REALITY CHECK: Shanahan is a Master Personnel Man

[BroncoBuff]

If you listen long enough to the Shanny-haters whining that Mike is "inept" at free agents moves, you'll notice it's the same mantra over and over and over: " d a l e c a r t e r d a r r y l g a r d e n e r d a l e c a r t e r d a r r y l g a r d e n e r d a l e c a r t e r d a r r y l g a r d e n e r d a l e c a r t e r d a r r y l g a r d e n e r ... "

But if you look past this, and really study this roster, you'll find Shanahan is an EXCELLENT UFA evaluator and an EXCELLENT trader. He has personally rebuilt the 6-10 1999 team, which lost 4 Hall-of Famers on offense (Elway, Zim, Sharpe, TD), into a home-field AFC Championship team just 6 years later (with 3 playoff appearances on the way). You don't see many teams pulling that off .... look at the Cowboys, Packers, 49ers - the other "Teams of the 90s" ... they've fallen so very far after their big runs, while the Broncos have not.


So, more than just the big mistakes they keep harping about, take a closer look - here are Shanahan's home-field AFC Championship FA's and trades, man for man, with a couppla new FAs added:TRADES J.Engleberger -- for - Willie Middlebrooks*
Champ Bailey -- for - Clinton Portis
.+ Tatum Bell -- for -- " " " "
Javon Walker -- for - 2nd rd pick (WR Greg Jennings, W. Mich. - Ian Gold's cousin)
Gerard Warren - for - 4th rd pick (DB Ant. Perkins, Oklahoma - 1 game in '05)
Ebenezr Ekuban-for - Reuben Droughns
.+ Mike Myers - for -- " " " "
Todd Sauerbrun-for - 6th rd pick (DE Stanley McClover, Auburn) + P Jason Baker


UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENTS ACQUIREDCourtney Brown
Jake Plummer
John Lynch
Stephen Alexander
Ian Gold
Nick Ferguson
Kenard Lang
* Willie Middlebrooks
Kyle Johnson
Keith Burns
Demetrin Veal
Charlie Adams
Roc Alexander
Mike Bell
Patrick Chukwurah
Curome Cox
Ron Dayne
Todd Devoe
Cornell Green
David Kircus
Corey Jackson
Louis Green
Mike Leach
Matt Lepsis
UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENTS LOSTAnton Palepoi
Jeb Putzier
Mike Anderson
Matt Mauck
Trevor Pryce


RESTRICTED FAs LOSTBertrand Berry
Kelly Herndon
Reggie Hayward
Kenoy Kennedy
Donnie Spragan
NOTE: The Restricted Lost list is misleading actually. Losing these very good
restricted free agents is a compliment to your player acquisition and
development skills. Shanny almost never signs RFAs, prolly cause he
develops talent so well. Thereare some painful losses here, sure, but usually
offer sheets from elsewhere have poison pill clauses (Bertie Berry), or you
have two guys at the same position and can keep just one (eg: Lenny Walls
stayed, Kelly Herndon left)

This was a TEXTBOOK rebuilding job. And these are just Shanny's FA's and trades ... add in this and last year's A- and A+ drafts, and Shanny can be rightly viewed as a personnel master now ... the way he stockpiled and moved and juked with draft picks this year will bear fruit when Jay Cutler leads us to SBs in 2010, 2012 and "SB L" in 2016.

So forget all the "d a l e c a r t e r d a r r y l g a r d e n e r d a l e c a r t e r d a r r y l g a r d e n e r" myopic nonsense. And if they bring up Clarett? Remind them that the pick we used on Clarett was a completely unexpected comp pick For Ian Gold ... who came back unrestricted that very year!! :giggle: (and the other 3rd rd comp pick - the one we expected to get - was Dominique Foxworth, now a starter/nickelback fixture for the next decade.)

THE POINT IS - Shanny has balls of granite, and as such, he takes flyers - big risk, big reward flyers. Sometimes they result in errors ... but if you dwell on these errors (the trees) you'll miss the guys here now (the forest).

[Vladimir]

Great post

[BroncoBuff]

... and what about the latter-day Super Bowl teams that have fallen?

Years AFTER the Broncos fell? Like the Ravens, Rams, Titans, Raiders and Bucs?

We haven't fallen as far as any of them either (with the exception of 1999 after losing 4 Hall-of-Famers on offense .... Zim we lost in 98, but you get the picture I'm painting here).

[backup qb]

nice work bronco buff.

