Graham Lelie trade dead...no suprise

[Crowpointer]

Source: Graham trade proposal shot down
By John Tomase/ Patriots Notebook
Boston Herald Sports Writer

Thursday, June 15, 2006 - Updated: 06:42 AM EST

FOXBORO - The rumor’s been floating around for more than a week now, and on the surface it makes no sense. Would the Patriots really trade tight end Daniel Graham and draft picks as part of a three-way deal to land disgruntled Broncos wideout Ashley Lelie?

The answer, it turns out, is no. According to a league source, the Broncos approached the Patriots with such a proposal, but the Pats said no thanks.

Whereas Graham can catch, block and play tough, the source noted that Lelie is basically a “one-trick pony,” whose specialty is the deep ball. He doesn’t seem remotely like a Patriots kind of player, other than the fact that he plays a position where the team is thin.

The five-year veteran had a career season in 2004, catching 54 balls for 1,084 yards and seven touchdowns. He dropped to 42 catches for 770 yards and single TD last season. He was granted permission to seek a trade following Denver’s acquisition of Javon Walker from Green Bay.

Denver native Graham is one of the best blocking tight ends in football and an occasional wrecking ball in the passing game. He missed his second straight day of minicamp yesterday while continuing to heal from offseason shoulder surgery. He’s entering the final year of his contract and has not yet begun discussions on an extension.

[Garcia Bronco]

"Whereas Graham can catch, block and play tough, the source noted that Lelie is basically a “one-trick pony,” whose specialty is the deep ball. He doesn’t seem remotely like a Patriots kind of player, other than the fact that he plays a position where the team is thin. "


DOH! That's got to hurt.

[Arkansas Bronco]

May hurt but it sure sounds true.

[fontaine]

"Whereas Graham can catch, block and play tough, the source noted that Lelie is basically a “one-trick pony,” whose specialty is the deep ball. He doesn’t seem remotely like a Patriots kind of player, other than the fact that he plays a position where the team is thin. "


DOH! That's got to hurt.

It's nothing new. Some of us have been saying that for a while.

But it's much easier to blame Plummer, the offense, Shanahan, the system, whatever.

[anthonypacino]

We are never gonna get rid of this guy, I guess we can collect the fines from him not showing up and see him go to Buffalo or some foresaken place next year.

[Old Dude]

Darn.

[BroncoInferno]

Whereas Graham can catch, block and play tough, the source noted that Lelie is basically a “one-trick pony,” whose specialty is the deep ball. He doesn’t seem remotely like a Patriots kind of player, other than the fact that he plays a position where the team is thin.

But, but, Taco...It's Plummer's fault! Certainly a genius like Bellichek can see that! ROFL!

Like I've been saying, the Pats know that Lelie is about as bad a fit for their style of offense as you can find. His dreadful at running short routes and making YAC, two hallmarks of NE receivers.

[Man-Goblin]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Actually, the more I think about it the more dumb I feel for actually thinking this thing had even the remotest possibility of going down.

Ashley is trash, and the league knows it. Whack.

[TotallyScrewed]

And "league sources" are wrong continuously; as are those who write about them. Let's just say, I won't give up hope that Shanny will pull off another miracle.

[-Slap-]

Man, if the legendary John Tomase of Patriots Notebook paints such a gloomy picture, we must be screwed.

:pity:

[epicSocialism4tw]

It's Plummer's fault! Certainly a genius like Bellichek can see that



Yeah...Jake is just terrible and doesnt look his way unless a fly route is called ::)

[BroncoInferno]

Yeah...Jake is just terrible and doesnt look his way unless a fly route is called ::)

Let's not forget that pea-brained Shanahan who has no clue how to use a world class talent like Lelie properly.

[Mr Chatterboodamn]

that article is ewwwwwwwwwww

[Man-Goblin]

I can't believe it. It took less than 10 posts to turn into a Plummer vs. Lelie thread. I guess I'll get back to, work or something...

[Taco John]

I don't know why I'm getting bashed for this. I've been saying this was a pipe dream all along.

Plus, I've never said Lelie was anything BUT a deep threat... I'm also not wrong that Plummer doesn't have a very accurate deep arm, and has a tough time taking advantage of the fact that we've got one of the better deep threats in the league.

Lelie is a number two at best who needs a quarterback with skills in order to shine. We drafted one. He's a dumbass for not accepting his fate and putting the league spotlight on himself and exactly what a one dimensional guy he is. But that spotlight doesn't make Plummer any better at throwing the deep ball, so I don't know why I'm getting bashed.

[Taco John]

Let's not forget that pea-brained Shanahan who has no clue how to use a world class talent like Lelie properly.



Says who?

[BroncoInferno]

Says who?

On this point, not you, but several others have made mention of Lelie not being 'used properly'.

[fontaine]

Let's not forget that pea-brained Shanahan who has no clue how to use a world class talent like Lelie properly.

Exactly, Lelie catches everything thrown his way, he could be a great number 1 WR, has the heart of a champion and he would destroy Teddy Bruschi AND Chuck Norris in a bare knuckle boxing fight to the death.

[Taco John]

On this point, not you, but several others have made mention of Lelie not being 'used properly'.



I think Lelie and Plummer are both being used properly. We went 13-3.

[Taco John]

And "league sources" are wrong continuously; as are those who write about them. Let's just say, I won't give up hope that Shanny will pull off another miracle.



Actually, Shanahan's quote on Lelie has consistently been "I'll be suprised if he's not wearing a Broncos uniform come opening day."

[BroncoInferno]

I don't know why I'm getting bashed for this. I've been saying this was a pipe dream all along.

Plus, I've never said Lelie was anything BUT a deep threat... I'm also not wrong that Plummer doesn't have a very accurate deep arm, and has a tough time taking advantage of the fact that we've got one of the better deep threats in the league.

Lelie is a number two at best who needs a quarterback with skills in order to shine. We drafted one. He's a dumbass for not accepting his fate and putting the league spotlight on himself and exactly what a one dimensional guy he is. But that spotlight doesn't make Plummer any better at throwing the deep ball, so I don't know why I'm getting bashed.

In all the years we've debated together, one thing that has become apparent is that you love to throw multiple qualifiers into any argument you make so that no matter what happens, you can say "But I wasn't wrong! I said 'x'...' This issue is no different. You have said within the last few days that Lelie would be a star if he were with a better QB. You said it would be a blunder to let him go to NE. I told you that Lelie was a horrible fit for their offense, and obviously Pioli and Bellichek agree.

[Taco John]

I absolutely will qualify my statements. Unabashedly. I'm not going to say, "So-and-so sucks." I'll say "So-and-so sucks at...." and then qualify it.

You guys can have your tidy little "Lelie sucks" statements. It's not going to change the fact that he's one of the better deep threats in the game. It's also not going to change the fact that Plummer doesn't have the kind of arm to get the most use out of that fact.

You can absolutely move in the absolutist direction, where you say someone sucks, and therefore they absolutely suck at everything. I'm going to continue to qualify my statements with things like facts and data, if it's all the same to you.

[BroncoInferno]

I absolutely will qualify my statements. Unabashedly. I'm not going to say, "So-and-so sucks." I'll say "So-and-so sucks at...." and then qualify it.

You guys can have your tidy little "Lelie sucks" statements. It's not going to change the fact that he's one of the better deep threats in the game. It's also not going to change the fact that Plummer doesn't have the kind of arm to get the most use out of that fact.

You can absolutely move in the absolutist direction, where you say someone sucks, and therefore they absolutely suck at everything. I'm going to continue to qualify my statements with things like facts and data, if it's all the same to you.

I've never said he flat out sucks. I've said certain key areas of his game suck, which is why he'll never be a #1 WR or star. You say he'd be a star if he did not have to play with the likes of Jake Plummer, then qualify your argument with statements of why he's not a star that muddle your argument into something incomprehensible.

[fontaine]

The funny thing is both of you, basically, agree in your assessment of Lelie in that he's only a deep threat!

;D

Too bad, you're both wrong tho. He sucks!
j/k
LOL

[Taco John]

I don't know what you're talking about. My statements are totally comprehensible.

Lelie is a one dimensional deep threat. One of the best deep threats in the league (see his YAC numbers). Plummer doesn't have an accurate deep arm. We'd be able to get more out of Lelie if Plummer was very accurate past 15 yards, or if he was tougher and could catch the underneath stuff. Given that he's never been able to catch the underneath stuff, going all the way back to college, I'm not holding my breath waiting for Lelie to become a #1 WR. Given that Plummer doesn't seem to reliably throw a deep ball, I'm not holding my breath expecting the Plummer to Lelie hook-up to look any more threatening.

Lelie would absolutely be better off if he were playing with a quarterback who had a better deep ball. How can this be denied? Likewise, Plummer would be better off with a player who is tougher underneath. This can't be denied either.

All of these statements are qualified statements. Are you still confused? Should I parse it out in easier to understand language.

Here let me try for you.

Plummer doesn't have an accuarate deep ball.
Lelie is only a deep threat.
Shanahan drafted a quarterback to fix this problem.
He also traded for a WR to give some help too.

Is this easy enough for you?

[Taco John]

Let me know if I need to dumb it down any more for you.

[epicSocialism4tw]

It would take a player of Elway or Favre's calibur to make the most out of Lelie. You have to have a huge arm. Even if a player of that calibur was here to bomb to Lelie, how much more would he be able to do that Jake wasnt able to do for him the year before this last one? I dont think that the difference is enough to think that Lelie would be better served elsewhere to the point where he could be better than Javon Walker.

[-Slap-]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/jeffri_chadiha/08/30/chadiha.safeties/p1_reed.jpg

:sigh:

[BroncoInferno]

I don't know what you're talking about. My statements are totally comprehensible.

Lelie is a one dimensional deep threat. One of the best deep threats in the league (see his YAC numbers). Plummer doesn't have an accurate deep arm. We'd be able to get more out of Lelie if Plummer was very accurate past 15 yards, or if he was tougher and could catch the underneath stuff. Given that he's never been able to catch the underneath stuff, going all the way back to college, I'm not holding my breath waiting for Lelie to become a #1 WR. Given that Plummer doesn't seem to reliably throw a deep ball, I'm not holding my breath expecting the Plummer to Lelie hook-up to look any more threatening.

