Japan considers strike against North Korea

[55CrushEm]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060710/D8IP4UC81.html

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Just more posturing evidenced by Japan not even imposing sanctions (http://tinyurl.com/hc9f4) on NK.

[55CrushEm]

Just more posturing evidenced by Japan not even imposing sanctions (http://tinyurl.com/hc9f4) on NK.
Agreed.

[Cito Pelon]

Just more posturing evidenced by Japan not even imposing sanctions (http://tinyurl.com/hc9f4) on NK.

I disagree. This is important. No disrespect intended, but there are so many people on this board that are ignorant of the dynamics in Asia. And as a side note - ignorance doesn't mean "stupid". I mean no disrespect when the word "ignorance" appears in my posts.

Japan amending their Constitution is a huge, huge deal. Every nation in Asia knows the Japanese are potential ass-kickers. What is interesting is how the Chinese and NKoreans have twisted the tiger's tail. I've been saying for a long time it makes no sense. Basically, IMO, they're both scared to death of the Japanese, have no influence over them, and lacking anything else, they attack in any way they can and hope for the best.

Add in Russia's influence on the NKoreans. Where do you think NKorea gets their nuclear technology from? NKorea has always been one of the best Soviet/Russian clients. Japan to this day has territorial disputes with Russia since WWII. Bottom line is there's some big disputes in Asia, and Japan is right in the middle of it. Amending their Constitution to allow offense is a huge, huge deal.

[Rascal]

It's a big deal IF they amend their constitution. So far they are just talking about it, which means they are posturing.

[Cito Pelon]

It's a big deal IF they amend their constitution. So far they are just talking about it, which means they are posturing.

You have to look at how the situation has evolved. Why the Chinese have twisted their tail, I don't know. To me, the last thing they should be looking for is a confrontation with one of the most ass-kickingest nations this planet has ever seen. And the Japanese are a great ally, IMO by far the best ally we have, by far. I like the idea of the Japanese amending their Constitution to allow offense. It isn't posturing, IMO. They're getting pushed too far.

[bendog]

I thought the Chinese had been surprised by Kim BongII's provocation ... or perhaps its more a child tyrant demanding Washington pay attention, as we've not moved forward with negotiations since sometime last fall.

[Rascal]

You have to look at how the situation has evolved. Why the Chinese have twisted their tail, I don't know. To me, the last thing they should be looking for is a confrontation with one of the most ass-kickingest nations this planet has ever seen. And the Japanese are a great ally, IMO by far the best ally we have, by far. I like the idea of the Japanese amending their Constitution to allow offense. It isn't posturing, IMO. They're getting pushed too far.

I've lived in Japan and studied their history for a long time so I'm familiar with them, and until they actually do it...it's just posturing. And yes they are getting pushed.

[Rohirrim]

I've lived in Japan and studied their history for a long time so I'm familiar with them, and until they actually do it...it's just posturing. And yes they are getting pushed.

IMO, just the idea of the Japanese bringing up the subject, posturing or not, should be enough to send the message to China that it is time they put the clamps on their client-state, NK. BTW, anybody know what China does with the refugees that escape from NK and slip into China? They insert wires through their collar bones, string them all together, and march them back to the NK border. Nobody knows what happens to them once they cross the border.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

IMO, just the idea of the Japanese bringing up the subject, posturing or not, should be enough to send the message to China that it is time they put the clamps on their client-state, NK. BTW, anybody know what China does with the refugees that escape from NK and slip into China? They insert wires through their collar bones, string them all together, and march them back to the NK border. Nobody knows what happens to them once they cross the border.
Japan's economy is on pins and needles. They really have no way to enter into any kind of arms race with anyone. China, benefiting from a huge, growing economy knows it too. I doubt they're any too worried about Japan spending a large part of their GNP on a defensive buildup of any kind.

[Rascal]

Japan's economy is on pins and needles. They really have no way to enter into any kind of arms race with anyone. China, benefiting from a huge, growing economy knows it too. I doubt they're any too worried about Japan spending a large part of their GNP on a defensive buildup of any kind.

I wouldn't say pins and needles but they are definetly on one leg.

[Rohirrim]

Japan's economy is on pins and needles. They really have no way to enter into any kind of arms race with anyone. China, benefiting from a huge, growing economy knows it too. I doubt they're any too worried about Japan spending a large part of their GNP on a defensive buildup of any kind.

The U.S. has plenty of weaponry it would be more than glad to "lend" to its good friends, the Japanese. ;)

[Rohirrim]

The other thing to keep in mind; China only has two more years of this U.S. president who will do anything the business interests who profit in China tell him to do. I doubt the next president will be so limp.

[Rascal]

The other thing to keep in mind; China only has two more years of this U.S. president who will do anything the business interests who profit in China tell him to do. I doubt the next president will be so limp.

True, but the one before them helped give them nuclear secrets.

[TheDave]

True, but the one before them helped give them nuclear secrets.

is there really such thing as nuclear secrets these days... I mean how hard is it to figure out 1940's technology.

[Rohirrim]

True, but the one before them helped give them nuclear secrets.

Someday, somebody will write a thesis on how Clinton became the most internet mythologized president in history. Did you know that the guys who flew the jets into the WTC actually worked for Clinton at one time? Yeah. They worked at Whitewater. They were landscapers. And illegal immigrants, besides. One of them was boffin Hillary. Yeah. That's the ticket.

[alkemical]

Add in Russia's influence on the NKoreans. Where do you think NKorea gets their nuclear technology from? NKorea has always been one of the best Soviet/Russian clients. Japan to this day has territorial disputes with Russia since WWII. Bottom line is there's some big disputes in Asia, and Japan is right in the middle of it. Amending their Constitution to allow offense is a huge, huge deal.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,952289,00.html

The two faces of Rumsfeld

2000: director of a company which wins $200m contract to sell nuclear reactors to North Korea
2002: declares North Korea a terrorist state, part of the axis of evil and a target for regime change


Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, sat on the board of a company which three years ago sold two light water nuclear reactors to North Korea - a country he now regards as part of the "axis of evil" and which has been targeted for regime change by Washington because of its efforts to build nuclear weapons.
Mr Rumsfeld was a non-executive director of ABB, a European engineering giant based in Zurich, when it won a $200m (£125m) contract to provide the design and key components for the reactors. The current defence secretary sat on the board from 1990 to 2001, earning $190,000 a year. He left to join the Bush administration.

[alkemical]

True, but the one before them helped give them nuclear secrets.


http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2000/04/strange_bedfell.php

The first-ever visit by a Chinese head of state to Israel last week seemed at first glance rather curious. China, a longtime political and military supporter of the Arabs and Iran, used to denounce Israel as a ‘running dog of US imperialism’ and ‘a racist-fascist state?’ So what was President Jiang Zemin doing hobnobbing in Israel?