I would have to agree. As a bronco fan, I can't and don't want to imagine what life would be like with anyone else running the show. Could you take it if we had a Bill Callahan, Dave Campo, Ron Turner, Norv Turner, etc. Time to puke.

[Steve Sewell]

This is why a lot of people hate Shanahan...because he is just so ****in' good.

[Archie]

Absolutely great post...

Two and a half years ago before Denver had made the playoffs again Shanny's personnel record was looking quite dubious. He's done some pretty amazing work over the last two years to swing the score the other way.

If this draft class pans out the way it could no one will ever question Shanny again. But in the days after Middlebrooks, Nash, Kennison, it was easy to begin to wonder.

[Natedogg]

Buff great post.

Nice work with the formatting was well. :thumbsup:

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Great post BB.Despite the whining, the Mastermind has done much better in the draft than most teams too.

[watermock]

Very good post but you missed a couple things.

Anderson, Pryce and Putz were not lost due to free agency. They were cut while under contract.

I also noticed the entire 2002 class is pretty much missing. The rest of the whole class on D that year are all gone. That's why we see so many free agents on D despite concentrating on Defense for several years till this year. With all the defensive drafts, we have Wilson, an old timer left if you don't count last years draft. Players like D. Davis, Pope, Hunt Harris all come to mind among others. I understand that drafting is a crap shoot, but we drafted hard at D and nothing till last year really panned out. Even Bailey came from an offensive player drafted. Edit: I forgot that D.J. Williams was in 2004.

No big deal, but you have to take into account how we drafted so heavy on Defense with not much to show for it till last year. We are obviously very good at dumpster diving and free agents tho. Very very good. Still, you can't discount a couple real FA turds that were expensive in Carter and IHOP.

Still a good argument that we are always snooping around for gems in the rough. We just seem to draft better on offense.

If your going to say personnel master, I think you have to include the drafts, not just free agents. particuliarly on defense.

[fdf]

This was a TEXTBOOK rebuilding job. And these are just Shanny's FA's and trades ... add in this and last year's A- and A+ drafts, and Shanny can be rightly viewed as a personnel master now ... the way he stockpiled and moved and juked with draft picks this year will bear fruit when Jay Cutler leads us to SBs in 2010, 2012 and "SB L" in 2016.

I agree in all but one regard. Something happened in the past two drafts that is different. Denver sucked at drafting until last year. The FA moves were necessary to build a team with almost no contribution from the draft. So, while the FA moves were (generally) great, they were bandages to repair the self-inflicted wounds from one terrible draft after another.

The change in the past two years is not just random chance. There is clearly a different logic to drafting than there was before. I welcome it because combined with Shanahan's other enormous talents, Denver with a consistently good draft is going to shake up the league.

In regard to the IHOP and Carter signings, I don't mind trying a retread. I just mind it when the terms break the cap for years to come. That was the mistake with Carter and IHOP. So they were cancers. Without a cap-breaking deal, you just cut 'em loose. It's clear that lesson has been learned by the FO. We haven't made a single cancer/cap mistake recently.

Shanahan is building a juggernaut. I see it coming.

[MrPeepers]

apparantly the pick we gave for javon alker went to greg jennings and he's been the talk of packers camp.

anyone have news regarding him, i kind of got the impression he was the strongest looking rookie of all the teams this year and he was being compared to robert brooks with his route running, hands, and concentration.

[GonzoLays]

I think the team's record since the Super Bowl years is more of a reflection on Shanny's ability to coach then so his ability as a personnel man.

Let's be frank here, we are not one of the better drafting teams in NFL nor do we have an illustrious record in signing FA's, especially along the defensive line.

Our FA busts are numerous:

Eddie Kenninson
Bobby Jenkins (sp) some big time FA safety we signed years ago
Dale Carter
Daryl Gardener
Denard Walker
Keith Washington
Kavika Pittman

All these guys were given seven figure signing bonus's and were completely ineffective in a Bronco's uniform.

And let's not even get into all the cheap, reclamation projects we have signed over the years (Leon Lett, Luther Ellis) who were complete non-factors. Or the huge amounts of 1st day draft busts (Travis McGriff, Paul Tovessi, Dorsett Davis...etc).

Shanahan's ability to coach is second to none, that's why his poor roster management has not bitten him in the caboose yet. He has long been winning with teams that are inferior in talent. If he had a real personnel man, who scouted all year long and made his OWN decisions about roster needs, we would probably of had another championship by now.

