Any alternate approaches to Iraq/terrorism?

[mosca]

One only needs to read some of the opinions on this message board to see that we live in turbulent times, especially in regards to the U.S. response to Islamic terrorism and its relation to the war in Iraq. The current administration seems to be adamant against a set timetable for pulling out, and is determined to outlast the Iraqi insurgency (and the global Jihadist movement overall) no matter how many years it takes. It seems to be more of a war of attrition and willpower than anything else. A victory using this approach will require years to decades.

What I want to ask of those who are against the Bush admin's approach and especially the ongoing occupation of Iraq is - if you could put, come 2008, whoever you'd wish into power in the White House and/or Congress, and with them a change in policy towards the Middle East, in what other specific way do you see a victory/positive outcome coming about?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Before we do anything else, we obviously need regime change at home. We need to replace the bellicose, cowboy foreign policies of BushCo with intelligent leadership and an administration that can restore our standing in the world via accountability. That is to say, we need to demonstrate that we won't tolerate the Abu Ghraibs and the secret torture facilities sanctioned by this criminal administration and that we will actually hold our leaders accountable for such transgressions.

The approach to combatting terrorism needs to be one of "draining the swamp" as opposed to the indefinite war of attrition you described (which is obviously unsustainable (economically and in human terms) and, as the last three years have demonstrated, a recipe for failure.)

Bill Clinton nailed it when he said you can't capture or kill all of your enemies and that we would win by making as many friends as possible throughout the world (as opposed to making as many enemies as possible like BushCo is doing.)

[Spider]

treat it as a crime ........you cant declare war on individuals ....

[The Lone Bolt]

Before we do anything else, we obviously need regime change at home. We need to replace the bellicose, cowboy foreign policies of BushCo with intelligent leadership and an administration that can restore our standing in the world via accountability. That is to say, we need to demonstrate that we won't tolerate the Abu Ghraibs and the secret torture facilities sanctioned by this criminal administration and that we will actually hold our leaders accountable for such transgressions.

The approach to combatting terrorism needs to be one of "draining the swamp" as opposed to the indefinite war of attrition you described (which is obviously unsustainable (economically and in human terms) and, as the last three years have demonstrated, a recipe for failure.)

Bill Clinton nailed it when he said you can't capture or kill all of your enemies and that we would win by making as many friends as possible throughout the world (as opposed to making as many enemies as possible like BushCo is doing.)

Specifically, what would you do as President to "drain the swamp?"

[55CrushEm]

That is to say, we need to demonstrate that we won't tolerate the Abu Ghraibs and the secret torture facilities sanctioned by this criminal administration

LOL .....what a goon. "Secret torture facilities"......Ha!

Why don't you just post a link to MoveOn.org on each of your posts, you nimwit?

[Spider]

LOL .....what a goon. "Secret torture facilities"......Ha!


Ha! we agree to a point here , I am not against all torture , what went on at Abu Gharib was way above the acceptence level ......but thats not to say more Abu Gharib may not be happining

[55CrushEm]

Ha! we agree to a point here , I am not against all torture , what went on at Abu Gharib was way above the acceptence level ......but thats not to say more Abu Gharib may not be happining

Exactly Spide......you and I have our differences.....but to say we have "secret torture facilities sanctioned by this criminal administration" is ridiculous on several counts.....

LABF honestly thinks that Bush PERSONALLY knew what these 3 or 4 idiot marines were doing in that prison, AND told them to do it.....quite a stretch, but apparently not for LABF....

[bendog]

I never liked the "iraq gambit," and I really don't like this admin's view of "let's do it till somebody makes us stop" view of law. However, the premise of the thread is a bit scewed imo. I do think the admin is making progress in cutting funding to terrorist groups. It's heavy handed. Personally, I have no issue with Hamas. Some of what they do is good. Some bad. But I don't consider them to be terrorists in the US eyes. Still, the admin has accomplished some good stuff. The NSA phone thing. The warrantless tapping on US phones is, imo, wrong. But the looking at incoming and outgoing intl calls ... I'm ok with hwat's been disclosed so far, though to get the actual content of the calls, imo a warrant should be required.

