I'm Man Enough to Admit It ....

[BroncoBuff]

I'm MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT that I'm not entirely clear on the history, facts and circumstances surrounding the Israeli-Palestine situation (I suspect I am far from alone). Further, I grow weary of not fully understanding these important facts and circumstances, especially in light of the news of the day.

So, I'm going to state a list of 'facts,' as I understand them. I trust a well-informed member of the OrangeMane community will take the time to patiently interlineate (in BLUE or RED please) corrections, additions, etc., without leaving too great a trail of opinion PLEASE!

Here we go:

ONE - Before WWII, the area east of the Mediterranean, north of Egypt, south of Lebanon, and west of Jordan - including the "V"-shaped part of the Sinai - was UNINCORPORATED ... but loosely known as "Palestine."


TWO - Where do you "incorporate" a nation? The Hague? The United Nations? Mr. Kimball the county clerk? Where?


THREE - In the wake of WWII and the Holocaust, forces aligned to "incorporate" the nation of Israel in 1948. Israel proper includes all of this area except: a bulbous chunk of land that extends west from the River Jordan between the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee - and the Gaza Strip, a small piece of southern coastline bordering Egypt. These areas were left UNINCORPORATED. Israel's border ends at Jerusalem, but its exact placement around that city includes ...... all of it? None? Half? Israel DID/DID NOT then include the "V"-shaped eastern part of the Sinai.


FOUR - The natives in the area before 1948 - loosely called "Palestinians" - didn't hate Israel yet, but they didn't like the new state. They thought there already WERE a country - 'Palestine'. But because they never "incorporated," the rest of the world permitted Israel nationhood.


FIVE - Over time, the Israelis prospered and grew, and many of their citizens started to build homes and communities in attractive areas outside the strict borders of Israel - closer to the River Jordan, on it's "West Bank," and down the Mediterranean coastline in "The Gaza Strip."


SIX - General Moshe Dayan's Six-Day War with Egypt drove the Egyptians out of the Sinai, and back south of Gaza. Why was this war fought? (briefly please). Is this when the "V" shaped eastern part of the Sinai was made part of Israel? Or was that always part of Israel?


SEVEN - Over time, the 'Palestinians' came to resent the Settlements in the "puny" area they thought had been left to them after the 1948 birth of Israel. They have refused and still refuse to "incorporate" a nation in what's left of this region, because doing so would "concede" that the Israeli nation is, in fact, their nation. The Palestinians believe much/all of Israel should be part of "Palestine." This is why they won't "incorporate." They're "between a rock and a hard place" you might say.


EIGHT - The Palestinians' anger brewed over time, and began resulting in terrorist attacks in the 70s .... But, if Jerusalem itself is to be shared, and Palestine can have (or COULD HAVE had) the West Bank of the River Jordan, why are they so fixated on the land that is Israel proper? Why didn't they just "incorporate" before the West Bank and Gaza settlements grew so large?


NINE - The "settlements" on the West Bank and in Gaza have grown so large, that Israel now defends them as if they are part of Israel proper. They are now contructing that huge wall ... around settlements in the West Bank - not part of Israel proper ? ?


TEN - Much of the hatred of Israel in the Arab and Muslim worlds (which I read and beleive was not so huge before the settlements - in the 1950s), springs from a kind of empathy for the "Palestinians," who are Muslim and Arab.


ELEVEN - In 1982, Israel grew weary of mortars and rockets being lobbed into Israel from the high ground called The Golan Heights, an area in (S. Lebanon?) (S. Syria?). So they attacked and took over the heights from which the mortars came. The U.S. sent troops to keep the peace, and some 300(?) were killed in a suicide jeep bombing. Israel occupies the Golan Heights now - but like Gaza and the West Bank, they have not yet annexed them.


TWELVE - That huge wall around some West Bank settlements is a prelude to annexation of what's left of the settlements. The huge Israeli leader (name? in a coma now) was "withdrawing" some of the West Bank settlements as a "show" of conciliation ... but many believe they withdrew as a prelude to the formal annexation.


THIRTEEN - Cheney/Feith/Wolfowitz/Perle/Neocons are cheering the Isrealis on - because they might be planning implementation of the "Clean Break" - right after this November's elections - wherein Iran and Syria are attacked (?)



Okay - FACTS ONLY PLEASE!

And be nice.

[bendog]

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/history.html

I think most of your historical questions can be answered at this site. If you go to the home page, there's a wealth of material on the various issues and attempts at settling the issue in the post 1947 time frame.

[SteveTensi13]

I'm MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT that I'm not entirely clear on the history, facts and circumstances surrounding the Israeli-Palestine situation (I suspect I am far from alone). Further, I grow weary of not fully understanding these important facts and circumstances, especially in light of the news of the day.

So, I'm going to state a list of 'facts,' as I understand them. I trust a well-informed member of the OrangeMane community will take the time to patiently interlineate (in BLUE or RED please) corrections, additions, etc., without leaving too great a trail of opinion PLEASE!

THIRTEEN - Cheney/Feith/Wolfowitz/Perle/Neocons are cheering the Isrealis on - because they might be planning implementation of the "Clean Break" - right after this November's elections - wherein Iran and Syria are attacked (?)


Okay - FACTS ONLY PLEASE!

And be nice.


You're an idiot, stop posting. Fact.

[bendog]

You're an idiot, stop posting. Fact.
GD, do they let you have more than one bullet at a time?

[SteveTensi13]

GD, do they let you have more than one bullet at a time?

I have enough ammuniton and weapons to arm a small army!

[BroncoBuff]

The "Clean Break" doctrine is well documented, and I've listed two of its signatories ... Feith and Perle.


Why don't you just answer the facts I want to know?

[bendog]

Actually, you've listed some good questions. Why get embroiled with the villiage idiot on this. The guy's not even a neocon; he's just a .... damn, it beats me. However, I think your 'questions' regarding historical palestine and the events of .... 1500-1947 would benefit from the link.

And, Israel pulled out of Gaza. But hamas kept shooting into Israel, which is what precipted both Olmert's dive in the polls as the voters lost faith in whether pulling back would yield peace, as well as the lebanon invasion.

Additionally, as I recall, polls of the palestinians before Israel launched back into Gaza, favored negotiations and a recognizing of Israel and a peace, but I didn't bookmark what I read and have no link.

[Meck77]

I have enough ammuniton and weapons to arm a small army!


and you wonder why public opinion towards Israel is crashing down.....

[Hotrod]

You're an idiot, stop posting. Fact.

Now your just acting like a child. Seriously grow up and join an adult converstaion or go back to your crayons.

[smalltowngrll]

Keep in mind that another piece of the history here and why this land is so valued by many is because of it's religious connections. It is key to the Christian and Jewish people because it contains the Temple Mount often times referred to as the "Western Wall" or "Wailing Wall" (Where the original Temple was believed to be...The Old Testament provides the meaning and value of the Temple to the Jewish people). It is also a key to the Muslims because the Palestinians began calling it "El-Burak," after the name of Mohammed's horse that was supposedly tethered there on the prophet's legendary night ride to Jerusalem and heaven.