Now, I'm not saying he is the worst personnel guy in the guy in the league, but he is nowhere near being labeled as master at it.

[Natedogg]

Shanny's biggest mistake is conspiciously absent here. SOB. He did more dammage to this team than either ihop or carter.

And I'll admit it. I supported him for a while. :hitself:

[Natedogg]

Our FA busts are numerous:

Eddie Kenninson
Bobby Jenkins (sp) some big time FA safety we signed years ago
Dale Carter
Daryl Gardener
Denard Walker
Keith Washington
Kavika Pittman


I'd say Walker and Pittman were stopgaps who preformed pretty admirably. Quitterson, we all know the story. To be honest I barely remember Jenkins and Washington. I think their "seven figure bonus" probably started with the number 1, not too much in the NFL.

True, Carter and Ihop were garbage.

Also who was the DE free agent we got from atlanta in 99 (maybe)? Now that guy was a turd.

[watermock]

I think that overall, we have done a very good job with FA's. Our limited offensive drafts sans MoC have been more than adequate. Our last two drafts appear to grade out great IMO. Still, Gold came back as a cut FA from TB, so he's recycled, and Bailey was a trade, not drafted. Some of this lay in the fact Denver hasn't drafted inside the top 10 for lord who knows. We forgot Willie Middlebrooks. We got something for him, but he was promtly cut one of the worst D's in football. He's back, but for a first rounder, he doesn't seem to have much of a shot making it on the roster. I haven't heard anything on him honestly.

One thing for sure, we aren't scared to bring in street FA's that can contribute and we are very good at trades. One real problem seems to be that the more we pay a FA, the worse they play. (Not you Champ, your earning your money).

[GonzoLays]

And just to give you an example on how good Shanahan is at coaching, he took a team that started the following players to playoffs:

Anton Palepoi DE (out of the league)
Mario Fatafahi DT (out of the league)
Monstanto Pope DT (out of the league)
Ellis Johsnon DT (out of the league)
Lenny Walls CB ( fighting for a roster post in KC)
Kelly Herdon CB (seahawks nickleback)

The man can coach. Of this there is no doubt. But acquiring blue chip assests with Pat Bowlen's millions in the free agent market? I think not.

When Shanahan has top teir talent, you get back to back Super Bowls. When you give him subpar to mediocre talent like we have had here for the past seven years (outside of last year), the most you get is a struggle to make it in the playoffs.

[defenseman]

He still needs to rachet it up now, and get not only past the AFC championship game, but into and win the superbowl. Personnel moves, great, now ensure you investment in talent gets you the ring. This is the only true measuring stick..dman

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I wouldn't say he's a "master." I agree with GonzoLays. He's a better X's and O's guy than he is GM.

[Florida_Bronco]

I wouldn't say he's a "master." I agree with GonzoLays. He's a better X's and O's guy than he is GM.

He's not the GM.

He also added alot of FA signings that were crucial to us winning back to back SuperBowls.

[watermock]

Aren't those contradictory statements? Sundquist has plenty to do and I'm sure sets the table looking for and at players but Shanahan pretty much rules the roost. It's honestly just splitting hairs.

[Tredici]

Cause and effect. Extremely good X and O men have their teams in contention. Contending teams don't get top ten draft picks. -- Unless they stockpile a bunch through trades and move up to grab a potential franchise QB - the draft after appearing in the AFC Championship game.

Shanny's on the game in both venues. How about finding a Coach/GM who has done better? There must be someone out there who has never made a personnel mistake.

[Bronco Billy]

Great thread. :approve: I wouldn't put Javon Walker up there just yet, as he's never played a regular season game with us. Even though he is having a strong camp according to our guys.

I also agree that Shanny's mastery is in coaching, but he does have the balls to take a chance on someone. While we have had numerous busts, we've also been able to develop some into good role players.

Regardless of what Shanny excels in, he is the winningest coach in Broncos history and has shown us the Promised land! That is all that really matters.

[Florida_Bronco]

Cause and effect. Extremely good X and O men have their teams in contention. Contending teams don't get top ten draft picks. -- Unless they stockpile a bunch through trades and move up to grab a potential franchise QB - the draft after appearing in the AFC Championship game.

Shanny's on the game in both venues. How about finding a Coach/GM who has done better? There must be someone out there who has never made a personnel mistake.

Well we COULD have the excellent drafting skills of the Chiefs. I sure wish we would have had the foresight to draft these impact players...

