Deion Branch a no show at camp

[Man-Goblin]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2482376

"'I'm not going to talk about anybody who's not here,' coach Bill Belichick said."

Gee, where have we heard that line before?

Anyways, I think Branch is a real quality receiver. But he looks to be headed for a similar stand-off to Lelie's, only one is about money and one is about ????

[ludo21]

Just go to camp, these dumb morons!!!

[footstepsfrom#27]

Swap 'em.

[Traveler]

Swap 'em.


Pass!

[NOLA Bronco]

Swap 'em.

The Broncos couldn't make this trade. Branch was huge in a SB, Lelie is huge in his head.

[ludo21]

Maybe the Lelie for Graham trade may happen after all??

[Arkansas Bronco]

Maybey with Branch pulling this it will help push the Lelie trade.

[SAGE]

Pass!


I sure hope you're joking!


Branch
.
.
.
Kennison
.
.
.
Leilelaleihu

[CoopDawg]

Could our offense honestly keep Rod Smith, Javon Walker, and Deion Branch happy?

[Kaylore]

Could our offense honestly keep Rod Smith, Javon Walker, and Deion Branch happy?
Branch and Javon would be number 1 and 2. Rod would be number three. That would be sick and is a total pipe dream.

I'd personally like one of their tight ends and that would fill a larger need for us.

[Taco John]

Branch is way overrated. He's good, but he's not what he's being painted to be in this thread.

[Kaylore]

Branch is way overrated. He's good, but he's not what he's being painted to be in this thread. Oh that's right. It's all the quarterback, right? I suppose Anquan Boldin's development is just evidence that Josh McCown is one of the elite QB's in the league. Same for Doug Flutie "developing" Eric Moulds. Yep, Receivers cannot under any circumstances develop as players without a top five quarterback throwing to them and if one is not emerging as he should it's always Jake Plummer, I mean that QB's fault.:dummy:

[Taco John]

No. He's just overrated all around. He's not going to come into Denver and steal a job from either Rod or Javon outright, that's for sure.

The hype machine in this place is always working overtime...

[SureShot]

Oh that's right. It's all the quarterback, right? I suppose Anquan Boldin's development is just evidence that Josh McCown is one of the elite QB's in the league. Same for Doug Flutie "developing" Eric Moulds. Yep, Receivers cannot under any circumstances develop as players without a top five quarterback throwing to them and if one is not emerging as he should it's always Jake Plummer, I mean that QB's fault.:dummy:

You would have to admit it is easier, but thats not the reason Laylee isn't a number 1 wr.

[Taco John]

Lelie isn't a number one WR because he's not good enough to be a #1. He's a #2 at best and always will be. He's not tough enough to be the #1.

[Kaylore]

No. He's just overrated all around. He's not going to come into Denver and steal a job from either Rod or Javon outright, that's for sure.

The hype machine in this place is always working overtime...
I don't know about that. I know that they spread the ball around a lot in that offense and I also know he has some pretty nice hands. You're probably right that he'd have a heck of a time getting Rod's spot, but in a a year or two, after learning the system, his youth would give him an edge.

[Kaylore]

You would have to admit it is easier, but thats not the reason Laylee isn't a number 1 wr.
I know. But Taco believes that Plummer is the reason for everything wrong with our team. Didn't pick up the third down we needed? Plummer's fault. Defense gave up 28 points and 400 yards passing? Plummer's fault - for not keeping the other team off the field OBVIOUSLY! Elam missed a kick? Plummer's fault (I mean he's the holder.) Ashley Lelie takes a step back from his play level in '04? Plummer's fault.

Plummer bails our defense out against the Eagles by throwing for 300 yards and four touchdowns saving a secondary that was leaking like a faucet and effectively letting McNabb score at will. Taco comes in saying something to the effect that it was a good thing Plummer did his job because otherwise he would have cost us the game like he did against the Giants. That's right, if your defense surrenders 250 yards in the air in one and a half quarters and the game is lost, it's the Quarterback's fault - or at least Jake Plummer's anyway.

/End rant

[Taco John]

I don't know about that. I know that they spread the ball around a lot in that offense and I also know he has some pretty nice hands. You're probably right that he'd have a heck of a time getting Rod's spot, but in a a year or two, after learning the system, his youth would give him an edge.


He has the same negatives that Lelie has... He's not big on contact. He's slow off the line and has troubles with the jam, though he uses his size well to find the open space. And, unlike Lelie, he's a small target.

He's not what you're cracking him out to be. But don't let me interrupt the hype parade. Please, carry on...

[Taco John]

I know. But Taco believes that Plummer is the reason for everything wrong with our team.


No I don't. But, I think Plummer contributes to our problems, to be sure. For instance, I don't think we're going to win *ANY* games where he gives up four turnovers, let alone a playoff game.

[Taco John]

Also, for the record, it's statistically true that Jake only hits 50% of his third down throws... Trent Green hits 82% of them, for comparison.

Don't even try to tell me that's all Lelie.

[Taco John]

Jake Delhomme hits 87% of his third down throws...

[Taco John]

Josh McCown hist 92% of his third down throws.

[Taco John]

Still want to make the case that Jake doesn't have problems?

[Kaylore]

Josh McCown hist 92% of his third down throws.
Well that settles it.

Josh McCown > Jake Plummer

[Taco John]

Just for fun... When we're on third downs, and Jake drops back, flip a coin and call your shot.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Booyah!

Branch is a moron if he's holding out. He hasn't even had a 1,000 yard season.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Well that settles it.

Josh McCown > Jake Plummer

Shut up, homer.