Another key piece of history is the 6-day war that took place in 1967. Encarta Encylopedia (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570433/Six-Day_War.html) can give you more details on that.

I'm by no means a history scholar and I don't have Every detail there is, but I've tried to follow the history on this because it really is an important battle to me! (not to lessen the value of any other battle/war...just one that intriques me because of the extensive history)

[Rohirrim]

Here’s my solution:

1. Give Syria half the Golan Heights. Tell them first, they must accept the right of Israel to exist, and second, they must stop supporting terrorists. In ten years, if the UN Security Council agrees that they have abided by these rules, they get the other half of the Heights.

2. Give the Palestinians the Gaza (administered by Egypt) and half the West Bank (administered by Jordan) until such a time as the Palestinian government can get its act together. The Palestinians must accept the right of Israel to exist and must do everything within their power to squelch terrorism within its ranks including allowing UN forces into their territories if they can’t handle the task. If, after 10 years the UN Security Council agrees that the Palestinians have met these conditions, they get the other half of the West Bank. Israel removes all settlers and puts the squelch on the settler movement.

3. Jerusalem is given the singular designation of a World City (administered by the UN) which opens up the city to unrestricted use by the three major religions whose members consider it a holy site. Disputes are resolved through the UN. Proceeds from tourism, etc. are split equally (after paying UN administrative costs) between the Palestinian state and Israel.

4. The Shebaa farms are returned to Lebanon. A multinational force is placed along the Southern border of Lebanon. All UN members pitch in (money, equipment and expert assistance) to help Lebanon quickly rebuild its infrastructure and create an army that can take over the Southern border. Hizbollah must accept Israel’s right to exist, forswear acts of terrorism and disarm or lose its charter as a political entity in Lebanon and all rights to act in any capacity within the communities or government of Lebanon, in effect becoming an outlawed organization.

5. The Iranian government is given a warning by the combined members of the UN Security Council to cease and desist any and all involvement in Lebanon with the threat of sanctions.

6. Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders. It must forswear any claims on the West Bank, Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon or Gaza. Israel also must enter into talks with a coalition of all nuclear powers to work toward the goal of nuclear disarmament.

[bendog]

Here’s my solution:

1. Give Syria half the Golan Heights. Tell them first, they must accept the right of Israel to exist, and second, they must stop supporting terrorists. In ten years, if the UN Security Council agrees that they have abided by these rules, they get the other half of the Heights.

2. Give the Palestinians the Gaza (administered by Egypt) and half the West Bank (administered by Jordan) until such a time as the Palestinian government can get its act together. The Palestinians must accept the right of Israel to exist and must do everything within their power to squelch terrorism within its ranks including allowing UN forces into their territories if they can’t handle the task. If, after 10 years the UN Security Council agrees that the Palestinians have met these conditions, they get the other half of the West Bank. Israel removes all settlers and puts the squelch on the settler movement.

3. Jerusalem is given the singular designation of a World City (administered by the UN) which opens up the city to unrestricted use by the three major religions whose members consider it a holy site. Disputes are resolved through the UN. Proceeds from tourism, etc. are split equally (after paying UN administrative costs) between the Palestinian state and Israel.

4. The Shebaa farms are returned to Lebanon. A multinational force is placed along the Southern border of Lebanon. All UN members pitch in (money, equipment and expert assistance) to help Lebanon quickly rebuild its infrastructure and create an army that can take over the Southern border. Hizbollah must accept Israel’s right to exist, forswear acts of terrorism and disarm or lose its charter as a political entity in Lebanon and all rights to act in any capacity within the communities or government of Lebanon, in effect becoming an outlawed organization.

5. The Iranian government is given a warning by the combined members of the UN Security Council to cease and desist any and all involvement in Lebanon with the threat of sanctions.

6. Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders. It must forswear any claims on the West Bank, Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon or Gaza. Israel also must enter into talks with a coalition of all nuclear powers to work toward the goal of nuclear disarmament.

Good thing you're not a hunter, cause cheney'd shotgun you in the face.

[errand]

Here’s my solution:

1. Give Syria half the Golan Heights. Tell them first, they must accept the right of Israel to exist, and second, they must stop supporting terrorists. In ten years, if the UN Security Council agrees that they have abided by these rules, they get the other half of the Heights.

2. Give the Palestinians the Gaza (administered by Egypt) and half the West Bank (administered by Jordan) until such a time as the Palestinian government can get its act together. The Palestinians must accept the right of Israel to exist and must do everything within their power to squelch terrorism within its ranks including allowing UN forces into their territories if they can’t handle the task. If, after 10 years the UN Security Council agrees that the Palestinians have met these conditions, they get the other half of the West Bank. Israel removes all settlers and puts the squelch on the settler movement.

3. Jerusalem is given the singular designation of a World City (administered by the UN) which opens up the city to unrestricted use by the three major religions whose members consider it a holy site. Disputes are resolved through the UN. Proceeds from tourism, etc. are split equally (after paying UN administrative costs) between the Palestinian state and Israel.

4. The Shebaa farms are returned to Lebanon. A multinational force is placed along the Southern border of Lebanon. All UN members pitch in (money, equipment and expert assistance) to help Lebanon quickly rebuild its infrastructure and create an army that can take over the Southern border. Hizbollah must accept Israel’s right to exist, forswear acts of terrorism and disarm or lose its charter as a political entity in Lebanon and all rights to act in any capacity within the communities or government of Lebanon, in effect becoming an outlawed organization.

5. The Iranian government is given a warning by the combined members of the UN Security Council to cease and desist any and all involvement in Lebanon with the threat of sanctions.

6. Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders. It must forswear any claims on the West Bank, Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon or Gaza. Israel also must enter into talks with a coalition of all nuclear powers to work toward the goal of nuclear disarmament.

OK, just so you know the highlighted words are where these talks you wish to happen so badly generally fall apart.

But, just to humor you and myself....let's say they all agree to this and yet, Hezbollah and the PLO keep attacking Israel? What do suggest Israel do then?

[bronco_diesel]

I'm MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT that I'm not entirely clear on the history, facts and circumstances surrounding the Israeli-Palestine situation (I suspect I am far from alone). Further, I grow weary of not fully understanding these important facts and circumstances, especially in light of the news of the day.

So, I'm going to state a list of 'facts,' as I understand them. I trust a well-informed member of the OrangeMane community will take the time to patiently interlineate (in BLUE or RED please) corrections, additions, etc., without leaving too great a trail of opinion PLEASE!