Lelie would absolutely be better off if he were playing with a quarterback who had a better deep ball. How can this be denied? Likewise, Plummer would be better off with a player who is tougher underneath. This can't be denied either.

All of these statements are qualified statements. Are you still confused? Should I parse it out in easier to understand language.

Here let me try for you.

Plummer doesn't have an accuarate deep ball.
Lelie is only a deep threat.
Shanahan drafted a quarterback to fix this problem.
He also traded for a WR to give some help too.

Is this easy enough for you?

If Lelie goes on to be star, Taco will calim he was right; if he remains what he is, Taco will still be right. I understand your argument perfectly. Thanks for clarifying.

[BroncoInferno]

Let me know if I need to dumb it down any more for you.

Oh no, I understand. Taco John is right no matter what happens, as per usual.

[Taco John]

If Lelie goes on to be star, Taco will calim he was right; if he remains what he is, Taco will still be right. I understand your argument perfectly. Thanks for clarifying.



You're absolutely right. That's because I'm right about Lelie AND I'm right about Plummer. I'm not just making blanket "sucks" statements. I'm qualifying my arguments SO THAT I'm right.

You're welcome.

[Taco John]

Oh no, I understand. Taco John is right no matter what happens, as per usual.

:thanku:

[BroncoInferno]

You're absolutely right. That's because I'm right about Lelie AND I'm right about Plummer. I'm not just making blanket "sucks" statements. I'm qualifying my arguments SO THAT I'm right.

You're welcome.

LOL Well, at least you're honest.

[Taco John]

LOL Well, at least you're honest.



Totally honest. That's the point.

[DenverRunGame]

Cmon u guys know Lelie isnt trash, he was best WR we had last year..
he had to make some crazy catches so Jake doesnt throw another incomplete pass LOL (u guys know that)
JW is tight but im not sold on him yet, hes coming off a major knee injury.
dont get me wrong hes tight, he man has skills.. but cant forget he had Bret throwing him the ball not Plummer....
I been a Lelie fan sence college and loved the draft when we got him
the man has skills gotta give him that....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg2xAGyIYDI

[fontaine]

Cmon u guys know Lelie isnt trash, he was best WR we had last year..
he had to make some crazy catches so Jake doesnt throw another incomplete pass LOL (u guys know that)
JW is tight but im not sold on him yet, hes coming off a major knee injury.
dont get me wrong hes tight, he man has skills.. but cant forget he had Bret throwing him the ball not Plummer....

?

Ashley, is that you?

If it is, get the hell back to camp.

[delany]

Cmon u guys know Lelie isnt trash, he was best WR we had last year..


Put the crackpipe down

[epicSocialism4tw]

I understand Taco's take, but at the same time Taco made no bones about throwing Jake under the bus several times over the course of his tenure here while giving Lelie a pass. I think that that's what BroncoInferno is getting at.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Cmon u guys know Lelie isnt trash, he was best WR we had last year..
he had to make some crazy catches so Jake doesnt throw another incomplete pass LOL (u guys know that)
JW is tight but im not sold on him yet, hes coming off a major knee injury.
dont get me wrong hes tight, he man has skills.. but cant forget he had Bret throwing him the ball not Plummer....
I been a Lelie fan sence college and loved the draft when we got him
the man has skills gotta give him that....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg2xAGyIYDI

Welcome to the Mane DRG. You just stepped in sh** though. These guys must have 10K post between them on this argument. :)

[Taco John]

I understand Taco's take, but at the same time Taco made no bones about throwing Jake under the bus several times over the course of his tenure here while giving Lelie a pass. I think that that's what BroncoInferno is getting at.



Yeah, well... That's what happens when you throw 20 interceptions in a season... The benefit of a doubt evaporates a little. He's much better now that he's playing within the box that Shanahan has put him in. But let me say up front: I can't wait to see Shanahan's offense opened up once again.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Yeah, well... That's what happens when you throw 20 interceptions in a season... The benefit of a doubt evaporates a little. He's much better now that he's playing within the box that Shanahan has put him in. But let me say up front: I can't wait to see Shanahan's offense opened up once again.

You can blame the skill players for this as well. Jake has had mediocre to poor talent at every skill position except #1 WR, where Rod is as old as them there hills. It's not all Jake's fault that the playbook is scaled down. That's a misconception led by the "the QB has to be Elway" crowd.

[fontaine]

Yeah, well... That's what happens when you throw 20 interceptions in a season... The benefit of a doubt evaporates a little. He's much better now that he's playing within the box that Shanahan has put him in. But let me say up front: I can't wait to see Shanahan's offense opened up once again.

Hey every explosive offense has to have at least one or two big time studs like Gates/LT, Harrison/Wayne/Edge, Gonzo/Priest etc.

What did you expect from Lelie, no TE, no 3rd WR?

Our offense went back to the stone ages when we lost Portis/Sharpe/Eddie Mac in just a few seasons.

[bronco militia]

It's not all Jake's fault that the playbook is scaled down. That's a misconception led by the "the QB has to be Elway" crowd.

lol....yeah, it's Lelie's fault Jake's only bread and butter play is the bootleg


"the QB has to be Elway" crowd would also remind the masses that Elway took this team to three Superbowls with WR's far less talented then Lelie....

[Taco John]

You can blame the skill players for this as well. Jake has had mediocre to poor talent at every skill position except #1 WR, where Rod is as old as them there hills. It's not all Jake's fault that the playbook is scaled down. That's a misconception led by the "the QB has to be Elway" crowd.



Well, I guess we've got to work with what we have. And currently, that's a team capable of 13-3.

[epicSocialism4tw]

lol....yeah, it's Lelie's fault Jake's only bread and butter play is the bootleg


"the QB has to be Elway" crowd would also remind the masses that Elway took this team to three Superbowls with WR's far less talented then Lelie....


..and there you have it.

This is exactly the attitude that I was talking about. Elway was the best QB ever. The great ones make their team better. Even Elway couldnt win the big one without some help at the skill positions though. Sharpe, TD, Rod Smith, Eddie Mac, Howard Griffith, etc. On top of that, Elway had possibly the greatest offensive line in NFL history on that team.

Jake is not Elway, but I would say that he is in the top quarter of NFL QB's and that's not a bad place to be these days.

Is there any doubt that Jake would also be better served with some talent?

In fact, Jake's statistics have been pretty sound while he has been a Bronco. I would love to see what he could have done with TD, Sharpe, young Smith, Eddie Mac, Howard Griffith, and the best Oline in the league.

[Champ4prez]

jake didnt have nothin to work with besides Rod..now that we have 2 receivers who arent scared to go over the middle, jake will beast out..all the jake haters out there dont know what the hell their talkin about...i bet you guys were all up on his nut sack when he was winning all those games last year no?

[Taco John]

Jake is not Elway, but I would say that he is in the top quarter of NFL QB's and that's not a bad place to be these days.



Eh... I'd argue that Jake isn't really in the top quarter of NFL QBs, but benefits from Shanahan's game planning. I think we could get similar production out of plenty of quarterbacks out there. If Jake had gone to Chicago, he'd be the joke of the league right about now, maybe even out of the league altogether (ala Kordell)

[epicSocialism4tw]

Eh... I'd argue that Jake isn't really in the top quarter of NFL QBs, but benefits from Shanahan's game planning. I think we could get similar production out of plenty of quarterbacks out there. If Jake had gone to Chicago, he'd be the joke of the league right about now, maybe even out of the league altogether (ala Kordell)

That's as abstract of a speculation as the idea that Lelie will flourish outside of Denver. We all can see how well the latter abstraction has turned out. Lelie's value is so poor that I have a hard time believing that he will ever really turn out to be more than a 500-700 yd receiver.

You cant say that Jake would have been Kordell Stewart in Chicago...how would you know that? There is as much offensive talent there as there has been for him in Denver.

[Barry Ramey]

I could have sworn Plummer was the QB for the Cards when they won their first playoff game, on the road no less, in like 40-50 years? I think ridiculous to say Plummer is a bad QB.

I've been down on Lelie for a couple years now. He makes little impact in games. No where near the impact Rod makes since Rod will catch deep, slant, sideline, comebacks, and over the middle catches. Lelie? Let's see, the deep and....

If the Broncos biggest reason to draft a stronger armed QB was to make Lelie look better, then they don't have a clue and have hugely overestimated Lelie's importance. Heck, even the Pats don't want him and they need WR's.

[Taco John]

You cant say that Jake would have been Kordell Stewart in Chicago...how would you know that? There is as much offensive talent there as there has been for him in Denver.


That's why I said that I'd make the argument. You obvioulsy can't prove something that didn't happen. But you can make an argument for it.

In any case, Shanahan has made moves to replace Plummer, despite him having several years left on his contract. We could argue about this forever, but it won't change the fact that the clock is ticking on the guy.

[Arkansas Bronco]

No we drafted a QB with a stronger arm because he has the tools to be much better then Jake.

[epicSocialism4tw]

That's why I said that I'd make the argument. You obvioulsy can't prove something that didn't happen. But you can make an argument for it.

In any case, Shanahan has made moves to replace Plummer, despite him having several years left on his contract. We could argue about this forever, but it won't change the fact that the clock is ticking on the guy.

That doesnt have any relevance to the discussion at hand, which was about why Lelie reduced Plummer's effectiveness. Lelie is a mediocre player. It is his own fault that he has a severe case of the drops and refuses to catch balls over the middle.

[Taco John]

That doesnt have any relevance to the discussion at hand, which was about why Lelie reduced Plummer's effectiveness.


Well, actually it does. Plummer's effectiveness is what made Shanahan decide to move up the draft to take a quarterback despite a 13-3 record and a long term contract, instead of a Defensive End or Defensive Tackle, which everyone here universally agrees we need.

Keep in mind that trading Lelie isn't Shanahan's idea. Ashley is trying to force his hand on that. Nobody had to force his hand to bring in a young new gunslinger.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well, actually it does. Plummer's effectiveness is what made Shanahan decide to move up the draft to take a quarterback despite a 13-3 record and a long term contract, instead of a Defensive End or Defensive Tackle, which everyone here universally agrees we need.
Keep in mind that trading Lelie isn't Shanahan's idea. Ashley is trying to force his hand on that. Nobody had to force his hand to bring in a young new gunslinger.

