Support Of israel poll

[alkemical]

I'm trying to gauge, and dman pointed out it was a bad poll.

Take 2 -

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Where's the option I don't support them or any other country in the ME?

[TheDave]

Where's the option I don't support them or any other country in the ME?

That or the "i don't support anyone option"

[enjolras]

I support Isreals right to exist...but that doesn't mean I support their policies or the way they've handled their issues.

[alkemical]

I suck at making polls -

[bcbronc]

I support Isreals right to exist...but that doesn't mean I support their policies or the way they've handled their issues.


i vote for this option.

[Spider]

I cant vote ........ my option isnt up there

[Little44]

I support Isreals right to exist...but that doesn't mean I support their policies or the way they've handled their issues.

Yeah, I hear you, but here is something to consider. If Hezbollah was to drop their weapons and surrender, what would happen? Israel would take the individual terrorists prisoner and pull back to their borders and this war would be over. What do you think would happen if Israel were to drop their weapons and surrender? THEY WOULD GET POUNDED! Hezbollah would be joined by Syria, Egypt, and jihadists from all over the Muslim world to finally "wipe Israel off the map".

This tiny country is surrounded by enemies and has since it's inception. I know it's far fetched, but if there was an extreemest group in Canada that was sending hundreds of rockets over the border into Seattle and the Canadian governmant just stood back and said "We can't control what's going on within our own borders"; you know we would invade to expell the terrorists. Do you think we would be willing to pull back to our borders before the terrorists were wiped out? No matter what the UN or anyone else says, you know we wouldn't.

I hate seeing the civilian deaths in this whole thing on both sides, it's hard to watch. But war is a horrible, awful, and un-humane thing. My mother grew up in Germany during World War II. She has told me stories of the horrors of war as seen through a 5 year olds eyes. My mother's family lost everything of value. Aunts, uncles, and cousins were killed or unaccounted for. My grandfather was captured by Russians (he was unwillingly drafted at the end of the war, but was never part of the Nazi party) and not released until two years after the war. He was pretty much a living skeleton and a basketcase when my grandmother finally found him.

My mother's story was typical of European families effected by the war. In spite of the mentals scars and a healthy fear of war, she supports the Israelis as well as our was in Iraq. My mom hates the civilain and military deaths, but she also knows the costs of living under a tyrannical dictator or under an unholy belif system that places no value on personal freedoms and human life.

[ant1999e]

You and I know this is common sense. But the fools on this board are so brainwashed to hate bush that because the U.S. is backing Israel they hate them to. It's really sad.

[Spider]

You and I know this is common sense. But the fools on this board are so brainwashed to hate bush that because the U.S. is backing Israel they hate them to. It's really sad.
If it was only that easy .........
But look up Sharone and the Masacre , several of them to be exact ...... the occupied territory , where Hezbollah and Hammas lost me was the dirty underhanded tactics of terrorism .... Lke I say there is bad on both sides , this is why I wouldnt mind see both sides wiped out ......I wonder how it feels to pat Israel on the back and say damn good job , with all that blood on thier hands ....... Sad realy .............

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You and I know this is common sense. But the fools on this board are so brainwashed to hate bush that because the U.S. is backing Israel they hate them to. It's really sad.

If you really believe this is all there is to it then you are a bigger fool than I thought.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Where's the option I don't support them or any other country in the ME?

+1 :thumbsup:

Or options like "I support democracy and human rights for all?"

[Atlas]

What about the option

"I support Isreal except they have gone overboard on this and have put themselves in a no win situation"

Huh? Where is this option???

[alkemical]

dammit - make your own poll then

fricken A - quit yer bitchen.

:)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

dammit - make your own poll then

fricken A - quit yer b****en.

:)
LOL

What a bunch of cry babies, eh? :)

[alkemical]

:)

lol

[bendog]

Well ant, I guess there be a lot of fools.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060808/pl_afp/mideastconflictus_060808145141;_ylt=ApehDh8LkoIz0c ZV7aORuS0UvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUC Ul

And yesterday Haartez had an editorial saying essentially that if Israel had taken up any of young Assad's dad's offers to make a peace treaty in exchange for Israel giving up the illegally (according to UN resolution) occupied Golan Heights, then Syria would never have gotten in bed with hezbollah to start with.