Percy Snow
Harvey Williams
Matt Blundin
Greg Hill
Donnell Bennett
Chris Penn
Trezell Jenkins
Kevin Lockett
Rashaan Shehee
Mike Cloud
Sylvester Morris
William Bartee
Eric Downing
Ryan Sims
Junior Siavii
Kris Wilson

[watermock]

Every team has draft busts. Do we accept mediocrity here like Chorf fans? I found it funny when awhile back Bob said "Us" in reference to the Broncos. I know he peeked out of the dark closet for his "alternative lifestyle"...it's time to "Man up" and confess. On both venues.

[Florida_Bronco]

Do we accept mediocrity here like Chorf fans?

Hell no!

[Bronco Billy]

Shanny's on the game in both venues. How about finding a Coach/GM who has done better? There must be someone out there who has never made a personnel mistake.


I found one!

[Bronco Billy]

Dammit Mock! _i_O_i_ Beat me to it.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I notice that the draft picks are conspiciuously absent, especially since Shanny's drafting from the 3rd round on has been particularly atrocious for the past 5-6 years. That's a pretty big part of being GM. We went over this multiple times before the draft. Shanny's rep as a great drafter is from his hit rate in the 1st (fantastic, especially for how low they draft) and his RB hits.

He's pulled 3 starters from the 3rd round and later since 2001 (Heyward, Putzier, and Hamilton), and 2 of those guys are gone.

[Steve Sewell]

I wouldn't say he's a compulsive "masturbater." I am though.

Fixed it for you

[GonzoLays]

Cause and effect. Extremely good X and O men have their teams in contention. Contending teams don't get top ten draft picks. -- Unless they stockpile a bunch through trades and move up to grab a potential franchise QB - the draft after appearing in the AFC Championship game.



That makes no sense. Regardless of his record, does Shanahan not have the same amount of draft picks and cap space as any other team? Pro Bowl caliber players are found throughout the draft and free agency. So who give a doodly who how about not having top 10 picks or being competitive ever year. That does nothing to excuse how poorly we have drafted in the past seven years. I mean, how many GM's have traded up to draft a guy in the secound round who never even made the team (Paul Tovessi)? There have been some huge blunders.

How about finding a Coach/GM who has done better?

How many coaches in this league have absolute power like Shanahan? 1? 2? Whatever the number is, is not like we have a lot to go by here.

There must be someone out there who has never made a personnel mistake.

No one is blaming him for make a mistake or two, we are talking the inordinate amount of FA busts he has signed in the past seven years. He is definitely not the mastermind of personnel men.

[watermock]

There are several reasons you bounce off the cap. The fact is that those players are generally off the cap, notably IHOP and the released Pryce will be soon as well. Griese and T.D. are off the books. We are not as bad off as you might assume.

No, we don't get the same draft picks. I don't even like top 10 picks. We got Cutler for a 5-6 year bargain. Rod's very high number is a product of many restructurings. Al Wilson is at the high end of his contract but still playing at a very high level. I honestly don't see how we are so up against the cap, but we have about 5 players making very good money. Rod, Wilson, Lepsis, Warren, Jake isn't even overpaid, Cutler was a bargain. We don't have a high priced LT. Nalen makes good but he has also redone I believe. Jake has too. There is nothing new with this. Most of the dead money came off the books last and this year.

[Atlas]

Well we COULD have the excellent drafting skills of the Chiefs. I sure wish we would have had the foresight to draft these impact players...

Percy Snow
Harvey Williams
Matt Blundin
Greg Hill
Donnell Bennett
Chris Penn
Trezell Jenkins
Kevin Lockett
Rashaan Shehee
Mike Cloud
Sylvester Morris
William Bartee
Eric Downing
Ryan Sims
Junior Siavii
Kris Wilson

People bash Shanny's drafts but all teams drafts look like the Cheeps here. Unless you are drafting in the top 10 you are going to have a lot of flops. Shanny does a lot better than most teams drafting from the 20's most of the time. Baltimore and NE are the best drafting teams in the league but Shanny isn't too far off.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Well we COULD have the excellent drafting skills of the Chiefs.

Why even compared yourself to the pathetic Chiefs? If you have to do that, it's not a good sign.

[Mediator12]

The major point is that they have learned from mistakes and adjusted to the new NFL FA. It has taken teams awhile and much consideration to make these changes, but Now the broncos have a legit title contender and the depth is getting much better as well.

