Where Are The Christians? by Pat Buchanan

[Smiling Assassin27]

Where are the Christians?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: July 18, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern

When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force on Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.

First came capitulation on the Bush Doctrine, as Pyongyang and Tehran defied Bush's dictum: The world's worst regimes will not be allowed to acquire the world's worst weapons. Then came suspension of the democracy crusade as Islamic militants exploited free elections to advance to power and office in Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, Iraq and Iran.


Now, Israel's rampage against a defenseless Lebanon – smashing airport runways, fuel tanks, power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges, roads and the occasional refugee convoy – has exposed Bush's folly in subcontracting U.S. policy out to Tel Aviv, thus making Israel the custodian of our reputation and interests in the Middle East.

The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush's blessing, is smashing up has a pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his democracy crusade. Yet, asked in St. Petersburg if he would urge Israel to use restraint in its airstrikes, Bush sounded less like the leader of the Free World than some bellicose city councilman from Brooklyn Heights.

What Israel is up to was described by its army chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, when he threatened to "turn back the clock in Lebanon 20 years."

Olmert seized upon Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers to unleash the IDF in a pre-planned attack to make the Lebanese people suffer until the Lebanese government disarms Hezbollah, a task the Israeli army could not accomplish in 18 years of occupation.

Israel is doing the same to the Palestinians. To punish these people for the crime of electing Hamas, Olmert imposed an economic blockade of Gaza and the West Bank and withheld the $50 million in monthly tax and customs receipts due the Palestinians.

Then, Israel instructed the United States to terminate all aid to the Palestinian Authority, though Bush himself had called for the elections and for the participation of Hamas. Our Crawford cowboy meekly complied.

The predictable result: Fatah and Hamas fell to fratricidal fighting, and Hamas militants began launching Qassam rockets over the fence from Gaza into Israel. Hamas then tunneled into Israel, killed two soldiers, captured one, took him back into Gaza and demanded a prisoner exchange.

Israel's response was to abduct half of the Palestinian cabinet and parliament and blow up a $50 million U.S.-insured power plant. That cut off electricity for half a million Palestinians. Their food spoiled, their water could not be purified, and their families sweltered in the summer heat of the Gaza desert. One family of seven was wiped out on a beach by what the IDF assures us was an errant artillery shell.

Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy land from which attacks are mounted on her people.

But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.

But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to Lebanese Christians and Muslims?

When al-Qaida captured two U.S. soldiers and barbarically butchered them, the U.S. Army did not smash power plants across the Sunni Triangle. Why then is Bush not only silent but openly supportive when Israelis do this?

Democrats attack Bush for crimes of which he is not guilty, including Haditha and Abu Ghraib. Why are they, too, silent when Israel pursues a conscious policy of collective punishment of innocent peoples?

Britain's diplomatic goal in two world wars was to bring the naive cousins in, to "pull their chestnuts out of the fire." Israel and her paid and pro-bono agents here appear determined to expand the Iraq war into Syria and Iran, and have America fight and finish all of Israel's enemies.

That Tel Aviv is maneuvering us to fight its wars is understandable. That Americans are ignorant of, or complicit in this, is deplorable.

Already, Bush is ranting about Syria being behind the Hezbollah capture of the Israeli soldiers. But where is the proof?

Who is whispering in his ear? The same people who told him Iraq was maybe months away from an atom bomb, that an invasion would be a "cakewalk," that he would be Churchill, that U.S. troops would be greeted with candy and flowers, that democracy would break out across the region, that Palestinians and Israelis would then sit down and make peace?

How much must America pay for the education of this man?

[Rohirrim]

Who is whispering in his ear? The same people who told him Iraq was maybe months away from an atom bomb, that an invasion would be a "cakewalk," that he would be Churchill, that U.S. troops would be greeted with candy and flowers, that democracy would break out across the region, that Palestinians and Israelis would then sit down and make peace?

How much must America pay for the education of this man?

Well written. I swear, Buchanan's isolationism is looking better every day. We've been fighting Europe's battles for a hundred years. I guess now we should fight Israel's for another hundred?

[Mile High Shack]

Well written. I swear, Buchanan's isolationism is looking better every day. We've been fighting Europe's battles for a hundred years. I guess now we should fight Israel's for another hundred?

I agree it was well written

I agree with him on Iraq, it was a huge mistake, totally over estimated the will of the people to actually be free

I don't agree with isolationism though, it's impossible, but we need a better foreign policy than the "Bush doctrine" that is for sure

we tried isolationism in the 1800's and England attacked us anyway

we tried in the early 1900's, but we still had to help out in WWI

we tried before WWII, but Japan attacked us anyway

[Smiling Assassin27]

The problem is that our leaders aren't seeing the big picture. In not supporting a cease fire we're basically setting up 3 unstable nations to collapse. I'm quite sure that Muslim extremists will be more than happy to fill the vacuum that emerges. How that will help Israel is beyond me.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Pat's not entirely isolationist. That's a fallacy. But he looks at it from a different perspective--that spreading democracy and then whining about what the people elect leads to manipulation and conflict. He's right about that.
He also says that inerventionism is a road to what we've gotten--infestation of terror cells worldwide. There's a difference between being a peacemaker and a policeman.

[Rohirrim]

I don't agree with complete isolation, but the U.S. should be far less engaged on the ground worldwide than we currently are. The British are responsible for the Balfour declaration. But somehow the responsibility of fulfilling that doctrine passed to us. In 1948, the Brits just washed their hands of the whole mess, dropped it in the UN's lap and walked away - their normal pattern. Good for them. They're smart. Then, the UN completely failed to manage the whole thing. So it dropped into our laps? Not to mention, that when it has served Israel's interests, they are not adverse to attacking Americans (see the Lavon Affair).

The U.S. should not be totally isolated, but our vital national interests should be redefined as something separate from corporate interests. There should be no such thing as a foreign PAC buying influence in Washington. Our national policy should be to support and ally ourselves with those who are fighting for democracy, not shoving democracy down everybody's throats.

[W*GS]

What would be the downside of the US having a foreign policy like Switzerland's? Comments...

[Mile High Shack]

What would be the downside of the US having a foreign policy like Switzerland's? Comments...

as long as someone like Hitler doesn't come along and the greatest super power on the earth did nothing to stop him

I don't see a huge problem with it.

Problem is, even if we shrunk back and got out of the ME, Israel and Korea and other places where they hate us, that wouldn't stop the hate at all.

[alkemical]

What would be the downside of the US having a foreign policy like Switzerland's? Comments...


Well i guess a downside would be our biggest export would be a bikini team -

[Rohirrim]

Then there's the Harry Lime argument:
"In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed — they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

[Rascal]

To bad Pat would never win the republican vote.

Very good article.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Excellent article! :thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

To bad Pat would never win the republican vote.


If he ran as an independent against Hillary and whomever the Grandiose Oil Party chose as Dim Son's successor, then I might just vote for him.

Things are that bad.

[Spider]

isolationism isnt the answer , but niether is trading @ a deficit .........

[Rascal]

If he ran as an independent against Hillary and whomever the Grandiose Oil Party chose as Dim Son's successor, then I might just vote for him.

Things are that bad.

if he ran I'd probably vote for him.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Maybe a little geography lesson is in order here.

Israel is about 2 1/2 times the size of Rhode Island, a country that is 3-9 miles wide at its narrowest point and 60 miles at its widest point, about the same as Dallas-Fort Worth. Ponder that for a moment…Israel is the width of Dallas-Fort worth at its WIDEST point. Now picture trying to defend that non stop for 58 consecutive years.

Israel is outnumbered 60-1 in population by the 22 Arab countries that surround them, which include some of the most vicious and repressive regimes on earth. In land size they are surrounded on all sides by enemies sworn to destroy them that control 640 times the territory of Israel. Worldwide, Muslims outnumber Jews about 1000-1 and control hundreds of times Israel's wealth. Israel has survived 5 Middle East wars by being the toughest SOB's on the planet. They are that way because they don't have a choice...NONE. When most countries lose a war, they can look forward to having to accept some kind of distasteful terms of armistice. If Israel loses a war…ANY war…EVER…then short of some kind of intervention by the world community, which is probably unlikely...they get to look forward to the extermination of every man, woman and child in their nation…basically the next holocaust.

I'm a little tired of the constant portrayal of Israel as an evil expansionist regime bent on occupying Arab countries. The truth is exactly opposite of this for anyone with a whit of common sense. Israel controls less than 1/6 of 1% of all the land in the Middle East and 65% of the population lives within 9 miles of hostile borders where the threat of attack exists 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. I often drive 9 miles to the grocery store...that's how close they are to death at any moment. Maybe some of you who live in the safety and security of the most powerful nation on earth who have never been any closer than your living room big screen to an attack by terrorists bent on murdering your children should ponder on that for a while.