[Spider]

Exactly Spide......you and I have our differences.....but to say we have "secret torture facilities sanctioned by this criminal administration" is ridiculous on several counts.....

LABF honestly thinks that Bush PERSONALLY knew what these 3 or 4 idiot marines were doing in that prison, AND told them to do it.....quite a stretch, but apparently not for LABF....
;) would say the Buck stops with Rumsfield though

[Bronco_Beerslug]

LOL .....what a goon. "Secret torture facilities"......Ha!

You have a hard time keeping up, that's obvious. It's not like it's "new" news or anything.

-------------------------------------------------------------
CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons
Debate Is Growing Within Agency About Legality and Morality of Overseas System Set Up After 9/11

By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 2, 2005; Page A01

The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.

The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.

CONT (http://tinyurl.com/bbqyx)

Top GOP senator says Gitmo hearings might be appropriate
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The chief of Amnesty International USA alleged Sunday that the Guantanamo Bay detention camp is part of a worldwide network of U.S. jails, some of them secret, where prisoners are mistreated and even killed.

CONT (http://tinyurl.com/9skla)

[55CrushEm]

;) would say the Buck stops with Rumsfield though

I would agree that certain "higher ups" need to be held accountable....and to be honest, my opinions on Rumsfeld are mixed.

But for some idiot marines' misconduct to ultimately result in the firing of the Secretary of Defense, regardless of who they are, MAY be a bit extreme.....do you need to go that high?

Perhaps these clowns immediate commanding officer ought to take the heat as well.....but I don't know about the SOD....as with the President, I honestly don't think that Rumsfeld knew this was going on....if he did, it's another story.

To me, it's prison porn.....primarily the outrage seems to be over naked prisoners and pictures of them....are the marines who did this idiots? Absolutely.

But then, clowns like LABF say we must have these "secret torture chambers" everywhere......what a hoot. I know he would LIKE to think that this is common behavior of marines.....but every rational person knows it's not.

[55CrushEm]

You have a hard time keeping up, that's obvious.

No....what's obvious is that you and LABF like to assume the worst of our soldiers. And what about "secret prisons" has anything to do with the ridiculous notion of secret "torture facilities" ?

Just what you're HOPING is the case, right? Or at least what your CNN and Washington Post reporters hope....

[Spider]

I would agree that certain "higher ups" need to be held accountable....and to be honest, my opinions on Rumsfeld are mixed.

But for some idiot marines' misconduct to ultimately result in the firing of the Secretary of Defense, regardless of who they are, MAY be a bit extreme.....do you need to go that high?

Perhaps these clowns immediate commanding officer ought to take the heat as well.....but I don't know about the SOD....as with the President, I honestly don't think that Rumsfeld knew this was going on....if he did, it's another story.

To me, it's prison porn.....primarily the outrage seems to be over naked prisoners and pictures of them....are the marines who did this idiots? Absolutely.

But then, clowns like LABF say we must have these "secret torture chambers" everywhere......what a hoot. I know he would LIKE to think that this is common behavior of marines.....but every rational person knows it's not.

i was one of the very few that defended the troops over Abu Grabáss .....
no way a backwards redneck from VA. Knows to bring a dog collar or few other things .....
no this isnt rational behavior , but it is clearly a breakdown in the command chain , and lack of training .........we have to point ot the higher ups for this , they are in Charge , they should have a handle on this .....
our troops are in a bad way , in the middle of a meat grinder and they dont know foe or friend ...... Damn right they are trigger happy as all of us would be ..... why is that ? 99.9% of poor planning ........

[defenseman]

Before we do anything else, we obviously need regime change at home. We need to replace the bellicose, cowboy foreign policies of BushCo with intelligent leadership and an administration that can restore our standing in the world via accountability. That is to say, we need to demonstrate that we won't tolerate the Abu Ghraibs and the secret torture facilities sanctioned by this criminal administration and that we will actually hold our leaders accountable for such transgressions.

