O.T. The Rockies pitch religion.

[srt4jam]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060619/zirin

[halfcreek]

Sad.

[Kaylore]

I'm religious and I don't believe that that is right. God gave everyone their talents when they were born knowing full well that they were going to choose to believe certain things. It's not like a certain faith makes you better at some unrelated skill. Suggesting that the talent, skill and work ethic needed to be a champion is limited to a certain group of believers is pretty narrow minded.

If they don't believe that, then they should think about what their real goal as a ball club should be and how this unwritten policy is affecting their team. Are they trying to build a ball club to win baseball games with or one that can quote lots of scripture and deliver a sermon?

[elsid13]

I wonder if they take Sandy Koufax???

[bronco militia]

you guys are two weeks late on this story....

FYI...for sports news, stick with your local media

One of the more disturbing notions to surface from the Rockies players' reactions to last week's USA Today article is they were embarrassed by their Christianity. That is not the case, nor the genesis of their anger.

They were upset because their clubhouse portrayal was inaccurate, casting them recklessly as an exclusionary sect. Many Rockies are religious, but that isn't a requirement for acceptance. As one Rockie told me, "It made us sound like we are all sitting around reading the Bible and those that don't aren't welcome."

http://www.denverpost.com/renck/ci_3896937

Todd Helton and Jennings were quoted supporting the article's premise regarding religion's role in the clubhouse. But both said they never were asked about religion, and were questioned only in general terms about the clubhouse environment.

"I wouldn't say it was accurate. (The writer) asked me about the guys in here and I said it's a good group. We work hard and get along well," Helton said.

http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_3885222

The USA Today article claimed there were no male magazines in the clubhouse, no risque music and rare instances of cursing - a portrayal that was a bit "over the top," in the opinion of Rockies players.

"I get Maxim (a men's magazine) sent to me in the mail in the clubhouse," first baseman Todd Helton said. "Everybody is at a different place in life. We have guys from all over the world (United States, Canada, Taiwan, Korea, Dominican Republic, Mexico and Venezuela). I've been here nine years. It's about the same mix of people, but we have good guys."

Helton said his Christian beliefs are not built around athletics.

"I don't try to be a Christian to be a better baseball player," he said. "I try to be a Christian to be a better person and father. I struggle with it every day, like everyone else in the world. I want to be a better person, like everybody else.

"The story was overblown. I'm not sure what the guy was trying to do. We have good guys who show up every day to play hard and win.

"We're dirtbags, like 99 percent of the world. Maybe worse, because we are baseball players. Some guys are Christians and some guys aren't."

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/mlb/article/0,2777,DRMN_23924_4741695,00.html

[elsid13]

John Thompson actual did a radio show on this in DC area. In general, I understand that you want good character folks working for you, by just define good character as being a certain type of Christan is biased and little stupid. Because people actions are not always defined by how they practice or don't practice their faith. If I was building a team, give me guys that are willing to "fight" you from the parking lot into the stadium, and won't break faith with their teammates, and forget how they pray.

[bronco militia]

The Rockies right now are a noxious reflection of a time in US history when generals speak of crusades and the President recounts his personal conversations with Yahweh. ("You're doing a heckuva job, Goddy!")


that should have been in his opening paragraph...what a waste of time

look out lefties, jesus is coming to take your porn!!

[Kaylore]

The Rockies right now are a noxious reflection of a time in US history when generals speak of crusades and the President recounts his personal conversations with Yahweh. ("You're doing a heckuva job, Goddy!")


that should have been in his opening paragraph...what a waste of time

look out lefties, jesus is coming to take your porn!!
LOL

[Hogan11]

Well.....only God could've got the likes of Josh Fogg and Jose Mesa to play as well as they have.........Ha!

[-Slap-]

look out lefties, jesus is coming to take your porn!!
They'll have to pry it from our dead, cold, greasy fingers.

[Kaylore]

They'll have to pry it from our dead, cold, greasy fingers.
You forgot "sticky".

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

You forgot "sticky".
:rofl:

[broncohaven]

Overblown or not, it's disturbing. I get a little queesy any time someone says "God is using us in a powerful way". It gets dangerous pretty quick when the human mind believes its doing the work of God.

[Florida_Bronco]

Overblown or not, it's disturbing. I get a little queesy any time someone says "God is using us in a powerful way". It gets dangerous pretty quick when the human mind believes its doing the work of God.

Do you mean that you don't believe God uses everyday people to do his work, or do you mean that people who feel they are doing his work actually become warped and cause "problems" instead?