[Taco John]

Booyah!

Branch is a moron if he's holding out. He hasn't even had a 1,000 yard season.



He doesn't need a 1,000 yard season. He got some face time during a Disney commercial, and now he's ready to take Rod Smith's job! :angel:

[Taco John]

Well that settles it.

Josh McCown > Jake Plummer


I would say it a little more like this...


Josh McCown <> Jake Plummer

I'd bet Shanahan could build an offense to make either guy look good enough to make the playoffs.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

He doesn't need a 1,000 yard season. He got some face time during a Disney commercial, and now he's ready to take Rod Smith's job! :angel:

All I can say is it would be amusing to watch Jake Plummer throw to a 5-foot-9 receiver.

[Taco John]

All I can say is it would be amusing to watch Jake Plummer throw to a 5-foot-9 receiver.



Shut up... It would not.

[Pendejo]

Shut up... It would not.

He most likely would only have to throw to him for one season.

[Taco John]

How in the hell did Kaylore turn this into a Plummer thread anyways? I can't figure that out...

[Kaylore]

Still want to make the case that Jake doesn't have problems?
I never made that case. I was making the case that your disapproval of Plummer is beyond rational. That you blame him for failures in all three phases of the game. I might be channelling Popps here, but I suspect you probably felt Griese got a bad wrap. When he got cut and they brought Plummer in, Jake became the face of a change that you never liked and you've been dis-trustful of him from day one.

Plummer is a good quarterback, but he has made some mistakes and cost us some games. The games he's lost us are because of him turning over the ball. But blaming him for a defense giving up 5+ touchdowns, or all of a receiver's development (or lack thereof) is a joke.

[Taco John]

I never made that case. I was making the case that your disapproval of Plummer is beyond rational.

Nah, it's totally rational. In fact, it's so rational that the front office went out and traded up for a quarterback to replace him.

[Kaylore]

Nah, it's totally rational. In fact, it's so rational that the front office went out and traded up for a quarterback to replace him. That's a nice way of ommiting my post. You want to argue that we need a new QB to get to the Super Bowl, fine. But if you want to try and argue that Josh McCown or some other Qb would have made Lelie a super star, or helped stop the Colt's ass-kicking they gave us, you're insane. I'm saying that you blame Jake for everything. It's hilarious. I'm waiting for you to blame him some players' injuries next.

[Taco John]

I might be channelling Popps here, but I suspect you probably felt Griese got a bad wrap. When he got cut and they brought Plummer in, Jake became the face of a change that you never liked and you've been dis-trustful of him from day one.

Bah. If that were the case, wouldn't I be bashing Jay Cutler in favor of my guy Leinart? That line of logic is nothing short of a joke. I don't hold allegiance to players. I hold allegiance to the Broncos. And again, and again, and again... Plummer is from my home state. I played on the same football field as the guy once. I want nothing more than to see Jake succeed, especially as a Bronco. It would be a great home state story. Jake was the face of change that not only did I like, but predicted big things for. This moronic hype that I was a Griese guy who just hates Plummer because I miss Griese is laughable. You can think it if you want... It's not going to change one bit about what I think of Plummer... The only thing that's going to make me change my mind about Plummer is him going into a playoff game and executing the game plan. That's it.



But blaming him for a defense giving up 5+ touchdowns, or all of a receiver's development (or lack thereof) is a joke.


I never blamed Plummer for the defense giving up 5+ touchdowns. I'd love to see the quote from that... Plummer has no control of the game when the defense is on the field... And why should I expect him to, when he barely has control when the offense is on the field?

[Tombstone RJ]

Eh, I think Josh McCown would do very well in Denver... then again, the grass is always greener...

[Kaylore]

Shut up, homer.
Your stupidy. Nyah!

[Taco John]

Seriously... Why did you turn this into a Jake thread?

[Kaylore]

Bah. If that were the case, wouldn't I be bashing Jay Cutler in favor of my guy Leinart? No because Jay Cutler didn't get Griese out of town. I think you don't like Jake specifically.

I never blamed Plummer for the defense giving up 5+ touchdowns. I'd love to see the quote from that... Plummer has no control of the game when the defense is on the field... And why should I expect him to, when he barely has control when the offense is on the field? That's absolutely not true and you know it. You blamed the offense for our loss against the colts. Then you made your avatar of a large boulder blocking the road with a 16 on it. What could that mean?

Jake lost us some games. I actually don't blame him for the Pittsburg loss because he was hit multiple times and sacked three times.

I DO blame him for games like the Atlanta game last year. Or the Bengals game last year, or the Chiefs game at arrowhead this year. Those were games where he gave the ball to the other team by being stupid.

Games like the Giants were the defense's fault for not stopping the Giants from marching down field and scoring - twice.

[Taco John]

No because Jay Cutler didn't get Griese out of town. I think you don't like Jake specifically.

LOL I think you've got a wild imagination and are so desperate to defend Jake that you'd bring him up in threads that have nothing to do with him... Like this one for instance...

[Kaylore]

Seriously... Why did you turn this into a Jake thread?
I'm channelling Popps. :wiggle:

I noticed that you mentioned Branch is overrated and it made me think back to your post where you said that a receiver's development is dependant on the QB who throws to him. Then it snow-balled.

Seriously, I'm kind of in a pissy mood. (can you tell?) I got sent home from work because I had food poisoning and I wanted to work today. So I feel like crap.

