ok put it to a vote

[Spider]

lets see where people stand

[Rohirrim]

Both sides are nuts. Killing leads to killing, leads to killing, leads to... ad infinitum. Neither side is "right" as far as I'm concerned. They're both nuts. And they are both so filled with vengeance, self-righteousness, and nationalism, that neither side will ever stop killing the other side. I go for the John Lennon solution: "Imagine no religion."

[Spider]

Both sides are nuts. Killing leads to killing, leads to killing, leads to... ad infinitum. Neither side is "right" as far as I'm concerned. They're both nuts. And they are both so filled with vengeance, self-righteousness, and nationalism, that neither side will ever stop killing the other side. I go for the John Lennon solution: "Imagine no religion."
we almost agree , I go with the let them kill each other off option , the entire world has done everything they can to bring peace ...... Niether side wants it , so give them what they realy want , no interference from anyone , let em have at it .....

[alkemical]

I say we start MTV-ME and start piping it in - then in 10 years we start opening casino's.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Both sides are nuts. Killing leads to killing, leads to killing, leads to... ad infinitum. Neither side is "right" as far as I'm concerned. They're both nuts. And they are both so filled with vengeance, self-righteousness, and nationalism, that neither side will ever stop killing the other side. I go for the John Lennon solution: "Imagine no religion."

That's pretty close to my take on the whole mess.

I would just add that our lopsided support for Israel and our double standards with respect to UN resolutions and what constitutes acts of terrorism are just adding fuel to the fire and making us less safe.

[Rohirrim]

That's pretty close to my take on the whole mess.

I would just add that our lopsided support for Israel and our double standards with respect to UN resolutions and what constitutes acts of terrorism are just adding fuel to the fire and making us less safe.

I still believe that George Washington gave us the best advice: "Avoid foreign entanglements." Of course now, the U.S. government is nothing more than a service organization for its corporate bosses. Originally, the Founders envisioned the military as the defenders of the homeland, and little else. Now we go to war to protect corporate interests abroad, which we mask in the rhetoric of "our vital interests." An entirely different mission. I can't wait for my sons to grow up so they can die for Exxon Mobil. Does Exxon have its own flag? They should create something nice - to inspire the troops.

[alkemical]

Ro,

You don't mean we are sort of repo men for the WTO do ya?

[SactownOrangeSunday]

we almost agree , I go with the let them kill each other off option , the entire world has done everything they can to bring peace ...... Niether side wants it , so give them what they realy want , no interference from anyone , let em have at it .....

I think the US should sign peace treaties with everybody in the region and whoever gets attacked the US comes in on their side with everything we got, that might keep them from killing one another, but prob not.

[defenseman]

Both sides are nuts. Killing leads to killing, leads to killing, leads to... ad infinitum. Neither side is "right" as far as I'm concerned. They're both nuts. And they are both so filled with vengeance, self-righteousness, and nationalism, that neither side will ever stop killing the other side. I go for the John Lennon solution: "Imagine no religion."

Once the fighting is at an end. I feel very sorry for the critics of hezbollah residing in Lebanon. they won't be very healthy for very long, I can gaurantee you that. The terrorists will do their best to ignite a civil war right in lebanon, ensuring those who challenged their authority don't survive. UNLESS, israel takes them out....dman

[Rohirrim]

Once the fighting is at an end. I feel very sorry for the critics of hezbollah residing in Lebanon. they won't be very healthy for very long, I can gaurantee you that. The terrorists will do their best to ignite a civil war right in lebanon, ensuring those who challenged their authority don't survive. UNLESS, israel takes them out....dman

And at some point Israel will decide it's time to expand its borders to their "Biblical" proportions and start the whole thing all over again. Imagine this: You live on a piece of land that your family has lived on for five hundred years. The olive trees you tend are two hundred years old. The house you live in is the house of your father and five fathers before him. One day, the Israelis ride up on a bulldozer, level your house, level your olive trees, and move you and your family to a refugee camp. Why? Because God said that your land belongs to them.

There's two sides to this. I won't hazard a guess as to who is right. Many on this board don't even know that the Israelis in the 40s and 50s were setting off bombs in hotels and cars and killing Brits. You could say the Israelis taught the Arabs how to be terrorists. Frankly, I don't care about either side. Let them fight to the death, if that is their choice. I just want my country to get its nose out of the region, and keep it out.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I still believe that George Washington gave us the best advice: "Avoid foreign entanglements." Of course now, the U.S. government is nothing more than a service organization for its corporate bosses. Originally, the Founders envisioned the military as the defenders of the homeland, and little else. Now we go to war to protect corporate interests abroad, which we mask in the rhetoric of "our vital interests." An entirely different mission. I can't wait for my sons to grow up so they can die for Exxon Mobil. Does Exxon have its own flag? They should create something nice - to inspire the troops.

Hammer, nail, head. :thumbsup:

Frankly, I don't care about either side. Let them fight to the death, if that is their choice. I just want my country to get its nose out of the region, and keep it out.

That would be great.