Essentially what they're now doing is carving out a "security zone" for the EU to occupy so it can keep the land. According to Israel, only the arabs have to comply with UN resolutions. But, hezbollah is as much a terrorist force as is the IDF.

[SteveTensi13]

Forgot the "Its' Griese's fault" option!

[Meck77]

Where's the option I don't support them or any other country in the ME?

That's what I was looking for.

[Atlas]

dammit - make your own poll then

fricken A - quit yer b****en.

:)

Where is the Damn Griese option???

Really amatures shouldn't be making polls here!!!

[Atlas]

Forgot the "Its' Griese's fault" option!


ooops you beat me to it.

[denver5459]

ooops you beat me to it.
:ROFL

[Rock Chalk]

I suck at making polls -
Dont feel bad, most scientists cant make a good poll either.

Polls are best when there is very distinct sides. Either pro-abortion, anti-abortion or ambivalent for example.

Using ambiguous words like "support" make polls misleading.

Case in point: One poster on this thread said he/she "supported Israel's right to exist but not necessarily their policies" or something to that effect. Have the caveat about not including foreign policy in the question. The answer becomes less clear so, perhaps a multi-question poll on the subject would be in order? One could, afterall, support the right of Israel's existence but be vehemently against their actions in the Gaza Strip, West Bank, Lebanon and even Syria. Or one could not support their right to exist THERE but that they (the Israeli's) do deserve the right to exist SOMEWHERE. However, this poll would not reveal that.

A better poll MIGHT be:
I support Israel's right to exist
I do not support Israel's right to exist.
I do not care one way or another.

Another good poll is a Scale poll.

Do you agree or disagree with the statement "I support Israel's right to exist"
1 - Strongly Disagree
2 - Moderately Disagree
3 - Slightly Disagree
4 - Neutral
5 - Slightly Agree
6 - Moderately Agree
7 - Strongly Agree

It gives a variable answer that covers more ground. In this case, support is the ambiguous word so there are several degrees of support either for or against offered. While it does not give you specific REASONS why people agree or disagree, it would give you a better idea of the support for Israel on this board which is what I think you were after.

JMO.

[cbs1177]

Some news magazine are calling Isreali current war a mistake prone just like rummsy. They gave a fairly valid point in the essay. For instances rely too much on airpower and not sending in the manpower immedilately.

[cbs1177]

On stats and polls I tend to be a little baffle by them. For instance I remeber watching CBS one nite and they asked some Americans who are the typically people on welfare. Of course the racial answers were given. But gasp most of welfare recipents were white. Of course the population at that time was 70 percent white so most would assume more whites then any other ethnic group would be on welfare. Really wasn't a shocker to me. So polls and preception doesn't really do a lot for me.

[alkemical]

Dont feel bad, most scientists cant make a good poll either.

Polls are best when there is very distinct sides. Either pro-abortion, anti-abortion or ambivalent for example.

Using ambiguous words like "support" make polls misleading.

Case in point: One poster on this thread said he/she "supported Israel's right to exist but not necessarily their policies" or something to that effect. Have the caveat about not including foreign policy in the question. The answer becomes less clear so, perhaps a multi-question poll on the subject would be in order? One could, afterall, support the right of Israel's existence but be vehemently against their actions in the Gaza Strip, West Bank, Lebanon and even Syria. Or one could not support their right to exist THERE but that they (the Israeli's) do deserve the right to exist SOMEWHERE. However, this poll would not reveal that.

A better poll MIGHT be:
I support Israel's right to exist
I do not support Israel's right to exist.
I do not care one way or another.

Another good poll is a Scale poll.

Do you agree or disagree with the statement "I support Israel's right to exist"
1 - Strongly Disagree
2 - Moderately Disagree
3 - Slightly Disagree
4 - Neutral
5 - Slightly Agree
6 - Moderately Agree
7 - Strongly Agree

It gives a variable answer that covers more ground. In this case, support is the ambiguous word so there are several degrees of support either for or against offered. While it does not give you specific REASONS why people agree or disagree, it would give you a better idea of the support for Israel on this board which is what I think you were after.

