Most Americans plan to vote for Democrats

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

By DONNA CASSATA, Associated Press Writer Fri Jul 14, 5:09 AM ET

WASHINGTON - Republicans are in jeopardy of losing their grip on Congress in November. With less than four months to the midterm elections, the latest Associated Press-Ipsos poll found that Americans by an almost 3-to-1 margin hold the GOP-controlled Congress in low regard and profess a desire to see Democrats wrest control after a dozen years of Republican rule.

Further complicating the GOP outlook to turn things around is a solid percentage of liberals, moderates and even conservatives who say they'll vote Democratic. The party out of power also holds the edge among persuadable voters, a prospect that doesn't bode well for the Republicans.

The election ultimately will be decided in 435 House districts and 33 Senate contests, in which incumbents typically hold the upper hand. But the survey underscored the difficulty Republicans face in trying to persuade a skeptical public to return them to Washington.

The AP-Ipsos poll of 1,000 adults conducted Monday through Wednesday found that
President Bush has stopped his political freefall, with his approval rating of 36 percent basically unchanged from last month. Bush received slightly higher marks for his handling of the
Iraq war and the fight against terrorism, weeks after his surprise trip to Baghdad and the killing of Iraqi terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in a U.S. airstrike last month.

But a Democratic takeover of either the House or Senate would be disastrous for the president, leaving both his agenda for the last two years in office and the chairmanship of investigative committees in the hands of the opposition party. To seize control of Congress, the Democrats must displace 15 Republicans from House seats and six Republicans from the Senate.

The AP-Ipsos survey asked 789 registered voters if the election for the House were held today, would they vote for the Democratic or Republican candidate in their district. Democrats were favored 51 percent to 40 percent.

Not surprisingly, 81 percent of self-described liberals said they would vote for the Democrat. Among moderates, though, 56 percent backed a Democrat in their district and almost a quarter of conservatives — 24 percent — said they will vote Democratic.

Democrats also held the advantage among persuadable voters — those who are undecided or wouldn't say whom they prefer. A total of 51 percent said they were leaning Democrat, while 41 percent were leaning Republican.

"We still have wind in our face. It's a midterm election in the president's second term," said Rep. Tom Reynolds, R-N.Y., chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee. "Today is a little bit better in the atmospherics of Washington than it was maybe a month ago."

The president's party historically has lost seats in the sixth year of his service. Franklin D. Roosevelt lost 72 House seats in 1938; Dwight D. Eisenhower 48 in 1958. The exception was
Bill Clinton in 1998.

By another comparison, polls in 1994 — when a Republican tidal wave swept Democrats from power — the two parties were in a dead heat in July on the question of whom voters preferred in their district.

"It comes down to a fairly simply question: Can Democrats nationalize all the elections? If Republicans prevent that, they have a shot. If they don't, they lose," said Doug Gross, the GOP gubernatorial candidate in Iowa in 2002 and the state finance director for the 2004 Bush-Cheney campaign.

Overall, only 27 percent approved of the way Congress is doing its job. Lawmakers get favorable marks from 36 percent of conservatives, 28 percent of moderates and 17 percent of liberals.

Some criticism of Congress has focused on lawmakers' inability to control spending, with lawmakers tucking in special projects for their home districts.

"They used to say there's nothing worse than a tax-and-spend liberal Democrat," said Gary Wilson, 51, a self-described liberal from Gaithersburg, Md. "There is something worse: It's a borrow-and-spend Republican. This is going to come back to haunt us."

One bright spot for the GOP is that Republicans hold an advantage over Democrats on issues such as foreign policy and fighting terrorism — 43 percent to 33 percent — and a smaller edge on handling Iraq — 36 percent to 32 percent.

The AP-Ipsos poll was conducted after the divisive Democratic debate in the Senate over setting a timetable for withdrawing U.S. forces from Iraq. Potential voters were paying attention to the GOP complaint that Democrats want to "cut and run."

"It seems like the Democrats want to pull out or start to pull out, and I don't think that's the correct thing to do," said Eric Bean, 24, a college minister in Fort Worth, Texas. "I'd much rather see a Congress that would support our president. I think
George Bush is doing the best he can. I think Republicans will support him."

John Dendahl, the Republican candidate for governor in New Mexico, said Democrats, with the help of some Republicans, have been successful at obstructing legislation in Congress while heaping the blame on the GOP.

Tom Courtney, a Democratic state senator in Iowa, said U.S. voters are ready to trust his party to lead.

"I honestly think it's ours to lose," Courtney said. "My experience, we're not above that. Americans are ready for change."

The poll of adults had a margin of error of 3 percentage points and the survey of registered voters had a margin of error of 3.5 percentage points.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_go_co/republicans_ap_poll

[defenseman]

AP-Ipsos. How reliable in terms of "polls" anyway are they. Spun left , right or in the middle? Honestly, don't have a feel for the ipsos folks. Then again, don't put a whole lot in polls, but, an interesting read nonetheless..dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

"They used to say there's nothing worse than a tax-and-spend liberal Democrat," said Gary Wilson, 51, a self-described liberal from Gaithersburg, Md. "There is something worse: It's a borrow-and-spend Republican.

No kidding!!!!

[Rohirrim]

Diebold isn't worried. ;D

[Traveler]

As much as I'd love for this to happen, my pessimistic side won't allow me to buy into this just yet. Especially after the results of 2004.

Too much can happen between now and the election.

And as Rohirrim says, Diebold isn't worried!

[defenseman]

And to be honest, if americans think voting a different "party" in , just because they are a different "party", without looking at the candidate?. Not only is that plain stupidity but is an indicator of how lazy americans have become. they are delusional if that will "ensure" things will improve the way they want it to. No different than playing russian roulet. Really sad is what the whole thing comes down to..dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And to be honest, if americans think voting a different "party" in , just because they are a different "party", without looking at the candidate?. Not only is that plain stupidity but is an indicator of how lazy americans have become. they are delusional if that will "ensure" things will improve the way they want it to. No different than playing russian roulet. Really sad is what the whole thing comes down to..dman
No, it's a reflection of what people consider having enough of after 12 years of same party rule (6 years of uncontrolled spending).

[Rohirrim]

No, it's a reflection of what people consider having enough of after 12 years of same party rule (6 years of uncontrolled spending).

I'm still waiting to see if Bush can make it through both terms w/o a single veto. :wiggle:

[defenseman]

No, it's a reflection of what people consider having enough of after 12 years of same party rule (6 years of uncontrolled spending).

Same reason america turned the presidency over to the REPUBS after WJC? Whatever. Oh wait, I forgot, it was 'stolen' , yep that's the ticket..dman

Sure, whatever you say.

[Spider]

Same reason america turned the presidency over to the REPUBS after WJC? Whatever. Oh wait, I forgot, it was 'stolen' , yep that's the ticket..dman

Sure, whatever you say.
now you are starting to understand , Gore did win the popular vote , and he won the Fla recount , what Gore didnt win was the SCOTUS vote .......

[Rohirrim]

now you are starting to understand , Gore did win the popular vote , and he won the Fla recount , what Gore didnt win was the SCOTUS vote .......

Scalia, at some little gathering where he gave a speech last year told the Rightie audience that the day he killed the Florida debate and made Dubya president was one of the happiest days of his life. He got a big cheer for that one. ROFL!

[Spider]

Scalia, at some little gathering where he gave a speech last year told the Rightie audience that the day he killed the Florida debate and made Dubya president was one of the happiest days of his life. He got a big cheer for that one. ROFL!
;D ....... Shhh . we dont need things like that entering the debate , the right doesnt have a strong enough case as it is now , you pull that and it just makes it harder on the right

[Garcia Bronco]

And to be honest, if americans think voting a different "party" in , just because they are a different "party", without looking at the candidate?. Not only is that plain stupidity but is an indicator of how lazy americans have become. they are delusional if that will "ensure" things will improve the way they want it to. No different than playing russian roulet. Really sad is what the whole thing comes down to..dman


Think about the dumbest person you know....now realize they and people like them participate in these "objective polls".

