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mhgaffney
07-29-2006, 09:13 PM
Rashid Khalidi is a Palestinian-American and is one of the top Arab scholars in the US, indeed, the world. He was formerly at the U of Chicago, and now is at Columbia U.

The following will give you an Arab perspective on the war. Forget about what you saw on FOX, CNN, NBC etc. This first appeared in the Nation. MHG

Anger In the Arab World
by Rashid I. Khalidi

In what passes for analysis of the war involving Israel, Lebanon and Palestine in US and Israeli government circles, in the well-oiled PR machine that shills for them, and in much of the US media, we are told about a struggle against terrorism by a state under siege. The basic argument is that Israel is "responding to terrorist violence," and that the only real question is, How soon will Israeli force, backed by American determination, prevail? But this scenario has little to do with reality in the Middle East.

There will be no "destruction" of Hezbollah, and no "uprooting" of its infrastructure or that of Hamas, whatever the results of Israel's siege of Gaza and its merciless attacks against Lebanon. The rhetoric about "terrorism" has mesmerized those who parrot it, blinding them to the fact that Hezbollah and Hamas are deeply rooted popular movements that have developed as a response to occupation--of the West Bank and Gaza for nearly forty years, and of southern Lebanon from 1978 to 2000. Whatever one might say about the two movements' callousness in targeting civilians (a subject on which Israel's defenders are hardly in a position to preach), both have won impressive victories in elections and have provided social services and protection to their people.

The Lebanese government will not do Israel's bidding in south Lebanon. The deep divisions in Lebanon over Hezbollah's military presence before Israel's blitz began are rapidly disappearing. Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, Lebanese Speaker Nabih Berri, Saad Hariri (son of assassinated Prime Minister Rafik Hariri), Gen. Michel Aoun, President Émile Lahoud and other major leaders of the country of all sects and all political persuasions and Lebanese public opinion have been horrified at Israel's ravaging of their country's infrastructure and its defenseless civilian population, yet again. Few indeed will be the Lebanese voices to support the Israeli-US position as this savaging of Lebanon goes on--and just because it is largely absent from US television does not mean that it is invisible to the rest of the world.

Iran and Syria, Hezbollah's principal allies, will not come out of this conflict weaker, even if it develops into a regional war involving either. The United States has been threatening both for several years, since 9/11 released the cowboy in George W. Bush. Their positions have been strengthened by the bulldozer-like obtuseness of US policy on Hamas and Hezbollah, never more so than since Israel fell into Hezbollah's trap and overreacted to the capture of two of its soldiers and the wounding of several of its civilians in mid-July. A war with either of these countries, or a serious effort to overthrow either of their unsavory regimes, will in the end weaken either Israel or the United States or both, should they escalate this dangerous international crisis.

The pro-American Arab regimes that initially foolishly aligned themselves with the United States and Israel over the Lebanese crisis have shown their regret by backpedaling as fast as they can. Public opinion in their countries is massively against their position (Al Jazeera's viewership is way up; that of the Saudi-run Al Arabiya is way down) and is making itself felt. Fortunately for the Bush Administration and Israel, none of these countries have a functioning democracy. The net result of this crisis, however it comes out, will be a further weakening of these regimes. They may temporarily increase their dependence on the United States. But they are weaker than they were before this crisis began, and their oppositions, whether in Cairo, Amman or Riyadh, are stronger.

Israel's regional power decreases when it escalates the use of force against Palestinians and Lebanese. This has been the case for the last couple of decades--the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, the first intifada of 1987-90 and Hezbollah's defeat of Israel in south Lebanon in the years leading up to 2000 are all examples--and it will happen again. The United States has discovered the same thing (at least the majority of the population in the reality-based community, not in the never-never land of the crazies who run our Middle East policy), as the use of massive force in Iraq has produced a similarly massive weakening of the US position throughout the Middle East. The United States has experienced a decline in its power and influence in the region unparalleled in the post-World War II era.