[Kaylore]

LOL I think you've got a wild imagination and are so desperate to defend Jake that you'd bring him up in threads that have nothing to do with him... Like this one for instance...
Not really. Just to you.:-*

[Taco John]

Hmmm... You registered in 2004... Jake Plummer joined the Broncos in 2003. Don't you think you're talking out of your butt a little?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

you never liked and you've been dis-trustful of him from day one.


That is such BS...i can personally vouch that this isn't true. Before Plummer's meltdown at the end of 2004, TJ was pretty much in love with the guy.

[Taco John]

Not really. Just to you.:-*



Heh... Works for me. I can talk about this topic all day long. The only place I ever get disagreement is from Broncos fans in love with Jake. Hey, I can't blame them. He's a very likable guy. Just not during playoff games.

[Kaylore]

Hmmm... You registered in 2004... Jake Plummer joined the Broncos in 2003. Don't you think you're talking out of your butt a little?
Re-read my post.

I suspect you probably felt Griese got a bad wrap.

That's a supposition. I never claimed I knew it. But I've seen the retarded things you blame him for and it's been said by enough people here that I figured there might be a kernal of truth to it.

[Taco John]

And like I said... If my criticism of him was so irrational, then we wouldn't have jockeyed our way up to take a quarterback. We'd have done like Meffley wanted, and sat on Jake for the next 5 years.

[Kaylore]

He's a very likable guy.
I actually disagree with this too.

[Taco John]

Re-read my post.




Oh, I definitely did think Griese got a bad wrap... Especially letting Tony Jones go, and replacing him with a back-up center. I knew what the end result of that was going to be. But once he was gone, he was gone. We got Jake, and he was showing some promise. I didn't hold a grudge against my home state guy for Shanahan's ego getting the best of him, thinking he could develop a back-up center into a performer... I don't understand why I would? Jake had no part of that decision.

[Bronco Yoda]

Could our offense honestly keep Rod Smith, Javon Walker, and Deion Branch happy?

Sad but true. WR's these days get worse every year. You'd think that football wasn't a TEAM sport or someting from some of these guys.

[watermock]

Josh McCown hist 92% of his third down throws.

Show me a link please.

My stats say he's thrown 20 TD's and 21 INT's and has had a rating of 74 in the last two years.

2004 Arizona Cardinals 14 13 408 233 57.1 2511 6.15 48 11 10 31/263 30 3 74.1
2005 Arizona Cardinals 9 6 270 163 60.4 1836 6.80 49 9 11 18/101 23 6 74.9

[Taco John]

Show me a link please.


http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302085/splits/2005

[Kaylore]

And like I said... If my criticism of him was so irrational, then we wouldn't have jockeyed our way up to take a quarterback. We'd have done like Meffley wanted, and sat on Jake for the next 5 years.
No, actually. Look, I love the Cutler pick. I'm pointing out that if his problems were represented on a line...

The Staff think Jake is this bad:
<----------->

and we need someone who's line looks this:
<---->

You think Jake is this bad:
<------------------------------------------------------------->
So the staff and you can agree with the prognosis that we need a change, but where you might think a new QB is a panacea for all our teams' woes, the staff thinks maybe a decent pass rush specialist, especially on third downs, and maybe some better receivers could really help things out as well.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Oops...I think Taco means QB rating.

[Taco John]

No, actually. Look, I love the Cutler pick. I'm pointing out that if his problems were represented on a line...

The Staff think Jake is this bad:
<----------->

and we need someone who's line looks this:
<---->

You think Jake is this bad:
<------------------------------------------------------------->
So the staff and you can agree with the prognosis that we need a change, but where you might think a new QB is a panacea for all our teams' woes, the staff thinks maybe a decent pass rush specialist, especially on third downs, and maybe some better receivers could really help things out as well.


You're wrong...


It's more like:

The Staff think Jake is this bad:
<------------------------->

and we need someone who's line looks this:
<------->


I agree with the staff...



People who like Jake want to give him a free pass and since I'm not, they're willing to argue with me about it all day long... and since I'm willing to do so, I get a reputation as an irrational hater. In reality, I don't figure that my thoughts on Jake are too far off from what the staff thinks... And that they think it was bad enough that we had to move immediately to get it taken care of. And that the problem was bad enough that we needed to jump up the draft board to get it taken care of.

The bottom line for me is that we did make that move, and whether the staff and I are close in our thoughts or not is immaterial... Jake is a lame duck no matter how divergent our thoughts are, unless he learns to execute the game plan in big games.

[Kaylore]

Oops...I think Taco means QB rating.
Yeah. It's 60% completion on third down from McCown vs 50% from Plummer.

[Kaylore]

People who like Jake want to give him a free pass and since I'm not, they're willing to argue with me about it all day long... and since I'm willing to do so, I get a reputation as an irrational hater. In reality, I don't figure that my thoughts on Jake are too far off from what the staff thinks... And that they think it was bad enough that we had to move immediately to get it taken care of.

The bottom line for me is that we did make that move, and whether the staff and I are close in our thoughts or not is immaterial... Jake is a lame duck no matter how divergent our thoughts are, unless he learns to execute the game plan in big games.
I seriously doubt that the staff felt it was all Jake's fault we lost games where we gave up 400 yards of offense. That's where you and the staff part.

[Taco John]

Oops...I think Taco means QB rating.



Ooops... You're right. I was looking at QB rating... It looks like McCown is only 13% better than Jake on third downs...

[Taco John]

I seriously doubt that the staff felt it was all Jake's fault we lost games where we gave up 400 yards of offense. That's where you and the staff part.


Actually, no, we don't part there. I don't think it was *all* Jake's fault. But I'd bet that the staff would agree that Jake needs to execute the game plan and control the ball on offense so that opposing offenses don't have so much time with a ball in their hands.