Here we go:

[INDENT]ONE - Before WWII, the area east of the Mediterranean, north of Egypt, south of Lebanon, and west of Jordan - including the "V"-shaped part of the Sinai - was UNINCORPORATED ... but loosely known as "Palestine."

http://www.interall.co.il/israel-faq.html#13
The name Palestine is derived from the biblical name Peleshet designating the coastal plain in which the Philistines (Peleshtim) settled in the course of their 12th century (BC) expansion. The Philistines were an Aegean people who were driven out of Greece and the Aegean islands around 1300 BC.
The first time the area which is today named Israel was given the name Palestine was in 135 AD after the Roman conquest of Judea. This was immediately after the Romans crushed the revolt led by Simon Bar Kochba in 135 AD. The Romans renamed the land Syria-Palesitina in an attempt to cancel the Jewish claim to the land. They proceeded to destroy Jerusalem and rename it Aelia Capitolina. But we can still find as late as the 4th century, the Christian author, Epiphanius referring to "Palestine, that is, Judea." Previous to 123 AD (a turning point in Jewish history), there is about 2000 years of Jewish presence and history in the area today termed Israel. Here is a brief history, leaving out thousands of names and places. Pick up any history book that covers this period and this region:


2000-1225 BC - The period of Abraham
1120-1180 BC - Moses, the exodus from Egypt, the crossing of the
Red Sea
1180-1100 BC - The assault on Jericho
1080-1030 BC - Samson, Samuel, Shaul
1030-1013 BC - David, battle of Gilboa
1013-1006 BC - David proclaimed king at Hebron, David captures
Jerusalem
1006-980 BC - The wars of David (Arameans, Moab, Edom)
980-933 BC - The death of David, Solomon, the 1st Temple
933-875 BC - War between Israel and Judah, Omri founds the 3rd
dynasty of Israel
987-851 BC - The era of Samaria
854-746 BC - Ahab, the Assyrian advance, the end of the Omri
dynasty
746-720 BC - Amos at Bet-el, Shallum, Menachem, Pekahiah - kings
of Israel, Ahaz king of Judea, deportation of
Israelite population to Assyria
720-692 BC - The fall of Samaria, the capture of Ashdod
692-609 BC - Beginning of decline of Assyrian power, the fall of
Ninveh, death of Josiah.
608-586 BC - The end of the kingdom of Judea, the destruction of
Jerusalem, the flight to Egypt by Jews
586-538 BC - Babylonian exile
538-432 BC - The restoration of the 1st Temple, Nehemiah builds
the walls
424-187 BC - Greek rule
187-142 BC - Hellenism, rededication of the Temple, Judah the
Maccabbee
142-37 BC - Simon, Syrian invasion repulsed, Samaritan temple
razed, rise of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Pompey,
Caesar, Herod named by Romans to be king of Jews
37-4 BC - Herod the Great
4BC-67 AD - Jesus, Pontius Pilate, Agrippa confirmed by Claudius,
Josephus in the Galilee
68-135 AD - Titus, destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, the
capture of Masada, Hadrian, the Jewish uprising led
by Bar Kochba, the renaming of Judea to
Syria-Palestina by Rome

Only in 632 AD did the Moslem Arabs invade Syria-Palestina and by 640 AD the area was part of the Moslem empire. This reign lasted 450 years, with first the Omayyads, then the Abbasid dynasty and finally by the Fatimids.

[bronco_diesel]

[INDENT]ONE - Before WWII, the area east of the Mediterranean, north of Egypt, south of Lebanon, and west of Jordan - including the "V"-shaped part of the Sinai - was UNINCORPORATED ... but loosely known as "Palestine."


TWO - Where do you "incorporate" a nation? The Hague? The United Nations? Mr. Kimball the county clerk? Where?


THREE - In the wake of WWII and the Holocaust, forces aligned to "incorporate" the nation of Israel in 1948. Israel proper includes all of this area except: a bulbous chunk of land that extends west from the River Jordan between the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee - and the Gaza Strip, a small piece of southern coastline bordering Egypt. These areas were left UNINCORPORATED. Israel's border ends at Jerusalem, but its exact placement around that city includes ...... all of it? None? Half? Israel DID/DID NOT then include the "V"-shaped eastern part of the Sinai.

http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=Anna&tab=weblogs&uid=29703868
Ezekiel 4:5-6 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

So the verse says that each day stands for a year... and we have 390+40... that's 430.

And we know that Daniel was reading Jeremiah 25 about how Isreal was in Babylonian captivity was 70 years.

Jeremiah 25:9-11 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land... And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

So 430 years of exile minus the 70 spent in Babylon equals 360 years. Ah... but they were bad doobies and were punished further...

Leviticus 26: 18-21 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

So 360 times 7 is 2,520 Biblical years.
And Bible years have 360 days.... so 2520 times 360 is 907,200 days.
Now... we start counting from the end of the Babylonian captivity, which was Nissan 1, or March 14th. That's the third month on our calendar. So we have to subtract the first three months (90 Biblical days) + the fourteen days of 'March'...

...that would be 907,200 - (90+14)= 907,096 days.
Converting it to our years: 907,096 divided by 365.25 = 2,483.4935
Next, we have to take into account that there's no year '0' between 1BC and 1AD... and we have to subtract the 'BC' years after the Babylonian captivity (which was March 14, 536BC).

So the math is: 2483.4935 - 536 = 1948.4935 ... or 1948.5.

According to these Biblical calculations, Isreal would become a nation again in... the fifth month of 1948... or... MAY 1948.

[TheDave]

http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=Anna&tab=weblogs&uid=29703868
Ezekiel 4:5-6 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

So the verse says that each day stands for a year... and we have 390+40... that's 430.

And we know that Daniel was reading Jeremiah 25 about how Isreal was in Babylonian captivity was 70 years.

Jeremiah 25:9-11 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land... And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

So 430 years of exile minus the 70 spent in Babylon equals 360 years. Ah... but they were bad doobies and were punished further...

Leviticus 26: 18-21 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

So 360 times 7 is 2,520 Biblical years.
And Bible years have 360 days.... so 2520 times 360 is 907,200 days.
Now... we start counting from the end of the Babylonian captivity, which was Nissan 1, or March 14th. That's the third month on our calendar. So we have to subtract the first three months (90 Biblical days) + the fourteen days of 'March'...

...that would be 907,200 - (90+14)= 907,096 days.
Converting it to our years: 907,096 divided by 365.25 = 2,483.4935
Next, we have to take into account that there's no year '0' between 1BC and 1AD... and we have to subtract the 'BC' years after the Babylonian captivity (which was March 14, 536BC).

So the math is: 2483.4935 - 536 = 1948.4935 ... or 1948.5.

According to these Biblical calculations, Isreal would become a nation again in... the fifth month of 1948... or... MAY 1948.

Robb?

[Rohirrim]

OK, just so you know the highlighted words are where these talks you wish to happen so badly generally fall apart.

But, just to humor you and myself....let's say they all agree to this and yet, Hezbollah and the PLO keep attacking Israel? What do suggest Israel do then?

I believe if Israel agreed to this kind of package, the other states would too. If the rogue terror organizations refused to cooperate, they would eventually be frozen out, just the way the IRA was frozen out once Ireland and Britain began to work toward their agreement. It's the states that give life to the PLO, Hizbollah, and Al Queda. Once those states begin to work toward solving their disagreements, the militant organizations lose steam. They cannot operate independently forever. They can only operate as long as states find them useful to achieving their ends.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think that you guys are looking to far into the past to solve what is a modern issue.

We tend to project our American values on the Palestinians, and expect that their motivation to destroy Israel is based in economic factors and past injustices, but the truth of the matter is that they function largely out of pure racism.

From former PLO Terrorist Walid Shoebat (shoebat.com):

“The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.”