Unfortunately, however, as we all know, this is unlikely to happen as long as the oil companies and weapons manufacturers who give politicians like Bush their marching orders have such lucrative interests in the region.

[broncocalijohn]

israel doesnt want to conquer other land unless provoked. Muslims extremist want them out. Last time i looked, there isnt a terrorist group from israel where there motto and well being is to rid the muslims out of all of the middle east.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

israel doesnt want to conquer other land unless provoked. Muslims extremist want them out. Last time i looked, there isnt a terrorist group from israel where there motto and well being is to rid the muslims out of all of the middle east.

:oyvey:

Sounds like somebody's been listening to just a little too much Oxycontin Boy.

Now for some facts:

(Courtesy of Mark.)

You mentioned the return of Sinai to Egypt in 1977. This was the separate peace that put the Palestinian issue on a side track. Many people warned at the time that this was not a smart idea -- and they were right. No sooner was the ink dry on the Camp David Accords with Egypt than Israel began to attack its northern neighbor Lebanon. The PLO recall was then based in southern Lebanon and around Beirut.

In other words, Israel secured its southern border with Egypt -- then immediatelly turned its sights to the destruction of the PLO in Lebanon.

In 1975 Arafat had persuaded the Palestinian National Council to support a two state settlement. And this was possible from then on -- if Israel had wanted a political settlement with the Palestinians. But they didn't. There was a major Israeli incursion into Lebanon in 1978 -- and more attacks back and forth until things eventually settled down.

Then in 1982 General Ariel Sharon, who opposed every peace treaty in Israel's history, took the IDF into Lebanon again. The border had been quiet for almost a year -- but that didn't stop Israel from attacking. Just like in this current war, which it's now clear Israel had planned for many months.. The captured soldiers were but a pretext.

In 1982 Sharon deceived then PM Menachem Begin and the entire Israeli cabinet about the full exent of his invasion that cost up to 20,000 dead Lebanese -- mostly civilians -- and basically destroyed the nation. Israel proceeded to occupy southern Lebanon for the next 18 years, until they finally withdrew in 2000. What you guys don't understand -- because you watch too much FOX news -- is that this was the crucible in which Hezbollah was born. It was a grass roots effort by local Lebanese, who happened to be Shiites, to drive the Israelis out of Lebanon and free the country. During its 18 year occupation Isarel failed to destroy Hezbollah. This explains their determination this time to finish the job. Israel's failure to destroy its adversary is considered a dangerous precedent in Israel, one that has to be set right. If you don't llike Hezbollah -- you can thank Israel because they brought Hezbollah into existence by invading and occupying Lebanon in 1982. Simple as that.

But destroying Hezbollah is not Israel's only present goal. During the last year Lebanon's sconomy showed signs of finally recovering from the 1982 war and years of civil strife -- and was prospering. But Israel can't allow this to happen. Israel's policy has always been to keep its neighbors weak - which makes Israel stronger. This is why Israel bombed not only Hezbollah strongholds, but also bridges, roads, industries, schools, Sunni mosques, electric plants, throughout the country. Of course Israel carefully avoided the Maronite areas, because this will make the Lebanese Christians relatively stronger vis a vis the Muslims, which will breed disunity, which has always been one of Israel's prime objectives.

And all of this because two men were captured on the northern border. This is not the policy of a civilized nation. Israel could end the Hezbollah rocket attacks tomorrow by agreeing to a cease fire. Hezbollah has indicated it would agree to a political settlement if the Palestininans agree to one. So that remains a possibility.

But Israel's leaders regard peace as an even bigger threat than rocket attacks. Why? Because Israel would then have to declare its final borders -- something Israel has always refused to do. Israel may be the only nation on the planet that's never declared its borders -- kind of weird -- but it serves the purposes of Zionism, which is an ever growing and expanding form of Colonialism. In fact the US offered Israel a security pledge way back in the 1950s in an attempt to forestall Israel's nuclear weapons program. The condition of that offer was that Israel declare its final borders --- Israel refused.

[errand]

Both sides are nuts. Killing leads to killing, leads to killing, leads to... ad infinitum. Neither side is "right" as far as I'm concerned. They're both nuts. And they are both so filled with vengeance, self-righteousness, and nationalism, that neither side will ever stop killing the other side. I go for the John Lennon solution: "Imagine no religion."


Israel has given into numerous cease fire agreements, and has abided by them under the belief that surrendering conquered land will bring peace....Hezbollah has not. So the issue isn't religion or land. It's about radical Muslims wanting to exterminate all the Jews world wide.

Israel is doing what the impotent UN has failed to do every time they are given the chance...enforce their resolutions.

[errand]

I would just add that our lopsided support for Israel and our double standards with respect to UN resolutions and what constitutes acts of terrorism are just adding fuel to the fire and making us less safe.

Boy, you just can't help yourself can you?


Blame America somehow, some way. Why am I not suprised?