[Garcia Bronco]

now you are starting to understand , Gore did win the popular vote , and he won the Fla recount , what Gore didnt win was the SCOTUS vote .......

Gore did not win Florida...remember he was the one with all the incomplete votes...not the President. The only way investigators could reproduce the hanging chad issue was to stick a stack of ballots into the device and try to punch them.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Gore did not win Florida...remember he was the one with all the incomplete votes...not the President. The only way investigators could reproduce the hanging chad issue was to stick a stack of ballots into the device and try to punch them.
A complete recount would have gave him the win. Instead, 5 SC judges appointed Bush.

Justice Stevens wrote: "Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the nation's confidence in [this Court] as the impartial guardian of the rule of law."
http://tinyurl.com/j4eam

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No, it's a reflection of what people consider having enough of after 12 years of same party rule (6 years of uncontrolled spending).

Bingo.

Thanks for explaining this to him. :D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

As much as I'd love for this to happen, my pessimistic side won't allow me to buy into this just yet. Especially after the results of 2004.

Too much can happen between now and the election.

And as Rohirrim says, Diebold isn't worried!

Exactly.

And let's not overlook the possibility of some sort of October surprise, e.g., a new, strategically-timed videotape from Osama, or some sort of "terrorist" attack.

[Spider]

Gore did not win Florida...remember he was the one with all the incomplete votes...not the President. The only way investigators could reproduce the hanging chad issue was to stick a stack of ballots into the device and try to punch them.
sure Gore did ..... anyone that thinks different believes Dan Wilbaum from Morenci Ari. Saw and had dinner with Big foot ........

[Garcia Bronco]

A complete recount would have gave him the win. Instead, 5 SC judges appointed Bush.


http://tinyurl.com/j4eam


A complete recount of forged votes...forged...fake..that's what it would have been and that's why the court put a stop to it. And they did the right thing.

[Garcia Bronco]

sure Gore did ..... anyone that thinks different believes Dan Wilbaum from Morenci Ari. Saw and had dinner with Big foot ........

I hit golf balls with big foot all the time

[Spider]

I hit golf balls with big foot all the time
you play Golf with my wife ?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

A complete recount of forged votes...forged...fake..that's what it would have been and that's why the court put a stop to it. And they did the right thing.

Recount proved Gore won under all scenarios

"In the review of all the state's disputed ballots, Gore edged ahead under all six scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide"

- Associated Press

It's time to refresh everyone's memory of the NORC recount of the Florida 2000 vote. This recount, the only one ever completed, proved a Gore victory under all scenarios for a state-wide recount.

Note that under this recount Gore won even if you include Republican fraud such as the late absentee votes (which were only accepted in Republican counties), the thousands of votes lost to illegal disenfranchisement when people were falsely accused of being felons, and the curious "Jews for Buchanan" phenomenon with the butterfly ballot. If you count the votes, Gore won. If you don't count the votes, Bush won. It's that simple.

What does this mean? It means Gore won both the electoral college and the popular vote. It means the man currently in the oval office is a not a legitimate president. It means democracy was defeated in the year 2000. It means Americans are now living under a coup. Never lose sight of these facts.

Here follows the results in full of the NORC recount. Six different standards for hanging chads and such were considered. All six scenarios resulted in a Gore victory.

-PREVAILING STANDARD: County election officials told Florida journalists how they would define votes if required to do a recount and in this scenario the majority standard was imposed statewide. In punch-card counties, ballots with at least one corner of a chad detached counted as votes. In optical scan counties, where voters are required to fill in blanks on a paper ballot -- like on a standardized test -- ballots with any affirmative marks counted. That means a vote counted even if the oval was not completely filled in or a candidate's name was circled or underlined; so did ballots on which a voter correctly filled in the oval and also wrote the same candidate's name in the space for write-ins.

Result: Gore ahead by 60 votes.

-TWO-CORNER STANDARD: At least two corners of a chad must be detached to count as a vote, a position that had been argued, at times, by Bush supporters. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 105 votes.

-MOST INCLUSIVE: Ballots with dimpled chads count as votes, an argument often made by Gore supporters. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 107 votes.

-LEAST INCLUSIVE: Only cleanly punched chads count as valid votes. For optical scan, only fully filled ovals and those ballots on which a voter filled in the oval and wrote in the candidate's name, too.

Result: Gore ahead by 115 votes.

-COUNTY-by-COUNTY: Drawn from the county election officials. It accepts results from Broward and Volusia counties because those counties completed hand counts that were included in state-certified election totals. For those counties that said they would not count overvotes, relies on prevailing standard.

Result: Gore ahead by 171 votes.

-PALM BEACH STANDARD: Based on a standard Palm Beach election officials briefly used, this counts dimpled chads as valid votes if a pattern of dimpled chads exists elsewhere on the same ballot. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 42 votes.

Media reaction

A close examination of the ballots suggests that more Floridians attempted to choose Gore over Bush. -- Chicago Tribune

Gore would have won most recount scenarios that included "overvotes," ballots that showed votes for more than one candidate. Democrats long have contended that a plurality of Florida voters intended to cast their ballots for Gore but that thousands spoiled their votes because of confusing instructions, badly designed ballots or other obstacles. The study adds evidence to bolster that case. -- LA Times

One of the most compelling questions since the election has been: Who would have won if all the uncounted ballots were hand-counted using the same standards? If that had happened using the counting methods most widely used in the state, the
study shows, Bush would have gotten an extra 3,607 votes, Gore an extra 4,204 -- giving Gore the state by a scant 60-vote margin. -- Orlando Sentinel

But if Gore had found a way to trigger a statewide recount of all disputed ballots,
or if the courts had required it, the result likely would have been different. An examination of uncounted ballots throughout Florida found enough where voter intent was clear to give Gore the narrowest of margins. -- Washington Post

Translation from Washington Post whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

The consortium looked at what might have happened if a statewide recount had included these overvotes as well and found that Gore would have had a margin of fewer than 200 votes -- CNN

Translation from CNN whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

The findings indicate that Mr. Gore might have eked out a victory if he had pursued in court a course like the one he publicly advocated when he called on the state to "count all the votes." -- NY Times

Translation from NY Times whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

A vote-by-vote review of untallied ballots in the 2000 Florida presidential election commissioned by the nation's main media outlets shows Al Gore edged ahead of George W. Bush "under all the scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide," the Drudge Report has learned. -- Matt Drudge

Don't ever let anyone tell you to "get over" this, folks. You don't get over the subversion of democracy in the most powerful nation on the planet. You don't get over an illegal coup. Don't let the Republicans get away with the most monumental theft in history. You owe a debt to your ancestors as well as your children to ensure that this crime is never forgotten.

[Garcia Bronco]

you play Golf with my wife ?

Peggy Hill?

[Spider]

Peggy Hill?
close Peg Bundy ;D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

AP-Ipsos. How reliable in terms of "polls" anyway are they. Spun left , right or in the middle? Honestly, don't have a feel for the ipsos folks. Then again, don't put a whole lot in polls, but, an interesting read nonetheless..dman

:rofl:

News flash:

You can pick any poll you like and it will tell you the same thing.

[Garcia Bronco]

Recount proved Gore won under all scenarios

"In the review of all the state's disputed ballots, Gore edged ahead under all six scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide"

- Associated Press

It's time to refresh everyone's memory of the NORC recount of the Florida 2000 vote. This recount, the only one ever completed, proved a Gore victory under all scenarios for a state-wide recount.

Note that under this recount Gore won even if you include Republican fraud such as the late absentee votes (which were only accepted in Republican counties), the thousands of votes lost to illegal disenfranchisement when people were falsely accused of being felons, and the curious "Jews for Buchanan" phenomenon with the butterfly ballot. If you count the votes, Gore won. If you don't count the votes, Bush won. It's that simple.

What does this mean? It means Gore won both the electoral college and the popular vote. It means the man currently in the oval office is a not a legitimate president. It means democracy was defeated in the year 2000. It means Americans are now living under a coup. Never lose sight of these facts.

Here follows the results in full of the NORC recount. Six different standards for hanging chads and such were considered. All six scenarios resulted in a Gore victory.