Jiang had two objectives: a. deepen the secret 20-year military relationship between China and Israel; b. by openly befriending Israel, counteract growing anti-Chinese feeling in Congress that threatens both China’s exports to the US, and its admission to the World Trade Organization…



The normally pro-Israeli Clinton Administration, however, is not pleased. William Cohen, the US Secretary of Defense, recently unleashed an unprecedented public blast at Israel for selling advanced military technology to China that could threaten American forces in the event of a clash with China over Taiwan.

[Cito Pelon]

I thought the Chinese had been surprised by Kim BongII's provocation ... or perhaps its more a child tyrant demanding Washington pay attention, as we've not moved forward with negotiations since sometime last fall.

The Chinese are playing a very, very dangerous game, IMO, and I've said this for years and years. They have very little control over Kim, and what they did have several years ago, they squandered. I remember back in 2003 I believe it was, the Washington Post reported China mobilized something like 6 divisions of mechanized infantry on the NKorean border, and that brought Kim to the negotiating table. Since then, the Chinese have not put the same pressure on Kim. Why? You tell me. I can speculate several different scenarios.

One, the Chinese are scared of Kim. Two, the Chinese are playing Kim as a card in their own game. Three, the Chinese are playing a game with Russia where Kim is the bait. Four, the Chinese don't know what the f they're trying to accomplish. Five, who the hell knows? We're talking about some of the most secretive, paranoid regimes on earth - China, Russia, NKorea.

I can only look at a few key things - one, the Chinese had to mass infantry divisions on the border to bring Kim into talks, before that, Kim ignored anything from China. Two, Kim made his first trip to China last year I believe it was, and guess what? The rumor of it didn't come out til this year, a rumore still not confirmed to my knowledge. Three, Kim went on a long publicized railroad trip to Moscow in 2003, after the Chinese massed their might on the border of NKorea. Of course, Russia borders NKorea, and their only Pacific port is just north of that border. Four, the Chinese are hell bent for leather after the Japanese.

What all that tells me is the best course of action to neutralize the big players in that region - the Chinese, the Nkoreans, the Russians - is to have an offensive-minded Japan. Great allies. They're some ass-kickers.

[Atlas]

What can Japan really do???

Send them a fleet of defective Toyotas?

[Rascal]

is there really such thing as nuclear secrets these days... I mean how hard is it to figure out 1940's technology.

ask the iranians

[Cito Pelon]

I've lived in Japan and studied their history for a long time so I'm familiar with them, and until they actually do it...it's just posturing. And yes they are getting pushed.

I guess I have a problem with the word "posturing" when it comes to Japan. I don't think they're posturing. I think their warrior spirit is being aroused. Which is why I can't believe China, Russia, NKorea are stupid enough to be challenging them. And which is why I'm glad the Japanese are our ally. Can't ask for a more ass-kicking nation to be on your side. Unless it's Israel.

[Cito Pelon]

...... should be enough to send the message to China that it is time they put the clamps on their client-state, NK. ........

NK is not a client-state of China. Period. Any analysis you make is way off the mark if that is a premise you have.

North Korea is..not.. a ..Chinese..ally!!!!!! They never have been!! They're closer to Russia than the Chinese, for cryin out loud. Who do you think has kept the Chinese off NK's back for all these years? Where do you think the NK's are getting technology from? Russia, duuuh-uh. You think it's a mistake of history that Russia has a border with NKorea? And that border is just below Vladivostok?

[Cito Pelon]

Japan's economy is on pins and needles. They really have no way to enter into any kind of arms race with anyone. China, benefiting from a huge, growing economy knows it too. I doubt they're any too worried about Japan spending a large part of their GNP on a defensive buildup of any kind.

Japan's is a global power. Unless the US abandons them, caving in to Chinese pressure. That would be spineless on the US's part. Agreed?

edit: did some editing.

[Rohirrim]

NK is not a client-state of China. Period. Any analysis you make is way off the mark if that is a premise you have.

North Korea is..not.. a ..Chinese..ally!!!!!! They never have been!! They're closer to Russia than the Chinese, for cryin out loud. Who do you think has kept the Chinese off NK's back for all these years? Where do you think the NK's are getting technology from? Russia, duuuh-uh. You think it's a mistake of history that Russia has a border with NKorea? And that border is just below Vladivostok?

That's funny. When the U.S. forces started kicking NK's ass back to Manchuria, it wasn't the Russian army that drove them back, if I remember correctly. It was the Chinese.

Edit: I may be overselling the case by saying "client state," but the closest ally the NKs have is China. I do believe that China is getting fed up with Hair Boy's tactics, but they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If the NK government falls, the refugees pour into China, if SK and NK become one, they have an American ally, and soldiers, right on their doorstep. Meanwhile, they keep shoveling the food and oil that keeps NK alive. Talk about a rock and a hard place.

[Cito Pelon]

That's funny. When the U.S. forces started kicking NK's ass back to Manchuria, it wasn't the Russian army that drove them back, if I remember correctly. It was the Chinese.

Edit: I may be overselling the case by saying "client state," but the closest ally the NKs have is China. I do believe that China is getting fed up with Hair Boy's tactics, but they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If the NK government falls, the refugees pour into China, if SK and NK become one, they have an American ally, and soldiers, right on their doorstep. Meanwhile, they keep shoveling the food and oil that keeps NK alive. Talk about a rock and a hard place.

Russia borders on NK. China are less pals with NK than Mexico and the US. NK is much better pals with Russia than they are with China.

[W*GS]

Russia borders on NK. China are less pals with NK than Mexico and the US. NK is much better pals with Russia than they are with China.

China has the longest border with NK, Russia's border is very small:

border countries: China 1,416 km, South Korea 238 km, Russia 19 km

[cbs1177]

Well if Cuba launched missiles across Florida then we would be up in arms about it. Same as Japan what if they are not well built and hit Japanese cities. Japan should develop a military. They are a proud people and I think building up a military could jump start a deflationary evironment economy in which they have lived with in the past decade. A well rounded ally is the best. Like England they are well rounded and don't need US troops station in Northern Ireland like Japan has in their neck of the woods.

[Spider]

If I was Japan , I would light that Sawed off runt Kim jong up like a christmas tree

[cbs1177]

If I was Japan , I would light that Sawed off runt Kim jong up like a christmas tree

We as America wouldn't allow Cuba to fire missiles towards us even if they fell in the Gulf of Mexico.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

True, but the one before them helped give them nuclear secrets.

Total BS. :bs:

This claim has been debunked so many times it's not funny.

Bush's SEC Choice Hyped 'Chinagate'

By Robert Parry
June 9, 2005

George W. Bush’s nominee to oversee Wall Street produced a congressional report in 1999 that laid the principal blame for China’s alleged theft of nuclear secrets on the Clinton administration when the primary rupture of secrets actually could be traced to the Reagan-Bush administration of the 1980s.

Last week, Bush picked the report’s author, Rep. Christopher Cox, R-Calif., to become chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, which regulates stock trading in the United States. Bush’s choice of Cox, a self-described “free market” advocate, is seen as a possible retreat from a period of aggressive SEC enforcement that followed scandals at Enron Corp., WorldCom Inc. and other major companies.