JMO.


I think i think too much, i want to disconnect my brainstem and unplug myself - Rollins ;)

[sbchampbronx]

Its a difficult situation, but what is lost on me is why the U.S. gives such unwaivering support to israel, because they are our "friends"? They don't care about us...Our lending support to Israel damages our rep in the middle east, which is the last place we want to lose ground, and for what?? what has Israel ever done for us?? Its not a mutually beneficial relationship, we give them $$$ every yr. we stick our neck out for them...and what do we get in return? We get more enemies!! Is it the Jewish lobby in washington or are we naive enough to think that the payoff will come some time in the future? Israel is a leech to us, we need to distance ourselves from them

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Its a difficult situation, but what is lost on me is why the U.S. gives such unwaivering support to israel, because they are our "friends"? They don't care about us...Our lending support to Israel damages our rep in the middle east, which is the last place we want to lose ground, and for what?? what has Israel ever done for us?? Its not a mutually beneficial relationship, we give them $$$ every yr. we stick our neck out for them...and what do we get in return? We get more enemies!! Is it the Jewish lobby in washington or are we naive enough to think that the payoff will come some time in the future? Israel is a leech to us, we need to distance ourselves from them

:thumbsup:

Amen!

[broncocalijohn]

Israel has my total support. They are doing what we wont do. They dont take this crap and I am grateful that this is now at issue. Hezbollah wont be in power or crippled. They will carrythemselves to Iran or Syria IMO. Then we know where those two countries stand (like we didnt before).

[BroncoBuff]

I DON'T support Israel because what they are doing - invading and occupying a sovereign nation - should only occur if they:

Are attacked and their sovereignty is IMMEDIATELY threatened
If not that, then they must lay out their case for war. All I've heard is the 2 soldiers being kidnapped. That's not enough for what they're doing. Ohlmert should've, as his forces first attacked, issued a paper or manifesto statng Israel's justification for the war. Simple, succint, CNN-friendly.
They first obtain permission from the U.N. (or at least TRY)

[SteveTensi13]

+1 :thumbsup:

Or options like "I support democracy and human rights for all?"

This coming from an avowed liberal. Oh, thats rich!! I haven't laughed this hard since the "Peace is patriotic" bumper stickers came out!

[BroncoBuff]

LABF didn't vote ....

[Hotrod]

I DON'T support Israel because what they are doing - invading and occupying a sovereign nation - should only occur if they:

Are attacked and their sovereignty is IMMEDIATELY threatened

They were attacked period

If not that, then they must lay out their case for war. All I've heard is the 2 soldiers being kidnapped. That's not enough for what they're doing. Ohlmert should've, as his forces first attacked, issued a paper or manifesto statng Israel's justification for the war. Simple, succint, CNN-friendly.

2 soldiers were kidnapped thats 1 more then enough for what they're doing IMO

They first obtain permission from the U.N. (or at least TRY)

The UN should actually be shouldering a HUGE chunk of the blame here. If they would have at least tried (which they did not) in the last 6 years to implement 1559 and have the military secure the southern boarder the hezb would not have the numbers or hell even the rockets in place to make any of this BS posssilbe.

[BroncoBuff]

Wait .... they were ATTACKED?

News to me .... but I stand corrected on that UN resolution - I have heard about 1559 and the failure to enforce it.

I just think Ohlmert needs some Public Relations 101 ... I'm not the only reasonably well-informed person who is saying, "all this for those two kidnapped soldiers?"

[Hotrod]

Wait .... they were ATTACKED?

News to me .... but I stand corrected on that UN resolution - I have heard about 1559 and the failure to enforce it.

I just think Ohlmert needs some Public Relations 101 ... I'm not the only reasonably well-informed person who is saying, "all this for those two kidnapped soldiers?"

I can certainly agree on the PR aspect.

Either way this thing is a mess that is not going to go away anytime soon :nono:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

This coming from an avowed liberal. Oh, thats rich!! I haven't laughed this hard since the "Peace is patriotic" bumper stickers came out!

???

Were you dropped on your head as a child or something?