-PREVAILING STANDARD: County election officials told Florida journalists how they would define votes if required to do a recount and in this scenario the majority standard was imposed statewide. In punch-card counties, ballots with at least one corner of a chad detached counted as votes. In optical scan counties, where voters are required to fill in blanks on a paper ballot -- like on a standardized test -- ballots with any affirmative marks counted. That means a vote counted even if the oval was not completely filled in or a candidate's name was circled or underlined; so did ballots on which a voter correctly filled in the oval and also wrote the same candidate's name in the space for write-ins.

Result: Gore ahead by 60 votes.

-TWO-CORNER STANDARD: At least two corners of a chad must be detached to count as a vote, a position that had been argued, at times, by Bush supporters. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 105 votes.

-MOST INCLUSIVE: Ballots with dimpled chads count as votes, an argument often made by Gore supporters. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 107 votes.

-LEAST INCLUSIVE: Only cleanly punched chads count as valid votes. For optical scan, only fully filled ovals and those ballots on which a voter filled in the oval and wrote in the candidate's name, too.

Result: Gore ahead by 115 votes.

-COUNTY-by-COUNTY: Drawn from the county election officials. It accepts results from Broward and Volusia counties because those counties completed hand counts that were included in state-certified election totals. For those counties that said they would not count overvotes, relies on prevailing standard.

Result: Gore ahead by 171 votes.

-PALM BEACH STANDARD: Based on a standard Palm Beach election officials briefly used, this counts dimpled chads as valid votes if a pattern of dimpled chads exists elsewhere on the same ballot. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 42 votes.

Media reaction

A close examination of the ballots suggests that more Floridians attempted to choose Gore over Bush. -- Chicago Tribune

Gore would have won most recount scenarios that included "overvotes," ballots that showed votes for more than one candidate. Democrats long have contended that a plurality of Florida voters intended to cast their ballots for Gore but that thousands spoiled their votes because of confusing instructions, badly designed ballots or other obstacles. The study adds evidence to bolster that case. -- LA Times

One of the most compelling questions since the election has been: Who would have won if all the uncounted ballots were hand-counted using the same standards? If that had happened using the counting methods most widely used in the state, the
study shows, Bush would have gotten an extra 3,607 votes, Gore an extra 4,204 -- giving Gore the state by a scant 60-vote margin. -- Orlando Sentinel

But if Gore had found a way to trigger a statewide recount of all disputed ballots,
or if the courts had required it, the result likely would have been different. An examination of uncounted ballots throughout Florida found enough where voter intent was clear to give Gore the narrowest of margins. -- Washington Post

Translation from Washington Post whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

The consortium looked at what might have happened if a statewide recount had included these overvotes as well and found that Gore would have had a margin of fewer than 200 votes -- CNN

Translation from CNN whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

The findings indicate that Mr. Gore might have eked out a victory if he had pursued in court a course like the one he publicly advocated when he called on the state to "count all the votes." -- NY Times

Translation from NY Times whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

A vote-by-vote review of untallied ballots in the 2000 Florida presidential election commissioned by the nation's main media outlets shows Al Gore edged ahead of George W. Bush "under all the scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide," the Drudge Report has learned. -- Matt Drudge

Don't ever let anyone tell you to "get over" this, folks. You don't get over the subversion of democracy in the most powerful nation on the planet. You don't get over an illegal coup. Don't let the Republicans get away with the most monumental theft in history. You owe a debt to your ancestors as well as your children to ensure that this crime is never forgotten.

And all those incomplete punched chads were fake votes...fraud...the article is basing it's opinion on fake votes. I already told you the only way they could reproduce the problem is by trying to punch a stack of ballots. The only way a stack of ballots is punched is by cheating. It's speculated as well that this is why PAt got so many votes as well.

[Garcia Bronco]

close Peg Bundy ;D


LOL

The driver I use, the one I can't hit with is called The SasQuatch

[Spider]

LOL

The driver I use, the one I can't hit with is called The SasQuatch
The Driver my wife uses has split my head open more then once ;D

[Garcia Bronco]

On to the topic...It doesn't work that way...No one is going into the booth thinking I'm going to vote Democrats for congress....I vote for one person...not a group. I can't control what the other districts are doing and the guy that's best for my district will get the votes. Usually in Virginia...that's a republican

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And all those incomplete punched chads were fake votes...fraud...the article is basing it's opinion on fake votes.

Not according to the prevailing standards for counting votes.

The article clearly proves you wrong on that account.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

...I vote for one person...not a group. I can't control what the other districts are doing and the guy that's best for my district will get the votes.

You're assuming that the poll methodology doesn't take this into account.


Usually in Virginia...that's a republican

With emphasis on "usually." Not so in recent times, if I recall.

[Garcia Bronco]

Not according to the prevailing standards for counting votes.

The article clearly proves you wrong on that account.


All I can tell you is ...it's not a pervasive problem...it has only really occurred in Florida during the 2000 election. Why? The only way they could reproduce the problem on such a scale was to punch stacks of ballots.

Once the state was in question all bets were off...and then the real cheating began...and why not? If I'm the DNC or the RNC...and one state is the difference between winning and losing by a slim margin...I'm cheating because I know the other is doing it too. Bush won the election, but had Gore been called the winner...the crime would still be the same.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

A complete recount of forged votes...forged...fake..that's what it would have been and that's why the court put a stop to it. And they did the right thing.

BS!

“As a more fundamental matter,” Stevens
wrote, “the Florida court's ruling reflects the basic principle, inherentin our Constitution and our democracy, that every legal vote should be counted.”
http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.counselpress.com/pdfs/cp_brief_presidential_election.pdf

[cbs1177]

I look at the individuals not so much party line I will not vote Democrats from national to local elections b/c of the past eight years. We get fun stuff to vote for like levee access, public access to mississippi river, and deicision based slots machine at the local dog track.

[Garcia Bronco]

You're assuming that the poll methodology doesn't take this into account.



With emphasis on "usually." Not so in recent times, if I recall.


If you're talking about Kaine

I've told you before..in Virginia...and this is strange...if there is a republican President we have a democrat gov and vice versa. Kaine is a decent choice...Kilgore wasn't the guy.

[Garcia Bronco]

BS!


http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.counselpress.com/pdfs/cp_brief_presidential_election.pdf

Well...stacked punch ballots would not be legal.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

All I can tell you is ...it's not a pervasive problem...it has only really occurred in Florida during the 2000 election. Why? The only way they could reproduce the problem on such a scale was to punch stacks of ballots.

Once the state was in question all bets were off...and then the real cheating began...and why not? If I'm the DNC or the RNC...and one state is the difference between winning and losing by a slim margin...I'm cheating because I know the other is doing it too. Bush won the election, but had Gore been called the winner...the crime would still be the same.

Even if you take all the disputed ballots out of the equation, the 50,000+ votes Gore lost due to the Harris/ChoicePoint purge were enough to hand the election to the pretender.

[Garcia Bronco]

Provisonal ballots...these shouldn't even be allowed...if you can't vote in your correct district that you're registered in...you shouldn't expect to have your vote count.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And all those incomplete punched chads were fake votes...fraud...the article is basing it's opinion on fake votes. I already told you the only way they could reproduce the problem is by trying to punch a stack of ballots. The only way a stack of ballots is punched is by cheating. It's speculated as well that this is why PAt got so many votes as well.

It looks like you overlooked this detail:

LEAST INCLUSIVE: Only cleanly punched chads count as valid votes. For optical scan, only fully filled ovals and those ballots on which a voter filled in the oval and wrote in the candidate's name, too.

Result: Gore ahead by 115 votes.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Provisonal ballots...these shouldn't even be allowed...if you can't vote in your correct district that you're registered in...you shouldn't expect to have your vote count.

What does this have to do with the ChoicePoint purge? ???

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Hypocritical bluster from the party devoid of any moral authority

Mock disdain and feigned outrage; that is all the Republican Party has left to offer the American people these days. Faced with the prospect of humiliating defeats across the country this November, the GOP has decided the best way to win the public trust is to practice ridiculous hypocrisy.

