Where do we get free will?

[Hotwheelz]

No wrong answer. Just philosophising.:peace:

[Meck77]

from within.....

"If you do what you've always done....You get what you've always gotten"

[Odysseus]

You mean there is no buy one get one free? You mean to tell me the easy monthly payments are all a ruse? What about the coupon book? That was just another gimmick to get into my pocket?

Free will isn't free. It requires some measure of thought, some purpose and intent. Life without direction is expensive. If you make a choice stand on it. That is as good as it gets.

Honesty freely given is sweet.

[Kaylore]

From Tony Robbins. :approve:

http://www.mainstreet-usa.net/images/tonycurrent.jpg

[Hotwheelz]

from within.....

"If you do what you've always done....You get what you've always gotten"

But who/what gives it to us?

[Requiem]

Jay Cutler.

[freak6]

Evolution of the mind. Instincts lessoned as we evolved the ability to think, communicate, and act on our own. Chimps have free will. We aren't special. It's just an evolutionary process animals develop as thier brains abilities increase over millions of years.

[Spider]

Free will = Wal Mart isle 12

[GonzoLays]

Free Will?

Free will is how well you process past experiences and mold them into the present.

If you were truly free you could walk straight into a pit of snakes and lay there for days if you so choose. But if you have been previously bitten by snakes and are deathly afraid of them then something in your mind will not allow you to do so.

How well you mold your past experiences and inner most fears produces the "freeness" of you will.

As far as your mind is concerned, your past is always your present.

[Atlas]

There really is no such thing as "free will". This is because man does not have a "free will". Man does have the ability to make choices. Man does not have a will which is "free" to do what it pleases.

Man is bound by his religion, his wife, In-Laws and laws imposed on him by his government and work place.

Let's face it, man is nothing but a slave.

[Orange_Beard]

Mommy.

[Odysseus]

There really is no such thing as "free will". This is because man does not have a "free will". Man does have the ability to make choices. Man does not have a will which is "free" to do what it pleases.

Man is bound by his religion, his wife, In-Laws and laws imposed on him by his government.

We need to build better sheep.

[freak6]

Free will is how well you process past experiences and mold them into the present.



Totally disagree with everything in your post Gonzo.

Atlas, how do we not have free will. I'm not bound by anything but the laws of physics. Somewhere some dude just committed a murder/suicide on his wife and in-laws... He's not bound by anything.

[Old Dude]

...
Let's face it, man is nothing but a slave.

If you were really Kyla Cole, that would almost make me horny.

[GonzoLays]

Totally disagree with everything in your post Gonzo.



Uhhhh, okay...explain why.

[Play2win]

Virtue Ethics is not a bad place to start...

[KipCorrington25]

One thing free will is not is the ability to do whatever you want, when you want, without thought. As Jean-Jacques Rousseau argued this is just being a slave to your impulses and thoughts. An animal without the ability to reason isn't free but rather enslaved to their impulses.

[alkemical]

Free Will?

Free will is how well you process past experiences and mold them into the present.

If you were truly free you could walk straight into a pit of snakes and lay there for days if you so choose. But if you have been previously bitten by snakes and are deathly afraid of them then something in your mind will not allow you to do so.

How well you mold your past experiences and inner most fears produces the "freeness" of you will.

As far as your mind is concerned, your past is always your present.



Only to some people.


I had a woman break my heart by cheating on me - but i refuse to live in fear of 'getting hurt'. I fell in a firepit - yet i still make and sit near camp fires.... I broke my arm standing (then falling) off of a tree stump - yet i still do.

Free will is different for everybody. I mean i am able to shift my 'reality' to almost anyone's reality (using reality tunnels) - beliefs are just tools to accomplish a goal.


As for the question on who gives us free will..... what creates thought? Before you think "i'd like to go outside" - what causes that idea? When you figure that out - you figure out who gives you free will and how to use it.


"Nothing is true, everything is possible" -

[freak6]

Uhhhh, okay...explain why.

Your comparing using experiances to make choices. Your example of snakes is just the fear of a past experiance stopping someone from going around snakes. But they still have the free will to do it, that is just overcoming thier fear.

People use past experiances to guide thier choices, but they still have the free will to make the same mistake twice.

My past is not my present. Some rich kids join the Navy and fight in Nam, and get medals, some rich kids avoid the draft, become taxas air national guardsmen, go awol when they do coke, and one of them becomes the worst president in history. Another one joined the peace corps.

[alkemical]

There really is no such thing as "free will". This is because man does not have a "free will". Man does have the ability to make choices. Man does not have a will which is "free" to do what it pleases.

Man is bound by his religion, his wife, In-Laws and laws imposed on him by his government and work place.

Let's face it, man is nothing but a slave.


Until man realizes that the only rules that exist are the ones he makes - that man is not free.


I once had to pawn everything i pretty much owned, and i still don't have much or many possessions - but one thing is certain - we are born into a form of slavery.

[alkemical]

Your comparing using experiances to make choices. Your example of snakes is just the fear of a past experiance stopping someone from going around snakes. But they still have the free will to do it, that is just overcoming thier fear.

People use past experiances to guide thier choices, but they still have the free will to make the same mistake twice.

My past is not my present. Some rich kids join the Navy and fight in Nam, and get medals, some rich kids avoid the draft, become taxas air national guardsmen, go awol when they do coke, and one of them becomes the worst president in history. Another one joined the peace corps.


The hindu's (or a sect/et al) believe that you live life backwards.... that brings an interesting quotient into deja vu....

[DomCasual]

From Tony Robbins. :approve:

http://www.mainstreet-usa.net/images/tonycurrent.jpg
Tony Little sets people free. Tony Robbins for your mind. Tony Little for your body.
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0399530312.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[Odysseus]

Totally disagree with everything in your post Gonzo.

Atlas, how do we not have free will. I'm not bound by anything but the laws of physics. Somewhere some dude just committed a murder/suicide on his wife and in-laws... He's not bound by anything.

Gonzo was simply saying all things are connected. You cannot seperate your past from your future. What soil you grew in does not determine what seed but what soil is always what soil.

Atlas is not getting confused by past or present. He is simply stating the fact that you have no access to absolute knowledge therefore your course is predictable and not random. They guy who makes the rules owns the sheep.

[Taco John]

But who/what gives it to us?


Why is that important?

Heck, if quantum mechanics is right, we might not even have free will at all... Just the illusion of it.

[alkemical]

Gonzo was simply saying all things are connected. You cannot seperate your past from your future. What soil you grew in does not determine what seed but what soil is always what soil.

Atlas is not getting confused by past or present. He is simply stating the fact that you have no access to absolute knowledge therefore your course is predictable and not random. They guy who makes the rules owns the sheep.


Not true for everybody......

i make the rules, unfortunatley sometimes they are bad rules.

[alkemical]

Why is that important?

Heck, if quantum mechanics is right, we might not even have free will at all... Just the illusion of it.


unless of course you figure out how to 'play the game' taco......

[Old Dude]

Oh, good God, Ames. What have you done to your name?

[Odysseus]

Oh, good God, Ames. What have you done to your name?

It's freedom of choice. He's gone mad and killed himself off. There is no more Ames. He is erasing his past. We encouraged to communicate with his re-incarnation.

[Odysseus]

Not true for everybody......

i make the rules, unfortunatley sometimes they are bad rules.

Wrong. You cannot change the rules of gravity. You are within the rules of the creator hence that is why you are called created. Prove you are not created then you can change the rules.

We are all gods...small g....it's a g thing.

[alkemical]

It's freedom of choice. He's gone mad and killed himself off. There is no more Ames. He is erasing his past. We encouraged to communicate with his re-incarnation.

Originally Posted by Old Dude
Oh, good God, Ames. What have you done to your name?



Well i guess this is as good a thread as any -


I went on a camping trip intending to go on a vision quest. Well i fasted for 3 days before, and then i did a meditation and everything became clear. I realized that in order to get to where i want to go - i had to get rid of what was holding me back.

Since the devil lives inside of me - i have to make peace with it - not fight it - i have to understand the full nature of my dark nature.

So i made an effigy of me, and wrote down all that i despise of my self. My manipulations, my quick-to-wrathness, etc etc -

So then i did another meditation and projected amesj523 into the effigy - and then held a funeral for myself. I then cremated myself and scattered my ashes among the pines.

no longer am i ruled by paranioa and fear - no longer am i possesive of people i hold dear - no longer am i amesj523.

