Is Wie ever going to make the cut? Women alongside men? [Archive] - The Orange Mane

Dagmar

06-05-2006, 04:29 PM

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060605/060605_michelle_wie_hmed_8a.h2.jpg

Michelle Wie put on a show Monday that those lucky enough to see won’t soon forget.

Trying to become the first woman to qualify for the U.S. Open, the 16-year-old from Hawaii sent an overflow gallery into a frenzy by chipping in for birdie on the last hole of the first round for a 2-under 68. That matched her best score competing against men and left some 3,500 people wondering if they would see her at Winged Foot in two weeks along with Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson.

But the birdie putts she missed throughout the day began to catch up with her as shadows stretched across the fairways of Canoe Brook Country Club late in the afternoon. Three consecutive bogeys on her back nine dropped her back to 1-over par through 35 holes, leaving her on the outside looking in for one of 18 spots in the open up for grabs at this sectional qualifying tournament.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13133990/

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/6711/beeradvertizing10ne.jpg

What are peoples thoughts regarding women competing alongside the men?
It seems like it is inevitable it will happen...

Personally I'm worried who's gonna be left to do the cooking and ironing...but that may just be me. :angel:

Bronco_Beerslug

06-05-2006, 05:08 PM

She's already made a cut in a men's tourney.

Garcia Bronco

06-05-2006, 05:14 PM

She was inches away...still a great accomplishment to even try at her age....as she progresses...she'll be very competitive amongst the men IMO. She can hit a ball 300 yards. Seh just needs the short game.

I don't have a problem with it. In some sports it just wouldn't work out right in this era...but one day....who knows.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun

06-05-2006, 05:40 PM

Dagmar

06-05-2006, 05:46 PM

Personally I think Golf is a little different than other sports. In golf Its really you Vs. the course. I mean in golf where are you going to see Tiger Woods tackle Phil Meckelson or watch someone need to box out on a inside post. My point is that there is no phyiscal contact between opponents.

I'm not suggesting women as linebackers or anything. Men competing against women in tennis, or golf... Not sure about any of the big 4 sports over here in the States...

Archie

06-05-2006, 06:07 PM

azbroncfan

06-05-2006, 06:30 PM

She may get there.... She's pretty unique but really the key for women on the tour comes down (I think) to the drives. If you can get to the point where you are not playing 70 yards behind the men on your second shot then you have a real shot - everything else is pretty normal.

She's longer off the tee than most of the men, she falls in to the middle of the pack. I wish she would try and win something on the womens tour first then maybe try for the mens. She will get into a major at some point in her career because she's 16 or 17.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun

06-05-2006, 06:33 PM

I'm not suggesting women as linebackers or anything. Men competing against women in tennis, or golf... Not sure about any of the big 4 sports over here in the States...

Not saying that you were saying that. Just saying that Golf is unique and if there is a place for women to compete against men would be Golf.

Jetmeck

06-05-2006, 06:39 PM

Personally I think Golf is a little different than other sports. In golf Its really you Vs. the course. I mean in golf where are you going to see Tiger Woods tackle Phil Meckelson or watch someone need to box out on a inside post. My point is that there is no phyiscal contact between opponents.

Exactly right, golf is not your average sport. It is kind of a wussy sport anyway so why not let women play. Some might say golf is not even a sport. Bowling would be another example.

azbroncfan

06-05-2006, 06:47 PM

Not saying that you were saying that. Just saying that Golf is unique and if there is a place for women to compete against men would be Golf.
Not really because you could take any nationwide tour player and he would dominate the LPGA. If the women can qualify more power too them, I just don't like see them giving them sponsor exemptions in place of someone who could win the tourny.

broncohaven

06-05-2006, 06:53 PM

Wie needs to take a lesson from Earl Woods who taught Tiger to dominate at each successive level before moving on. By the time Tiger got to the PGA Tour he knew how to be a dominant player. Wie has won only a single tournament in her life, and none against professional women. I think her focus is a little off, and I think that the Nike machine has ahold of her and are turning her into more of a sideshow as opposed to letting her develop into the great player that she could be.

To me a win on the LPGA Tour would be worlds more impressive than making the cut at the Hee Haw Asian open.

Garcia Bronco

06-05-2006, 06:55 PM

Jason in LA

06-05-2006, 07:02 PM

azbroncfan

06-05-2006, 07:08 PM

Golf is a non-athletic sport, and the fact that a woman can compete with the men proves that. Before you golf fans jump on me, I'm not saying that golf is easy. It's an extremely hard sport to play. It's just played by highly skilled non-athletes. If golfers were athletes, then a woman wouldn't be able to play on their tour.

The only other sports that I can think of where a woman can compete with the men are pool and bowling, which are both non-athletic sports. I've never seen a woman compete with them, but I'd think that men wouldn't hold much of an advantage over women in those sports, if any advantage at all.

In any athletic sport, women cannot compete with men. Take the top woman in the WNBA. No way she could make an NBA roster. You'll never see a woman playing pro football, not even college unless it's as a kicker. And that hasn't really worked. Women won't be able to play baseball. Not track. The top high school boys run faster times than the women's world records.

Tennis was brought up as a possible sport that women could play with the men. Sorry, but that doesn't work either. The top women would struggle against men who aren't even close to being ranked.

Now, I'm not here bashing women. I'm just answering the question. I enjoy some women's sports. Women's tennis is more exciting than the mens. I like watching women run at track events. Women have every right to play sports. The point is that we won't see any women playing with the men in any athletic sport.

I agree with most of what you said there but women cannot compete with men in the world of golf.

watermock

06-05-2006, 07:16 PM

She havn't proven anything and never has made a cut once. Her days of exemptions are coming to an end. It was very convienient to have Nike throw 20 million in her pockets but it doesn't give her a PGA cut.

Flyboy063

06-05-2006, 07:27 PM

I think if women are going to be allowed to play in the PGA, then they should get rid of the LPGA plain and simple. If men can't have a men's league then women shouldn't have a women's league. Just to clarify I have no problem with women competing against men. I do have a problem with women wanting to join a men's league, but not wanting to give up there league.

For example of what I'm talking about bowling use to be ABC (Men's) and WIBC (Women's) leagues, now there is the USBC (mixed) which is good in theory. However, the thing I don't agree with is they have a Women's only tournament and replaced the Men's only tournament with a mixed tournament.

No1BroncoFan

06-05-2006, 07:31 PM

The only other sports that I can think of where a woman can compete with the men are pool and bowling, which are both non-athletic sports.
You're dead wrong about bowling, as anyone who's bowled seriously can tell you. There's more athleticism needed than the laymen think. Most women also can't compete at the same level as men, which is why you see few, if any women on the PBA tour.

Ben

Garcia Bronco

06-05-2006, 07:38 PM

What about billiards?...Or Darts?...huh?

Jason in LA

06-05-2006, 07:41 PM

You're dead wrong about bowling, as anyone who's bowled seriously can tell you. There's more athleticism needed than the laymen think. Most women also can't compete at the same level as men, which is why you see few, if any women on the PBA tour.

Ben

Bowling is a non-athletic sport. There are guys who are out of shape who are great at that game. It's a skill.

azbroncfan

06-05-2006, 07:43 PM

Bowling is a non-athletic sport. There are guys who are out of shape who are great at that game. It's a skill.

Baseball could be considered a non-athletic sport then, John Kruk, Boomer, the closer Beck.

Jason in LA

06-05-2006, 07:48 PM

I agree with most of what you said there but women cannot compete with men in the world of golf.

One already is.

Wie nearly making the cut is like a woman making it to the final cut down date in football. Or a woman being fast enough to run with the men in the Olympic trials.

The gap between men and women is much larger in athletic sports than in non-athletic sports like golf. In golf a woman can at least be on the playing field and beat some of the men. In a sport like track, you could take the fastest woman on the planet and she wouldn't be able to make the 100 meter finals for the boys high school state finals in California.

Jason in LA

06-05-2006, 07:50 PM

Baseball could be considered a non-athletic sport then, John Kruk, Boomer, the closer Beck.

Those guys had enough power to hit the ball out of the park. And they had to have strong throwing arms. Being an athlete doesn't mean being slim and fast. I don't think a bowler can do much of anything outside of rolling that ball down the lane. Well, he probably could carry a keg all by himself. But that's pure motivation.

rbackfactory80

06-05-2006, 07:55 PM

I agree with most of what you said there but women cannot compete with men in the world of golf.

For real she is a freak of nature. In golf 99.9 percent of women can't compete with men. I think you could say the same about almost any sport. Golf takes extreme coordination, I do not know any unathletic people who are good at golf. Mentally it can be extremely tough. There will always be that guy that comes in and says golf is not a sport, and as an avid golfer, I just laugh to myself as I am so used to hearing it.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun

06-05-2006, 07:56 PM

Not really because you could take any nationwide tour player and he would dominate the LPGA. If the women can qualify more power too them, I just don't like see them giving them sponsor exemptions in place of someone who could win the tourny.

Then it wouldn't be a competition would it. Part of sports is competing against somebody that can challenge you skills. You don't want to be a two legged guy in a one legged ass kicking contest.

azbroncfan

06-05-2006, 07:57 PM

One already is.

Wie nearly making the cut is like a woman making it to the final cut down date in football. Or a woman being fast enough to run with the men in the Olympic trials.

The gap between men and women is much larger in athletic sports than in non-athletic sports like golf. In golf a woman can at least be on the playing field and beat some of the men. In a sport like track, you could take the fastest woman on the planet and she wouldn't be able to make the 100 meter finals for the boys high school state finals in California.

She's getting in on sponsors exemptions, not Q school or monday qualifiers. She not getting in playing against college men let alone nationwide or PGA tour players. The most dominant female golfer ever didn't even sniff the cut, they are also picking easier courses, there isn't a women who could break 80 in a US open in my opinion.

No1BroncoFan

06-05-2006, 07:59 PM

Bowling is a non-athletic sport. There are guys who are out of shape who are great at that game. It's a skill.
You obviously don't bowl, at least not on a regular basis. Yes, there is skill involved, but if you think it's devoid of all athletic ability you're sadly mistaken.

Ben

Bronco_Beerslug

06-05-2006, 08:25 PM

I don't think a bowler can do much of anything outside of rolling that ball down the lane.
Amazing you know everyone in the world that bowls and none of them could do anything else but bowl.

The point is that we won't see any women playing with the men in any athletic sport.
I know of a couple women that could knock you out, does that count as a sport?

Women are competing with, close to or on the same level as men in all kinds of sports these days, auto racing, gymnastics, skating, big game fishing and hunting, horse racing, etc, etc...

Garcia Bronco

06-05-2006, 08:38 PM

For real she is a freak of nature. In golf 99.9 percent of women can't compete with men. I think you could say the same about almost any sport. Golf takes extreme coordination, I do not know any unathletic people who are good at golf. Mentally it can be extremely tough. There will always be that guy that comes in and says golf is not a sport, and as an avid golfer, I just laugh to myself as I am so used to hearing it.

Anything can be a sport....athletic is another matter. Golf is more accessible now than ever....I thnk you'll see all types of players come out of the wood work.

Sodak

06-05-2006, 08:45 PM

You're dead wrong about bowling, as anyone who's bowled seriously can tell you. There's more athleticism needed than the laymen think. Most women also can't compete at the same level as men, which is why you see few, if any women on the PBA tour.

Ben

If you can smoke and drink while playing, it's not a sport.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-05-2006, 08:48 PM

If you can smoke and drink while playing, it's not a sport.

Not according to the definition of "sport".

No1BroncoFan

06-05-2006, 09:00 PM

If you can smoke and drink while playing, it's not a sport.
Thank you for that definitive explanation of what is not a sport. So, I guess the guys playing b-ball out in the driveway and drinking while they're playing are not engaging in a sport. Thanks for clearing that up.

BTW, most bowling centers now, like most public establishments, are non-smoking.

Ben

Jason in LA

06-05-2006, 09:13 PM

Amazing you know everyone in the world that bowls and none of them could do anything else but bowl.

I know of a couple women that could knock you out, does that count as a sport?

Women are competing with, close to or on the same level as men in all kinds of sports these days, auto racing, gymnastics, skating, big game fishing and hunting, horse racing, etc, etc...

Yeah, they could probably knock you out too...right?

That's besides the point. I'm sure there are women big and strong enough to fight with an average joe. How does that prove your point? It's not about beating the average joe. The debate is about beating men on a professional level.

In the sport that I was big in, I was well ahead of pro women while I was in high school. I ran track, and my times in high school were faster than the women's world records.

You then bring up non-athletic sports. Big game fishing? Are they athletes now. Women should be able to compete with men in those sports. I don't see how a man would have a competitive advantage.

My point was never that women can't compete with men in any sport. My point is that women cannot compete with men in athletic sports. Name one where a woman is competing with the men in an athletic sport. Has there ever been a woman invited to an NFL training camp? Or an NBA training camp. A woman did play on a minor league baseball team, but that was on the same team that had a guy playing who had no legs. Show me a woman that could run on a men's 4x100 relay team.

Jason in LA

06-05-2006, 09:20 PM

She's getting in on sponsors exemptions, not Q school or monday qualifiers. She not getting in playing against college men let alone nationwide or PGA tour players. The most dominant female golfer ever didn't even sniff the cut, they are also picking easier courses, there isn't a women who could break 80 in a US open in my opinion.

I'll admit that I don't know all of the rules for somebody to play on the men's pro tour. I am aware that she is getting a sponsors exemption.

But when she gets on the course, she does not come in dead last. I don't know if she could qualify on her own, but when she gets there she doesn't get smashed.

If Marion Jones, who has the fastest time in the 100 meter dash for women this track season, got some type of exemption into high school boys 100 meter dash at the state meet, she would come in dead last in the opening heat. Hell, I'd go as far as to say that she'd get ran off the track in most division finals meets, which only have 6-10 schools running.

If Wie was coming in dead last against the men, I could see your point. But she's out there beating some of the men.

In tennis, if the Williams sisters played against the 200th ranked man in the world, he'd kill them.

Golf is a highly skilled sport, which is why women can compete on some level.

BroncoMan4ever

06-05-2006, 09:31 PM

Dagmar

06-05-2006, 09:37 PM

In tennis, if the Williams sisters played against the 200th ranked man in the world, he'd kill them.

Sure don't agree with that one bud.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun

06-05-2006, 09:48 PM

Sure don't agree with that one bud.
Well the average male serve is 120 mph while the best Williams serve in a match is 113 mph. So he's most likely right.