[footstepsfrom#27]

This thread belongs in the Religion and Poltiics section. A few thoughts...

First of all, the last time I cared a thing about baseball, my Orioles won the world series. Half of you weren't born yet...Ha! Second, I know squat about the Rockies. Other than Todd Helton, I couldn't tell you the name of another guy on the roster. I bailed around the time Dante Bichete was let go. It's been at least 10 years since I attended a Rockies game, when ironically...I met Peter Coors standing on the sidewalk outside the stadium and was introduced by somebody to the guy while we waited to get tickets. The Expos beat 'em by 8 I think.

Having said that...and having had more than one unfortunate personal experience with media types taking creative license with facts, I've learned to ask a couple of questions before jumping on the band wagon with anything I see in print.

1) WHO wrote it?
2) WHO published it?

Who published it is already obvious...as "The Nation" has an obvious left-wing slant. Now as to who wrote it...I wondered...who is Dave Zirin and why does he care about the Rockies?

A bit of info on Dave Zirin...I spent very little time on this so if somebody has more...toss it in here. Well the first thing I see is that he's big on fighting for civil rights, which is nice. Now normally, I'm a big fan of white dudes getting involed in championing civil rights and racial equality since I like to do a bit of that myself, but in this case I'd say Zirin's game might have something more to do with promoting his book and his agenda on socialism than his heartfelt desire to fight racism...especially since he's a speaker at the "Socialism 2006 Conference next week at Columbia University (www.edgeofsports.com/tour.html) where I'm pretty sure he'll sell a few books. Whether it has anything to do with that or not, let's at least be aware of where the poltiical context his comments about the Rockies comes from...far left of center. Maybe there's a chance his story on the Rockies "God Squad" is also a shot at notoriety and creating a little fame for himself?

Anyway...this is from Amazon.com on his book called "What's My Name, Fool? Sports and Resistance in the United States" http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/imageDB.cgi?isbn=1931859205 A bit of information that offers a hint of where he might be coming from:
What's My Name, Fool! draws on original interviews with former heavyweight champ George Foreman, Olympian and black power saluter John Carlos, NBA basketball player and anti-death penalty activist Etan Thomas, antiwar women's college hoopster Toni Smith, Olympic Project for Human Rights leader Lee Evans and many others.
I think I get the picture...

Here's a comment from a reader who read the book and offered a review:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1931859205/104-8206493-8661513?v=glance&n=283155
Poorly researched, thin, bias, socialist propaganda, June 11, 2006
Reviewer: Robert Davis "Rob" (Seattle, WA) - See all my reviews

This book is the worst kind of biased liberal journalism in that it implies that everyone with an opposing view is a racist. The book is thin, ignorant of the facts, and one-sided. The book is about black athletes affected by racism, but why does the author always use racism as an excuse for everything? In Zirin's world, no black athlete can be held accountable for his actions, is responsible for his own actions(ie: Ricky Williams, Barry Bonds), and it's disgusting the way the author uses racism as a defense mechanism to any counter view. Worse, I believe the author is dishonest. He takes his point of view, not because he believes what he says, but because it's the only platform he can find to write inside of. Besides that, the book is thin, poorly researched, and the interviews are self-serving. Is there any athletes' behavior that offends this author?
We've long since left the era where sports journalism was about journalism...see Skip Bayless and Woody Paige for prime examples of how sports writers now view sports as a platform to stir controversy instead of merely reporting on the games in order to define themselves as "real" journalists instead of talking heads and as a curious byproduct most "real journalists" don't enjoy...make a ton of extra cash. I'm not sure exactly what Dave Zirin's personal views are on religion but perhaps these comments offers a window on his objectives AND his objectivity. The second statement is a quote by Tom Krattenmaker of the USA Today that Zirin references, another sports writer pushing a book who seems to share his views:

"When people are nervous that they will offend you with their beliefs, it's usually because their beliefs are offensive."

"Have the Colorado Rockies become a faith-based organization? This can be particularly problematic when the religion in question is one that makes exclusive claims and sometimes denigrates the validity of other belief systems."

My point here is not whether the article on the Rockies is accurate or not, since it seems the subsequent story in the Rocky Mountain News seems to already debunk most of what was presented by Zirin, but rather that the author has an obvious axe to grind. Several statements of logical inconsistency also appear in the article:

1) "...the Colorado Rockies went public with the news that the organization has been explicitly looking for players with "character." And according to the Tribe of Coors, "character" means accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior."