“The Arab refugee problem was caused by Arab aggression and not Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for their fate?”

"No one (Arab or Jew) has a "right of return". Jews who fled Arab persecution from 1948 to 1956 should have no right of return to Arab lands, and Arabs who ran away in 1948 and 1967 should have no right of return either. This should end all argument. Yet the Jews accept this judgment, while the Arabs reject EVERYTHING."

I found out about Shoebat last night while listening to "coast to coast am". This man has a wealth of knowledge about the raw hatred of Israel that is bred into the Palestinians and perpetuated by crooked leaders like Arafat, who he claims stole well over a billion dollars from Palestinians through UN programs.

[bronco_diesel]

history in a nutshell-
http://www.conceptwizard.com/conen/con3.swf

[bronco_diesel]

Robb?

no sir - just been studying.

[TheDave]

no sir - just been studying...

... with Robb ROFL!

[Rohirrim]

I think that you guys are looking to far into the past to solve what is a modern issue.

We tend to project our American values on the Palestinians, and expect that their motivation to destroy Israel is based in economic factors and past injustices, but the truth of the matter is that they function largely out of pure racism.

From former PLO Terrorist Walid Shoebat (shoebat.com):

“The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.”

“The Arab refugee problem was caused by Arab aggression and not Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for their fate?”

"No one (Arab or Jew) has a "right of return". Jews who fled Arab persecution from 1948 to 1956 should have no right of return to Arab lands, and Arabs who ran away in 1948 and 1967 should have no right of return either. This should end all argument. Yet the Jews accept this judgment, while the Arabs reject EVERYTHING."

I found out about Shoebat last night while listening to "coast to coast am". This man has a wealth of knowledge about the raw hatred of Israel that is bred into the Palestinians and perpetuated by crooked leaders like Arafat, who he claims stole well over a billion dollars from Palestinians through UN programs.

The Protestants and Catholics of Ireland engaged in the same kind of hatred for hundreds of years. They have learned that its in their best interests to move beyond it. There are still some of the old guard (Ian Paisley) spewing hatred all over the map, but their constituency shrinks more and more every year. It can be overcome.

A hundred years ago, the KKK ruled many communities in the U.S. and lynchings of blacks were events you brought your children and your picnic to. We have changed. They can too.

[bendog]

shooo bat is apt.

[Pezman]

You're an idiot, stop posting. Fact.

Lets keep the personal attacks away please Tensi. No need for that.

[epicSocialism4tw]

shooo bat is apt.


He is a little more qualified to assess the situation than you or I.

[epicSocialism4tw]

A hundred years ago, the KKK ruled many communities in the U.S. and lynchings of blacks were events you brought your children and your picnic to. We have changed. They can too.

Sure, but you dont invite the lynching crew over into your community for tea until there is some sort of acknowledgment that they are a lynching crew, and that what they are doing is causing the problem.

Remember, it was Palestinian terror attacks that caused Israel to put up walls. Before that, Palestinians were invited to work in Israel.

[bronco_diesel]

Here’s my solution:


5. The Iranian government is given a warning by the combined members of the UN Security Council to cease and desist any and all involvement in Lebanon with the threat of sanctions.

do you really think the Iranian president is going to listen to any UN warning?

he believes he's acting in behalf of allah. he believes he is going to usher in the 12th Imam or the Mahdi - and in order to do so an apocolyptic war must begin. once the Mahdi is here, he will unite the Muslims, kill off the infadels (jews and christians) and bring the entire world to submit to Islam.

a slap on the hand by the UN is not going to do much. are you aware of the significance of Aug 22? when he said he would respond?

[Hotrod]

do you really think the Iranian president is going to listen to any UN warning?

he believes he's acting in behalf of allah. he believes he is going to usher in the 12th Imam or the Mahdi - and in order to do so an apocolyptic war must begin. once the Mahdi is here, he will unite the Muslims, kill off the infadels (jews and christians) and bring the entire world to submit to Islam.

a slap on the hand by the UN is not going to do much. are you aware of the significance of Aug 22? when he said he would respond?

Me and someone else brought it up but it did not exactly meet a warm welcome.

I still say the reason we are having such heated debates over the ME is some are trying to deal with reason and logic. That simply does not exist in the fanatic Muslims world. They (Iran) are basing most if not all their decissions on the Koran and hatred of the Jew.

[alkemical]

I think that you guys are looking to far into the past to solve what is a modern issue.

We tend to project our American values on the Palestinians, and expect that their motivation to destroy Israel is based in economic factors and past injustices, but the truth of the matter is that they function largely out of pure racism.

From former PLO Terrorist Walid Shoebat (shoebat.com):

“The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.”

“The Arab refugee problem was caused by Arab aggression and not Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for their fate?”

"No one (Arab or Jew) has a "right of return". Jews who fled Arab persecution from 1948 to 1956 should have no right of return to Arab lands, and Arabs who ran away in 1948 and 1967 should have no right of return either. This should end all argument. Yet the Jews accept this judgment, while the Arabs reject EVERYTHING."

I found out about Shoebat last night while listening to "coast to coast am". This man has a wealth of knowledge about the raw hatred of Israel that is bred into the Palestinians and perpetuated by crooked leaders like Arafat, who he claims stole well over a billion dollars from Palestinians through UN programs.


I couldn't stay up that late, i was out at like 1:30a est

[alkemical]

do you really think the Iranian president is going to listen to any UN warning?

he believes he's acting in behalf of allah. he believes he is going to usher in the 12th Imam or the Mahdi - and in order to do so an apocolyptic war must begin. once the Mahdi is here, he will unite the Muslims, kill off the infadels (jews and christians) and bring the entire world to submit to Islam.

a slap on the hand by the UN is not going to do much. are you aware of the significance of Aug 22? when he said he would respond?


It's funny what men do when they think they are doing 'gods' will.

[defenseman]

Me and someone else brought it up but it did not exactly meet a warm welcome.

I still say the reason we are having such heated debates over the ME is some are trying to deal with reason and logic. That simply does not exist in the fanatic Muslims world. They (Iran) are basing most if not all their decissions on the Koran and hatred of the Jew.

Pretty scary stuff. I have a few SEAL buddies who have filled me in on enough events and such, to know, these "terrorists" are real and they quite honestly, can't be dealt with at any rational level "in the field". IF, you can seperate them, a slow methodical dissection can occur, mental dissection that is, and again, it's still tough to get them to roll to anything rational. They understand very little of the west and what we really are, but, while you are doing your best to understand, they will be plotting a way or method to remove your head from your shoulders. Simple as that...pretty damn amazing if you ask me.....dman

[bendog]

I think the God's will thing is really a smokescreen. The ultrazionist neocons use it too, but they're just covering up the basic fact that they want more power/money and think they can get it with their army occupying places. The muslims are frustrated because they don't seem able to compete with the west in biz or technology.

And, there's a difference between Abarazzihead (whatever) in Iran and bin laden. Bin laden's so extreme he really never has had much more than fringe of support. Abarazzihead's got the issue of "America really is out to invade us," and he's RIGHT - Cheney Ledeen and the neocons want to do just that. The guy's not a loon. Every person in the ME knwos the US tilts towards Israel. The notion of the US being a fair broker ended on Nov 2, 2000. He uses that too.