Jason in LA

06-05-2006, 11:58 PM

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/stories2/2002-04-24-usat-mac-williams.htm

"Men are innately faster and stronger, they can cover more court and hit more winners. They have bigger weapons with stronger serves and shots. Consequently, when Venus took a challenge from 100th-ranked Karsten Braasch during the Australian Open in 1998, she lost 6-2. Even though he was ranked quite a bit lower on the men's tour than her top-10 ranking on the women's tour, Braasch was physically stronger and faster. He retrieved and returned her usual winners without a problem. He could outlast her from the baseline or attack with his serve to win comfortably."

"Any good college male player could beat the Williams sisters, and so could any man on the Senior Tour."

— John McEnroe

====================================

http://www.monoli.com/tennis/austra98/battle.htm

It was the Battle of the Sexes without all the glitz, a daring bid by Serena and Venus Williams to back up their bold claim that they could beat any man ranked No. 200 or lower.
Not even close.
The sisters discovered, much to their chagrin, that they're no match for the men on the ATP Tour. At least not yet

First Serena, then Venus challenged No. 203 Karsten Braasch to a set apiece at the Australian Open on Tuesday, and he beat them both. Serena fell 6-1, Venus 6-2. They played as intensely as they could, but Braasch performed with gentlemanly restraint.
"It was extremely hard," said 16-year-old Serena. "I didn't know it would be that hard. I hit shots that would have been winners on the WTA Tour, and he got to them easily."
That didn't stop her from boasting that, "this time next year I'll beat him. I have to pump some weight. . . . I have to work hard to be on the men's tour."
Venus, 17, wasn't about to concede too much, either, especially since she broke Braasch once.
"I can beat men in the 300s and up," she said. "He thought we couldn't get a point. He didn't think we could play. We showed him we could."
Asked if she might not want to take on players on the senior tour, or retired men, as Billie Jean King did against 1939 Wimbledon champion Bobby Riggs in their ballyhooed Battle of the Sexes in 1973, Venus shook her beaded head.

"I'm going for the young guns," she said.
Braasch smiled at their claims.
"Against anyone in the top 500, no chance," he said. "Because I was playing like 600 today."

"I took at least 50 percent off my serve," Braasch said. "I came out with a few hard ones, but not too much because then it's not fun anymore, and it was supposed to be fun."

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 05:01 AM

My point was never that women can't compete with men in any sport. My point is that women cannot compete with men in athletic sports.
No, your point is golf, auto racing, gymnastics, skating, etc... are NOT athletic sports and if someone is bowler they can't possible do anything else in the world.

You have an amazing yap that seems to overload your arse on a daily basis.

gunns

06-06-2006, 05:26 AM

Have to say I'm impressed with some of the comments here. I expected to see a lot of "no way a woman can compete" statements, with grunting and scratching going on.

I will agree that women have a severe disadvantage in athletic sports, unless you've got some of those East German "women" playing. But I do think Wie has shown an awful lot against the men already at the age of 17. I think it's a matter of time before Vijay Singh bursts a blood vessel when she surpasses him. I'll also say that AZbroncfan seems extremely threatened by the whole thing.

-Slap-

06-06-2006, 05:59 AM

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 06:10 AM

This is a really good and accurate post.

It may be what we want to see but Nike is paying her millions to do what she's doing. She's still only 16 so she has plenty of time to start winning tournaments.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 06:44 AM

No, your point is golf, auto racing, gymnastics, skating, etc... are NOT athletic sports and if someone is bowler they can't possible do anything else in the world.

You have an amazing yap that seems to overload your arse on a daily basis.

Still following me around, trying to pick a fight. This is childish.

Mile High Shack

06-06-2006, 06:49 AM

Mile High Shack

06-06-2006, 06:51 AM

Still following me around, trying to pick a fight. This is childish.

stay out of the golf discussions

they are over your little head

Billy Clyde Puckett

06-06-2006, 06:52 AM

I hope it's because she truely wants to do this stuff and not because of a swoosh.

I'm Concerned it is Nike that is pushing this. She has great talent, but she is still a kid who has not won on the women's tour. What other reason could there be than a publicity stunt?

Wait till next year when Nike tells LeBron he should be playing in NY or LA.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 06:55 AM

My neice is faster than any boy on the H.S. hurdles.

She's a sophmore.

You have to remember that the girls run the 100 meter low hurdles. The boys run the 110 meter high hurdles. The times for the top boys and girls and men and women are normally in the same ball park.

The world record for the men's 110 meter hurdles is 12.91. The world record for the women's 100 meter hurdles is 12.21.

What are her times like?

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 06:57 AM

stay out of the golf discussions

they are over your little head

Looks like I've adopted a second person.

So tell me, where am I wrong in this debate.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 07:04 AM

So tell me, where am I wrong in this debate.

Just about every time you open your mouth?

Originally Posted by Jason in LA
I don't think a bowler can do much of anything outside of rolling that ball down the lane.

My point is that women cannot compete with men in athletic sports.

In any athletic sport, women cannot compete with men. .

Arkansas Bronco

06-06-2006, 07:05 AM

The only reason a woman should compete in the PGA is if she is simply dominating in her own field and has no competition. I think the reason they are trying is for publicity and to try and be the first woman to win a tourney against the men.

BABronco

06-06-2006, 07:08 AM

I play rugby in Oklahoma. There are roughly about 14 guy teams in state. I'd bet the worst team would kill any of the 6 girl teams.

Arkansas Bronco

06-06-2006, 07:12 AM

I play rugby in Oklahoma. There are roughly about 14 guy teams in state. I'd bet the worst team would kill any of the 6 girl teams.
I think that is a bit different from women that play a non-contact sport.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 07:12 AM

I play rugby in Oklahoma. There are roughly about 14 guy teams in state. I'd bet the worst team would kill any of the 6 girl teams.
You're kidding?

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 07:18 AM

Just about every time you open your mouth?

So, where am I wrong in any of those statements? Are you going to tell us that fishing is an athletic sport? Oh wait, you already did.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 07:31 AM

So, where am I wrong in any of those statements? Are you going to tell us that fishing is an athletic sport? Oh wait, you already did. So you know that every person in the world that bowls can do nothing else... BRILLIANT!

I already pointed out many sports that women compete at or near the same level of men in.

And FYI, I could take your women hating, all knowing, "great" arse out in the Gulf and wear (complete fatigue) you out in 4 hours or less just catching 40-80 lb fish.

Arkansas Bronco

06-06-2006, 07:33 AM

So you know that every person in the worlds that bowls can do nothing else... BRILLIANT!

I already pointed out many sports that women compete at or near the same level of men in.

And FYI, I could take your women hating, all knowing, "great" arse out in the Gulf and wear (complete fatigue) you out in 4 hours or less just catching 40-80 lb fish.
Uh dont know about him but sounds like fun to me so if he turns ya down I am willing to take his place. :thumbs:

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 07:39 AM

Uh dont know about him but sounds like fun to me so if he turns ya down I am willing to take his place. :thumbs:

:) It's a great time! If you haven't done it before and don't do it all the time, it'll about kill you though (back, wrists and shoulders especially). I learned the hard way taking out a friend from Port A with me. She's all of about 115 lbs and out fished me for the first year down here and I'm 6'1 about 180 with around 12% body fat.

rbackfactory80

06-06-2006, 08:51 AM

:) It's a great time! If you haven't done it before and don't do it all the time, it'll about kill you though (back, wrists and shoulders especially). I learned the hard way taking out a friend from Port A with me. She's all of about 115 lbs and out fished me for the first year down here and I'm 6'1 about 180 with around 12% body fat.

Damn it must be nice just hanging out on the beach in Texas, fishing and playing golf. Thats what I am talking about.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 09:35 AM

Exactly right, golf is not your average sport. It is kind of a wussy sport anyway so why not let women play. Some might say golf is not even a sport. Bowling would be another example.

clearly you dont know how to play golf, or else "wussy" wouldnt be the word you would use to describe it.

go to the range and see what happens.
report back.
it'll be ugly. really really ugly.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 09:39 AM

She's already made a cut in a men's tourney.

uh huh, and what tournament was that?

come on man. an LPGA major has better talent than the mens tourney she played in.

she is an amazing talent, but she CONSISTENTLY chokes down the stretch.
once or twice and i'd chalk it up to bad luck and/or inexperience.
at this point, its just flat out choking, and its as predictable as the rising and setting of the sun.

she needs to learn to WIN.
its cliche, and its been said many times, but its also completely true.
she needs to worry about beating the women before she tries to take on the men.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 09:43 AM

Golf is a non-athletic sport, and the fact that a woman can compete with the men proves that. Before you golf fans jump on me, I'm not saying that golf is easy. It's an extremely hard sport to play. It's just played by highly skilled non-athletes. If golfers were athletes, then a woman wouldn't be able to play on their tour.

The only other sports that I can think of where a woman can compete with the men are pool and bowling, which are both non-athletic sports. I've never seen a woman compete with them, but I'd think that men wouldn't hold much of an advantage over women in those sports, if any advantage at all.

In any athletic sport, women cannot compete with men. Take the top woman in the WNBA. No way she could make an NBA roster. You'll never see a woman playing pro football, not even college unless it's as a kicker. And that hasn't really worked. Women won't be able to play baseball. Not track. The top high school boys run faster times than the women's world records.

Tennis was brought up as a possible sport that women could play with the men. Sorry, but that doesn't work either. The top women would struggle against men who aren't even close to being ranked.

Now, I'm not here bashing women. I'm just answering the question. I enjoy some women's sports. Women's tennis is more exciting than the mens. I like watching women run at track events. Women have every right to play sports. The point is that we won't see any women playing with the men in any athletic sport.

just so you know, she ISNT competing against the men.

she's TRYING, and she's failing.

beyond that, you have to go back DECADES to find another woman who competed with the men (babe zaharias) and it aint like she won either.

the women CANT compete with the men in golf.

why?

because golf IS an athletic sport.
not as MUCH athleticism is required (as opposed to coordination), but make no mistake. it takes athleticism.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 09:45 AM

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 09:47 AM

Bowling is a non-athletic sport. There are guys who are out of shape who are great at that game. It's a skill.

okay, lets presume youre correct (and you arent).

then please explain why NO women have ever won a PGA event or even a PBA event?

the reason is that they dont have the same strength and athleticism.

dont be fooled my friend.

just because you can have a big gut and still play doesnt mean its not athletic.

jake

Arkansas Bronco

06-06-2006, 09:49 AM

I think all those that are arguing that golf isnt a sport must have the belief that you must run to make it a sport.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 09:50 AM

If you can smoke and drink while playing, it's not a sport.

then i guess babe ruth wasnt an athlete and baseball isnt a sport.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 09:58 AM

Yeah, they could probably knock you out too...right?

That's besides the point. I'm sure there are women big and strong enough to fight with an average joe. How does that prove your point? It's not about beating the average joe. The debate is about beating men on a professional level.

In the sport that I was big in, I was well ahead of pro women while I was in high school. I ran track, and my times in high school were faster than the women's world records.

You then bring up non-athletic sports. Big game fishing? Are they athletes now. Women should be able to compete with men in those sports. I don't see how a man would have a competitive advantage.

My point was never that women can't compete with men in any sport. My point is that women cannot compete with men in athletic sports. Name one where a woman is competing with the men in an athletic sport. Has there ever been a woman invited to an NFL training camp? Or an NBA training camp. A woman did play on a minor league baseball team, but that was on the same team that had a guy playing who had no legs. Show me a woman that could run on a men's 4x100 relay team.

here's where we agree:

women can NOT compete with men in sports.

here's where we disagree:

what constitutes "sport" and/or "athlete".

so, how would you feel if i said you werent an athlete because all you did was run?
there's no coordination necessary right?
you just need to run fast.
thats not an athlete. its just someone who can run fast.

before you go off the deep end, i dont believe that.
im just playing devils advocate, and you saying golf isnt athletic is the same as me saying track doesnt take coordination.
my dad was a track coach. i KNOW how much more than just running fast is involved.
that said, most people DONT know how much more is involved, just as YOU dont know how much more than what you see is involved in golf.

women CANT compete with men in golf.
why?

because it requires way too much coordination AND athletic ability.

Arkansas Bronco

06-06-2006, 09:59 AM

Bowling is a non-athletic sport. There are guys who are out of shape who are great at that game. It's a skill.
Speaking on this some of the PBA members can throw a 15/16lb ball well over 30 miles an hour (spare straight shots, Robert Smith has hit the 34 mph mark and I would be real impressed if you could stay at 20mph for 3 frames in a row) and that takes a good bit of strength add to that the ability to throw it exactly where you need it well that makes it a sport.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 10:00 AM

Name one where a woman is competing with the men in an athletic sport. Has there ever been a woman invited to an NBA training camp.

ann meyers

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 10:01 AM

it was a travesty, but it happened.

Archie

06-06-2006, 10:04 AM

Really depends on how you define "compete". If you point is that the she's not winning - ok great, your right. But that's not Jason's point. His point, which I think is well taken, is that at least Wie is "in the ball park" in competing with the men. Heck - if she sinks her birdie putts the other day she's still in for the Open Qualifer - possibly making her way into a mens Major thru fair competition. She didn't make it - but it's not like the entire male field wiped her out entirely - she fell short but she's definitely wtihin striking distance.

That's very different then all the other sports we've discussed (Track, Tennis, Football, Basketball, etc..) where even the very best female competitors in the world are easily defeated not just by the best male competitors but by male competitors competiting several levles down from even the top level.

I'll not be surprised if Wie makes the cut in a PGA event in the future. She's pretty damn good. But I'll make two other observations. One - as others have said - she really ought to get out there and win some LPGA tournaments and prove something on that tour. And two, I've wondered if as she matures physically if her body changes in a way that diminishes her ability to compete at the higher level. I have no idea but it seems plausible.

just so you know, she ISNT competing against the men.

she's TRYING, and she's failing.

beyond that, you have to go back DECADES to find another woman who competed with the men (babe zaharias) and it aint like she won either.

the women CANT compete with the men in golf.

why?

because golf IS an athletic sport.
not as MUCH athleticism is required (as opposed to coordination), but make no mistake. it takes athleticism.

redrage

06-06-2006, 10:14 AM

ann meyers
I thought Nancy Leiberman was invited once, but I could be wrong.

redrage

06-06-2006, 10:20 AM

Personally, I think Wie is just in it for the attention. That's the logical conclusion isn't it?

Look at all the pub she got just for attempting to QUALIFY for the US open. One day she may do it and that would be a hell of a feat, but that's a LOOONNGGG way from saying she has the talent to compete with PGA players on a consistent basis.

I mean is there any chance in hell that she will EVER even remotely contend in a men's tourney? If the answer is no (and it is a resounding no), then all she really is accomplishing is saying that she played in the same tournament. Big whoop. If she really wanted to go down as one of the greats, she would focus on dominating the LPGA.