No, but Shanny did bring in Javon Walker to take Lelie's spot and draft two WR's. That seems like a much more telling set of events regarding this subject. Shanny and the BBT were in effect saying that Lelie wasnt going to be a #1 and right now, wasnt even good enough to be #2. Jake's still got his spot. Lelie got bumped down the depth chart when Javon showed up.

[-Slap-]

That's as abstract of a speculation as the idea that Lelie will flourish outside of Denver. We all can see how well the latter abstraction has turned out. Lelie's value is so poor that I have a hard time believing that he will ever really turn out to be more than a 500-700 yd receiver.

Year Team G GS Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ 1st
2002 Den 16 1 35 525 15.0 48 2 9 3 24
2003 Den 16 10 37 628 17.0 60 2 11 5 25
2004 Den 16 16 54 1084 20.1 58 7 21 5 40
2005 Den 16 13 42 770 18.3 56 1 12 5 30
TOTAL 64 40 168 3007 17.9 60 12 53 18 119

[Taco John]

No, but Shanny did bring in Javon Walker to take Lelie's spot and draft two WR's. That seems like a much more telling set of events regarding this subject.

Not really. Shanahan doesn't seem to really want to part with Lelie. I think it's a fallacy to say he brought him in to take Lelie's spot. I think it's accurate to say he wants Walker to push Lelie, but ultimately, Shanahan has made the statements that he feels we're a better team with Lelie than without him.

Bringing in more receivers was definitely the right thing to do. Rod isn't going to last forever.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Not really. Shanahan doesn't seem to really want to part with Lelie. I think it's a fallacy to say he brought him in to take Lelie's spot. I think it's accurate to say he wants Walker to push Lelie, but ultimately, Shanahan has made the statements that he feels we're a better team with Lelie than without him.
Bringing in more receivers was definitely the right thing to do. Rod isn't going to last forever.

No doubt, but its obvious that Javon has the skill set and the production to be the #1. Lelie knew this. If he thought that the scenario was there for him to move into the #1, Im sure that he wouldnt have thrown his little hissy fit.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Year Team G GS Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ 1st
2002 Den 16 1 35 525 15.0 48 2 9 3 24
2003 Den 16 10 37 628 17.0 60 2 11 5 25
2004 Den 16 16 54 1084 20.1 58 7 21 5 40
2005 Den 16 13 42 770 18.3 56 1 12 5 30
TOTAL 64 40 168 3007 17.9 60 12 53 18 119

Sure, Slap. I said something to that effect earlier in the thread. Jake Plummer threw the ball to him that season too.

[Taco John]

No doubt, but its obvious that Javon has the skill set and the production to be the #1. Lelie knew this. If he thought that the scenario was there for him to move into the #1, Im sure that he wouldnt have thrown his little hissy fit.


Well sure. Like I say, I've never seen Lelie as anything more than a number two. His expectations to be a #1 are pretty misplaced, especially if he's not willing to compete for it. But that's beside the point. You said that Walker was brought in to replace Lelie, when that's not an accurate statement. Shanahan has said time and again that he'd be suprised if Lelie was anywhere but in Denver come opening day.

[Florida_Bronco]

That doesnt have any relevance to the discussion at hand, which was about why Lelie reduced Plummer's effectiveness. Lelie is a mediocre player. It is his own fault that he has a severe case of the drops and refuses to catch balls over the middle.

In my opinion, this post here shows how people's hate of Lelie makes it sound like he is the worst player in the NFL. Lelie does NOT have any case of the drops, in fact he has likely the best natural hands on this team.

You guys can hate Lelie if you want, he certainly deserves it, but don't make false claims about him having a case of the dropsies.

[PatsWin2002]

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7003921980

Belichick To Press: We Won't Trade Graham

June 15, 2006 1:01 p.m. EST

Christopher Cornell - All Headline News Contributor
Foxboro, MA (AHN) - New England Partiots' head coach, Bill Belichick, was tired of hearing the rumors. Thursday, he decided to clear the air himself on the rumored trade of tight end Daniel Graham to Denver.

Belichick told ESPN.com Thursday before the beginning of the Patriots' final day of mini-camp that there is no truth to any of the rumors.

"We have not had a single discussion about trading Daniel Graham," Belichick said. "We will not trade Daniel Graham this year. End of story."

Several newspapers have reported that the Patriots were contemplating sending Graham to the Denver Broncos in a three team deal that would send the Broncos' disgruntled wide receiver, Ashlie Lelie out of Denver. Lelie became dissatisfied with his position in Denver after the team traded for former Packer receiver, Javon Walker.

The trade would make sense on the one hand because Graham is in the final year of his contract and will become an unrestricted free agent after this season. On the other hand, Graham is one of only two tight ends that the Patriots have on their current roster. The Patriots also wouldn't want to deal away an important player to a conference rival.

The Broncos beat the Patriots last year in the 2005 playoffs to get to the AFC Championship game. They are slated to play each other in the third game of the season on September 24.

[bronco militia]

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7003921980

Belichick To Press: We Won't Trade Graham



Belichick told ESPN.com Thursday before the beginning of the Patriots' final day of mini-camp that there is no truth to any of the rumors.

"We have not had a single discussion about trading Daniel Graham," Belichick said. "We will not trade Daniel Graham this year. End of story."

.


lol....for those that pay for scouts inc, I'd ask for my money back.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well sure. Like I say, I've never seen Lelie as anything more than a number two. His expectations to be a #1 are pretty misplaced, especially if he's not willing to compete for it. But that's beside the point. You said that Walker was brought in to replace Lelie, when that's not an accurate statement. Shanahan has said time and again that he'd be suprised if Lelie was anywhere but in Denver come opening day.

It is an accurate statement. No matter how you try to convolute it, Lelie was drafted in the first round and brought in to be Rod Smith's replacement as the number one receiver. It didnt work out. So, on to plan B. Plan B is Javon Walker at #1.

[Man-Goblin]

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7003921980

Belichick To Press: We Won't Trade Graham



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Oh well. Scouts Inc. just stated that the Broncos have had discussions about having discussions about signing Daniel Graham as a free agent next off season. Stay tuned....

[epicSocialism4tw]

In my opinion, this post here shows how people's hate of Lelie makes it sound like he is the worst player in the NFL. Lelie does NOT have any case of the drops, in fact he has likely the best natural hands on this team.

You guys can hate Lelie if you want, he certainly deserves it, but don't make false claims about him having a case of the dropsies.

"Mediocre" does not mean the worst player in the NFL. It means that he is average in comparison to other receivers when you look at his total package. That's not Jake Plummer's fault. That is my point.

And...if you think that Lelie has better hands than Rod, you're nuts. If you think that Lelie's career hasnt been plagued by drops and inconsistencies, then you must not have seen many Bronco games over the past three seasons.

[bronco militia]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Oh well. Scouts Inc. just stated that the Broncos have had discussions about having discussions about signing Daniel Graham as a free agent next off season. Stay tuned....

lol

[kamakazi_kal]

"Whereas Graham can catch, block and play tough, the source noted that Lelie is basically a “one-trick pony,” whose specialty is the deep ball. He doesn’t seem remotely like a Patriots kind of player, other than the fact that he plays a position where the team is thin. "


DOH! That's got to hurt.

run #3 pony and run deep........ we would be a passing machine with rod, walker and leile

[Man-Goblin]

run #3 pony and run deep........ we would be a passing machine with rod, walker and leile

and Plummer!

[orinjkrush]

I don't know what you're talking about. My statements are totally comprehensible.

Lelie is a one dimensional deep threat. One of the best deep threats in the league (see his YAC numbers). Plummer doesn't have an accurate deep arm. We'd be able to get more out of Lelie if Plummer was very accurate past 15 yards, or if he was tougher and could catch the underneath stuff. Given that he's never been able to catch the underneath stuff, going all the way back to college, I'm not holding my breath waiting for Lelie to become a #1 WR. Given that Plummer doesn't seem to reliably throw a deep ball, I'm not holding my breath expecting the Plummer to Lelie hook-up to look any more threatening.

Lelie would absolutely be better off if he were playing with a quarterback who had a better deep ball. How can this be denied? Likewise, Plummer would be better off with a player who is tougher underneath. This can't be denied either.

All of these statements are qualified statements. Are you still confused? Should I parse it out in easier to understand language.

Here let me try for you.

Plummer doesn't have an accuarate deep ball.
Lelie is only a deep threat.
Shanahan drafted a quarterback to fix this problem.
He also traded for a WR to give some help too.

Is this easy enough for you?


amen, bro. amen.

[Florida_Bronco]

And...if you think that Lelie has better hands than Rod, you're nuts. If you think that Lelie's career hasnt been plagued by drops and inconsistencies, then you must not have seen many Bronco games over the past three seasons.

Lelie does have better natural hands then Rod. Rod had a pretty big problem with the drops earlier in his career, and he's overcome that with hard work, but he doesn't have the greatest natural hands and still drops a few every now and then.

I've never personally seen Lelie have what I'd call a case of the dropsies (every receiver will drop a ball here and there) and he has great natural hands. Has he been inconsistent? Now that I could agree with, but he doesn't drop many passes at all.

[kamakazi_kal]

and Plummer!

and plummer..... i dont know...jake cant throw a 60 yard strike but not many QB's can, the ball cant be on the money everytime i think leile has made some great catches from some questionable balls but it tells me alot about his want for the ball when he wont go over the middle, leile is run deep catch the ball and fall down or get tackled....... you want to be #1 leile .... fight for it, get in camp show them you can be the "complete" reciever they think javon is...... i personally dont think he can do it but lets call it like it is ..... #85 run deep, catch the ball move the chains and collect your fat paycheck you would think getting a ring would be the most important but it seem letters typed on paper with a #1 next to it is:thumbsup:

[BroncoInferno]

amen, bro. amen.