Much depends on whether an Israeli, American or Israeli-American war with Syria and, much more serious, Iran can be avoided. If escalation of what is already a major war in Gaza and Lebanon can be prevented, the conflict's regional effects will be mitigated. Much depends on how fast European public opinion, turning rapidly, expresses its revulsion at what is happening in Lebanon. Tales of the massive destruction and civilian casualties are being carried home by tens of thousands of French, British, Italian and German evacuees, many of them dual nationals, appearing on French and British TV talking about the atrocities they have seen. Much also depends on how adventurous Iran and Syria choose to be, how much punishment Hezbollah can take and still keep fighting, and how wise the Palestinians are in dealing with their difficult internal situation. And much depends on how far the man in the White House will go with his instincts. If he reins in his darker impulses and those of the Israeli general staff, which is running the show on that end of the alliance, the current slide into the abyss can yet be halted. If not, the Middle East and the United States are headed for catastrophe.

Rashid Khalidi, Edward Said Professor of Arab Studies at Columbia, is author of the forthcoming "The Iron Cage: The Story of the Palestinian Struggle for Statehood."

© 2006 The Nation

NOLA Bronco
07-29-2006, 09:27 PM
Why is it that everyone who is pro-Israel is assumed to have developed their opinion from TV or the media? Many of us who believe in Israels right to exist and defend itself came to this conclusion without watching CNN.

Hezbollah and Hamas may have developed as a response, but in name only. The Anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel, and Anti-Zionist beliefs have been around far longer than any of us. You can not back down, surrender, or negotiate with groups who would deny your right to exist.

This all sucks for nations like Lebanon who get caught in the middle.

Spider
07-29-2006, 09:55 PM
Why is it that everyone who is pro-Israel is assumed to have developed their opinion from TV or the media? Many of us who believe in Israels right to exist and defend itself came to this conclusion without watching CNN.

Hezbollah and Hamas may have developed as a response, but in name only. The Anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel, and Anti-Zionist beliefs have been around far longer than any of us. You can not back down, surrender, or negotiate with groups who would deny your right to exist.

This all sucks for nations like Lebanon who get caught in the middle.
Israel has a right to defend herself , i know the Jews are not innocent , but the arabs keep poking the big dog on the block with a stick , I have no sympathy for either side , both are guilty .....The Arabs are getting what they want , the Jews are getting what they want , let them kick the sht out of each other untill nothing is left ......

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
07-30-2006, 04:37 AM
Many of us who believe in Israels right to exist and defend itself came to this conclusion without watching CNN.

Corporate media like CNN, Faux, and MSRNC are responsible for peddling the reductionist spin that this conflict is a simple matter of Israel "defending itself," when, in fact, what Israel is presently doing in Lebanon goes WAY beyond mere self-defense.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
07-30-2006, 04:39 AM
Israel has a right to defend herself , i know the Jews are not innocent , but the arabs keep poking the big dog on the block with a stick , I have no sympathy for either side , both are guilty .....The Arabs are getting what they want , the Jews are getting what they want , let them kick the sht out of each other untill nothing is left ......

The Israelis and the Lebanese people are the losers.

BushCo, Saudi Arabia, and Iran are the winners.

NOLA Bronco
07-30-2006, 07:11 AM
Corporate media like CNN, Faux, and MSRNC are responsible for peddling the reductionist spin that this conflict is a simple matter of Israel "defending itself," when, in fact, what Israel is presently doing in Lebanon goes WAY beyond mere self-defense.

Lets put it this way, my opinion does not come from watching these outlets. I usuallly stay away from these stations after their terrible coverage of the Hurricane and aftermath last year. For kicks and giggles though, I did flip through CNN a few days ago, and the coverage seemed pretty balanced. It had a couple fluff pieces on Israeli children, along with interviews with some Lebanese about how they fled their homes. If anything, the coverage showed how the suffering in Lebanon is reaching large proportions. No one declared Hezbollah to be a great organization, but the news folks didn't shy away from discussing the destruction inflicted by the Israelis.

It sucks that Lebanon is being caught in the middle. There are many, many innocent people caught in the middle. But if you allow terrorists to operate within your country and turn a blind eye to their hatred, **** will happen.

SteveTensi13
07-30-2006, 08:35 AM
Kill'em all, let God sort 'em out!! Death to Islam!!