-Slap-

06-06-2006, 10:29 AM

I think all those that are arguing that golf isnt a sport must have the belief that you must run to make it a sport.
I think the interpretation of what constitutes a sport can vary from one individual to the next. The strictest interpretation that has some merit: If there's nobody playing defense, its not a sport. Everything else is a competition, like first one to eat 50 hot dogs or golf.

:strong:

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 10:37 AM

she'll make the cut eventually.....maybe even make the cut for sat and sunday

as long as she is qualifying and not taking away an automatic bid from a guy who has earned his stripes, I'm all for it.

I still think she needs to actually win on the LPGA tour first

she never has qualified.
every event she's played in has been a sponsors exemption, and therefore every event has also taken a spot away from a deserving male.

annika in her prime couldnt make the cut and she played her best golf those two days.
wie is an AMAZING talent, but she likely wont be able to compete with the men either, and even if at some point she COULD compete with the men she might want to learn to win a womens tourney first, because right now she chokes EVERY single time she is in contention for anything.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 10:39 AM

Personally, I think Wie is just in it for the attention. That's the logical conclusion isn't it?

No

defenseman

06-06-2006, 10:40 AM

Routinely make it. NO. The exception to the rule occassionally qualifying , I'm sure. it's my understanding she does not take away a shot for someone whose earned their stripes..dman

Clockwork Orange

06-06-2006, 10:40 AM

I still believe that we're going to see a female goaltender in the NHL some day. It nearly happened back in the 90's.

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nhl/tampa/MRheaumeTB_185x250.jpg
http://www.kuklaskorner.com/images/uploads/manon_r2_thumb.jpg

Manon Rheaume once played in a preseason game for the Tampa Bay Lightning. My buddies and I agreed that we'd like to be the man on Rheaume. :wiggle:

defenseman

06-06-2006, 10:40 AM

She is in it for the moola, what else is there..dman

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 10:41 AM

uh huh, and what tournament was that?
come on man. an LPGA major has better talent than the mens tourney she played in.
she is an amazing talent, but she CONSISTENTLY chokes down the stretch.

She's 16 and hasn't learned how to play under pressure or putt yet. To say she can't play with the men is speculation at best.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 10:44 AM

So, where am I wrong in any of those statements? Are you going to tell us that fishing is an athletic sport? Oh wait, you already did.

im not picking a fight with you at all, so respond to what i said.

youre wrong on MANY accounts, and mainly because you dont have enough knowledge of what it takes to play golf.

as for fishing, wow.
of course thats not a sport, and i doubt ANYONE would content that it is.
golf on the other hand most certainly IS a sport.

track takes MORE athletic ability than coordination but it requires both.
golf requires MORE coordination than athletic ability but it requires both.

make sense?

...and if you dont think golf takes athletic ability, go try and play it.
come out to colorado and let me take you to my club and lets see.
you'll find that it takes quite alot of athletic ability.
just pick up an issue of golf digest, look at the captions of the swings, and then try and get yourself in those swing positions.
all kinds of athletic ability.

again, because you can have a gut and still do it does NOT mean its not athletic.

again, saying golf isnt a sport because it doesnt require athleticism is just as much a crock as saying track isnt a sport because it requires no coordination.
both are blatantly untrue.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 10:46 AM

as for fishing, wow.
of course thats not a sport, and i doubt ANYONE would content that it is.
golf on the other hand most certainly IS a sport.

Big game fishing most certainly is a sport. Like I told the "greatest" I could take you out on the Gulf and after 4 hours or so of catching small fish (40-80lbs) you would be beat down and completely exhausted.

-Slap-

06-06-2006, 10:49 AM

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 10:58 AM

I think all those that are arguing that golf isnt a sport must have the belief that you must run to make it a sport.

well said.
its the only explanation i can think of, which is why i used the analogies (track not needing coordination) i did.
the act of running doesnt make sport nor does it make an athlete.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 11:03 AM

She is in it for the moola, what else is there..dman
Great athletes have a great sense competition and feel they can compete with the best. She is one of them.

Hulamau

06-06-2006, 11:10 AM

Here is a really good article from yesterday on Wie. I agree with most everything the guy says.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13154928/page/2/

They need to get her a couple of wins somewhere just to imprint what its like to close strognly. She can putt great durign the week rahter than just going after the miraculous each time out.

Think about what you were like at 16 and imagine the kind of pressure and accolades coming at you at that age?

She'll do fine once she gets a few wins under her belt and some more focus and maturity in the later holes when it counts.

If she makes half those straight forward putts yesterday she not only makes the cut but could challenge some of the leaders.

Her iron shots were spot on for the most part and as were many of her drives, it was the putter again that let her down and the pressure of the last couple of holes.

If she had been exclusively on the women's circuit she'd likely already have a a win or two.

Her father should insist she play a few womens events too, with a little less pressure than the expectation of making history everytime she steps on the course.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 11:19 AM

here's where we agree:

women can NOT compete with men in sports.

here's where we disagree:

what constitutes "sport" and/or "athlete".

so, how would you feel if i said you werent an athlete because all you did was run?
there's no coordination necessary right?
you just need to run fast.
thats not an athlete. its just someone who can run fast.

before you go off the deep end, i dont believe that.
im just playing devils advocate, and you saying golf isnt athletic is the same as me saying track doesnt take coordination.
my dad was a track coach. i KNOW how much more than just running fast is involved.
that said, most people DONT know how much more is involved, just as YOU dont know how much more than what you see is involved in golf.

women CANT compete with men in golf.
why?

because it requires way too much coordination AND athletic ability.

I'm glad that you said that you don't really believe that, and that you are playing devils advocate, because I was about to go off the deep end. I'd say that running is one defintion of an athlete.

I have stated repeatedly that golf is a hard sport that requires years of practice to perfect the skill. I have not played the sport, but I do understand that it takes total dedication, just like any other sport. But these guys aren't going through any training. What can they do that's athletic? Hitting a golf ball as far as they do is based more on their techique than being athletic.

I see an athlete as a person who can do "super human" feats. Being extremely fast, or being able to run for a very long distance. And being able to do that at a much higher level than the average person. Being stronger than the average person. The average person is nowhere near a defensive end in terms of strength.

What can the average pro golfer do, athletic wise, that the average person can't do? They have a much greater skill at hitting a golf ball in a certain spot. No question about that. But in terms of athletic ability, as in running fast or endurance, jumping high, being strong, and a few other atributes, I don't see golfers as being greater than the average person. Skill wise in their sport, they are off the charts. But athletic wise, I don't think so.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 11:26 AM

just so you know, she ISNT competing against the men.

she's TRYING, and she's failing.

beyond that, you have to go back DECADES to find another woman who competed with the men (babe zaharias) and it aint like she won either.

the women CANT compete with the men in golf.

why?

because golf IS an athletic sport.
not as MUCH athleticism is required (as opposed to coordination), but make no mistake. it takes athleticism.

When she shows up to these men's tournaments, she isn't coming in dead last. It seems like at some point she will make the cut. She is beating men at the pro level.

Maybe I don't understand certain aspects of the sport of golf. But aren't the players who miss the cut considered professionals? She's beating men on that level.

Put a woman in the Olympic qualifing heat for the men's 100 meter dash and she gets smoked in the opening round. Dead last.

The Williams sisters in tennis claimed they could beat a man ranked in the 200s. They played a guy that was ranked 203, and he beat them with ease. He even said that he went easy on them.

Compared to sports that I consider athletic sports, pro women can't even beat good high school boys. The WNBA all star team couldn't beat any of the top high school boys teams in basketball.

Archie

06-06-2006, 11:28 AM

Big game fishing most certainly is a sport. Like I told the "greatest" I could take you out on the Gulf and after 4 hours or so of catching small fish (40-80lbs) you would be beat down and completely exhausted.

Sport... has nothing to do with physical exertion. It's an activity that is done for fun. In that sense - fishing is absolutely a sport. However, just because it wears you down does not make it an athletic sport. Fishing is not an athletic sport. Golf is not an athletic sport. Non-Athletes can be very successful at both.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 11:28 AM

And FYI, I could take your women hating, all knowing, "great" arse out in the Gulf and wear (complete fatigue) you out in 4 hours or less just catching 40-80 lb fish.

Yeah, but I could give you a 30 meter head start in the 100 meter dash and still beat you by 10 meters, so what's your point? You can beat me in something that you are good at, and something that I have never tried? Wow, I guess we should all pat you on the back for that one.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 11:30 AM

I think all those that are arguing that golf isnt a sport must have the belief that you must run to make it a sport.

I would like to note that I have never said, or argued, that golf isn't a sport. It is. I'll even give fishing credit for being a sport. Maybe that'll make beerslug happy.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 11:30 AM

What can the average pro golfer do, athletic wise, that the average person can't do? They have a much greater skill at hitting a golf ball in a certain spot. No question about that. But in terms of athletic ability, as in running fast or endurance, jumping high, being strong, and a few other atributes, I don't see golfers as being greater than the average person. Skill wise in their sport, they are off the charts. But athletic wise, I don't think so. It's clear you are truly ignorant, just like your "bowling" statement shows. Many golfers live in the gym in between tournaments. Most gymnasts can't set world records in the 100 meters either but they surely are athletes. Same with skaters, skiers, auto racers, etc..., even all star raslers.

----------
athlete: : a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

sport: (1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in.

http://tinyurl.com/2ojc7

Sport... has nothing to do with physical exertion. It's an activity that is done for fun. In that sense - fishing is absolutely a sport. However, just because it wears you down does not make it an athletic sport. Fishing is not an athletic sport. Golf is not an athletic sport. Non-Athletes can be very successful at both.
If you're not in shape and athletic out there you're not going to catch fish (not very many anyway). Have you done it? It's much more than just hoping in a boat, motoring offshore 50-100 miles and throwing a line in. Stamina is a definite requirement.

.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 11:33 AM

Speaking on this some of the PBA members can throw a 15/16lb ball well over 30 miles an hour (spare straight shots, Robert Smith has hit the 34 mph mark and I would be real impressed if you could stay at 20mph for 3 frames in a row) and that takes a good bit of strength add to that the ability to throw it exactly where you need it well that makes it a sport.

Their bodies are conditioned to do that because they probably play everyday. I'm sure if the average person played every single day, they would get used to the stress of throwing that ball down the lane over and over.

If I went bowling right now and played a few games, I'd be sore tomorrow. But if I bowled daily, my body would get used to it.

If a normal person bowls on a consistant basis, they will be able to bowl for long periods than the average person.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 11:36 AM

Really depends on how you define "compete". If you point is that the she's not winning - ok great, your right. But that's not Jason's point. His point, which I think is well taken, is that at least Wie is "in the ball park" in competing with the men. Heck - if she sinks her birdie putts the other day she's still in for the Open Qualifer - possibly making her way into a mens Major thru fair competition. She didn't make it - but it's not like the entire male field wiped her out entirely - she fell short but she's definitely wtihin striking distance.

That's very different then all the other sports we've discussed (Track, Tennis, Football, Basketball, etc..) where even the very best female competitors in the world are easily defeated not just by the best male competitors but by male competitors competiting several levles down from even the top level.

I'll not be surprised if Wie makes the cut in a PGA event in the future. She's pretty damn good. But I'll make two other observations. One - as others have said - she really ought to get out there and win some LPGA tournaments and prove something on that tour. And two, I've wondered if as she matures physically if her body changes in a way that diminishes her ability to compete at the higher level. I have no idea but it seems plausible.

That's it right there. A woman is on the playing field with men in golf, and beat some of them. That's not going to happen in any athletic sport.

This isn't a matter of questioning golf as a sport. That's not my intensions. I think golf fans are getting carried away, acting like I am putting down the sport. It's a great sport that takes as much time and effort as any other sport. It's just not athletic in my book.

yavoon

06-06-2006, 11:41 AM

just remember, where michelle wie is competing there are no 16 year old boys.

yavoon

06-06-2006, 11:42 AM

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 11:53 AM

im not picking a fight with you at all, so respond to what i said.

youre wrong on MANY accounts, and mainly because you dont have enough knowledge of what it takes to play golf.

as for fishing, wow.
of course thats not a sport, and i doubt ANYONE would content that it is.
golf on the other hand most certainly IS a sport.

track takes MORE athletic ability than coordination but it requires both.
golf requires MORE coordination than athletic ability but it requires both.

make sense?

...and if you dont think golf takes athletic ability, go try and play it.
come out to colorado and let me take you to my club and lets see.
you'll find that it takes quite alot of athletic ability.
just pick up an issue of golf digest, look at the captions of the swings, and then try and get yourself in those swing positions.
all kinds of athletic ability.

again, because you can have a gut and still do it does NOT mean its not athletic.

again, saying golf isnt a sport because it doesnt require athleticism is just as much a crock as saying track isnt a sport because it requires no coordination.
both are blatantly untrue.

First off, that comment was not directed at you. I appreciate that you debate my points, and have not turned this into a mud slinging contest.

Sports have some type of balance between athletic ability and skill (which is mostly technique). Baseball, basketball, football, hockey, and tennis all take a combination of both. I will admit that certain track events do not take a lot of skill. The 100 meter dash is mostly athletic ability. But I will say that the difference in running a 10 flat and a 9.9 a lot of times is perfecting the techniques of running. I ran hurdles, which takes a good amount of skill. The fastest guy doesn't win that event, the guy with the best combination of speed and skill wins.

But to me, golf is nearly all skill, and not so much athletic ability. That's why I consider it a non-athletic sport.

You say that it takes athletic ability to get the body in certain positions to hit the ball. I'd say that's more skill. That's working with a coach to perfect that swing. And to be able to do that same exact swing nearly every time. That's a skill.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 11:58 AM

Big game fishing most certainly is a sport. Like I told the "greatest" I could take you out on the Gulf and after 4 hours or so of catching small fish (40-80lbs) you would be beat down and completely exhausted.

One thing that you need to understand that if you do something on a consistant basis, your body will get used to it. You will be able to take the wear and tear of it. Your body will be able to last longer, and recover faster.

If I took you on the track, and had you run five 50 meter dashes (which isn't much of a workout compared to what I am able to do), top speed, you would be sore for the next 4 days. You'd feel it everytime you got up. But if you did that same workout a couple times a week for a few weeks, your body would adapt to it, and you would be able to do more of a work load without feeling sore.

But I will give you that fishing is a sport. Just don't try to tell us it's an athletic sport.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 12:06 PM

Most gymnasts can't set world records in the 100 meters either but they surely are athletes. Same with skaters, skiers, auto racers, etc..., even all star raslers.

You really have horrible debating skills. What does that point have to do with anything? It doesn't even make sense. I'm not comparing what athletes can do in one sport to what they can do in a sport that they haven't played. I've always compared people in one sport to other people in that same sport.