Their recent faux indignation is over a video produced by the Democratic House campaign committee claiming "Things Have Taken a Turn for the Worse" that features images of soldiers' coffins, a makeshift grave in Iraq and the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. First let us deal with reality. It is only in the secret GOP meetings do people in this country not seriously believe that things have indeed taken a turn for the worse. The coffins are representative of the sacrifices our kids have made for what has turned out to be a war based on lies. The coffins are real. The sacrifice is real. The blood that has been spilt for the lies of this administration is very, very real.

The debacle in Iraq is a resonating issue with America at this time with over 65% saying the war was a mistake and the troops should come home. Hurricane Katrina is the perfect microcosm of the ineptitude and haughty attitude that is embodied in the GOP. Not only was the preparation abysmal but the aftermath was atrocious as our president stayed on vacation for three days while people drowned. When it was discovered that the head of FEMA was a political hack appointment that lied throughout his resume, it only further cemented the image of incompetence that the American people now view the GOP as. Perhaps the greatest outrage though is that now a year later, this administration and the GOP has done little to nothing to help the people devastated by Katrina.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_anthony__060713_hypocritical_bluster.htm

[Garcia Bronco]

It looks like you overlooked this detail:


If that were actually the case then Gore would have won in the first count, but he didn't.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If that were actually the case then Gore would have won in the first count, but he didn't.

Because the SCOTUS prevented a full count from taking place.

Bottom line: All the votes were eventually counted, and, even according to the least inclusive standard, Gore won.

[Garcia Bronco]

Because the SCOTUS prevented a full count from taking place.

Bottom line: All the votes were eventually counted, and, even according to the least inclusive standard, Gore won.

They had a full count several times under the watchful eye of the RNC and DNC in the same room. It was on point. It was getting out of hand while the nation waited for it's new leader in the oval office. The court did the right thing. I voted for Gore because he had an environmental policy, I was pissed he didn't win...but in the end...I was out voted.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Lance deHaven-Smith is a professor in the Askew School of Public Administration and Policy at Florida State University. He has long been deeply immersed in the politics of Florida, and has just published a book through University Press of Florida entitled "The Battle for Florida:An Annotated Compendium Of Materials From The 2000 Presidential Election."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0813028191/qid=1136690882/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-8567651-5683047?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

Thank you for your interest in my research on the 2000 election and the interview in the FSU research magazine. Before going into some of the technical details, let me answer your question directly. Commenters are correct that a good portion of the “write-in overvotes” were truly spoiled ballots, so Gore’s margin of victory would not be as large as you have estimated. If all of the votes had been counted in Florida, Gore would definitely have won, but his margin of victory would probably have been less than 10,000 votes and could have been as low as 100-200, depending on the criteria used in deciding how to count ballots with various types of ambiguities, e.g., those with partially punched chads, write-ins, etc.

A number of studies have been conducted of the “spoiled ballots” in Florida. The most thorough was by the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago. It examined all of the 175,010 spoiled ballots that were excluded from the vote tabulations in Florida in 2000. Ballots were examined by multiple coders to assure reliability, and a dataset (available on NORC’s website) was constructed that included each coder’s judgment on each ballot. NORC also provided a program for applying different criteria and calculating the results. If the most restrictive criteria are used, Gore’s margin of victory is 158 votes. By “most restrictive,” I mean ballots are counted only if the voter’s intention is totally unambiguous (no partially punched chads, no unclear write-ins, etc.).

Please note that this estimate of Gore’s margin is very conservative. It only counts ballots that are totally unambiguous. Also, it deals only with votes as they were actually cast – it does not address the votes lost by Gore because of the butterfly ballot in Palm Beach County or the faulty ballot instructions in Duval and Gadsden Counties. Nor does it take into account the effects of Florida’s flawed program of felon disenfranchisement, which excluded many eligible voters from casting ballots and also created delays and confusion at polling places. During the election controversy, most observers acknowledged that more voters had gone to the polls to vote for Gore than for Bush, but it was unclear whether Gore had actually received more legally valid votes. We now know that he did.

Today, this would be widely recognized if NORC had published a report on its findings, but instead it chose simply to release the data and let everyone make sense of it on their own. My assumption is that NORC and the research sponsors did not issue a report because they did not want to embarrass President Bush. The study was concluded just after 9-11-01.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

They had a full count several times under the watchful eye of the RNC and DNC in the same room.

These were not full counts.

What do you think the SCOTUS stepped in to stop?

[Hotrod]

Im on dial up but if "most Americans" vote dem just because then were screwed. Lets all grow a brain you included LABF ;D and vote for the person based on the person and not party affiliation period.

Im sick of dem and repub lets start looking for the right man for the job...

[cbs1177]

i had as many last post as la bronco fan during the wrp board melt down. It was surreal to say the least.

[Garcia Bronco]

Im on dial up but if "most Americans" vote dem just because then were screwed. Lets all grow a brain you included LABF ;D and vote for the person based on the person and not party affiliation period.

Im sick of dem and repub lets start looking for the right man for the job...


One day I'll run for President...and yall better vote for me too...I don't care which team wins the Super Bowl...I'm inviting the Broncos to the WH

[Hotrod]

Im on dial up but if most Americans plan to vote Dem then were screwed. How about looking/researching whos the right man for the job. Im sick of Dem vs. Repub how about we start looking right man instead???

[Garcia Bronco]

These were not full counts.

What do you think the SCOTUS stepped in to stop?


They were all counted to begin with

[Hotrod]

Stupid dial up Im confused.

Garcia gets my vote I'll say that much ;D

[cbs1177]

One day I'll run for President...and yall better vote for me too...I don't care which team wins the Super Bowl...I'm inviting the Broncos to the WH

i will be honored to be in your cabinet. My major is economics please include me in your cabinet. How high sir?

[Hotrod]

i will be honored to be in your cabinet. My major is economics please include me in your cabinet. How high sir?

You can have some crappy job like VP I'm more qualified for economics. I've got 5 bucks and a dream oh and I've also already donated 5 bucks to the Garcia campain fund. ;D

[Garcia Bronco]

My administration will be all about my veto...I will veto almost every law with pork in it. One line item of pork will get the veto. I will only be in office one term. I will urge congress for the line item veto and term limits. My salary will be reduced to 1 dollar.. I will have the tax code scrapped. The environment will be a main concern, unfortunately at the expense of business. I will secretly have NASA work on off planet mining and fuel resourves so we can leave this planet the F alone. Say goodbye to the internal combustion engine....do I need to go on?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

They were all counted to begin with

http://www.ohanaed.com/images/4533.gif

Thank you for your interest in my research on the 2000 election and the interview in the FSU research magazine. Before going into some of the technical details, let me answer your question directly. Commenters are correct that a good portion of the “write-in overvotes” were truly spoiled ballots, so Gore’s margin of victory would not be as large as you have estimated. If all of the votes had been counted in Florida, Gore would definitely have won, but his margin of victory would probably have been less than 10,000 votes and could have been as low as 100-200, depending on the criteria used in deciding how to count ballots with various types of ambiguities, e.g., those with partially punched chads, write-ins, etc.

A number of studies have been conducted of the “spoiled ballots” in Florida. The most thorough was by the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago. It examined all of the 175,010 spoiled ballots that were excluded from the vote tabulations in Florida in 2000. Ballots were examined by multiple coders to assure reliability, and a dataset (available on NORC’s website) was constructed that included each coder’s judgment on each ballot. NORC also provided a program for applying different criteria and calculating the results. If the most restrictive criteria are used, Gore’s margin of victory is 158 votes. By “most restrictive,” I mean ballots are counted only if the voter’s intention is totally unambiguous (no partially punched chads, no unclear write-ins, etc.).

Please note that this estimate of Gore’s margin is very conservative. It only counts ballots that are totally unambiguous. Also, it deals only with votes as they were actually cast – it does not address the votes lost by Gore because of the butterfly ballot in Palm Beach County or the faulty ballot instructions in Duval and Gadsden Counties. Nor does it take into account the effects of Florida’s flawed program of felon disenfranchisement, which excluded many eligible voters from casting ballots and also created delays and confusion at polling places. During the election controversy, most observers acknowledged that more voters had gone to the polls to vote for Gore than for Bush, but it was unclear whether Gore had actually received more legally valid votes. We now know that he did.