[Hogan11]

I just don't care for the fact that the Izzies (who many seem to forget are a foreign power) have so much pull within our goverment and foreign policy.....something that's more often than not, a totally a one way street. I'm just not comfortable with that at all.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm uncomfortable with the fact that Israel is slaughtering innocent Lebanese civilians and destroying Lebanon's infrastructure (preventing medical supplies and food and other humanitarian aid from reaching civilians caught in the crossfire.)

I'm even more uncomfortable with the fact that the usual right-wing nut cases and Christian Zionists are taking the position that Israel is justified in anything and everything it does to Lebanon in the name of defeating Hezbollah.

[SteveTensi13]

Wait .... they were ATTACKED?

News to me .... but I stand corrected on that UN resolution - I have heard about 1559 and the failure to enforce it.

I just think Ohlmert needs some Public Relations 101 ... I'm not the only reasonably well-informed person who is saying, "all this for those two kidnapped soldiers?"

You mean the UN didn't enforce one of its paper resolutions? Heavens to betsy! As far as saying they shouldn't have gone to war over just two kidnapped soldiers, try telling that to the families of these two soldiers! I would think if someone in your family was kidnapped by terrorists that were being harbored by a state you would want your country to do EVERYTHING in its power to seek their release up to and including total inihilation of said state.

First its two soldiers then its taking hostages at an embassy. Oh wait.. That already happened! See what happens when ypu dont do anything!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Things You have To Believe To Be A Republican:

#4 The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.

[SteveTensi13]

Things you have to believe in to be a democrat

1. The UN is our master and is the alpha and omega of American national security.

[BroncoBuff]

Things you have to believe in to be a democrat

1. The UN is our master and is the alpha and omega of American national security.

Sorry ... I'm a democrat, and I said the following should preclude their attack:
They first obtain permission from the U.N. (or at least TRY)

I do NOT think much of the United Nations.

But I see your avatar, Tensi, and I understand your feelings. I have no quarrel with the United States supporting Israel, and in general, I feel great empathy for the Israeli situation. But that does not mean excusing any and all acts of war. I still haven't received much in the way of justification for war here other than the two soldiers ... which brings me to your VERY disturbing statement:

If someone in your family was kidnapped by terrorists that were being harbored by a state you would want your country to do EVERYTHING in its power to seek their release up to and including total inihilation of said state.
(In the first place, they're not being harbored by a "state,"), and I realize all this is just spouting off on a message board, but that quote shows a starkly naive understanding of international relations and diplomacy, as well as basic human sociology and even anthropology.

USAF spy pilot Francis Gary Powers was shot down over the USSR in 1960 and held ther as a spy for TWO YEARS. Had Eisenhower/Kennedy followed your "total inihilation' logic, it might have virtually ended the human species ...

But to heck with the history lesson - what about April 2001? When a rogue Chinese fighter pilot struck and crippled a USAF Aries reconnaisance plane. They managed to land, but the crew was held in China for TWELVE DAYS. Again, your 'total inihilation' logic could've ended much of human civilization.

Don't let raw anger dictate your response. That almost never yields a good result.

[BroncoBuff]

I'm glad §pider is with me on the lack of Israeli public relations savvy.

Again, I am reasonably well-informed, and I'm not clear on their justification other than the two soldiers.

They should really mount a campaign to inform people of just exactly what Hezbollah has been doing to provoke this action.

Heck, I STILL REMEMBER the video in my head of the Golan Heights in 1982, and how the Palestinians were lobbing mortars and rockets into Israel from above there, and I agreed at the time with the Israeli actions.

So I am not immune to accepting their justification for attacking, I just wanna know what it is!

[defenseman]

Hezbollah will have to invade israel before some folks will buy in on attacking them. Yep, that is real smart, wait till they are at your door step, and they probably feel the same about the US and the war on terrorism. take that tact, we'll all be dead in twenty-five years or so. I gaurantee it...dman

*the biggest threat to the US isn't hezbollah or al queda agreed. It's some of our own far left who are permeating this country. they will bring us all down from the inside. Really sad to see the country go down in flames at the hands of a some left wing zealots. Sad indeed..dman

[SteveTensi13]

The democratic party has evolved into a "fifth column" whose purpose is to undermine national security, demoralize our troops who are in harm's way and give and aid and comfort to the enemy.