Spider
07-30-2006, 08:40 AM
Kill'em all, let God sort 'em out!! Death to Islam!!
death to them all including Israel .........

RMT
07-30-2006, 08:50 AM
Israel has a right to defend herself , i know the Jews are not innocent , but the arabs keep poking the big dog on the block with a stick , I have no sympathy for either side , both are guilty .....The Arabs are getting what they want , the Jews are getting what they want , let them kick the sht out of each other untill nothing is left ......

Great post, Spider; I concur - rep!

Meck77
07-30-2006, 08:54 AM
Kill'em all, let God sort 'em out!! Death to Islam!!

I see Steve has gotten a little more radical in the last few days along with probably 98 Million Muslims. :thumbs: Makes for a good combination. So I guess full on racism is allowed in the war forum now?:thumbsdow

Neg rep.....

Spider
07-30-2006, 09:07 AM
Great post, Spider; I concur - rep!
It is just so frustrating Bro , we have done everything , to keep peace , to no avail , Jews get mad that Ahab the Arab did this or that , the Arab is pissed cause Goldstien the Jews did this or that , so right away they set out to kill each other , then along comes the U.S. and tries to work out a peace deal ......Screw em this time , let both sides blast each other to hell , the survivors, will then look and say , there has to be a better way to work things out ......

Spider
07-30-2006, 09:08 AM
I see Steve has gotten a little more radical in the last few days along with probably 98 Million Muslims. :thumbs: Makes for a good combination. So I guess full on racism is allowed in the war forum now?:thumbsdow

Neg rep.....
Steve tensi13 isnt a Racist , just an Idiot , he doesnt understand what he says , he just repeats what he hears that sounds cool

mhgaffney
07-30-2006, 12:26 PM
It is just so frustrating Bro , we have done everything , to keep peace , to no avail , Jews get mad that Ahab the Arab did this or that , the Arab is pissed cause Goldstien the Jews did this or that , so right away they set out to kill each other , then along comes the U.S. and tries to work out a peace deal ......Screw em this time , let both sides blast each other to hell , the survivors, will then look and say , there has to be a better way to work things out ......

We have done everything to keep peace?????

You mean like how we used our Securiity Council veto dozens of times to block the UN from settling the conflict? Americans are correct to lament the UN's impotence here -- but like Spider they fail to see the reason. It's the US who has blocked a peace settlement for at least 30+ years.

This is the case even though we are on record supporting UN SC resolutions 242 and 338 that call for Israel to withdraw from lands siezed in the 1967 war, i.e. the West Bank. This would be the price of peace with the Arab world, as the Saudi peace initiative in 2002 made clear. The Saudis offered Israel not only recognition but full normalized relations, full trade, economic ties, cultural exchanges, in short, an end to the conflict.

Israeli PM Ariel Sharon never even responded to the offer. He ignored it and continued with his policy of no negotiations. This is the unilateral policy that led to the present war in Lebanon and Gaza. When you ignore peace offers from the other side you shouldn't be surprised when the result is violence.

These are the facts -- but no one here cares about facts. Every US president since Carter has looked the other way.

BTW, this de facto US policy of backing Israel's miltary occpation of the West Bank also happens to be illegal -- a violation of the US Constitution. According to the Constitution when the US Senate ratifies an international treaty that treaty becomes the law of the land. Long ago the US Senate ratified the UN charter -- when we created the UN after WW II. This means that UN Security Council resolutions are binding as US law.

Of course none of this matters in the crazy realm of US politics, where no one knows or cares.

This is why Khalidi states that the US/Israel are headed for a catastrophe in the Mideast -- one that will make Iraq look like a warm up. I sadly concur with his assessment. MHG

NOLA Bronco
07-30-2006, 12:44 PM
This is the case even though we are on record supporting UN SC resolutions 242 and 338 that call for Israel to withdraw from lands siezed in the 1967 war, i.e. the West Bank. This would be the price of peace with the Arab world, as the Saudi peace initiative in 2002 made clear. The Saudis offered Israel not only recognition but full normalized relations, full trade, economic ties, cultural exchanges, in short, an end to the conflict.