Today, this would be widely recognized if NORC had published a report on its findings, but instead it chose simply to release the data and let everyone make sense of it on their own. My assumption is that NORC and the research sponsors did not issue a report because they did not want to embarrass President Bush. The study was concluded just after 9-11-01.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/stop-madness.jpg

[cbs1177]

You can have some crappy job like VP I'm more qualified for economics. I've got 5 bucks and a dream oh and I've also already donated 5 bucks to the Garcia campain fund. ;D

Sweet they said TR and I am only one heart beat away from Presidency. I will donated 5.01 funds to Garcia. Plus no candiate has ever won with out the vote of the south. I have southern blood I am southern thru and thru. So I am electoral better then you hotrod. the south matters. Plus I have clinton linage

[Garcia Bronco]

http://www.ohanaed.com/images/4533.gif

They were counted as the polls closed...it was already done...like I said once Florida became the pivot point for the win and the lawyers were in play....all bets were off.

[Garcia Bronco]

I'm also southern with a northern attitude.

[Hotrod]

My administration will be all about my veto...I will veto almost every law with pork in it. One line item of pork will get the veto. I will only be in office one term. I will urge congress for the line item veto and term limits. My salary will be reduced to 1 dollar.. I will have the tax code scrapped. The environment will be a main concern, unfortunately at the expense of business. I will secretly have NASA work on off planet mining and fuel resourves so we can leave this planet the F alone. Say goodbye to the internal combustion engine....do I need to go on?

Im pretty much with you but the whole tree hugger thing is worrysome to me. Id like to finish off the planet....like they say a job half done is worthless......;)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

They were counted as the polls closed...

Wrong.

If all the votes had been counted, then it would have been clear that Gore won:

If the most restrictive criteria are used, Gore’s margin of victory is 158 votes. By “most restrictive,” I mean ballots are counted only if the voter’s intention is totally unambiguous (no partially punched chads, no unclear write-ins, etc.).

But even if we don't include any considerations of disputed ballots in the discussion, the 50,000+ votes Gore lost in the Harris/ChoicePoint purge were more than enough to hand the chimp the election, so your point is really moot.

[cbs1177]

I'm also southern with a northern attitude.

With my southern drawl the south is wraped up for you no democratic has ever won with out at least one southern state. Also no republican has won with out Ohio. I can campaign in the south and Ohio I don't know which side you swing but I am your man. I cover all basis. Down to earth in the south and Ohio I can study. O hi oh. Choose me. I am exstenisve knowledge in southern culture and also have a huge fan base both independents and from both sides of the established parties.

[Garcia Bronco]

Im pretty much with you but the whole tree hugger thing is worrysome to me. Id like to finish off the planet....like they say a job half done is worthless......;)


Yeah...it's okay to hug a tree...that doesn't mean you have to sleep with it too

[Hotrod]

Wrong.

If all the votes had been counted, then it would have been clear that Gore won:



But even if we don't include any considerations of disputed ballots in the discussion, the 50,000+ votes Gore lost in the Harris/ChoicePoint purge were more than enough to hand the chimp the election, so your point is really moot.


You do realise your efforts would be better focused on 08 then 00 right??? I admire your persistance and what not but I hate to see you waste so much time living in the past. You could (if I like it or not) really do a service to your beliefs and party focusing your MASSIVE efforts on the future.


just saying ;D

[cbs1177]

Gracia has an alternate fuel for America and I am fighting for him all the way. I jumped on your bandwagon first man. I can send a resume of my qualifications if need be.

[Hotrod]

Give it up dude I have naked pics of Garcia and "A" well thats my secreat the media will eat this up he needs me Ha!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You do realise your efforts would be better focused on 08 then 00 right??? I admire your persistance and what not but I hate to see you waste so much time living in the past. You could (if I like it or not) really do a service to your beliefs and party focusing your MASSIVE efforts on the future.


just saying ;D

I do realize that you and your Bush-defending buddies would like nothing more than to sweep the evidence re: the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004 under the rug and to end the discussion once and for all.

That way, America is all the more likely to be blind-sided when your party does it again in '06 and '08.

[Garcia Bronco]

When they ask if I have ever smoke pot...I'm going to tell the truth..

[Garcia Bronco]

Gracia has an alternate fuel for America and I am fighting for him all the way. I jumped on your bandwagon first man. I can send a resume of my qualifications if need be.


I don't know if farting in the tank is technically a feul....;D

[cbs1177]

Give it up dude I have naked pics of Garcia and "A" well thats my secreat the media will eat this up he needs me Ha!

i will stand by gracia and say you photo shopped them I see you do it before. and plus if your secreat was that desaparate you were inadequate. Gracia is held above that standard I mean look at that chair he is in that would not support two people. you are a disgrace. he would never pick you. Also where are you from? What state?

[cbs1177]

I don't know if farting in the tank is technically a feul....;D

Many many rooms have been cleared b/c of my abilites and also if it was a closed door diplomacy meeting agreements would be made fast like. I love white beans and bacon and eggs. I would be your silent weapon.

[Spider]

Iam seriously concidering party line vote ....... Somthing I have never done before ........ I see a D I put a check next to it ........

[El Minion]

They were all counted to begin with

Where's the outrage? (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/06/20/ING2976LG61.DTL)

1 million black votes didn't count in the 2000 presidential election
It's not too hard to get your vote lost -- if some politicians want it to be lost
- Greg Palast
Sunday, June 20, 2004

In the 2000 presidential election, 1.9 million Americans cast ballots that no one counted. "Spoiled votes" is the technical term. The pile of ballots left to rot has a distinctly dark hue: About 1 million of them -- half of the rejected ballots -- were cast by African Americans although black voters make up only 12 percent of the electorate.

This year, it could get worse.

These ugly racial statistics are hidden away in the mathematical thickets of the appendices to official reports coming out of the investigation of ballot-box monkey business in Florida from the last go-'round.

How do you spoil 2 million ballots? Not by leaving them out of the fridge too long. A stray mark, a jammed machine, a punch card punched twice will do it. It's easy to lose your vote, especially when some politicians want your vote lost.

While investigating the 2000 ballot count in Florida for BBC Television, I saw firsthand how the spoilage game was played -- with black voters the predetermined losers.

Florida's Gadsden County has the highest percentage of black voters in the state -- and the highest spoilage rate. One in 8 votes cast there in 2000 was never counted. Many voters wrote in "Al Gore." Optical reading machines rejected these because "Al" is a "stray mark."

By contrast, in neighboring Tallahassee, the capital, vote spoilage was nearly zip; every vote counted. The difference? In Tallahassee's white- majority county, voters placed their ballots directly into optical scanners. If they added a stray mark, they received another ballot with instructions to correct it.

In other words, in the white county, make a mistake and get another ballot; in the black county, make a mistake, your ballot is tossed.

The U.S. Civil Rights Commission looked into the smelly pile of spoiled ballots and concluded that, of the 179,855 ballots invalidated by Florida officials, 53 percent were cast by black voters. In Florida, a black citizen was 10 times as likely to have a vote rejected as a white voter.

But let's not get smug about Florida's Jim Crow spoilage rate. Civil Rights Commissioner Christopher Edley, recently appointed dean of Boalt Hall School of Law at UC Berkeley, took the Florida study nationwide. His team discovered the uncomfortable fact that Florida is typical of the nation.

Philip Klinkner, the statistician working on the Edley investigations, concluded, "It appears that about half of all ballots spoiled in the U.S.A. --

about 1 million votes -- were cast by nonwhite voters."

This "no count," as the Civil Rights Commission calls it, is no accident. In Florida, for example, I discovered that technicians had warned Gov. Jeb Bush's office well in advance of November 2000 of the racial bend in the vote- count procedures.

Herein lies the problem. An apartheid vote-counting system is far from politically neutral. Given that more than 90 percent of the black electorate votes Democratic, had all the "spoiled" votes been tallied, Gore would have taken Florida in a walk, not to mention fattening his popular vote total nationwide. It's not surprising that the First Brother's team, informed of impending rejection of black ballots, looked away and whistled.