[STBumpkin]

Free Will has nothing to do with actions. Your 'will' is simply what you wish to do. When people say "he acted of his own free will" it just means he did it without coersion from anyone else. That statement "acted of his own free will" means he wanted to do it, and then acted on it. I believe you can have free will while being tied up in a box, because your mind is still free. The only way your "free will" can be taken away from you is by chemical or physical labotamy. I guess free will is everything that goes on in your brain that is not instinctive (anything that is not a knee jerk reaction).

[alkemical]

Wrong. You cannot change the rules of gravity. You are within the rules of the creator hence that is why you are called created. Prove you are not created then you can change the rules.

We are all gods...small g....it's a g thing.

really?

What about learning to manipulate gravity with magnets or sound? If i can manipulate matter in order to move it from one place to another - defeating gravity - that is truley a miracle..... ;)


I am not created - i only exist.

[Old Dude]

Originally Posted by Old Dude
Oh, good God, Ames. What have you done to your name?



Well i guess this is as good a thread as any -


I went on a camping trip intending to go on a vision quest. Well i fasted for 3 days before, and then i did a meditation and everything became clear. I realized that in order to get to where i want to go - i had to get rid of what was holding me back.

Since the devil lives inside of me - i have to make peace with it - not fight it - i have to understand the full nature of my dark nature.

So i made an effigy of me, and wrote down all that i despise of my self. My manipulations, my quick-to-wrathness, etc etc -

So then i did another meditation and projected amesj523 into the effigy - and then held a funeral for myself. I then cremated myself and scattered my ashes among the pines.

no longer am i ruled by paranioa and fear - no longer am i possesive of people i hold dear - no longer am i amesj523.

Cool.

I also went on a camping trip and did a lot of meditation. I also made a major decision. In this case, it was to remain ignorant about something that has bothered me for a long time. To let sleeping dogs lie.

Sometimes, you just have to get away from the hussle and hassle to get a clear perpective on the bigger issues.

[alkemical]

Cool.

I also went on a camping trip and did a lot of meditation. I also made a major decision. In this case, it was to remain ignorant about something that has bothered me for a long time. To let sleeping dogs lie.

Sometimes, you just have to get away from the hussle and hassle to get a clear perpective on the bigger issues.


I needed the 'space' as to not have the police called on me - sometimes neighbors don't understand

[Old Dude]

In my case, the "space" was a need to see the stars overhead. The Milky Way is gorgeous.

[Odysseus]

really?

What about learning to manipulate gravity with magnets or sound? If i can manipulate matter in order to move it from one place to another - defeating gravity - that is truley a miracle..... ;)

I am not created - i only exist.

The first guy to run a 4 minute mile changed our PERCEPTIONS because after that a 4 minute mile was common. The rules are the same but our understanding is altered.

I'm telling you making peace with jail doesn't mean you escaped.

[Hulamau]

From Tony Robbins. :approve:

http://www.mainstreet-usa.net/images/tonycurrent.jpg

Hardy Har Har !!!

[Willynowei]

Democracy to some extent exists and it rules. So does capitalism.

Free Will on the otherhand, is utterly overated and totaly misused as a phrase. First of all... I don't see how it even exists...

[Crushaholic]

The concept of "free will" and "God" are seemingly contradictory. If God knows what you will do from the time you are born to the time you die(as I have been taught), you truly DON'T have free will. That's one of the great mysteries of faith for which I struggle...

[manchambo]

Anyone ever hear this paradox?

If God knows everything, including everything we will ever do, and is always correct, there is no free will. This is so because (1) God already knows what we will do in the future and (2) for us to do anything different would be to make God incorrect, which is impossible.

I will post my answer to this paradox later.

Edit: odd that Crushaholic and I posted this simultaneously.

[Taco John]

I needed the 'space' as to not have the police called on me - sometimes neighbors don't understand



Uh oh... I had better ban Will Smith's account before he sees this or he might decide to relaunch his rapping career.

[alkemical]

The first guy to run a 4 minute mile changed our PERCEPTIONS because after that a 4 minute mile was common. The rules are the same but our understanding is altered.

I'm telling you making peace with jail doesn't mean you escaped.


Yes, but rules can be broken....

[alkemical]

Uh oh... I had better ban Will Smith's account before he sees this or he might decide to relaunch his rapping career.


lol - TJ -

[alkemical]

crush & manchambo -

I think it would be how you'd define "god" -

My concept of god doesn't really have a heaven/hell as defined by judeo-christian standards.

[Odysseus]

Anyone ever hear this paradox?

If God knows everything, including everything we will ever do, and is always correct, there is no free will. This is so because (1) God already knows what we will do in the future and (2) for us to do anything different would be to make God incorrect, which is impossible.

I will post my answer to this paradox later.

Edit: odd that Crushaholic and I posted this simultaneously.

There are only mathematically so many ways to do anything. Some people live there lives like it's a game of chance. Some people live there lives like it's a game of probability. Some people live there lives like games are for kids and there has to be more rules and structures to this. Some people can't count. The numbers do not change. God does not change. What we create or don't create through the numbers that GOD provides is all that is...but wait. We didn't create the numbers. We were given them.

It's a deck of cards. Free will is choosing or creating the game.

[alkemical]

There are only mathematically so many ways to do anything. Some people live there lives like it's a game of chance. Some people live there lives like it's a game of probability. Some people live there lives like games are for kids and there has to be more rules and structures to this. Some people can't count. The numbers do not change. God does not change. What we create or don't create through the numbers that GOD provides is all that is...but wait. We didn't create the numbers. We were given them.

It's a deck of cards. Free will is choosing or creating the game.


yes but there are ways to do the math to have answers to come up in your favor.

[Odysseus]

Yes, but rules can be broken....

Those are called NEW rules.

(or superstitions, beliefs, understanding.....)

Isn't it amazing how even the most far fetched prophecy can sometimes turn into common sense? I know you aren't into Judeo Christian understanding but look into Benedicto Spinoza just for fun. Interesting perspective for a Christian but he would be widely despised today.

[Old Dude]

The Rationalists (and Kant, I think) saw Freedom of the Will as a Necessary Truth. A Priori. Self Evident.

Neitzche saw it as a Necessary Lie.

Either way, what difference does it make?

People make choices all the time, and whether they are pre-determined or whether they issue from some ultimate end-point rules-maker, the decision- maker will be held accountable by society. And if society is just a set of predetermined actions, it can't be held accountable for holding its members accountable. Ad infinitum.

In the end, it all means that we don't sell can openers here, so you just have to improvise.

[alkemical]

Those are called NEW rules.


Ok QT -

When i do tarot readings for people i know - do the cards predict the future - or does my spread of the cards make the future? (do the cards load into the OS of my brain and then replicate the future using symbols on the cards) I mean i do run a 90% accuracy rate on my readings....

[broncosteven]

Originally Posted by Old Dude
Oh, good God, Ames. What have you done to your name?



Well i guess this is as good a thread as any -


I went on a camping trip intending to go on a vision quest. Well i fasted for 3 days before, and then i did a meditation and everything became clear. I realized that in order to get to where i want to go - i had to get rid of what was holding me back.

Since the devil lives inside of me - i have to make peace with it - not fight it - i have to understand the full nature of my dark nature.

So i made an effigy of me, and wrote down all that i despise of my self. My manipulations, my quick-to-wrathness, etc etc -

So then i did another meditation and projected amesj523 into the effigy - and then held a funeral for myself. I then cremated myself and scattered my ashes among the pines.

no longer am i ruled by paranioa and fear - no longer am i possesive of people i hold dear - no longer am i amesj523.

Thats deep.

Anyone read Razor's Edge by Somerset Maugham? The dude Larry I think went on all these trips to find him self but he was really inside himself all along or something like that. I read it along time ago so don't grade me on my synopsis. It was a real good book I should read it again soon.

[alkemical]

Those are called NEW rules.

(or superstitions, beliefs, understanding.....)

Isn't it amazing how even the most far fetched prophecy can sometimes turn into common sense? I know you aren't into Judeo Christian understanding but look into Benedicto Spinoza just for fun. Interesting perspective for a Christian but he would be widely despised today.


So are "you" hardware, software or both?

[alkemical]

Thats deep.

Anyone read Razor's Edge by Somerset Maugham? The dude Larry I think went on all these trips to find him self but he was really inside himself all along or something like that. I read it along time ago so don't grade me on my synopsis. It was a real good book I should read it again soon.