During his 16 years in Congress, Cox’s best-known investigation examined the politically sensitive issue of Chinese nuclear spying. In May 1999, Cox released an 872-page report in three glossy volumes accusing the Clinton administration of failing to protect the nation against China’s theft of top-secret nuclear designs and other sensitive data.

The Cox report dovetailed with allegations that a Chinese government front had funneled $30,000 in illegal “soft money” donations to the Democrats in 1996. Some conservative operatives even accused President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore of treason for supposedly trading nuclear secrets for campaign cash.

In 2000, George W. Bush’s campaign exploited these suspicions by running ads showing Gore meeting with saffron-robed monks at a Buddhist temple in California. Millions of Americans surely went to the polls thinking that Gore’s temple appearance and the Chinese nuclear spying were somehow linked.

Clinton Focus

But the Cox report’s emphasis on the Clinton years – and protection of the Reagan-Bush administration – looks, in retrospect, more like a partisan cheap shot than a fair and balanced investigation.

One sleight of hand used in Cox’s report was to leave out dates of alleged Chinese spying in the 1980s to obscure the fact that the floodgates of U.S. nuclear secrets to China – including how to build a miniaturized W-88 nuclear warhead – appeared to have been open during the Reagan-Bush years.

While leaving out time elements for the Reagan-Bush era, Cox listed the years for alleged lapses during the Carter and Clinton administrations.

For instance, the Cox report’s “Overview” states that “the PRC (People’s Republic of China) thefts from our National Laboratories began at least as early as the late 1970s, and significant secrets are known to have been stolen as recently as the mid-1990s.” In other words, Cox started with the Democratic presidency of Jimmy Carter and then jumped over the 12 years of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush to Bill Clinton’s administration.

In the report’s “Overview” alone, there are three dozen references to dates from the Clinton years and only five mentions of dates from the Reagan-Bush years, with none of those citations related to alleged wrongdoing.

In a two-page chronology of the scandal – pages 74-75 – the Cox report puts all the boxes about Chinese espionage suspicions into the Carter and Clinton years. Nothing sinister is attributed specifically to the Reagan-Bush era, other than a 1988 test of a neutron bomb built from secrets that the report says were believed stolen in the “late 1970s,” the Carter years.

Only a careful reading of the text inside the chronology’s boxes makes clear that many of the worst national security breaches apparently occurred on the Reagan-Bush watch.

For instance, a box for 1995 states that a purported Chinese defector walked into a U.S. government office in Taiwan that year and handed over incriminating Chinese documents. While that would seem to apply to a Clinton year, the documents actually showed that Chinese intelligence may have stolen the W-88 secrets “sometime between 1984 and 1992,” Reagan-Bush years.

The Chinese tested their miniaturized warhead in 1992 while George H.W. Bush was president.

Spy Suspect

Left out of the chronology also was the fact that suspicious meetings with Chinese scientists – that made Los Alamos scientist Wen Ho Lee an espionage suspect – took place from 1985 to 1988, while Ronald Reagan was president.

When released on May 25, 1999, the Cox report was greeted by conservative groups and the national news media as an indictment of the Clinton administration. By then, of course, the Washington press corps was obsessed with “Clinton scandals” and viewed almost any allegation through that prism.

Yet, despite the intensity of the media spotlight, little attention was paid to the shallowness of the Cox report. Though filling three volumes and toting up 872 pages, the report had the look of a term paper written by a student trying to stretch the length by expanding the margins and triple-spacing.

The Cox report certainly didn’t resemble the typical green- or beige-bound congressional report. In a shiny black-red-white-and-gold cover, the Cox report used 14-point type, more fitting for a first-grade reading primer than a government document. [By comparison, most congressional reports use 10-point type or smaller.]

Space also was taken up by large graphics, including one page devoted to a photo of a mushroom cloud. Other pages were given over to colorful graphs and shaded boxes defining simple intelligence terms, such as a “walk-in.” Some pages at the start of chapters were entirely black for dramatic effect.

Cooler Heads

Though the Cox report fed the post-impeachment Clinton scandal fever, cooler heads began to prevail in June 1999. A study was issued by the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board – chaired by former Sen. Warren Rudman, R-N.H. – concluding that Chinese spying was less than had been “widely publicized.”

On Sept. 7, 1999, the New York Times weighed in with an article stating that the evidence of Chinese spying was far more tenuous than the Cox report had represented. “The congressional report went beyond the evidence in asserting that stolen secrets were the main reason for China’s breakthrough,” the article said.

Still, the fallout from the spy hysteria continued. The 60-year-old Wen Ho Lee was imprisoned on a 59-count indictment for mishandling classified material. The Taiwanese-born naturalized U.S. citizen was put in solitary confinement with his cell light on at all times. He was allowed out of his cell only one hour a day, when he shuffled around a prison courtyard in leg shackles.

Nine months later, the case against Wen Ho Lee began to collapse and the government accepted a plea bargain on Sept. 13, 2000. The scientist pled guilty to a single count of mishandling classified material.

A furious U.S. District Judge James A. Parker complained that he had been “led astray” by government prosecutors and apologized to Lee for the “demeaning, unnecessarily punitive conditions” under which Lee had been held. Parker ordered Lee released with no further jail time.

Reagan-Bush Lapses

New evidence also pointed to the fact that the hemorrhage of secrets to China traced back to the Reagan-Bush years. After translating more documents from the Chinese defector who had approached U.S. officials in 1995, federal investigators found that the exposure of nuclear secrets in the 1980s had been worse than previously thought.

“The documents provided by the defector show that during the 1980s, Beijing had gathered a large amount of classified information about U.S. ballistic missiles and reentry vehicles,” according to an article in the Washington Post on Oct. 19, 2000.

Still, the Cox report’s suspicions about Clinton-Gore treachery lingered. During Campaign 2000, a pro-Bush conservative group aired an ad modeled after Lyndon Johnson’s infamous 1964 commercial that showed a girl picking a daisy before the screen dissolved into a nuclear explosion.

The ad remake accused the Clinton-Gore administration of selling vital nuclear secrets to communist China, in exchange for campaign donations in 1996. These nuclear secrets, the ad stated, gave communist China “the ability to threaten our homes with long-range nuclear warheads.”

“Chinagate” helped George W. Bush keep Election 2000 close enough so the intervention by five Republicans on the U.S. Supreme Court, stopping a Florida recount, could give Bush the victory.

Looking Back

On Feb. 4-5, 2001, two weeks after George W. Bush took office, the New York Times published a fuller retrospective on the Wen Ho Lee case. A detailed chronology of events again demonstrated that the suspected loss of nuclear secrets dated back to the Reagan-Bush administration.

The Times reported that limited exchanges between nuclear scientists from the United States and China began after President Carter officially recognized China in 1978, but those meetings grew far more expansive and less controlled during the 1980s.