Go ahead libs attack me, but if we had the dems today in WWII, we would have never finished that war or would have settled for a negotiated peace. You know it!

[alkemical]

Hezbollah will have to invade israel before some folks will buy in on attacking them. Yep, that is real smart, wait till they are at your door step, and they probably feel the same about the US and the war on terrorism. take that tact, we'll all be dead in twenty-five years or so. I gaurantee it...dman

*the biggest threat to the US isn't hezbollah or al queda agreed. It's some of our own far left who are permeating this country. they will bring us all down from the inside. Really sad to see the country go down in flames at the hands of a some left wing zealots. Sad indeed..dman


Dman, take your perisocpe, and turn it 180deg - look it's the same people but on the right

[alkemical]

The democratic party has evolved into a "fifth column" whose purpose is to undermine national security, demoralize our troops who are in harm's way and give and aid and comfort to the enemy.

Go ahead libs attack me, but if we had the dems today in WWII, we would have never finished that war or would have settled for a negotiated peace. You know it!


What about the current "Republicans" that expand Gov't, and give corporations alot of corporate welfare, and expansive use of data mining? I mean really in "das kapital" - the end result of capitalism is very few choices and state control over most aspects of your daily life.

We are turning into china and china is turning into us.

[bendog]

d-man = neocon.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I have no quarrel with the United States supporting Israel, and in general, I feel great empathy for the Israeli situation. But that does not mean excusing any and all acts of war.

More of those pesky "nuance" things Mensa candidates like SteveCoulter13 and dman have such trouble with. :D

[Rigs11]

The democratic party has evolved into a "fifth column" whose purpose is to undermine national security, demoralize our troops who are in harm's way and give and aid and comfort to the enemy.

Go ahead libs attack me, but if we had the dems today in WWII, we would have never finished that war or would have settled for a negotiated peace. You know it!
And the repugs have nearly bankrupted this country, lost almost all our credibility in the world. Increased terrorism,trounced all over the constitution.

[SteveTensi13]

They should really mount a campaign to inform people of just exactly what Hezbollah has been doing to provoke this action.


Why on Gods green earth would Israel waste her time to "inform" people on why its defending itself. A nuclear bomb could explode over Tel Aviv and people like gaffney would justify it away. Israel is not interested in winning any popularity contest. It is in a war for its very survival, screw popular opinion.

[SteveTensi13]

In looking at the poll I see someone voted "I dont support them because they are prodemocracy" LABF is that you or maybe gaffney?

[SteveTensi13]

Disregard LABF and gaffney, some newbie named "floridaresident". Must be one of those disenfranchised types!

[bcbronc]

Why on Gods green earth would Israel waste her time to "inform" people on why its defending itself. A nuclear bomb could explode over Tel Aviv and people like gaffney would justify it away. Israel is not interested in winning any popularity contest. It is in a war for its very survival, screw popular opinion.


i'd imagine palestine can relate to fighting for it's survival.

[baja]

In looking at the poll I see someone voted "I dont support them because they are prodemocracy" LABF is that you or maybe gaffney?


psssit. It's an open poll that's why there is a sentence above the poll that says warning this is an open poll. Click on any % number and you can see who voted for what genius.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

In looking at the poll I see someone voted "I dont support them because they are prodemocracy" LABF is that you or maybe gaffney?

:loopy:

Yeah - I'm just another Democrat against democracy.

That's the ticket. :dummy:

[SteveTensi13]

i'd imagine palestine can relate to fighting for it's survival.

Palestinians remind me of the kid who keeps throwing rocks at the chained up neighbors dog and then gets mauled when the dog breaks loose. Go get 'em rover!!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

d-man = neocon.
Yep, I seen this as soon as he started posting here.

[alkemical]

Yep, I seen this as soon as he started posting here.


In defense for dman. He's honest and he lets you know where he's at. Not to mention he's able to think for himself - I disagree with dman on somethings. He's much to 'pro gov't' for me - but it's also the process of the military too.