Popeye is a great gnostic too

"I am what i am"

[Odysseus]

yes but there are ways to do the math to have answers to come up in your favor.

You invented the math. God created the numbers.

Remember the movie Rain man? How did it get the math in his head? Free will?

[Odysseus]

So are "you" hardware, software or both?

I am a fractal made up bad food and Gatoraide.

[alkemical]

You invented the math. God created the numbers.

Remember the movie Rain man? How did it get the math in his head? Free will?


From the director/writer ;)

[Taco John]

Anyone ever hear this paradox?

If God knows everything, including everything we will ever do, and is always correct, there is no free will. This is so because (1) God already knows what we will do in the future and (2) for us to do anything different would be to make God incorrect, which is impossible.

I will post my answer to this paradox later.

Edit: odd that Crushaholic and I posted this simultaneously.



The answer to the paradox is quantum theory. Every choice has been made and exists in parallel universes. People are not here to necessarily "make" free choices. They're here to experience them, and understand why they made the choices that they have made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_many-worlds_interpretation

[Odysseus]

Ok QT -

When i do tarot readings for people i know - do the cards predict the future - or does my spread of the cards make the future? (do the cards load into the OS of my brain and then replicate the future using symbols on the cards) I mean i do run a 90% accuracy rate on my readings....

The best card readers knows the cards are the cards. The cards never lie. You just don't read them correctly. You have to get out of the way for the cards to tell you anything.

Do this. Take out all the bad cards. Force the cards to say what you want them to and the cards will still try to align with what is right regardless.

You can program your subconscious mind to do some incredible things but in the end we ALL have limitations. Death is a limitation. This is something that Emperor Chin struggled with his whole life. He conquers all of China surviving fierce battle after battle but in the end he's dead.

Limitations are niether good nor bad. They just are.

[alkemical]

The best card readers knows the cards are the cards. The cards never lie. You just don't read them correctly. You have to get out of the way for the cards to tell you anything.

Do this. Take out all the bad cards. Force the cards to say what you want them to and the cards will still try to align with what is right regardless.

You can program your subconscious mind to do some incredible things but in the end we ALL have limitations. Death is a limitation. This is something that Emperor Chin struggled with his whole life. He conquers all of China surviving fierce battle after battle but in the end he's dead.

Limitations are niether good nor bad. They just are.


I think we really aren't far apart really - i think it's just a few minor details.


i have to bow out for today - i'm leaving work

[broncosteven]

I think we really aren't far apart really - i think it's just a few minor details.


i have to bow out for today - i'm leaving work


My head hurts now after reading this thread. Can we bash Chef fans or something?

[manchambo]

The answer to the paradox is quantum theory. Every choice has been made and exists in parallel universes. People are not here to necessarily "make" free choices. They're here to experience them, and understand why they made the choices that they have made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_many-worlds_interpretation

Perhaps not totally different from your parallel universes explanation, but the answer that makes the most sense to me is that God (if it exists) exists outside of time such that the terms "future" and "already" have no meaning. God doesn't know or experience things sequentially, the way we do. He always already knows everything simultaneously.

[Odysseus]

Perhaps not totally different from your parallel universes explanation, but the answer that makes the most sense to me is that God (if it exists) exists outside of time such that the terms "future" and "already" have no meaning. God doesn't know or experience things sequentially, the way we do. He always already knows everything simultaneously.

Taco's definintion simply states that includes yours in that he is talking about the whole of experience.

We are creatures in 3D. If we were to appear in 2D we would appear to be everywhere almost simultaneously. If God is 4D or better that would explain why time is in reality out of context.

Of course that would explain why Trint Green is not god not even for example.

[freak6]

Good thread.

[24champ]

Tony Little sets people free. Tony Robbins for your mind. Tony Little for your body.
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0399530312.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://radio.weblogs.com/0107064/MyImages/stuart-smalley.jpg

....and lets not forget Stuart Smalley for your confidence.:thumbsup:

[Old Dude]

The answer to the paradox is quantum theory. Every choice has been made and exists in parallel universes. People are not here to necessarily "make" free choices. They're here to experience them, and understand why they made the choices that they have made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_many-worlds_interpretation

This is amazing stuff. It's only one possible solution to the paradox, but it makes the most sense to me.

[Tredici]

But who/what gives it to us?

In the strictest concept of free will no one has it. Not if you are instructed by anyone in society. Not if you are given religious training before you are old enough to say yes or no. Not if you are taught to pledge alligiance to a flag before you understand what those words mean. Not if you are schooled, coached, or directed. From birth you are molded to the concepts of those around you.

Only by learning to free think will you be able to accept or reject those teachings.

[Old Dude]

This is amazing stuff. It's only one possible solution to the paradox, but it makes the most sense to me.

Except I need to modify that to point out that I'm only in tune with the physical state. Whether there is any rhyme or reason behind it is another question entirely.

Ultimately, I'm pretty sure it has something to do with dwarves and a boy named Kenneth, but I haven't quite got it pegged beyond that.

[Kid A]

The answer to the paradox is quantum theory. Every choice has been made and exists in parallel universes. People are not here to necessarily "make" free choices. They're here to experience them, and understand why they made the choices that they have made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_many-worlds_interpretation

I can only begin to get my head around a lot of that, but is really intriguing. It kind of reminds me of a short story I had to read for a Lit class a while back called The Garden of Forking Paths. It touched on the infinite realities idea and sparked my interest in the concept. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garden_of_Forking_Paths

[mattleecrew]

I dont know about free, but a guy down on canal st. was gonna sell me 2 wills for $25. And if I bought a 3rd for $15 dollars more he would throw in a burberry purse for free.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Why is that important?

Heck, if quantum mechanics is right, we might not even have free will at all... Just the illusion of it.

Yep.

The philosophical notion of free will is sort of bound to Newtonian mechanics, isn't it?

The foregone conclusion is that the self is atomistic (e.g., a noun rather than a verb, metaphorically speaking.)

[Willynowei]

The concept of "free will" and "God" are seemingly contradictory. If God knows what you will do from the time you are born to the time you die(as I have been taught), you truly DON'T have free will. That's one of the great mysteries of faith for which I struggle...

You should look into the bible for the answers, or perhaps ask whoever "taught" you for scriptural evidence, that way, it will be more clear to you.

In the book of Genesis, i don't know if you have ever heard of the story of Jacob wrestling with God. Anyways, he wins. Now that can be interpreted many ways, and i will say no more than I dare to on this subject.

Perhaps it means that God can't MAKE us do anything. If we fight with God, we will win, submission to God is by our choice, so i would consider us free to choose.

But again, i don't see how logically free will comes into this, or if it exists at all, because free will contradicts free will if you break it down to Positive Free Will and Negative Free Will as i was once taught.

[Arkie]

it all happens in the lil electrodes in our head

[Old Dude]

it all happens in the lil electrodes in our head

And all sorts of chemicals too. We are all slaves to dopamine.

[Arkie]

And all sorts of chemicals too. We are all slaves to dopamine.

LOL WTF is life anyway?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The concept of "free will" and "God" are seemingly contradictory. If God knows what you will do from the time you are born to the time you die(as I have been taught), you truly DON'T have free will. That's one of the great mysteries of faith for which I struggle...

Free will and the Judeo/Christian/Islamic conception of God are indeed incompatible, given the latter's supposed attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence, etc.

The problem of evil exposes this contradiction in full.

Hence, the believers try to resolve one paradox (evil) by raising another (man's freedom.)

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think that the duality is what is important. We see it in physiology in the nature vs. nurture debate. We see it in Kirkegaard vs. Calvin.

Out of the duality grows the hierarchy of ethical and motivational behaviors and their categorizations.

Personally, I think that our understanding of the universe as a linear entity on the continuum of time and the interaction of natural laws is rudimentary and ignorant. I think that there is a greater nature of the universe that exists without dependance on time as a mover of destinies, and instead reaches into the realm of time from it's eternal domain. A place where natural processes do not interrupt the stability of the elegant construct. The natural laws that govern the universe are like embers, ashes, and shadows that are thrown forth from its unchanging flame. We dance on the embers as they burn out.

Ultimately YHWH, the creator God that governs the Universe, looks at whether or not you really want to reside with Him. He is just. You have a choice, and that choice is made through your actions.

Okay...I believe that free will is given.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by Old Dude
Oh, good God, Ames. What have you done to your name?