“With the Reagan administration eager to isolate the Soviet Union, hundreds of scientists traveled between the United States and China, and the cooperation expanded to the development of torpedoes, artillery shells and jet fighters,” the Times wrote. “The exchanges were spying opportunities as well.”

But the full story of the Republican-Chinese collaboration was even darker than the Times described.

By 1984, Ronald Reagan’s White House had decided to share sensitive national security secrets with the Chinese communists as it drew Beijing into the inner circle of illicit arms shipments to the Nicaraguan contra rebels.

Reagan’s White House turned to the Chinese for surface-to-air missiles for the contras because the U.S. Congress had banned military assistance to the rebel force and the contras were suffering heavy losses from attack helicopters deployed by Nicaragua’s leftist Sandinista government.

Ollie's Mission

Some of the private U.S. operatives working with White House aide Oliver North had settled on China as a source for SA-7 anti-aircraft missiles. In testimony at his 1989 Iran-Contra trial, North called the securing of these weapons a “very sensitive delivery.”

For the Chinese missile deal in 1984, North said he received help from the CIA in arranging false end-user certificates from the right-wing government of Guatemala. North testified that he “had made arrangements with the Guatemalan government, using the people [CIA] Director [William] Casey had given me.”

But China balked at selling missiles to the Guatemalan military, which was then engaged in a scorched-earth war against its own leftist guerrillas. To resolve this problem, North was dispatched to a clandestine meeting with a Chinese military official.

The idea was to bring the Chinese communists in on what was then one of the most sensitive secrets of the U.S. government: the missiles were not going to Guatemala, but rather into a clandestine pipeline arranged by the White House to funnel military supplies to the contras in defiance of U.S. law.

This was a secret so sensitive that not even the U.S. Congress could be informed, but it was to be shared with communist China.

In fall 1984, North enlisted Gaston J. Sigur, the NSC’s expert on East Asia, to make the arrangements for a meeting with a communist Chinese representative, according to Sigur’s testimony at North’s 1989 trial. “I arranged a luncheon and brought together Colonel North and this individual from the Chinese embassy” responsible for military affairs, Sigur testified.

“At lunch, they sat and they discussed the situation in Central America,” Sigur said. “Colonel North raised the issue of the need for weaponry by the contras, and the possibility of a Chinese sale of weapons, either to the contras or, as I recall, I think it was more to countries in the region but clear for the use of the contras.”

North described the same meeting in his autobiography, Under Fire. To avoid coming under suspicion of being a Chinese spy, North said he first told the FBI that the meeting had been sanctioned by national security adviser Robert C. McFarlane. Then, North went ahead with the meeting to gain the help of communist China.

“Back in Washington, I met with a Chinese military officer assigned to their embassy to encourage their cooperation,” North wrote. “We enjoyed a fine lunch at the exclusive Cosmos Club in downtown Washington.”

North said, in part, the Chinese communists saw the collaboration as a way to develop “better relations with the United States.” Possession of this knowledge also put Beijing in position to leverage U.S. policy in the future.

It was in this climate of cooperation that other secrets, including how to make miniaturized hydrogen bombs, allegedly reached communist China.

Though the evidence of North’s secret contacts with Chinese intelligence had been public knowledge since the late 1980s, the Cox report in 1999 made no reference to this secret collaboration between Reagan’s White House and China.

Enter Wen Ho Lee

Wen Ho Lee first came to the FBI’s attention in 1982 when he called another scientist who was under investigation for espionage, according to the Times chronology. But Lee’s contacts with China – along with trips there by other U.S. nuclear scientists – increased in the mid-1980s as relations warmed between Washington and Beijing.

In March 1985, Lee was seen talking with Chinese scientists during a scientific conference in Hilton Head, S.C. The next year, with approval of Los Alamos, Lee and another scientist attended a conference in Beijing. In 1988, Wen Ho Lee attended another conference in Beijing.

“On Sept. 25, 1992, a nuclear blast shook China’s western desert,” the Times wrote. “From spies and electronic surveillance, American intelligence officials determined that the test was a breakthrough in China’s long quest to match American technology for smaller, more sophisticated hydrogen bombs.”

In September 1992, George H.W. Bush was still president.

In the early years of the Clinton administration, U.S. intelligence experts began to suspect that the Chinese nuclear breakthrough most likely came from purloined U.S. secrets.

“It’s like they were driving a Model T and went around the corner and suddenly had a Corvette,” said Robert M. Hanson, a Los Alamos intelligence analyst, in early 1995, the Times reported.

Looking for possible espionage, investigators began examining the years of the mid-1980s when the Reagan-Bush administration had authorized U.S. nuclear scientists to hold a number of meeting with their Chinese counterparts.

Though the American scientists were under restrictions about what information could be shared, it was never clear exactly why these meetings were held in the first place – given the risk that a U.S. scientist might willfully or accidentally divulge nuclear secrets.

Impeachment Time

But the Chinese-espionage story didn’t gain national attention until March 1999 when the New York Times published several imprecise front-page stories fingering Lee as an espionage suspect. This “Chinagate” story broke just weeks after Clinton’s impeachment and Senate trial for lying about sex with Monica Lewinsky.

With Clinton acquitted by the Senate, the Republicans and the news media were eager for another “Clinton scandal.” To get this fix, they brushed aside the inconvenient timing of the lost secrets from the 1980s and mixed together the suspicions about Chinese spying and allegations of Chinese campaign donations in 1996.

During those chaotic first weeks of “Chinagate,” pundits virtually never noted the logical impossibility of Democrats selling secrets to China in 1996 when China apparently had obtained those secrets a decade or so earlier during a Republican administration.

Conservative groups also grasped the political and fund-raising potential.

Larry Klayman’s right-wing Judicial Watch sent out a solicitation letter seeking $5.2 million for a special “Chinagate Task Force” that would “hold Bill Clinton, Al Gore and the Democratic Party Leadership fully accountable for election fraud, bribery and possibly treason in connection with the ’Chinagate’ scandal.”

“Chinagate involves actions by President Clinton and Vice President Gore which have put all Americans at risk from China’s nuclear arsenal in exchange for million of dollars in illegal campaign contributions from the Communist Chinese,” Klayman’s letter said.

But the ultimate payoff for this twisting of history may have come in November 2000, when possibly millions of Americans went to the polls determined to throw out the Clinton-Gore crowd for selling nuclear secrets to communist China.

That impression was anchored in the public mind by Cox’s three-volume report, which had selectively presented the case and steered away from evidence that implicated the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.

Pending Senate confirmation, Cox now will bring these investigative talents – and George W. Bush’s gratitude – to the chairmanship of the Securities and Exchange Commission.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/060805.html

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek

[Rohirrim]

But the Cox report’s emphasis on the Clinton years – and protection of the Reagan-Bush administration – looks, in retrospect, more like a partisan cheap shot than a fair and balanced investigation.