Not to mention, i did civilian work for his 'company' and those guys do work that's very different and you need Dman types working that job.

[Hotrod]

In defense for dman. He's honest and he lets you know where he's at. Not to mention he's able to think for himself - I disagree with dman on somethings. He's much to 'pro gov't' for me - but it's also the process of the military too.
.

Agree 100%

[bendog]

I disagree. Sometimes he seems like a typical died (-: in the wool conservative who simply cannot/will not break party line - hence bush is bad but he's better than any dem could possibly be - which is illogical but consistent. But sometimes he has some really neocon takes.

[alkemical]

I disagree. Sometimes he seems like a typical died (-: in the wool conservative who simply cannot/will not break party line - hence bush is bad but he's better than any dem could possibly be - which is illogical but consistent. But sometimes he has some really neocon takes.


He's the yin to your yang ;)

[Old Dude]

RE: the poll

You know, honestly, I don't know what to think. There have been times when I've felt more sympathetic for one side or the other in this conflict, and then they did something outrageous or brutal, or some new fact came to my attention and then I waffled back the other way.

With all due respect to all the blood and horror and catastrophe, it's sometimes like two kids fighting on a playground, and both of them are claiming that the other one started it. Sometimes, I feel like they both ought to be sent to detention.

At the same time, it's not just a "misunderstanding." The folks involved want exactly the same real estate - - the same olive trees. I'm sure that there are plenty of reasonable people on both sides who could find a way to live peacefully along side one another, but it doesn't take many radicals to start the trouble brewing, and there is no shortage of radicals around there. I'd probably be a radical too, if some member of my family was killed by the other group. So the vendettas just keep piling up.

On top of that, you have people (on both sides) who don't even live in the region, but who have their own vested interests in formenting instability, or in supporting one side or the other.

Historically, there have been plenty of situations like this, and they usually wound up with one side finally annihilating the other, or (more often) both sides being taken out by a third party aggressor with its own agenda.

I'm sorry to say that I think this will end the same way, sooner or later.

[defenseman]

RE: the poll

You know, honestly, I don't know what to think. There have been times when I've felt more sympathetic for one side or the other in this conflict, and then they did something outrageous or brutal, or some new fact came to my attention and then I waffled back the other way.

With all due respect to all the blood and horror and catastrophe, it's sometimes like two kids fighting on a playground, and both of them are claiming that the other one started it. Sometimes, I feel like they both ought to be sent to detention.

At the same time, it's not just a "misunderstanding." The folks involved want exactly the same real estate - - the same olive trees. I'm sure that there are plenty of reasonable people on both sides who could find a way to live peacefully along side one another, but it doesn't take many radicals to start the trouble brewing, and there is no shortage of radicals around there. I'd probably be a radical too, if some member of my family was killed by the other group. So the vendettas just keep piling up.

On top of that, you have people (on both sides) who don't even live in the region, but who have their own vested interests in formenting instability, or in supporting one side or the other.

Historically, there have been plenty of situations like this, and they usually wound up with one side finally annihilating the other, or (more often) both sides being taken out by a third party aggressor with its own agenda.

I'm sorry to say that I think this will end the same way, sooner or later.

most likely , agreed. And, it is unfortunate, but it is the way it is...dman

[bendog]

I dunno Old Dude. Seems to me the leaders of Israel, Arafat in Fatah, hamas and hezbollah all give their constituencies what they want to hear. Unfortunely Arafat never told the Pales they weren't getting back inside Israel ... theri property is gone; now they may get paid, but that's a different story.

There's a hefty number of Isralies who want all the land. A majority thinks the pales will keep shooting regardless.

Hamas gave the pales less corruption, but they keep bombing. However, they don't seem to have public support for that.

Frankly, assuming Nasrallah actually speaks truthfully, I find him to be one of the more honest ones in telling people what he can and cannot do, and so far I haven't seen a lie.

As we're seeing in Iraq, you can't nation build when the populace is armed. And, to finally settle it, I'm afraid that's what it'll come to. I'm wondering if King Abdul of Jordan would accept the WB back for keeping the Pales from shooting at Israel. Probably not, but ...

