not Hersh but his standing among journalists. Hersh has won over a dozen major journalism awards, including the Pulitzer Prize, the National Book Critics Circle Award, four George Polk awards, and this year's National Magazine Award.. How could such dreadful stuff be so well rewarded? There is no worse indictment of the shoddy standards of American journalism and the political bias of its elite than the flood of awards its standard bearers have bestowed on Seymour Hersh.

Like my mom used to say, "Yeah, you're right, and the world's all wrong." So, what we have here is the most decorated journalist in modern times vs. another tool of Richard Scaife.

Who to believe... hmmm

BroncoBuff
08-16-2006, 06:58 AM
That's a very old article ... Hersh's new article is really the topic of the day.

I admit I seriously doubt that Rumsfeld ever "endorsed" sexual humiliation of prisoners, (it seems clear these were just rogue, unsupervised a&&holes). However, Rumsfeld's failure to properly staff the invasion/occupation force was a contributing factor to these abuses.

But I found Rumsfeld's public identification of the name and unit of the soldier who confidentially blew the whistle on the Abu Ghraib abuses to be the most slimy, filthy, nauseating trick I've ever seen.

bendog
08-16-2006, 07:52 AM
You don't think von Rummy agreed that prisoners in Iraq would not be subject to the geneva convention?

alkemical
08-16-2006, 07:56 AM
See, this is why argument and knowledge from authority is Baahaaahaaad. (i tried to make that sound like a sheep).

For every 'authority' you have, there is an equal authority or item you can undermine that authority.

Since we humans are too stoopid to realize that we shouldn't take ourselves or our species seriously - we are bound to get mad over the dumbest **** that doesn't even matter.

Now - how's that for getting off point, after making a valid point to begin with.

;)

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2006, 08:38 AM
:thumbs: The real issue is not Hersh but his standing among journalists. Hersh has won over a dozen major journalism awards, including the Pulitzer Prize, the National Book Critics Circle Award, four George Polk awards, and this year's National Magazine Award.. How could such dreadful stuff be so well rewarded? There is no worse indictment of the shoddy standards of American journalism and the political bias of its elite than the flood of awards its standard bearers have bestowed on Seymour Hersh.

Like my mom used to say, "Yeah, you're right, and the world's all wrong." So, what we have here is the most decorated journalist in modern times vs. another tool of Richard Scaife.

Who to believe... hmmm
I've questioned his credibility based on the 6 facts you have not even bothered to dispute until this point; Hersh... 1) cites anonomous sources that cannot be verified, 2) cites no actual evidence that he can produce in terms of documentation, 3) has a long history of controvercy surrounding his truthfullness, 4) openly admitted to another writer that he lies when he feels it serves a greater good, 5) has been caught lying on video and asked to retract his statement, 6) has been cited by his emplooyer for lying in the paper he wrote for and was forced to print a huge retraction, 6) has an admittedly huge political bias

Can you prove any of these things wrong or not...yes...or no. It's a simple question.

I've already been told by LABF that indicting the credibility of the messenger without addressing the facts of the issues written about is bogus and smacks of the tactics of the right. I submit that both sides do this when it's convenient, which you're currently proving. I've suggested that it's fair to ask if bias exists and to what extent, which is what I've done here. I haven't even said that his information is wrong....it may not be. But you and the rest of the left simply accept it at face value w/o asking the hard questions. Bottom line...you have not addressed the issue at hand, whether he's credible or not and whether his history demands skepticism or blind loyalty to party ideology.

BTW...for those who don't know...the Pulitzer is an award given by Columbia University, one of the most liberal universities in the country and is judged by a panel of other journalists. Our resident organic gardener tried to pimp his buddy Seymour for 3 instead of the one he won till he got called on it...maybe Hersh told him that when he "interviewed" him...LOL..or perhaps he's adopting his hero's modus operandi in handling the truth. Search here: http://www.pulitzer.org/Archive/archive.html for past Pulitzer winners and you'll note that the overwhelming majority of winners in investigative reporting or other places where politics can enter the picture are far left of center based on the content of their works. Most other journalistic awards are also highly political...because the field is dominated by leftists. I don't care how many awards he's won if he has a history of making things up and admits that he lies when it suits him. His credibility is a huge issue and a perfectly legitimate one to bring up.