[Taco John]

Like I said... I could talk about this all day. There's enough stats and facts and situations to give me an arsenal. And I'm willing to. But in the end, it's that arsenal that made it important for the Broncos to ignore the years that we have Jake secured under contract and jockey up to draft a guy to replace him. So I'm not sure what your endgame here to prove that the staff is ultimately confident in Jake and that I'm so far off base as to call me irrational... But I'm more than willing to flesh it out to find out.

[Kaylore]

Actually, no, we don't part there. I don't think it was *all* Jake's fault. But I'd bet that the staff would agree that Jake needs to execute the game plan and control the ball on offense so that opposing offenses don't have so much time with a ball in their hands.
Sorry. *Mostly*

See this is what i'm talking about. At what point is it ok to get the D to own up? 300 yards? 400? Jake never turned the ball over against the Giants either.

[Bronco Yoda]

My opinion on the whole Cutler pick thingy is like this...

The Staff think Jake is this GOOD:
<----------------------->
He's played this GOOD to this point for us:
<------------------->

and we miss having someone (ELWAY) thats this GOOD:
<-------------------------------------------------------------->

And Mike thinks Culer could be this GOOD:
<------------------------------------------>


I'm happy that Mike is ever pushing the team to get better no matter how good we are at the time. Most coaches wouldn't have traded CP either. This is why we stay a consistant winner year in year out.

[Kaylore]

So I'm not sure what your endgame here to prove that the staff is ultimately confident in Jake and that I'm so far off base as to call me irrational... But I'm more than willing to flesh it out to find out.
I've already told you. You blame Jake, and only Jake, for almost everything wrong with our team. I can't think of a single loss where you didn't point a finger at Plummer, which is to suggest that we have the greatest team in the cosmos and this one bad seed is holding this perfect-season-capable squad of players back from their destiny.

[Kaylore]

My opinion on the whole Cutler trade thingy is like this...

The Staff think Jake is this GOOD:
<----------------------->
He's played this GOOD to this point for us:
<------------------->

and we miss having someone (ELWAY) thats this GOOD:
<-------------------------------------------------------------->

And Mike thinks Culer could be this GOOD:
<------------------------------------------>


I'm happy that Mike is ever pushing the team to get better no matter how good we are at the time. Most coaches wouldn't have traded CP either. This is why we stay a consistant winner year in year out.

That's essentially where I'm at.

[clint7]

I like to consider myself a non-bias observer. I've been a member since 2001, but don't have 20,000 freakin' posts because I just don't have the time or desire to get involved and write a reply to every thread. HOWEVER, I've been around long enough, read every day, and do searches (when in a hurry) on my favorite, most respected posters. That being said (in regard to any future slams against my credibility)...Taco, I think Kaylore is not off base on his posts in this thread. I remember you being one of the most loyal defenders of Griese (those battles with errand were classic)...and I feel I gave Griese plenty of "rope" before I finally decided to chime in and call for his exit along with the masses...much more rope than others gave the kid. But you rarely wavered, and at times seemed to defend him to a fault. Enter Jake Plummer...and you've seemed to be on him case from the start (as Kaylore mentioned: avatars, wise remarks, but then the occasional "I like him, he's from my home state" remark to throw off the scent from the dogs on what I feel is unfair, constant jabs on the guy). I think you've given Plummer zero rope to make a mistake and strike at the first sniff of blood in the water...the same thing that upset you when others did the same thing to Griese...blamed for all when things went bad, not enough credit when things went well, even a jab when things went well. It's just my humble opinion...and I know this is off topic on the thread, but I thought I'd weigh in and say I don't think Kaylore is off base on his views regarding you, Griese, and Plummer. No ill will intended either way, you both are still cool. Just the way I've seen it over the years.

As for me, I didn't shed a tear when Griese left, was actually in his corner...for awhile, that is. But I'm certainly in Plummer's corner and hope that "new kid" stays on the bench for several years. It would mean Plummer is healthy, doing well, and the team is doing well. Hey, maybe I'm the biased one. I like Plummer. The guy reminds me of most of the guys I grew up with...wait, isn't that your line, TJ. ;)

[ozomulsion]

He has the same negatives that Lelie has... He's not big on contact. He's slow off the line and has troubles with the jam, though he uses his size well to find the open space. And, unlike Lelie, he's a small target.

He's not what you're cracking him out to be. But don't let me interrupt the hype parade. Please, carry on...

That's not true Taco. Branch gets off the line very well. I don't understand why you want to discount his flat out dominant Super Bowl game. It's funny how they put a SUPER BOWL game on the shoulders of some overrated WR. This is not the one reason why he's a very good receiver. It will be very difficult for any receiver to put up big numbers in that Pats Offense.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Sorry. *Mostly*

See this is what i'm talking about. At what point is it ok to get the D to own up? 300 yards? 400? Jake never turned the ball over against the Giants either.

There's nothing wrong with allowing 300 yards of offense.

In fact, in your playoff games, New England had more yards than Pittsburgh, yet scored 14 fewer points.

Maybe because the offense didn't dump the ball in New England's lap 4 times?

[Taco John]

What do you want me to accuse the defense of? Not having enough talent up front to pressure the quarterback effectively, thus forcing the DC to make wild adjustments like blitzing the linebackers all day long? Will that be a good place to start? Or how about accusing them of always having rookies in the defensive backfield for opposing offenses to expose? Is that a good place to criticize? I'm not quite sure what you want from me. If you just want a blanket statement, like "we sure gave up a lot on defense" I can do that. I'm not sure what it accomplishes.