Well i guess this is as good a thread as any -


I went on a camping trip intending to go on a vision quest. Well i fasted for 3 days before, and then i did a meditation and everything became clear. I realized that in order to get to where i want to go - i had to get rid of what was holding me back.

Since the devil lives inside of me - i have to make peace with it - not fight it - i have to understand the full nature of my dark nature.

So i made an effigy of me, and wrote down all that i despise of my self. My manipulations, my quick-to-wrathness, etc etc -

So then i did another meditation and projected amesj523 into the effigy - and then held a funeral for myself. I then cremated myself and scattered my ashes among the pines.

no longer am i ruled by paranioa and fear - no longer am i possesive of people i hold dear - no longer am i amesj523.

I went through something like that once.... I ate a dozen powered donuts and I felt better.

[Crushaholic]

crush & manchambo -

I think it would be how you'd define "god" -

My concept of god doesn't really have a heaven/hell as defined by judeo-christian standards.

That's just it. The concept of "free will" makes me wonder about the existence of the judeo/christian version of "God". What I was told is that we just have to operate on faith alone and find out the answers when we die and go to Heaven, which is a bit ludicrous.

[alkemical]

The answer to the paradox is quantum theory. Every choice has been made and exists in parallel universes. People are not here to necessarily "make" free choices. They're here to experience them, and understand why they made the choices that they have made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_many-worlds_interpretation


Hmm, i wonder how my choices now affect the 'me' in the past, or the 'me' in the future - i wonder what reaction my actions have.

[alkemical]

That's just it. The concept of "free will" makes me wonder about the existence of the judeo/christian version of "God". What I was told is that we just have to operate on faith alone and find out the answers when we die and go to Heaven, which is a bit ludicrous.


It's not for me, that's how i will phrase it.


To me the rules that are setup in some doctrines are so absurd only man could have thought of it. That being said, if you lived like jesus - you'll be another krisha ;)

[fontaine]

The concept of "free will" and "God" are seemingly contradictory. If God knows what you will do from the time you are born to the time you die(as I have been taught), you truly DON'T have free will. That's one of the great mysteries of faith for which I struggle...

Who says god know what you will do from the time you are born to the time you die?

That doesn't sound like something god would say.

[Odysseus]

Who says god know what you will do from the time you are born to the time you die?

That doesn't sound like something god would say.

God knew you in your mother's womb. How is he not going to know the entire creation of possibilities for you?

God reached out across the Internet to touch lives of how many people from a small question from a young man whose life is a wheel chair.

Consider the power of that my bi podal companions.

[alkemical]

God knew you in your mother's womb. How is he not going to know the entire creation of possibilities for you?

God reached out across the Internet to touch lives of how many people from a small question from a young man whose life is a wheel chair.

Consider the power of that my bi podal companions.


I don't know what blood cell 4002028 is doing right now...

[Old Dude]

I don't know what blood cell 4002028 is doing right now...

Nor do you want to.

Trust me.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I don't know what blood cell 4002028 is doing right now...

You do know what it's doing in a sense. Your circulatory system knows and communicates that to the brain. If you had to consciously account for every cell in your body, you wouldnt have time to think of anything else.

[alkemical]

You do know what it's doing in a sense. Your circulatory system knows and communicates that to the brain. If you had to consciously account for every cell in your body, you wouldnt have time to think of anything else.


My point exactly.

[Crushaholic]

Who says god know what you will do from the time you are born to the time you die?

That doesn't sound like something god would say.

Why not? According to judeo/Christian teachings, God is all-knowing and He has a plan that was set into motion when he created our existence. God wasn't created. He was always there. Human logic can't wrap their brains around that and have to rely on faith.

[Odysseus]

I don't know what blood cell 4002028 is doing right now...

Don't worry. God's got it handled. You are supposed to be working on other stuff anyway. Didn't your read the owner's manual on this thing?

[epicSocialism4tw]

My point exactly.

What is your point?

[alkemical]

Don't worry. God's got it handled. You are supposed to be working on other stuff anyway. Didn't your read the owner's manual on this thing?


No i left it in the womb.

[alkemical]

What is your point?


As above, so below.


If god is represented as all encompassing the universe, we would be no different than a 'cell' in a larger organism.

[epicSocialism4tw]

As above, so below.
If god is represented as all encompassing the universe, we would be no different than a 'cell' in a larger organism.

To me that doesnt mean that God is the universe. My tradition says that man is made in God's image to be a participant in purveying His laws in our sphere of influence.

Your metaphor of body-God is one that is used in Christianity, but in a different capacity. Christians believe in the "body of Christ" which illustrates the individual roles of people within the group and their contribution to the upward growth of the church to a more Godly and complete state. Every part born of God with purpose, every part contributes to the whole.

As far as the body representing the higher nature of the universe, I would have to say that I think that the situation is much different. I believe that God is an entity that exists outside of the universe with agents that act within it. God is not the universe.

[alkemical]

To me that doesnt mean that God is the universe. My tradition says that man is made in God's image to be a participant in purveying His laws in our sphere of influence.

Your metaphor of body-God is one that is used in Christianity, but in a different capacity. Christians believe in the "body of Christ" which illustrates the individual roles of people within the group and their contribution to the upward growth of the church to a more Godly and complete state. Every part born of God with purpose, every part contributes to the whole.

As far as the body representing the higher nature of the universe, I would have to say that I think that the situation is much different. I believe that God is an entity that exists outside of the universe with agents that act within it. God is not the universe.


Well if we are made in God's image, then he must have been an alien and not some eye in the sky.

Actually the reference i used was to adam kadmon. (Heavenly body). Not to mention if everyone is doing 'as designed' then nothing is out of god's making. Gays, hermaphrodites, etc - those are the will god. So we are all part of a bigger organism. So everyone would be contributing to the whole.



Why could not GOD be the UNIVERSE? Just because your faith says so?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well if we are made in God's image, then he must have been an alien and not some eye in the sky.

Not necessarily. I believe that God's representation here in the universe (outside of things like beauty and love that show character) is an intangible presence undetectable by anything but mind. I also believe that Yeshua of Nazareth was the one God, and that he submitted himself to the laws of his creation to exhibit his commitment to man, and ultimately was killed because he was not what he was expected to be, and the politics of man decided so.

Actually the reference i used was to adam kadmon. (Heavenly body). Not to mention if everyone is doing 'as designed' then nothing is out of god's making. Gays, hermaphrodites, etc - those are the will god. So we are all part of a bigger organism. So everyone would be contributing to the whole.

We are all part of the universe. We are bound to matter and energy. I believe that there is a part of us that is eternal, and that we are not just physiological engines born on the crest of the sum of all physical laws. I also believe that God created us separate from himself, and that is a gift.

Why could not GOD be the UNIVERSE? Just because your faith says so?

No, because I believe that the universe is only a creation, and that God is something completely other and unrecognizeable by the human senses as part of the creation.

[Hotwheelz]

God knew you in your mother's womb. How is he not going to know the entire creation of possibilities for you?

God reached out across the Internet to touch lives of how many people from a small question from a young man whose life is a wheel chair.

Consider the power of that my bi podal companions.


Actually, this is all very interesting to me. It was a question I had to answer in my class, and I thought it'd make an interesting discussion. Glad it didn't turn into a flame war.

Made my day.

:D

[alkemical]

Not necessarily. I believe that God's representation here in the universe (outside of things like beauty and love that show character) is an intangible presence undetectable by anything but mind. I also believe that Yeshua of Nazareth was the one God, and that he submitted himself to the laws of his creation to exhibit his commitment to man, and ultimately was killed because he was not what he was expected to be, and the politics of man decided so.



We are all part of the universe. We are bound to matter and energy. I believe that there is a part of us that is eternal, and that we are not just physiological engines born on the crest of the sum of all physical laws. I also believe that God created us separate from himself, and that is a gift.



No, because I believe that the universe is only a creation, and that God is something completely other and unrecognizeable by the human senses as part of the creation.



So then god is an alien.

[broncosteven]

Not necessarily. I believe that God's representation here in the universe (outside of things like beauty and love that show character) is an intangible presence undetectable by anything but mind. I also believe that Yeshua of Nazareth was the one God, and that he submitted himself to the laws of his creation to exhibit his commitment to man, and ultimately was killed because he was not what he was expected to be, and the politics of man decided so.