Does all this make everything they've done appropriate? No country in the world can claim that, including us. But I’m willing to cut Israel a little slack considering the odds they face and the fact that the world has proved for the last 2000 years they’d like nothing more than to see these people exterminated from the face of the earth. Maybe a couple of thousands years of state sponsored genocide and persecution where millions of Jews were gassed, electrocuted, crucified and burned alive tends to make these folks a bit less willing to view war like we do…just another economic venture. Or maybe it’s just made ‘em a bit pissed…ya think? Who can blame them? Only somebody with a short memory or one who doesn’t know history...

The world press has a history of siding against Israel pretty much ALL of the time with constant reports of Israeli alleged atrocities while the people deliberately targeting civilian populations with missiles and car bombs and admit they are doing so, basically get a free pass. Its an atrocity to blow up a bridge but not to machine gun children on school busses I guess. Gimme a break.

If you want to bag on the Israelis for how they're carrying out this campaign, fine...but Pat Buchanan might not be the best guy to be quoting. You might as well quote David Duke on civil rights, Bush on honesty or Clinton on keeping it in his pants. Buchanan's a Jew hater who says the holocaust was blown out of proportion. His bigoted comments on women, gays, blacks, basically anything related to multicultural and multiracial Americans are extremely well documented as well. Basically Pat Buchanan is a racist piece of crap hate-monger masquerading as a legitimate journalist and political voice. He’s nothing of the kind, and for Buchannan to call out Christians over Israel is ludicrous. Jesus was a Jew and Buchanan would have had nothing to do with him. Here's the real motivation behind his comments from a web site that reports equally on the dirt of political candidates on both sides of the aisle...this guy's an A-hole of the highest order and I wouldn’t trust ANYTHING he says. I can't believe he's being held up in here as a voice or reason...absolutely amazing. Don't settle for the lone quote I'm posting...if you want to know what he's really all about check out the whole site...or better yet a few of the 144,000 Google hits for "Pat Buchanan" AND "anti Semitism". This one alone should make you sick:

http://www.realchange.org/buchanan.htm

"Those of us in childhood during the war years were introduced to Hitler only as caricature. ... Though Hitler was indeed racist and anti-Semitic to the core, a man who without compunction could commit murder and genocide, he was also an individual of great courage, a soldier's soldier in the Great War, a political organizer of the first rank, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him." Pat Buchanan

So Hitler was a man of “great courage” huh? A "soldier's soldier"? Nice. Is this is the guy you people want to vote for? Try this one for more nauseating stuff:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2553

That’s truly frightening…

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlLA/original/pat%20buchanan.jpg

[Rohirrim]

And the Israelis taught the Palestinians how to be terrorists:

The King David Hotel bombing (July 22, 1946) was a bombing attack against the British government of Palestine by members of Irgun — a militant Zionist organization.

The Irgun, dressed as Arabs, exploded a bomb at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which had been the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police). 91 people were killed, most of them civilians: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 other. Around 45 people were injured.

The attack was initially ordered by Menachem Begin, the head of the Irgun, who would later become Israeli Prime Minister. The attack was commanded by Yosef Avni and Yisrael Levi.

The attack on the hotel was the deadliest attack against the British in the history of the Mandate. Some claim this act should be considered in light of the escalating violence in the region and the conflict between the three main forces in the region: British, Jewish and Arab. In particular, the attack was made in retaliation for the British mass arrests (Operation Agatha) of June 29 1946, when British troops raided the Jewish Agency and confiscated large quantities of documents, such as information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. A large number of seized documents were taken to the hotel. However, the bomb attack had already been planned.

[footstepsfrom#27]

And the Israelis taught the Palestinians how to be terrorists:

The King David Hotel bombing (July 22, 1946) was a bombing attack against the British government of Palestine by members of Irgun — a militant Zionist organization.
The Irgun, dressed as Arabs, exploded a bomb at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which had been the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police). 91 people were killed, most of them civilians: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 other. Around 45 people were injured.

The attack was initially ordered by Menachem Begin, the head of the Irgun, who would later become Israeli Prime Minister. The attack was commanded by Yosef Avni and Yisrael Levi.

The attack on the hotel was the deadliest attack against the British in the history of the Mandate. Some claim this act should be considered in light of the escalating violence in the region and the conflict between the three main forces in the region: British, Jewish and Arab. In particular, the attack was made in retaliation for the British mass arrests (Operation Agatha) of June 29 1946, when British troops raided the Jewish Agency and confiscated large quantities of documents, such as information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. A large number of seized documents were taken to the hotel. However, the bomb attack had already been planned.
So this incident 60 years ago is resonsible for the thousands of terrorists attacks against Israel? The tens of thousands worldwide by Muslim radicals?

Right. Your Pat Buchanan press kit just arrived in the mail I see.

What is a "militant zionist organization"? Is it different that just a "regular" zionist organization? Is it one that believes that the world's 13 million Jews ought to be able to hold onto a sliver of land that's their only place on earth where they have a government they know won't try to one day exterminate them? One that thinks Jews have the right to defend themselves against their enemies? Maybe it's one that has the gaul to think that being outnumbered 60-1 means they should be militarily strong? The Jews think they should have a right to live in a place where they began 4,000 years ago...while we think we're justified in keeping land we usurped a mere 400 years in the past.

If the US were in the same situation Israel is, we would be surrounded by enemies inhabiting a land area over 25 billion square kilometers, 168 times the total land surface of the earth...with a population 30 times all the people on earth...all bent on our complete destruction.

Failure to understand and accomodate this in the face of the current situation constitutes nothing less than either massive stupidity or rampant racism.

[El Minion]

So this incident 60 years ago is resonsible for the thousands of terrorists attacks against Israel? The tens of thousands worldwide by Muslim radicals?

Right. Your Pat Buchanan press kit just arrived in the mail I see.

What is a "militant zionist organization"? Is it different that just a "regular" zionist organization? Is it one that believes that the world's 13 million Jews ought to be able to hold onto a sliver of land that's their only place on earth where they have a government they know won't try to one day exterminate them? One that thinks Jews have the right to defend themselves against their enemies? Maybe it's one that has the gaul to think that being outnumbered 60-1 means they should be militarily strong? The Jews think they should have a right to live in a place where they began 4,000 years ago...while we think we're justified in keeping land we usurped a mere 400 years in the past.

If the US were in the same situation Israel is, we would be surrounded by enemies inhabiting a land area over 25 billion square kilometers, 168 times the total land surface of the earth...with a population 30 times all the people on earth...all bent on our complete destruction.

Failure to understand and accomodate this in the face of the current situation constitutes nothing less than either massive stupidity or rampant racism.

Can Israel do no wrong, do the odds justify the means?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Can Israel do no wrong, do the odds justify the means?
Well I don't know...if 60 armed men broke into your house tonight to rape your wife and murder your kids would you suggest that "restraint" is something you'd be thinking about practicing? Or would it be survival that's uppermost on your mind?

Are you over there on the ground watching it to know what's really going on? Or just listening to CNN reports? Israel was accused of deliberately targeting UN Peacekeepers by Kofi Annan. Does this seem logical to you? What does Israel gain by using expensive munitions to damage their credibility in the world court of public opinion? Or is it possible Hezbolah fighters are using the area where UN forces congregate to cause public relations problems for Israel, which is what we know that they do because we've seen it everywhere else in the Arab world...Iraq, Afghanistan, etc...? Think about it. The UN has never been friendly to Israel, so why swallow everything you here from over there.

On the other hand, we have a group of people in Lebanon that ADMIT they are DELIBERATELY trying to kill Israeli civilians. Where is your outcry over that? One report suggests something that makes no military or public relations sense, and is submitted by those with a long history of anti-Israeli bias, and yet it's believed. Another report that Hezbolah is deliberately trying to kill civilians is ignored.

Interesting...

[Hogan11]

Isreal has too much sway over our goverment and foreign policy. That's what I dislike about Isreal....I'm not comfortable with a foreign power having that much stroke in our affairs.

Pat Bucky is a total nutjob, but he had a sane moment with that article....I give credit where credit is due and that was a surprisingly good job from someone I'd never expect such things from.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So Hitler was a man of “great courage” huh? A "soldier's soldier"? Nice. Is this is the guy you people want to vote for?

Weird, isn't it?

Compared to the psychopaths running America right now, Buchanan seems like a rational guy.

Relativity - ain't it a b*tch? :D

[alkemical]

So this incident 60 years ago is resonsible for the thousands of terrorists attacks against Israel? The tens of thousands worldwide by Muslim radicals?

Right. Your Pat Buchanan press kit just arrived in the mail I see.

What is a "militant zionist organization"? Is it different that just a "regular" zionist organization? Is it one that believes that the world's 13 million Jews ought to be able to hold onto a sliver of land that's their only place on earth where they have a government they know won't try to one day exterminate them? One that thinks Jews have the right to defend themselves against their enemies? Maybe it's one that has the gaul to think that being outnumbered 60-1 means they should be militarily strong? The Jews think they should have a right to live in a place where they began 4,000 years ago...while we think we're justified in keeping land we usurped a mere 400 years in the past.

If the US were in the same situation Israel is, we would be surrounded by enemies inhabiting a land area over 25 billion square kilometers, 168 times the total land surface of the earth...with a population 30 times all the people on earth...all bent on our complete destruction.