I do know that we went out this past offseason, and despite the defensive troubles we have, focused on offense. So apparently, the staff isn't altogether that far off from what I was thinking... No?

[Crowpointer]

I like to consider myself a non-bias observer. I've been a member since 2001, but don't have 20,000 freakin' posts because I just don't have the time or desire to get involved and write a reply to every thread. HOWEVER, I've been around long enough, read every day, and do searches (when in a hurry) on my favorite, most respected posters. That being said (in regard to any future slams against my credibility)...Taco, I think Kaylore is not off base on his posts in this thread. I remember you being one of the most loyal defenders of Griese (those battles with errand were classic)...and I feel I gave Griese plenty of "rope" before I finally decided to chime in and call for his exit along with the masses...much more rope than others gave the kid. But you rarely wavered, and at times seemed to defend him to a fault. Enter Jake Plummer...and you've seemed to be on him case from the start (as Kaylore mentioned: avatars, wise remarks, but then the occasional "I like him, he's from my home state" remark to throw off the scent from the dogs on what I feel is unfair, constant jabs on the guy). I think you've given Plummer zero rope to make a mistake and strike at the first sniff of blood in the water...the same thing that upset you when others did the same thing to Griese...blamed for all when things went bad, not enough credit when things went well, even a jab when things went well. It's just my humble opinion...and I know this is off topic on the thread, but I thought I'd weigh in and say I don't think Kaylore is off base on his views regarding you, Griese, and Plummer. No ill will intended either way, you both are still cool. Just the way I've seen it over the years.

As for me, I didn't shed a tear when Griese left, was actually in his corner...for awhile, that is. But I'm certainly in Plummer's corner and hope that "new kid" stays on the bench for several years. It would mean Plummer is healthy, doing well, and the team is doing well. Hey, maybe I'm the biased one. I like Plummer. The guy reminds me of most of the guys I grew up with...wait, isn't that your line, TJ. ;)
So that settles it . Kaylore wins.

[Kaylore]

So that settles it . Kaylore wins.
:approve:

[Taco John]

Enter Jake Plummer...and you've seemed to be on him case from the start


All I can say is you're wrong. I can't change the way you remember things. All I can do is know what I said and did. I supported Jake all year in 2003 & 2004, and didn't jump his case until January 2005, after the second Colts loss. That's two full seasons of unhindered, open support for the guy. I did jump off his bandwagon during his 2004 meltdown, but kept my mouth shut about it save a couple of folks who were PMing back and forth with me about his collapse at the end of the season. I didn't say an ill word about Plummer openly until January 2005. I dare anybody to find a link proving differently.

[Kaylore]

What do you want me to accuse the defense of? Not having enough talent up front to pressure the quarterback effectively, thus forcing the DC to make wild adjustments like blitzing the linebackers all day long? Will that be a good place to start? Or how about accusing them of always having rookies in the defensive backfield for opposing offenses to expose? Is that a good place to criticize? I'm not quite sure what you want from me. If you just want a blanket statement, like "we sure gave up a lot on defense" I can do that. I'm not sure what it accomplishes.

I do know that we went out this past offseason, and despite the defensive troubles we have, focused on offense. So apparently, the staff isn't altogether that far off from what I was thinking... No?
Nope. And all those things are legit problems. Just because a young secondary shouldn't be crticized because they are young doesn't change that their inexperience cost you some plays and even games. You can't get preasure without a blitz, then you have some problems up front as well.

Jake had a lot of drops from receivers and he's lost offensive talent. This was a great way to give him more targets to play with.

Look Clint7 and many others here have now confirmed what I was suspcious of all along - that you were a Griese backer and were upset that he left. I stand by what I said. You liked Griese a lot, and felt pissed that he was changed out. Jake Plummer became the focal point of your upset feelings as he represented that change directly and you've dogged him ever since.

[Taco John]

I'm suprised that anybody would actually believe this conspiracy theory that I hold a grudge against Jake because we cut Griese. I can't imagine anything more hilarious. Popps is a genius. It's true that if you say something loud enough, and enough times, people will actually believe it regardless of what is really true.

[clint7]

All I can say is you're wrong. I can't change the way you remember things. All I can do is know what I said and did. I supported Jake all year in 2003 & 2004, and didn't jump his case until January 2005, after the second Colts loss. That's two full seasons of unhindered, open support for the guy. I did jump off his bandwagon during his 2004 meltdown, but kept my mouth shut about it save a couple of folks who were PMing back and forth with me about his collapse at the end of the season. I didn't say an ill word about Plummer until 2005.

Well...maybe you're right and I've just got you all wrong about Plummer. Still, if Plummer ends up murdered and if I'm on the Denver PD, I'm coming to your house for a little chat either way, partner. ;)

[Crowpointer]

:approve:
It is actually pretty amusing to hear Bronco (and Chiefs fans ) analyzing the Patriots and their players. It would kind of be like me giving my opinion on the Broncos to somebody like you who watches all the games religiously. It would sound foolish to you which is why I never comment on the Broncos or their players. There is more than enough fun stuff to post here.

[Kaylore]

It is actually pretty amusing to hear Bronco (and Chiefs fans ) analyzing the Patriots and their players. It would kind of be like me giving my opinion on the Broncos to somebody like you who watches all the games religiously. It would sound foolish to you which is why I never comment on the Broncos or their players. There is more than enough fun stuff to post here.
Tell us about Branch's holdout! What do the fans think? Is he a product of Brady's talent, a legitimate talent in his own right, or something in between?