The approach to combatting terrorism needs to be one of "draining the swamp" as opposed to the indefinite war of attrition you described (which is obviously unsustainable (economically and in human terms) and, as the last three years have demonstrated, a recipe for failure.)

Bill Clinton nailed it when he said you can't capture or kill all of your enemies and that we would win by making as many friends as possible throughout the world (as opposed to making as many enemies as possible like BushCo is doing.)

This will not wash in the long run. That's like ensuring your "teenage" son or daughter is your "friend". WILL NOT WORK. There are some enemies that will ALWAYS be your enemy, because, you are who you are. So be it. Pandering to them, only sets them up later on to be able to hammer you and good. This approach will get nothing but heartache..dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

No....what's obvious is that you and LABF like to assume the worst of our soldiers. What don't you understand about it's not our soldiers who are doing these things but the Bush administration?

And what about "secret prisons" has anything to do with the ridiculous notion of secret "torture facilities" ?
What would be the purpose of secret prisons then?

Just what you're HOPING is the case, right? Or at least what your CNN and Washington Post reporters hope.... Typically Bushbot sh*t again from you. How come you don't understand that doing these things CREATES hate and disdain for our country and people and CREATES more of the assholes that attacked us?

[55CrushEm]

Abu Grabáss .....

LOL ....now THAT was funny. Hadn't heard that one before.

[55CrushEm]

What don't you understand about it's not our soldiers who are doing these things but the Bush administration

So Bush and Rummy PERSONALLY stuck the broomsticks and electrodes up their arses? Now I've got it.....


What would be the purpose of secret prisons then?

So you're admitting this is your ASSUMPTION? Typical....no proof.


How come you don't understand that doing these things CREATES hate and disdain for our country

Only from Marxists like you, John Fonda.

[defenseman]

No....what's obvious is that you and LABF like to assume the worst of our soldiers. And what about "secret prisons" has anything to do with the ridiculous notion of secret "torture facilities" ?

Just what you're HOPING is the case, right? Or at least what your CNN and Washington Post reporters hope....

Not unlike the reporters and newspapers who slander our own. Facts very ambiguous in most cases, lots of conjecture,jumping to conclusions. Articles slanted hard against the war effort. Making it "easier" for the enemy. I term it aiding and abeding. Not dissention. The guilty media institutions need to be whacked off at the knees. Unamerican is the only way I can characterize them........dman

*toss murtha in their with them. He knows better, I don't care who his source is or isn't. You let the UCMJ, Art. 32 if necessary and the investigation follow it's intended course. THEN, you can comment.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So Bush and Rummy PERSONALLY stuck the broomsticks and electrodes up their arses? Now I've got it..... Who sent them over there?

So you're admitting this is your ASSUMPTION? Typical....no proof. Once again,what's the reasoning for secret prisons in Eastern Europe?


Only from Marxists like you, John Fonda.
IF, you could pull yourself off of Bush's pickle long enough to see what's going on around you, you might be surprised what you could learn. I know you can do it, Errant will spell you awhile.

[Spider]

Not unlike the reporters and newspapers who slander our own. Facts very ambiguous in most cases, lots of conjecture,jumping to conclusions. Articles slanted hard against the war effort. Making it "easier" for the enemy. I term it aiding and abeding. Not dissention. The guilty media institutions need to be whacked off at the knees. Unamerican is the only way I can characterize them........dman

*toss murtha in their with them. He knows better, I don't care who his source is or isn't. You let the UCMJ, Art. 32 if necessary and the investigation follow it's intended course. THEN, you can comment.
slander or truth ?

How pissed would we be if we were told propaganda and everything is great , then have all of this come back on us ?

[defenseman]

Who sent them over there?
Once again,what's the reasoning for secret prisons in Eastern Europe?