Failure to understand and accomodate this in the face of the current situation constitutes nothing less than either massive stupidity or rampant racism.
.


So there are no such things as fundamentalist jews that wish to have the 'ends justify the means"?

[El Minion]

Well I don't know...if 60 armed men broke into your house tonight to rape your wife and murder your kids would you suggest that "restraint" is something you'd be thinking about practicing? Or would it be survival that's uppermost on your mind?

So everyone in Lebanon, including the children and the infirm, deserve what they get? Sounds straight out of the Daryl F. Gates school of "To Protect & To Serve."

Are you over there on the ground watching it to know what's really going on? Or just listening to CNN reports? Israel was accused of deliberately targeting UN Peacekeepers by Kofi Annan. Does this seem logical to you? What does Israel gain by using expensive munitions to damage their credibility in the world court of public opinion? Or is it possible Hezbolah fighters are using the area where UN forces congregate to cause public relations problems for Israel, which is what we know that they do because we've seen it everywhere else in the Arab world...Iraq, Afghanistan, etc...? Think about it. The UN has never been friendly to Israel, so why swallow everything you here from over there.

On the other hand, we have a group of people in Lebanon that ADMIT they are DELIBERATELY trying to kill Israeli civilians. Where is your outcry over that? One report suggests something that makes no military or public relations sense, and is submitted by those with a long history of anti-Israeli bias, and yet it's believed. Another report that Hezbolah is deliberately trying to kill civilians is ignored.

Interesting...

The two aren't equivalent, just because Hezbolah is guilty doesn't mean Israel is justified in its response. Again Israel isn't (can't, thanks to US) held accountable and given all the benefit of the doubt. From Israel's chief of staff "If the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years." Yes, that sounds like a responsible statement from the victims seeking justice on the guilty, let God sort them out.

BTW, since you agree with Israel's level of "defense" against the terrorists maybe we should put this guy (http://www.thekidfrombrooklyn.com/video_disp.asp?videoid=1301) in charge of ours.

[mhgaffney]

I concur with LA Bronco Fan.

What was that quote by the poet Ferlinghetti? "Nixon Nixon what kind of a Quaker are you Nixon?"

I would have to say -- a saint -- compared with the lunatics running our nation at present.

[gunns]

I concur with LA Bronco Fan.

What was that quote by the poet Ferlinghetti? "Nixon Nixon what kind of a Quaker are you Nixon?"

I would have to say -- a saint -- compared with the lunatics running our nation at present.

I lived through the Nixon years and naively thought I'd never see a worse abuse of power. I was terribly wrong.

And I agree with Hogan, Buchanon has sickened me in the past but that article is right on. I've always admired Israel for being such a small country that is able to defend themselves while in the midst of their enemies. But this has gone way past defending themselves, they are acting like the terrorists who think they are the only ones allowed to call the shots and live there.

[Meck77]

If he ran as an independent against Hillary and whomever the Grandiose Oil Party chose as Dim Son's successor, then I might just vote for him.

Things are that bad.

Wow.....The world just might be coming to an end.

[Spider]

Wow.....The world just might be coming to an end.
I concidered voting for Pat Myself ........ I didnt like Nafta I didnt want no part of it , but Ross Perot was screwy enough to be likable ;D

[Rohirrim]

So this incident 60 years ago is resonsible for the thousands of terrorists attacks against Israel? The tens of thousands worldwide by Muslim radicals?

Right. Your Pat Buchanan press kit just arrived in the mail I see.

What is a "militant zionist organization"? Is it different that just a "regular" zionist organization? Is it one that believes that the world's 13 million Jews ought to be able to hold onto a sliver of land that's their only place on earth where they have a government they know won't try to one day exterminate them? One that thinks Jews have the right to defend themselves against their enemies? Maybe it's one that has the gaul to think that being outnumbered 60-1 means they should be militarily strong? The Jews think they should have a right to live in a place where they began 4,000 years ago...while we think we're justified in keeping land we usurped a mere 400 years in the past.
If the US were in the same situation Israel is, we would be surrounded by enemies inhabiting a land area over 25 billion square kilometers, 168 times the total land surface of the earth...with a population 30 times all the people on earth...all bent on our complete destruction.

Failure to understand and accomodate this in the face of the current situation constitutes nothing less than either massive stupidity or rampant racism.

Cool the drama. My point was that Israel has too much influence on U.S. foreign policy, as does corporate America. As far as the Jewish "right" to Israel, that's a joke. If we are to believe the OT, Joshua led an army into Israel and for the next couple of hundred years, the Jews wiped out the Canaanites (every man, woman, child, AND livestock) and stole their land. That is the land they lay claim to. Why? Because they said that God gave that land to them. I find it weirdly, absurdly, hilarious that all this BS in the 21st century is going on because some people claim that 3500 years ago, God sliced out a little real estate specifically for them. I also think it's more likely that they got kicked out of Egypt because of their religious zealotry, spent 40 years living in the Sinai desert and finally said to themselves, "F this shiite. I'm sick of living in the stinking desert. Let's go kill those Canaanites and steal their land. First, we have to come up with a good reason for doing it that absolves us of all responsibility..." (think of Sam Kenison, more than Charlton Heston - "Hey, we can't live here! Nothin will grow! We gotta go where there's some food!)

But anyway, that's a fait accompli. They're there now, for good or evil. Another monumental British FU, like the parceling out of the ME (like Iraq) into states that have no connection to reality, that the world is now left to clean up. Most of the last hundred years of war have been the U.S. cleaning up after European imperialism. Believe it or not, there were thousands of Jews living in Palestine long before Ben Gurion declared a "Jewish" state in the 1940s. They lived with their neighbors, mostly in relative peace, for thousands of years. That wasn't good enough for the Zionists. They had to "own" the land. They had to kick everybody out but the Jews.

My point about the Jewish terrorism is not to compare and contrast it with Muslim terrorism. Just to point out that separating humankind into Jew, Arab, American, Brit, black, white, etc. etc. etc. is nuts. We're all a bunch of insane monkeys. Look at the world. There's plenty of space. Plenty of food. Plenty of land (we could cull the population a bit over time). There's plenty for everybody. What do we do? We create religions, races, cultures, languages, etc. to separate us into competing tribes so that we can fight for dominance (which basically boils down to mating rights). We're crazy monkeys. Until we decide to stop being crazy monkeys, we're going to continue to fight wars because God (the Big Daddy in the Sky) gave some of us some special land (seems like unfair favoritism from Big Daddy to me - why didn't he give us non-Jews anything? We're good too!).

Have you ever fed chickens? You sprinkle the corn in a wide pattern on the ground - plenty for everybody. You know what the chickens do? They fight over one tiny little patch.

This whole friggin world is one big Monty Python movie.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I will simply repeat the question I asked earlier, the one that wasn't answered; this time to all of you...

Are any of you THERE?

If not, you really have no idea what is truth and what is fiction. If you believe the UN/CNN crap that Israel is deliberately bombing civilians you're not very bright. Israel has nothing to gain by deliberately targeting civilians, and it costs money to do so. Second, do you realize that Hezbolah IS southern Lebanon? Who do you think built much of the infrastructure in southern Lebanon? The Lebanese government? Wrong. Hezbolah has been acting more and more like an autonomous government there; they've built schools, roads, hospitals, etc...all in the effort to buy the loyalty of the Lebanese people who know they're own government has done little for them. Why do you think they won seats in the Lebanese parliment?

Hezbolah are not a bunch of guys with Ak-47's running around in pickups. They are an orgnaized ARMY...an army that by proxy is fighting a war on behalf of both Iran and Syria. They move men and munitions over roads and bridges, through tunnnels across the grid of infrastructure Israel is destroying and they are being supplied and assited by that infrastructure by both Iran and Syria. Israel is completely justified in bombing roads and bridges and anything else that is strategic in nature. They're also completely jutified in attacking Hezbolah even when they hide behind schools and Moscques, which you know they are doing.

So don't hand me this crap about Israel being a terrorist state. If Toronto Canada was sending missiles into Buffalo, not a single one of you would have the slightest compulsion at responding with massive force.

Question...Israel has had Nukes for years...everyone knows it. Yet they haven't used them. Israel's own borders...hence her very existence are threatened, and have been every day for 58 straight years. Yet Israel hasn't used a nuke, but we have. We've also killed tens of thousands of civilians in both Afghanistan and Iraq, not because we're targeting them, but because in war it's sometimes simply not possible to avoid it. It becomes harder when you have cowards hiding in hospitals and schools behind human shields.

The US has not had our very existence threatened...not yet anyway. Do you think we'd use nukes if it were? You betcha we would. Yet Israel hasn't. Now here's another question.

Do you think Hezbolah would use a nuke on Israel if they had one?

You know good and well they would.

It's so easy to quickly dismiss Israel's right to stay in the land based on some weird personal view of what happened 40 centuries ago...fine...forget 4,000 years ago...let's talk about the the fact that these people cannot live in anyone elses land without being slaughtered...are you suggesting we allow 20th century history to repeat? That's what it amounts to if you think we should abandon them.