[errand]

Now we go to war to protect corporate interests abroad, which we mask in the rhetoric of "our vital interests." An entirely different mission. I can't wait for my sons to grow up so they can die for Exxon Mobil. Does Exxon have its own flag? They should create something nice - to inspire the troops.

Well you libs have a problem then huh? We're not allowed to drill for our own oil, and reduce our dependency on foriegn sources because of your whacked environmental policies.....and now you're bitching if the US uses the military to keep those foriegn supply lines open?

Ask Spider how much money he'll make if there wasn't any fuel for his truck? Ask anyone how they can earn their salary if they cannot walk the 10-15 miles to work because there isn't any fuel?

Oil is what makes this great nation's economy go, for better or worse. Without it, you can shut the US down.

BTW, perhaps if we and Israel do what needs to be done today, then your sons won't have to die before their time.

[errand]

And at some point Israel will decide it's time to expand its borders to their "Biblical" proportions and start the whole thing all over again. Imagine this: You live on a piece of land that your family has lived on for five hundred years. The olive trees you tend are two hundred years old. The house you live in is the house of your father and five fathers before him. One day, the Israelis ride up on a bulldozer, level your house, level your olive trees, and move you and your family to a refugee camp. Why? Because God said that your land belongs to them.



...or imagine this scenario. A group of radicals hi-jacks a religion and sends small kids wearing explosives in a belt into a small cafe and sets it off.

Oh wait, you don't have to imagine it...it's already happening on a daily freaking basis.

[Spider]

Ask Spider how much money he'll make if there wasn't any fuel for his truck? Ask anyone how they can earn their salary if they cannot walk the 10-15 miles to work because there isn't any fuel?


why ask me I am on welfare remember ? ........ I am not going ot insult you , but you dont have a clue about Oil and whats going on .... not allowed to drill for oil ?
Perhaps some reading will help you ............
http://hsgac.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&Affiliation=r&PressRelease_id=1061&Month=7&Year=2005
a little facts go along ways in finding the truth

[Spider]

we have wells "Shut in "from Sydney Mt , to Fargo N.D. . we have acres and acres of No touch wells in Texas and Oklahoma ......... Southern Utah , full of oil but no drilling ......Utah is a red state ... nevermind , damn liberals are to blame somehow .......

[TailgateNut]

I think the US should sign peace treaties with everybody in the region and whoever gets attacked the US comes in on their side with everything we got, that might keep them from killing one another, but prob not.


??? You have got to be kidding!

[Spider]

Wamsutter field , they want to double its size , dam nthing already 50 miles long by 170+ miles wide , the Johnoah field near Pinedale is growing so fast , Wyoming is going out of state to recruit workers , the low sulpher coal is getting shipped out so much it isnt uncommen to see trains backed up waiting to load .......I dont know where this we are niot allowed to drill for oil myth came from , but it is clearly a myth .......

[alkemical]

I think there is some merit to abiotic oil and why can't we as americans sacrifice a bit to make the switch.

Ya know why - until there's serious money in it - it won't happe.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Boy, you just can't help yourself can you?


Blame America somehow, some way. Why am I not suprised?

You can't help yourself when it comes to turning a blind eye to the Middle East fallout America has created as a direct result of its lopsided support for Israel, can you?

That's why you feel compelled to spin observations of the facts as "blaming America."

Your problem (one of many) is that you want everything your government does to be OK (unless the Democrats happen to be in power, that is.)

Sorry - it just doesn't work that way.

[spdirty]

Both sides are nuts. Killing leads to killing, leads to killing, leads to... ad infinitum.
Getting blown up by suicide bombers after giving up more land leads to getting blown up by suicide bombers after giving up more land leads to getting blown up by suicide bombers after giving up more land leads to...yeah.

Neither side is "right" as far as I'm concerned. They're both nuts.
Fighting back after many civilians have been attacked as well as troops kidnapped for no reason and you aren't "right." interesting.

I go for the John Lennon solution: "Imagine no religion."
Or the Lenin solotion. Yeah that worked out well, didn't it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Getting blown up by suicide bombers after giving up more land leads to getting blown up by suicide bombers after giving up more land leads to getting blown up by suicide bombers after giving up more land leads to...yeah.


You have it bass-ackwards.

Israel keeps taking more land.

Israel still has not declared its official borders.

This violent, racist settler state is a magnet for ill-will not just among Arabs and Muslims, but throughout most of the world. This has nothing to do with Judaism… and everything to do with racial Apartheid and predatory expansionism.

[spdirty]

You have it bass-ackwards.

Israel keeps taking more land.

Israel still has not declared its official borders.

This violent, racist settler state is a magnet for ill-will not just among Arabs and Muslims, but throughout most of the world. This has nothing to do with Judaism… and everything to do with racial Apartheid and predatory expansionism.


Wow

[Spider]

I dont have a dog in this hunt , I still say let them kill each other all they want , screw those that dont like it , i am just chillin got my bull ring in , tunes over the jukebox , enjoying the week off , wife had a hystdraectomy , seeing how I played a small role in the triplets felt I needed to help out around here .......cant wait to get back on the road