BS. West Bank or no West Bank, there will always be militants who want to end Israel and kill Jews. As long as the Arab world continues to do nothing about the existance of these groups, Israel is right to keep their guard up and not trust anyone but themselves.

Why do you think, even now, the Saudis are hesitant to stop teaching in their schools that Jews and Christians are infidels? They do not not represent peace, they represent a way that will make Israel weaker and eventually die.

errand
07-30-2006, 12:53 PM
It sucks that Lebanon is being caught in the middle. There are many, many innocent people caught in the middle. But if you allow terrorists to operate within your country and turn a blind eye to their hatred, **** will happen.

Exactly.

If my kids were terrorizing the neighborhood and I did nothing about it, then I shouldn't have the nerve to look shocked when the neighbors begin to take matters into their own hands.

If Lebanon wants the israeli's to leave, then they need to step up and remove those starting all this crap. Quite frankly I think it's not that they're unable...I think they're unwilling to do so.

SteveTensi13
07-30-2006, 01:11 PM
death to them all including Israel .........

Anti-semite!!

SteveTensi13
07-30-2006, 01:16 PM
UN Security Council resolutions are binding as US law.
MHG

So, you're telling me that if the UN Security Counsil passes a resolution banning private ownership of firearms we in America have no choice but to obey our UN masters? When that happens I will personally bomb the UN offices!!

Spider
07-30-2006, 02:14 PM
Anti-semite!!
I see , so I should just believe everything Israel does is good and everyone else is bad ...... News flash for you Mr Fife . it takes 2 to tangle

Spider
07-30-2006, 02:16 PM
We have done everything to keep peace?????

You mean like how we used our Securiity Council veto dozens of times to block the UN from settling the conflict? Americans are correct to lament the UN's impotence here -- but like Spider they fail to see the reason. It's the US who has blocked a peace settlement for at least 30+ years.

This is the case even though we are on record supporting UN SC resolutions 242 and 338 that call for Israel to withdraw from lands siezed in the 1967 war, i.e. the West Bank. This would be the price of peace with the Arab world, as the Saudi peace initiative in 2002 made clear. The Saudis offered Israel not only recognition but full normalized relations, full trade, economic ties, cultural exchanges, in short, an end to the conflict.

Israeli PM Ariel Sharon never even responded to the offer. He ignored it and continued with his policy of no negotiations. This is the unilateral policy that led to the present war in Lebanon and Gaza. When you ignore peace offers from the other side you shouldn't be surprised when the result is violence.

These are the facts -- but no one here cares about facts. Every US president since Carter has looked the other way.

BTW, this de facto US policy of backing Israel's miltary occpation of the West Bank also happens to be illegal -- a violation of the US Constitution. According to the Constitution when the US Senate ratifies an international treaty that treaty becomes the law of the land. Long ago the US Senate ratified the UN charter -- when we created the UN after WW II. This means that UN Security Council resolutions are binding as US law.

Of course none of this matters in the crazy realm of US politics, where no one knows or cares.

This is why Khalidi states that the US/Israel are headed for a catastrophe in the Mideast -- one that will make Iraq look like a warm up. I sadly concur with his assessment. MHG

why shouldnt we look the other way ? seriously , if these ássholes cant live together without killing each other , why should we babysit these bastards ?
I wish they would just have an all out war and be done with it .......

mhgaffney
07-30-2006, 03:18 PM
BS. West Bank or no West Bank, there will always be militants who want to end Israel and kill Jews. As long as the Arab world continues to do nothing about the existance of these groups, Israel is right to keep their guard up and not trust anyone but themselves.

Why do you think, even now, the Saudis are hesitant to stop teaching in their schools that Jews and Christians are infidels? They do not not represent peace, they represent a way that will make Israel weaker and eventually die.


BS? NOLA is in denial -- like so many. Go look at the site.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

The Saudi peace offer happened. If you don't want to believe it that's your problem.

Obviously NOLA never cracked a book or did any research into the situation. All he knows is what he saw or read in the US press. Which is totally slanted. There is no analysis. Israel and the US are always presented in the best possible light. We are the saviors, the peacemakers the guardians of liberty. If this is true then why do polls show that 70% or more of the world believe that we and our Israeli allies are today the most dangerous threat to peace.