Israel is the only real democracy in that part of the world an IMO they deserve support on that basis and the recent past alone. If you dissagree...fine. But I repeat what I said before...

Are you over there to know what's going on? If not...why do you trust the UN and CNN? Since when is the UN a reliable source of information? Most of the UN is made up of states that hate the US anyway...but go ahead and buy what they're selling since it's anti-Israel. Just don't come whining around the next time the UN starts talking about us being the real terrorists in Iraq.

[alkemical]

who cares, god's gonna F us up with some hurricanes again - but do we listen... NOOOOOOO

[epicSocialism4tw]

Cool the drama. My point was that Israel has too much influence on U.S. foreign policy, as does corporate America. As far as the Jewish "right" to Israel, that's a joke.

Anyone's claim to any land on the planet is a joke. Your claim is held by your ability to hold it. Why dont we trace every battle on the history of the planet back to the original tribe, research their genetic history, and give them the whole dang ball.

If we are to believe the OT, Joshua led an army into Israel and for the next couple of hundred years, the Jews wiped out the Canaanites (every man, woman, child, AND livestock) and stole their land. That is the land they lay claim to. Why? Because they said that God gave that land to them. I find it weirdly, absurdly, hilarious that all this BS in the 21st century is going on because some people claim that 3500 years ago, God sliced out a little real estate specifically for them. I also think it's more likely that they got kicked out of Egypt because of their religious zealotry, spent 40 years living in the Sinai desert and finally said to themselves, "F this shiite. I'm sick of living in the stinking desert. Let's go kill those Canaanites and steal their land. First, we have to come up with a good reason for doing it that absolves us of all responsibility..." (think of Sam Kenison, more than Charlton Heston - "Hey, we can't live here! Nothin will grow! We gotta go where there's some food!)

I didnt think that such elaborate revisionism could be assembled and accepted reasonably with so few facts.

My point about the Jewish terrorism is not to compare and contrast it with Muslim terrorism.

That's because Muslim terrorism is unparalleled in it's blatant disregard for all of humanity, it's inhumane economic heirarchy of "martyrs" and sheiks, prides itself in the killing of civilians (both foreign and domestic) in the pursuit of persuading shallow bleeding hearts to join their ravenous and sick cause. Meanwhile, the Israeli "terrorists" built a flourishing democracy with a functional electorate and a multi-ethnic/religious populace.

Yeah, dont compare and contrast them because it's like contrasting humans with animals.


Just to point out that separating humankind into Jew, Arab, American, Brit, black, white, etc. etc. etc. is nuts. We're all a bunch of insane monkeys. Look at the world. There's plenty of space. Plenty of food. Plenty of land (we could cull the population a bit over time). There's plenty for everybody. What do we do? We create religions, races, cultures, languages, etc. to separate us into competing tribes so that we can fight for dominance (which basically boils down to mating rights). We're crazy monkeys. Until we decide to stop being crazy monkeys, we're going to continue to fight wars because God (the Big Daddy in the Sky) gave some of us some special land (seems like unfair favoritism from Big Daddy to me - why didn't he give us non-Jews anything? We're good too!).

I'm pretty cynical too, so I cant argue with the idiocy of the whole ordeal. Men are men, and subject to the behavior of the animals that they see themselves as so superior to. There is no doubt in that. It's bred into us. From gene to protein to organelle to cell to tissue to organ to organ system to body to mind. It's too bad that all of those things cloud the soul so much that it thinks that it is bound to them.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Here's a report from people actually on the ground...LEBANESE who are eye wittnesses...not CNN watchers flipping channels and forming their opinions by what they catch between episodes of American Idol.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060802/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

Witnesses said Israeli forces partially destroyed the Dar al-Hikma hospital in Baalbek, where chief Hezbollah spokesman Hussein Rahal said fighting raged for more than one hour. Speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation, residents said the hospital is financed by an Iranian charity that is close to Hezbollah and run by people with ties to the group. Olmert denied claims the forces attacked a hospital, saying "there are no patients there and there is no hospital, this is a base of the Hezbollah in disguise."

Witnesses said Israeli warplanes launched more than 10 attacks around the building, as well as on hills outside the city. Jets later fired a second round of missiles on residential neighborhoods in eastern and northern Baalbek where Hezbollah's Shiite supporters live, witnesses said.

One of the missiles struck the house of the mayor of nearby Al Jamaliyeh, Hussein Jamaleddin, instantly killing his son, brother, and five other relatives.

Interesting...read further and you see the same Lebanese blasting Israel for firing on the areas they just admitted where actually Hezbolah strongholds in disguise. A hospital's actually a "charity" funded by Iran housing Hezbolah fighters, this according to EYE WITNESSES ON THE GROUND WHO LIVE THERE.

But of course people thousands of miles away listening to the UN mouthpiece know better...the same UN that blasts the US as the villian in Iraq after they themselves issues dozens of proclamations against what was going on there long before we got there.

Some of you just don't get it. We will NEVER be seen in a positive light no matter what we do...and the same goes for Israel.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Some of you just don't get it. We will NEVER be seen in a positive light no matter what we do...and the same goes for Israel. :wave:
Actually, a lot of people "get it" just not the way you would like it to be gotten.

The U.S. condoning the slaughter of hundreds of women and children there will add to the growing ME hate for America.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lebanon bloodletting must come to an end (http://tinyurl.com/nx787)
This senseless carnage is unacceptable and counterproductive. It will not achieve Israel's justified and hoped-for goal of security on its northern border. It won't guarantee Israel's security anywhere, for that matter.
And anger at Israel has turned into anger at its main ally, the United States, further compromising America's war on Islamist terrorism.
----------------------------------------------
Vigil Calls for End to Civilian Deaths in Lebanon (http://tinyurl.com/o95cr)
By Martin Weil and Robert E. Pierre
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, August 1, 2006; Page B04

About 450 people, most of them women in somber black, circled silently in front of the White House last night in a solemn vigil and protest to call for an end to death and destruction in Lebanon.

The group, one of the largest to speak publicly here on behalf of Lebanese women and children, included a large number of women of Lebanese descent, as well as members of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.
CONT

-----------


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060802/capt.f00806d6af0c48b0a1ec3889ac984487.iran_israel_ palestinians_lebanon_khomeini_nasrallah_vah102.jpg ?x=380&y=253&sig=kzhfEq6DHQaX9F7iJVhA0g--
Holding posters of Iranian late revolutionary founder Ayatollah Khomeini, center and right, and Lebanese Hezbollah party leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, girls chant slogans, during an anti-Israeli gathering in front of the Lebanese Embassy in Tehran, Iran, Wednesday, Aug. 2, 2006. (AP Photo/Vahid Salemi)

.



-

[epicSocialism4tw]

Here's a report from people actually on the ground...LEBANESE who are eye wittnesses...not CNN watchers flipping channels and forming their opinions by what they catch between episodes of American Idol.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060802/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel


Interesting...read further and you see the same Lebanese blasting Israel for firing on the areas they just admitted where actually Hezbolah strongholds in disguise. A hospital's actually a "charity" funded by Iran housing Hezbolah fighters, this according to EYE WITNESSES ON THE GROUND WHO LIVE THERE.

But of course people thousands of miles away listening to the UN mouthpiece know better...the same UN that blasts the US as the villian in Iraq after they themselves issues dozens of proclamations against what was going on there long before we got there.

Some of you just don't get it. We will NEVER be seen in a positive light no matter what we do...and the same goes for Israel.

The national media needs to sack up and make things right here. They need to make a moral issue out of the terrorist's willingness to put civilians in harms way. A military is not going to waste heavy artillery and airplane fuel bombing civilians.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Some of you just don't get it. We will NEVER be seen in a positive light no matter what we do...and the same goes for Israel.

Please don't tell me you're on the "they just hate us because of our freedom and our way of life" bandwagon, dude.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The king of fairyland will never grasp the realities of the Middle East

A US leader in his second term should have the power to rein in Israel. But George Bush is no ordinary president

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1834554,00.html

Of all the curious things that have been written about Israel's assault on Lebanon, surely the oddest is contained in Paddy Ashdown's article on these pages last Saturday. "There is only one solution to this crisis, and it is the same solution we have to find in Iraq: to go for a wider Middle East settlement and to do it urgently. The US cannot do this. But Europe can."

The US cannot do this? What on earth does he mean? At first sight his contention seems plain wrong. While Israel intends to sustain its occupation of Palestinian territory, a wider settlement is impossible. It surely follows that the country that has the greatest potential leverage over Israel is the country with the greatest power to broker peace. Israel's foreign policy and military strategy is dependent on the approval of the United States.

Though Israel ranks 23rd on the global development index - above Greece, Singapore, Portugal and Brunei - it remains the world's largest recipient of US aid. The US government dispensed $11bn of civil foreign assistance in 2004. Of this, Israel received $555m; the three poorest nations on earth - Burkina Faso, Sierra Leone and Niger - were given a total of $69m. More importantly, last year Israel also received $2.2bn of military aid.