Prove he's credible by offering proof that the allegations presented are false if you can. If not, I submit I've got the right to call that credibility into question until he's able to produce actual evidence or cite something other than anonomous sources, mystery tattle tales, vague references to questionable connections and the fact that he's "an insider" because "people trust him".

I don't...but then I'm not a blind idealogue...I question BOTH the left and the right because both have proven they'll lie by their past history.

bendog
08-16-2006, 09:17 AM
yeah, he really missed on abdul grab.

hint, it's the message not the messenger. If you doubt Bushii knew Israel planned an attack months ago, and was waiting for an excuse, and it you doubt the neocons, including bushii, in the administration didn't think the IDF would smash hezbollah, and IN PART this was a proxy war in their desire to attack Iran, you aren't paying attention.

Rohirrim
08-16-2006, 09:32 AM
:thumbs:
I've questioned his credibility based on the 6 facts you have not even bothered to dispute until this point; Hersh... 1) cites anonomous sources that cannot be verified, 2) cites no actual evidence that he can produce in terms of documentation, 3) has a long history of controvercy surrounding his truthfullness, 4) openly admitted to another writer that he lies when he feels it serves a greater good, 5) has been caught lying on video and asked to retract his statement, 6) has been cited by his emplooyer for lying in the paper he wrote for and was forced to print a huge retraction, 6) has an admittedly huge political bias

Can you prove any of these things wrong or not...yes...or no. It's a simple question.

I've already been told by LABF that indicting the credibility of the messenger without addressing the facts of the issues written about is bogus and smacks of the tactics of the right. I submit that both sides do this when it's convenient, which you're currently proving. I've suggested that it's fair to ask if bias exists and to what extent, which is what I've done here. I haven't even said that his information is wrong....it may not be. But you and the rest of the left simply accept it at face value w/o asking the hard questions. Bottom line...you have not addressed the issue at hand, whether he's credible or not and whether his history demands skepticism or blind loyalty to party ideology.

BTW...for those who don't know...the Pulitzer is an award given by Columbia University, one of the most liberal universities in the country and is judged by a panel of other journalists. Our resident organic gardener tried to pimp his buddy Seymour for 3 instead of the one he won till he got called on it...maybe Hersh told him that when he "interviewed" him...LOL..or perhaps he's adopting his hero's modus operandi in handling the truth. Search here: http://www.pulitzer.org/Archive/archive.html for past Pulitzer winners and you'll note that the overwhelming majority of winners in investigative reporting or other places where politics can enter the picture are far left of center based on the content of their works. Most other journalistic awards are also highly political...because the field is dominated by leftists. I don't care how many awards he's won if he has a history of making things up and admits that he lies when it suits him. His credibility is a huge issue and a perfectly legitimate one to bring up.

Prove he's credible by offering proof that the allegations presented are false if you can. If not, I submit I've got the right to call that credibility into question until he's able to produce actual evidence or cite something other than anonomous sources, mystery tattle tales, vague references to questionable connections and the fact that he's "an insider" because "people trust him".

I don't...but then I'm not a blind idealogue...I question BOTH the left and the right because both have proven they'll lie by their past history.

Prove it yourself, if you're so worked up over it. I've been reading Hersh's stuff for years. I've also been watching the Right wing for years. I've been watching them launch smear campaigns against everybody who has the temerity to question them. Now you bring a woman out who's on the payroll of Richard Scaife, the man who single-handedly drove the impeachment of Bill Clinton beyond all rhyme and reason, and far beyond what was good for this country, and you want me to waste a few hours defending Hersh against these slurs? Right. I believe in the freedom of the press. I know that you guys on the Right would love to shut the press up, but for a little while at least, you'll have to put up with it. I'm sure the time will come when the Right will have the political power to take guys like Hersh down into some basement somewhere and give him a good, fascist working over, but that day hasn't come yet. If Hersh was lying about the intentions of Bush to invade Iran, then this issue wouldn't have exploded all over Washington. They would have simply laughed it off. What they didn't want is some press guy spilling the beans to the American public. The last thing the Bush administration wants is the American people to know what they're up to before they have a chance to "jump start the propaganda" so to speak.