Someone asked about the draft philosophy and here is the answer I think. They have targeted players in the draft the last two years who have the ability to make the team right now. Less "potential picks", besides Clarett, and more guys who fit the way they play.

Some people have different drafting philosophies and the Broncos have really changed as their depth has increased. The sheer number of picks means very little, versus guys that might actually survive after TC. They dealt a High #2 for a proven WR, traded a bunch of times to get to #11 and get Cutler, found steals in Marshall and Dumervil, and drafted OL that are in the brocos mold. They really made great use of their resources the last two years.

[Mediator12]

And just to give you an example on how good Shanahan is at coaching, he took a team that started the following players to playoffs:

Anton Palepoi DE (out of the league)
Mario Fatafahi DT (out of the league)
Monstanto Pope DT (out of the league)
Ellis Johsnon DT (out of the league)
Lenny Walls CB ( fighting for a roster post in KC)
Kelly Herdon CB (seahawks nickleback)

The man can coach. Of this there is no doubt. But acquiring blue chip assests with Pat Bowlen's millions in the free agent market? I think not.

When Shanahan has top teir talent, you get back to back Super Bowls. When you give him subpar to mediocre talent like we have had here for the past seven years (outside of last year), the most you get is a struggle to make it in the playoffs.

While Palepoi and Ellis Johnson rarely started, Donnie Spragan, Jashon Sykes, and Darius Holland did.

The funny thing about this post though is you credit this to Shanahan and NOT COYER. Last time I checked, shanny was drawing up offensive plays and not the defense ones.

I have repeatedly said that it was amazing what Coyer has done with table scraps in this league. Consistently putting together a defense that has been top 6 against the run, top 5 overall twice, and set the Broncos single season Points allowed record last year having faced more passes than any other team in the league and struggling in the red zone. I want to see what the old dude does with some legit DL.

[watermock]

Or if we would of nailed some defensive draft picks. We are so obviously better at evaluationg offensive talent than defensive. Yet, Coyer has managed to shut down with rejects for two years running.

[Garcia Bronco]

I think as an organization the Broncos are top tier. Certainly the best in our division, maybe the best in the conference. The draft is a crap shoot, so is free agency, but less so than the draft. When you factor in the cap, losing players, and the sheer uncertainty...I feel very confident that we have the best staff in the business at fielding a complete team every season. 32 wins the past 3 seasons. That's awesome no matter which way you slice it.

[NorthPABroncFan]

My $0.02... My take is that Shanahan/Sundquist (I would maintain Shanny has total say on all player moves) have a reasonably good batting average in terms of player moves. They seem to be better at finding "hidden value" guys than evaluating marquee talent - with the exception of Bailey, perhaps Wilson and maybe Walker, there's really no top 3-4 players at their position on this team. Contrast that to even teams like Baltimore, and it's clear that Shanahan is a much better X's and O's guy than GM.

I'll just throw out a couple of other notable misses no one else mentioned:

- targeting Lionel Dalton in FA instead of Willie Roaf (who really wanted to be here)
- Taking Ashley Lelie instead of Ed Reed

[GonzoLays]

Someone asked about the draft philosophy and here is the answer I think. They have targeted players in the draft the last two years who have the ability to make the team right now. Less "potential picks", besides Clarett, and more guys who fit the way they play.



Don't you always draft guys that fit the way you play? If you are playing a 3-4 defense, you wouldn't draft a guy like Ernie Sims or sign Ian Gold to free agent contract because they are too small play LB in that defense. I believe every team does that. I don't think we have changed our philosophy all of a sudden and said, "Hey lets draft players that fit our system instead of the ones that don't. And also, lets stop taking projects and start selecting 5th year seniors who can come in and play right now."

For example, we don't draft or sign short WR's because they can't block (supposedly). Outside of Travis Mcgriff, we have drafted nothing but tall receivers and every single one of them has been a bust to a certain degree. That's freaking amazing.

Ashley Lelie -- Maybe worth a 1st, not a complete bust
Darius Watts -- Did Shanahan even know about the nerve damage in his hand when he stretched to select this guy in the 2nd round?
Triandos Luke -- Where did this flavor of the day go?
Adrian Madise -- Wasn't he the WR with the RB's ability to cut?
Herb Haygood -- Wasn't he the answer to our return problems?
Kevin Kasper -- The friendly white ghost was known more for shaving his whole body instead of catching the football.
Chris Cole -- The fastest player in the draft. And also the worst.
Muneer Monroe -- Couldn't catch a cold.
Leroy Fields - Who?
Travis Mcgriff-- Wasn't he drafted as a favor to an old Florida coaching buddy?
Chad Plummer -- He is fixing toilets and unclogging drains in the Denver area.
Patrick Jeffers -- Here is a guy who made it -- for the Cowboys and Panthers.
Marcus Nash -- Don't even get me started.