Continued at link.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Please don't tell me you're on the "they just hate us because of our freedom and our way of life" bandwagon, dude.

No, I think that he's more likely on the "they hate us because of our global influence, our power, our traditional ties to Christianity, and our immoral portrayal out of Hollywood" bandwagon.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No, I think that he's more likely on the "they hate us because of our global influence, our power...

More like misuse of influence and global power.

our traditional ties to Christianity, and our immoral portrayal out of Hollywood" bandwagon.

What a joke. :rofl:

If Hollywood and/or "ties to Christianity" were to account for terrorist attacks on or animosity toward America, then the attacks and the animositiy would have started a long time ago.

It's the policy, stupid!

[epicSocialism4tw]

LA, they hated us before. Now, their hate is more prominent because we do business with their billionaires. No secret there. They hate us anyway.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Please don't tell me you're on the "they just hate us because of our freedom and our way of life" bandwagon, dude.
If by "freedom and way of life", you include the fact that they see westerm morals as a product of what they view as "Godlessness" and evil, then yes, that's exactly correct. That's obviously only part of the story. They hate us for supporting Israel also and see us as the obstacle to them retaking the land they think is theirs.

More to the point...Islam itself is fundamentally opposed to ANYTHING that isn't in agreement with their religion and their oppressive way of life, and the single largest influence on the planet that permeates most of the nations on earth is US exported CULTURE. Before the Soviet Union fell, Russians were listening to Bruce Springstein and other American Rock and Roll stars even as they spouted platitudes about the superiority of Marxism and the evils of capitalism. In Communist China prior to the current trend of opening up to the west, people were still influenced by...yes...the US model for freedom (remember Tienamien square?) because they were getting news out of the west through fax machines. Go to the most primitive societies in Africa or the jungles of Brazil and you'll find guys living in huts and wearing T-shirts that say "Oklahoma Sooners" on them. In Japan there are McDonalds popping up all over the place. The point is...the US exports our culture world wide, and they see this as a direct assault on what is basically a model for society that hasn't changed in 1600 years...one that denies EVERYTHING we take for granted.

Is freedom and "our way of life" included in that? Absolutely.

[footstepsfrom#27]

:wave:
Actually, a lot of people "get it" just not the way you would like it to be gotten.

The U.S. condoning the slaughter of hundreds of women and children there will add to the growing ME hate for America.
I notice you carefully avoided the point. LEBANESE ON THE GROUND admit that Hezbolah is hiding behind "hospitals" that have Iranian and Hezbolah connections (in other words they're not really hospitals) and in neighborhoods where they are deliberately putting women and children at risk to use them as human shields. Did you catch that? The people in the area ADMIT that. Interesting that you ignore it.

It makes me wonder...why? WHY would you ignore that?

Perhaps that just doesn't bother you though. Perhaps you don't see the bizzare irony of Hezbolah terrorists who SPECIFICALLY and DELIBERATELY target children are also HIDING BEHIND THEIR OWN CHILDREN. What kind of people are so low...so completely devoid of any human decency at all that they would not only target the enemy's children, but they would hide behind their own as well? Your "good guys" in this conflict are baby killers. They don't kill them accidently while trying to target military targets. They kill them on purpose...that's a FACT you cannot dispute. It's tragic and horrible that chldren are being killed in this conflict. What's even more tragic is that their own people are responsible for their deaths because they hate Israel more than they love their own kids. THAT is truely horrilbe.

Now tell me slug...are you there? If not...how do you know what's really happening? The truth is...YOU DON'T.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I notice you carefully avoided the point. LEBANESE ON THE GROUND admit that Hezbolah is hiding behind "hospitals" that have Iranian and Hezbolah connections (in other words they're not really hospitals) and in neighborhoods where they are deliberately putting women and children at risk to use them as human shields. Did you catch that? The people in the area ADMIT that. Interesting that you ignore it.

It makes me wonder...why? WHY would you ignore that?

Perhaps that just doesn't bother you though. Perhaps you don't see the bizzare irony of Hezbolah terrorists who SPECIFICALLY and DELIBERATELY target children are also HIDING BEHIND THEIR OWN CHILDREN. What kind of people are so low...so completely devoid of any human decency at all that they would not only target the enemy's children, but they would hide behind their own as well? Your "good guys" in this conflict are baby killers. They don't kill them accidently while trying to target military targets. They kill them on purpose...that's a FACT you cannot dispute. It's tragic and horrible that chldren are being killed in this conflict. What's even more tragic is that their own people are responsible for their deaths because they hate Israel more than they love their own kids. THAT is truely horrilbe.

Now tell me slug...are you there? If not...how do you know what's really happening? The truth is...YOU DON'T.
Anyone with any access to any information at all knows what the terrorists do. BUT, I see what BOTH sides do unlike the defenders of the Israelis seem unable to see.
I could care less about either side personally. I'm hoping we leave them to kill each other for eternity if that's what they want to do.

--------------------------------------------------------
Rights group slams Israel for bombing civilians
Thu Aug 3, 4:56 AM ET

BEIRUT (Reuters) -
Israel's military appears to have deliberately bombed civilians in Lebanon and some of its strikes constitute war crimes, U.S.-based rights group Human Rights Watch (HRW) said on Thursday.

HRW said Israel's contention that Hizbollah fighters were hiding among Lebanese civilians did not justify its "systematic failure" to distinguish between civilians and combatants.

"In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians," HRW said in a statement accompanying a report released on Thursday.

"The failures cannot be dismissed as mere accidents and cannot be blamed on wrongful Hizbollah practices. In some cases, these attacks constitute war crimes."

At least 646 Lebanese, mostly civilians, have died in the strikes. The mounting toll, compounded by Sunday's bombing of the Lebanese village of Qana in which 54 civilians died, has fueled international outcry against Israel's tactics in the three-week-old war.

Israel says its strikes destroy Hizbollah infrastructure and stop rocket attacks that have killed 56 and caused large-scale evacuations in Israel.

HRW Executive Director Kenneth Roth said in the many cases of civilian Lebanese deaths investigated by the rights group, the location of Hizbollah members or their weapons stores appeared to have no bearing on the areas attacked.

"Hizbollah fighters must not hide behind civilians. That's an absolute. But the image that Israel has promoted of such shielding as the cause of so high a civilian death toll is wrong," he said in the statement.

The report said that included strikes against civilian vehicles fleeing the violence in southern Lebanon, which Israel says is the targeting of Hizbollah arms and their transport routes.

"Israeli forces have fired with warplanes and artillery on dozens of civilian vehicles, many flying white flags," it said.

"However, none of the evidence gathered by Human Rights Watch or reported to date by independent media sources indicate that any of the attacks on vehicles documented in the report resulted in Hizbollah casualties or the destruction of weapons."

HRW said it based its report on interviews with survivors of attacks, visits to blast sites and information from hospitals, aid groups, Lebanon's government and Israel's defense forces.
http://tinyurl.com/rt669

[footstepsfrom#27]

Anyone with any access to any information at all knows what the terrorists do. BUT, I see what BOTH sides do unlike the defenders of the Israelis seem unable to see.
I could care less about either side personally. I'm hoping we leave them to kill each other for eternity if that's what they want to do.
OK...so basically you get your info from the press like almost everyone else, meaning you don't know jack crap about what's really happening. I get it. Now as to you "unbiased" approach to this conflict...I seem to have missed the places in here where you expressed the same moral outrage over the deliberate missile attacks on Jewish civilians, including children...perhaps I'm not looking hard enough though. Can you point me to the threads where you expressed your outrage and disgust over people deliberately killing Israeli children? I thought I was pretty good on the search feature but I can't seem to find that...

I did find your rant (http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=44414&highlight=Hezbollah) on how you think it's a "myth" that Hezbollah fighters are hiding behind civilians from the left-wing Salon.com article you quoted...a fact that the Lebanese right in the middle of this themselves now also admit...so obviously you were wrong on that, as was your "source". But I guess I missed the part where you're grief stricken over Jewish babies blown to bits by people who not only admit they do that but celebrate it. Would you mind linking me to that so I can read it?

So far I've mainly seen you defending people who enjoy machine gunning children to death and dance in the streets when they do so...the people on the ground admit Hezbollah is hiding behind civilians, a fact you and Salon.com deny...so I guess you know more than the people the bombs are falling on since you have access to Salon.com...to bad they don't or they'd know the truth I guess.

Now where's that link?...the one where you're equally outraged over Jewish babies dying?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

OK...so basically you get your info from the press like almost everyone else, meaning you don't know jack crap about what's really happening. I get it. Now as to you "unbiased" approach to this conflict...I seem to have missed the places in here where you expressed the same moral outrage over the deliberate missile attacks on Jewish civilians, including children...perhaps I'm not looking hard enough though. Can you point me to the threads where you expressed your outrage and disgust over people deliberately killing Israeli children? I thought I was pretty good on the search feature but I can't seem to find that...