[bendog]

D-Man, I lost the thread vis a vis Bushii and the neocons using Israel to attack Syria. Here's the logic.

http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/syriablog/2004/05/neo-con-plans-for-syria.htm

Landis is obviously anti-bush, but his quotes of the neocons are not disputable

He refers to the Jewish neocons document A Clean Break, urging peace initiatives like WJC's be abandoned and a use of military options

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1438.htm

Then on 3-7-06 Cheney makes a defiant speech, in light of the Iraq debacle, to the Israeli neocon group using the very words "clean break."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/07/AR2006030700739.html

The theory of those suspecting the neocons in Israel and her plan an attack is that if a pretext for an attack on Syria can be found, then a pretext for an attack on Iran can be found, e.g. they support hezbollah.

[defenseman]

D-Man, I lost the thread vis a vis Bushii and the neocons using Israel to attack Syria. Here's the logic.

http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/syriablog/2004/05/neo-con-plans-for-syria.htm

Landis is obviously anti-bush, but his quotes of the neocons are not disputable

He refers to the Jewish neocons document A Clean Break, urging peace initiatives like WJC's be abandoned and a use of military options

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1438.htm

Then on 3-7-06 Cheney makes a defiant speech, in light of the Iraq debacle, to the Israeli neocon group using the very words "clean break."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/07/AR2006030700739.html

The theory of those suspecting the neocons in Israel and her plan an attack is that if a pretext for an attack on Syria can be found, then a pretext for an attack on Iran can be found, e.g. they support hezbollah.

I see the logic , a case can be made to a degree. I definitely see the advantage of the israeli's doing our bidding , so to speak. And , in a sense, it definitely helps us, IF the israeli's do it and NOT US. We cannot support more bloodshed being wrapped around the axel in iraq and all. Then again, since the bowling ball is already rolling down the hill, it may be tough to stop. IRAN, if they had their wits about them , WOULD call us on this. If I'm the little hitler, thats exactly what I do and see who's bluffing. Could get interesting around here, that's for damn sure.....dman

Cheney doesn't know how to handle a weapon, he's an idiot as far as I'm concerned. Rumsfeld will hide behind Iraq if we lock horns with Iran, he'll be useless. Again, I expect the little hitler in Iran to call us on this stuff. Not good at all...

Just for the record. I don't know what a NEOCON is and quite honestly, don't care but I'm sure you'll tell me. Second, I'm the guy in his off road, 12 gauge over under, and a PK walther Baretta strapped under the arm pit. Cowboy boots, wrangler jeans and dungaree shirt. An occassional cigar. No suit for me , sorry bout that......weddings and wakes is for suits...dman

[bendog]

Most likely we wouldn't have the little hitler but for invading Iraq.

Anyway, if the Pales have a settlement that most support, and if the vast maj of muslim nations support the settlement, Iran would have to modify its opposition to Israel. The reason is that they really want prestige. Iran wants to be the nation the other muslim nations look to for both the modle of govt and international support. That's why they want a nuke. Now Isreal is the only one who can say ... "you bastards do XXXX and we'll launch." Iran wants that power not only cause the little hitler hates Israel but because he'll look good to other muslims. The little hitler couldn't afford to buck the majority if the majority saw the Pales accepting a settlement.

As for the nuke, Egypt, whose had the know how to get a nuke for years, Jordan, Saudis, Algeria, Kuwait, UAE, Quatar, are all opposed or very scared of Iran having a nuke. They want peace and stability - for a variety of reasons from just hanging onto power to actually helping their citizens.

[defenseman]

Most likely we wouldn't have the little hitler but for invading Iraq.

Anyway, if the Pales have a settlement that most support, and if the vast maj of muslim nations support the settlement, Iran would have to modify its opposition to Israel. The reason is that they really want prestige. Iran wants to be the nation the other muslim nations look to for both the modle of govt and international support. That's why they want a nuke. Now Isreal is the only one who can say ... "you bastards do XXXX and we'll launch." Iran wants that power not only cause the little hitler hates Israel but because he'll look good to other muslims. The little hitler couldn't afford to buck the majority if the majority saw the Pales accepting a settlement.