Meanwhile we have president who actually thinks God choose him, specifically to be Potus, and God oks his actions. I think we have the guy whose the true loony.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I couldn't stay up that late, i was out at like 1:30a est

I was up painting my living room and hanging curtains. I enjoy coast to coast. Noory has to be the most pleasant man on radio.

Shoebat really opened my eyes to alot of what's going on there. I would really encourage you guys to take a look at his interviews on his website. I found the "Ex-Terrorists Appear on CN8 This Morning" round table interview to be quite a resource.

[broncocalijohn]

Here’s my solution:

1. Give Syria half the Golan Heights. Tell them first, they must accept the right of Israel to exist, and second, they must stop supporting terrorists. In ten years, if the UN Security Council agrees that they have abided by these rules, they get the other half of the Heights.

2. Give the Palestinians the Gaza (administered by Egypt) and half the West Bank (administered by Jordan) until such a time as the Palestinian government can get its act together. The Palestinians must accept the right of Israel to exist and must do everything within their power to squelch terrorism within its ranks including allowing UN forces into their territories if they can’t handle the task. If, after 10 years the UN Security Council agrees that the Palestinians have met these conditions, they get the other half of the West Bank. Israel removes all settlers and puts the squelch on the settler movement.

3. Jerusalem is given the singular designation of a World City (administered by the UN) which opens up the city to unrestricted use by the three major religions whose members consider it a holy site. Disputes are resolved through the UN. Proceeds from tourism, etc. are split equally (after paying UN administrative costs) between the Palestinian state and Israel.

4. The Shebaa farms are returned to Lebanon. A multinational force is placed along the Southern border of Lebanon. All UN members pitch in (money, equipment and expert assistance) to help Lebanon quickly rebuild its infrastructure and create an army that can take over the Southern border. Hizbollah must accept Israel’s right to exist, forswear acts of terrorism and disarm or lose its charter as a political entity in Lebanon and all rights to act in any capacity within the communities or government of Lebanon, in effect becoming an outlawed organization.

5. The Iranian government is given a warning by the combined members of the UN Security Council to cease and desist any and all involvement in Lebanon with the threat of sanctions.

6. Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders. It must forswear any claims on the West Bank, Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon or Gaza. Israel also must enter into talks with a coalition of all nuclear powers to work toward the goal of nuclear disarmament.

Your solution is screw Israel for protection (these countries want them out of the middle east so giving back golan heights is a critical defensive slip up) and believe that the UN is the solution. Try a book called UN Exposed by Eric Shawn. Hezbollah exist to take out Israel. Dont you think their political power is gone with them losing out on their army to fight Israel and to accept the fact that Israel is a Country. Plus this would make Gaffney get his old time uniform out and start his own battle against Israel.

[DBruleU]

I think that you guys are looking to far into the past to solve what is a modern issue.

We tend to project our American values on the Palestinians, and expect that their motivation to destroy Israel is based in economic factors and past injustices, but the truth of the matter is that they function largely out of pure racism.

From former PLO Terrorist Walid Shoebat (shoebat.com):

“The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.”

“The Arab refugee problem was caused by Arab aggression and not Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for their fate?”

"No one (Arab or Jew) has a "right of return". Jews who fled Arab persecution from 1948 to 1956 should have no right of return to Arab lands, and Arabs who ran away in 1948 and 1967 should have no right of return either. This should end all argument. Yet the Jews accept this judgment, while the Arabs reject EVERYTHING."

I found out about Shoebat last night while listening to "coast to coast am". This man has a wealth of knowledge about the raw hatred of Israel that is bred into the Palestinians and perpetuated by crooked leaders like Arafat, who he claims stole well over a billion dollars from Palestinians through UN programs.


Hey Llama, did you see Walid on Hannity & Colmes a couple nights ago?

He sounded like he knew a lot about whats going on. Especially insider info considering what he used to be. Have you ever read his book, "Why I left Jihad?"

It sounds interesting.

[bronco_diesel]

I think the God's will thing is really a smokescreen. The ultrazionist neocons use it too, but they're just covering up the basic fact that they want more power/money and think they can get it with their army occupying places. The muslims are frustrated because they don't seem able to compete with the west in biz or technology.

And, there's a difference between Abarazzihead (whatever) in Iran and bin laden. Bin laden's so extreme he really never has had much more than fringe of support. Abarazzihead's got the issue of "America really is out to invade us," and he's RIGHT - Cheney Ledeen and the neocons want to do just that. The guy's not a loon. Every person in the ME knwos the US tilts towards Israel. The notion of the US being a fair broker ended on Nov 2, 2000. He uses that too.

Meanwhile we have president who actually thinks God choose him, specifically to be Potus, and God oks his actions. I think we have the guy whose the true loony.

(Muhammad said:) "The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him..." - (Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985)

Allah's Apostle (Muhammad) said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’” - (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59)

Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion... (Surah 9:29)

[Hotrod]

This is what Im talking about. They guy is nuts and gives a damn about the Pals and their right to a piece of dirt thats not what hes about. Hes starting to make Kim Jong Il look like a fairly reasonable man.

http://rapidrecon.threatswatch.org/2006/08/iran-and-august-22/

From yesterday’s Wall Street Journal, Bernard Lewis in his commentary, August 22: Does Iran have something in store?

In Islam, as in Judaism and Christianity, there are certain beliefs concerning the cosmic struggle at the end of time—Gog and Magog, anti-Christ, Armageddon, and for Shiite Muslims, the long awaited return of the Hidden Imam, ending in the final victory of the forces of good over evil, however these may be defined. Mr. Ahmadinejad and his followers clearly believe that this time is now, and that the terminal struggle has already begun and is indeed well advanced. It may even have a date, indicated by several references by the Iranian president to giving his final answer to the U.S. about nuclear development by Aug. 22. This was at first reported as “by the end of August,” but Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement was more precise.

What is the significance of Aug. 22? This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to “the farthest mosque,” usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.

A passage from the Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11th-grade Iranian schoolbook, is revealing. “I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one another’s hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours.”

In this context, mutual assured destruction, the deterrent that worked so well during the Cold War, would have no meaning. At the end of time, there will be general destruction anyway. What will matter will be the final destination of the dead—hell for the infidels, and heaven for the believers. For people with this mindset, MAD is not a constraint; it is an inducement."

[epicSocialism4tw]

Hey Llama, did you see Walid on Hannity & Colmes a couple nights ago?

He sounded like he knew a lot about whats going on. Especially insider info considering what he used to be. Have you ever read his book, "Why I left Jihad?"

It sounds interesting.

No...I just heard him for the first time last night. I'll have to check it out.

There arent many people out there like him. The honest detractors are beheaded.

He and the other panelists in one of the interviews on his site said that they consistently receive death threats.

[DBruleU]

No...I just heard him for the first time last night. I'll have to check it out.

There arent many people out there like him. The honest detractors are beheaded.

He and the other panelists in one of the interviews on his site said that they consistently receive death threats.