I suppose next you'll want me to prove that Clinton wasn't gay because Coulter says he is? ;D

bendog
08-16-2006, 09:45 AM
It's like these guys are in groundhog day II. Amazing.

mhgaffney
08-16-2006, 10:16 AM
The Cult of Seymour Hersh

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2004/070004.htm

Rael Jean Isaac - American Spectator- July/August 2004


You'll notice this attack on Hersh is posted on the Jonathan Pollard web site -- surely no coincidence. Pollard was a spy for Israel who gave away sensitive US intelligence such as US nuclear targeting info re the Soviet Union -- and much more. In fact, this is obviously the reason for this article. It's a vendatta against Hersh, who detailed the whole sick story of Pollard's spying activities in the final chapter of his 1991 book THE SAMSON OPTION.

It's a compelling read -- and also relevant to the Lebanon war. Because, as it happened, Pollard, who worked for the US Navy, also passed on top secret satellite intel about the Syrian military in the weeks before Israel's disastrous 1982 invasion of Lebanon.

Later, according to Hersh, Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir passed on some of the sensitive intel to the Soviet Union. This was our ally Israel.

Pollard was arrested, coinvicted for treason, and s currently rotting in a US prison where he belongs. Yet, the rabid pro Israel apparatchiks continue to seek ways to spring him -- whence he will no doubt return to Israel to a hero's welcome.

Does Footsteps realize he has made himself a mouthpiece for these traitors? Someone should ask him.
MG

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2006, 11:17 AM
hint, it's the message not the messenger
The validity of the message is usually dependent on the credibility of the messenger, and when said messenger refuses to offer supporting evidence, it's doubly so.

bendog
08-16-2006, 11:26 AM
The validity of the message is usually dependent on the credibility of the messenger, and when said messenger refuses to offer supporting evidence, it's doubly so.
Well, he's been right on abdul grab from the git go. And, again, if you don't think bushii and co had advance knowledge and that the IDF had planned this for a long time, and that bushii and co didn't view this as part of an overall neocon military confrontation of Iran, with no political solution beyond military victory, you haven't been paying attention.

Rohirrim
08-16-2006, 11:31 AM
The validity of the message is usually dependent on the credibility of the messenger, and when said messenger refuses to offer supporting evidence, it's doubly so.

Really? Perhaps we might also want to consider the message:

Nonetheless, some officers serving with the Joint Chiefs of Staff remain deeply concerned that the Administration will have a far more positive assessment of the air campaign than they should, the former senior intelligence official said. “There is no way that Rumsfeld and Cheney will draw the right conclusion about this,” he said. “When the smoke clears, they’ll say it was a success, and they’ll draw reinforcement for their plan to attack Iran.”
---------------------------------------------------

. “Strategic bombing has been a failed military concept for ninety years, and yet air forces all over the world keep on doing it,” John Arquilla, a defense analyst at the Naval Postgraduate School, told me. Arquilla has been campaigning for more than a decade, with growing success, to change the way America fights terrorism. “The warfare of today is not mass on mass,” he said. “You have to hunt like a network to defeat a network. Israel focussed on bombing against Hezbollah, and, when that did not work, it became more aggressive on the ground. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result

Also, your statement above is ridiculous on its face when you consider that the article you posted above is published in the American Spectator, funded by R. Scaife, and posted on a Pollard website. Talk about messenger credibility.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2006, 11:46 AM
Prove it yourself, if you're so worked up over it.
That's what I thought...no answer for the allegations.
I've been reading Hersh's stuff for years.
It shows. It's apparent you can't bring yourself to ask whether he's truthful or not because he's in your political camp...the very definition of blind political ideology.
I've also been watching the Right wing for years. I've been watching them launch smear campaigns against everybody who has the temerity to question them.
Couldn't agree more...and the left does the same thing...which is why I've attacked them both with regularity. I guess you missed the part where the ACLU and the New York Times had him retract things he said through them...
Now you bring a woman out who's on the payroll of Richard Scaife, the man who single-handedly drove the impeachment of Bill Clinton beyond all rhyme and reason, and far beyond what was good for this country, and you want me to waste a few hours defending Hersh against these slurs?
You must be on dial up. Are the NY Times and the ACLU also on some conservative's payroll? I think not. I thought "attack the messenger" was supposed to be the exclusive sin of the right...no?
Right. I believe in the freedom of the press. I know that you guys on the Right would love to shut the press up, but for a little while at least, you'll have to put up with it.
I believe in the RESPONSIBLE freedom of the press, meaning that truth is backed up by evidence and proof, something Hersh flatly ignores.