IF, you could pull yourself off of Bush's pickle long enough to see what's going on around you, you might be surprised what you could learn. I know you can do it, Errant will spell you awhile.

Turn about fair play. You take off the blinders and maybe someone will get off the pickle, afterall, one good turn deserves another....dman

[55CrushEm]

Once again,what's the reasoning for secret prisons in Eastern Europe?
You tell me.....you're the one jumping to ridiculous assuptions with no proof.

IF, you could pull yourself off of Bush's pickle long enough
Hey, I don't play that field.....YOU'RE the one for gay marriage, not me.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You tell me.....you're the one jumping to ridiculous assuptions with no proof. EXCLUSIVE: Sources Tell ABC News Top Al Qaeda Figures Held in Secret CIA Prisons
10 Out of 11 High-Value Terror Leaders Subjected to 'Enhanced Interrogation Techniques'

By BRIAN ROSS and RICHARD ESPOSITO

Dec. 5, 2005 — Two CIA secret prisons were operating in Eastern Europe until last month when they were shut down following Human Rights Watch reports of their existence in Poland and Romania.

Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today. The officers say 11 top al Qaeda suspects have now been moved to a new CIA facility in the North African desert.

CONT (http://tinyurl.com/9traa)


Hey, I don't play that field.....YOU'RE the one for gay marriage, not me. Nope, unlike Bush disciples and the like, I could care less if they get married but trying to change the Constitution to further the religious right agenda is unacceptable.

[55CrushEm]

EXCLUSIVE: Sources Tell ABC News Top Al Qaeda Figures Held in Secret CIA Prisons
10 Out of 11 High-Value Terror Leaders Subjected to 'Enhanced Interrogation Techniques'

By BRIAN ROSS and RICHARD ESPOSITO

Dec. 5, 2005 — Two CIA secret prisons were operating in Eastern Europe until last month when they were shut down following Human Rights Watch reports of their existence in Poland and Romania.

Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today. The officers say 11 top al Qaeda suspects have now been moved to a new CIA facility in the North African desert.


So I ask you yet again.....how does this prove that "secret prisons" are "torture facilities"?

Exactly.....it doesn't. It's just what you HOPE it means.....

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So I ask you yet again.....how does this prove that "secret prisons" are "torture facilities"?

Exactly.....it doesn't. It's just what you HOPE it means.....
Oh, now we're admitting yeah, we run secret prisons but no way would we ever torture detainees in these secret prisons?

[55CrushEm]

Nope, unlike Bush disciples and the like, I could care less if they get married but trying to change the Constitution to further the religious right agenda is unacceptable.

A vast majority of states already have laws banning gay marriage. And an even bigger majority of Americans are against it....it is what the people want (or rather, DON'T want). I.e. they don't want the definition of marriage changed....it has been between a man and a woman for what, a thousand years or more?

But you like to pander to the vast MINORITY....

[Bronco_Beerslug]

A vast majority of states already have laws banning gay marriage. And an even bigger majority of Americans are against it....it is what the people want (or rather, DON'T want). I.e. they don't want the definition of marriage changed....it has been between a man and a woman for what, a thousand years or more?

But you like to pander to the vast MINORITY....
Nope, I don't want government dictating their personal moral values in the form of rewriting the Constitution. Sad to think that some Americans think this is acceptable.

[defenseman]

slander or truth ?

How pissed would we be if we were told propaganda and everything is great , then have all of this come back on us ?

The media, in general, spews anti-war propoganda constantly. The reaction of the key players in the media during and shortly thereafter we caught Zarqawi is a perfect example. Is everything great? Nope, not until the war is over and done with. Come back on us? C'mon. Given todays society's access to the "information" available, you'd be nuts to not call a spade a spade if you were the military. However, the media gets a free pass with convicting the marines in haditha, BEFORE NCIS gets done, let alone an article 32. Then again, if one of our own senators convicts in the press, I guess I should lump his dumb a$$ in with the media pundits......bottom line: lots of anti-war propoganda, innuendos and assumptions that people swallow hook, line and sinker, and assume the media is correct, nothing could be farther from the truth. If they would report, and leave the rest to the reader WITHOUT the anti war crap, they'd be OK in my book...dman

*They demonize the US constantly, when it fact, they are the demons.