We are all part of the universe. We are bound to matter and energy. I believe that there is a part of us that is eternal, and that we are not just physiological engines born on the crest of the sum of all physical laws. I also believe that God created us separate from himself, and that is a gift.



No, because I believe that the universe is only a creation, and that God is something completely other and unrecognizeable by the human senses as part of the creation.


So where does Original Sin come in? & why are we taught to beg forgiveness & submit to god or the son to enter heaven & have eternal life. This is the part I have trouble with & is reason I am agnostic.

[epicSocialism4tw]

So then god is an alien.

God is alien, God is not an alien in the terms that you are implying.

[alkemical]

God is alien, God is not an alien in the terms that you are implying.


If god is a being that exists outside of the universe that has created everything there in - god is AN alien.


IMO the 'created us in his image thing' - has more to do with our spiritual nature than our physical nature.


Not that any of us are right anyway... ;)

[Crushaholic]

Actually, this is all very interesting to me. It was a question I had to answer in my class, and I thought it'd make an interesting discussion. Glad it didn't turn into a flame war.

Made my day.

:D

Screw you, cripple!;) ;D

[Haroldthebarrel]

Well if we are made in God's image, then he must have been an alien and not some eye in the sky.

Actually the reference i used was to adam kadmon. (Heavenly body). Not to mention if everyone is doing 'as designed' then nothing is out of god's making. Gays, hermaphrodites, etc - those are the will god. So we are all part of a bigger organism. So everyone would be contributing to the whole.



Why could not GOD be the UNIVERSE? Just because your faith says so?

same thing I thought. God might just be THE UNIVERSE. that would be pretty omnipotent and omniscientific. (and all the other omnis;))

logically then, to understand the universe would be to understand god, thus getting closer to god.

of course it is as new age and gnostic as it could ever be.

[Hotwheelz]

Screw you, cripple!;) ;D

*bends over*

[alkemical]

same thing I thought. God might just be THE UNIVERSE. that would be pretty omnipotent and omniscientific. (and all the other omnis;))

logically then, to understand the universe would be to understand god, thus getting closer to god.

of course it is as new age and gnostic as it could ever be.



Not only that, but if the universe is a macrocosm - why can't 'man' be the microcosm - i mean if we are god's reflection - wouldn't that mean each one of us is a star? that spark, that divine light, does that not get reflected back?

Maybe we are fragments of god itself living in 'time' (because outside of 'time', nothing grows) and in order to make god understand himself we are set upon this perception of the 'world' and 'reality' in order to return to our origin after this expierence.

Time has screwed man up as much as any dogma ever invented.

[Odysseus]

You do know what it's doing in a sense. Your circulatory system knows and communicates that to the brain. If you had to consciously account for every cell in your body, you wouldnt have time to think of anything else.

My blood is smarter than your blood! :wiggle:

[Haroldthebarrel]

Not only that, but if the universe is a macrocosm - why can't 'man' be the microcosm - i mean if we are god's reflection - wouldn't that mean each one of us is a star? that spark, that divine light, does that not get reflected back?

Maybe we are fragments of god itself living in 'time' (because outside of 'time', nothing grows) and in order to make god understand himself we are set upon this perception of the 'world' and 'reality' in order to return to our origin after this expierence.

Time has screwed man up as much as any dogma ever invented.

Not to say God is purely and positively transcendental in that the universe is expanding but it isnt in the natural three dimension way. (there is nothing outside to expand into). A first mover if you will.
Secondly the universe will exist forever in time even if there is no mass, making it totally independent of time as far as causality is concerned.

I dont think i really believe this more than it is food for thought though.

However I would say that I think the initial question is basically meaningless.
Who gives free will? The fact that you exist and have a free will to exploit that idea is kinda all you need.
Those kinda question always lead me to the Wittgensteins Tractatus and his "what we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence".
Thus, metaphysical propositons are meaningless in that they are unanswerable, but they are still very important.
Ethics are important regardless to whether you can find any "apriori" propositions that verify ethical propositions as truths or in other cases as facts.

[Odysseus]

So where does Original Sin come in? & why are we taught to beg forgiveness & submit to god or the son to enter heaven & have eternal life. This is the part I have trouble with & is reason I am agnostic.

Ames died for your sins dude. You need to walk into the woods and become whole just like the Ames has clearly shown you.

The Ames does not require any of that forgiveness crap. Go kick you enemy in the balls and kick him out of your stash.

The Ames offers you forgiveness lo go verily and sin less than the last time.

Do not doubt the Ames. He walks here among us...unless you send him a plane ticket and good seats the Broncos games then he flies.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Dueling Quotes

Personally, I think that our understanding of the universe as a linear entity on the continuum of time and the interaction of natural laws is rudimentary and ignorant.

Ultimately YHWH, the creator God that governs the Universe, looks at whether or not you really want to reside with Him. He is just. You have a choice, and that choice is made through your actions.


First, you denounce the linear conception of space/time and causality as "ignorant," (not that I disagree) and then you proffer what is essentially a cosmological argument for the existence of God (viz., God as "creator" or cosmic architect/carpenter and the attendant artifactual model of the universe?)

Weird.

Implicit in your image of God as "governor" of the universe is the foregone conclusion that matter is essentially stupid and requires some external intelligence to shape it.

The phrase "whether or not you really want to reside with Him" assumes, once again, an ontological distinction between God and "His" creation/creatures.

[alkemical]

Ames died for your sins dude. You need to walk into the woods and become whole just like the Ames has clearly shown you.

The Ames does not require any of that forgiveness crap. Go kick you enemy in the balls and kick him out of your stash.

The Ames offers you forgiveness lo go verily and sin less than the last time.

Do not doubt the Ames. He walks here among us...unless you send him a plane ticket and good seats the Broncos games then he flies.


:)

This is one of the best posts ever!


LOL good job! :)


PS - did you ever read "Principia Discordia" - it sounds like gibberish when you first read it - but it's got some valid points....

[alkemical]

Not to say God is purely and positively transcendental in that the universe is expanding but it isnt in the natural three dimension way. (there is nothing outside to expand into). A first mover if you will.
Secondly the universe will exist forever in time even if there is no mass, making it totally independent of time as far as causality is concerned.

I dont think i really believe this more than it is food for thought though.

However I would say that I think the initial question is basically meaningless.
Who gives free will? The fact that you exist and have a free will to exploit that idea is kinda all you need.
Those kinda question always lead me to the Wittgensteins Tractatus and his "what we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence".
Thus, metaphysical propositons are meaningless in that they are unanswerable, but they are still very important.
Ethics are important regardless to whether you can find any "apriori" propositions that verify ethical propositions as truths or in other cases as facts.


Discussing metaphysics is fun for me. I have my own set of beliefs but i also see alot of similarities between others - just said differently or in a different package.

But you have a good post and honestly you say alot of good points i just wish to say i appreciate the different POV you offer.

:)

[epicSocialism4tw]

First, you denounce the linear conception of space/time and causality as "ignorant," (not that I disagree) and then you proffer what is essentially a cosmological argument for the existence of God (viz., God as "creator" or cosmic architect/carpenter and the attendant artifactual model of the universe?)

Weird.

I offered no argument. I offered a belief.

Implicit in your image of God as "governor" of the universe is the foregone conclusion that matter is essentially stupid and requires some external intelligence to shape it.

Not necessarily. Natural laws are inherent in the interaction of matter in the universe. The grand clock metaphor.

The phrase "whether or not you really want to reside with Him" assumes, once again, an ontological distinction between God and "His" creation/creatures.

And?

[Haroldthebarrel]

Discussing metaphysics is fun for me. I have my own set of beliefs but i also see alot of similarities between others - just said differently or in a different package.

But you have a good post and honestly you say alot of good points i just wish to say i appreciate the different POV you offer.

:)

I think I wasnt clear enough. it is not that I think metaphysic or ethical discussion are neither fun nor interesting. It is that they are in the end answerless, thus they become meaningless or senseless if you will.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I offered no argument. I offered a belief.

OK, but how can you reject the linear or Newtonian notion of space-time and/or causality and embrace a notion of God as a First Cause?

Not necessarily. Natural laws are inherent in the interaction of matter in the universe. The grand clock metaphor.

What does this have to do with your image of God as the "governor" of the universe?

And?

And this sort of dualism of creator/creation also seems to be a vestige of the same sort of Newtonian thinking you initially dismissed as "ignorant."

That is to say, the idea that the material world is an artifact or construct which has been 'put together' by some ontologically distinct agency or intelligence sort of died with Newtonian physics and the emergence of modern physics.