I did find your rant (http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=44414&highlight=Hezbollah) on how you think it's a "myth" that Hezbollah fighters are hiding behind civilians from the left-wing Salon.com article you quoted...a fact that the Lebanese right in the middle of this themselves now also admit...so obviously you were wrong on that, as was your "source". But I guess I missed the part where you're grief stricken over Jewish babies blown to bits by people who not only admit they do that but celebrate it. Would you mind linking me to that so I can read it?

So far I've mainly seen you defending people who enjoy machine gunning children to death and dance in the streets when they do so...the people on the ground admit Hezbollah is hiding behind civilians, a fact you and Salon.com deny...so I guess you know more than the people the bombs are falling on since you have access to Salon.com...to bad they don't or they'd know the truth I guess.

Now where's that link?...the one where you're equally outraged over Jewish babies dying? You can rant and rave all you want but my position is really clear. Terrorists are the scumbags of the Earth. Israel is constantly under attack from them and occasionally answers back with attacks that cause far greater damage (civilian) than the original attack they are retaliating for. By doing this, they create MORE terrorists who want to kill Israelis, thus continuing the never ending cycle of "you kill me I kill you".

So as far as I'm concerned we should stop all American taxpayer monies to ALL ME countries that participate in this lunacy.

I posted articles to show you that it isn't completely one-sided and you take as defending terrorists which most Israeli backers do instead of seeing the whole picture.

[alkemical]

Mom, Dad he/she started it!

[footstepsfrom#27]

You can rant and rave all you want but my position is really clear. Terrorists are the scumbags of the Earth. Israel is constantly under attack from them and occasionally answers back with attacks that cause far greater damage (civilian) than the original attack they are retaliating for. By doing this, they create MORE terrorists who want to kill Israelis, thus continuing the never ending cycle of "you kill me I kill you".

So as far as I'm concerned we should stop all American taxpayer monies to ALL ME countries that participate in this lunacy.
So in other words, your solution is for Israel to ignore the constant attacks on their cities with missiles. Question...if the US were being bombed and attacked from Canada DAILY, week after week, year after year...would you take the position that we should ignore it? I can't believe you're reallly that stupid. You seem to be in possession of all your faculties...so I can only conclude your real reason for wanting to withdraw support from Israel is because you'd like to see them destroyed. The Arabs don't NEED our support...or anyone elses. They are hundreds of times richer than Israel, have overwhelming numerical and geographical superiority...thus if the US withdraws support from Israel...they will be exterminated. That's your solution...a solution BTW...shared by this guy: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060803/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel the insane dictator of Iran. Congradulations...you're in good company there.
I posted articles to show you that it isn't completely one-sided and you take as defending terrorists which most Israeli backers do instead of seeing the whole picture.
Yes...where ARE those articles...the ones where you post the other side of the issue? I know they're here...somewhere...but I can't seem to find them.

The "whole picture" in your mind, means swallowing the propaganda from the leftist idiocy that disputes what the Lebanese on the ground themselves are saying...

Now where's that link to all your outrage and grief over Israeli chldren being killed...? I'm still looking...gotta be here somewhere...doesn't it?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So in other words, your solution is for Israel to ignore the constant attacks on their cities with missiles. Question...if the US were being bombed and attacked from Canada DAILY, week after week, year after year...would you take the position that we should ignore it? I can't believe you're reallly that stupid. You seem to be in possession of all your faculties...so I can only conclude your real reason for wanting to withdraw support from Israel is because you'd like to see them destroyed. The Arabs don't NEED our support...or anyone elses. They are hundreds of times richer than Israel, have overwhelming numerical and geographical superiority...thus if the US withdraws support from Israel...they will be exterminated. That's your solution...a solution BTW...shared by this guy: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060803/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel the insane dictator of Iran. Congradulations...you're in good company there.

Yes...where ARE those articles...the ones where you post the other side of the issue? I know they're here...somewhere...but I can't seem to find them.

The "whole picture" in your mind, means swallowing the propaganda from the leftist idiocy that disputes what the Lebanese on the ground themselves are saying...

Now where's that link to all your outrage and grief over Israeli chldren being killed...? I'm still looking...gotta be here somewhere...doesn't it?
It's apparent your blind allegiance for Israel won't allow you to see clearly but I'll say it one more time, I don't care if one idiot is killing another idiot over there regardless of which religious fanatic you support. I do care that American taxes are used to support any of them and that should end.

You characterizing anyone that doesn't agree with your view as a supporter of Iran shows just how far off tangent you really are.

[footstepsfrom#27]

It's apparent your blind allegiance for Israel won't allow you to see clearly but I'll say it one more time, I don't care if one idiot is killing another idiot over there regardless of which religious fanatic you support. I do care that American taxes are used to support any of them and that should end.

You characterizing anyone that doesn't agree with your view as a supporter of Iran shows just how far off tangent you really are.
No...actually it shows that I was wrong the first time arouond; you are stupid after all...either that or you think I am. Iran supports Hezbollah. You support Hezbollah because you want to withdraw support from Israel, who cannot protect themselves apart from our help. Hence...you support Iran, because Hezbollah is Iran's army by proxy, mercenaries if you please. You and the latest Iranian nut-job are in perfect agreement. He's calling for an end to US support for Israel...so are you. You are basically buddies.

What in your world of "logic" makes you adopt the bizzare view that a nation trying to defend themselves from being systematically exterminated by a force that outnumberrs them 60-1, makes them deserve to be characterized as "religous fanatics". I take you mean that all Jews...or at least all Jews living in Israel, are "religious fanatics". Right? It's been proven Jews cannot live in Europe or anywhere else without being persecuted; hence in your view, if Jews don't wish to be led into another holocaust, they're "religous fanatics". This is why I refer to you as stupid..ie; "not very bright". You might be smart about some things...I'm sure you are. But if you honestly believe that Israel trying to defend themselves and maintain their sovereignty in the face of attacks that happen almost every day in that country makes them "fanatics", then yes...you are truly stupid.

Second...let's assume for a moment they ARE religious fanatics. (Personally I think the fanatics are the ones who strap dynamite to their own children to have them blow up innocents, but I'll accept your definition for now that any Jew living in Israel is a "fanatic" for the sake of argument). So what? Are you saying that means they deserve to die? Essentially you ARE saying that because you have the same solution as the dictator of Iran...eradicating them. You're to dissengenuous to come out and say that, but that's what your ideas amount to...the destruction of the state of Israel. I ask again...what if they ARE religiious fanatics...are you suggesting they deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth? Hitler tried that. So did Nero.

The bottom line here is that there are two and ONLY two choices on the table; support Israel or do not support Israel. If we choose not to support them, then they will not be able to defend themselves...hence they cease to exist, which is what you support, even though you don't actually SAY that.

Why don't we adopt this policy of yours EVERYWHERE? Let's end support for South Korea, Taiwan, the Phillipines, Japan, etc...in fact lets withdraw ALL us military supprt from every corner of the globe and retreat into pre-WW I isolationism...OK? Or is it just Israel you want to abandon? Like it or not...we are global leaders and the only country in the world able to maintain a semblance of order. I'm so sorry your tax dollars go to support Israel, but mine go to things I don't agree with either...so I guess we just have to deal with it.

[alkemical]

Oh i so violently disagree with some of your points.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Why don't we adopt this policy of yours EVERYWHERE? Let's end support for South Korea, Taiwan, the Phillipines, Japan, etc...in fact lets withdraw ALL us military supprt from every corner of the globe and retreat into pre-WW I isolationism...OK? Or is it just Israel you want to abandon? Like it or not...we are global leaders and the only country in the world able to maintain a semblance of order. I'm so sorry your tax dollars go to support Israel, but mine go to things I don't agree with either...so I guess we just have to deal with it. Now you're getting it! And for your information, not supplying every ME, African, third world, etc... country in the world with arms and American tax dollars doesn't equate to isolationism.

And we are FAR from the only country in the world that can take care of itself.

Want to tell me how our police dog policies are working out to our advantage throughout the world?

(BTW, I don't believe you're "stupid" for holding the views you do)

[epicSocialism4tw]

Want to tell me how our police dog policies are working out to our advantage throughtout the world?

They are working pretty darn good for the international businessmen that they serve.

[alkemical]

They are working pretty darn good for the international businessmen that they serve.


for better or worse

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Interesting...read further and you see the same Lebanese blasting Israel for firing on the areas they just admitted where actually Hezbolah strongholds in disguise. A hospital's actually a "charity" funded by Iran housing Hezbolah fighters, this according to EYE WITNESSES ON THE GROUND WHO LIVE THERE.

This is just one instance, and it certainly doesn't account for the hundreds of additional Lebanese civilians who have been killed by Israel's indiscriminate use of force.

Observers on the ground in Lebanon have reported that Israel is deliberately targeting civilian areas with no military objectives:

Human Rights Watch Accuses Israel of War Crimes For Indiscriminately Targeting Lebanese Civilians

HRW Emergencies Director Peter Bouckaert speaks from Beirut on the bombing of Qana, Israel’s use of cluster bombs, phosphorous weapons and depleted uranium. Earlier today Human Rights Watch issued a new report titled “Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon."