[Pendejo]

It is actually pretty amusing to hear Bronco (and Chiefs fans ) analyzing the Patriots and their players. It would kind of be like me giving my opinion on the Broncos to somebody like you who watches all the games religiously. It would sound foolish to you which is why I never comment on the Broncos or their players. There is more than enough fun stuff to post here.

Yeah.

Crow, what do you think about Branch holding out. What's his value to the pats? Also...what would you think about a Lelie for Graham trade?

If you've addressed these before...sorry...but I am not a strong reader so it takes me awhile to catch up on things. What...with having to sound out all the words and all.

[Taco John]

Look Clint7 and many others here have now confirmed what I was suspcious of all along - that you were a Griese backer and were upset that he left. I stand by what I said. You liked Griese a lot, and felt pissed that he was changed out. Jake Plummer became the focal point of your upset feelings as he represented that change directly and you've dogged him ever since.


Believe what you want. Like I said, it won't bother me. I didn't like Griese "a lot." I liked the dead cap money that we could have used to improve our offensive line though. I wasn't pissed that we cut Griese the person. I didn't care for Griese the person. I was upset that we paid this guy all this money and didn't lift a finger to protect our investment. I was ok to see change at the quarterback position, but held the position that it won't mean a thing if we didn't improve our offensive line. Shanahan satisfied me by drafting George Foster that year and making a move towards bulking up on the front.

I find it humorous that you'd go so far to protect precious Plummer that you'd believe lies, despite what the archive clearly shows. You won't find an ill word said about Jake by me prior to the point in time when he deserved it.

And again... I'm fine with this all because I got what I wanted against all popular belief leading up to it: a first round quarterback.

So by all means... Believe what you want.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Taco was in love with Plummer in 03 and 04. He wouldn't shut up about him on Chiefsplanet. That didn't change until Plummer's horrible streak at the end of 04 highlighted by the San Diego game. This whole Griese thing is complete bullcrap.

[watermock]

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302085/splits/2005

That's the QB rating on 3rd down Taco. Sorry. Not that our 3rd down percentages didn't suck.

[watermock]

Josh McCown hist 92% of his third down throws.

QB rating of 92.4. 1st. down rating of 70.6, completion rating of 63.8. Very good actually, but not 92. That was his passing rating on third downs.

[watermock]

Anyway back to Branch...I'm not that thrilled honestly. We need a blocking TE and a DT.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Mock is stuck in a time warp.

[Crowpointer]

Tell us about Branch's holdout! What do the fans think? Is he a product of Brady's talent, a legitimate talent in his own right, or something in between?
Branch is not a legitiamte #1 receiver in the sense he can be doubled up on and taken out of the play because of his size. Which is why they are hesitent to pay him top #1 money. He is great in big games and has a great work effort and is very smart which is a big plus with Belichick. He is looking at the deal Givens was given and is basing his demands on that (he wants more). The Pats are saying that Tenn overpaid. He doesn't have the same bargaining power as Seymour when he held out . He will have to come back . My opinion is that the Pats want to keep cap space free to see if they can get Law. Branch will get his new contract when everything else (rookies ect.. ) are taken care of.

[Kaylore]

Branch is not a legitiamte #1 receiver in the sense he can be doubled up on and taken out of the play because of his size. Which is why they are hesitent to pay him top #1 money. He is great in big games and has a great work effort and is very smart which is a big plus with Belichick. He is looking at the deal Givens was given and is basing his demands on that (he wants more). The Pats are saying that Tenn overpaid. He doesn't have the same bargaining power as Seymour when he held out . He will have to come back . My opinion is that the Pats want to keep cap space free to see if they can get Law. Branch will get his new contract when everything else (rookies ect.. ) are taken care of. I think he should get what Givens was given, but probably not more than that. What're the thoughts from the Pats camp? You guys are thin at receiver, so this probably is a little bit of a timing move on Branch's part.

[Crowpointer]

Yeah.

Crow, what do you think about Branch holding out. What's his value to the pats? Also...what would you think about a Lelie for Graham trade?

If you've addressed these before...sorry...but I am not a strong reader so it takes me awhile to catch up on things. What...with having to sound out all the words and all.
Graham was a #1 pick (21 overall) and is the best blocking TE on the team. It would hurt the run game to lose him especially with Fauria gone. But he is on the last year of his contract and if they feel he is gone after this year then maybe it would be worth the risk. His pass catching has been a disappointment. Don't know enough about Lelie but after the Bethel Johnson trade for J Sullivan my guess is that anythings possible.

[yavoon]

I think he should get what Givens was given, but probably not more than that. What're the thoughts from the Pats camp? You guys are thin at receiver, so this probably is a little bit of a timing move on Branch's part.

I think he could get more than givens. not sure if he should take less, guess thats up to him.

[Crowpointer]

I think he should get what Givens was given, but probably not more than that. What're the thoughts from the Pats camp? You guys are thin at receiver, so this probably is a little bit of a timing move on Branch's part.
He is doing exactly what Seymour did last year at this time. His shot across the bow is a water pistol unlike Seymours cannon. He wil have to play. I agree they shoul pay him Givens money unfortunately he wants more. Plenty of Wr's in camp, unfortunately they are mostly guys you've never heard of.

[yavoon]

Branch is not a legitiamte #1 receiver in the sense he can be doubled up on and taken out of the play because of his size. Which is why they are hesitent to pay him top #1 money. He is great in big games and has a great work effort and is very smart which is a big plus with Belichick. He is looking at the deal Givens was given and is basing his demands on that (he wants more). The Pats are saying that Tenn overpaid. He doesn't have the same bargaining power as Seymour when he held out . He will have to come back . My opinion is that the Pats want to keep cap space free to see if they can get Law. Branch will get his new contract when everything else (rookies ect.. ) are taken care of.

like steve smith and marvin harrison?