I don't disagree with his post, but if you read the majority of what Taco posts on the subject the brunt of his ciritcism goes to Jake, he makes statements that Lelie could be a star if Jake were not holding him back, etc. Then, just to cover his tracks, he'll occasionally throw a light critism Lelie's way so, no matter the final verdict, he can claim he was right. If Lelie becomes a star, he was right. If he remains as is, he's still right. He does this kind of thing in practially every argument I've ever seen him engaged in going back to the old DPO days. He's never been wrong as far as he is concerned.

[Popps]

"Whereas Graham can catch, block and play tough, the source noted that Lelie is basically a “one-trick pony,” whose specialty is the deep ball. He doesn’t seem remotely like a Patriots kind of player, other than the fact that he plays a position where the team is thin. "


DOH! That's got to hurt.

It's all Shanahan's fault.

[DrFate]

Today, Taco John says:
Like I say, I've never seen Lelie as anything more than a number two.
On 02-08-2006 (post #382, thread: 'Ashley Lelie Trade Rumors') I said:
I just don't see Lelie having 2nd round value around the league with his numbers.
Taco John replied(post #385, same thread):

The thing that you don't understand is that you are in the minority in your evaluation of both Plummer and Lelie. The rest of the league from the outside looking in see Lelie as a great talent who is being held back by the Broncos commitment to Plummer.
Care to reconcile the two comments (in light of your current discussion with BroncoInferno (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=93))?

[BroncoInferno]

Today, Taco John says:

On 02-08-2006 (post #382, thread: 'Ashley Lelie Trade Rumors) I said:

Taco John replied(post #385, same thread):


Care to reconcile the two comments?

Oh, this should be good. Should be fun watching Waffle John's attempt to twist out of this one ;D

[Dudeskey]

Man, **** Ashley. If he really wanted to be starting WR, he'd be in training camp/ OTA's trying to show Shanny & Dinger something. He's only driving his value down by sitting on his ass and accumilating rust.

[cutthemdown]

have faith my brothers. Shanny and Sundquist will find somewhere for poor lelie and get something out of it. SO it won't be Graham! who cares really he would have been nice but anyone who has been watching this yr unfold has figured out that situations are very fluid. Changing all the time from this player to that player. All yr we are getting Carter nope, we are getting Abrahms nope, we are getting TO nope, we are getting Jammal Lewis nope. Finally they hit and got Javon Walker and did some nice things in draft. Seriously though Broncos will keep slugging away on the roster until training camp. I'm sure Lelie will find his way out of town.

[BroncoInferno]

Today, Taco John says:

On 02-08-2006 (post #382, thread: 'Ashley Lelie Trade Rumors) I said:

Taco John replied(post #385, same thread):

Care to reconcile the two comments (in light of your current discussion with BroncoInferno (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=93))?

At the very least he's got to admit he was wrong re: the league's perception of Lelie and what teams think he's worth.

[DrFate]

At the very least he's got to admit he was wrong re: the league's perception of Lelie and what teams think he's worth.

I would not encourage you to hold your breath.:-X

[BroncoInferno]

I would not encourage you to hold your breath.:-X

Yeah, I'm sure he'll dig out a qualifier somewhere to cover himself.

[BroncoMan4ever]

And "league sources" are wrong continuously; as are those who write about them. Let's just say, I won't give up hope that Shanny will pull off another miracle.

Shanny loves to rape teams with stupid coaching staffs and front offices, but with NE he is going to try and steal from a front office and coaching staff almost as good as his. That would be awesome if Shanny could pull that off.

Also, Shanny will wait until another teams WR spot gets injured and then ship one trick pony out.

[watermock]

It never fails to amuse me that the media keeps saying Lelie became upset because we traded for Walker. Lelie was whining BEFORE the draft. In fact, he probably added fuel to the Walker deal and the reason we took two wr and Chef, the pass catching TE. We never would of spent 4 picks on recievers otherwise, so in that regard, he dug his own grave. I'm so baffled with his behavior. All he had to do was come out and play hard in his contract year. Now he's percieved as a whiner and quitter.

One trick pony indeed.

Thats a stand alone statement. We should ship his sissy ass to a perrenial bottom feeder in the NFC. I don't give a ****. First start fining his ass and when some WR pulls up lame, pounce on their bad fortune. We have plenty of recievers, they are just green, like LELIE. Ha!

[Taco John]

At the very least he's got to admit he was wrong re: the league's perception of Lelie and what teams think he's worth.

I still believe that Lelie is worth a second round pick, but by not showing up to camp, he's hurt his trade value rather than helped it. He's put the Broncos in the bargaining position that makes it easy for teams to devalue his worth and try to talk the Broncos down from their demands.

I guess we'll have to see. Right now there are supposedly 6 teams who are interested. I doubt any of them are willing to part with a second round draft pick at this point though. I think several teams would just as soon wait out the year and try to pick him up via free agency than give up a pick for him. In any case, the Broncos don't appear to want to part with him for anything below a third rounder at best... And it's questionable whether they even want to do that.

I personally still believe he's worth at least a second rounder meaning that he's more valuable to us on our roster *this season* than a third round future pick that may never amount to anything. I still don't think he's ever going to amount to anything but a number two for us. But as a deep threat, I think he's a valuable number two.

[Taco John]

It never fails to amuse me that the media keeps saying Lelie became upset because we traded for Walker. Lelie was whining BEFORE the draft.


No he wasn't. The first I remember Lelie saying anything about it was AFTER the draft. There was plenty of rumors going around that the Broncos were mentioning his name in talks with other teams, but I don't recall Lelie commenting on this at all prior to the draft.

[watermock]

What do you expect Billichick to say? Of course there have been feelers, you don't acknowlege it, it's insulting the player. It's like the dreaded "vote of confidence", a sure sign the Grim Reaper or the Turk is lurking. One Trick Pony's agent has been given permission to seek a trade and GM's around the league are stampeding and trampling over themselves in a bidding frenzy.

The worst lie is lying to oneself. The tribe has spoken.

[watermock]

I guess we'll have to see. Right now there are supposedly 6 teams who are interested. I doubt any of them are willing to part with a second round draft pick at this point though. I think several teams would just as soon wait out the year and try to pick him up via free agency than give up a pick for him. In any case, the Broncos don't appear to want to part with him for anything below a third rounder at best... And it's questionable whether they even want to do that.


Assuming he becomes all world, after this year for another team, it will take awhile, 2008 draft, but we would probably get equal compensation of a 4th rounder anyway, possibly a 3rd.

[watermock]

No he wasn't. The first I remember Lelie saying anything about it was AFTER the draft. There was plenty of rumors going around that the Broncos were mentioning his name in talks with other teams, but I don't recall Lelie commenting on this at all prior to the draft.

That's not true. I can't provide a link, but that came out of Arizona when he was working out with Walker. At that point he was described as disgrunted and didn't want to play in Denver because he wasn't being used properly.

Yes, after the draft, he blew up publicly.

[BroncoInferno]

No he wasn't. The first I remember Lelie saying anything about it was AFTER the draft. There was plenty of rumors going around that the Broncos were mentioning his name in talks with other teams, but I don't recall Lelie commenting on this at all prior to the draft.

That's incorrect. They gave his agent permission to seek a trade before the draft. It escalated after draft weekend. Teams did not want to give up quality value even before Lelie went nuts. So, you were dead wrong when you said:

Originally Posted by Taco John
The thing that you don't understand is that you are in the minority in your evaluation of both Plummer and Lelie. The rest of the league from the outside looking in see Lelie as a great talent who is being held back by the Broncos commitment to Plummer.

[DrFate]

I certainly wasn't in the room, but I thought the reports were Lelie became unhappy when the TO->Denver rumors started. There was a report that he want to Shanahan and said he didn't want the Broncos pursuing TO, that he wanted to be the #1. Wasn't that reported?

And it escalated after the Walker trade (as BroncoInferno said above)

[sirhcyennek81]

Lelie would give denver a dangerous 3 wide receiver set, but he would prefer to dick around with a team that might not contend, thats his business. Denver never won a superbowl by having a passhappy offense all season. 4 years in denver and lelie does not know that?

:Broncos:

[epicSocialism4tw]

I still believe that Lelie is worth a second round pick, but by not showing up to camp, he's hurt his trade value rather than helped it. He's put the Broncos in the bargaining position that makes it easy for teams to devalue his worth and try to talk the Broncos down from their demands.

I guess we'll have to see. Right now there are supposedly 6 teams who are interested. I doubt any of them are willing to part with a second round draft pick at this point though. I think several teams would just as soon wait out the year and try to pick him up via free agency than give up a pick for him. In any case, the Broncos don't appear to want to part with him for anything below a third rounder at best... And it's questionable whether they even want to do that.

I personally still believe he's worth at least a second rounder meaning that he's more valuable to us on our roster *this season* than a third round future pick that may never amount to anything. I still don't think he's ever going to amount to anything but a number two for us. But as a deep threat, I think he's a valuable number two.

Now, you're not being truthful. How can anyone in their right mind think that Lelie is worth a 2nd rounder when they couldnt get the TE stocked Pats to part with Dan Graham when they have a desperate need for a WR?

[bronco militia]

No he wasn't. The first I remember Lelie saying anything about it was AFTER the draft. There was plenty of rumors going around that the Broncos were mentioning his name in talks with other teams, but I don't recall Lelie commenting on this at all prior to the draft.

from kkfl:

49ers | Team rejected trade involving Lelie Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:02:42 -0700

Matt Maiocco, of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, reports the San Francisco 49ers rejected a trade with the Denver Broncos that involved Broncos WR Ashley Lelie. The Broncos were shopping Lelie for a second-round pick. 49ers vice president of player personnel Scot McCloughan said, "He does have some talent. He's more of a vertical guy, outside the numbers, and can stretch the field, but we had some issues with other things. (I'm) not saying he wouldn't fit in, but ... what kind of football player are we going to have when it's said and done?" He said the team would be interested if the Broncos' asking price drops dramatically

[Taco John]

Now, you're not being truthful. How can anyone in their right mind think that Lelie is worth a 2nd rounder when they couldnt get the TE stocked Pats to part with Dan Graham when they have a desperate need for a WR?

...


I personally still believe he's worth at least a second rounder meaning that he's more valuable to us on our roster *this season* than a third round future pick that may never amount to anything. I still don't think he's ever going to amount to anything but a number two for us. But as a deep threat, I think he's a valuable number two.