The ballot-box blackout is not the monopoly of one party. Cook County, Ill., has one of the nation's worst spoilage rates. That's not surprising. Boss Daley's Democratic machine, now his son's, survives by systematic disenfranchisement of Chicago's black vote.

How can we fix it? First, let's shed the convenient excuses for vote spoilage, such as a lack of voter education. One television network stated as fact that Florida's black voters, newly registered and lacking education, had difficulty with their ballots. In other words, blacks are too dumb to vote.

This convenient racist excuse is dead wrong. After that disaster in Gadsden, Fla., public outcry forced the government to change that black county's procedures to match that of white counties. The result: near zero spoilage in the 2002 election. Ballot design, machines and procedure, says statistician Klinkner, control spoilage.

In other words, the vote counters, not the voters, are to blame. Politicians who choose the type of ballot and the method of counting have long fine-tuned the spoilage rate to their liking.

It is about to get worse. The ill-named "Help America Vote Act," signed by President Bush in 2002, is pushing computerization of the ballot box.

California decertified some of Diebold Corp.'s digital ballot boxes in response to fears that hackers could pick our next president. But the known danger of black-box voting is that computers, even with their software secure, are vulnerable to low-tech spoilage games: polls opening late, locked-in votes, votes lost in the ether.

And once again, the history of computer-voting glitches has a decidedly racial bias. Florida's Broward County grandly shifted to touch-screen voting in 2002. In white precincts, all seemed to go well. In black precincts, hundreds of African Americans showed up at polls with machines down and votes that simply disappeared.

Going digital won't fix the problem. Canada and Sweden vote on paper ballots with little spoilage and without suspicious counts.

In America, a simple fix based on paper balloting is resisted because, unfortunately, too many politicians who understand the racial bias in the vote- spoilage game are its beneficiaries, with little incentive to find those missing 1 million black voters' ballots.

The headline on this story has been corrected since it appeared in print editions.

Greg Palast is the author of "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy."

Page E - 3
URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/06/20/ING2976LG61.DTL

[cbs1177]

Iam seriously concidering party line vote ....... Somthing I have never done before ........ I see a D I put a check next to it ........

d. rice it would be a vote for her.

[Garcia Bronco]

this will be my campaign song in the south

When it's peach picking time in Georgia apple picking time in Tennessee
Cotton picking time in Mississippi everybody picks on me
When it's roundup time in Texas the cowboys make whoopee
And way down in old Alabama it's gal picking time for me
There's the bluegrass down in Kentucky Virginia's where they do the swing
Carolina now I'm a coming to you come and just to spend the spring
Arkansas I hear you calling I know I'll see you soon
That's where we'll do some picking beneath the Ozark moon
When the pickininees pick the cotton that's the time I pick a wedding ring
We'll go to the town to pick a little gown for the wedding in the spring
Hope the preacher knows his business I know he can't fool me
When it's peach picking time in Georgia it's gal picking time for me

[cbs1177]

Iam seriously concidering party line vote ....... Somthing I have never done before ........ I see a D I put a check next to it ........

Gracia is willing to change his name to d. bronco in order of defense. We have no quarams about names. Shot I will be known as D. sanders. if that sways votes.

[Spider]

d. rice it would be a vote for her.
;D D as in Democrat .. I probably will vote for the best person for the job again , but it is damn tempting to vote like a republican ;D

[Garcia Bronco]

Where's the outrage? (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/06/20/ING2976LG61.DTL)




Horse crap...there is no race check box on the ballot...only a person whos never voted could come up with that kind of garbage. LOL...black or white counties..this isn't 1909.

[cbs1177]

this will be my campaign song in the south

When it's peach picking time in Georgia apple picking time in Tennessee
Cotton picking time in Mississippi everybody picks on me
When it's roundup time in Texas the cowboys make whoopee
And way down in old Alabama it's gal picking time for me
There's the bluegrass down in Kentucky Virginia's where they do the swing
Carolina now I'm a coming to you come and just to spend the spring
Arkansas I hear you calling I know I'll see you soon
That's where we'll do some picking beneath the Ozark moon
When the pickininees pick the cotton that's the time I pick a wedding ring
We'll go to the town to pick a little gown for the wedding in the spring
Hope the preacher knows his business I know he can't fool me
When it's peach picking time in Georgia it's gal picking time for me

a tear to my eye. i can roll off tears in a heart beat. Pick me pick me. Hot rod has yet to announced his home state. I feel it is b/c of the electorial college equation. I mean guy from the deep south.

[SactownOrangeSunday]

As much as I'd love for this to happen, my pessimistic side won't allow me to buy into this just yet. Especially after the results of 2004.

Too much can happen between now and the election.

And as Rohirrim says, Diebold isn't worried!


Well who knows what will happen. It could happen we just have to wait and see. I will say the generally speaking, the out party's supporters are far louder than the in parties supporters in polls like this. I plan to vote Democrat, as much as it kills my Libertarian leanings hehehehe.

[Garcia Bronco]

Well who knows what will happen. It could happen we just have to wait and see. I will say the generally speaking, the out party's supporters are far louder than the in parties supporters in polls like this. I plan to vote Democrat, as much as it kills my Libertarian leanings hehehehe.

For President? You don't even know who's going to be nominated.

[Spider]

I plan to vote Democrat, as much as it kills my Libertarian leanings hehehehe.
I dont know where you live , and this pains me to say , still have to go with the best man for the Job ..... I would love to vote party line , but I dont think I could do it and feel good ....... Perhaps if I can get a bunch of republicans to piss me off before I go to vote ;D

[cbs1177]

For President? You don't even know who's going to be nominated.

umm only name I see is Gracia Bronco. arm chair dipomacly No fued can't be sovled over a tail gate party or outing. Hear hear Gracia

[SactownOrangeSunday]

For President? You don't even know who's going to be nominated.

I am talking about the elections that could shape the Congress and Senate. I wonder if the Dems gain control will they try to impeach?

[SactownOrangeSunday]

I dont know where you live , and this pains me to say , still have to go with the best man for the Job ..... I would love to vote party line , but I dont think I could do it and feel good ....... Perhaps if I can get a bunch of republicans to piss me off before I go to vote ;D


Spide, come be Libertarian, you dont have anything invested in the parties and can piss EVERYONE off hehehehe.

[Garcia Bronco]

umm only name I see is Gracia Bronco. arm chair dipomacly No fued can't be sovled over a tail gate party or outing. Hear hear Gracia

I'll miss the cut...I won't be old enough until 2012

[Spider]

I am talking about the elections that could shape the Congress and Senate. I wonder if the Dems gain control will they try to impeach?
I hope not , not that I think Bush is innocent or in the right , I think Bush is guilty as hell from the civial War on up to Mt.Saint Helens , but I dont want ot drag the country through another impeachment , no justice will come of it , just cost us money ...... if the Dems feel the need , just censure the President and move on to taking care of the real problems facing us .......

[cbs1177]

I am talking about the elections that could shape the Congress and Senate. I wonder if the Dems gain control will they try to impeach?

Carl Rove will announce terrorism strikes and America will be like no we love Bush at 27 percent approval ratings. I mean come one Gracia could unite the nation. He is neither Republican or Democrat only an American in a lawn chair. Slipping a domestic beer. He is for the every day people. not the so called "control of house or senate" gloom and doom.

[Garcia Bronco]

I am talking about the elections that could shape the Congress and Senate. I wonder if the Dems gain control will they try to impeach?

for what? And The can't. Plus...for them it's a PR nightmare. The current democratic package lacks vision and leadership...they've got nothing. They can't sell a bucket of water to a guy on fire. It's very sad

[Spider]

Spide, come be Libertarian, you dont have anything invested in the parties and can piss EVERYONE off hehehehe.
LOL , I wish I could but I cant to old to change I guess , I know the Dems have serious problems , we let the far left take over , but I believe in the Democratic platform , I will be damned if I let a bunch of granola eating hippies chace me off ...... ;D
you have to put your footdown to the Peta types like Hotrod ( ducks and hides ;D )

[cbs1177]

I'll miss the cut...I won't be old enough until 2012 whoa whoa whoa back up the gravy train what do you mean 2012. stupid lawn chair.