Of course a gymnast can't set a world record in the 100 meter dash. What are you getting at? I'm not saying that the 100 meter dash is the standard for who's an athlete. The only people that my comments about the 100 meter dash applies to are 100 meter runners, men and women.

That's just a dumb comment.

bendog

06-06-2006, 12:07 PM

Why would sprinting be more or less a sport than deep sea fishing? I'm struggling to follow the logic here. I liked slap's take which was admittedly restrictive that if there was no defense, then it's not a sport, or at least it's different than sports with a defense. I'd think the fact that the fish has a "sporting" chance means deep sea fishing has more of a defense v. offense than track.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 12:08 PM

But I will give you that fishing is a sport. Just don't try to tell us it's an athletic sport. Look up the word stamina, then look up the word athlete. Big Game fishing tournaments have hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake. These guys have to be in top shape to fight fish all day long, day after day to compete in these tourney's.

You're trying to redefine the word athlete to fit a narrow, biased view you hold to support "your" definition.

That's just a dumb comment.
No, this is a "dumb" comment...

Originally Posted by Jason in LA
I don't think a bowler can do much of anything outside of rolling that ball down the lane.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 12:09 PM

Think about what you were like at 16 and imagine the kind of pressure and accolades coming at you at that age?

Here's another question. Why is a 16 year old girl able to be on the same field as the men, and not get blown out by all of them? What athletic sport is that possible in? She's able to do that because she has the skills. It's not about being a great athlete.

bendog

06-06-2006, 12:12 PM

Here's another question. Why is a 16 year old girl able to be on the same field as the men, and not get blown out by all of them? What athletic sport is that possible in? She's able to do that because she has the skills. It's not about being a great athlete.
You think guys who shot put and even greco-roman wrestle at heavy weight are great athletes? I know some 40 yr old 115 women trainers who'd kill them in cardio.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 12:13 PM

Really depends on how you define "compete". If you point is that the she's not winning - ok great, your right. But that's not Jason's point. His point, which I think is well taken, is that at least Wie is "in the ball park" in competing with the men. Heck - if she sinks her birdie putts the other day she's still in for the Open Qualifer - possibly making her way into a mens Major thru fair competition. She didn't make it - but it's not like the entire male field wiped her out entirely - she fell short but she's definitely wtihin striking distance.

That's very different then all the other sports we've discussed (Track, Tennis, Football, Basketball, etc..) where even the very best female competitors in the world are easily defeated not just by the best male competitors but by male competitors competiting several levles down from even the top level.

I'll not be surprised if Wie makes the cut in a PGA event in the future. She's pretty damn good. But I'll make two other observations. One - as others have said - she really ought to get out there and win some LPGA tournaments and prove something on that tour. And two, I've wondered if as she matures physically if her body changes in a way that diminishes her ability to compete at the higher level. I have no idea but it seems plausible.

is it that much different?

she just failed to qualify right?
and would it be fair to say most of the men she was playing against are second tier pros (at best)?

in fact, she just DID get beat by second rate males, since more than FIFTY of the top players get a free pass.

it certainly is a matter of how you define "compete", but in my humble opinion she's FAILING to "compete" with the top men.
in fact, she just failed to compete at a qualifying level with the second tier men.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 12:14 PM

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 12:16 PM

Look up the word stamina, then look up the word athlete. Big Game fishing tournaments have hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake. These guys have to be in top shape to fight fish all day long, day after day to compete in these tourney's.

You're trying to redefine the word athlete to fit a narrow, biased view you hold to support "your" definition.

No, this is a "dumb" comment...

Like I said before, the more you do an activity, the more your body will adapt to it. I'm not going to retype the entire point. Just go back and read it.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 12:21 PM

is it that much different?

she just failed to qualify right?
and would it be fair to say most of the men she was playing against are second tier pros (at best)?

in fact, she just DID get beat by second rate males, since more than FIFTY of the top players get a free pass.

it certainly is a matter of how you define "compete", but in my humble opinion she's FAILING to "compete" with the top men.
in fact, she just failed to compete at a qualifying level with the second tier men.

Can we at least say she's on the level as the second tier men? A woman isn't going to be able to do that in athletic sports.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 12:22 PM

in fact, she just DID get beat by second rate males, since more than FIFTY of the top players get a free pass.

it certainly is a matter of how you define "compete", but in my humble opinion she's FAILING to "compete" with the top men.
in fact, she just failed to compete at a qualifying level with the second tier men.

Care to post the names of all the PGA pros (men) who finished below her in the Sony Open? She's 16, a girl and kicking the ass of some of the best male golfers in the world. Anyone who thinks she doesn't have a chance to play on the men's tour is not using their noggin.

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 12:23 PM

That's it right there. A woman is on the playing field with men in golf, and beat some of them. That's not going to happen in any athletic sport.

Different sports require different skill sets. Gymnastics and ice skating require a ton of skill and athletic ability but also present a huge advantage for smaller and lighter bodies and frames. Teenage girls would be whipping 30 something men day in and day out at ice skating and gymnastics on average.

Golf is somewhat unique in that the more athletic ability you have the better off you are but there are so many fascists that are important that you have the opportunity to overcome weaknesses in one or two areas by creating strengths in others.

But don't fool yourself to think that golf isn't about athletic ability. With a few exceptions the better the athlete the farther they hit the ball and length is a big advantage and a big factor in golf.

Archie

06-06-2006, 12:36 PM

So - what's the standard we are going to use here? The point that Jason was trying to make (and I think he defended it well) was that in most "athletic" sports the very best women in the world can't hold a candle to male athletes even several levels down in that sport.

So - you are saying that competing wtih men ranked around 100 means she's not competing with the first tier. But - she's at least competing with men at the same (ie professional) level.

If we eliminated the top 100 golfers from the world that would still leave ~900 left on the 2006 PGA TOUR Official World Golf Ranking. Jason's point is that pretty much all of those players would be expected to crush Wie if Male / Female competition was like other athletic sports. But - contrary to that expectation, in golf Wie would likely be very competitive with those in the 100 to 150 range and would likely start kicking ass on those below that level.

is it that much different?

she just failed to qualify right?
and would it be fair to say most of the men she was playing against are second tier pros (at best)?

in fact, she just DID get beat by second rate males, since more than FIFTY of the top players get a free pass.

it certainly is a matter of how you define "compete", but in my humble opinion she's FAILING to "compete" with the top men.
in fact, she just failed to compete at a qualifying level with the second tier men.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 12:39 PM

Routinely make it. NO. The exception to the rule occassionally qualifying , I'm sure. it's my understanding she does not take away a shot for someone whose earned their stripes..dman

your understanding is in fact incorrect.

if that were the case i would say more power to her.

in point of fact though she IS taking a spot away from a deserving male.
every tournament has a certain number of sponsors exemptions available to them.
if its a tournament in colorado for example, they might offer david duval a spot in a couple years even if he fails to keep his card.
last year here at the international, greg norman was given a sponsors exemption. he draws fans, and he's a friend of jack vickers (who owns castle pines golf club), so he got an invite.

michelle wie is getting exemptions into these tournaments because she draws a crowd.
michelle wie is NOT qualifying for these tournaments.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 12:47 PM

She's 16 and hasn't learned how to play under pressure or putt yet. To say she can't play with the men is speculation at best.

no, its 100% fact.

to say she'll NEVER be able to play with the men is speculation.
i dont think she will, but IF she gets on a good path (meaning playing a regular lpga schedule and skipping the mens stuff for now) and learns how to win on the lpga, i have to concede that she has a chance to at least EARN a spot in a tourney and possibly even make a cut.

that said, she's a RIDICULOUS talent, and thats why ill acknowledge the possibility.
she's almost inhuman in her talent level. honestly, ive never seen anything like it, and i STILL dont think she'll ever really compete (with favorable results anyway) against the top men.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 12:52 PM

Big game fishing most certainly is a sport. Like I told the "greatest" I could take you out on the Gulf and after 4 hours or so of catching small fish (40-80lbs) you would be beat down and completely exhausted.

ummmm....i dont know what to say i guess.

i didnt really realize that "big game fishing" even existed, and i certainly didnt think it required anything except the ability to hold a pole and drink beers.

that said, ive just learned something new.

see, i dont understand fishing like jason doesnt understand golf.

i guess i'd have to see how it all works before calling it a sport, but since i know nothing about it i can just take your word for it.

where i think jason went wrong is assuming he knew what it takes to play golf.
i certainly wont do the same thing with fishing, though admittedly it is VERY hard to see how it would be a sport.

you learn something new every day.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 12:55 PM

If we eliminated the top 100 golfers from the world that would still leave ~900 left on the 2006 PGA TOUR Official World Golf Ranking. Jason's point is that pretty much all of those players would be expected to crush Wie if Male / Female competition was like other athletic sports. But - contrary to that expectation, in golf Wie would likely be very competitive with those in the 100 to 150 range and would likely start kicking ass on those below that level.

The point about the Williams sisters proves this point. They played a male that was ranked 203rd in the world, and he beat them with ease. He said he went easy on them. And that if they had a chance, they'd have to start with the 600th ranked male. Maybe then they'd have a chance.

A few years back there was a commerial with a few of the top WNBA players in it. They went to went to New York to play pick up games. Spike Lee was the narrorator for the commerical. One of his lines was something like "It would be a fairy tale to say that they won all their games, but they held their own." He didn't say if they had won any games. Just that they held their own. The point is that the top players in the WNBA were beat by random guys who were playing in a pickup games.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 12:59 PM

your understanding is in fact incorrect.

if that were the case i would say more power to her.

in point of fact though she IS taking a spot away from a deserving male.
every tournament has a certain number of sponsors exemptions available to them.
if its a tournament in colorado for example, they might offer david duval a spot in a couple years even if he fails to keep his card.
last year here at the international, greg norman was given a sponsors exemption. he draws fans, and he's a friend of jack vickers (who owns castle pines golf club), so he got an invite.

michelle wie is getting exemptions into these tournaments because she draws a crowd.
michelle wie is NOT qualifying for these tournaments.

I heard one of those golf insiders talking about this issue. He made a pretty good point that the sponsors are paying a boat load of money to televise the event, so they would be foolish not to put in somebody that will be a big draw.

Looking at it like that, I have no problem with them doing it. But I'm not really a golf fan, so that doesn't mean much. I can understand why golf fans would be upset.

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 12:59 PM

The point about the Williams sisters proves this point. They played a male that was ranked 203rd in the world, and he beat them with ease. He said he went easy on them. And that if they had a chance, they'd have to start with the 600th ranked male. Maybe then they'd have a chance.

A few years back there was a commerial with a few of the top WNBA players in it. They went to went to New York to play pick up games. Spike Lee was the narrorator for the commerical. One of his lines was something like "It would be a fairy tale to say that they won all their games, but they held their own." He didn't say if they had won any games. Just that they held their own. The point is that the top players in the WNBA were beat by random guys who were playing in a pickup games.

I see your point but if a freak 16 year old girl comes along in the next ten years that can run 10.1 100 meters and can beat all but the top guys in the world would that all of the sudden make the worlds best sprinters no longer athletes?

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 01:00 PM

ummmm....i dont know what to say i guess.

i didnt really realize that "big game fishing" even existed, and i certainly didnt think it required anything except the ability to hold a pole and drink beers.

that said, ive just learned something new.

see, i dont understand fishing like jason doesnt understand golf.

i guess i'd have to see how it all works before calling it a sport, but since i know nothing about it i can just take your word for it.

where i think jason went wrong is assuming he knew what it takes to play golf.
i certainly wont do the same thing with fishing, though admittedly it is VERY hard to see how it would be a sport.

you learn something new every day.

Don't worry, if I keep saying it's a sport, he'll start saying the opposite.

redrage

06-06-2006, 01:01 PM

Pretty good discussion.

I think I can see both sides of the argument.

On the one hand Wie made a valient attempt to qualify for a tournament in which the best of her profession compete. In Jason's view, that disqualifies golf as an athletic sport since the difference between a 16 year-old girl and prime-of-thier-careers-men just isn't that great. I can see how he would make that statement.

However,

By the very fact that Wie is female, there is going to be a physical ceiling on her ability to ascend to the top of the sport. That's just the fact of life. She has power to drive the ball a long way, but anyone that plays golf knows that is a LOT different than the power to blast out of 6 inch rough or to hit a crisp enough wedge to back it up 10 feet. If you watch enough golf (men's and women's) it is totally obvious that women do NOT exhibit the wrist and hand strength to compete with the top 50 male professionals.

By virtue of the sport, she can overcome her weaknesses and post good scores and APPROACH the ability of the top male golfers, but she will NEVER reach it. That isn't sexism talking, that's just plain biological fact.

My point is that even though the difference may seem small, it's still big enough that no woman will ever cross it.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 01:05 PM

I see your point but if a freak 16 year old girl comes along in the next ten years that can run 10.1 100 meters and can beat all but the top guys in the world would that all of the sudden make the worlds best sprinters no longer athletes?

You just made up a situation that's not going to happen. A 16 year old girl running a 10.1 wouldn't be a freak, she would be a mutant. Sign that chick up for the X Men. Put a cape on her.

If somebody comes along who can fly, does that mean the whole concept of gravity goes down the drain? There's no need to argue the point because it's not going to happen.

The fast woman ever was Flo Jo, who ran a 10.49. But she was on steroids. She quit in her prime, just as they started to have stricter testing. Then she dies in her mid 30s. Marion Jones ran in the 10.6 range. But she was on steroids too. She's clean now and running 11.1, which is the fastest time this year for women.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 01:06 PM

I'm glad that you said that you don't really believe that, and that you are playing devils advocate, because I was about to go off the deep end. I'd say that running is one defintion of an athlete.

I have stated repeatedly that golf is a hard sport that requires years of practice to perfect the skill. I have not played the sport, but I do understand that it takes total dedication, just like any other sport. But these guys aren't going through any training. What can they do that's athletic? Hitting a golf ball as far as they do is based more on their techique than being athletic.

I see an athlete as a person who can do "super human" feats. Being extremely fast, or being able to run for a very long distance. And being able to do that at a much higher level than the average person. Being stronger than the average person. The average person is nowhere near a defensive end in terms of strength.