He's obviously worth something if the rumors are true that there are six teams lingering around hoping the Broncos will acquiesce and lower their asking price.

[TexanBob]

He doesn’t seem remotely like a Patriots kind of player, other than the fact that he plays a position where the team is thin.


Props to whoever said basically the same thing on the Rumor thread.

[epicSocialism4tw]

...



He's obviously worth something if the rumors are true that there are six teams lingering around hoping the Broncos will acquiesce and lower their asking price.

"Something" could be a 4th round draft pick, which would render Lelie a complete bust from Denver's perspective.

[Taco John]

You seriously think the Broncos are going to part with Lelie for a fourth rounder?

[Hulamau]

I absolutely will qualify my statements. Unabashedly. I'm not going to say, "So-and-so sucks." I'll say "So-and-so sucks at...." and then qualify it.

You guys can have your tidy little "Lelie sucks" statements. It's not going to change the fact that he's one of the better deep threats in the game. It's also not going to change the fact that Plummer doesn't have the kind of arm to get the most use out of that fact.

You can absolutely move in the absolutist direction, where you say someone sucks, and therefore they absolutely suck at everything. I'm going to continue to qualify my statements with things like facts and data, if it's all the same to you.


Amen Taco,

We get some two-bit writer from Boston who hears from a "league source" (aka some specualtion in a chat room) that Lelie is only a "one dimensional deep threat" simply because that is precisely ONLY how he was used for 4 years, and its automatically a bonifde fact.

I'm constantly amazed by the folks that can only see this stuff in black and white, either "Plummer is the worst QB in the league" or "Lelie sucks donkey d**ks" and should have his skin removed from his body and be thrown on a fire ant hill!

Of course, Ash brought a lot of these kinds of innuendo and misconceptions on himself by making a piss poor decision about how to express his frustration.

However, the fact that Lelie is capable of handling a larger role than he has been ASSIGNED to carry out for us so far, is precisely what his argument and conviction is about!

There is no argument that superfically it 'appears' he is a one trick pony, but that is simply because he's only been asked to ride One pony! If he had been given a realistic shot at playing a larger role with lot of shorts, slants and accross the middle stuff the past couple of years AND then failed at it, the writer's point would have merit, but the opposite, in fact, is true.

The few times, as in the second Oakland game last year, in which Ash was featured from the outset in the kind of #1 WR role, he only excelled. Period ... go watch the tape!

He isnt going to suddenly run over in mid snap and knock Rod down and take his routes to prove he can do more for God sake!

And this so-called revealing stat all these know-nothing spoirts writers quote when they say "he had 1100 yards on 54 catchs and lead the league in YPC in 04 but regressed to only 780 yard and 1 TD last year on 42 catches" as if that was all his doing, is bogus logic.

Kubiak was the first to admit that he himself was the one as much as anyone behind Lelie's drop in numbers, which is precisely why we have Lelie demanding a trade now.

A large part of the reason for the changes in offensive game planning last year was to MINIMIZE Plummer's chances to FUBAR the game ... and that's a cold hard fact. Someone had to take the hit on the reduced long game and general reduction in second and third option last ditch pass plays that forced so many INTs the year before, and that was going to be Lelie, but that doesnt reflect on Lelies capability to handle a larger role when used more widely, which understandably isnt going to happen as long as a healthy Rod is still here.

Its not anyone's 'fault', its just the way things are, and the coaches made a wise decison for the team last year considering the mix of talent they had to work with.

Plummer's biggest strengths simply don't coincide with the role Lelie was being asked to perform here. But that doesnt mean Lelie can't play a more flexible and wide open WR position as he did in college and the few times we've given him the shot in the last two years.

Nor does it imply Plummer is the worst QB in the league and should be dumped right away for Culter.

I realize the emotional desire to hate Lelie to make his leaving the team a sweeter feeling is strong, and that is what is behind a lot of this 'black and white' BS.

Lelie should be judged on how well he handled HIS assignment and role ( and both Shanny and Kubes said Ash did everything they asked of him well last year, with Kubes even saying it was clearly his best year even though his numbers were down as a result of the refocus of the offense to minimize mistakes),

Trying to compare what Lelie is capable of based on comparing his numbers in a scaleld back role to someone on another team as a #1 WR who is getting far more passes thrown to them, and a far greater percentage of shorter more catchable passes at that, is ludicrous.

But making that kind of analysis is simply too much work, and most folks seem far more comfortable just hopping on the latest bandwagon which is "Lelie sucks".

Then you get one or two ESPN guys to repeat that assumption and it quickly becomes fact around the league by other commentators with equally shallow assessments of the situation.

Anyway, I'm sick of the whole deal and cant wait until he's gone, hopefully to a team that will appreciate and use his talents, and if so then we can all sit back down the road and yack in hindsight about what might have been.

The one thing I know about both Shanahan AND Belichek is that they dont often conduct trade negotiations through the media, and this article sounds more like a Boston sports writer trying to fill in an assignment while trying to support his guy in Graham, and in the process may be saying as much what he hopes happens, and not necesasrily anything definitive from the Pats.

I dont have any problem with anyone valuing Graham more than Lelie at this juncture of their careers, but to claim Lelie is strictly a 'one trick pony' reflects the kind of short-sighted lack of understanding that is described above.

[epicSocialism4tw]

You seriously think the Broncos are going to part with Lelie for a fourth rounder?

No, but they certainly will not get a second for him. I think that Lelie will play for Denver this season, and we'll wave bye bye to the little boy that could have been a man as he rides off into the free-agent sunset.

[Taco John]

No, but they certainly will not get a second for him. I think that Lelie will play for Denver this season, and we'll wave bye bye to the little boy that could have been a man as he rides off into the free-agent sunset.


I wouldn't be suprised to see us franchise or transition tag him...

[watermock]

Screw that, it will take two years, but we will get compensation in the 08 draft. That sounds like forever, but it likely will be a 4 rounder anyway. Shanahan should just concentrate on this years team and let Sunquist and the One Trick Pony's agent haggle. Like he said at the "voluntary" workouts where everyone was there sans Lilly, you can't worry about things you can't control.

[BroncoInferno]

...



He's obviously worth something if the rumors are true that there are six teams lingering around hoping the Broncos will acquiesce and lower their asking price.

Yep. If we lower our price to what they feel are more reasonable terms (i.e. not a 2nd or even 3rd round draft pick).

Why can't you just admit you were wrong when you said:


The thing that you don't understand is that you are in the minority in your evaluation of both Plummer and Lelie. The rest of the league from the outside looking in see Lelie as a great talent who is being held back by the Broncos commitment to Plummer.

That clearly isn't true. Seriously, it's like a complex with you or something.

[bronco militia]

You seriously think the Broncos are going to part with Lelie for a fourth rounder?


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=42299

During the NFL draft last month, the Broncos offered Lelie
to the Houston Texans and his former offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak in return for the first pick in the fourth round.

:)

[Barry Ramey]

Yep, I remember Lelie not attending workouts with the other players and doing his own thing in Arizona, which is a rare thing for the Broncos. I

[Barry Ramey]

Yep, I remember Lelie not attending workouts with the other players well before the draft and doing his own thing in Arizona, which is a rare thing for the Broncos. I remember Portis doing the same thing and he didn't stay around too long.

[BroncoInferno]

I dont have any problem with anyone valuing Graham more than Lelie at this juncture of their careers, but to claim Lelie is strictly a 'one trick pony' reflects the kind of short-sighted lack of understanding that is described above.

The idea that more would not have been asked of him if he were capable and had the confidence of the coaches to do more displays the kind of blind homerism for an individual player that totally strips away one's ability to assess a situation with anything even resembling objectivity.

[Taco John]

Yep. If we lower our price to what they feel are more reasonable terms (i.e. not a 2nd or even 3rd round draft pick).

Why can't you just admit you were wrong when you said:

That clearly isn't true. Seriously, it's like a complex with you or something.


Because I don't know that I was wrong. Teams don't start out by offering top value for players who are holding out when they can wait a year and try to get him for free. It's not until they find themselves in a desperate situation that they start moving up the value chart.

And again, I don't think Lelie has done anything to help his trade value. I think he's only worked to diminish it. When I said that (in February), the situation was much different than it is right now.

In any case, if there are seriously six teams looking into him, I don't think the Broncos are going to move from their demands for second round value. Do you?

[Hulamau]

That's incorrect. They gave his agent permission to seek a trade before the draft. It escalated after draft weekend. Teams did not want to give up quality value even before Lelie went nuts. So, you were dead wrong when you said:

Originally Posted by Taco John
The thing that you don't understand is that you are in the minority in your evaluation of both Plummer and Lelie. The rest of the league from the outside looking in see Lelie as a great talent who is being held back by the Broncos commitment to Plummer.


You are wrong on this one BI, and Taco is right, Lelie didn't utter a peep before the draft in public. Yes, through his agent he quitely expressed his desire to be traded before the draft and got permision to seek a trade for a high roudn pick, but how do you know the totally spectualtive lack of interest by other teams wasnt as much them laying down bargaining chips against Shanny who was asking for a high #2 pick in the 06 draft, which was never going to fly to begin with?

Shanny wasn't about the let Lelie go until he had Walker on board, at the very least, which didnt happen until the second round which is awfully late for teams to suddenly make a decision when they knew they could get him for cheaper after the draft.

Shanny also obviosuly wanted to assess Walkers level of recovery in minicamps . Even now Shanny doenst seem to be in any hurry to get rid of Ash, though the TE situation may make him more open to it.

[watermock]

No way we are going to tag him. Zero chance. Hula Hoop, you make some valid points, but should Lilly see what role that Dinger has in mind for him? I'll agree we didn't give him many short bones, and he was used to stretch the field and draw the deep safety over to open up the field. So I agree that he was missused, but he needs to understand that was his role and be the team player. Does he think he can dictate to Shanahan or the former Kubiak? He's only hurting himself and evidently has a much greater opinion of himself than the rest of the league. Now why that is no doubt because of how he was used, but now that he's being percieved as a malcontent not for money but trying to dictate his role, you won't find a coach in the NFL that will accept that. Lelie doesn't have T.O. talent, and Parcells has told T.O. at the outset he's not going to bend his offense to suit Me-O.