Talk about futility. And you could do the exact same thing for the QBs we have drafted, the Defensive Lineman we have drafted and Defensive Backs we have drafted. Terrible!

They only people we can draft is LB's, OL, and RB's. That's it. You know why? Because nobody else in the league is looking for midget OL other than us. That is why we always find "steals" like Eslinger at the end of the draft because over half the teams in the league can't use him. They render this players as too small so we get the pick of the litter. Drafting RB's? Man, if you are a running back and know how to make one cut and run straight ahead, you can get 1,000 yards in our system. Period. I could select the next running back for this team and he could be the next Olandis Gary or Rueben Droughns. What about our success at LB? That is the HARDEST position in the draft to select a bust. LB's are always productive to some level, especially those selected in the first two rounds. Tackle numbers always look sexy. How many perennial pro bowlers have we selected? Al Wilson. The rest, just solid.

We are one of the WORST drafting teams in the league. Let us not fool ourselves here. I bet you Mike doesn't even scout the draft, he just picks up a the annual Sporting News draft guide and reads it from cover to back unearthing "hidden" talents.

[NorthPABroncFan]

They only people we can draft is LB's, OL, and RB's. That's it. You know why? Because nobody else in the league is looking for midget OL other than us. That is why we always find "steals" like Eslinger at the end of the draft because over half the teams in the league can't use him. They render this players as too small so we get the pick of the litter. Drafting RB's? Man, if you are a running back and know how to make one cut and run straight ahead, you can get 1,000 yards in our system. Period. I could select the next running back for this team and he could be the next Olandis Gary or Rueben Droughns. What about our success at LB? That is the HARDEST position in the draft to select a bust. LB's are always productive to some level, especially those selected in the first two rounds. Tackle numbers always look sexy. How many perennial pro bowlers have we selected? Al Wilson. The rest, just solid.

We are one of the WORST drafting teams in the league. Let us not fool ourselves here. I bet you Mike doesn't even scout the draft, he just picks up a the annual Sporting News draft guide and reads it from cover to back unearthing "hidden" talents.I think that's going a little too far... I'd throw out names like Trevor Pryce, Reggie Hayward, Darrent Williams and Dom Foxworth as proof that the Broncos do have some success drafting other positions... on D at least.

I do think that Shanahan has fallen prey to thinking he can outwit other teams on offense without having to have better talent -- and then "panic'ing" on WR choices when the cupboard was dangerously thin. One thing that seems to be happening over the past 2-3 years is that the Broncos are drafting somewhat against their normal "trends", taking chances on talent (DJ Williams, Jay Cutler) instead of position need picks.

Looking at the rest of the AFC West, it's pretty clear the Broncos have done a lot better job in the draft than either Oakland or KC. And given that San Diego has usually been drafting a lot higher than Denver, I'd argue that the brain trust in Dove Valley *over the past three years* has been doing great. Prior to that, I'd grade them about a "C" - middle of the NFL pack at best.

[NorthPABroncFan]

They only people we can draft is LB's, OL, and RB's. That's it. You know why? Because nobody else in the league is looking for midget OL other than us. That is why we always find "steals" like Eslinger at the end of the draft because over half the teams in the league can't use him. They render this players as too small so we get the pick of the litter. Drafting RB's? Man, if you are a running back and know how to make one cut and run straight ahead, you can get 1,000 yards in our system. Period. I could select the next running back for this team and he could be the next Olandis Gary or Rueben Droughns. What about our success at LB? That is the HARDEST position in the draft to select a bust. LB's are always productive to some level, especially those selected in the first two rounds. Tackle numbers always look sexy. How many perennial pro bowlers have we selected? Al Wilson. The rest, just solid.

We are one of the WORST drafting teams in the league. Let us not fool ourselves here. I bet you Mike doesn't even scout the draft, he just picks up a the annual Sporting News draft guide and reads it from cover to back unearthing "hidden" talents.I think that's going a little too far... I'd throw out names like Trevor Pryce, Reggie Hayward, Darrent Williams and Dom Foxworth as proof that the Broncos do have some success drafting other positions... on D at least.