Yeah, I was just reading up about him, and the way he came to denounce violence, and Islam in whole is very interesting. How his wife challenged him to show her where the Jews changed the Bible. I guess after he converted to Christianity he recieved many death threats, especially from him own family, including his brother.

Just goes to show you the hate Islamics have for anyone but their own Islamic brothers.

[elsid13]

I have enough ammuniton and weapons to arm a small army!

Glad you can stop the Zombie Army when it shows up from Canada. Are going to let LABF into your keep, when he needs protection?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Glad you can stop the Zombie Army when it shows up form Canada. Are going to LABF into your keep, when he needs protection?

I thought about this earlier this morning. There comes a time when you have to have to choose sides. That decision may be coming up for LA, Gaffney, and the like.

[Rohirrim]

I thought about this earlier this morning. There comes a time when you have to have to choose sides. That decision may be coming up for LA, Gaffney, and the like.

I know this will come as a huge shock to you, but just as the fundamentalist Christians in America do not represent all Christians, the fundamentalist Muslims in the ME do not represent all Muslims. There are a billion Muslims in the world. If they were all militant fundamentalists, we'd all be in a pretty nasty spot.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I know this will come as a huge shock to you, but just as the fundamentalist Christians in America do not represent all Christians, the fundamentalist Muslims in the ME do not represent all Muslims. There are a billion Muslims in the world. If they were all militant fundamentalists, we'd all be in a pretty nasty spot.


The only non-militant Muslims are in the west, and they arent even immune.

The idea that there are democratized, tolerant Muslims all around the world is a false one perpetuated by politicians.

They do not assimilate the western paradigm. They are not like us. Ideaologically, they are very far from us. Ideas that are a function of democracy are not propagated. They are snuffed out through murder.

Tolerance, free market of ideas, equality, temperance, fairness of trade, accountability, etc. These are all ideas that are certainly NOT part of the Middle Eastern mind.

[Rohirrim]

The only non-militant Muslims are in the west, and they arent even immune.

The idea that there are democratized, tolerant Muslims all around the world is a false one perpetuated by politicians.

They do not assimilate the western paradigm. They are not like us. Ideaologically, they are very far from us. Ideas that are a function of democracy are not propagated. They are snuffed out through murder.

That good old "they" word. That usually comes right before we start throwing ropes over tree branches. It makes them so much easier to kill when they become "theys."

[DBruleU]

I know this will come as a huge shock to you, but just as the fundamentalist Christians in America do not represent all Christians, the fundamentalist Muslims in the ME do not represent all Muslims. There are a billion Muslims in the world. If they were all militant fundamentalists, we'd all be in a pretty nasty spot.

Unfortunately, the majority of Muslims support people like Osama Bin Laden, and the idea of radical Islam.

Heres an interesting interview you should watch. There are plenty more like it. But its an interview with former terrorists themselves, who have converted from this type of radical Islam. They even state that the way Bush is handeling this war on terrorism is the only way to do it. And that the majority do support OBL.

http://www.shoebat.com/media/cn8_2006_01.wmv

[epicSocialism4tw]

That good old "they" word. That usually comes right before we start throwing ropes over tree branches. It makes them so much easier to kill when they become "theys."

They are they's. They are not like us, and they want to kill us. It's very simple. I know that secular humanism is propped up on the idea that everyone is the same, but a little bit of common sense goes a long way in this situation. Ideaologically, these extremists are very different from what the American society produces. Very, very different. These guys are raised in an environment that is completely intolerant of anything but strict adherence to the rule of Imams and Sheiks and their interpretations of the Qu'ran. Right now, just as on 9/11/2002, they are bred to kill Jews #1, and Americans #1b. These are the people that you are dealing with in the PLO, Hizbullah, Hamas, Al-Quaeda, etc.

Make no mistake. The they's are your enemy, and they want you dead.

[alkemical]

I think the God's will thing is really a smokescreen. The ultrazionist neocons use it too, but they're just covering up the basic fact that they want more power/money and think they can get it with their army occupying places. The muslims are frustrated because they don't seem able to compete with the west in biz or technology.

And, there's a difference between Abarazzihead (whatever) in Iran and bin laden. Bin laden's so extreme he really never has had much more than fringe of support. Abarazzihead's got the issue of "America really is out to invade us," and he's RIGHT - Cheney Ledeen and the neocons want to do just that. The guy's not a loon. Every person in the ME knwos the US tilts towards Israel. The notion of the US being a fair broker ended on Nov 2, 2000. He uses that too.

Meanwhile we have president who actually thinks God choose him, specifically to be Potus, and God oks his actions. I think we have the guy whose the true loony.


'Dog,

If enough people want the apocolypse, it will happen... *sigh*

[alkemical]

I was up painting my living room and hanging curtains. I enjoy coast to coast. Noory has to be the most pleasant man on radio.

Shoebat really opened my eyes to alot of what's going on there. I would really encourage you guys to take a look at his interviews on his website. I found the "Ex-Terrorists Appear on CN8 This Morning" round table interview to be quite a resource.


I love c2c - noory has really brought a well rounded 'feel' to the show - not to mention - i think he's helped the shows 'credibility' if you will. They also do seem to be on a bit of a 'curve' too.

I have a lifetime FCC license, i had thought about going back into broadcasting and trying to net a spot on C2C after some time in.

[smalltowngrll]

It's funny what men do when they think they are doing 'gods' will.


On the same note...it's funny what man will do in account of their OWN will!

You just never know these days!

[epicSocialism4tw]

I love c2c - noory has really brought a well rounded 'feel' to the show - not to mention - i think he's helped the shows 'credibility' if you will. They also do seem to be on a bit of a 'curve' too.


Many of the callers to that show are batty, but Noory is polite to them and takes it all in stride.

[alkemical]

This is what Im talking about. They guy is nuts and gives a damn about the Pals and their right to a piece of dirt thats not what hes about. Hes starting to make Kim Jong Il look like a fairly reasonable man.

http://rapidrecon.threatswatch.org/2006/08/iran-and-august-22/

From yesterday’s Wall Street Journal, Bernard Lewis in his commentary, August 22: Does Iran have something in store?

In Islam, as in Judaism and Christianity, there are certain beliefs concerning the cosmic struggle at the end of time—Gog and Magog, anti-Christ, Armageddon, and for Shiite Muslims, the long awaited return of the Hidden Imam, ending in the final victory of the forces of good over evil, however these may be defined. Mr. Ahmadinejad and his followers clearly believe that this time is now, and that the terminal struggle has already begun and is indeed well advanced. It may even have a date, indicated by several references by the Iranian president to giving his final answer to the U.S. about nuclear development by Aug. 22. This was at first reported as “by the end of August,” but Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement was more precise.

What is the significance of Aug. 22? This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to “the farthest mosque,” usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.

A passage from the Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11th-grade Iranian schoolbook, is revealing. “I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one another’s hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours.”

In this context, mutual assured destruction, the deterrent that worked so well during the Cold War, would have no meaning. At the end of time, there will be general destruction anyway. What will matter will be the final destination of the dead—hell for the infidels, and heaven for the believers. For people with this mindset, MAD is not a constraint; it is an inducement."




Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm


seems i got dinged on citing 8/22 - anyway....

the sad thing is the Pals, have been treated like pawns for so long, they are like a dog that's been beat. They are nice when you feed them, but the moment you try to correct them, you are bitten. I think culturally - it's almost impossible for us to 'relate' to what they have to go through day to day.

Not an excuse, but how can we offer a different alternative in order to try to bring about change?

No more 'old world' solutions - they have only presented 'old world problems'.

[alkemical]

(Muhammad said:) "The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him..." - (Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985)

Allah's Apostle (Muhammad) said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’” - (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59)

Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion... (Surah 9:29)


I can cite/quote numerous bible passes about killing unbelievers, etc.

[alkemical]

I thought about this earlier this morning. There comes a time when you have to have to choose sides. That decision may be coming up for LA, Gaffney, and the like.


My side:

America, the nation it was founded to be an upon. The outline of the constituion, nothing more - nothing less. It IS the 8th wonder of the world. It won't be demolished or erode unless we as mankind choose to do so.

it is the representation of all the light of the sun, on paper.

those whom wish to take america away and make it their own warped world - are the only people i worry about.

unfortunatley, there's alot of them.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I can cite/quote numerous bible passes about killing unbelievers, etc.


Okay, pot stirrier LOL

You would have to exclude anything that was illuminated by the teachings of Yeshua.

[Hotrod]

'Dog,

If enough people want the apocolypse, it will happen... *sigh*

You were not pointing that at me were you???

[alkemical]

The only non-militant Muslims are in the west, and they arent even immune.

The idea that there are democratized, tolerant Muslims all around the world is a false one perpetuated by politicians.

They do not assimilate the western paradigm. They are not like us. Ideaologically, they are very far from us. Ideas that are a function of democracy are not propagated. They are snuffed out through murder.

Tolerance, free market of ideas, equality, temperance, fairness of trade, accountability, etc. These are all ideas that are certainly NOT part of the Middle Eastern mind.


Disagree -

for those in power - all the 'good' of the west are realized and used. However, as all to common - those with the (liquid :) )gold - set the rules

[alkemical]

Unfortunately, the majority of Muslims support people like Osama Bin Laden, and the idea of radical Islam.

Heres an interesting interview you should watch. There are plenty more like it. But its an interview with former terrorists themselves, who have converted from this type of radical Islam. They even state that the way Bush is handeling this war on terrorism is the only way to do it. And that the majority do support OBL.

http://www.shoebat.com/media/cn8_2006_01.wmv


How do i know that this isn't misinformation?

IMO we've done everything UBL wanted us too -

[alkemical]

On the same note...it's funny what man will do in account of their OWN will!

You just never know these days!


At least i'd know i made the decision ;)

[epicSocialism4tw]

How do i know that this isn't misinformation?

IMO we've done everything UBL wanted us too -


This is how you know: you probably havent heard much from him before. He hasnt become propagandized.

[DBruleU]

How do i know that this isn't misinformation?

IMO we've done everything UBL wanted us too -

You mean from guys who were part of the very thing we are fighting?

I'm sure OBL is just peachy right now. ::)

[DBruleU]

This is how you know: you probably havent heard much from him before. He hasnt become propagandized.

100% fact.

[alkemical]

Many of the callers to that show are batty, but Noory is polite to them and takes it all in stride.


I'd say most are a bit 'off' - but how can i judge them - i mean who'd believe me that an angel took the form of a bum who smelled like urine and offered me wine - then told me it was time for me to leave - and then strangers sent me money to get home (thanks DPO crew - Bendog is one) -

Now, some - i will grant you are def. nuts. But at the worst - they make me chuckle, because they are on the phone, on the radio and i'm not working 3rdshift and having a guy come in telling me the unplugged radio has richard nixon on it......

[alkemical]

Okay, pot stirrier LOL

You would have to exclude anything that was illuminated by the teachings of Yeshua.


Well i don't see anyone including the good stuff in the Koran. I mean for being christians, it'd be a good thing to read - after all - moses is like in the top 3 of all people mentioned in the koran.

[alkemical]

This is how you know: you probably havent heard much from him before. He hasnt become propagandized.


Well that's a tough call to make. Just because you haven't heard much form someone, doesn't mean they aren't giving disinfo......

argument from authority = -1pt in critical thinking -

I just am very wary with anything dealing with religion and ME relations from anyone that claims to be an expert or expousing this over that. It seems.... to plastic for me....

[epicSocialism4tw]

I'd say most are a bit 'off' - but how can i judge them - i mean who'd believe me that an angel took the form of a bum who smelled like urine and offered me wine - then told me it was time for me to leave - and then strangers sent me money to get home (thanks DPO crew - Bendog is one) -

Now, some - i will grant you are def. nuts. But at the worst - they make me chuckle, because they are on the phone, on the radio and i'm not working 3rdshift and having a guy come in telling me the unplugged radio has richard nixon on it......


Part of the charm of Noory and that show are that the "batty" callers are given time too. Their community is built on mutual kindness and the patient listening of one to another. I think that Noory facilitates that environment much better than Bell.

[alkemical]

You mean from guys who were part of the very thing we are fighting?

I'm sure OBL is just peachy right now. ::)


I'm pretty sure UBL is a bit better off than 'we' think he is. (I actually am of the group that thinks he's been dead for sometime now though) -

but if alive, he'd have enough sympathizers, supporters and cash to not be living in caves.

****, did you see the 'last/new/next' #2 al queda guy? His studio looks like it's got some $$$$ behind it......

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well that's a tough call to make. Just because you haven't heard much form someone, doesn't mean they aren't giving disinfo......

argument from authority = -1pt in critical thinking -

I just am very wary with anything dealing with religion and ME relations from anyone that claims to be an expert or expousing this over that. It seems.... to plastic for me....


Well, then maybe you should read his book and quit with the prejudgment based on paranoia. -10pt critical thinking. :kiss:

[alkemical]

100% fact.


PROVE IT

[alkemical]

Part of the charm of Noory and that show are that the "batty" callers are given time too. Their community is built on mutual kindness and the patient listening of one to another. I think that Noory facilitates that environment much better than Bell.


Different personalities - though art does let a 'good one' on now and then.

[alkemical]

Well, then maybe you should read his book and quit with the prejudgment based on paranoia. -10pt critical thinking. :kiss:


LOL - touche -

did you read teh book yet?

You do see my point though on the misinfo/disinfo though, right? I mean if we use 'authority' to 'prove to us' what is 'right' - we close off that part that would question it.

If we don't question it, and just agree with it - we do loose alot in those terms.

I mean, lots of bad has been allowed to happen.... unquestioned (use this, and apply it to the terrorists)

[epicSocialism4tw]

LOL - touche -

did you read teh book yet?

You do see my point though on the misinfo/disinfo though, right? I mean if we use 'authority' to 'prove to us' what is 'right' - we close off that part that would question it.

If we don't question it, and just agree with it - we do loose alot in those terms.