[fontaine]

God knew you in your mother's womb. How is he not going to know the entire creation of possibilities for you?

God reached out across the Internet to touch lives of how many people from a small question from a young man whose life is a wheel chair.

Consider the power of that my bi podal companions.

People can't create and define God.

It's the other way around.

Some of the craziest ideas about religion start off with "God is, or does, or will etc"

[fontaine]

Why not? According to judeo/Christian teachings, God is all-knowing and He has a plan that was set into motion when he created our existence. God wasn't created. He was always there. Human logic can't wrap their brains around that and have to rely on faith.

Yeah but those teachings are like the blind leading the blind.

I do have faith but that doesn't mean I believe everything written down about God in some religious book. When it comes to God I believe most people (myself included) have absolutely no clue but try to explain away things they can't possibly understand in terms of a higher power or a plan and whatnot.

[Odysseus]

:)

This is one of the best posts ever!

LOL good job! :)

PS - did you ever read "Principia Discordia" - it sounds like gibberish when you first read it - but it's got some valid points....

I have a book for you "The lazy man's guide to enlightenment" That guy is just flat out funny. He starts from the position that Peyote (Drugs) are good but advises strongly against it for most people because drugs will also bring out your mental weakness. He advised to get a guide if you want to do that kind but the book isn't really about that. He is right to the point with a lot of his conversation and methodology. You walk away with a better appreciation of hippies but you still want to smack them in the mouth for some of the other crap they believe.

St Jude is the dude. If you need a saint in a hurry that guy works over time. I don't know what kind of saint you are going to be Ames reincarnated. You better step up and show something pope like during this off season. Do you have any pull with the football gods? Can you see that the Chiefs are totally humiliated whenever they play the Broncos?

[Odysseus]

1//Yeah but those teachings are like the blind leading the blind.

I do have faith but that doesn't mean I believe everything written down about God in some religious book. When it comes to God I believe most people (myself included) have absolutely no clue but try to explain away things they can't possibly understand in terms of a higher power or a plan and whatnot.

2//People can't create and define God. It's the other way around.
Some of the craziest ideas about religion start off with "God is, or does, or will etc"

Short version of what you are saying:
1. God cannot communicate effectively to man through writings.
2. God has created us but we as people have no idea what that means.

Long version of what I am saying:
1. God exists and persists in the hearts and deeds of man of what incarnation we decide is the only one. We EACH are empowered with God in us as part of genetic materials so that God is written in our hearts whether we understand what we do with it or not.
2. Jesus is the only one that died for our sins so by default HE is the big daddy saint mack daddy to the mack.
3. Buddha is.
4. Mohammed was.
5. Ames was and is but ain't
6. Tiger is no saint
7. We are limited by our beliefs NOT by reality. Reality IS.

[Odysseus]

People can't create and define God.

It's the other way around.

Some of the craziest ideas about religion start off with "God is, or does, or will etc"

In high end investing if you take off the brakes real investing is a very dangerous place.

In high society if REAL freedom were practiced life would be a very scary and different place.

We as people are only comfortable with a modicum of risk. We don't like change. We don't like ideas that don't into neat packages.

In high end spirtuality the real sprituality would scare the CRAP out of you. I think horror movies were created by people who took a dark road.

[Odysseus]

I think I wasnt clear enough. it is not that I think metaphysic or ethical discussion are neither fun nor interesting. It is that they are in the end answerless, thus they become meaningless or senseless if you will.

This from a guy who posts on a Internet sports board? LOL We are sure solving world problems posting here. Yessiree!

[alkemical]

I think I wasnt clear enough. it is not that I think metaphysic or ethical discussion are neither fun nor interesting. It is that they are in the end answerless, thus they become meaningless or senseless if you will.


However I believe self knowledge and awareness is not a wasted effort to endevor.

I discuss for fun, and each person's reality tunnel offers me something new and different about 'reality'.

[alkemical]

I have a book for you "The lazy man's guide to enlightenment" That guy is just flat out funny. He starts from the position that Peyote (Drugs) are good but advises strongly against it for most people because drugs will also bring out your mental weakness. He advised to get a guide if you want to do that kind but the book isn't really about that. He is right to the point with a lot of his conversation and methodology. You walk away with a better appreciation of hippies but you still want to smack them in the mouth for some of the other crap they believe.

St Jude is the dude. If you need a saint in a hurry that guy works over time. I don't know what kind of saint you are going to be Ames reincarnated. You better step up and show something pope like during this off season. Do you have any pull with the football gods? Can you see that the Chiefs are totally humiliated whenever they play the Broncos?


I'm no more than a man who first woke up a few 'years' ago, and have been lucky to recieve greater awareness every so often. So in some ways i don't really like exaultation status.


I lived that book before reading it QT - i came to the conclusion that Tim Leary had it wrong. Drugs sometimes can let you look in the window, but you have to figure out the key to open the door.

[alkemical]

In high end investing if you take off the brakes real investing is a very dangerous place.

In high society if REAL freedom were practiced life would be a very scary and different place.

We as people are only comfortable with a modicum of risk. We don't like change. We don't like ideas that don't into neat packages.

In high end spirtuality the real sprituality would scare the CRAP out of you. I think horror movies were created by people who took a dark road.


It does sometimes, but when you learn that everyone has the capcity for such things - and learn that balance. I spent 14 years in twilight before i could expierence the joys of night and day.

[Odysseus]

I'm no more than a man who first woke up a few 'years' ago, and have been lucky to recieve greater awareness every so often. So in some ways i don't really like exaultation status.


I lived that book before reading it QT - i came to the conclusion that Tim Leary had it wrong. Drugs sometimes can let you look in the window, but you have to figure out the key to open the door.

There is not just one lock. There is not just one key.

[alkemical]

There is not just one lock. There is not just one key.


Of course - i was just using a metaphore.

[Odysseus]

It does sometimes, but when you learn that everyone has the capcity for such things - and learn that balance. I spent 14years in twilight before i could expierence the joys of night and day.

Everyone has the capacity to be kind, noble and engaging yet they aren't. What makes you think that capacity has anything to do with reality?

Most people are stupid. They mimic and have no concept of original thought. They barf up daily headlines, stats, quotes, and things their mommie told them. They act as if being able to count, read, write and the most rudimntary Prima facie knowledge qualifies them as knowing something.

Superior knowledge has nothing to do with typing on the Internet and revelation has nothing to do with putting all your energies into being right. Sometimes the guy who loses actually is the winner. It's never simple.

How do you know you are not still in twilight? You think this is truly all that there is? Have you reached the top? Why were you down there anyways? What was down there that you needed to understand?

[Old Dude]

...Most people are stupid. They mimic and have no concept of original thought. ...

My last original thought was in 1988, and frankly, it was a really bad one.

[Odysseus]

Of course - i was just using a metaphore.

Ames reborn is it alright if I call you Clav? Clav. I am tired. I am going to save cyberspace the extra verbage and I'm going to walk in 130 degree heat away from this computer thingy. We'll talk more later.

[alkemical]

Everyone has the capacity to be kind, noble and engaging yet they aren't. What makes you think that capacity has anything to do with reality?

Most people are stupid. They mimic and have no concept of original thought. They barf up daily headlines, stats, quotes, and things their mommie told them. They act as if being able to count, read, write and the most rudimntary Prima facie knowledge qualifies them as knowing something.

Superior knowledge has nothing to do with typing on the Internet and revelation has nothing to do with putting all your energies into being right. Sometimes the guy who loses actually is the winner. It's never simple.

How do you know you are not still in twilight? You think this is truly all that there is? Have you reached the top? Why were you down there anyways? What was down there that you needed to understand?



Oh I just don't walk in twilight everday, like i did before. I still get very depressed and i can get very 'up' at the same time. I still probably have a suicidal thought every week - but i have learned to not let it consume me.

I got stuck down there because i built a wall. This huge magnificent wall. After my father (who was schizophrenic) in a state of lucidity killed himself because he knew he couldn't promise saftey. It was probably one of the most easiest choices he had to make. (he was real sick, like he fill a 1% group for the level he was at.)

I learned to lothe myself. I learned how to break my reality tunnels and see that ideas and beliefs were shackles as well as tools. I learned manipulation, i learned about the dark side of love. I learned mysoginy. I learned extreme violence as a means for survival. I learned that the dark side is much easier to attain than the 'light' side (mere semantics really).


but i learned how to write feelings on paper and write songs and stories. I learned the power of "the word". I learned how to write things that people had to confront. I learned how authority wasn't always right (i just went about it wrong).