[55CrushEm]

Oh, now we're admitting yeah, we run secret prisons but no way would we ever torture detainees in these secret prisons?

Again, where's the proof......there is none. I hope we are torturing terrorists, if that's the only way we can extract info from them.

Hypothetical: If you had a guy captured, that told you he buried your child alive, and that your child only has about an hour of air left.....what would you do to this monster to extract the info from him as to where your child was?

Answer: ANYTHING.

[KSigBrothers]

simple...Neutron bomb (kills people, leaves the buildings) every evil country, make them states, and take their oil..

But to be serious, we must continue to take the fight to the terrorists (and yes they were in Iraq way before we were), where they live, or they will bring the fight to where we live, in our cities, and in our streets, and were all fair game

[Bronco_Beerslug]

*They demonize the US constantly, when it fact, they are the demons. Nothing could be further form the truth. Without the media the "demons" would rule with impunity.


But to be serious, we must continue to take the fight to the terrorists (and yes they were in Iraq way before we were), where they live, or they will bring the fight to where we live, in our cities, and in our streets, and were all fair game I didn't think there were any of these guys left.

[defenseman]

Nope, I don't want government dictating their personal moral values in the form of rewriting the Constitution. Sad to think that some Americans think this is acceptable.

I am not a proponent of rewriting the constitution to ban gay marriage. To be honest, it will eventually become acceptable to do such, but not for a while yet. The states should have full control EXCEPT for activists judges that overrule the vote of the people. A law needs to be passed to prevent that. Talk to the people in MA. I'm sure they'll clue you in on that one..dman

[55CrushEm]

Nope, I don't want government dictating their personal moral values in the form of rewriting the Constitution. Sad to think that some Americans think this is acceptable.

Correction....MOST Americans don't think it is acceptable for the definition of marriage to include 2 people of the same sex.

Why do homosexuals need to get "married" anyway? Any of their material needs/wants can be obtained through other forms of contracts.....

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I am not a proponent of rewriting the constitution to ban gay marriage. To be honest, it will eventually become acceptable to do such, but not for a while yet. The states should have full control EXCEPT for activists judges that overrule the vote of the people. A law needs to be passed to prevent that. Talk to the people in MA. I'm sure they'll clue you in on that one..dman
Did you advocate a law to ban blacks from certain locations and services too? That was a majority view remember.

[55CrushEm]

I am not a proponent of rewriting the constitution to ban gay marriage. To be honest, it will eventually become acceptable to do such, but not for a while yet. The states should have full control EXCEPT for activists judges that overrule the vote of the people. A law needs to be passed to prevent that. Talk to the people in MA. I'm sure they'll clue you in on that one..dman

Yep....I live in Mass....and even in this, the most liberal state in the country....a vast majority of the people DON'T approve of gay marriage.

But, as you say....our activist Supreme Court demanded that it be allowed....

[55CrushEm]

Did you advocate a law to ban blacks from certain locations and services too? That was a majority view remember.

But it is NO LONGER a majority view.......banning gay marriage IS.

[Spider]

The media, in general, spews anti-war propoganda constantly. The reaction of the key players in the media during and shortly thereafter we caught Zarqawi is a perfect example. Is everything great? Nope, not until the war is over and done with. Come back on us? C'mon. Given todays society's access to the "information" available, you'd be nuts to not call a spade a spade if you were the military. However, the media gets a free pass with convicting the marines in haditha, BEFORE NCIS gets done, let alone an article 32. Then again, if one of our own senators convicts in the press, I guess I should lump his dumb a$$ in with the media pundits......bottom line: lots of anti-war propoganda, innuendos and assumptions that people swallow hook, line and sinker, and assume the media is correct, nothing could be farther from the truth. If they would report, and leave the rest to the reader WITHOUT the anti war crap, they'd be OK in my book...dman

*They demonize the US constantly, when it fact, they are the demons.