[BroncoInferno]

In any case, if there are seriously six teams looking into him, I don't think the Broncos are going to move from their demands for second round value. Do you?

The number of teams showing interest is irrelevant to what those teams believe his value to be. Six teams having interest (allegedly--the source is PFT, after all) does not mean that any of the six have interest in parting with anything close to the 2nd round asking price.

[Taco John]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=42299

During the NFL draft last month, the Broncos offered Lelie
to the Houston Texans and his former offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak in return for the first pick in the fourth round.

:)


For the record, I believe that story is BS...

[BroncoInferno]

You are wrong on this one BI, and Taco is right, Lelie didn't utter a peep before the draft in public. Yes, through his agent he quitely expressed his desire to be traded before the draft and got permision to seek a trade for a high roudn pick, but how do you know the totally spectualtive lack of interest by other teams wasnt as much them laying down bargaining chips against Shanny who was asking for a high #2 pick in the 06 draft, which was never going to fly to begin with?

Shanny wasn't about the let Lelie go until he had Walker on board, at the very least, which didnt happen until the second round which is awfully late for teams to suddenly make a decision when they knew they could get him for cheaper after the draft.

Shanny also obviosuly wanted to assess Walkers level of recovery in minicamps . Even now Shanny doenst seem to be in any hurry to get rid of Ash, though the TE situation may make him more open to it.

I didn't say he went public, just that a trade was requested. My point was that even before Lelie DID go public after the draft, no one was willing to come anywhere near our asking price.

[Taco John]

No way we are going to tag him. Zero chance.



I disagree. I think the potential is there. I'm not saying it's a grand slam. Much of it depends on how things develop with Rod. But I certainly think that the potential is there. Shanahan has to protect the team somehow.

[Taco John]

The number of teams showing interest is irrelevant to what those teams believe his value to be. Six teams having interest (allegedly--the source is PFT, after all) does not mean that any of the six have interest in parting with anything close to the 2nd round asking price.



If there's that many teams interested it increases his value, no?

[BroncoInferno]

I disagree. I think the potential is there. I'm not saying it's a grand slam. Much of it depends on how things develop with Rod. But I certainly think that the potential is there. Shanahan has to protect the team somehow.

He'd have to have a big year to get the tag. Doesn't that cost the average of the top 5 players at that position? No way we tag him and go on the hook for that kind of scratch unless he actually shows up and has an 80 catch 10 TD type of season.

[Taco John]

He'd have to have a big year to get the tag. Doesn't that cost the average of the top 5 players at that position? No way we tag him and go on the hook for that kind of scratch unless he actually shows up and has an 80 catch 10 TD type of season.


Or... Rod gets injured or slows down somehow, and no other receiver really steps up. In that event, the Broncos would need to do something to stem the bleeding. The only thing they could do is use one of the available tags.

[BroncoInferno]

If there's that many teams interested it increases his value, no?

Theoretically, sure, but each team, I'm sure, has a ceiling in mind of how high they'll go. I doubt that ceiling is a 2nd rounder, but I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

[Taco John]

From About.com:


• A transition player has received a minimum offer of the average of the top 10 salaries of last season at the player's position or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater. • A transition player designation gives the club a first-refusal right to match within seven days an offer sheet given to the player by another club after his contract expires. If the club matches, it retains the player. If it does not match, it receives no compensation. Transition players can be signed from March 3 through July 22."

[Steve Sewell]

Let's not forget that pea-brained Shanahan who has no clue how to use a world class talent like Lelie properly.

No sh!t, I've been saying for years that Shanahan is clueless when it comes to offense...:~ohyah!:

[Steve Sewell]

I don't know why I'm getting bashed for this. I've been saying this was a pipe dream all along.

Plus, I've never said Lelie was anything BUT a deep threat... I'm also not wrong that Plummer doesn't have a very accurate deep arm, and has a tough time taking advantage of the fact that we've got one of the better deep threats in the league.

Lelie is a number two at best who needs a quarterback with skills in order to shine. We drafted one. He's a dumbass for not accepting his fate and putting the league spotlight on himself and exactly what a one dimensional guy he is. But that spotlight doesn't make Plummer any better at throwing the deep ball, so I don't know why I'm getting bashed.

Dude, a QB can't be good at everything! There aren't a whole lot of guys in the NFL that can throw a good deep ball. If Lelie would just grow a pair, compete at the line of scrimmage, and learn how to run a route that requires an actual cut, he would probably be successful with Plummer. But he just wants to be the gazelle that blows by people. Apparently he hasn't taken a look at James Jett's career numbers...not good.

[Steve Sewell]

Exactly, Lelie catches everything thrown his way, he could be a great number 1 WR, has the heart of a champion and he would destroy Teddy Bruschi AND Chuck Norris in a bare knuckle boxing fight to the death.

I think you might want to start praying...I doubt God can do anything to stop Tedy and Chuck right now though...

[kamakazi_kal]

he was used to stretch the field and draw the deep safety over to open up the field. .


i personally like leile but if he goes anywhere near the middle of the field he will get broken in half.......cmon dude looks like one of those walking stick bugs with cleats on

[Barry Ramey]

Do we know for a fact assuming Cutler will be a starter in the NFL, I think he will, but by the time he's ready to start, Lelie will even be around to catch these long balls? Broncos would re-sign Lelie, who wants to be a #1 WR, to just catch long balls, maybe one a game if that? I doubt the drafting of Cutler had anything to do with Lelie and trying to make him look good.

[Barry Ramey]

Broncos could wait until training camp or preseason to make a move to see if a team suffers from injuries at WR and that might help make Lelie look more attractive. Right now, hard to see getting more than a 4th rounder.

[Hulamau]

The idea that more would not have been asked of him if he were capable and had the confidence of the coaches to do more displays the kind of blind homerism for an individual player that totally strips away one's ability to assess a situation with anything even resembling objectivity.


BI, there you go again mis-reading what I actually said and then going off on another tangent of speculation. Show me anywhere in my post where I said Shanny should have used Lelie as the #1 WR? You always fall back on this utter disregard for the reality of our team chemsitry and make up the past two years with these kind of baseless presumptions of what I'm saying.

I'm not trying to make either Shanny, Plummer or Lelie 'wrong" here. I'm simply describing the situation. Furthermore, the logic laid out in my post is perfectly sound even if you disagree with what you presume it is suggesting. Try going back and reading it SLOWLY and reread it a few times and perhaps there will be a deeper comprehension of what I'm actaully suggesting in your next reply.

I've never said Lelie was BETTER than Rod at running short routes, only that he is certainly CAPABLE of doing the job if he ever got the chance on a steady basis. Can you possibly see the distinction?

Nor have I complained about Shanny/Kubes decison to use Lelie just as they did, considering the structure of our team and the offensive philosophy. With our run first offense it makes perfect sense.

That is why Lelie is simply not the best fit for us as long as Rod is here and healthy and Jake is going to be restrained as he was last year for the sake of a more cautious passing game.

Nevertheless, you presume the reason for Ash not being number one is because he simply is not capable of playing that role, when the reverse is even more true. That Rod is no longer capable of running a credible deep threat, a position which is absolutely paramount to our offense and run game.

ERGO, Lelie got the job of deep threat by design and by default, not solely because that was ALL he could do. Please tell me you can actually discern that distinction as well!?

And last year his opportunity to make plays was curtailed even more due to the game planning decisions to minimize Plummer's tendency to throw the long one's up for grabs, particuarly when Lelie was the second or third option on a play. Thats a bonefide fact, not my opinion, and everone on this board (or almost everyone) knows that.

There is nothing wrong with curtailing the long shots either, and it was a good move for the team, but again that decision doesn't imply "Lelie can't catch the long ball so lets not throw it to him so much" as you so-called logic that "surely if Ash was capable of catching those kinf of balls they would have used him more" implies.

Some of the curtailed oppportunity last year was because after hitting Lelie once ot twice long early we got such a big lead that we could effectively sit on the ball, though that strategy nearly cost us a couple of times.

But Lelie didnt drop more balls than either he or Rod did in previous years, there were just as lot fewer thrown his way in 05.

But the number of times Plummer would check down to his second and third option beyond a RB or TE was very few last year to cut down on the desparation mistakes and Lelie's numbers took a direct hit as a result. That too is a plain bonefide fact.

It seems like I've spelled this same point out a hundred times and yet you continue to come back with the same wild ass assumption that I'm suggesting Lelie is BETTER than Rod at the short stuff and the coaches must be idiots for not seeing that and should have been given him Rod's job, which I've never once implied! I've only supported my conviction that Lelie could fill that job admirably too, if called on.

You also seem to pressume that if Lelie was any good at catching short balls Shanny would automatically have him run both the short and long routes!

Some one has to be the primary short to mid guy in our scheme and some one the deep threat.

If both Lelie and Rod were in their primes then they could have mixed it up more as did Eddie Mac and Rod back in the day, but are you going to tell me that with Lelie in his youth and Rod in his twilight years here that Shanny is going to have Lelie catch the short stuff and have Rod do the deep work?

There are only so many passes to go around each game and Rod is the unquestioned #1 man here for all sorts of reasons, particularly for the short stuff which suits his reduced speed and great route running ability, and as long as he can get it done at a high level on the field that will remain the case, even if Walker is also capable of 'being number 1'.

Bronco Inferno, do yourself a favor and go watch the second Oakland game tapes. Maybe you can find the highlights on "youtube", and then come back in here and tell us that Lelie is INCAPABLE of playing a larger role than the one trick pony you and a few others keep harping on!

[kamakazi_kal]

BI, there you go again mis-reading what I actually said and then going off on another tangent of speculation. Show me anywhere in my post where I said Shanny should have used Lelie as the #1 WR? You always fall back on this utter disregard for the reality of our team chemsitry and make up the past two years with these kind of baseless presumptions of what I'm saying.

I'm not trying to make either Shanny, Plummer or Lelie 'wrong" here. I'm simply describing the situation. Furthermore, the logic laid out in my post is perfectly sound even if you disagree with what you presume it is suggesting. Try going back and reading it SLOWLY and reread it a few times and perhaps there will be a deeper comprehension of what I'm actaully suggesting in your next reply.