I learned some very very good skills in dealing with people and how flexible you are at shaping the world you 'see'.

It just took me alot longer to realize how 'right' i was, and how wrong i am.

[Odysseus]

My last original thought was in 1988, and frankly, it was a really bad one.

Lucky bastige. I must have had a 1,000 original thoughts that come to find out later were just copies of copies. What a ripoff!

I think the brain needs updates like any good OS. My updater must be broken. I think I'm stuck in time in 1914 or something.

Do you realize that the day after Eddie McCaffrey broke his leg that New York was attacked and the world has never been the same? -- This moment of Broncos irrelevance was brought to you by SPAM. When you can't get enough in your email box. Come online to www.orangemane.com and let one of our SPAM expeditors hook you up. Operators are standing by!

[alkemical]

Ames reborn is it alright if I call you Clav? Clav. I am tired. I am going to save cyberspace the extra verbage and I'm going to walk in 130 degree heat away from this computer thingy. We'll talk more later.


Not a problem.

[Odysseus]

Oh I just don't walk in twilight everday, like i did before. I still get very depressed and i can get very 'up' at the same time. I still probably have a suicidal thought every week - but i have learned to not let it consume me.

A beautiful mind was a very interesting movie. Even though I am not a big Russell Crowe fan the movie was amazing.

O.K. I'm out. Peace.

[Haroldthebarrel]

However I believe self knowledge and awareness is not a wasted effort to endevor.

I discuss for fun, and each person's reality tunnel offers me something new and different about 'reality'.

Again I am not making myself clear. My point is that I am very Wittgensteinian on matters of real and eidetic propositions. A member of the first would be physical propositions and the latter would be ethics or whatever. just to be very brief.
What distinguishes the two is that one is real and can be answered through observations and/or logics/mathematics.
The other one is impossible to answer.
That makes metaphysical statements in a sense senseless. They cannot be really disputed other than in what is a consensus of a congregation/society.
However it is not that they are without meaning. Ethics are important. Metaphysics can be important to beings.
I would really recommend reading Wittgensteins "tractatus logico-philosophicum" and "philosohical investigations". They are both kinda hard to read, but they are so grounbreaking and made me see another side that I really found interesting.
What i dont like is when these things is getting mixed up. For example creationism who really is a system that is based as a tautology. It is always true being that the system is composed so that it always confirms itself.

To me, I just find these kind of discussion interesting and fun. You almost always get to adress a side of yourself that you perhaps didnt know existed.
However to confront Quiettigers point, i dont think it is wrong to know yourself enough that you know that the place where you voice your opinion wont make the world change. At the best it might make another "change" or at least find another meaning not know to him/her before.:
)

[alkemical]

Again I am not making myself clear. My point is that I am very Wittgensteinian on matters of real and eidetic propositions. A member of the first would be physical propositions and the latter would be ethics or whatever. just to be very brief.
What distinguishes the two is that one is real and can be answered through observations and/or logics/mathematics.
The other one is impossible to answer.
That makes metaphysical statements in a sense senseless. They cannot be really disputed other than in what is a consensus of a congregation/society.
However it is not that they are without meaning. Ethics are important. Metaphysics can be important to beings.
I would really recommend reading Wittgensteins "tractatus logico-philosophicum" and "philosohical investigations". They are both kinda hard to read, but they are so grounbreaking and made me see another side that I really found interesting.
What i dont like is when these things is getting mixed up. For example creationism who really is a system that is based as a tautology. It is always true being that the system is composed so that it always confirms itself.

To me, I just find these kind of discussion interesting and fun. You almost always get to adress a side of yourself that you perhaps didnt know existed.
However to confront Quiettigers point, I never saw the point of knowing yourself enough that you still involve yourself in something even if it will never change the world.;)



Harrold,

For your last paragraph:

My friends have told me that i have changed the world for them, i don't believe i have personally. I think that i just give them mirrors. But if it changes my world and their world - then the world does change (even if it is just our perception of what we saw before is now expanded than where we were before).

I will give the books you have listed a place though, and will locate them to read.


I do think i understand your point - to some extent - but i find your view very interesting.


My goal isn't to figure out what god is, or where we came from. But how to motivate and incorporate change in people so they understand that really - we are all magicians in some way or another.

[Odysseus]

Has anyone heard that Tatum Bell is hanging out with Tony Robbins lately? No? Well he should.

[Maximus]

Why is that important?

Heck, if quantum mechanics is right, we might not even have free will at all... Just the illusion of it.

Exactly... Free will has to be defined by the physical and the mental abilities of Man.

1. If a person truly has free will, that person would be able to break any law of physics. For instance, Instead of Evil Kinevil using a rocket cycle to jump the snake river canyon he could have jumped it without the use of a mechanical device. It can be argued that he had free will to attempt such a feat, but the physics prevented the physical from happening.

b. The mental part of kinevil was limited by his perception and knowledge of the physical world. which is really the entire answer to the whole debate. Free will is determined by the extent of a persons knowledge of the physical and mental world. If kinevil had the knowledge of Nickola Tesla he would possess more free will. As we know our ability to process stimilus creates our individual perception of the world. Kinevil was limited by what he could physically do and what he knew. This applies to all of us.

c. I want to go outside and look at a naturally occuring rainbow today... Well the water particles are floating around... the sun is out I can't see any rainbows... Why?
It's my free will to see one... but, physically I don't have the vision and the laws of science are preventing me from seeing the rainbow. So I am limited by my vision, physical science and physical positioning.

[Maximus]

No wrong answer. Just philosophising.:peace:

Sorry my friend but there are right and wrong answers. The discussion would be BS if everyone's value judgements had equal footing in a phylosophical discussion. In other words you can't just float an opinion with no basis in fact.

[Haroldthebarrel]

Sorry my friend but there are right and wrong answers. The discussion would be BS if everyone's value judgements had equal footing in a phylosophical discussion. In other words you can't just float an opinion with no basis in fact.

philosophy has never really based itself upon facts. some theories have been verified houndreds years later, but still philosophy is a factless science.

However philosophy does base itself upon truths, which is a logical line of work.

Thus, the major philosophical objections to theories like Creatonism and Psychoanalysis isnt that they are hard to impossible to verify, but that they are based in a way that they always confirms themselves. I.e they are both tautologies.

I suggest reading Russels "principia mathematica" or Wittgensteins two books. Or even reading "Cambridge guide to Wittgenstein" which is a great book to all of us having problems reading very difficult theories.

[Odysseus]

Sorry my friend but there are right and wrong answers. The discussion would be BS if everyone's value judgements had equal footing in a phylosophical discussion. In other words you can't just float an opinion with no basis in fact.

Red Rocket wanted an open discussion about general philosophy. He got it. In the context of what the question was asked you can float a lugee if you wanted to and be correct.

It's just a bunch of guys sitting around saying "Dude" a lot. How do you say dude incorrectly. It's a dude thing.

I understand your point but dude it's a sports forum. It's a wanna be jocks forum not the wanna be Plato forum.

[alkemical]

Duuuude! I think, therefore - like - i am! Whooa!

[Odysseus]

"Philosophy has never really based itself upon facts. some theories have been verified houndreds years later, but still philosophy is a factless science."

Philosophy is based on logic and empirical fact or to quoth the Ames who is, and was and yet to be...."Duuuuude!"

[alkemical]

lol

[Haroldthebarrel]

"Philosophy has never really based itself upon facts. some theories have been verified houndreds years later, but still philosophy is a factless science."

Philosophy is based on logic and empirical fact or to quoth the Ames who is, and was and yet to be...."Duuuuude!"

it isnt based upon empirical facts. Philosophy might borrow from other sciences, but when a scientist makes either quality or quantity research he does that as a sociologist, psychologist or whatever.

Read for instance "critique of pure reason", "symposium", "being and time", and more. You wont find any statistics, you wont find any interviews. In the foreword or the last part of the books you wont find a selection of works that the author bases himself upon.

I mean, of course Milgram and Kolborn(sp) spurred a lot of philosophical debate, but for instance Rawls didnt use those experiments to create his own experiment.

[alkemical]

with out imagination and philosophy - you wouldn't find the people to prove or disprove.

philosphy should be like a thesis or objective you set out to prove if true or untrue.