I have covered alot of Miles , read alot of news papers , watched TV , listen to Siruis Radio ...... one reoccuring theme .... Not so much anti war as it is Anti Bush and the way the war is being ran ....... I have been deep in the heart of texas , hearing alot of the same grumbling ...... bottom line is this papers and the media are hitting with the truth , I know it is easy to blame the media for all of our misdeeds , but in realty we have to step up to the plate and fix whats wrong , and how can we know whats wrong if we get fed Propaganda 24/7 ?
those are more then just mere troops over there , they are loved ones , family members , do we want to cintinue on making the same mistakes over and over when thier life is on the line ?

[defenseman]

Nothing could be further form the truth. Without the media the "demons" would rule with impunity.

I didn't think there were any of these guys left.

Hell of alot more of us than you know...

The demons rule the roost now, and it's not the government. but we could argue this till the cows come home. The media is , in too many instances borderline un-american and aiding and abedding the enemy from where I sit. Some of them need to be throttled hard as far as I'm concerned. But again, I'll agree to disagree on this point...dman

[defenseman]

[QUOTE=§Pide®]I have covered alot of Miles , read alot of news papers , watched TV , listen to Siruis Radio ...... one reoccuring theme .... Not so much anti war as it is Anti Bush and the way the war is being ran ....... I have been deep in the heart of texas , hearing alot of the same grumbling ...... bottom line is this papers and the media are hitting with the truth , I know it is easy to blame the media for all of our misdeeds , but in realty we have to step up to the plate and fix whats wrong , and how can we know whats wrong if we get fed Propaganda 24/7 ? ]

1) Take the blinders off , it's anti-war, anti-bush,,,it's both.

2)papers HItting the TRUTH??????Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Give US ALL a break. You obviously have been suscribing to publications i have never heard of. I am laughing so hard at this one, I can't even BWaahaa....Hilarious!

3)Blame the media? They're part of the problem. Not all of it. The folks swallow it hook, line, and sinker are the real problem. Blinders on, not really caring , it's easy to just believe the newspaper. They must be right. Yeah, sure..

4)What propoganda you talking about 24/7? It certianly isn't Pro-bush or Pro - war. So exactly what propoganda you talking about? Well I would definitely rethink you position on this one if I were you.

I'd get that hook out of your mutt before it gets too late...dman

[Cito Pelon]

One only needs to read some of the opinions on this message board to see that we live in turbulent times, especially in regards to the U.S. response to Islamic terrorism and its relation to the war in Iraq. The current administration seems to be adamant against a set timetable for pulling out, and is determined to outlast the Iraqi insurgency (and the global Jihadist movement overall) no matter how many years it takes. It seems to be more of a war of attrition and willpower than anything else. A victory using this approach will require years to decades.

What I want to ask of those who are against the Bush admin's approach and especially the ongoing occupation of Iraq is - if you could put, come 2008, whoever you'd wish into power in the White House and/or Congress, and with them a change in policy towards the Middle East, in what other specific way do you see a victory/positive outcome coming about?

Good question. I have to wait and see the campaigns. I don't have a problem with many of the Bush Administration's overall goals in foreign policy. I actually posted late last year that it's too bad a US President is limited to 2 terms, since GWB is finally beginning to learn the ropes. I posted earlier this year that the US should probably keep the big airbase being built outside Baghdad. I don't mind at all a long battle, the big deal is make sure we have Western European support. I stated years and years ago that GWB & Co made a very clever move by enlisting Eastern European powers in this "War on Terrorism". That was one of the slickest moves I've ever seen. We've seen the Russian response to selling F-16's to Poland, and their response to the US support for democracy in Ukraine - the Russians try to dominate Europe through energy supplies.