What can the average pro golfer do, athletic wise, that the average person can't do? They have a much greater skill at hitting a golf ball in a certain spot. No question about that. But in terms of athletic ability, as in running fast or endurance, jumping high, being strong, and a few other atributes, I don't see golfers as being greater than the average person. Skill wise in their sport, they are off the charts. But athletic wise, I don't think so.

see thats just it jason.

you dont SEE it because you dont understand the game or what it takes to play it, just like alot of people (ive had people tell me what i told you about track and MEAN it) dont understand what goes into running track.

growing up with around world class track coaches and athletes (my father wasnt ever famous, but his good friend is pat connely who has worked with many world class female sprinters) as a kid, i of course gained an appreciation of how much more there is than just running fast.
when i tell people my dad was a track coach ive actually heard people say "a track coach? what the hell is there to coach?"

anyway, point is that there is alot more than meets the eye.

again, look at an issue of golf magazine and check out the swing positions.

youre an athlete, and a good one at that if track was your sport.

my guess is you'd have to spend an ENORMOUS amount of time to be able to train your muscles to get into the positions that tiger (or phil, ernie, vijay, etc.) gets into, and at the end of it all you STILL might not be able to do it.
world class golfers can do things with their bodies that are hard to believe.
the speed at which the clubhead is turned over, the "x-factor" which is the amount of upper body twist without the lower body following, the balance it takes to swing at 115 mph and stay planted, etc.

they DO do things athletically that the rest of us (including an AVID and OBSESSED golfer like myself who was a former basketball player) just cant do.

it may be hard for you to see, but its true.

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 01:06 PM

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 01:08 PM

You just made up a situation that's not going to happen. A 16 year old girl running a 10.1 wouldn't be a freak, she would be a mutant. Sign that chick up for the X Men. Put a cape on her.

If somebody comes along who can fly, does that mean the whole concept of gravity goes down the drain? There's no need to argue the point because it's not going to happen.

The fast woman ever was Flo Jo, who ran a 10.49. But she was on steroids. She quit in her prime, just as they started to have stricter testing. Then she dies in her mid 30s. Marion Jones ran in the 10.6 range. But she was on steroids too. She's clean now and running 11.1, which is the fastest time this year for women.

I largely agree with you but prior to a few years ago everybody with a brain would have said the same thing about the idea of a 14 year old girl making a PGA Tour cut....granted it was her home course but still only missed it by a stroke.

bendog

06-06-2006, 01:10 PM

Pretty good discussion.

I think I can see both sides of the argument.

On the one hand Wie made a valient attempt to qualify for a tournament in which the best of her profession compete. In Jason's view, that disqualifies golf as an athletic sport since the difference between a 16 year-old girl and prime-of-thier-careers-men just isn't that great. I can see how he would make that statement.

However,

By the very fact that Wie is female, there is going to be a physical ceiling on her ability to ascend to the top of the sport. That's just the fact of life. She has power to drive the ball a long way, but anyone that plays golf knows that is a LOT different than the power to blast out of 6 inch rough or to hit a crisp enough wdege to back it up 10 feet. If you watch enough golf (men's and women's) it is totally obvious that women do NOT exhibit the wrist and hand strength to compete with the top 50 male professionals.

By virtue of the sport, she can overcome her weaknesses and post good scores and APPROACH the ability of the top male glofers, but she will NEVER reach it. That isn't sexism talking, that's just plain biological fact.

My point is that even though the difference may seem small, it's still big enough that no woman will ever cross it.
Good post. You said what I thought only more clearly than I thought it. A long drive is only partly strength, and a woman simply cannot develop the lower body/hand/wrist strength.

I'm still less than clear on what makes something a sport or not a sport though. Still, regardless of sport, be it aeorbic condidtioning to table tennis generally men will have the physical ability to be better. But how about ping-pong? Can a woman be as good?

redrage

06-06-2006, 01:13 PM

I think there are easily 200 male golfers that would qualify as being better than Wie. 150+ golfers made it into the Open and many highly ranked goflers didn't get in.

Golf is a 'any given day' type of sport. Mainly because she doesn't have to compete against men, but rather post a score on a course in comparision to men. But measuring Wie against male golfers year 'round, she'd starve if it weren't for her endorsments.

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 01:17 PM

I think there are easily 200 male golfers that would qualify as being better than Wie. 150+ golfers made it into the Open and many highly ranked goflers didn't get in.

That number is probably even higher....About 200+ card carrying PGA players and you could throw in the entire Nationwide tour and the vast majority of the European PGA Tour.

When she goes to the mens events she has geared up mentally and physically like the men do when the go to play in a major. When the men play the John Deere or Sony it is just another day in the park.

redrage

06-06-2006, 01:19 PM

That's why I made the statement I did in an earlier post. Because of the ceiling on her physical abilities, this smacks as a pubilicity stunt. She's just trying to become the first woman to play in a men's major. Never mind that she has absolutely NO CHANCE to win, much less make the cut, it becomes clear she is doing it for the history.

That's fine. But I don't think she's paving the way for anyone else to follow and seeing that she hasn't really even dominated against the women yet, it seems like kind of a joke. Should Anika be trying the same thing, I guess it wouldn't strike me as odd.

redrage

06-06-2006, 01:20 PM

That number is probably even higher....About 200+ card carrying PGA players and you could throw in the entire Nationwide tour and the vast majority of the European PGA Tour.

When she goes to the mens events she has geared up mentally and physically like the men do when the go to play in a major. When the men play the John Deere or Sony it is just another day in the park.
I realize that. I picked the 200 number to parallel the example with the Williams sisters.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 01:22 PM

see thats just it jason.

you dont SEE it because you dont understand the game or what it takes to play it, just like alot of people (ive had people tell me what i told you about track and MEAN it) dont understand what goes into running track.

growing up with around world class track coaches and athletes (my father wasnt ever famous, but his good friend is pat connely who has worked with many world class female sprinters) as a kid, i of course gained an appreciation of how much more there is than just running fast.
when i tell people my dad was a track coach ive actually heard people say "a track coach? what the hell is there to coach?"

anyway, point is that there is alot more than meets the eye.

again, look at an issue of golf magazine and check out the swing positions.

youre an athlete, and a good one at that if track was your sport.

my guess is you'd have to spend an ENORMOUS amount of time to be able to train your muscles to get into the positions that tiger (or phil, ernie, vijay, etc.) gets into, and at the end of it all you STILL might not be able to do it.
world class golfers can do things with their bodies that are hard to believe.
the speed at which the clubhead is turned over, the "x-factor" which is the amount of upper body twist without the lower body following, the balance it takes to swing at 115 mph and stay planted, etc.

they DO do things athletically that the rest of us (including an AVID and OBSESSED golfer like myself who was a former basketball player) just cant do.

it may be hard for you to see, but its true.

Here's the way I look at it. Changing your technique, or mastering a technique in something does not make you a better athlete, or that you are now more athletic.

When I first started running track I ran with my hands balded up in a fast, and my arms kind of crossed my body. I looked at it on video and it looked retarded. My coach told me to open my hands up, and go straight up and down. And I was able to run a little faster because I had better technique. That change in technique didn't make me a more of an athlete. I was still in the same condition as before. Had the same strength. I just did something simple that helped me run faster.

Another guy on the team ran with his chin up, which made his head hang back. Our coach told him to put his chin down. And he was able to run a bit faster. That didn't make him more of an athlete.

I was very fast when I ran hurdles because I spent a lot of time working on my technique going over the hurdles. I was able to beat faster guys because I had better technique. That doens't make me more of an athlete.

I see golf as perfecting different techniques. It's a skill. The best athlete isn't going to win. We can see that by the high numbers of NBA, NFL, and MLB players who take up golf. Jordan, who is a great athlete, is better than your average Joe, but he's couldn't come close to going pro in that sport. The guy with the best technique is going to win. The guy with the best skill is going to win.

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 01:22 PM

Golf is a 'any given day' type of sport.

That is another good point. A 9 handicap like myself can be hot and shoot 76 while a PGA Tour player can have a rotten day and shot 79...Somebody who doesn't know golf could conclude that I'm just bout as good as a PGA Tour player when in reality there is a bigger difference between me and the guy that shot 79 than there is between somebody who runs a 12.5 100 meters and a world class sprinter who runs a 10.0

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 01:31 PM

That is another good point. A 9 handicap like myself can be hot and shoot 76 while a PGA Tour player can have a rotten day and shot 79...Somebody who doesn't know golf could conclude that I'm just bout as good as a PGA Tour player when in reality there is a bigger difference between me and the guy that shot 79 than there is between somebody who runs a 12.5 100 meters and a world class sprinter who runs a 10.0

I guess I'm looking at some of the numbers you are putting out there in disbelief.

Do you know how much of a gap there is between a 12.5 100 and a 10.0 100? High school girls, who are just somewhat good, can run in the 12.5 range.

You sound like you are pretty good at golf, so I'd say that there is a bigger difference between an elite men's 100 meter runner and an average high school girl 100 meter runner than there is between you and a pro golfer.

If we go by your numbers, if you had the game of your life, you could for a very short period of time be in the ball park with a pro golfer who had a bad day.

An elite men's 100 meter running could fall down twice and still run a 12.5 100 meter dash.

Maybe I'm just looking into your numbers a bit too much. Excuse me if I am.

freak6

06-06-2006, 01:32 PM

All I know is she makes the cut for me.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-06-2006, 01:37 PM

I think there are easily 200 male golfers that would qualify as being better than Wie. 150+ golfers made it into the Open and many highly ranked goflers didn't get in.
.
I don't know about that. The Open is playing a qualifier at one course. You do know at 14 that she finished better than almost every male that missed the cut at the Sony Open (with her just missing by one stroke)? Check out the names she beat over those two days.

She also only finished with an average of 258 yds for her drives at the Open qualifier. It was her iron play that was awesome for the two rounds.

She just needs to learn how to putt and play under pressure. At 16 she has plenty of time to do that.

bendog

06-06-2006, 01:42 PM

All I know is she makes the cut for me.
She's SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. Get your mind out of the gutter! Oh .... nevermind.

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 01:44 PM

Maybe I'm just looking into your numbers a bit too much. Excuse me if I am.

I'm exaggerating a little bit but not much...A really good HS girl versus a world class men's sprinter would be in the ball park of the gap between a golfer like me and a PGA Tour pro. Because of the differences in the sport you are correct in that Gatlin could trip twice and still beat a HS girl every time. Where golf is a "any day sport" like Rage mentioned it is a bit different. But if you were to use a four round tournament as the bench mark then it would be very similar. We could play head to head in 100 tournaments and I would lose all 100.

The shorter you make the event in golf the more you bring luck into play. For example a horrible golfer could beat Tiger on occasion if all you played was one par 3...Occasionally Tiger would bogey when the bad player slopped in a par but again if you stretch that out to 3 holes the bad player would never win.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 01:46 PM

I'm glad that you said that you don't really believe that, and that you are playing devils advocate, because I was about to go off the deep end.

LOL

i knew that you would, and while as the son of a track (and basketball) coach i of course dont think that way other people actually do.

EXACTLY the same thing as you not really understanding all that goes into golf.

freak6

06-06-2006, 01:47 PM

She's SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. Get your mind out of the gutter! Oh .... nevermind.

I didn't know that, oops. She's a hot teenager no matter what, it's not like I said more than that. Now I feel guilty.

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 01:50 PM

I didn't know that, oops. She's a hot teenager no matter what, it's not like I said more than that. Now I feel guilty.

Don't sweat it...16 and consent is the law in most states.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 01:56 PM

That's it right there. A woman is on the playing field with men in golf, and beat some of them. That's not going to happen in any athletic sport.

This isn't a matter of questioning golf as a sport. That's not my intensions. I think golf fans are getting carried away, acting like I am putting down the sport. It's a great sport that takes as much time and effort as any other sport. It's just not athletic in my book.

wrong.

just plain DEAD wrong.

how about this jason:

its not AS MUCH an athletic sport as basketball, track, or tennis, but it is still an athletic sport, which is why a woman has NEVER won (or even made the cut in) a pga tournament.

again, track requires both athletic ability and coordination, but it requires MORE athletic ability.
golf requires both athletic ability and coordination, but requires MORE coordination.

at the end of the day, golf is still an athletic sport.

it may not be AS MUCH an athletic sport as track, but its athletic none the less.

would you or would you not agree that baseball doesnt require NEAR as much conditioning as track?
does that mean baseball isnt athletic?

no, it just means its not AS athletic.

agreed?

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 01:56 PM

The shorter you make the event in golf the more you bring luck into play.

Yeah, that's kind of like in football. If the 2003 season had only been 10 games instead of 16, the Chiefs would have won the Super Bowl.

Hey, I couldn't resist. ;D

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 01:58 PM

She's SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. Get your mind out of the gutter! Oh .... nevermind.

Nothing wrong with noticing her. Just can't act on it. Put her in the "tickler file" until she's 18.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 02:03 PM

Can we at least say she's on the level as the second tier men? A woman isn't going to be able to do that in athletic sports.

see my last post.

we're debating semantics, and youre being EXTREMELY narrow here.

golf is ABSOLUTELY an athletic sport.
in point of FACT it of course is not AS athletic as track, basketball, etc., but its still athletic.
there's no way around it my friend.

it takes skill AND athletic ability, but it requires MORE skill than athletic ability.

come on now.
if it was JUST skill, why hasnt a woman EVER even made a damn cut!!

BECAUSE IT TAKES ATHLETIC ABILITY ALSO!!!!!!!!

come on my friend.
you HAVE to recognize that at this point right?

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 02:03 PM

wrong.

just plain DEAD wrong.

how about this jason:

its not AS MUCH an athletic sport as basketball, track, or tennis, but it is still an athletic sport, which is why a woman has NEVER won (or even made the cut in) a pga tournament.

again, track requires both athletic ability and coordination, but it requires MORE athletic ability.
golf requires both athletic ability and coordination, but requires MORE coordination.

at the end of the day, golf is still an athletic sport.

it may not be AS MUCH an athletic sport as track, but its athletic none the less.

would you or would you not agree that baseball doesnt require NEAR as much conditioning as track?
does that mean baseball isnt athletic?

no, it just means its not AS athletic.

agreed?

I guess that's as close as we're going to get.^5

As for baseball, it has a mix of athletic ability and skill. Track requires a higher degree of athletic ability and a lower degree of skill when compared to baseball.

Golf requires an extremely high degree of skill, and a low degree of athletic ability (there, I've given in a bit, that's as much as you are going to get).

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 02:06 PM

see my last post.

we're debating semantics, and youre being EXTREMELY narrow here.

golf is ABSOLUTELY an athletic sport.
in point of FACT it of course is not AS athletic as track, basketball, etc., but its still athletic.
there's no way around it my friend.

it takes skill AND athletic ability, but it requires MORE skill than athletic ability.

come on now.
if it was JUST skill, why hasnt a woman EVER even made a damn cut!!

BECAUSE IT TAKES ATHLETIC ABILITY ALSO!!!!!!!!

come on my friend.
you HAVE to recognize that at this point right?

I'm of the opinion that it's such a low degree of athletic ability that I wouldn't consider them athletes, or an athletic sport. Again, I have given a little bit. That's all I'm going to give.

So what is your opinion going to be when Wie does make a cut? Do you think that will never happen?