Unfortunatly you can find a way to prove or disprove anything it seems - so then you are right back to the beginning.

[Odysseus]

it isnt based upon empirical facts. Philosophy might borrow from other sciences, but when a scientist makes either quality or quantity research he does that as a sociologist, psychologist or whatever.

Read for instance "critique of pure reason", "symposium", "being and time", and more. You wont find any statistics, you wont find any interviews. In the foreword or the last part of the books you wont find a selection of works that the author bases himself upon.

I mean, of course Milgram and Kolborn(sp) spurred a lot of philosophical debate, but for instance Rawls didnt use those experiments to create his own experiment.

Empirical or a posteriori knowledge is propositional knowledge obtained by experience or sensorial information. It is contrasted with a priori knowledge, or knowledge that is gained through the apprehension of innate ideas, "intuition," "pure reason," or other non-experiential sources.

The natural and social sciences are usually considered a posteriori, literally "after the fact," disciplines. Mathematics and logic are usually considered a priori, "before the fact," disciplines.

For example, "all things fall down" would be an empirical proposition about gravity that many of us believe we know; therefore we would regard it as an example of empirical knowledge. It is "empirical" because we have generally observed that things fall down, so there is no reason to believe this will change. This example also shows the difficulty of formulating knowledge claims. Outside of the Earth's gravitational field, for example, things do not "fall down", as there is no "down".

The vast bulk of the empirical knowledge that ordinary people possess is gained via a mixture of direct experience and the testimony of others about what they have experienced—iterated in an interesting way that is studied in the field of social epistemology as well as other fields. More complicated and organized methods of gaining empirical knowledge are the methods of science—see scientific method—which result in perhaps the best examples of rigorously codified, scientific empirical knowledge, namely, physics.

David Hume considered all a posteriori knowledge to be a Matter of Fact, and never explicitly utilised the term.

Source: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Empirical+knowledge

1/ The limitation of philosophy will always be the philosopher.

2/ The limitation to all philosophy will always be those who would use the philosophers finding for the common good.

3/ God, or the concept of all knowing creator, will always be larger than any one of the created except he is manifest of God. (This is why the Christian's claim superiority as only Jesus was manifest of God AND died for our sins) Ironic an African carpenter would still remain in such hot dispute years later.

4/ Statistics can lie (Forests versus trees)

Consider for a moment we create computer technology to save time and yet we destroy daily in our ignorance that which we claim to perserve. Our new paperless workplaces are decimating entire rain forests. The only philosophy of our current age is political correctness, guns, and mandated ethics class.

A factless science? Where are your facts to prove it is factless DUUUUDE?

FYI: The irony of writing you this from "holy lands" where currently the crucible of war is upon us does not escape me. If I see palm leaves being thrown down when I enter the city I'm not sticking around!

[Odysseus]

Empirical Fact: Broncos rule dude!

[Odysseus]

Quotes by Ghandi:
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

You must be the change you want to see in the world.

I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.

I believe in equality for everyone, except reporters and photographers.

[Odysseus]

Voltaire:“Of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men”

Friedrich Nietzsche: “In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.” --and-- "The last Christian died on the cross."

Thomas Jefferson: “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”

C.S. Lewis started out as an athiest and became one of the most ardent Christians ever born. “I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”

[Bronco Billy]

Yul Brynner : "Man has made 32,600,000 laws. God made only ten, and yet there is no law among all these millions man has made that isn’t covered with the Divine ones you can count on the fingers of your hands."

[Haroldthebarrel]

Empirical or a posteriori knowledge is propositional knowledge obtained by experience or sensorial information. It is contrasted with a priori knowledge, or knowledge that is gained through the apprehension of innate ideas, "intuition," "pure reason," or other non-experiential sources.

The natural and social sciences are usually considered a posteriori, literally "after the fact," disciplines. Mathematics and logic are usually considered a priori, "before the fact," disciplines.

For example, "all things fall down" would be an empirical proposition about gravity that many of us believe we know; therefore we would regard it as an example of empirical knowledge. It is "empirical" because we have generally observed that things fall down, so there is no reason to believe this will change. This example also shows the difficulty of formulating knowledge claims. Outside of the Earth's gravitational field, for example, things do not "fall down", as there is no "down".

The vast bulk of the empirical knowledge that ordinary people possess is gained via a mixture of direct experience and the testimony of others about what they have experienced—iterated in an interesting way that is studied in the field of social epistemology as well as other fields. More complicated and organized methods of gaining empirical knowledge are the methods of science—see scientific method—which result in perhaps the best examples of rigorously codified, scientific empirical knowledge, namely, physics.

David Hume considered all a posteriori knowledge to be a Matter of Fact, and never explicitly utilised the term.

Source: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Empirical+knowledge

1/ The limitation of philosophy will always be the philosopher.

2/ The limitation to all philosophy will always be those who would use the philosophers finding for the common good.

3/ God, or the concept of all knowing creator, will always be larger than any one of the created except he is manifest of God. (This is why the Christian's claim superiority as only Jesus was manifest of God AND died for our sins) Ironic an African carpenter would still remain in such hot dispute years later.

4/ Statistics can lie (Forests versus trees)

Consider for a moment we create computer technology to save time and yet we destroy daily in our ignorance that which we claim to perserve. Our new paperless workplaces are decimating entire rain forests. The only philosophy of our current age is political correctness, guns, and mandated ethics class.

A factless science? Where are your facts to prove it is factless DUUUUDE?

FYI: The irony of writing you this from "holy lands" where currently the crucible of war is upon us does not escape me. If I see palm leaves being thrown down when I enter the city I'm not sticking around!

When i say philosophy is a factless science i tried to establish that by factless i mean non empirical. It can still be truth, but there wont be used any experiments to prove the point.
This is kinda nice when you study philosophy because you dont have to study all these experiments and results.

That does not mean philosophy can be scientific.
In fact there are two good examples. One is physics. Physics borrows a lot from epistemology in order to sustain its rigorous methods.
Secondly, we wouldnt be using computers today if it wasnt for Frege, Russel and Wittgenstein who developed logics. Or rather logical systems. p then q. p. q etc.
Out of that we got binaries which of course is very essential to computers.

"A factless science? Where are your facts to prove it is factless DUUUUDE? ".
LOL.... perhaps you were just lying now.

[Odysseus]

When i say philosophy is a factless science i tried to establish that by factless i mean non empirical. It can still be truth, but there wont be used any experiments to prove the point.
This is kinda nice when you study philosophy because you dont have to study all these experiments and results.

---Non empirical? Is that like sex with chic in a magazine whose name you don't know and body you never touched? What is that word I am looking for? Is Bob a well known Non empirical poster posting about thing he has zero knowledge about? Maybe Bob is totally correct in a galaxy there is no coordinates for? E.T. Go home?

---Eureka! I discovered Non empirical proof that God does not exist. I don't care therefore he ain't!

"A scientific theory, in order to be accepted as a part of theoretical scientific knowledge, must satisfy both empirical and non-empirical requirements, the latter having to do with simplicity, unity, explanatory character, symmetry, beauty. No satisfactory, generally accepted account of such non-empirical requirements has so far been given." http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001759/

That does not mean philosophy can be scientific.
In fact there are two good examples. One is physics. Physics borrows a lot from epistemology in order to sustain its rigorous methods.
Secondly, we wouldnt be using computers today if it wasnt for Frege, Russel and Wittgenstein who developed logics. Or rather logical systems. p then q. p. q etc.
Out of that we got binaries which of course is very essential to computers.

--Duuuuude. Are typos Freudian, Jungian, or Adlerian?

"A factless science? Where are your facts to prove it is factless DUUUUDE? ".
LOL.... perhaps you were just lying now.

---Perhaps I was joking? :spit:



Translation: Duuuuuuuude!

[Odysseus]

Imagination is more powerful than knowledge. - Albert Einstein

[Odysseus]

STEVE McCROSKEY (Lloyd Bridges): "Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue." AIRPLANE! Paramount, 1980

[Odysseus]

BRAne FUD iz GUD!

[Rock Chalk]

Why is that important?

Heck, if quantum mechanics is right, we might not even have free will at all... Just the illusion of it.

I dont think you understand quantum mechanics enough to be making statements like this. Explain, in detail how quantum mechanics which is the study of the quantum world (the very small) affects will which is an abstract idea of something intangible with no mass at all?

[alkemical]

I think my dreams actually dream me.