I do think that Shanahan has fallen prey to thinking he can outwit other teams on offense without having to have better talent -- and then "panic'ing" on WR choices when the cupboard was dangerously thin. One thing that seems to be happening over the past 2-3 years is that the Broncos are drafting somewhat against their normal "trends", taking chances on talent (DJ Williams, Jay Cutler) instead of position need picks.

Looking at the rest of the AFC West, it's pretty clear the Broncos have done a lot better job in the draft than either Oakland or KC. And given that San Diego has usually been drafting a lot higher than Denver, I'd argue that the brain trust in Dove Valley *over the past three years* has been doing great. Prior to that, I'd grade them about a "C" - middle of the NFL pack at best. That's still better than "one of the WORST". My $0.02

[Pendejo]

I notice that the draft picks are conspiciuously absent, especially since Shanny's drafting from the 3rd round on has been particularly atrocious for the past 5-6 years. That's a pretty big part of being GM. We went over this multiple times before the draft. Shanny's rep as a great drafter is from his hit rate in the 1st (fantastic, especially for how low they draft) and his RB hits.

He's pulled 3 starters from the 3rd round and later since 2001 (Heyward, Putzier, and Hamilton), and 2 of those guys are gone.

Right. My point in the other thread is that he's drafted quantity over quality in certain aspects (DE), and when he finally hit on one Heyward...he let's him walk. We all know it looks like he hit the jackpot last year with CB's, and this year's draft looks good as well.

On the free agency front I keep seeing people say things like he's only made a few mistakes, or he's had more successes than gaffes. I saw someone say that Kavika Pittman was a stop gap...but didn't mention that Pittman got Sharpe's money. Carter, and Gardner both had huge question marks about their character, and both of those moves set the franchise back. In my opinion it's not the amount of errors that the Rat has made...it's the severity.

There's no denying that he's a hall of fame caliber coach, but to say that as a personnel man he hasn't made some colossal blunders is silly.

That being said...I'm glad the Rat is on our side.

[GonzoLays]

I think that's going a little too far... I'd throw out names like Trevor Pryce, Reggie Hayward, Darrent Williams and Dom Foxworth as proof that the Broncos do have some success drafting other positions... on D at least.



Let's be frank here, if you throw enough **** against the wall, somethings got to stick. Trevor Pryce was superb DL pick by Shanahan -- 10 years ago. After that, it is a bunch of mind-numbing, head scratching, nobody has ever heard of selections like Paul Tovessi, Dorsett Davis, Nick Eason, Bryant McNeal, Jerry Johnson, and Montae Raegor. Terrible.

Same with our defensive backs. The year before Williams and Fox, we drafted LeSuer in the third, Shoate in the 5th. Then before that we had the infamous back to back CB drafts in which we selected Deltha O'neal and Willie Middlebrooks in the first round! What!

The only reason we win consistently is because we have the best head coach in the UNIVERSE! Mike Shanahan can make any team a competitive. If I had to select between Bilichek and Shanahan, I would take Shanahan. He is that good. He always beats Bilichek head to head, and the one year we did lose to him, we had Danny Kannel at QB, Jason Elam hurt his leg so we played without a kicker in the second half, and we still lost at the last second to the eventual world champions because of Deltha's fourth quarter incompetence.

[BroncoBuff]

I agree in all but one regard. Something happened in the past two drafts that is different. Denver sucked at drafting until last year.

The change in the past two years is not just random chance. There is clearly a different logic to drafting than there was before. I welcome it because combined with Shanahan's other enormous talents, Denver with a consistently good draft is going to shake up the league.

Shanahan is building a juggernaut. I see it coming.
I agree 110% ... things really have been very different the last two years. There's some guy on staff now (name?) who has recently taken over the draft evaluations .... the name slips my mind, but he had some history of some kind with Mike somewhere. Name anybody?

You're right, though ... as I think I've shown here, Shanny has been excellent with FA's ... and if the last 2 drafts mean 'past is prelude,' and we are now top-tier draft evaluators ... then we're in for one whale of a ride! Only the cap will stop us.


I notice that the draft picks are conspiciuously absent, especially since Shanny's drafting from the 3rd round on has been particularly atrocious for the past 5-6 years. That's a pretty big part of being GM.
True ... I was just concentrating on free agents and trying to point out that the vast majority fo teams in today's NFL are composed of FAs ... his drafting has been average at best, until the last two years (above).

[BroncoBuff]

Very good post but you missed a couple things.

Anderson, Pryce and Putz were not lost due to free agency. They were cut while under contract.
Yeah, you're right.