[Garcia Bronco]

whoa whoa whoa back up the gravy train what do you mean 2012. stupid lawn chair.


LOL..but I'll campaign in 08 for 12 Andrew Jackson style.

[cbs1177]

LOL..but I'll campaign in 08 for 12 Andrew Jackson style.

crap I will be only 33 years of age not old enough to suced you in case of death. So I can only be your encomonic or Treasury Sec. Not VP vote Hotrod to that dead end job. Although still will campaign with you thru the deep south.

[cbs1177]

I'll miss the cut...I won't be old enough until 2012.

Crap I am here for the photo op with the bronco team. They care less I could beat them in bowling.

[SactownOrangeSunday]

If you're talking about Kaine

I've told you before..in Virginia...and this is strange...if there is a republican President we have a democrat gov and vice versa. Kaine is a decent choice...Kilgore wasn't the guy.


Thats not uncommon actually, in Colorado we usually split our Senators and our Pres vote, well at least in when we elect a Senator in the same year as a predential vote. I voted for Coors because I wanted balance against my vote for president, which was Kerry.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Thats not uncommon actually, in Colorado we usually split our Senators and our Pres vote, well at least in when we elect a Senator in the same year as a predential vote. I voted for Coors because I wanted balance against my vote for president, which was Kerry.

Geeeezus! No wonder this country is going to Hell.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Geeeezus! No wonder this country is going to Hell.

Ain't that the truth?

[W*GS]

Because the SCOTUS prevented a full count from taking place.

Bottom line: All the votes were eventually counted, and, even according to the least inclusive standard, Gore won.

Neither case ("full count" or "least inclusive standard") were the standards used by the Gore team when they went to the judicial system.

Gore gambled with the court card to attempt to override the vote, and lost.

Get over it.

[errand]

now you are starting to understand , Gore did win the popular vote , and he won the Fla recount , what Gore didnt win was the SCOTUS vote .......

In every recount recorded of the '00 Florida vote...more than half of which were oversaw by the liberal media like the NY Times, USAToday, and CNN...Bush won.

[Spider]

In every recount recorded of the '00 Florida vote...more than half of which were oversaw by the liberal media like the NY Times, USAToday, and CNN...Bush won.
If you say so .......

[errand]

Say goodbye to the internal combustion engine....do I need to go on?

Ironically the last clown to suggest this is why this thread was started in the first place.

[errand]

Iam seriously concidering party line vote ....... Somthing I have never done before ........ I see a D I put a check next to it ........

Yeah. like you had to post this for us to believe it to be true. Everyone knows you're just a shill for the Dems...just this side of LABF.

[errand]

Where's the outrage? (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/06/20/ING2976LG61.DTL)

1 million black votes didn't count in the 2000 presidential election
It's not too hard to get your vote lost -- if some politicians want it to be lost
- Greg Palast
Sunday, June 20, 2004


Yeah, we all have heard about this travesty. and yet oddly, when Jessie Jackson was on a news/talk show spouting this very claim, he was simply asked to "name one" by the host. He couldn't.

He couldn't name one person out of the 1.9 million who were allegedly denied to vote, or who had their ballot tossed. Not one solitary name...he just sat there and stammered.

....which leads me to believe it's just another lie that came outta Jesse Jackson's mouth.

[errand]

I am talking about the elections that could shape the Congress and Senate. I wonder if the Dems gain control will they try to impeach?

You know they will try to impeach....they've even said so, numerous times.

[Spider]

Yeah. like you had to post this for us to believe it to be true. Everyone knows you're just a shill for the Dems...just this side of LABF.
LOL you know what I dont care what you believe , what you dont , I learned there is Errand logic , then there is real world logic ..... the 2 never meet .....

[W*GS]

Philip Klinkner, the statistician working on the Edley investigations, concluded, "It appears that about half of all ballots spoiled in the U.S.A. -- about 1 million votes -- were cast by nonwhite voters."

How does one tell the race of a voter?

One can guess, based on the demographics of the precinct and the participation rate, but that's about it.

[W*GS]

Yeah, we all have heard about this travesty. and yet oddly, when Jessie Jackson was on a news/talk show spouting this very claim, he was simply asked to "name one" by the host. He couldn't.

How do you know your vote was counted?

[errand]

LOL you know what I dont care what you believe , what you dont , I learned there is Errand logic , then there is real world logic ..... the 2 never meet .....

Spider, you post way too much hatred of the Republicans to make anyone believe you'd even attempt to vote for one.

According to you they're nothing but a bunch of racist, homo-phobic pedophiles who take our nation into unjustifiable wars....so how could you even consider voting for them at all, if that's what you truly believe?

Face it, you've probably never voted for a Republican....ever. Quit lying and just admit it, clown.

[errand]

How do you know your vote was counted?

How do you know it wasn't?

[Spider]

Spider, you post way too much hatred of the Republicans to make anyone believe you'd even attempt to vote for one.

According to you they're nothing but a bunch of racist, homo-phobic pedophiles who take our nation into unjustifiable wars....so how could you even consider voting for them at all, if that's what you truly believe?

Face it, you've probably never voted for a Republican....ever. Quit lying and just admit it, clown.
LOL if you say so ...... But yeah my hatred for Republicans has grown , alot more over the last 3 years ........by ten fold easy ....... Bush has done more damage to Republicans then anyone else Hilarious! .......

[W*GS]

How do you know it wasn't?

None of us knows for sure what happens after we vote, do we?

So asking Jesse Jackson to come up with a name is disingenuous.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

In every recount recorded of the '00 Florida vote...more than half of which were oversaw by the liberal media like the NY Times, USAToday, and CNN...Bush won.

:bs:

Looks like someone has been listening to too much Oxycontin Boy.

Recount proved Gore won under all scenarios

"In the review of all the state's disputed ballots, Gore edged ahead under all six scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide"

- Associated Press

It's time to refresh everyone's memory of the NORC recount of the Florida 2000 vote. This recount, the only one ever completed, proved a Gore victory under all scenarios for a state-wide recount.

Note that under this recount Gore won even if you include Republican fraud such as the late absentee votes (which were only accepted in Republican counties), the thousands of votes lost to illegal disenfranchisement when people were falsely accused of being felons, and the curious "Jews for Buchanan" phenomenon with the butterfly ballot. If you count the votes, Gore won. If you don't count the votes, Bush won. It's that simple.

What does this mean? It means Gore won both the electoral college and the popular vote. It means the man currently in the oval office is a not a legitimate president. It means democracy was defeated in the year 2000. It means Americans are now living under a coup. Never lose sight of these facts.

Here follows the results in full of the NORC recount. Six different standards for hanging chads and such were considered. All six scenarios resulted in a Gore victory.

-PREVAILING STANDARD: County election officials told Florida journalists how they would define votes if required to do a recount and in this scenario the majority standard was imposed statewide. In punch-card counties, ballots with at least one corner of a chad detached counted as votes. In optical scan counties, where voters are required to fill in blanks on a paper ballot -- like on a standardized test -- ballots with any affirmative marks counted. That means a vote counted even if the oval was not completely filled in or a candidate's name was circled or underlined; so did ballots on which a voter correctly filled in the oval and also wrote the same candidate's name in the space for write-ins.

Result: Gore ahead by 60 votes.

-TWO-CORNER STANDARD: At least two corners of a chad must be detached to count as a vote, a position that had been argued, at times, by Bush supporters. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 105 votes.

-MOST INCLUSIVE: Ballots with dimpled chads count as votes, an argument often made by Gore supporters. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 107 votes.

-LEAST INCLUSIVE: Only cleanly punched chads count as valid votes. For optical scan, only fully filled ovals and those ballots on which a voter filled in the oval and wrote in the candidate's name, too.

Result: Gore ahead by 115 votes.

-COUNTY-by-COUNTY: Drawn from the county election officials. It accepts results from Broward and Volusia counties because those counties completed hand counts that were included in state-certified election totals. For those counties that said they would not count overvotes, relies on prevailing standard.