[listopencil]

Damn, we could have had Dennis Northcutt.

[Kaylore]

I think he could get more than givens.
Probably could.

[Rascal]

We jockeyed our way up to get a QB...in case you missed it we also jockeyed our way up for a WR.

I've said this before. If you are using the drafting of Cutler as a move to show the team is not happy with Plummer, then you have no choice but to say the exact same thing with the WR's in the trading of Walker, drafting of marshall and hixon, picking up terrell and others.

If we are revamping our WR's that much it is clearly not all Plummer, and if you continue to say so you are being irrational no matter what you say.

[Rascal]

Jake had a lot of drops from receivers and he's lost offensive talent. This was a great way to give him more targets to play with.


I tried arguing this point with TJ several months ago but he was of the opinion that the talent last year was the same when Jake first started here. LOL!!!!

[Rascal]

That's not true Taco. Branch gets off the line very well. I don't understand why you want to discount his flat out dominant Super Bowl game. It's funny how they put a SUPER BOWL game on the shoulders of some overrated WR. This is not the one reason why he's a very good receiver. It will be very difficult for any receiver to put up big numbers in that Pats Offense.

To swith back to the actual topic I think OZ hit the nail on the head. Sure he isn't going to be a #1 in the sense of TO, Moss, Chad Jackson, hopefully Javon, etc. But combined with Javon he would be an incredible #2. And the talk of him being a pansy...I'd like to see something concrete on that.

Not that this matters anyway as there is no way we will be getting him. But hopefully it helps us land Graham.

[Taco John]

We jockeyed our way up to get a QB...in case you missed it we also jockeyed our way up for a WR.

I've said this before. If you are using the drafting of Cutler as a move to show the team is not happy with Plummer, then you have no choice but to say the exact same thing with the WR's in the trading of Walker, drafting of marshall and hixon, picking up terrell and others.

If we are revamping our WR's that much it is clearly not all Plummer, and if you continue to say so you are being irrational no matter what you say.


I have zero problem about saying that about our WRs. Clearly, Shanahan was more concerned that we needed to fix our problems on offense than he was concerned about our defense. That's not to say we didn't have problems on our defense. It's just to say that our staff thought that it was more important to fix what was wrong with offense.

[Taco John]

I tried arguing this point with TJ several months ago but he was of the opinion that the talent last year was the same when Jake first started here. LOL!!!!


The biggest difference being Sharpe. Aside from that, our offensive line has done nothing but improve, and we've gotten simililar production at runningback using a committee approach. I sure don't see some huge drop-off like you seem to indicate.

In any case, we drafted a quarterback to replace Jake anyway, so it all seems pretty moot at this point.

[NOLA Bronco]

To swith back to the actual topic I think OZ hit the nail on the head. Sure he isn't going to be a #1 in the sense of TO, Moss, Chad Jackson, hopefully Javon, etc. But combined with Javon he would be an incredible #2. And the talk of him being a pansy...I'd like to see something concrete on that.

Not that this matters anyway as there is no way we will be getting him. But hopefully it helps us land Graham.

Rod Smith isn't getting younger. Javon better be a #1 in a couple years. I don't want the Broncos to be the redskins where they over pay for the free agent de jure for a guy that will probably only go 50-700.

[Bronco Yoda]

I think it was also big gun envy. Look how many years it's been since we've even got to pick in the top 10. I believe we're holding the record right now for not getting a pick in the top 10. Pretty soon we'll make it to TWO DECADES. While every other team seems to get their shiny new toys now and then. Heck even Elway was a trade not a pick.

I thought for sure Raiders were going to pluck Cutler. Cutler was just too good to pass up. Besides..... I think we learned from the 'CP trade' that anything is possible with Mike and everyone can be used for good trade bait if so needed....

[WABronco]

Branch is simply holding out for a contract extension. He's a FA after this year. It's a similar situation to Seymour's last year where he got a sweetened deal for '05 plus an extension later on that year.

[Willynowei]

He has the same negatives that Lelie has... He's not big on contact. He's slow off the line and has troubles with the jam, though he uses his size well to find the open space. And, unlike Lelie, he's a small target.

He's not what you're cracking him out to be. But don't let me interrupt the hype parade. Please, carry on...

I think the way you worded makes it seem like the guy has a lot more weaknesses than he does. Let me reword that.

He's small, therefore if there is contact at the line of scrimmage, he's slow comming off the line against the jam vs. bigger corners. His size also makes him a smaller target.

There, its easy to see his slur of weakness is really just one: size.

However, I won't bore you with what he's good at which heavily outweigh his weaknesses, but to keep it simple, his quickness and precise route running often get him open and he's often shown reliable hands when he does get open.

Put simply, Branch is a better player than he is a talent, where as Lelie is a much better talent than he is a player. Lelie doesn't have size or speed troubles. He has elite talent. Despite all these abilities, he still gets jammed at the line, still gets run off his route and still has drops balls after he gets open.

[WABronco]

NE ain't trading Branch...so we can just end that whole discussion right about......now.

[fontaine]

The biggest difference being Sharpe. Aside from that, our offensive line has done nothing but improve, and we've gotten simililar production at runningback using a committee approach. I sure don't see some huge drop-off like you seem to indicate.

In any case, we drafted a quarterback to replace Jake anyway, so it all seems pretty moot at this point.