What gave you the notion I'm on the right? Surely not the scores of scathing rebukes of the Bush administration I've posted in here...or the information I've posted from personal knowledge that indicts him on things that never made the press...nor the rebuke of corporate evil doers screwing middle class America...my support for civil rights organizations maybe? My suspicons about the official 911 story...obviously not my nuclear meltdown over Katrina and the way Bush & Co. handled that either...support for raising the minimum wage and responsible use of the environment and attention to global warming? Pay attention...I've specifically stated numerous times I dislike both sides. The trouble with you blind idealogues is you think everyone else outsources their right to think independently just because you do.
I'm sure the time will come when the Right will have the political power to take guys like Hersh down into some basement somewhere and give him a good, fascist working over, but that day hasn't come yet. If Hersh was lying about the intentions of Bush to invade Iran, then this issue wouldn't have exploded all over Washington.
Is that why the ACLU removed his speech from their website after it also exploded around the world...because it was true? He's already admitted it wasn't so your suggestion that the number of people who believe something indicates it's truthfulness is nonsense.
I suppose next you'll want me to prove that Clinton wasn't gay because Coulter says he is? ;D
Can you do that? :giggle:

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2006, 11:53 AM
Really? Perhaps we might also want to consider the message:

Nonetheless, some officers serving with the Joint Chiefs of Staff remain deeply concerned that the Administration will have a far more positive assessment of the air campaign than they should, the former senior intelligence official said. “There is no way that Rumsfeld and Cheney will draw the right conclusion about this,” he said. “When the smoke clears, they’ll say it was a success, and they’ll draw reinforcement for their plan to attack Iran.”
---------------------------------------------------

. “Strategic bombing has been a failed military concept for ninety years, and yet air forces all over the world keep on doing it,” John Arquilla, a defense analyst at the Naval Postgraduate School, told me. Arquilla has been campaigning for more than a decade, with growing success, to change the way America fights terrorism. “The warfare of today is not mass on mass,” he said. “You have to hunt like a network to defeat a network. Israel focussed on bombing against Hezbollah, and, when that did not work, it became more aggressive on the ground. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result
What's that got to do with whether Seymour Hersh is credible?
[quote]Also, your statement above is ridiculous on its face when you consider that the article you posted above is published in the American Spectator, funded by R. Scaife, and posted on a Pollard website. Talk about messenger credibility.
I never said that Hersh's message isn't true...because unlike you I don't pretend to know. I've stated that his credibility is suspect unless he divulges where he gets his information or produces evidence. In any case, LABF says that attacking the messenger is no longer fair game since "even a broken clock is right twice a day." Again...are the ACLU and the NY Times in league with Richard Scaife?

Hersh admits he makes things up, his former employer cited him for it, and even the ACLU had him change his story. He's in serious need of doing something to prove he's not dissreputable, if not an outright liar.

Rohirrim
08-16-2006, 11:55 AM
I'll tell you one thing that's abundantly clear: You didn't read the article. Ha!

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2006, 11:56 AM
You'll notice this attack on Hersh is posted on the Jonathan Pollard web site -- surely no coincidence. Pollard was a spy for Israel who gave away sensitive US intelligence such as US nuclear targeting info re the Soviet Union -- and much more. In fact, this is obviously the reason for this article. It's a vendatta against Hersh, who detailed the whole sick story of Pollard's spying activities in the final chapter of his 1991 book THE SAMSON OPTION.