But I included them on the FA's Lost list because they weren't cut for their play, but because of $$ or because Shanny had FREE AGENTS in mind. (PLus, all three were immediately signed elsewhere.)

After all, I'm evaluating Shanny's free agency and rebuilding skills in this post. His choosing FAs Kenard Lang over Pryce, and re-signing Courtney Brown and Ron Dayne over Pryce and MA is exactly the kinds of choices that have enabled Shanny to REBUILD that broken-down 1999 6-10 team (that lost FOUR HALL-of-FAMERS on offense - Elway Zimmerman, Sharpe to season-ending-injury then Ravens FA, and Terrell Davis to season and career-ending injury) ... into the 2006 home-field AFC Championship team (with three playoff appearances along the way!)

COMPARE SHANAHAN'S rebuilding to how the other "TEAMS of the 90s" have rebuilt:

GREEN BAY PACKERS - suck
SAN FRANCISCO - Really suck
DALLAS COWBOYS - mostly suck, one playoff appearanceAnd like I said, the earliest "TEAMS of the 00s" have fallen hard too:

ST LOUIS RAMS - suck
BALTIMORE RAVENS - suck
OAKLAND RAIDER - redefining the term "suck"
TAMPA BAY - sucked for two years, but now showing signs of lifeWhen you look at how far these 7 teams fell from their thrones, and compare the six years we've had since 1999, THEN YOU SEE the point of my thread. We've rebuilt back to basically the top now ... but had 4 playoff appearances in the 7 years we've been rebuilding since B2B ....

ALL HAIL MIKE SHANAHAN!

[azbroncfan]

Right. My point in the other thread is that he's drafted quantity over quality in certain aspects (DE), and when he finally hit on one Heyward...he let's him walk. We all know it looks like he hit the jackpot last year with CB's, and this year's draft looks good as well.

On the free agency front I keep seeing people say things like he's only made a few mistakes, or he's had more successes than gaffes. I saw someone say that Kavika Pittman was a stop gap...but didn't mention that Pittman got Sharpe's money. Carter, and Gardner both had huge question marks about their character, and both of those moves set the franchise back. In my opinion it's not the amount of errors that the Rat has made...it's the severity.

There's no denying that he's a hall of fame caliber coach, but to say that as a personnel man he hasn't made some colossal blunders is silly.

That being said...I'm glad the Rat is on our side.

Thats the sign of a sucessful person. You can't be afraid to make mistakes and you have to be willing to take risks. You will win some and lose some.

[Atlas]

Let's be frank here, if you throw enough **** against the wall, somethings got to stick. Trevor Pryce was superb DL pick by Shanahan -- 10 years ago. After that, it is a bunch of mind-numbing, head scratching, nobody has ever heard of selections like Paul Tovessi, Dorsett Davis, Nick Eason, Bryant McNeal, Jerry Johnson, and Montae Raegor. Terrible.
.


Just because a player doesn't work out doesn't mean he was a bad draft pick. Reagor has been a starter in Indi since he left Denver and has played very well. Deltha Oneil has been to 2 probowls since he left Denver. They didn't work out in Denver but they weren't bad draft picks.

Shanny has really hit on some drafts.
Dan Neil
Cooper Carlisle
Gerorge Foster
Al Wilson
Trevor Pryce
Ian Gold
Sam Brandon
Tom Nalen
Terrell Davis
Mike Anderson
Clinton Portis
DJ Wiliams
Darrent Williams
Dominique Foxworth
Tatum Bell
Ben Hamilton

Everyone conmcentrates on the draft picks that failed. Well, look at any team's drafts the last 10 years and see if they have had as a many impact players as the Broncos have drafted. Look at the Chefs, Faiders and Chargers drafts!!! And they have had better draft spots than Denver, and yet Denver has drafted so much better.

People here on the Mane think it's easy to draft good players. It's not, look at the other teams drafts and compare. Denver since '95 is definatley a top 10 team in drafting.

[milehimike]

A++ to you on your thread, good research, and good observation. You got my vote!!!!!!! Go coach, Go BRONCOS

[BroncoBuff]

A++ to you on your thread, good research, and good observations. You got my vote!
Thank you very much, gnu guy ... welcome.

And Atlas is right ... I'm not sure Shanny has been a "Top 10" drafter with Denver, but it's always easier to point to bad picks than good ones. Besides, if he sucked half as bad as many claim, we'd be going 5-11 and 6-10 every year.