Gee, ya think? Of course, we're living in the Age of Shamelessness. You can be completely dishonest while calling yourself honorable. You can be a complete, blatant liar (and know it) but insist you're telling the truth. Values have become relative. All you have to do is say you have values, you don't actually have to live by any real principles. It's all rhetoric vs. substance, and in the Rovian world, rhetoric wins every time. That's why chicken hawks with multiple deferments can now publicly smear actual war heroes - and nobody cares! No matter how many times the smear monkeys get busted they just keep repeating the lies over and over. Rove, the organ grinder, has taught them this one trick: Blatant, bald-faced, lying. It's all they know. I'm telling you, the Right lives in Wonderland. The emperor has no clothes. Their policies are failing all over the map while they spend more time sustaining their lies than they do fixing their policies. And they are the only ones who don't know it. Yet.

"And while castles made of sand
fall into the sea
eventually..."
JH

[alkemical]

But the Cox report’s emphasis on the Clinton years – and protection of the Reagan-Bush administration – looks, in retrospect, more like a partisan cheap shot than a fair and balanced investigation.

Gee, ya think? Of course, we're living in the Age of Shamelessness. You can be completely dishonest while calling yourself honorable. You can be a complete, blatant liar (and know it) but insist you're telling the truth. Values have become relative. All you have to do is say you have values, you don't actually have to live by any real principles. It's all rhetoric vs. substance, and in the Rovian world, rhetoric wins every time. That's why chicken hawks with multiple deferments can now publicly smear actual war heroes - and nobody cares! No matter how many times the smear monkeys get busted they just keep repeating the lies over and over. Rove, the organ grinder, has taught them this one trick: Blatant, bald-faced, lying. It's all they know. I'm telling you, the Right lives in Wonderland. The emperor has no clothes. Their policies are failing all over the map while they spend more time sustaining their lies than they do fixing their policies. And they are the only ones who don't know it. Yet.

"And while castles made of sand
fall into the sea
eventually..."
JH



having your cake and eating it too.....

[Atlas]

Maybe Japan can call in Team America to take care of North Korea!!

[Bronx33]

Just cut kim jong ill off from disney memrobillia the rest will fall into place.

[SteveTensi13]

A militarized Japan would be great! Imagine the Samurai warrior spirit spreading across asia. The rising sun battle flag once again waving over China and North Korea. It gives me goose bumps just thinking about it. BANZAI, BANZIA, BANZIA!!

[Spider]

A militarized Japan would be great! Imagine the Samurai warrior spirit spreading across asia. The rising sun battle flag once again waving over China and North Korea. It gives me goose bumps just thinking about it. BANZAI, BANZIA, BANZIA!!
Again I wont insult , But Japan has a history of trying to invade every country in asia ....... Why would that be a good thing ?

[Spider]

We as America wouldn't allow Cuba to fire missiles towards us even if they fell in the Gulf of Mexico.
Nope we sure wouldnt .........

[elsid13]

I think Japan pulled it sanction off the table, because China and Russia promised to put something forward to force NK to behave.

The last thing we want is for Japan to rearm, that would set off arm race between them and China.

[SteveTensi13]

I think Japan pulled it sanction off the table, because China and Russia promised to put something forward to force NK to behave.

The last thing we want is for Japan to rearm, that would set off arm race between them and China.

Whats wrong with an arms race between Japan and China?

[SteveTensi13]

Again I wont insult , But Japan has a history of trying to invade every country in asia ....... Why would that be a good thing ?

I would much rather have a democratic Japan in control of asia then China.

[Spider]

I would much rather have a democratic Japan in control of asia then China.
and could you garuntee that Japan would remain free ? hell look at us right now ,1 step away from a dictatorship thanks to republicans

[elsid13]

Whats wrong with an arms race between Japan and China?


Well -

1) It cause two of our major trading partners to waste money buying arms when they could be trading consumer goods with us.
2) Cause instability in the region, which mean all the other countries in the region have to choice sides- means likely slow down in trading, meaning markets go down, which screw our economy.
3) It means that US needs to put additionally troops and ship in the area to act as stabilizing force, when our Armed services could be better be used elsewhere.
4) It allows that little prick in NK an opperunity to cause more problems.

[spdirty]

Anyone know the history of Japan and Korea in the early to mid 20th century?? You know, theres a reason why every S. Korean I ever came across hates the Japanese. Theyre friggin crazy and thank God they don't have a military.

[SteveTensi13]

and could you garuntee that Japan would remain free ? hell look at us right now ,1 step away from a dictatorship thanks to republicans

There you go again, blaming America.

[elsid13]

Anyone know the history of Japan and Korea in the early to mid 20th century?? You know, theres a reason why every S. Korean I ever came across hates the Japanese. Theyre friggin crazy and thank God they don't have a military.


The war crimes that the Japanese inflicted on the Koreans, where just as bad as what the Nazi did to the Jews or other minority groups.

[spdirty]

The war crimes that the Japanese inflicted on the Koreans, where just as bad as what the Nazi did to the Jews or other minority groups.

yep, amazing that not many people know about it though.

[Spider]

There you go again, blaming America.
Man this is harder then I thought .................. Ok how am I blamming America for this ?

[spdirty]

and could you garuntee that Japan would remain free ? hell look at us right now ,1 step away from a dictatorship thanks to republicans
So what has to happen in order to take that last step?? How many steps have we taken?? How many steps are required?? How are we really that close to destroying 2 branches of gov't in order for one guy to have absolute power??

[SteveTensi13]

I yearn for the days of the Imperial Japanese Grand fleet sailing for the greater glory of the Emperor and empire. Japan is a sleeping giant that has been in slumber since WWII and it's about time it woke up and asserted itself as not only an economic power but as an up and coming Asian superpower aligned with America to keep China and N.Korea in check.

[SteveTensi13]

Man this is harder then I thought .................. Ok how am I blamming America for this ?

Easy, Republican party=America. Can't get any simpler than that.

[Spider]

So what has to happen in order to take that last step?? How many steps have we taken?? How many steps are required?? How are we really that close to destroying 2 branches of gov't in order for one guy to have absolute power??
Several steps have already been taken , the energy meeting , War in Iraq , Patriot act , Homeland security , NSA wire taps , People getting arrested for having a different opinion , Guy in Wisconsin gets arrested for flipping the bird to Bush , the Denver 3 , the so called town hall meeting of Bush and the hand picked crowd ........ the last step will be Bush either W or Jeb in office

[Spider]

Easy, Republican party=America. Can't get any simpler than that.
well you are an expert on simple .........err wait , that wasnt an insult , you made the claim that I blammed America for Japan and NK , can you please in laymens terms tell me how you came to that

[SteveTensi13]

Several steps have already been taken , the energy meeting , War in Iraq , Patriot act , Homeland security , NSA wire taps , People getting arrested for having a different opinion , Guy in Wisconsin gets arrested for flipping the bird to Bush , the Denver 3 , the so called town hall meeting of Bush and the hand picked crowd ........ the last step will be Bush either W or Jeb in office

I can't think of one person whose rights have been denied. Honestly, I have as many rights today as I did when Bill "rapist" clinton was in office. I can write my local newspaper and criticize left and right, I can hold public assembly. If I wanted to I could produce my own newspaper and criticize the government. Heck, there's even a local left-wing nutjob who has billboards criticizing Bush and last I checked she hasn't been jailed once.