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 02:08 PM

So - what's the standard we are going to use here? The point that Jason was trying to make (and I think he defended it well) was that in most "athletic" sports the very best women in the world can't hold a candle to male athletes even several levels down in that sport.

So - you are saying that competing wtih men ranked around 100 means she's not competing with the first tier. But - she's at least competing with men at the same (ie professional) level.

If we eliminated the top 100 golfers from the world that would still leave ~900 left on the 2006 PGA TOUR Official World Golf Ranking. Jason's point is that pretty much all of those players would be expected to crush Wie if Male / Female competition was like other athletic sports. But - contrary to that expectation, in golf Wie would likely be very competitive with those in the 100 to 150 range and would likely start kicking ass on those below that level.

good God.

if it wasnt an athletic sport, and it was just skill that was needed,

THEN FOR GODS SAKE WHY HASNT A WOMAN EVER EVEN MADE A CUT!!

again, its not AS athletic as other sports, which is why an AMAZING athlete like michelle wie or anika sorenstam can compete with second tier men, but it CLEARLY still takes enough athletic ability that they CANNON compete with and beat the BEST men out there.

how can this not be clear at this point?

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 02:12 PM

The point about the Williams sisters proves this point. They played a male that was ranked 203rd in the world, and he beat them with ease. He said he went easy on them. And that if they had a chance, they'd have to start with the 600th ranked male. Maybe then they'd have a chance.

A few years back there was a commerial with a few of the top WNBA players in it. They went to went to New York to play pick up games. Spike Lee was the narrorator for the commerical. One of his lines was something like "It would be a fairy tale to say that they won all their games, but they held their own." He didn't say if they had won any games. Just that they held their own. The point is that the top players in the WNBA were beat by random guys who were playing in a pickup games.

last attempt.....for now :)

it proves that tennis is MORE athletic than golf.

it does NOT prove that golf ISNT athletic.

and again, like ive said 3 or 4 times now, the fact that a woman has NEVER even made a cut (let alone win) proves that golf IS an athletic sport.

not for one SECOND am i saying it requires as much athletic ability as tennis, but it still requires athletic ability and the results PROVE that.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 02:14 PM

I heard one of those golf insiders talking about this issue. He made a pretty good point that the sponsors are paying a boat load of money to televise the event, so they would be foolish not to put in somebody that will be a big draw.

Looking at it like that, I have no problem with them doing it. But I'm not really a golf fan, so that doesn't mean much. I can understand why golf fans would be upset.

it upsets me, because i know how hard these guys are working.

heck, a guy a went to high school with is busting his butt to stay on tour (he's had to play mostly euro and nationwide this year after playing pga last year) and when wie gets a spot thats a spot a guy like him loses.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 02:17 PM

it upsets me, because i know how hard these guys are working.

heck, a guy a went to high school with is busting his butt to stay on tour (he's had to play mostly euro and nationwide this year after playing pga last year) and when wie gets a spot thats a spot a guy like him loses.

I'm not saying that it's a simple sport. I'm not saying that these guys don't work hard. Just because I think it's not very athletic doesn't mean I think these guys aren't working hard.

It takes a ton of long and hard work to perfect any skill. I applaud these guys, and would never question their work ethic. But I just don't see them being athletic.

Mile High Shack

06-06-2006, 02:19 PM

it upsets me, because i know how hard these guys are working.

heck, a guy a went to high school with is busting his butt to stay on tour (he's had to play mostly euro and nationwide this year after playing pga last year) and when wie gets a spot thats a spot a guy like him loses.

that's my beef too

but as long as she goes through qualifying, I have no problem with her trying to make it

I think eventually she will qualify, but I am not entirely sure if she'll ever make it to sat or sun at a major.

but when she gets those automatic exemptions it drives me batty as a golf enthuisist

Mile High Shack

06-06-2006, 02:20 PM

I'm not saying that it's a simple sport. I'm not saying that these guys don't work hard. Just because I think it's not very athletic doesn't mean I think these guys aren't working hard.

It takes a ton of long and hard work to perfect any skill. I applaud these guys, and would never question their work ethic. But I just don't see them being athletic.

go play bball 1 on 1 with tiger and see how you do

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 02:20 PM

Jake, just look at the bright side, we are still a good 60 pages away from our "Jakes not to blame" debate. ;D

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 02:21 PM

go play bball 1 on 1 with tiger and see how you do

I'm sure I'd do well.

Mile High Shack

06-06-2006, 02:22 PM

I'm sure I'd do well.

yeah
b/c you are like nemo

the chosen one

but yet, here you sit, not utilizing your great athletic ability to your gain

just your "5 TDs in one game" Al Bundyish rant

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 02:25 PM

it upsets me, because i know how hard these guys are working.

heck, a guy a went to high school with is busting his butt to stay on tour (he's had to play mostly euro and nationwide this year after playing pga last year) and when wie gets a spot thats a spot a guy like him loses.

I largely agree with that side but it is a double edge sword...As she is coming in on sponsor expemptions and boosting ratings increases future $'s the tour can sell sponsorship thus increasing purses and benefits which ultimately trickles down and benefits all of them if they hang around.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 02:26 PM

Well, he's not a basketball player...right? So why wouldn't I feel good about my chances? You act like you asked me how I would do against Kobe Bryant.

So far I've never seen Tiger move faster than a walk. So why wouldn't I feel good about playing him in basketball?

Mile High Shack

06-06-2006, 02:28 PM

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 02:30 PM

I get the feeling if I asked you how you'd do against Kobe, you'd still say "I'd hold my own"

Now you are just being silly.

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 03:47 PM

I guess that's as close as we're going to get.^5

As for baseball, it has a mix of athletic ability and skill. Track requires a higher degree of athletic ability and a lower degree of skill when compared to baseball.

Golf requires an extremely high degree of skill, and a low degree of athletic ability (there, I've given in a bit, that's as much as you are going to get).

fair enough :thumbsup:

orange 4 life

06-06-2006, 04:11 PM

Jake, just look at the bright side, we are still a good 60 pages away from our "Jakes not to blame" debate. ;D

ya, but we just started!! :giggle:

ps- jake ISNT to blame, and he IS the qb of the future. !Booya!

freak6

06-06-2006, 04:46 PM

yeah
b/c you are like nemo

the chosen one

but yet, here you sit, not utilizing your great athletic ability to your gain

just your "5 TDs in one game" Al Bundyish rant

It was 4 tds, and showing how clutch he was, it was in the City Championship game at that.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 07:32 PM

ya, but we just started!! :giggle:

ps- jake ISNT to blame, and he IS the qb of the future. !Booya!

This past year, you are right. Jake wasn't to blame, and I don't blame him for that loss to the Steelers. I was happy with what he did last year, and hope he can continue that.

Yes, he is the QB of the future. The next two years that is. I'm happy with the Cutler pick, but I have no interest in seeing him on the field any time soon. There is no need to push him out there.

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 07:58 PM

Yes, he is the QB of the future. The next two years that is. I'm happy with the Cutler pick, but I have no interest in seeing him on the field any time soon. There is no need to push him out there.

Name your bet...I bet you Plummer doesn't see the end of the 2007 as the starter of the Donks....I honestly don't expect him to be the starter at the end of the 2006 season if the Donks aren't a very serious Super Bowl contender and he is playing very, very well.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 08:39 PM

I could see Cutler in there for the '07 season, even though I'd like to see him sit for two years.

But he won't see the field this coming year. Shanny isn't going to rush him because there is no need to rush him.

NaptownChief

06-06-2006, 08:41 PM

Shanny isn't going to rush him because there is no need to rush him.

No need right now but fall out of playoff contention and he will be in there quick, fast and a hurry.

Jason in LA

06-06-2006, 08:51 PM

The Broncos have been to the playoffs three years running, and every year they bring back the bulk of their team from the year before. We heard all this same stuff last year. Barring injuries, the Broncos will be in playoff contention.

yavoon

06-07-2006, 12:07 AM

it upsets me, because i know how hard these guys are working.

heck, a guy a went to high school with is busting his butt to stay on tour (he's had to play mostly euro and nationwide this year after playing pga last year) and when wie gets a spot thats a spot a guy like him loses.

this is largely crap. it'd be one thing if wie was just getting favors because she was cute or related to the queen of england or something. but she is a HUGE draw to events. my guess is ur friend is not.

the sponsors exemptions are coming in because she makes those ppl a lot of money. hell in the US open qualifier they stopped letting ppl onto the course because they lacked the ability to handle them.

her showing up is worth millions.

fontaine

06-07-2006, 02:58 AM

Look up the word stamina, then look up the word athlete. Big Game fishing tournaments have hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake. These guys have to be in top shape to fight fish all day long, day after day to compete in these tourney's.

So what? Mariners in the early 20th century had to have stamina for days hunting Whales.

A team of whalers had to have enough stamina/skill/strength to row at high speeds over choppy waves in a small boat, force to whale to dive quickly (whales take 15-20 minutes prep time for a deep dive, so a hurried dive means they can't stay underwater for long), then the harpooners had to have enough stamina, strength, and conditioning to harpoon the whale at a specific area (around the blowhole) when it resurfaced, and fight the whale for hours before it bled to death. And yes the prize was tens of thousands of dollars because whale oil is worth it's weight in gold.

Does that make it a sport? Hell no.

Construction work involves strength, skill, conditioning and stamina (ever try scaffolding at 70 feet while balancing heavy boards, pipes). Does that make it a sport?

Just because a group of people declare a competition for pleasure/money/pride doesn't make it a sport.

Otherwise I personally have a friend who's the greatest athlete in the world because he's a skilled champion haggis eater.

broncohaven

06-07-2006, 04:38 AM

Golf is a non-athletic sport, and the fact that a woman can compete with the men proves that. Before you golf fans jump on me, I'm not saying that golf is easy. It's an extremely hard sport to play. It's just played by highly skilled non-athletes. If golfers were athletes, then a woman wouldn't be able to play on their tour.

The only other sports that I can think of where a woman can compete with the men are pool and bowling, which are both non-athletic sports. I've never seen a woman compete with them, but I'd think that men wouldn't hold much of an advantage over women in those sports, if any advantage at all.

In any athletic sport, women cannot compete with men. Take the top woman in the WNBA. No way she could make an NBA roster. You'll never see a woman playing pro football, not even college unless it's as a kicker. And that hasn't really worked. Women won't be able to play baseball. Not track. The top high school boys run faster times than the women's world records.

Tennis was brought up as a possible sport that women could play with the men. Sorry, but that doesn't work either. The top women would struggle against men who aren't even close to being ranked.

Now, I'm not here bashing women. I'm just answering the question. I enjoy some women's sports. Women's tennis is more exciting than the mens. I like watching women run at track events. Women have every right to play sports. The point is that we won't see any women playing with the men in any athletic sport.
This is the dumbest take I've heard in a long time. You're saying that golf is not athleitc because a woman can compete with a man? Where is this happening? Wie is hardly competing with the best men in the world. She hasn't made a cut in a high level men's event. She hasn't qualified for a men's event (all sponsors exemptions). I guess the fact that there have been women football players in college nullifies football as an athletic endeavor.

What Wie has done agianst the men thus far is the equivilent of a woman being the #3 place kicker on a division I football team. Mostly a token gesture that I would say hardly contitutes real competition.

redrage

06-07-2006, 04:47 AM

Just because a group of people declare a competition for pleasure/money/pride doesn't make it a sport.

I guess I just have a looser definition of the word 'sport'. Personally I think if something does involve physical skill, be it strength, stamina, hand-eye coordination, etc., and people are competing with one another for pleasure or prize, then it is sport.

If construction workers wanted see who could build a house faster/better for a pot of money or just bravado, I see nothing wrong with calling it a sport.

How about the outdoor games? I see those contests as sport.

But just because something can be a sport doesn't mean that it is entertaining to watch. I wouldn't care to watch house building nor do I care to view some of those fringe sports in the Olympic like curling or trampoline (??). Some people think it's ridiculous to watch golf, which is why they probably don't give that sport its due credit as a true sport.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-07-2006, 05:11 AM

Does that make it a sport? Hell no.

Uh, hell yes it's a sport.
You apparently, like some others here, need to look up the definitions of "sport" and "athlete". I posted them for you but you must have missed it.

fontaine

06-07-2006, 06:27 AM

I guess I just have a looser definition of the word 'sport'. Personally I think if something does involve physical skill, be it strength, stamina, hand-eye coordination, etc., and people are competing with one another for pleasure or prize, then it is sport.

If construction workers wanted see who could build a house faster/better for a pot of money or just bravado, I see nothing wrong with calling it a sport.

How about the outdoor games? I see those contests as sport.

But just because something can be a sport doesn't mean that it is entertaining to watch. I wouldn't care to watch house building nor do I care to view some of those fringe sports in the Olympic like curling or trampoline (??). Some people think it's ridiculous to watch golf, which is why they probably don't give that sport its due credit as a true sport.

I agree with what you're saying because, essentially, your definition of sport is more accomodating. That's fair enough.

But at the same time, it doesn't make some else wrong if their definition of sport is more strict and they disagree.

fontaine

06-07-2006, 06:32 AM

Uh, hell yes it's a sport.
You apparently, like some others here, need to look up the definitions of "sport" and "athlete". I posted them for you but you must have missed it.

Man, I'm not even going to answer to the main point of your post because you totally, completely and utterly failed to understand mine.

Archie

06-07-2006, 06:56 AM

....

Just because a group of people declare a competition for pleasure/money/pride doesn't make it a sport.

Otherwise I personally have a friend who's the greatest athlete in the world because he's a skilled champion haggis eater.

Hello, McFly.... McFly....

Why is it that in this thread people have refused to distinguish between "sport" and "athlete"? Dude.... Your dead wrong. You could not be more wrong in your statement above. The very definition of sport is "a source of diversion" and "a physical activity engaged in for pleasure". So it would seem that "people declaring a competition for pleasure/money/pride" by definition makes it a sport.

But... being a sport does not make the participants athletes... Your friend, I guess, would be a world class haggis eater but his being an athlete will have to rest on other grounds.

Jason in LA

06-07-2006, 07:00 AM

This is the dumbest take I've heard in a long time. You're saying that golf is not athleitc because a woman can compete with a man? Where is this happening? Wie is hardly competing with the best men in the world. She hasn't made a cut in a high level men's event. She hasn't qualified for a men's event (all sponsors exemptions). I guess the fact that there have been women football players in college nullifies football as an athletic endeavor.

What Wie has done agianst the men thus far is the equivilent of a woman being the #3 place kicker on a division I football team. Mostly a token gesture that I would say hardly contitutes real competition.

The funny thing about message boards is that when you don't agree with it, just call it dumb.

I don't agree with your points, but I'm not going to say they are dumb.

Your points have already been brought up, so I'm not going to go into a whole lot of detail. You can read all the responces.