I know what you're saying. Plummer's 50% completion percentage is unacceptable and Shanahan's already gone on record so far and said one of the major things they are practicing to improve on is 3rd downs.

But let's not point the finger at one guy when the problems on offense are systematic.

Yes, the Broncos grabbed Cutler and you have a point there, but who did they try to grab that is going to make more of an immediate impact months before they even considered drafting QBOTF? An impact WR and they finally got one in Walker.

Our passing offense was more than just predictable last year, it was pathetic. When you don't have a legit blocking or pass catching TE, can't go three set deep at WR, and none of your RBs can catch the ball, AND your number 2 WR is one trick pony straight line running pansy then your passing offense has every right to suck. That pretty much strikes out the majority of the playbook.

Plays to the TE on 3rd down(Sharpe): Gone
Plays to the number 2 WR on 3rd down(Eddie): Gone
Plays to the pass catching RB on 3rd (Portis): Gone

Offenses are all about high percentage plays generated from mismatches. Just who the hell did we have that was going to give us a mismatch?

Fact is, with a great running game, OL, Shanahan's offense, AND, yes, AND Plummer's abilities we were able to generate an ok passing game when we had no right to. Without Plummer's solid decision making, roll outs, mobility etc we would have been far worse in the passing game.

I said last year that we were a one WR team. Defenses found it easy to gameplan against our passing game because Lelie was a straight line runner, our TEs were inadequate, we didn't have a number 3 WR. Teams just had to account for Rod on third downs and they did so reasonabley well. Rod is still a great possession WR but he can be taken out on 3rd downs by the CB playing to protect the first down marker rather than the reception.

I would say that Plummer did far more to improve the passing game rather than hurt it.

To be brutally honest our wideouts collectively last year were bottom of the AFC. Without Rod Smith, there were college programs that had more talent than Lelie/Putz/Alexander/Devoe/Adams.

[fontaine]

What do you know. Someone actually agrees with me for once!
:approve:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_3923136

As Cutler learns a new playbook and Plummer becomes familiar with new offensive coordinator Mike Heimerdinger, don't be surprised if the Broncos mix in a slightly higher percentage of pass plays this season.

The play of Plummer, and perhaps Cutler, is one reason. The addition of Walker is another. Opposing defenses also may force an adjustment.

The Broncos threatened the record book last season when Mike Anderson (1,014 yards) and Tatum Bell (921) nearly became the NFL's fourth backfield duo to rush for 1,000 yards each and the first to share the milestone while splitting time at tailback.

After the season, Anderson was released to free agency and was signed by Baltimore, leaving the Broncos' famed tailback committee to Dayne and Bell, with Cedric Cobbs running third. If opponents make stopping the run a priority in 2006, the Broncos think they have the weapons to adjust.
As Lelie knows, Rod Smith is the No. 1 receiver. What Lelie may not know is Smith has nine consecutive seasons of at least 70 catches, significant when considering that Jerry Rice, who holds nearly every receiving record, never had more than eight straight 70-catch seasons.

This year, instead of having Lelie run fly routes down the other side of the field, Smith figures to have help from Walker for those tougher catches in traffic. Walker was superb for Green Bay in 2004, when he made 89 catches for 1,382 yards and 12 touchdowns, but he missed virtually all of last season after he ripped his anterior cruciate ligament in a season-opening loss at Detroit's Ford Field.

[BroncoInferno]

He has the same negatives that Lelie has...

No, he doesn't. You obviously have not seen enough of Branch, or else you would know this is just flat wrong. His lack of size aside, he is very good running short routes, grabbing the pass, and making yards after the catch. Lelie does those two things poorly.

[Man-Goblin]

This is a good post.

I know what you're saying. Plummer's 50% completion percentage is unacceptable and Shanahan's already gone on record so far and said one of the major things they are practicing to improve on is 3rd downs.

But let's not point the finger at one guy when the problems on offense are systematic.

Yes, the Broncos grabbed Cutler and you have a point there, but who did they try to grab that is going to make more of an immediate impact months before they even considered drafting QBOTF? An impact WR and they finally got one in Walker.

Our passing offense was more than just predictable last year, it was pathetic. When you don't have a legit blocking or pass catching TE, can't go three set deep at WR, and none of your RBs can catch the ball, AND your number 2 WR is one trick pony straight line running pansy then your passing offense has every right to suck. That pretty much strikes out the majority of the playbook.

Plays to the TE on 3rd down(Sharpe): Gone
Plays to the number 2 WR on 3rd down(Eddie): Gone
Plays to the pass catching RB on 3rd (Portis): Gone

Offenses are all about high percentage plays generated from mismatches. Just who the hell did we have that was going to give us a mismatch?

Fact is, with a great running game, OL, Shanahan's offense, AND, yes, AND Plummer's abilities we were able to generate an ok passing game when we had no right to. Without Plummer's solid decision making, roll outs, mobility etc we would have been far worse in the passing game.

I said last year that we were a one WR team. Defenses found it easy to gameplan against our passing game because Lelie was a straight line runner, our TEs were inadequate, we didn't have a number 3 WR. Teams just had to account for Rod on third downs and they did so reasonabley well. Rod is still a great possession WR but he can be taken out on 3rd downs by the CB playing to protect the first down marker rather than the reception.

I would say that Plummer did far more to improve the passing game rather than hurt it.

To be brutally honest our wideouts collectively last year were bottom of the AFC. Without Rod Smith, there were college programs that had more talent than Lelie/Putz/Alexander/Devoe/Adams.

But then again, so is this...

In any case, we drafted a quarterback to replace Jake anyway, so it all seems pretty moot at this point.