Result: Gore ahead by 171 votes.

-PALM BEACH STANDARD: Based on a standard Palm Beach election officials briefly used, this counts dimpled chads as valid votes if a pattern of dimpled chads exists elsewhere on the same ballot. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 42 votes.

Media reaction

A close examination of the ballots suggests that more Floridians attempted to choose Gore over Bush. -- Chicago Tribune

Gore would have won most recount scenarios that included "overvotes," ballots that showed votes for more than one candidate. Democrats long have contended that a plurality of Florida voters intended to cast their ballots for Gore but that thousands spoiled their votes because of confusing instructions, badly designed ballots or other obstacles. The study adds evidence to bolster that case. -- LA Times

One of the most compelling questions since the election has been: Who would have won if all the uncounted ballots were hand-counted using the same standards? If that had happened using the counting methods most widely used in the state, the
study shows, Bush would have gotten an extra 3,607 votes, Gore an extra 4,204 -- giving Gore the state by a scant 60-vote margin. -- Orlando Sentinel

But if Gore had found a way to trigger a statewide recount of all disputed ballots,
or if the courts had required it, the result likely would have been different. An examination of uncounted ballots throughout Florida found enough where voter intent was clear to give Gore the narrowest of margins. -- Washington Post

Translation from Washington Post whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

The consortium looked at what might have happened if a statewide recount had included these overvotes as well and found that Gore would have had a margin of fewer than 200 votes -- CNN

Translation from CNN whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

The findings indicate that Mr. Gore might have eked out a victory if he had pursued in court a course like the one he publicly advocated when he called on the state to "count all the votes." -- NY Times

Translation from NY Times whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

A vote-by-vote review of untallied ballots in the 2000 Florida presidential election commissioned by the nation's main media outlets shows Al Gore edged ahead of George W. Bush "under all the scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide," the Drudge Report has learned. -- Matt Drudge

Don't ever let anyone tell you to "get over" this, folks. You don't get over the subversion of democracy in the most powerful nation on the planet. You don't get over an illegal coup. Don't let the Republicans get away with the most monumental theft in history. You owe a debt to your ancestors as well as your children to ensure that this crime is never forgotten.

[W*GS]

The biggest problem with Gore's judicial tactic was that he attempted to use the FL courts to subvert FL's legislature. It didn't work.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/naacp-change.gif

[SactownOrangeSunday]

:bs:

Looks like someone has been listening to too much Oxycontin Boy.

Recount proved Gore won under all scenarios

"In the review of all the state's disputed ballots, Gore edged ahead under all six scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide"

- Associated Press

It's time to refresh everyone's memory of the NORC recount of the Florida 2000 vote. This recount, the only one ever completed, proved a Gore victory under all scenarios for a state-wide recount.

Note that under this recount Gore won even if you include Republican fraud such as the late absentee votes (which were only accepted in Republican counties), the thousands of votes lost to illegal disenfranchisement when people were falsely accused of being felons, and the curious "Jews for Buchanan" phenomenon with the butterfly ballot. If you count the votes, Gore won. If you don't count the votes, Bush won. It's that simple.

What does this mean? It means Gore won both the electoral college and the popular vote. It means the man currently in the oval office is a not a legitimate president. It means democracy was defeated in the year 2000. It means Americans are now living under a coup. Never lose sight of these facts.

Here follows the results in full of the NORC recount. Six different standards for hanging chads and such were considered. All six scenarios resulted in a Gore victory.

-PREVAILING STANDARD: County election officials told Florida journalists how they would define votes if required to do a recount and in this scenario the majority standard was imposed statewide. In punch-card counties, ballots with at least one corner of a chad detached counted as votes. In optical scan counties, where voters are required to fill in blanks on a paper ballot -- like on a standardized test -- ballots with any affirmative marks counted. That means a vote counted even if the oval was not completely filled in or a candidate's name was circled or underlined; so did ballots on which a voter correctly filled in the oval and also wrote the same candidate's name in the space for write-ins.

Result: Gore ahead by 60 votes.

-TWO-CORNER STANDARD: At least two corners of a chad must be detached to count as a vote, a position that had been argued, at times, by Bush supporters. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 105 votes.

-MOST INCLUSIVE: Ballots with dimpled chads count as votes, an argument often made by Gore supporters. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 107 votes.

-LEAST INCLUSIVE: Only cleanly punched chads count as valid votes. For optical scan, only fully filled ovals and those ballots on which a voter filled in the oval and wrote in the candidate's name, too.

Result: Gore ahead by 115 votes.

-COUNTY-by-COUNTY: Drawn from the county election officials. It accepts results from Broward and Volusia counties because those counties completed hand counts that were included in state-certified election totals. For those counties that said they would not count overvotes, relies on prevailing standard.

Result: Gore ahead by 171 votes.

-PALM BEACH STANDARD: Based on a standard Palm Beach election officials briefly used, this counts dimpled chads as valid votes if a pattern of dimpled chads exists elsewhere on the same ballot. Same as prevailing standard for optical scan ballots.

Result: Gore ahead by 42 votes.

Media reaction

A close examination of the ballots suggests that more Floridians attempted to choose Gore over Bush. -- Chicago Tribune

Gore would have won most recount scenarios that included "overvotes," ballots that showed votes for more than one candidate. Democrats long have contended that a plurality of Florida voters intended to cast their ballots for Gore but that thousands spoiled their votes because of confusing instructions, badly designed ballots or other obstacles. The study adds evidence to bolster that case. -- LA Times

One of the most compelling questions since the election has been: Who would have won if all the uncounted ballots were hand-counted using the same standards? If that had happened using the counting methods most widely used in the state, the
study shows, Bush would have gotten an extra 3,607 votes, Gore an extra 4,204 -- giving Gore the state by a scant 60-vote margin. -- Orlando Sentinel

But if Gore had found a way to trigger a statewide recount of all disputed ballots,
or if the courts had required it, the result likely would have been different. An examination of uncounted ballots throughout Florida found enough where voter intent was clear to give Gore the narrowest of margins. -- Washington Post

Translation from Washington Post whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

The consortium looked at what might have happened if a statewide recount had included these overvotes as well and found that Gore would have had a margin of fewer than 200 votes -- CNN

Translation from CNN whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

The findings indicate that Mr. Gore might have eked out a victory if he had pursued in court a course like the one he publicly advocated when he called on the state to "count all the votes." -- NY Times

Translation from NY Times whorespeak to English: The study showed the majority of Floridians voted for Gore.

A vote-by-vote review of untallied ballots in the 2000 Florida presidential election commissioned by the nation's main media outlets shows Al Gore edged ahead of George W. Bush "under all the scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide," the Drudge Report has learned. -- Matt Drudge

Don't ever let anyone tell you to "get over" this, folks. You don't get over the subversion of democracy in the most powerful nation on the planet. You don't get over an illegal coup. Don't let the Republicans get away with the most monumental theft in history. You owe a debt to your ancestors as well as your children to ensure that this crime is never forgotten.

More uninformed babble. I guess you didnt know that the lady in charge of the elections in Palm Beach County, and the one who designed the butterfly ballot, Theresa LePore was GASP, and elected DEMOCRAT. That sort of shoots holes in the Republican stealing the election thing huh. I guess the fact that seventy four Georgia second graders completed a butterfly ballot and didnt make a mistake only means one thing really, Democrats are dumber than second graders. Notice how no one else had a problem with that ballot. :yayaya:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

More uninformed babble.

More inability to disconfirm the facts on your part (what a surprise.)

I guess you didnt know that the lady in charge of the elections in Palm Beach County, and the one who designed the butterfly ballot, Theresa LePore was GASP, and elected DEMOCRAT. That sort of shoots holes in the Republican stealing the election thing huh.

:rofl:

You are alluding here that the butterfly ballot was the only deciding factor in the outcome of election. If you really believe this, then you are much more clueless and uninformed than I thought.

The 50K+ votes that were denied to Gore as a result of the Harris/ChoicePoint purge were enough to hand the election to the smirking sociopath even if all other factors are kept out of the equation.