Wie is playing with the men, and not coming in dead last. Put her in any athletic sport against the men and she gets smashed by 2nd and 3rd tier men. I used the Williams sisters in tennis as an example. They challenged a man ranked 203rd in the world, and he killed them with ease. He said that he even went easy on his serve.

You say that Wie is playing equivilent of NCAA football. I'm not going to say that's dumb, I'll say that it's way off base. Those female kickers rarely see the field, if ever. Wie is beating men who are trying to qualifing for a major tournament. Somebody said that she's competing on the same level as golfers ranked around 150 or so. That's very good. She's nearly making the cut against pros. That's like a woman making it to the final cut down day at an NFL camp. She's way past being a 3rd string kicker on a college team. And none of those kickers have done anything of note. Wie is nearly making the cut.

What is the argument going to be when she finally does make the cut?

The point is that you will never see a woman as high up as Wie is in an athletic sport. Name a woman in football, basketball, baseball, track, hockey, or tennis who has competed with the men like Wie has. I've made the point that the top women's sprinters couldn't compete with high school boys. A woman sprinter getting as far as Wie has would mean that she made it to the Olympic qualifiers, beat some of the men, and fell just short of making the Olympic team. Put a woman in those qualifiers and she comes in dead last in her very first heat.

Jason in LA

06-07-2006, 07:11 AM

Hello, McFly.... McFly....

Why is it that in this thread people have refused to distinguish between "sport" and "athlete"? Dude.... Your dead wrong. You could not be more wrong in your statement above. The very definition of sport is "a source of diversion" and "a physical activity engaged in for pleasure". So it would seem that "people declaring a competition for pleasure/money/pride" by definition makes it a sport.

But... being a sport does not make the participants athletes... Your friend, I guess, would be a world class haggis eater but his being an athlete will have to rest on other grounds.

I swear we are on the same wave link or something. People might start thinking we are the same person. ;D

I have no problem calling any physical competition a sport. Golf is a sport. Pool, bowling, hunting, fishing. All sports.

But I can't look at a player in football, basketball, hockey, tennis, or a sprinter, and put them in the same catogory as a golfer. I consider an athlete as somebody that pushes his/her body to the limit. That is able to perform feats that are far superior to what the average person can do phyically. I just can't put a golfer in that catogory. Sure, they have a skill that's far superior to the average Joe. But like I've argued, that skill isn't based on athletic ability.

redrage

06-07-2006, 07:19 AM

Personally I think some of the takes on this board are rather sexist.

Are men physically superior to women? Yes. That's not sexist, that's just plain old fact. But to claim that something isn't a sport because women happen to be closer to the men in skill is pretty narrowminded, isn't it?

Take gymnastics, for instance. Sure there are plenty of apparatus that the men clearly have an edge in, but there is no way in hell a man could perform better on the balance beam than some of those teenage girls. Does that mean the gymnysts aren't althetes? Of course not. Doesn't that event require a phenomenal amount of athletic skill? Damn right it does.

Does anyone watch the show 'Survivor'? Every time they have a contest that involves some sort of balancing skill, I know before they even do it that the woman (or women) will come out ahead. Easily.

orange 4 life

06-07-2006, 08:39 AM

this is largely crap. it'd be one thing if wie was just getting favors because she was cute or related to the queen of england or something. but she is a HUGE draw to events. my guess is ur friend is not.

the sponsors exemptions are coming in because she makes those ppl a lot of money. hell in the US open qualifier they stopped letting ppl onto the course because they lacked the ability to handle them.

her showing up is worth millions.

are you slow?

i acknowledged that its done because she's a huge draw. because it makes money. OF COURSE thats why its done. i said that from the beginning rain man. what part of that dont you get?

the point (again) is that many male players out there bust their asses for those last few spots, and they (and fans like myself) have every right to be irritated seeing a teenage girl who cant make the cut get in instead.

orange 4 life

06-07-2006, 08:50 AM

What is the argument going to be when she finally does make the cut?

The point is that you will never see a woman as high up as Wie is in an athletic sport

ahh hell i thought we were past this.

it IS an athletic sport, and please refer to it as such.
its not AS MUCH an athletic sport as others.
football is more athletic than baseball, and basketball is more athletic than football.
all three of those are more athletic than golf.
doesnt change that theyre all athletic.

AGAIN, if golf were NOT an athletic sport, then a woman somewhere at some time wouldve at least made a damn cut.
in fact, one never has, and thats because golf requires skill AND athletic ability.
seriously, how can we still be on this?

go ahead and say golf doesnt take AS MUCH athletic ability as track or the 4 major team sports, but please stop referring to it as a NON athletic sport when its been PROVEN that it is.

orange 4 life

06-07-2006, 08:55 AM

Sure, they have a skill that's far superior to the average Joe. But like I've argued, that skill isn't based on athletic ability.

great, then for the tenth time tell me why a woman has NEVER EVEN MADE A CUT?

hmmmmm?

could it be because it DOES take athletic ability?

or are you just enough of a chauvenist to think that women arent as coordinated as men?

come on man.
i think there is a big difference between "sport" and "athlete" as well, but given the FACTS here there is no way you can argue that golfers arent athletes.
you CAN and SHOULD say that theyre athletes that are MUCH more skilled than athletic, but theyre athletic none the less.
you obviously dont like it, but its fact.

Archie

06-07-2006, 09:00 AM

great, then for the tenth time tell me why a woman has NEVER EVEN MADE A CUT?
...

Sorry but WRONG....

(although it has been a while)
Babe Zaharias at the 1945 Tucson Open

orange 4 life

06-07-2006, 09:08 AM

I swear we are on the same wave link or something. People might start thinking we are the same person. ;D

I have no problem calling any physical competition a sport. Golf is a sport. Pool, bowling, hunting, fishing. All sports.

But I can't look at a player in football, basketball, hockey, tennis, or a sprinter, and put them in the same catogory as a golfer. I consider an athlete as somebody that pushes his/her body to the limit. That is able to perform feats that are far superior to what the average person can do phyically. I just can't put a golfer in that catogory. Sure, they have a skill that's far superior to the average Joe. But like I've argued, that skill isn't based on athletic ability.

.....and i dont know about hunting and fishing, but in pool women CAN be just as good as men, so a pool player would NOT qualify as an "athlete".

its not rocket science here, and it doesnt matter if in golf the BEST woman in the world is competing with #150 amongst the men, and in tennis theyre competing with #300 and in hockey its #1000.
it doesnt change the fact that in ALL those sports the women CANNOT play with the best men, and the reason for that is they dont possess the same athletic ability.

Archie

06-07-2006, 09:11 AM

ahh hell i thought we were past this.

it IS an athletic sport, and please refer to it as such.
its not AS MUCH an athletic sport as others.
football is more athletic than baseball, and basketball is more athletic than football.
all three of those are more athletic than golf.
doesnt change that theyre all athletic.

AGAIN, if golf were NOT an athletic sport, then a woman somewhere at some time wouldve at least made a damn cut.
in fact, one never has, and thats because golf requires skill AND athletic ability.
seriously, how can we still be on this?

go ahead and say golf doesnt take AS MUCH athletic ability as track or the 4 major team sports, but please stop referring to it as a NON athletic sport when its been PROVEN that it is.

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

Golf does not require (particulary) strength, agility, or stamina. My eight month pregnant wife just played 9 holes last night and for the last two weeks she's shot two of her three best games ever (a pair of 51's). Heck - being pregnant her best score was a 55 and she was typically a 58-60 shooter. She's also shot a 49 while being pregnant (about two months ago).

Golf may be enhanced by strength, agility, or stamina but you can EFFECTIVELY play without them. You can't effectively play real athletic sports without athletic abilities.

I love golf. But - I'm man enough to admit that it's not making me an athlete.

orange 4 life

06-07-2006, 09:12 AM

Sorry but WRONG....

(although it has been a while)
Babe Zaharias at the 1945 Tucson Open

i already listed babe zaharias, but i dont think they had the same cut system that is in effect today.

....and if they did, it kinda says something that is was 60 years ago dontcha think?
...and that she never came close to winning?

im illustrating a point here man, not trying to nitpick history.

rubaiyat

06-07-2006, 09:13 AM

This is a really good and accurate post.

I think it more likely her parents have a hold on her. And are not looking at learning as a natural necessity to success, but that you can WILL victory.

I've seen a whole lotta parents who believe that. It's their kids...they are world beaters. Facts be damned. My kid WILL succeed no matter the fire I toss them into.

orange 4 life

06-07-2006, 09:14 AM

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

Golf does not require (particulary) strength, agility, or stamina. My eight month pregnant wife just played 9 holes last night and for the last two weeks she's shot her best game ever (a pair of 51's). Heck - being pregnant her best score was a 55 and she was typically a 58-60 shooter. She's even shot a 49 while being pregnant (about two months ago).

Golf may be enhanced by strength, agility, or stamina but you can EFFECTIVELY play without them. You can't effectively play real athletic sports.

I love golf. But - I'm man enough to admit that it's not making me an athlete.

your wife might also throw the nicest spiral of her life tomorrow also, but that wont make her a football player.
because someone goes out onto a course doesnt make them an athlete OR a golfer.

to play golf at even a MODERATELY high level (say under 10 handicap which is nowhere NEAR professional) REQUIRES some or all of those things.

redrage

06-07-2006, 09:15 AM

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

Golf does not require (particulary) strength, agility, or stamina. My eight month pregnant wife just played 9 holes last night and for the last two weeks she's shot two of her three best games ever (a pair of 51's). Heck - being pregnant her best score was a 55 and she was typically a 58-60 shooter. She's also shot a 49 while being pregnant (about two months ago).

Golf may be enhanced by strength, agility, or stamina but you can EFFECTIVELY play without them. You can't effectively play real athletic sports without athletic abilities.

I love golf. But - I'm man enough to admit that it's not making me an athlete.

I see my fatso neighbor playing basketball in pickup games frequently. He is about as far from athletic as you can get. I suppose, then that LeBron James isn't an athlete? That's the logic you are displaying.

redrage

06-07-2006, 09:18 AM

Golf does not require (particulary) strength, agility, or stamina.

This is where I realize that my argument is going to fall on deaf ears regardless of the validity of my points.

Jason in LA

06-07-2006, 09:25 AM

ahh hell i thought we were past this.

it IS an athletic sport, and please refer to it as such.
its not AS MUCH an athletic sport as others.
football is more athletic than baseball, and basketball is more athletic than football.
all three of those are more athletic than golf.
doesnt change that theyre all athletic.

AGAIN, if golf were NOT an athletic sport, then a woman somewhere at some time wouldve at least made a damn cut.
in fact, one never has, and thats because golf requires skill AND athletic ability.
seriously, how can we still be on this?

go ahead and say golf doesnt take AS MUCH athletic ability as track or the 4 major team sports, but please stop referring to it as a NON athletic sport when its been PROVEN that it is.

I agreed that there is a bit of athletics involved in golf, and you agreed that golf is not as athletic as the other sports. We both gave a bit on our stance, but I never agreed to call golf an athletic sport. I said that the degree of athletic ability in golf is so low that I will not call it an athletic sport.

orange 4 life

06-07-2006, 09:30 AM

I see my fatso neighbor playing basketball in pickup games frequently. He is about as far from athletic as you can get. I suppose, then that LeBron James isn't an athlete? That's the logic you are displaying.

exactly.

again, playing golf at even a MODERATELY high level requires strength, agility, AND stamina.

i should know.
ive busted my behind (all be it struggling with a permanently handicapped back) the last year and still have only got to an 8.6 handicap.

orange 4 life

06-07-2006, 09:34 AM

I agreed that there is a bit of athletics involved in golf, and you agreed that golf is not as athletic as the other sports. We both gave a bit on our stance, but I never agreed to call golf an athletic sport. I said that the degree of athletic ability in golf is so low that I will not call it an athletic sport.

then we're back where we started unfortunately.

its SUBSTANTIALLY less athletic than the other sports we've talked about, but there is still ALOT of athletic ability required.

think about it my friend.
if there wasnt a substantial amount of athletic ability required, a woman somewhere at some point in history wouldve at least been able to play with the top 100 men, and in point of FACT thats never happened.

so while ill of course agree that there's LESS athletic ability required than tennis (since that one came up a few times), track (your sport), or basketball (my old sport), there is still MORE than enough to call it an athletic sport.

how you could dispute that given the facts is beyond me.

Arkansas Bronco

06-07-2006, 09:54 AM

Sorry but WRONG....

(although it has been a while)
Babe Zaharias at the 1945 Tucson Open

Wasnt she very good though? What I mean by that is dominating other women. Like I said before I wouldnt mind at all if she (Wei) was trying this because she had no competion in the LPGA but as of right now i dont see her dominating there the way tiger has in the PGA. Hell has she even won a tourney in the LPGA? So when she can pull that off then come and try out untill then go practice and work harder on your game.

Archie

06-07-2006, 10:00 AM

Wasnt she very good though? What I mean by that is dominating other women. Like I said before I wouldnt mind at all if she (Wei) was trying this because she had no competion in the LPGA but as of right now i dont see her dominating there the way tiger has in the PGA. Hell has she even won a tourney in the LPGA? So when she can pull that off then come and try out untill then go practice and work harder on your game.

ok - so I'll grant you that.... I think it would be a lot smarter for Wie to focus on the LPGA instead of setting her sites on "making the cut" in a men's tournament. Maybe this is back to what Nike wants for their $10M plus vs. what Wie and her family wants (but I dont' see them complaining).

I won't go so far as to say that "she's taking a spot from a worthy male opponent". The sponsors are doing that, it's their right to do that and if the displaced male is pissed off about it they just need to play better so it's not a question of the last spot to get on a tournament roster.

Archie

06-07-2006, 10:02 AM

This is where I realize that my argument is going to fall on deaf ears regardless of the validity of my points.

ditto

Arkansas Bronco

06-07-2006, 10:09 AM

ok - so I'll grant you that.... I think it would be a lot smarter for Wie to focus on the LPGA instead of setting her sites on "making the cut" in a men's tournament. Maybe this is back to what Nike wants for their $10M plus vs. what Wie and her family wants (but I dont' see them complaining).

I won't go so far as to say that "she's taking a spot from a worthy male opponent". The sponsors are doing that, it's their right to do that and if the displaced male is pissed off about it they just need to play better so it's not a question of the last spot to get on a tournament roster.
It is just the media circus everytime that drives me insane. We (the people around memphis) have a young kid (Casey Wittenburg) that grew up around here that is talented but you never hear them talk about him much (when he DOES make a cut), but you here Wei's name all the damned time and I am just sick off it. She doesnt deserve it, well not yet and that is more or less my point.

yavoon

06-07-2006, 11:51 AM

So what? Mariners in the early 20th century had to have stamina for days hunting Whales.