The author attempts to prove by this statement that the Rockies are "intollerant" of other religious views, but nowhere in the statements quoted by the members of the team did I notice anything to justify Zirin's assertion that the Rockies view character only in terms of Christianity. If the team's mangement believes evangelicals possess character, that's doesn't neccessarily mean that they think other's don't also. But Zirin strongly leads the reader to believe that's what they think, despite the fact he admits that the team has other players on the roster that aren't Christians.

2) Zirin accuses the Rockies of racism as well...always a nice way to gain attention if you're lacking anything else of substance:

"Also, there are only two African-American players on the Rockies active roster. Is this because Monfort doesn't think black players have character? Does the organization endorse the statement of its stadium's namesake, William Coors, who told a group of black businessmen in 1984 that Africans "lack the intellectual capacity to succeed, and it's taking them down the tubes"? These are admittedly difficult questions. But these are the questions that need to be posed when the wafting odor of discrimination clouds the air."

There's no doubt William Coors was and probably still is a racist if you do 5 minutes worth of research on this dude. Not to suprising though since there's a fair chance that MOST ultra wealthy white guys born in 1916 who attended an Ivy League school probably were, and if they weren't we wouldn't remember the name Jackie Robinson as we do. But Zirin is out of bounds on two accounts. First, the stadium isn't named for William Coors like he implies, and he knows that, which makes his statement dissengenuous. Second, according to Wikipedia, he's no longer involved with the Coors Brewing Company in executive leadership anyway, and is now running the Castle Rock Foundation, the company's philanthropy foundation, a non profit entitiy. In any case, I don't get why his former association with Coors is somehow an excuse to accuse or suggest the Rockies Chalie Monfor is a racist. Since I don't follow the Rockies, perhaps there's more I'm not aware of, but I get the feelling if there was, Dave Zirin would definitely be the guy to find it out. Since he doesn't offer anything more...it's probably because he can't.

3) Again quotiing Krattenmake...this curiosity:

"Taxpayers and ticket-buyers in a religiously diverse community have a right not to see their team--a quasi-public resource--used for the purpose of advancing a specific form of religion."

Excuse me? Taxpayers and ticket buyers have NO such right. They have the same "rights" all sports consumers do...to vote for or against the practices of a business with their wallets. Major League Baseball teams are not "quasi-public rsources"...whatever that is. They're privately owned companies that market a service to their market customer base. Fans and political pundits have no more right to tell the Rockies management how to stock their team in terms of looking for character than they do to decide which pitchers start or who bats cleanup. According to Krattenmake, a pro sports team should reflect the religious diversity of it's community. That's complete idiocy. Based on this nonsense, the Boston Red Sox should be mostly Catholic while the Utah Jazz ought to be comprised almost entirely of Mormons. No such protests are heard from Krattenmake or Zirin with regard to the rampant proliferation of behavior among pro athlets who express values wildly out of touch with the rest of society when these values are not defined as religious in nature, or for that matter when they conflict with ALL religious values. Or is criminal behavior excused as long as it's not attached to the idea that religion is somehow involved? Why aren't these guys holding team's that DON'T look for charachter responsible? Because...after all...don't the fans of these "quasi-public resources" have the right to see them NOT exemplify criminal conduct?

I don't have a problem with Zirin's view point...but lets be clear where that view point comes from...shall we?

[Nuggets4]

I don't have a problem with Zirin's view point...but lets be clear where that view point comes from...shall we?

You do realize that the article in question comes from USA Today, don't you? This is just a reaction article.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You do realize that the article in question comes from USA Today, don't you? This is just a reaction article.
I realize the orginal article was in USA Today but I was more interested in the link in post #1 to the story in The Nation.

[BroncoBuff]

Now we know what happened to Shawn Chacon ...

[DomCasual]

Now we know what happened to Shawn Chacon ...
Hey, that trade is looking okay right now. Chacon is on the DL, and Ramon Ramirez, save his ugly outing the other night, has been lights out.

Maybe if Pat Bowlen found religion, we could land Reggie Bush.

[BroncoBuff]

Hey, that trade is looking okay right now. Chacon is on the DL, and Ramon Ramirez, save his ugly outing the other night, has been lights out.

Maybe if Pat Bowlen found religion, we could land Reggie Bush.
ROFL! :pray:

[ludo21]

I think this is awesome.

[broncohaven]

Do you mean that you don't believe God uses everyday people to do his work, or do you mean that people who feel they are doing his work actually become warped and cause "problems" instead?
Both