Of course it's possible that the 2002 Saudi peace offer was not serious. But we will never know since the US and Israel ignored iit. If you don't respond to a peace offer you can't know if the other side is serious. In that case you deserve the consequences.

NOLA Bronco
07-30-2006, 04:58 PM
BS? NOLA is in denial -- like so many. Go look at the site.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

The Saudi peace offer happened. If you don't want to believe it that's your problem.

Obviously NOLA never cracked a book or did any research into the situation. All he knows is what he saw or read in the US press. Which is totally slanted. There is no analysis. Israel and the US are always presented in the best possible light. We are the saviors, the peacemakers the guardians of liberty. If this is true then why do polls show that 70% or more of the world believe that we and our Israeli allies are today the most dangerous threat to peace.

Of course it's possible that the 2002 Saudi peace offer was not serious. But we will never know since the US and Israel ignored iit. If you don't respond to a peace offer you can't know if the other side is serious. In that case you deserve the consequences.


Ugh. I have already said that I dont use the US media to form my opinion. I have no doubt that the Saudi plan "offered" peace. But its foolish to think that everything would have been fine in the region if Israel relinquished power of the West Bank. If your enemy who wants to kill you lives next door, why would you foolishly let them have more room to operate and control the boundary?

The price of peace was not the West Bank. Once in control, you think it would have ended there? Don't be so naive.

SactownOrangeSunday
07-30-2006, 05:59 PM
Corporate media like CNN, Faux, and MSRNC are responsible for peddling the reductionist spin that this conflict is a simple matter of Israel "defending itself," when, in fact, what Israel is presently doing in Lebanon goes WAY beyond mere self-defense.

I totally agree. This is a war of aggression on Israel's part. The Jewish have an unbelievable strong lobby in the United States that every single Republican and Democrat have listened to and that really impacts our relations in the region. Also its like there is some sort of residual guilt on our part for not stopping the atrocities of WWII sooner or something. Hezbollah and the Arabs are to blame for the entire situation just as much as Israel, but damn its time to take off the Israel blinders in this country and start criticizing them just as we do the Arabs.

Spider
07-30-2006, 08:31 PM
I saw on TV @ the Hospitial ( had to take my 11 year old in , heat stroke ) that Israel realy lowered the boom in Lebanon , even pissed off Bush ...... I didnt get all the details , but man everyone from the pope on down to Bush is irked ........

Spider
07-30-2006, 08:35 PM
Even the Jews know they went to far ................ http://www.cnn.com/
So Stevetensi13 , this kinda makes you look real stupid right about now ........

Spider
07-30-2006, 08:38 PM
but this is part of the problem , the enemy is hiding near civilians , Israel does have to strike back .... But they should use caution when striking back .......
If Hezbollah was as bad áss as they thought , they would seperate the people they fight for from them selfs , draw a line in the sand make a stand ......

SteveTensi13
07-30-2006, 09:49 PM
Rashid Khalidi is a Palestinian-American and is one of the top Arab scholars in the US, indeed, the world. He was formerly at the U of Chicago, and now is at Columbia U.


That alone discredits this person as an unbiased assesment. Kindda like asking a turkey his opinion of thanksgiving day!!

SteveTensi13
07-30-2006, 10:13 PM
I googled mhgaffney's name and all I found was this;

SteveTensi13
07-30-2006, 10:22 PM
This is too funny;

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
07-31-2006, 12:05 AM
I totally agree. This is a war of aggression on Israel's part. The Jewish have an unbelievable strong lobby in the United States that every single Republican and Democrat have listened to and that really impacts our relations in the region. Also its like there is some sort of residual guilt on our part for not stopping the atrocities of WWII sooner or something. Hezbollah and the Arabs are to blame for the entire situation just as much as Israel, but damn its time to take off the Israel blinders in this country and start criticizing them just as we do the Arabs.

Holy sheep shyte!

I agree with you 100%.

Mark your calendar. :D

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
07-31-2006, 12:08 AM
So I guess full on racism is allowed in the war forum now?:thumbsdow

Looks like errand finally found himself a soulmate.