I mean, lots of bad has been allowed to happen.... unquestioned (use this, and apply it to the terrorists)


There are times when authority provides us with the best information. In Shoebat's case, his experience within PLO gives us an intimate glimpse at the inner sanctum of the exclusivist muslim extremist/palestinian life. Quite honestly, there arent any voices in our nation that gives us that type of look. This goober Gaffney on this site certainly does not.

At the very least, Shoebat gives us a look at what a westernized extremist looks like, and how his former society dealt with his conversion.

[broncocalijohn]

That good old "they" word. That usually comes right before we start throwing ropes over tree branches. It makes them so much easier to kill when they become "theys."

We already heard your solution to "fix" the problem by trusting the UN and now u think muslims in a hole are not the problem. There was a thread a few months back that I posted concerning the question, "besides your own countries leader, who do you respect the most?" Bin Ladin was i believe the top pick in many countries in the ME including ones that dont get involved with these types of issues. Wake up, dude. You are living in LALA land. When a mother praises her son for blowing himself up to kill others for Allah, the world isnt right. Maybe Iran's president is THE ANTI CHRIST.

[Falconer]

This is what Im talking about. They guy is nuts and gives a damn about the Pals and their right to a piece of dirt thats not what hes about. Hes starting to make Kim Jong Il look like a fairly reasonable man.

http://rapidrecon.threatswatch.org/2006/08/iran-and-august-22/

From yesterday’s Wall Street Journal, Bernard Lewis in his commentary, August 22: Does Iran have something in store?

In Islam, as in Judaism and Christianity, there are certain beliefs concerning the cosmic struggle at the end of time—Gog and Magog, anti-Christ, Armageddon, and for Shiite Muslims, the long awaited return of the Hidden Imam, ending in the final victory of the forces of good over evil, however these may be defined. Mr. Ahmadinejad and his followers clearly believe that this time is now, and that the terminal struggle has already begun and is indeed well advanced. It may even have a date, indicated by several references by the Iranian president to giving his final answer to the U.S. about nuclear development by Aug. 22. This was at first reported as “by the end of August,” but Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement was more precise.

What is the significance of Aug. 22? This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to “the farthest mosque,” usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.

A passage from the Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11th-grade Iranian schoolbook, is revealing. “I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one another’s hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours.”

In this context, mutual assured destruction, the deterrent that worked so well during the Cold War, would have no meaning. At the end of time, there will be general destruction anyway. What will matter will be the final destination of the dead—hell for the infidels, and heaven for the believers. For people with this mindset, MAD is not a constraint; it is an inducement."

That is an interesting take, but I do believe it's wrong in my own opinion. The real reason why he is waiting until the 22nd is obvious. He is going to break off all relations with the U.S., but he wants to make sure he gets his copy of Madden 07 for the Xbox 360. :thanku:

[mhgaffney]

I'm MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT that I'm not entirely clear on the history, facts and circumstances surrounding the Israeli-Palestine situation (I suspect I am far from alone). Further, I grow weary of not fully understanding these important facts and circumstances, especially in light of the news of the day.


I have to admire Bronco Buff for taking on this issue. He would go where even angels fear to tread. But the truth is there's just no way to do justice to this issue in a forum like this. It's too limited. The attention span in here is 3 seconds -- or less.

Having said that, I will try.

First, the history of the conflict has been as bitterly contested as the conflict itself. And the Zionists have won, at least, in America. They've brainwashed Americans to accept their version of events. This is what we get on CNN, FOX etc

There are MAJOR problems with their version of history, however.

This is not an ancient conflict. People need to understand that Jews found refuge in the Arab world when our virulently anti semitic Christianity began to persecute Jews in the fourth century AD. At that time Iraq -- yes, Iraq -- became the center of Judaism, and remained so for the next 1,000 years. In Islam Jews have status as people of the book and are not persecuted --- very different from the Christian church's policies over many centuries.

However, this status broke down in the 1920s, when the Zionist program for Palestine became obvious to every Arab. Zionism is a racist form of colonialism. In Zionism there was no place for the Palestinians. They were to be brushed aside just like our white Anglo Saxon forebears brushed aside the Native Americans. The analogy fits like a glove.

This is the essence of it. There was a Palestinian revolt in 1936-39. It was put down by the British -- who ruled in Palestine after WW I.

In fact, the Brits betrayed the Arabs at Versailles after WW I. You've seen the movie Lawrence of Arabia. It's based on real events. The British promised indepedence to the Arabs in return for support against the Turks in WW I. TE Lawrence's famous book Seven Pillars of Wisdom documented the victorious desert campaign against the Turks.

But after the war the Brits went back on their promise. You see, during the war they had also given a promise to the Jews -- in the Balfour Declaration -- and the two promises were contradictory.

The Jews got their homeland. The Arabs got screwed.

The Palestinians, who had nothing to do with the Holocaust, lost everything in 1948. They call it al-Nabka -- the catastrophe. For more on this go to
http://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html

This is enough history for one post. But there is MUCH more to tell.
MG

[gunns]

The only non-militant Muslims are in the west, and they arent even immune.

The idea that there are democratized, tolerant Muslims all around the world is a false one perpetuated by politicians.

They do not assimilate the western paradigm. They are not like us. Ideaologically, they are very far from us. Ideas that are a function of democracy are not propagated. They are snuffed out through murder.

Tolerance, free market of ideas, equality, temperance, fairness of trade, accountability, etc. These are all ideas that are certainly NOT part of the Middle Eastern mind.

Well damn, thanks for that Llama. All those muslims I work with that I thought were decent people....well I guess I better load my stapler.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well damn, thanks for that Llama. All those muslims I work with that I thought were decent people....well I guess I better load my stapler.

Do you live in a "Western" nation?

[gunns]

Do you live in a "Western" nation?

Did you say "nation"? America is often said to be a Western nation.

Originally Posted by angryllama
The only non-militant Muslims are in the west, and they arent even immune..

I do live in the west.

The idea that there are democratized, tolerant Muslims all around the world is a false one perpetuated by politicians..

Let's see, where I live is somewhere "all around the world".

They do not assimilate the western paradigm. They are not like us. Ideaologically, they are very far from us. Ideas that are a function of democracy are not propagated. They are snuffed out through murder.

Ok, I'm assuming us means Americans. I am one. Still no "nation", but I will give you this once again, America is a nation and is often referred to as "west of the Middle East".


Tolerance, free market of ideas, equality, temperance, fairness of trade, accountability, etc. These are all ideas that are certainly NOT part of the Middle Eastern mind.

Finally, all of the muslims I work with are from the Middle East.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Did you say "nation"? America is often said to be a Western nation.

I do live in the west.




That's all you had to say.

[W*GS]

This is enough history for one post. But there is MUCH more to tell.

That's one version of the history - a rather revisionist one at that.

It's not often I come across such a virulently pro-Palestinian anti-Israel viewpoint.

[Cito Pelon]

I have always thought the Khan that came through the Fertile Crescent, Middle East, whatever term you care to use (Gingis Khan's grandson I believe) set the course that we see now.

He killed every learned Arab and Persian he could. Every teacher, every leader. What that did was open up the leadership positions for the wild Wahabbis, the desert Arabs. And that is what we see running the show now. The Arabs had advanced civilizations up til that Khan came through, have been stagnant since.