I've never said Lelie was BETTER than Rod at running short routes, only that he is certainly CAPABLE of doing the job if he ever got the chance on a steady basis. Can you possibly see the distinction?

Nor have I complained about Shanny/Kubes decison to use Lelie just as they did, considering the structure of our team and the offensive philosophy. With our run first offense it makes perfect sense.

That is why Lelie is simply not the best fit for us as long as Rod is here and healthy and Jake is going to be restrained as he was last year for the sake of a more cautious passing game.

Nevertheless, you presume the reason for Ash not being number one is because he simply is not capable of playing that role, when the reverse is even more true. That Rod is no longer capable of running a credible deep threat, a position which is absolutely paramount to our offense and run game.

ERGO, Lelie got the job of deep threat by design and by default, not solely because that was ALL he could do. Please tell me you can actually discern that distinction as well!?

And last year his opportunity to make plays was curtailed even more due to the game planning decisions to minimize Plummer's tendency to throw the long one's up for grabs, particuarly when Lelie was the second or third option on a play. Thats a bonefide fact, not my opinion, and everone on this board (or almost everyone) knows that.

There is nothing wrong with curtailing the long shots either, and it was a good move for the team, but again that decision doesn't imply "Lelie can't catch the long ball so lets not throw it to him so much" as you so-called logic that "surely if Ash was capable of catching those kinf of balls they would have used him more" implies.

Some of the curtailed oppportunity last year was because after hitting Lelie once ot twice long early we got such a big lead that we could effectively sit on the ball, though that strategy nearly cost us a couple of times.

But Lelie didnt drop more balls than either he or Rod did in previous years, there were just as lot fewer thrown his way in 05.

But the number of times Plummer would check down to his second and third option beyond a RB or TE was very few last year to cut down on the desparation mistakes and Lelie's numbers took a direct hit as a result. That too is a plain bonefide fact.

It seems like I've spelled this same point out a hundred times and yet you continue to come back with the same wild ass assumption that I'm suggesting Lelie is BETTER than Rod at the short stuff and the coaches must be idiots for not seeing that and should have been given him Rod's job, which I've never once implied! I've only supported my conviction that Lelie could fill that job admirably too, if called on.

You also seem to pressume that if Lelie was any good at catching short balls Shanny would automatically have him run both the short and long routes!

Some one has to be the primary short to mid guy in our scheme and some one the deep threat.

If both Lelie and Rod were in their primes then they could have mixed it up more as did Eddie Mac and Rod back in the day, but are you going to tell me that with Lelie in his youth and Rod in his twilight years here that Shanny is going to have Lelie catch the short stuff and have Rod do the deep work?

There are only so many passes to go around each game and Rod is the unquestioned #1 man here for all sorts of reasons, particularly for the short stuff which suits his reduced speed and great route running ability, and as long as he can get it done at a high level on the field that will remain the case, even if Walker is also capable of 'being number 1'.

Bronco Inferno, do yourself a favor and go watch the second Oakland game tapes. Maybe you can find the highlights on "youtube", and then come back in here and tell us that Lelie is INCAPABLE of playing a larger role than the one trick pony you and a few others keep harping on!

but it all worked great with eddie mac and rod and the same coaching staff neither rod or ed had that speed but they managed to get deep and short diffrence is that eddie and rod would watch the ball not the hit thats comin
i think if leile were more capable they would take advantage of it..... dont you... and FYI one game against a terrible defense wont change the one trick pony addage, ash can barley break single press let alone beat doubles ... if he were called on as you so put it

[elsid13]

but it all worked great with eddie mac and rod and the same coaching staff neither rod or ed had that speed but they managed to get deep and short diffrence is that eddie and rod would watch the ball not the hit thats comin
i think if leile were more capable they would take advantage of it..... dont you... and FYI one game against a terrible defense wont change the one trick pony addage, ash can barley break single press let alone beat doubles ... if he were called on as you so put it


Let be honest, Rod Smith is losing a step. It happen to us all. I think that one of the major reason that Lelie was sent deep was to allow Smith to work underneath, since he (Smith) couldn't make the deep runs like he used to. When Rod Smith and Eddie Mac were here it possible for Kubes and Shanahan to switch between the one stretching the field, and the one working underneath, because both had decent speed. Right now he have one guy with speed (Lelie) and one that has to really on technique (Smith) to get deep, and doesn't have ability to demand over the top coverage. Smith had one deep pass all year and that was in the first NE game, where the corner/safety blew the coverage.

[Hulamau]

I didn't say he went public, just that a trade was requested. My point was that even before Lelie DID go public after the draft, no one was willing to come anywhere near our asking price.

My bad then, I agree with the above.

[kamakazi_kal]

Let be honest, Rod Smith is losing a step. It happen to us all. I think that one of the major reason that Lelie was sent deep was to allow Smith to work underneath, since he (Smith) couldn't make the deep runs like he used to. When Rod Smith and Eddie Mac were here it possible for Kubes and Shanahan to switch between the one stretching the field, and the one working underneath, because both had decent speed. Right now he have one guy with speed (Lelie) and one that has to really on technique (Smith) to get deep, and doesn't have ability to demand over the top coverage. Smith had one deep pass all year and that was in the first NE game, where the corner/safety blew the coverage.


well are you saying javon is going to just to run deep patterns, to keep the heat off of rod

[Hulamau]

but it all worked great with eddie mac and rod and the same coaching staff neither rod or ed had that speed but they managed to get deep and short diffrence is that eddie and rod would watch the ball not the hit thats comin
i think if leile were more capable they would take advantage of it..... dont you... and FYI one game against a terrible defense wont change the one trick pony addage, ash can barley break single press let alone beat doubles ... if he were called on as you so put it


Kamakazi, two things, Lelie did catch a fair number of short to mid stuff particularly the 15 yard hook to the sideline that they liked to throw him last year and the year before. Granted he's never goign to be the best TO kind of a guy accross the middle, but a guy like Marvin HArrison is also slightly built and can catch all over the field, though they tend not to send him directly across the middle much as well.

I agree totally that Eddie MAc and Rod had a good blend, when BOTH were in their primes .

Look, even Kubes said he should have gotten Ash more involved in the short game than he did, thats not exactly suggetsing he couldnt do it! Rod is in the twilight and still playing amazingly well for an old fart. He's one of the best route runners in the game and it only makes sense that Plummer is going to feel most comfortable with Rod and the plays are going to be mostly called for the wilely old vet that can still get it done in the short to mid stuff.

Plus, if Rod was asked to run the deep stuff while Ash branched out a lot more, he simply wouldn't be a credible deep threat consistently. That is a much bigger reason why we saw a more one dimensonal Lelie here than he is likely capable of the past two years.

The last half of 05 Lelie was catching nearly everything remotely catchable thrown his way.

Its just too bad he had to jump off the cliff at the wrong time and not stick it out another year and see what happens. Who knows, with Heimerdinger he mgithe have gotten a lot more work thatn he assumes and perhasps gotten a good taste of the future with Cutler as well.

[elsid13]

well are you saying javon is going to just to run deep patterns, to keep the heat off of rod


I believe Shanahan's plan was to run a lot of 3 WR sets, with Smith working underneath, Javon working all the area of the field and Lelie to continue to push the safeties deep. Now it going to be a new plan if Lelie is gone, and would expect Walker to be going deeper then original planned. IF Smith retires next year, Walker and Lelie would be play off each other and roles.

[watermock]

Actually, at least last year, Rod seemed again to have lost a half step, maybe 3/4. He didn't seem to have a problem returning punts two years ago, one for a TD. It's funny...I don't see Walker whining about being the #2. As far as I'm concerned, you have two #1's and a #3. You better if your going to compete. Walker seems to understand that Rod's days are numbered, and will wait his turn. What is so baffling is Lelie doesn't know what kind of offense Dinger will install. Yes, it will be alot of the same, but anyone could see that teams were starting to read Kubiak's tendencies. I think Kubiak will be a fine coach in a great situation for him. Kinda baffling they took Mario tho. Anyway, breaking up our tendencies is in order,and Dinger will likely have his own style. Dinger is also a WR coach. If I were a WR, my first choice where to go would be Denver. Cutler in the wings, a OC with WR experience, on and on. Lelie is insane.

[Hulamau]

well are you saying javon is going to just to run deep patterns, to keep the heat off of rod


That is the irony and piss poor timing of Lelies hold out is that Rod really is getting older and with Heimerdinger coming in to tweak the passing game, the odds are that the combo of Rod slowing down Walker will get a lot more opportunity than he would have last year or the year before as the number 2 guy.

It will be interesting to see just how effective Walker is at catching Jake's long ball. Hopefully, he'll be great, but the potential problem is the first half of the year where he is not only learning a new system and a new QB, but is getting over a years worth of rust and regaining confidence in the knee.

Those leaping diving grabs that are often neccessary to snag one of Jake's Hail Mary's will likley be harder to instinctively launch with that subliminal little bird whispering in the background "dont pop the knee again" those first couple of months back.

Problem is, without Lelie here we really need Walker to be on point from the first game forward.

[kamakazi_kal]

Kamakazi, two things, Lelie did catch a fair number of short to mid stuff particularly the 15 yard hook to the sideline that they liked to throw him last year and the year before. Granted he's never goign to be the best TO kind of a guy accross the middle, but a guy like Marvin HArrison is also slightly built and can catch all over the field, though they tend not to send him directly across the middle much as well.

I agree totally that Eddie MAc and Rod had a good blend, when BOTH were in their primes .

Look, even Kubes said he should have gotten Ash more involved in the short game than he did, thats not exactly suggetsing he couldnt do it! Rod is in the twilight and still playing amazingly well for an old fart. He's one of the best route runners in the game and it only makes sense that Plummer is going to feel most comfortable with Rod and the plays are going to be mostly called for the wilely old vet that can still get it done in the short to mid stuff.

Plus, if Rod was asked to run the deep stuff while Ash branched out a lot more, he simply wouldn't be a credible deep threat consistently. That is a much bigger reason why we saw a more one dimensonal Lelie here than he is likely capable of the past two years.