It's a compelling read -- and also relevant to the Lebanon war. Because, as it happened, Pollard, who worked for the US Navy, also passed on top secret satellite intel about the Syrian military in the weeks before Israel's disastrous 1982 invasion of Lebanon.

Later, according to Hersh, Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir passed on some of the sensitive intel to the Soviet Union. This was our ally Israel.

Pollard was arrested, coinvicted for treason, and s currently rotting in a US prison where he belongs. Yet, the rabid pro Israel apparatchiks continue to seek ways to spring him -- whence he will no doubt return to Israel to a hero's welcome.

Does Footsteps realize he has made himself a mouthpiece for these traitors? Someone should ask him.
MG
So are you denying he was cited by the NY Times and forced to print a retraction when he wrote slanderous crap on their front page? That shouldn't be to tough to verify. Are you denying he admits to lying on the lecture circuit? Are you denying he back pedaled off his statments he made before the ACLU?

You're the only mouthpiece for traitors I see in here.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2006, 11:57 AM
I'll tell you one thing that's abundantly clear: You didn't read the article. Ha!
I read the article and watched the video.

Still waiting for an explanation on why the NY Times and ACLU made him retract information and whether you support him making things up that didn't happen...something he admits to doing.

Rohirrim
08-16-2006, 12:00 PM
[QUOTE=Rohirrim]Really? Perhaps we might also want to consider the message:

Nonetheless, some officers serving with the Joint Chiefs of Staff remain deeply concerned that the Administration will have a far more positive assessment of the air campaign than they should, the former senior intelligence official said. “There is no way that Rumsfeld and Cheney will draw the right conclusion about this,” he said. “When the smoke clears, they’ll say it was a success, and they’ll draw reinforcement for their plan to attack Iran.”
---------------------------------------------------

. “Strategic bombing has been a failed military concept for ninety years, and yet air forces all over the world keep on doing it,” John Arquilla, a defense analyst at the Naval Postgraduate School, told me. Arquilla has been campaigning for more than a decade, with growing success, to change the way America fights terrorism. “The warfare of today is not mass on mass,” he said. “You have to hunt like a network to defeat a network. Israel focussed on bombing against Hezbollah, and, when that did not work, it became more aggressive on the ground. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result
What's that got to do with whether Seymour Hersh is credible?

I never said that Hersh's message isn't true...because unlike you I don't pretend to know. I've stated that his credibility is suspect unless he divulges where he gets his information or produces evidence. In any case, LABF says that attacking the messenger is no longer fair game since "even a broken clock is right twice a day." Again...are the ACLU and the NY Times in league with Richard Scaife?

Hersh admits me makes things up, his former employer cited him for it, and even the ACLU had him change his story. He's in serious need of doing something to prove he's not dissreputable, if not an outright liar.

I'll tell you one thing, if Hersh used the names of "some officers" or "the former senior intelligence officer" his next article would be a hell of a lot shorter. I know you're just trying to be clever. It's obvious to even the biggest boob that there is no way he could get the story if he divulged his sources. It's like saying, "I won't believe what Woodward and Bernstein are saying about Nixon because they won't tell me who Deep Throat is." The story is the thing. It's a warning to the American people about what this administration is up to. If you want to ignore that for some penny ante school yard sophistry, be my guest.

defenseman
08-16-2006, 12:00 PM
Since we humans are too stoopid to realize that we shouldn't take ourselves or our species seriously - we are bound to get mad over the dumbest **** that doesn't even matter.
;)

I agree with you. Many folks take things way too serious sometimes. However, there are occassions which do arise which call out a serious approach to taking care of business, and when they do pop up, you have to prosecute them in earnest. But, you are correct, alot folks get bent out of shape over some pretty silly stuff...dman

Rohirrim
08-16-2006, 12:02 PM
I read the article and watched the video.

Still waiting for an explanation on why the NY Times and ACLU made him retract information and whether you support him making things up that didn't happen...something he admits to doing.