Security needs allies. Particularly Western European allies. Japan is a big deal also. The balances of power are constantly changing on the planet, the object it seems to me is manage the balances of power. What that means right now is the same as it's been since I was old enough to think - make sure the free world's alliances are stronger than Russia's or China's. Those two have been the trouble-makers on the planet for a long, long time. And gee, guess what? They still are.

Russia and China are constantly stirring up trouble, trying to grab power and influence everywhere they can. To me, this is the bottom line - neutralize Russia and China, make them understand they can't win unless they cooperate with the Democracies. Islam is tied into this, because the Russians and Chinese are trying to use Islam as a destabilizing influence. Which is why I say hang onto that big airbase outside Baghdad.

I got off on a rant there, but to answer the question, I'm gonna have to wait and see how the campaigns play out. There is domestic policy to consider also, and the Republican platform is to me like turning the clock back say about 120 years. These Republican tax policies are so far out of balance it's unbelievable middle-class people bought into it. Let's see - the object is to let really poor people not pay a dime in Fed taxes, let really rich people save billions in Fed taxes, give the middle class a tiny tax break, and then scramble to pay the bills. Criminy. It's unbelievable people buy into that.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You have a hard time keeping up, that's obvious. It's not like it's "new" news or anything.

-------------------------------------------------------------
CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons
Debate Is Growing Within Agency About Legality and Morality of Overseas System Set Up After 9/11

By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 2, 2005; Page A01

The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.

The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.

CONT (http://tinyurl.com/bbqyx)

Top GOP senator says Gitmo hearings might be appropriate
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The chief of Amnesty International USA alleged Sunday that the Guantanamo Bay detention camp is part of a worldwide network of U.S. jails, some of them secret, where prisoners are mistreated and even killed.

CONT (http://tinyurl.com/9skla)


^5

You just keep exposing 55crash as a clueless, uninformed half-wit.

Good work. :thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

This will not wash in the long run. That's like ensuring your "teenage" son or daughter is your "friend".

:oyvey:

Good God, most teenagers I know would recognize the foregoing as a crappy analogy.

By "friends" I mean people who have an interest in helping us.

Winning a war on terrorism requires a lot of quality intelligence - much of it from other countries.

Bush's policies have estranged our friends and would-be friends and have isolated us in the world.

This is clearly counterproductive to the goal of eliminating terrorism.


WILL NOT WORK. There are some enemies that will ALWAYS be your enemy, because, you are who you are.

Perhaps this is true in some instances, but not in this case.

The pentagon study I've posted numerous times (and other studies by intelligence experts) confirms that our present enemies don't "hate us because of our freedom," etc., as the Bushevik propagandists claim. They hate us because of our policies (and who can blame them?)

[mosca]

However, the premise of the thread is a bit scewed imo.
the purpose was simply for me to see what critics of the bush admin. would like to see done as an alternative. i currently have no idea who i plan on supporting in the 2008 election and of course, this is one of only many issues, but i do find it to be of utmost importance. just wanted to see what people would like to see done, in a hypothetical "perfect world" scenario, if you will.

[mosca]

Good question. I have to wait and see the campaigns. I don't have a problem with many of the Bush Administration's overall goals in foreign policy. I actually posted late last year that it's too bad a US President is limited to 2 terms, since GWB is finally beginning to learn the ropes.

i see what you're getting at here... funny, because as of late, i've been of the opinion that all politicians should be limited to one term only. encourages prioritizing policy decisions made for the good of the city/state/country as opposed to basing them off of polls in hopes of attracting future voters for re-election.

To me, this is the bottom line - neutralize Russia and China, make them understand they can't win unless they cooperate with the Democracies. Islam is tied into this, because the Russians and Chinese are trying to use Islam as a destabilizing influence. Which is why I say hang onto that big airbase outside Baghdad.
it's sort of ironic... we used to smugly say that afghanistan was russia's vietnam. i bet the russians are saying that iraq is america's afghanistan these days. just another one of history's cycles.