The libs like to say Bush uses scare tactics yet they do the exact same thing. Libs see "boogeymen" everywhere trying to take away our freedoms and liberties. They run around like chicken little yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!" and yet people all over the world are beating at our door to get in to this "dictatorship" ruled country!

[Spider]

I can't think of one person whose rights have been denied. Honestly, I have as many rights today as I did when Bill "rapist" clinton was in office. I can write my local newspaper and criticize left and right, I can hold public assembly. If I wanted to I could produce my own newspaper and criticize the government. Heck, there's even a local left-wing nutjob who has billboards criticizing Bush and last I checked she hasn't been jailed once.

The libs like to say Bush uses scare tactics yet they do the exact same thing. Libs see "boogeymen" everywhere trying to take away our freedoms and liberties. They run around like chicken little yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!" and yet people all over the world are beating at our door to get in to this "dictatorship" ruled country!
check out the Denver 3 or the guy in Wisconsin ........
But you still havent explained on how i blamed America , could you please get to that sometime tonight ?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Republican party=America. Can't get any simpler than that.

Hilarious!

I guess the fact that the majority of Americans disapprove of the way your party is handling every issue of importance never encroaches on your "simple" view of the world, does it?

:D

http://www.bartcop.com/kool-aid-kids.jpg

[SteveTensi13]

check out the Denver 3 or the guy in Wisconsin ........
But you still havent explained on how i blamed America , could you please get to that sometime tonight ?

Well, you seem to imply when a country goes on an over seas venture to defend itself it automatically becomes a dictatorship. you seem to be making an analogy between our involvement in Iraq as a prelude to an American dictatorship and Japans threat for a pre-emptive strike to defend itself. So, there.

[SteveTensi13]

Hilarious!

I guess the fact that the majority of Americans disapprove of the way your party is handling every issue of importance never encroaches on your "simple" view of the world, does it?

:D

http://www.bartcop.com/kool-aid-kids.jpg

The silent majority has never dispensed policy based on biased polls or popularity contests. I guess we could be like Kerry who sticks a wet finger in the air every morning to see which way the political winds are blowing and base our decisions on that.

[Spider]

Well, you seem to imply when a country goes on an over seas venture to defend itself it automatically becomes a dictatorship. Nope I still support the afghanistan invasion ..


you seem to be making an analogy between our involvement in Iraq as a prelude to an American dictatorship and Japans threat for a pre-emptive strike to defend itself. So, there.
wow thats a reach .........hope you didnt pull a muscle or somthing ........ I want you to know I am fighting hard not to call you names with this kind of logic ......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I can't think of one person whose rights have been denied.

Hilarious!

This from a guy who supports a "president" who requires oaths of loyalty to the GOP from anyone who would hear said "president" speak in public?

[Spider]

Hilarious!

This from a guy who supports a "president" who requires oaths of loyalty to the GOP from anyone who would hear said "president" speak in public?
:rofl: .......I was wondering about that myself

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The silent majority has never dispensed policy based on biased polls or popularity contests. I guess we could be like Kerry who sticks a wet finger in the air every morning to see which way the political winds are blowing and base our decisions on that.

Ha ha ha! :laugh:

"Biased" polls?

Then every poll in the country is "biased" according to your "reasoning."

In any event, you made a claim, i.e., "Republican party=America," that was totally contrary to the facts, and now you're deflecting.

[SteveTensi13]

Hilarious!

This from a guy who supports a "president" who requires oaths of loyalty to the GOP from anyone who would hear said "president" speak in public?

I saw Bush in Albuquerque and I was never asked for an oath of loyalty.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

:rofl: .......I was wondering about that myself

I'm LMFAO @ his delusion that he belongs to a "majority" in America.

Fact: The majority of Americans disapprove of his nakedly corrupt party and the direction in which it is taking the country.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I saw Bush in Albuquerque and I was never asked for an oath of loyalty.

So, we have your word against all those other confirmed instances in which the oaths were required?

:laugh:

[SteveTensi13]

So, we have your word against all those other confirmed instances in which the oaths were required?

:laugh:

As you like to say, "link"

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

As you like to say, "link"

ROFL!

So, let me get this straight:

Are you denying that BushCo required people sign oaths of loyalty to the GOP before they could attend the dry drunk's speeches?

This should be funny. :D

BTW, your avatar is hilarious considering the majority of the members of the misadministration you support are chickenhawks who never served in the military and Murtha is a combat vet.

[SteveTensi13]

ROFL!

So, let me get this straight:

Are you denying that BushCo required people sign oaths of loyalty to the GOP before they could attend the dry drunk's speeches?

This should be funny. :D

BTW, your avatar is hilarious considering the majority of the members of the misadministration you support are chickenhawks who never served in the military and Murtha is a combat vet.

Well, where's your link? Or am I supposed to just believe you? As far as Murtha is concerned he has been effectively dis-owned by the USMC whom he has dis-honored by calling them war criminals.

[SteveTensi13]

Anyway, to get back on track.. Japan rocks!!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Well, where's your link? Or am I supposed to just believe you?

You didn't answer my question:

Are you denying what I said about the loyalty oaths?

And, as a follow-up question, have you been living in a cave since '04?


As far as Murtha is concerned he has been effectively dis-owned by the USMC whom he has dis-honored by calling them war criminals.

Really?

Can you direct us to the USMC's official statement to that effect?

Can you furnish the quote in which Murtha referred to the USMC as "war criminals?"

Or are you just pulling these claim out of your ass like everything else you post here?

[SteveTensi13]

You didn't answer my question:

Are you denying what I said about the loyalty oaths?

And, as a follow-up question, have you been living in a cave since '04?



Really?

Can you direct us to the USMC's official statement to that effect?

Can you furnish the quote in which Murtha referred to the USMC as "war criminals?"

Or are you just pulling these claim out of your ass like everything else you post here?

washingtontimes.com/national/20060615-121822-1212r.htm

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

washingtontimes.com/national/20060615-121822-1212r.htm

The Moonie Times article you linked does absolutely nothing to substantiate your claims that (1) the USMC has "disowned" Murtha or that (2) Murtha referred to the USMC as "war criminals."

[SteveTensi13]

Hmmm, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it. Murtha said that the marines killed innocent Iraqis. Sooo, if a marine shoots a noncombatant as Murtha alledges, does that not mean they are defacto war criminals? As far as the USMC disowning Murtha. Obviously the military does not get into politics. What I meant is that you would be hard pressed to find any marine, former or current, who says Murtha has their back. More likely they would say Murtha has their back with a knife in it!!