Yeah, perhaps you'd like to repost that quote and then we can have a poll on how many think it was tongue in cheek.

alkemical
08-16-2006, 12:25 PM
I agree with you. Many folks take things way too serious sometimes. However, there are occassions which do arise which call out a serious approach to taking care of business, and when they do pop up, you have to prosecute them in earnest. But, you are correct, alot folks get bent out of shape over some pretty silly stuff...dman


Really dman - why bother holding a grudge? 9x out of 10 you just waste what precious time we have.

mhgaffney
08-16-2006, 01:51 PM
So are you denying he was cited by the NY Times and forced to print a retraction when he wrote slanderous crap on their front page? That shouldn't be to tough to verify. Are you denying he admits to lying on the lecture circuit? Are you denying he back pedaled off his statments he made before the ACLU?

You're the only mouthpiece for traitors I see in here.

The only credibility gap is between your ears, Footsteps. Why have you allowed yourself to be a mouthpiece for Israel's spy now in US prison?

I don't have any information about any ACLU case. But that is trivial indeed compared with the Pollard case.

Are you too dumb to know the history, here? Hersh probably made mistakes on occasion, sure, everyone does. But there is no doubt about the facts in the Pollard case. I'm surprised others on this board haven't pointed this out, already. In fact, the silence in here regarding your post is not flattering to the level of this discussion.
MG

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-16-2006, 06:49 PM
I'll tell you one thing, if Hersh used the names of "some officers" or "the former senior intelligence officer" his next article would be a hell of a lot shorter. I know you're just trying to be clever. It's obvious to even the biggest boob that there is no way he could get the story if he divulged his sources. It's like saying, "I won't believe what Woodward and Bernstein are saying about Nixon because they won't tell me who Deep Throat is."

Hammer, nail, head.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-16-2006, 07:01 PM
I've already been told by LABF that indicting the credibility of the messenger without addressing the facts of the issues written about is bogus and smacks of the tactics of the right. I submit that both sides do this when it's convenient, which you're currently proving.

Trouble is, Scaife already has a long history of disseminating lies, propaganda, and disinformation through his various media enterprises.

At some point, the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome starts to kick in.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2006, 07:27 PM
[QUOTE=footstepsfrom#27]

I'll tell you one thing, if Hersh used the names of "some officers" or "the former senior intelligence officer" his next article would be a hell of a lot shorter. I know you're just trying to be clever. It's obvious to even the biggest boob that there is no way he could get the story if he divulged his sources. It's like saying, "I won't believe what Woodward and Bernstein are saying about Nixon because they won't tell me who Deep Throat is." The story is the thing. It's a warning to the American people about what this administration is up to. If you want to ignore that for some penny ante school yard sophistry, be my guest.
He not only doesn't produce sources, he also doesn't produce any evidence, making it impossible to verify anything he says. The only thing we know for sure is that we only know what Seymour Hersh wants us to know.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-16-2006, 07:39 PM
He not only doesn't produce sources, he also doesn't produce any evidence, making it impossible to verify anything he says. The only thing we know for sure is that we only know what Seymour Hersh wants us to know.

If journalists like Hersh were to exclude anonymous sources, then we'd never get any political news in this country.

Spider
08-16-2006, 08:35 PM
I never heard of either one Hersh or this Scaife , but I tell you what it doesnt take a rocket surgeon ( thanks mock ;D ) to figure out Bush and his idiot brigade is about as much use as tits on a boars ass .......

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2006, 09:46 PM
The only credibility gap is between your ears, Footsteps. Why have you allowed yourself to be a mouthpiece for Israel's spy now in US prison?
I realize you're not exactly swimming in the deep end of the intellectual gene pool, but I figured a writer might recognize something called a "byline". For future reference, here's what it looks like:

Rael Jean Isaac - American Spectator- July/August 2004

Rael Jean Issaac is the editor of the Mideast Outpost, a pro Israeli ezine that delivers it's own stories and links to other sources around the world. He has no connection with conservative billionaire ***wipe Richard Scief or Jonathan Pollard...nice attempt to deflect from the issue. Perhaps you're suggesting that every writer who ever had something published in the American Spectator is nothing but a puppet on a string without their own thoughts...fine; then let's indict every single writer in every single publication in America. I'm sure we can find some dirt under every publisher's rug in the country if we look hard enough. Let's begin with automatically dismissing anything on Ted Turner's CNN. Unless you can prove that Rael Jean Issac is somehow connected in some evil way to Jonathan Pollard, you're argument is without merit, and is absurd in the extreme. Just what I'd expect from someone who supposedly met Hersh and tried to claim he won 3 Pulitzers instead of 1 till I called you on it.
But there is no doubt about the facts in the Pollard case. I'm surprised others on this board haven't pointed this out, already. In fact, the silence in here regarding your post is not flattering to the level of this discussion.
MG
Maybe that's because, unlike you, most in here didn't hear me mention anything about Jonathan Pollard.