As for the nuke, Egypt, whose had the know how to get a nuke for years, Jordan, Saudis, Algeria, Kuwait, UAE, Quatar, are all opposed or very scared of Iran having a nuke. They want peace and stability - for a variety of reasons from just hanging onto power to actually helping their citizens.
This is the reason little hitler is in iran, to do this. These countries know it, trust me, he gets one. No telling what will happen..dman

*there is more to it than prestige, trust me. and the other countries, DON't want anything to do with this guy. As far as the Pales accepting the settlement, well you are right, they bite, he will stand down.

Oh, by the way, the US and France literally just got done with their proposal. It only deals with UN forces under chapter 6 vice 7. Yet to be bought off by anyone but copies are being sent to lebanon and israel...dman

BY THE WAY: find me a good DEM, who has HIS not HER head screwed on and I'll vote for him, if he is worth his salt. We'll see what they come up with. Hillary?, she needs to be launched out of tube 4 from test depth.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

In defense for dman. He's honest and he lets you know where he's at. Not to mention he's able to think for himself

I disagree.

90% of his posts boil down to "liberals are full of sh_t - even though I can't really explain why or challenge the substance of anything they say."

He rarely makes an effort to formulate an actual counterargument or to disconfirm facts. Indeed, facts never seem to play any role in whatever process he uses to form his opinions or arrive at his conclusions.

He rarely supports his assertions with sources or links.

[alkemical]

I disagree.

90% of his posts boil down to "liberals are full of sh_t - even though I can't really explain why or challenge the substance of anything they say."

He rarely makes an effort to formulate an actual counterargument or to disconfirm facts. Indeed, facts never seem to play any role in whatever process he uses to form his opinions or arrive at his conclusions.

He rarely supports his assertions with sources or links.


I don't think so, i've had conversations with Dman, we come to an impasse at times - but that's how it is.

[defenseman]

I disagree.

90% of his posts boil down to "liberals are full of sh_t - even though I can't really explain why or challenge the substance of anything they say."

He rarely makes an effort to formulate an actual counterargument or to disconfirm facts. Indeed, facts never seem to play any role in whatever process he uses to form his opinions or arrive at his conclusions.

He rarely supports his assertions with sources or links.

I won't attempt to convince someone, who will not be convinced. I'll give my point of view, my reasons (supported or not), and on the table it goes. If you buy , fine, it not?, thats fine too. I quite honestly, don't trust a whole lot of sources. Events as they are, are enough for me to make decisions for the most part. In any case, I won't waste time trying to convince anyone whether or not they should agree or disagree, that's their call...dman

[defenseman]

I don't think so, i've had conversations with Dman, we come to an impasse at times - but that's how it is.

In life, this is often the case. Sometimes, you agree to disagree, and you carry on smartly. That's about the jist of it..thanks for the endorsement...dman

-with respect to LABF's take:
*Liberals are not full of S*&T. Just misguided sometimes from where I sit, not all the time though. There have been plenty of good ideas that have been sprung from a liberal point of view. I will say plenty of conservatives have shot ideas down just because they came from a liberal, and visa versa, that's wrong also. You gotta listen , and make a call. I'm sure they may think I'm off kilter a bit sometimes also. That is absolutely fine with me. I certianly don't go to bed every night worrying about changing any liberal members of society point of view. I've have more important things in life to accomplish and, that is for politicians to worry about, not me.

[alkemical]

In life, this is often the case. Sometimes, you agree to disagree, and you carry on smartly. That's about the jist of it..thanks for the endorsement...dman

-with respect to LABF's take:
*Liberals are not full of S*&T. Just misguided sometimes from where I sit, not all the time though. There have been plenty of good ideas that have been sprung from a liberal point of view. I will say plenty of conservatives have shot ideas down just because they came from a liberal, and visa versa, that's wrong also. You gotta listen , and make a call. I'm sure they may think I'm off kilter a bit sometimes also. That is absolutely fine with me. I certianly don't go to bed every night worrying about changing any liberal members of society point of view. I've have more important things in life to accomplish and, that is for politicians to worry about, not me.


Dman, for me basically you are a bit more pro gov't where i'm more pro civilian - in the middle is where the answers are IMO.