[ClevelandBronco]

The Moonie Times article you linked does absolutely nothing to substantiate your claims that (1) the USMC has "disowned" Murtha or that (2) Murtha referred to the USMC as "war criminals."

Even though he's trying to discredit a reasonable source (C'mon. It's not like the Times is going to make up quotes from Murtha.), LABF's right. There's nothing there that supports your assertion.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Hmmm, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it. Murtha said that the marines killed innocent Iraqis. Sooo, if a marine shoots a noncombatant as Murtha alledges, does that not mean they are defacto war criminals?

You've still done nothing to substantiate your claim that Murtha called the USMC "war criminals."

As far as the USMC disowning Murtha. Obviously the military does not get into politics. What I meant is that....

Backpedalling now, eh?

...you would be hard pressed to find any marine, former or current, who says Murtha has their back. More likely they would say Murtha has their back with a knife in it!!

Really?

You've taken a poll?

I know we'd love to see it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Hmmm, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it. Murtha said that the marines killed innocent Iraqis. Sooo, if a marine shoots a noncombatant as Murtha alledges, does that not mean they are defacto war criminals? As far as the USMC disowning Murtha. Obviously the military does not get into politics. What I meant is that you would be hard pressed to find any marine, former or current, who says Murtha has their back. More likely they would say Murtha has their back with a knife in it!!

Man, does this author have SteveTensi13's number, or what?



Americans who get their propaganda from Fox "News" or are told what to think by right-wing talk radio hosts are outraged at news reports that U.S. troops planned and carried out the rape and murder of a young Iraqi woman. They are not outraged that the troops committed the deed;
they are outraged that the media reported it.

http://counterpunch.org/roberts07042006.html

http://www.bartcop.com/bushhide.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Even though he's trying to discredit a reasonable source (C'mon. It's not like the Times is going to make up quotes from Murtha.), LABF's right. There's nothing there that supports your assertion.


A little 411 on the source in question:

The Moon-Bush Cash Conduit

http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2006/061406Parry.html

The Moon-Bush Cash Conduit
By Robert Parry
June 13, 2006

Over the past quarter century, South Korean theocrat Sun Myung Moon has been one of the Bush family’s major benefactors – both politically and financially – while enjoying what appears to be protection against federal investigations into evidence that his cult-like organization has functioned as a criminal enterprise.

Indeed, the newest disclosure about Moon funneling money to a Bush family entity bears many of the earmarks of Moon’s business strategy of laundering money through a complex maze of front companies and cut-outs so it can’t be easily followed. In this case, according to an article in the Houston Chronicle, Moon’s Washington Times Foundation gave $1 million to the Greater Houston Community Foundation, which in turn acted as a conduit for donations to the George H.W. Bush Presidential Library.

The Chronicle obtained indirect confirmation that Moon’s money was passing through the Houston foundation to the Bush library from Bush family spokesman Jim McGrath. Asked whether Moon’s $1 million had ended up there, McGrath responded, “We’re in an uncomfortable position. ... If a donor doesn’t want to be identified we need to honor their privacy.”

But when asked whether the $1 million was intended to curry favor with the Bush family to get President George W. Bush to grant a pardon for Moon’s 1982 felony tax fraud conviction, McGrath answered, “If that’s why he gave the grant, he’s throwing his money away. ... That’s not the way the Bushes operate.”

McGrath then added, “President Bush has been very grateful for the friendship shown to him by the Washington Times Foundation, and the Washington Times serves a vital role in Washington. But there can’t be any connection to any kind of a pardon.” [Houston Chronicle, June 8, 2006 citing the work of private researcher Larry Zilliox.]

Continued at link.

[ClevelandBronco]

Man, does this author have SteveTensi13's number, or what?



http://www.bartcop.com/bushhide.jpg

Yeah, but herein lies a problem for you: You try to discredit the Washington Times as a source for SteveTensi13, while countering his point of view with posts from counterpunch and bartcop.

Of those three sources, which one would you guess should be most likely to be taken seriously?

I agree that the Times did not support his original assertion, but it'll take a better source than those "pretend" news sites you offered in rebuttal.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yeah, but herein lies a problem for you: You try to discredit the Washington Times as a source for SteveTensi13, while countering his point of view with posts from counterpunch and bartcop.

I didn't try to discredit the source - I tried to discredit his facts (and succeeded.)

Facts are facts, whether they are printed in the Moonie Times or in a Counterpunch article.


I agree that the Times did not support his original assertion, but it'll take a better source than those "pretend" news sites you offered in rebuttal.

The burden of proof was on him - not me.

And certainly you're not suggesting that the liberal sites you mentioned never get their facts right and/or never provide sources to support their claims?

Of those three sources, which one would you guess should be most likely to be taken seriously?


Certainly not the Moonie Times:

The Moon-Bush Cash Conduit

http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2006/061406Parry.html

The Moon-Bush Cash Conduit
By Robert Parry
June 13, 2006

Over the past quarter century, South Korean theocrat Sun Myung Moon has been one of the Bush family’s major benefactors – both politically and financially – while enjoying what appears to be protection against federal investigations into evidence that his cult-like organization has functioned as a criminal enterprise.

Continued at link.

[ClevelandBronco]

And then you come back with the highly regarded Baltimore Chronicle. Not a real newspaper by any standards (it's a monthly that supports itself through donations, as near as I can tell), but it sure sounds like a good name for a real news source.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And then you come back with the highly regarded Baltimore Chronicle. Not a real newspaper by any standards (it's a monthly that supports itself through donations, as near as I can tell), but it sure sounds like a good name for a real news source.

I guess this sort of statement serves as a shortcut to inquiring as to whether or not the Chronicle's facts and/or references are in order.

Or are you suggesting that the Chronicle is the only source that has detailed the relationship between Moon and the Bush family?

[ClevelandBronco]

I didn't try to discredit the source - I tried to discredit his facts (and succeeded.)

In my opinion, you only succeeded in finding a pitiful source that agrees with you.

[QUOTE=L.A. BRONCOS FAN]The burden of proof was on him - not me.

Noted: SteveTensi13 should be made to offer proof. You shouldn't.

And certainly you're not suggesting that the liberal sites you mentioned never get their facts right and/or never provide sources to support their claims?

No, I'm not. And by the same measure, I assume that you're certainly not suggesting that the Washington Times never gets its facts right and/or never provides sources to support its claims. Furthermore, I assume you'd never suggest that sources such as the Baltimore Chronicle, counterpunch and bartcop could ever be compared favorably to the Washington Times.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No, I'm not. And by the same measure, I assume that you're certainly not suggesting that the Washington Times never gets its facts right and/or never provides sources to support its claims.

Nope. 2+2=4 even if the Moonie Times says so.

Furthermore, I assume you'd never suggest that sources such as the Baltimore Chronicle, counterpunch and bartcop could ever be compared favorably to the Washington Times.