The last half of 05 Lelie was catching nearly everything remotely catchable thrown his way.

Its just too bad he had to jump off the cliff at the wrong time and not stick it out another year and see what happens. Who knows, with Heimerdinger he mgithe have gotten a lot more work thatn he assumes and perhasps gotten a good taste of the future with Cutler as well.

tell ya the truth i think if ash were to stick around (i hope he does) he could have that same chem. with javon if for some reason ash could just sack up i think you might by the end of the year see javon an ash on the outside and rod playing in the slot or even javon in the slot, not many teams have 3 good corners ..... for sure the afc west, man ash is being so short sighted i like the guy and want him to stay, i guess im just venting frustration
like you said rod is no spring chicken and like they say "you're only 1 play away from being the starter (or #1 option)

[Hulamau]

Actually, at least last year, Rod seemed again to have lost a half step, maybe 3/4. He didn't seem to have a problem returning punts two years ago, one for a TD. It's funny...I don't see Walker whining about being the #2. As far as I'm concerned, you have two #1's and a #3. You better if your going to compete. Walker seems to understand that Rod's days are numbered, and will wait his turn. What is so baffling is Lelie doesn't know what kind of offense Dinger will install. Yes, it will be alot of the same, but anyone could see that teams were starting to read Kubiak's tendencies. I think Kubiak will be a fine coach in a great situation for him. Kinda baffling they took Mario tho. Anyway, breaking up our tendencies is in order,and Dinger will likely have his own style. Dinger is also a WR coach. If I were a WR, my first choice where to go would be Denver. Cutler in the wings, a OC with WR experience, on and on. Lelie is insane.

I agree, Mock, Lelie could well have a much brighter future with Dinger than he might suspect.

But lets not forget that Walker did very much "whine his way out of Green Bay" and I'm sure Lelie will be just as happy with whomever he signs with as Walker was with us, even though that $40 million Walker got (and that Lelie dreamed would one day be his) makes it a lot easier to smile and be patient with the realization that Rod's days are numbered anyway.

[Hulamau]

tell ya the truth i think if ash were to stick around (i hope he does) he could have that same chem. with javon if for some reason ash could just sack up i think you might by the end of the year see javon an ash on the outside and rod playing in the slot or even javon in the slot, not many teams have 3 good corners ..... for sure the afc west, man ash is being so short sighted i like the guy and want him to stay, i guess im just venting frustration
like you said rod is no spring chicken and like they say "you're only 1 play away from being the starter (or #1 option)


Thats true, the combo of an in-prime Lelie and an in-prime and healthy Walker would be awesome. Throw in a stud in the making like Marshall as our number three and we have zero holes in the WR department for years to come.

Not to mention with a ready to roll Cutler in a year or two! Thats the crying shame of this whole situation, Ash bulldozed himself into a corner I feel and needs some help finding his way out.

Its still not too late and I think Shanny has been very reluctant to trade Ash as he sees the same potential if he can smooth things over.

It would be truly a dominant passing attack.

[elsid13]

Thats true, the combo of an in-prime Lelie and an in-prime and healthy Walker would be awesome. Throw in a stud in the making like Marshall as our number three and we have zero holes in the WR department for years to come.

Not to mention with a ready to roll Cutler in a year or two! Thats the crying shame of this whole situation, Ash bulldozed himself into a corner I feel and needs some help finding his way out.

Its still not too late and I think Shanny has been very reluctant to trade Ash as he sees the same potential if he can smooth things over.

It would be truly a dominant passing attack.


You forgot to add Shanahan has also has a lot potentially young talent in the O line that will help. - Myers, Kuper, Englisner, Foster, Hamilton

[Hulamau]

You forgot to add Shanahan has also has a lot potentially young talent in the O line that will help. - Myers, Kuper, Englisner, Foster, Hamilton


True, staying here could easily go from what appears to Ash to be a no win situation to the best of all possible worlds for him by 2007!

[kamakazi_kal]

very true...... i would be willing to bet if we had won it all last year might have been rod's last just like the duke

[Ballhawk]

I still believe that Lelie is worth a second round pick, but by not showing up to camp, he's hurt his trade value rather than helped it. He's put the Broncos in the bargaining position that makes it easy for teams to devalue his worth and try to talk the Broncos down from their demands.

I guess we'll have to see. Right now there are supposedly 6 teams who are interested. I doubt any of them are willing to part with a second round draft pick at this point though. I think several teams would just as soon wait out the year and try to pick him up via free agency than give up a pick for him. In any case, the Broncos don't appear to want to part with him for anything below a third rounder at best... And it's questionable whether they even want to do that.

I personally still believe he's worth at least a second rounder meaning that he's more valuable to us on our roster *this season* than a third round future pick that may never amount to anything. I still don't think he's ever going to amount to anything but a number two for us. But as a deep threat, I think he's a valuable number two.

Lelie is worth a 2nd round pick. How many WRs in the first 2 rounds fail to ever hit 1000 yards, hell 700. Teams just value 2nd round picks becuse it is the best round to get talent for cheap, low signing bonus and 4 years at 500K per. If we had no salary cap teams would be falling over themselves to give up a 2nd rounder for a proven starter. Some here may not like Lelie's skill set, but do not deny that he does have a skill set.

I for one think he is a terrible fit for our offense and was ripped last year for suggesting a trade to Minn after he hit 1000 yards, who by the way spent the #7 OA pick on a one trick pony WR that is not going to be as good as Lelie.

Lelie is correct in everything he has said about this being a bad fit and never getting a chance to be the #1 WR, because he does not have the skills to be a #1 guy, but he does have the skills to be an elite #2 WR in a vertical offense. He is just an idiot for the way he has gone about it. If he was in camp teams would be more likely to trade for him, so he is in fact his own worst enemy right now.

[Hulamau]

Great post Ballhawk!

[fontaine]

Amen Taco,

We get some two-bit writer from Boston who hears from a "league source" (aka some specualtion in a chat room) that Lelie is only a "one dimensional deep threat" simply because that is precisely ONLY how he was used for 4 years, and its automatically a bonifde fact.

However, the fact that Lelie is capable of handling a larger role than he has been ASSIGNED to carry out for us so far, is precisely what his argument and conviction is about!

There is no argument that superfically it 'appears' he is a one trick pony, but that is simply because he's only been asked to ride One pony! If he had been given a realistic shot at playing a larger role with lot of shorts, slants and accross the middle stuff the past couple of years AND then failed at it, the writer's point would have merit, but the opposite, in fact, is true.


Let's see. Time to update the conspiracy theory:

Lelie is being held back by:

Plummer, check.
Shanahan's offense, check.
Kubiak, check.

And now we have a new entry:

Lelie is being held back by:

League wide scouts, 49ers, the Pats, and other talent evaluators who believe he's a one trick pony, check.


Ofcourse they are ALL wrong. Lelie is monster at going over the middle, running all the different routes, slants, crossing patterns etc right. I mean Shanahan and Kubiak just love to shoot themselves in the nuts and not use a bonafide all around WR and just have him run deep routes because they have a deep hatred of first round WRs and want to piss Lelie off, just like they did with Marcus Nash.

[fontaine]

Because I don't know that I was wrong. Teams don't start out by offering top value for players who are holding out when they can wait a year and try to get him for free. It's not until they find themselves in a desperate situation that they start moving up the value chart.


Uhm no.

We got Javon for a second when we already had Rod/Lelie.
John Abraham for a first.
Steve McNair for a fourth when the Titans couldn't even sign their rookies unless they released him.

And that's just this year.

[BroncoInferno]

Let's see. Time to update the conspiracy theory:

Lelie is being held back by:

Plummer, check.
Shanahan's offense, check.
Kubiak, check.

And now we have a new entry:

Lelie is being held back by:

League wide scouts, 49ers, the Pats, and other talent evaluators who believe he's a one trick pony, check.


Ofcourse they are ALL wrong. Lelie is monster at going over the middle, running all the different routes, slants, crossing patterns etc right. I mean Shanahan and Kubiak just love to shoot themselves in the nuts and not use a bonafide all around WR and just have him run deep routes because they have a deep hatred of first round WRs and want to piss Lelie off, just like they did with Marcus Nash.

You forgot to include my brother and the kitchen sink.

[DrFate]

I wouldn't be suprised to see us franchise or transition tag him...

Giving him the franchise tag would also give him, what? A one year deal with money of a top 5 WR? I can't see that happening, even if Rod and Walker crash into each other and both get hurt.

Transition, maybe. It would depend on compensation.

[BroncoInferno]

Giving him the franchise tag would also give him, what? A one year deal with money of a top 5 WR? I can't see that happening, even if Rod and Walker crash into each other and both get hurt.

Transition, maybe. It would depend on compensation.

Even the transition puts us on the hook for the average salary of the top 10 WR.

[DrFate]

Even the transition puts us on the hook for the average salary of the top 10 WR.

Thanks, BI.
I simply can't see the Broncos doing that.

[Odysseus]

Plummer isn't accurate on his deep ball but Lelie has doesn't fight for the ball or get seperation off the line. I thought Lelie vastly improved last year despite the "drop" in production. He got chewed up pretty good but he played solid football.

The real conspiracy is who mucked up Lelie's brain to think that anyone would be interested in him at this point of any value? He has turned himself into an NFL commodity that can bought cheaply and dumped easily. Hey Ashley I need you to wash my car? No. Cut him. Why not. He didn't cost anything to get him. He'll have to take a one year deal. Nobody will want to pay him anything.

Leile is worth a round two pick because of the investment the Broncos have put into him. He's not worth a franchise tag.

Professional sports is 90% attitude. There are a thousand wide recievers better than Ashley Lelie who will never get even a whiff of professional ranks. Lelie does not know what he has and in the end will have nothing but regrets. Lelie will not end up doing anything with his career after the Broncos other than have an asterisk after his name that says "Former Broncos starter".

[DrFate]

You seriously think the Broncos are going to part with Lelie for a fourth rounder?
Considering his production, his attitude, and his current contract - a 4th is about what you can expect. Will the Broncos make this deal? I think that depends on where they think Lelie will be when camp opens.