You all conveniently ignore the FACT that Hersh has already admitted to making things up when it strikes his fancy. He's as leftist as you can get and anybody who swallows his stuff without asking questions does so out of blind political loyalty rather than objectivity and a high regard for truth.

Nice to see you remain solidly committed to the double standard of holding conservative writers hostage to every questionable and flimsy relationship you can find but can't see the 6,000 liberal elephant taking a dump on your living room floor.

Even the mainline press has sometimems had the guts to print the truth about Hersh's tactics, including the Chicago Tribune reporting that he took 7 years to print a retraction for smearing former US Ambassador Edward M. Korry with allegations he took part in the Chilean coup in 1973. Maybe their connected with Jonathan Pollard too. Apparently Hersh tried to extort information out of him for his next book as a prerequisite to printing the retraction he owed him.

What a guy.

mhgaffney
08-16-2006, 11:06 PM
He has no connection with conservative billionaire ***wipe Richard Scief or Jonathan Pollard...nice attempt to deflect from the issue.

Maybe that's because, unlike you, most in here didn't hear me mention anything about Jonathan Pollard.
.

You didn't have to mention the spy Pollard. You drew the article from his web site! The curious need only go back and look at your original post at the top of this thread.

By promoting the material on this convicted felon's web site you make yourself a shill for the extremist element in Israel, the very ones who gave us this latest war that destroyed Lebanon in a month of calculated bombing.

These ultra Zionists put Israel before America. Pollard is a hero to them. They also hate Jews like Hersh and Chomsky who tell it like it is. Hersh and Chomsky recognize the God given rights of the Palestinians, they support the international consensus, an Israeli withdrawal of lands seized in the 1967 war, and the creation of a Palestinian state side by side Israel. That is the land for peace formula that -- even now -- could bring peace to the region.

The Pollards of the world consider this beyond the pale, however. They regard Hersh and Chomky as self haters, the lowest form of Jew.

Your promotion of Pollard's web site is an insult to every American who reads this board.

MG

epicSocialism4tw
08-16-2006, 11:24 PM
Your promotion of Pollard's web site is an insult to every American who reads this board.




No. You insult the board daily with your overtly anti-Israel and anti-American rhetoric.

By all means, move to Syria. Please.

mhgaffney
08-16-2006, 11:38 PM
No. You insult the board daily with your overtly anti-Israel and anti-American rhetoric.

By all means, move to Syria. Please.

Someone quick. Take Angry LLama aside and give him a US history lesson.

Explain to him how a US Naval intelligence agent named Jonathan Pollard broke numerous US laws passing top secret intel to the state of Israel. Angryllama, like Footsteps, evidently thinks this is normal and perfectly OK.

Aside from the fact that Pollard broke the law (and is now in a US prison where he belongs), there's another deeper question about loyalty.

If things have become so muddled that Americans can no longer tell where US interests leave off and where Israel's begin, then we are in the deepest doo doo in our history.

Not to mention the silencing of dissent and genuine patriotism with the canard of anti semitism.

Welcome to the last days of America.