First of all, I'm less concerned with "favorable" (pretty subjective) comparisons than with facts. However, for what it's worth, I don't see how anyone who is aware of the nature of the relationship between Moon and the Bush family could hold a favorable opinion of the WA Times.

Second, your repeated attempts to impugn the credibility of the Baltimore Chronicle suggest to me that you didn't bother to read the article about the Moon/Bush relationship. Were this not the case, you would have noticed the sources the author cited, viz., the Houston Chronicle, et al.

In any event, all you are doing here, unfortunately, is engaging in more "attack the messenger and pretend you've discredited the message."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

BTW, I also forgot to mention that the article that appeared in the Baltimore Chronicle was written by Robert Parry - a highly reputable veteran journalist who broke many of the stories about Iran-Contra for the AP in the 80s.

[ClevelandBronco]

In any event, all you are doing here, unfortunately, is engaging in more "attack the messenger and pretend you've discredited the message."

You've rolled out one of your favorite cannards. But you'll remember that you are attacking the WATimes in an effort to discredit the message. We all pick and choose among the many sources at our fingertips.

Cite the Houston Chronicle and I won't impugn your source. Cite something like the Baltimore Chronicle and I'll call you for offering up a weak source.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You've rolled out one of your favorite cannards. But you'll remember that you are attacking the WATimes in an effort to discredit the message.

Wrong.

I didn't attack the WA Times in an effort to discredit the message.

Remember - the burden of proof was on Tensi - not me. And, as you acknowledged, Tensi failed to prove his case w/ the Times article he linked.

I was just poking fun at the Moonie Times.

Cite the Houston Chronicle and I won't impugn your source. Cite something like the Baltimore Chronicle and I'll call you for offering up a weak source.

As I said, the author of the Baltimore Chronicle article cited research by the Houston Chronicle in the artilcle I posted.

But calling the Baltimore Chronicle a "weak source" isn't an honest debate tactic when, as in this instance, its facts and references are in order.

This kind of tactic is like trying to argue that you shouldn't trust a musician to make good music anymore just because he left a major label and signed with an indy label.

[elsid13]

I yearn for the days of the Imperial Japanese Grand fleet sailing for the greater glory of the Emperor and empire. Japan is a sleeping giant that has been in slumber since WWII and it's about time it woke up and asserted itself as not only an economic power but as an up and coming Asian superpower aligned with America to keep China and N.Korea in check.


Guess you forgot the event called Pearl Harbor, huh.

[Spider]

Guess you forgot the event called Pearl Harbor, huh.
Pearl Harbor = good thing our air craft carriers were not there ..........

[Spider]

History class in New Mexico must be an elective ...... like shop ........
Japan even stabbed Hitler in the back , Hitler didnt want war with America , at least not then ......... Japan did Pearl Harbor on their own accord .......

[defenseman]

Guess you forgot the event called Pearl Harbor, huh.

We've been lock and step with Japan for a while now, and yes, if N. Korea decides to play silly games, we'll be in there right with Japan....have no doubt about that...dman

[Saddletramp]

Japan's economy is on pins and needles. They really have no way to enter into any kind of arms race with anyone.


Well, Toyotas enterance into Nascar's Nestel Series should ease Japans economic problems. The money generated by the fasted growing sport in the world will, again, ease their money problems.











































ROFL! ROFL! ROFL!

[Saddletramp]

History class in New Mexico must be an elective ...... like shop ........
Japan even stabbed Hitler in the back , Hitler didnt want war with America , at least not then ......... Japan did Pearl Harbor on their own accord .......
uh...... we were at war with Germany (Hitler) long before Pearl Harbor.

[elsid13]

uh...... we were at war with Germany (Hitler) long before Pearl Harbor.


If you were refering to "leasing" agreement between US and Great Britain, then yes were providing material support to the British. But declaration of war against Nazi Germany happen after the attacks on Pearl Harbor.

And Dman there is a great difference being allied with democratic nation in matters of self defense and wishing for the return of brutal imperialist nation, that had culture that rivaled the Nazi for actions against other cultures.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Blaming the Other Guy – Again

July 11, 2006

By virtually every measure the Bush administration’s North Korea policy is a failure. Diplomatic efforts have broken down, missiles are being test fired, and plutonium production has resumed. Yesterday, Press Secretary Tony Snow unveiled the administration’s new strategy: bash Clinton. During the White House press conference, Snow accused the Clinton administration of going to North Korea with “flowers and chocolates,” and “light-water nuclear reactors.” The reality is that the Bush administration is now scrambling to return to where the Clinton administration left off: A meaningful diplomatic engagement that puts North Korea’s nuclear program on ice.

Under President Clinton, North Korea produced no plutonium. In 1994, the United States almost went to war with North Korea to prevent the further development of their nuclear arsenal. The creation of the “Agreed Framework” – which prevented any conflict – forced North Korea to shut down its major nuclear reactor, stop construction of two nuclear power plants, and subject spent nuclear fuel to international inspection. In return, Japan and South Korea agreed to build two light-water reactors, which is far less of a proliferation concern, and the United States would supply North Korea with heavy oil to make up for the lost energy from its shuttered nuclear plants. While not perfect, the end result was that during the Clinton administration North Korea didn’t produce any plutonium. And it should be noted that this program received consistent support from the conservative leaders who controlled Congress at that time.

Under President Bush, North Korea ratcheted up its plutonium production. Upon taking office, the Bush administration rejected Colin Powell’s recommendation to “pick up where President Clinton and his administration left off.” Instead, the Bush administration reversed Theodore Roosevelt’s approach to foreign policy, by speaking loudly but carrying no stick, and ramping up the rhetoric. When North Korea responded to the administration’s rhetoric by expelling international inspectors and unsealing its nuclear facilities, the Bush administration had no effective response. The result is that North Korea now has enough plutonium to produce as many as ten additional nuclear weapons.

The Bush administration outsourced diplomacy to Russia and China. The Bush administration has been paralyzed on North Korea, split between pragmatists who want to negotiate an end to the nuclear program and ideologues who want to end the regime. Its strategy of “six-party talks,” meetings between the United States, North Korea, South Korea, China, Japan, and Russia, is a good one, but for two years these sessions went nowhere as U.S. negotiators were forbidden to actually negotiate. When the strategy of regime elimination proved feckless, the hardliners went to Plan B: Let China do it. When Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice opened direct, bilateral negotiations with North Korea in 2005, she made rapid progress producing a landmark agreement in September 2005 to end the nuclear program. But it was immediately sabotaged by hardliners who wanted to squeeze North Korea by blocking bank credits. North Korea responded with missile tests. It’s time to put Rice back in charge, and to negotiate a final end to the nuclear and missile programs.

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/apps/nl/newsletter2.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=700005

[Spider]

uh...... we were at war with Germany (Hitler) long before Pearl Harbor.
No sir we wasnt ..........We was trading and sending supplies to the Brittish , but we wasnt at war ....................