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/03/1344244

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land: Documentary Examines US Media Coverage of the Israeli Palestinian Conflict

How has the US media covered the conflict in the Middle East? We play an excerpt of the documentary “Peace Propaganda and the Promised Land: U.S. Media & the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.” The film was directed by Bathsheba Ratzkoff and Sut Jhally of the Media Education Foundation.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/03/1351216

Is America Watching a Different War? American, Lebanese and Israeli Panel on How the US Media is Covering the Invasion of Lebanon

Some have suggested that Americans are watching a different war in Lebanon than much of the world. We’re joined by three panelists -- Peter Hart of Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) in New York, Middle East Broadcasters editor Habib Battah in Beirut and Ha'aretz reporter Gideon Levy in Tel Aviv.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/03/1359222

[alkemical]

Words confine and define reality. The words you use, read, think - etc.

think about this:

Why is it that TV and Radio call it PROGRAMMING?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Now you're getting it! And for your information, not supplying every ME, African, third world, etc... country in the world with arms and American tax dollars doesn't equate to isolationism.

And we are FAR from the only country in the world that can take care of itself.
I didn't say we were the only country that could take care of itself. I said we are the only country capable of maintaiing some semblance of order...ie; brokering intervention, creating international cooperation, enforcing economic sanctions, bringing the world's governments into some kind of cooperative synergy to handle problems. It's obvious the UN can't do it, and in the post WW II/post Cold War era, like it or not it's pretty much been up to us because nobody else can do it.
Want to tell me how our police dog policies are working out to our advantage throughout the world?
I don't support a great deal of what we do in the world, but the middle east is not like anywhere else. It's THE strategically vital piece of land on the planet. Israel, whether you want to admit it or not, is our one foothold in the region, our one point of access to intelligence on the ground. If you think that the US simply withdrawing our support from Israel will suddenly make our enemies in the Arab world give up their plans to destroy us, you're living in a dream world. Without Israel, we essentially have no eyes and ears on the ground over there. The Israelis have the best intel in the world over there and we are the beneficiaries of that, something the detractors who howl about our tax dollars virtually never mention.
(BTW, I don't believe you're "stupid" for holding the views you do)
I qualified my remarks adequately in terms of what I meant. It is stupid to consider people trying to defend themselves fanatics...sorry, just the truth.

[footstepsfrom#27]

This is just one instance, and it certainly doesn't account for the hundreds of additional Lebanese civilians who have been killed by Israel's indiscriminate use of force.
It doesn't really matter that it's one instance. Your human rights guys specifically said that this was a myth, something any thinking person knows is BS...but the fact that Lebanese on the ground admit that this has been going on in this instance, reveals that it's obviously happening elsewhere. Or do you think that this is the only incidence of Hezbollah using human shields? What in all our experience with radical Islamists fighting US forces...even fighting each other for that matter...would possible lead you to believe that they are NOT doing this? We've seen it in both Iraq and Afghanistan, guerillas hiding in Mosques, schools, people's homes, hospitals...we know they deliberately target civilians and they admit it...so why on earth would you think this is NOT happening here? It's blatantly obvious that this is part and parcel of the engagement policies that these terrorist units have adopted as standard policy. They've proven over and over again that they care nothing for civilian lives, including their own people. THAT is where your anger should be focused.
Observers on the ground in Lebanon have reported that Israel is deliberately targeting civilian areas with no military objectives:

Human Rights Watch Accuses Israel of War Crimes For Indiscriminately Targeting Lebanese Civilians
Human rights organziations are notoriously leftist and without question anti-Israeli. Working in the non profit/socially responsible business sector as a consultant and financial analyst, I frequently run into politics with all kinds of organizations operating in this sector, and almost 100% of it is coming from the left. That's one reason the two biggest NP/SRB cities in the country are Boston and San Francisco. I divorce politics from policy and advice in working with these organizations, but many of them wear their politics on their sleeves continuously. It's the nature of activism...not all bad either...I'm not saying it is, but just pointing out that HRO's have a definite political agenda, and it doesn't include being friendly with Israel. I don't consider their reports reliable. The fact they claim that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians tells you something if you think about it; 1) an observer on the ground that sees a hellfire missile destroy a home has no idea what is in the mind of the pilot who fired it. Simply observing that the home was destroyed doesn't tell you anything, and 2) HRO observers are not going to be told the truth from Hezbollah guerillas about what is inside a structure or a vehicle.

Israel uses extremely expensive military munitions, most US made, some of their own. Smart bombs and technologically sophisticated lazer guided missiles cost millions. Tell me where the payoff is in wasting that kind of firepower and money on targets that 1) do noting to help them militarily if they're destroyed, and 2) will be certain to hurt them in the court of world opinion? There is none. Think about it logically;

1) Hezbollah and ALL Arab guerilla fighters have already admitted they deliberately target Israeli civilians and proved they'll seek out children for murder. So even if it were PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israel was actually doing likewise, all it would do is put them in the same camp with Hezbollah. But check out the media coverage on this; it's HUGELY disproportionate in favor of negative publicity about Israel killing civilians. Almost NOTHING is ever said about Hezbolah reigning rockets on Israeli towns. This should tell you something...one side not only admits they're doing it, but they celebrate it, yet nothing is said in the press. The other side does not admit doing this and unlike a terrorist model of exchange that profits from civilian deaths, there is no military payoff for them to do this, yet the press can't get enough of telling us this is happening.

2) US experience in firefights with Muslim extremists in Afghanistan, Iraq, and in Beirut in the 1980's proves that they deliberately use human shields and hide behind civilians, mask hospitals and schools, etc...all so that they can create press in their favor from the media that's only to anxious to portray Israel as the aggressor.
HRW Emergencies Director Peter Bouckaert speaks from Beirut on the bombing of Qana, Israel’s use of cluster bombs, phosphorous weapons and depleted uranium. Earlier today Human Rights Watch issued a new report titled “Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon."

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/03/1344244
Now show me an equivalent report on Hezbollah's use of car bombs with nails and broken glass built into bombs, suicide bombers that blew up a Jewish Symagogue or the animals that machine gunned children on a school bus and maybe I'll put some kind of stock in what they're saying. Obviously since these events are documetned FACTS, if this organization says nothing about THAT, they automatically lose their credibility. I trust nothing they say because they are completely biased. Again...find me equivilent reports on Hezbolah attrocities...which BTW have been going on for many years...and I'll listen to what they say on Israel. "Equivilent" BTW...does not mean a single mention of something...find me a stream of protest literature that matches the one they're producing now and I'll consider what they're saying...otherwise, it's total BS.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It doesn't really matter that it's one instance. Your human rights guys specifically said that this was a myth, something any thinking person knows is BS...but the fact that Lebanese on the ground admit that this has been going on in this instance, reveals that it's obviously happening elsewhere.

Actually, what you have here is the word of some anonymous "Lebanese civilian" vs. the word of a member of Human Rights Watch. Both parties are purportedly offering eyewitness accounts.

If you really want to get into keeping score re: civilian casualties here, I would suggest you look not only at the current conflict, but at Israel's last invasion of Lebanon in '81 as well. Pay particular attention to the number of Palestinians (most of whom were women and children) living in a refugee camp who were murdered in cold blood by Lebanese "Christians" while the Israelis stood watch and prevented anyone from leaving the camp.

In any event, here's my position in a nutshell:

Both the Israelis and Hezbollah are terrorists and thugs who employ reprehensible and barbaric tactics. The Israeli leader is an imbecile (and, surprise, another chickenhawk) who is making the same policy blunders Bush made in invading Iraq.

As an American, my primary concern is with the long-range consequences of America's lopsided support for Israel for America's interests in the region and at home.

[epicSocialism4tw]

In any event, here's my position in a nutshell:

Both the Israelis and Hezbollah are terrorists and thugs who employ reprehensible and barbaric tactics. The Israeli leader is an imbecile (and, surprise, another chickenhawk) who is making the same policy blunders Bush made in invading Iraq.

Israel's tactics are barbaric? They are precise. They target bases, individuals, and support networks. War is ugly. It's brutal. There is always collateral damage.

Equating Israel (stable democracy acting in defense of itself in the current situation) with Hizbullah is incorrect and irresponsible. Hizbullah is an Iran-funded terror group for crying out loud.

As an American, my primary concern is with the long-range consequences of America's lopsided support for Israel for America's interests in the region and at home.

Im sure that the Saudi's would argue that they have had quite a bit of American support in the region as well.

Israel's defense is in America's interest in numerous ways. Most of which have already been discussed here, so I wont touch on them.

Simply put: America is not in Israel's corner for religious reasons. Religious reasons dont put money in oil barons' pockets. It is in America's financial and strategic interest to keep an ally as good as Israel in the region.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Israel's tactics are barbaric? They are precise. They target bases, individuals, and support networks.

Looks like somebody hasn't been paying attention.