MG

footstepsfrom#27
08-17-2006, 12:28 AM
You didn't have to mention the spy Pollard. You drew the article from his web site! The curious need only go back and look at your original post at the top of this thread.
If you weren't such a lazy little socialist you'd have spent 30 extra seconds and googled the article in question to check out where else it's posted. Then you'd have found out that the article was not written for Pollard's website, it was written and published first in the American Spectator, and also showed up in the writer's own ezine as well. A number of other sites picked it up and ran it, including Pollard's website. So in a nutshell, you're not just intellectually dishonest (3 Pultizers) but intellectually lazy as well. Perfect combination. I guess you're used to people buying what you're shoveling without realizing where the stench is coming from. Newsflash: if it's on the web I can find it...which means it's gonne be tough to hide stuff you don't want seen. I suggest you plug in a bit more effort before you run off at the mouth since you just got 1) called on your attempt to slip something by me and 2) caught with your pants down on this Pollard crap where you based your entire argument on a non issue and just got b****slapped in the process. BAAAHAAA! Excellent.
By promoting the material on this convicted felon's web site you make yourself a shill for the extremist element in Israel, the very ones who gave us this latest war that destroyed Lebanon in a month of calculated bombing.

These ultra Zionists put Israel before America. Pollard is a hero to them. They also hate Jews like Hersh and Chomsky who tell it like it is. Hersh and Chomsky recognize the God given rights of the Palestinians, they support the international consensus, an Israeli withdrawal of lands seized in the 1967 war, and the creation of a Palestinian state side by side Israel. That is the land for peace formula that -- even now -- could bring peace to the region.

The Pollards of the world consider this beyond the pale, however. They regard Hersh and Chomky as self haters, the lowest form of Jew.

Your promotion of Pollard's web site is an insult to every American who reads this board.

MG
Wow, it was great watching you make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already have with that diatribe...LOL Now if you can tell me that you've got some legitimate info that Rael Jean Isaac has some clandestine connection with one of your evil Jew spies or traitors that doesn't come from your Stalinist pal Seymour Hersh, I'll be more than happy to listen. Do you have such information?

Or are you just a Seymour Hersh protege with the seedy charachter issues minus the intellect?

mhgaffney
08-17-2006, 11:45 AM
Then you'd have found out that the article was not written for Pollard's website, it was written and published first in the American Spectator, and also showed up in the writer's own ezine as well.

Now if you can tell me that you've got some legitimate info that Rael Jean Isaac has some clandestine connection with one of [B]your evil Jew spies or traitors that doesn't come from your Stalinist pal Seymour Hersh, I'll be more than happy to listen. Do you have such information?



It doesn't matter where the article started or who wrote it.

It represents a point of view: paranoid, reactionary, cynical, and totally intolerant of anyone who begs to differ.

Pollard was not my spy. He was Israel's spy -- your spy -- since you promote the opinions posted on his web site. Which means you put Israel first, and the US a distant second.

You have yet to explain this. Obviously you can't because as I indicated the only gap here is the empty space between your ears.

MG

footstepsfrom#27
08-17-2006, 09:39 PM
It doesn't matter where the article started or who wrote it.
Of course it does you moron. If one of your propaganda pieces winds up on a Neo-Nazi site because they found it and placed it there, does that make you a Neo-Nazi?...wait...bad example here...
It represents a point of view: paranoid, reactionary, cynical, and totally intolerant of anyone who begs to differ.
Paranoia and cynicism are defined by the socialist organic gardener as characteristics displayed by anyone who dares challenge his heros and their hatred for the United States or Israel.
Pollard was not my spy. He was Israel's spy -- your spy -- since you promote the opinions posted on his web site. Which means you put Israel first, and the US a distant second.
Are you reallly this stupid? I guess you are. You can't grasp the fact that it's possible to challenge the opinions of the great Seymour Hersh or at least expect some evidence of his claims without being a traitor? I knew you were a nitwit, but I didn't realize the depth of your psychosis until now.
You have yet to explain this. Obviously you can't because as I indicated the only gap here is the empty space between your ears.

MG
The day you present an intellectual challenge to me numbskull is the day I'm comatose on life support or being lowered six feet under.

defenseman
08-18-2006, 09:48 AM
Really dman - why bother holding a grudge? 9x out of 10 you just waste what precious time we have.

You need to expound on this? .....What exactly are you saying?..dman

alkemical
08-18-2006, 10:25 AM
You need to expound on this? .....What exactly are you saying?..dman


Think about it small dman, and apply it to societies...

in day to day life you run into people - now you or someone you know/have known has grudged and let that grudge hinder the time you have -

apply that to conflicts between nations...

instead of 50years or whatever of war - think of all the time, lives, money resources wasted.