Human Rights Watch Accuses Israel of War Crimes For Indiscriminately Targeting Lebanese Civilians

HRW Emergencies Director Peter Bouckaert speaks from Beirut on the bombing of Qana, Israel’s use of cluster bombs, phosphorous weapons and depleted uranium. Earlier today Human Rights Watch issued a new report titled “Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon."

http://www.democracynow.org/article..../08/03/1344244

If Israel is so "precise" in its attacks, then how do you explain 450 Lebanese civilians killed in just two weeks?

How do you explain the targeting of civilian infrastructure?

War is ugly. It's brutal. There is always collateral damage.

That's funny - last time I looked at the First Commandment, it still read "thou shalt not kill." There was no "unless its a Muslim - then it's just collateral damage" clause.

Equating Israel (stable democracy acting in defense of itself in the current situation) with Hizbullah is incorrect and irresponsible.

Israel's indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force goes WAY beyond mere self-defense. Israel isn't simply acting to defend itself - it's acting to destroy Lebanon as a state.

Hizbullah is an Iran-funded terror group for crying out loud.

Yes it is. And Israel is a US-funded terror group.

Israel's defense is in America's interest in numerous ways. Most of which have already been discussed here, so I wont touch on them.

America's lopsided support for Israel has done nothing but jeopardize its interests in the ME insofar as it has increasingly isolated itself from most of Israel's neighbors (who, consequently, hate us now more than ever.)

Simply put: America is not in Israel's corner for religious reasons.

This is a strange assertion coming from a member of a voting block that has more influence with the current administration than almost any other group.

Religious reasons dont put money in oil barons' pockets.

But long, protracted wars do.

Snake handlers and oil barons: feeding from the same trough.


It is in America's financial and strategic interest to keep an ally as good as Israel in the region.

Keeping Israel as an ally doesn't entail co-signing anything and everything Israel does to its neighbors.

Ronald Reagan pulled the plug on U.S. arms sales to Israel the last time Israel invaded Lebanon in '81.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Simply put: America is not in Israel's corner for religious reasons. Religious reasons dont put money in oil barons' pockets.

Are you sure this is your final answer?

Christian right steps up pro-Israel lobbying

Christians United for Israel strut their stuff in nation's capital

Over the past two decades, as the Christian Right has grown in political power in the United States, there has been parallel growth in support for Israel. A number of organizations made up of conservative evangelical and Jewish leaders have been founded, and millions of dollars have been raised and donated to charities in Israel.

Now, a new group plans to take it up a notch, becoming a significant presence in any political policy debates involving Israel.

In mid-July, while the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict continued to escalate, Christians United for Israel (CUFI) -- an organization founded less than six months ago by Texas evangelist Rev. John C. Hagee, pastor of the 18,000-member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, and the author of "Jerusalem Countdown," a 2006 book about a nuclear-armed Iran -- rolled into Washington, D.C., for its first major get-together.

More than 3,400 delegates from across the country attended the inaugural meeting.

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=21185

Lobbying for Armageddon

Some influential evangelical leaders are lobbying for an attack on Iran. But it's not about geopolitics -- it's about bringing about the End Times.

In a perfect world, a reporter at last week's press conference with George Bush and Tony Blair would have asked Bush, in the presence of his principal European ally, if he believes the European Union is the Antichrist.

Although it sounds like the kind of Pat Robertson lunacy that makes even the wingnuts run for the nearest exit, it's a question Bush should be forced to answer. Bush and other leading Republicans have lined up behind a growing movement of Christian Zionists for whom a European Antichrist figures prominently in an end-times scenario. So they should be forced to explain to the rest of us why they're courting the votes of people who believe our allies are evil incarnate. Could it be that the central requirement for their breathlessly anticipated Armageddon -- that the United States confront Iran -- happens to dovetail so nicely with the neoconservative war agenda?

At the center of it all is Pastor John Hagee, a popular televangelist who leads the 18,000-member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas. While Hagee has long prophesized about the end times, he ratcheted up his rhetoric this year with the publication of his book, "Jerusalem Countdown," in which he argues that a confrontation with Iran is a necessary precondition for Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ.

http://www.alternet.org/story/39748/

[footstepsfrom#27]

LABF...sometimes we agree on things and sometimes we don't, this being one of those times we don't. You shouuld remember that I'm allied with neither the left or the right...so don't be suprised when I take an opposing view.

I'm on the way out the door but would you like me to post you an extensive list of occurences where HRO's including HRW have refused to cite certain regimes with unfavorable HR reports because of their poltiics? I can do so later. You can do it yourself and save me the trouble if you want to.

Your characterizations of "reports" (plural) by Lebanese on the ground reporting that Hezbollah is using human shields and has connections with a "hospital" that Israel targeted with the HRW activists motivated by politics is curious. One side has no reason whatsoever to say what they did, and probably lots of reason not to because Hezbollah will kill their own people as soon as they'll kill anyone else if they get in their way. The other side has a political agenda and nothing to lose (their life) by reporting Israeli attrocities and ignoring those on the other side.

Incidently...I think I'm pretty well connected in the evangelical community. I know of no sane individual who thinks the US should deliberately try to provoke Armageddon by invading middle eastern nations. That's one of the more idiotic things I've seen reported in here. Even if some whack job did say such a thing, it in no way represents what Christians collectively believe. In fact, biblical theology does not even permit that notion. Nothing in the Bible indicates that man has any control over when the end time events happen, quite the opposite. So if someone suggests that the US can bring about the end of the world by our own actions and planning, they know virtually nothing about their own theology.

Consider the fact that there are fools in every camp, and resist the urge to take advantage of that to make a point please. I don't think every democrat is a socialist, or every repub a racist.

BTW...this thread was supposed to be about the idiotic statements made by closet neo-Nazi Pat Buchannan and we got sidetracked. I haven't heard you retract earliler comments that his statements had validity...and since NOTHING this clown says should be taken with any respect, I think that would be appropriate.

Or are you now also willing to give Bush credit if he manages to say something you agree with? This bafoon is Bush to the 10th power...with a higher IQ. If he ever got his foot in the Whitehouse door, he'd make the smirking chimp look like Thomas Jefferson by comparison.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Just to let you know...John C. Hagee, the guy who founded this organization "Christians United for Israel", comes on the tube down here reguarly. I consider him a complete doofus. I can't believe anyone takes this guy seriously. He's solidly in the TV evangelist category of other kooks like Robert Tilton and Ernest Aingley...about as far off the plantation as it gets if you're talking mainstream evangelicalism. His website alone ought to tell you that.

I'd venture that a good portion of his 18,000 membership that he claims are long since either gone from his church or dead.

[alkemical]

Peace sells...but who's buyin'?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm on the way out the door but would you like me to post you an extensive list of occurences where HRO's including HRW have refused to cite certain regimes with unfavorable HR reports because of their poltiics?

Actually, I'm more concerned with whether their facts are straight in the present instance or not.

Your characterizations of "reports" (plural) by Lebanese on the ground reporting that Hezbollah is using human shields and has connections with a "hospital" that Israel targeted with the HRW activists motivated by politics is curious. One side has no reason whatsoever to say what they did, and probably lots of reason not to because Hezbollah will kill their own people as soon as they'll kill anyone else if they get in their way. The other side has a political agenda and nothing to lose (their life) by reporting Israeli attrocities and ignoring those on the other side.

Not necessarily. Don't forget: before Israel's current invasion, Lebanese popular support for Hezbollah was circling the drain, and Lebanon's government was pro-American.

Incidently...I think I'm pretty well connected in the evangelical community. I know of no sane individual who thinks the US should deliberately try to provoke Armageddon by invading middle eastern nations. That's one of the more idiotic things I've seen reported in here. Even if some whack job did say such a thing, it in no way represents what Christians collectively believe. In fact, biblical theology does not even permit that notion. Nothing in the Bible indicates that man has any control over when the end time events happen, quite the opposite. So if someone suggests that the US can bring about the end of the world by our own actions and planning, they know virtually nothing about their own theology.

Well, as the two articles I just posted point out, plenty of people on the Christian right take this guy John C. Hagee and others like him seriously, and these people have considerable sway with this administration (see Terri Schiavo.)

BTW...this thread was supposed to be about the idiotic statements made by closet neo-Nazi Pat Buchannan and we got sidetracked. I haven't heard you retract earliler comments that his statements had validity...and since NOTHING this clown says should be taken with any respect, I think that would be appropriate.

Why would I want to retract my earlier comments when I agree with just about every word of the article in question? My agreement with the article in question, BTW, doesn't imply that I agree unconditionally with everything Buchanan says.

Or are you now also willing to give Bush credit if he manages to say something you agree with?

Hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, I suppose.

Actually, I was just thinking about this the other day. There was actually one little thing Bush did that I liked: he supported that "do not call" telemarketing legislation.

Unfortunately, this doesn't overcome the fact that Bush is an illegal usurper and not a legitimate president.


This bafoon is Bush to the 10th power...with a higher IQ. If he ever got his foot in the Whitehouse door, he'd make the smirking chimp look like Thomas Jefferson by comparison.

Perhaps. All I know is that I agree with the views expressed in the present article. I also agree with a lot of Buchanan's views about illegal immigration.