A team of whalers had to have enough stamina/skill/strength to row at high speeds over choppy waves in a small boat, force to whale to dive quickly (whales take 15-20 minutes prep time for a deep dive, so a hurried dive means they can't stay underwater for long), then the harpooners had to have enough stamina, strength, and conditioning to harpoon the whale at a specific area (around the blowhole) when it resurfaced, and fight the whale for hours before it bled to death. And yes the prize was tens of thousands of dollars because whale oil is worth it's weight in gold.

Does that make it a sport? Hell no.

Construction work involves strength, skill, conditioning and stamina (ever try scaffolding at 70 feet while balancing heavy boards, pipes). Does that make it a sport?

Just because a group of people declare a competition for pleasure/money/pride doesn't make it a sport.

Otherwise I personally have a friend who's the greatest athlete in the world because he's a skilled champion haggis eater.

an organized competition requiring physical skills? sounds like a sport to me.

yavoon

06-07-2006, 11:53 AM

It is just the media circus everytime that drives me insane. We (the people around memphis) have a young kid (Casey Wittenburg) that grew up around here that is talented but you never hear them talk about him much (when he DOES make a cut), but you here Wei's name all the damned time and I am just sick off it. She doesnt deserve it, well not yet and that is more or less my point.

why not? at 14 she was a stroke(maybe 2?) from making a PGA tour cut. a 14 year old girl. in the lpga she has yet to win(not good) but w/o being a member and while being an amateur she has climbed to second in the lpga's rankings.

she has hardly underperformed.

Arkansas Bronco

06-07-2006, 11:54 AM

why not? at 14 she was a stroke(maybe 2?) from making a PGA tour cut. a 14 year old girl. in the lpga she has yet to win(not good) but w/o being a member and while being an amateur she has climbed to second in the lpga's rankings.

she has hardly underperformed.
What has she won?

yavoon

06-07-2006, 11:55 AM

are you slow?

i acknowledged that its done because she's a huge draw. because it makes money. OF COURSE thats why its done. i said that from the beginning rain man. what part of that dont you get?

the point (again) is that many male players out there bust their asses for those last few spots, and they (and fans like myself) have every right to be irritated seeing a teenage girl who cant make the cut get in instead.

no they don't. they aren't even in the same league as michelle and they have no such "rights."

yavoon

06-07-2006, 11:55 AM

What has she won?

she's only 16. and the instant she wins that will disappear and u will be left w/ no leg to stand on. unless u contend she is incapable of winning.

yavoon

06-07-2006, 11:57 AM

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

Golf does not require (particulary) strength, agility, or stamina. My eight month pregnant wife just played 9 holes last night and for the last two weeks she's shot two of her three best games ever (a pair of 51's). Heck - being pregnant her best score was a 55 and she was typically a 58-60 shooter. She's also shot a 49 while being pregnant (about two months ago).

Golf may be enhanced by strength, agility, or stamina but you can EFFECTIVELY play without them. You can't effectively play real athletic sports without athletic abilities.

I love golf. But - I'm man enough to admit that it's not making me an athlete.

again wrong, golf requires strength, stamina and extreme levels of coordination.

Arkansas Bronco

06-07-2006, 12:02 PM

she's only 16. and the instant she wins that will disappear and u will be left w/ no leg to stand on. unless u contend she is incapable of winning.
Well that is a full 2 years with nothing to show so far her win % is crap Tiger started winning when he first started up. I wasnt knocking her till you started defending her like she is the greatest thing golf has ever produced. The most interesting thing she has done is step on someone elses line on the green.

yavoon

06-07-2006, 12:10 PM

Well that is a full 2 years with nothing to show so far her win % is crap Tiger started winning when he first started up. I wasnt knocking her till you started defending her like she is the greatest thing golf has ever produced. The most interesting thing she has done is step on someone elses line on the green.

she is most certainly not a full 2 years in anything.

she has produced a lot, she has finished just below the cut on a pga tour event, made the cut in a mens tour event, finished second in an lpga major, and is currently rated as the second best female golfer on the planet even though she barely qualifies for # of tournaments played. I believe if u compare her head to head vs other female golfers(tournaments they have both entered) she only has a losing record vs annika and plasters most of the others.

perhaps thats not a resume to u, but for a 16 year old thats galactically impressive.

Archie

06-07-2006, 02:30 PM

again wrong, golf requires strength, stamina and extreme levels of coordination.

Strength - no....
Stamina - no, not really

coordination - not part of the defintion above.

I play one to two rounds of golf a week. I love the game. It's a great SPORT. I totally disagree it is a sport that relys on athleticism. If you feel this makes you an inferior person that's your problem but stop hoping to defend your athleticisim with golf.

rubaiyat

06-07-2006, 04:22 PM

It is just the media circus everytime that drives me insane. We (the people around memphis) have a young kid (Casey Wittenburg) that grew up around here that is talented but you never hear them talk about him much (when he DOES make a cut), but you here Wei's name all the damned time and I am just sick off it. She doesnt deserve it, well not yet and that is more or less my point.

That's modern sports for you. ALL modern sports. How many next Jordans have we had in the last decade, a dozen? How many have actually done anything? 1 maybe 2??

yavoon

06-07-2006, 04:26 PM

Strength - no....
Stamina - no, not really

coordination - not part of the defintion above.

I play one to two rounds of golf a week. I love the game. It's a great SPORT. I totally disagree it is a sport that relys on athleticism. If you feel this makes you an inferior person that's your problem but stop hoping to defend your athleticisim with golf.

its complete insanity to even imply that golf does not require strength or stamina. I dont even know how to respond to it.

rubaiyat

06-07-2006, 04:30 PM

she is most certainly not a full 2 years in anything.

she has produced a lot, she has finished just below the cut on a pga tour event, made the cut in a mens tour event, finished second in an lpga major, and is currently rated as the second best female golfer on the planet even though she barely qualifies for # of tournaments played. I believe if u compare her head to head vs other female golfers(tournaments they have both entered) she only has a losing record vs annika and plasters most of the others.

perhaps thats not a resume to u, but for a 16 year old thats galactically impressive.

My only thing is she needs better handlers with no self interest. She needs people that will train her. Not how to play. Her first half 2-under was clearly indicative that she can hang with the boys. She needs to learn to win. That is something she has consistently shown to fail at, here, at the last major where she missed out on winning or at least joining the playoff, and elsewhere.

She hasn't learnt how to lock in on winning. Hey, she's got ice in her veins compared to me...certainly compared to midteens me...but I ain't a pro athlete. If she wants to be successful, that is what she needs to do.

yavoon

06-07-2006, 04:33 PM

My only thing is she needs better handlers with no self interest. She needs people that will train her. Not how to play. Her first half 2-under was clearly indicative that she can hang with the boys. She needs to learn to win. That is something she has consistently shown to fail at, here, at the last major where she missed out on winning or at least joining the playoff, and elsewhere.

She hasn't learnt how to lock in on winning. Hey, she's got ice in her veins compared to me...certainly compared to midteens me...but I ain't a pro athlete. If she wants to be successful, that is what she needs to do.

in all likelihood she will win and this argument will prove as hollow as all the others used against her.

then when she's 26 we'll all be talking about all the experience she has because she has competed on such a high level for so long.

rubaiyat

06-07-2006, 04:42 PM

in all likelihood she will win and this argument will prove as hollow as all the others used against her.

then when she's 26 we'll all be talking about all the experience she has because she has competed on such a high level for so long.
Or she could dominate people her age and other amateurs...then consistently dominate the LPGA tourney...then go after the men.

I go NO prob with her competing now...if she actually could compete.

I have no axe to grind with Wie and am her most vocal supporter among my friends. I've seen some insane parental pressure to succeed. Unless her parents are world class athletes, they have no idea how to make one, but are likely forcing behavior that they think will do exactly as you describe.

But you need to learn to walk before you can run. Ankiel would have probably liked a little more time before getting thrown to the wolved by LaRussa...hell La Russa has said as much that it was his mistake.

Tiger DOMINATED at every level before moving to the next. I believe winning three US junior amateur championships in a row...before deciding he needed higher competition.

Maybe Wie doesn't need that much, but it would be nice to see her be allowed to develop a winner's mentality rather than a "hey, it was nice to compete" with no expectations for success.

And sure she's ranked high...so was the Shark, but he only won two majors and while a great player not an all-time great. And he lead money boards consistently...by being consistently #2 or top 5 in every tourney he was in.

If that's all you want out of Wie, fine, but as a singular talent, I wouldn't mind her getting more education.

yavoon

06-07-2006, 04:49 PM

Or she could dominate people her age and other amateurs...then consistently dominate the LPGA tourney...then go after the men.

I go NO prob with her competing now...if she actually could compete.

I have no axe to grind with Wie and am her most vocal supporter among my friends. I've seen some insane parental pressure to succeed. Unless her parents are world class athletes, they have no idea how to make one, but are likely forcing behavior that they think will do exactly as you describe.

But you need to learn to walk before you can run. Ankiel would have probably liked a little more time before getting thrown to the wolved by LaRussa...hell La Russa has said as much that it was his mistake.

Tiger DOMINATED at every level before moving to the next. I believe winning three US junior amateur championships in a row...before deciding he needed higher competition.

Maybe Wie doesn't need that much, but it would be nice to see her be allowed to develop a winner's mentality rather than a "hey, it was nice to compete" with no expectations for success.

And sure she's ranked high...so was the Shark, but he only won two majors and while a great player not an all-time great. And he lead money boards consistently...by being consistently #2 or top 5 in every tourney he was in.

If that's all you want out of Wie, fine, but as a singular talent, I wouldn't mind her getting more education.

its complete unincumbered DRIVEL to even IMPLY that she can't compete. she has done better than most ppl have expected in nearly every tournament she has entered. she is the second best female golfer on the planet RIGHT NOW. and she has made the cut in a mens event, and almost made the cut in a pga tour event. it is offensive to my intelligence that u would consider that track record "not competing."

rubaiyat

06-07-2006, 04:58 PM

its complete unincumbered DRIVEL to even IMPLY that she can't compete. she has done better than most ppl have expected in nearly every tournament she has entered. she is the second best female golfer on the planet RIGHT NOW. and she has made the cut in a mens event, and almost made the cut in a pga tour event. it is offensive to my intelligence that u would consider that track record "not competing."

Compared to a similar golf phenom by the name of Tiger? No it isn't.

Why not enter, and yes, absolutely humiliate and dominate her competition there? She won't learn how to push herself against much higher comp...she WILL learn how to win. How to play with leads. How to finish rounds. Something I've SEEN her fail at multiple times. Again, I'm a fan, I WANT her to succeed. Maybe she will learn eventually. But given she's so far never been a favorite and playing the underdog, she's never played against the highest levels of pressure. Everytime she has, she's made mental mistakes.

As you said, she's 16. She ain't exactly on the clock here. What HARM is there in her dominating people at her level before moving to the next step?

We've seen someone do EXACTLY that...and it worked out to someone with 8 major victories and counting.

We have a positive control this path for a prodigy works. What is your proof to the contrary?

yavoon

06-07-2006, 05:05 PM

Compared to a similar golf phenom by the name of Tiger? No it isn't.

Why not enter, and yes, absolutely humiliate and dominate her competition there? She won't learn how to push herself against much higher comp...she WILL learn how to win. How to play with leads. How to finish rounds. Something I've SEEN her fail at multiple times. Again, I'm a fan, I WANT her to succeed. Maybe she will learn eventually. But given she's so far never been a favorite and playing the underdog, she's never played against the highest levels of pressure. Everytime she has, she's made mental mistakes.

As you said, she's 16. She ain't exactly on the clock here. What HARM is there in her dominating people at her level before moving to the next step?

We've seen someone do EXACTLY that...and it worked out to someone with 8 major victories and counting.

We have a positive control this path for a prodigy works. What is your proof to the contrary?

she's not tiger woods, nor does she need to be tiger woods to justify her attempts at achieving great things. nor do ppl need to pretend like tiger woods is good because he followed his path and not because he is an insane talent.

to me she is brave and adventurous for attempting what she has attempted and u would rather her be quiet. and that would be a crime.

the harm would be missing out on the opportunity to accomplish great feats. put it this way:

right now michelle wie is considered the possible equal of a lot of men, is the second best female golfer in the world in ranking, and in a lot of ppl's perception, and possibly the best golfer in terms of talent.

there is NO WAY IN HELL she could accomplish the skill level she currently posesses by playing high school tournaments. if u would like a suitable example, annika began her TEAR through the lpga after playing her pga event. now imagine if she had done that a lot sooner?

make no mistake, michelle is a vastly better golfer than she would otherwise be, BECAUSE of the path she has taken.

rubaiyat

06-07-2006, 05:16 PM

she's not tiger woods, nor does she need to be tiger woods to justify her attempts at achieving great things. nor do ppl need to pretend like tiger woods is good because he followed his path and not because he is an insane talent.

to me she is brave and adventurous for attempting what she has attempted and u would rather her be quiet. and that would be a crime.

the harm would be missing out on the opportunity to accomplish great feats. put it this way:

right now michelle wie is considered the possible equal of a lot of men, is the second best female golfer in the world in ranking, and in a lot of ppl's perception, and possibly the best golfer in terms of talent.

there is NO WAY IN HELL she could accomplish the skill level she currently posesses by playing high school tournaments. if u would like a suitable example, annika began her TEAR through the lpga after playing her pga event. now imagine if she had done that a lot sooner?

make no mistake, michelle is a vastly better golfer than she would otherwise be, BECAUSE of the path she has taken.

As I said, yes in pushing herself against better talent. But golf is mental as much as physical. We will see if her continued underdog role will serve her well later on, when exceptional potential and raw youth are no longer excuses. Cause, given her talent, just winning isn't enough. It would be an utter waste if just winning was something to be satisfied with. She should be DOMINANT.

You are not informing my opinion. I've addressed most of your points. We will see I suppose.

EDIT - And what is the quiet have to do with anything? I said I'm a fan. I've watched most every event she's been in. But pulling for her and watching her fade is not the pinnacle of what I see as her amazing potential. But you gotta learn to win as much as compete.

yavoon

06-07-2006, 05:45 PM

As I said, yes in pushing herself against better talent. But golf is mental as much as physical. We will see if her continued underdog role will serve her well later on, when exceptional potential and raw youth are no longer excuses. Cause, given her talent, just winning isn't enough. It would be an utter waste if just winning was something to be satisfied with. She should be DOMINANT.

You are not informing my opinion. I've addressed most of your points. We will see I suppose.

EDIT - And what is the quiet have to do with anything? I said I'm a fan. I've watched most every event she's been in. But pulling for her and watching her fade is not the pinnacle of what I see as her amazing potential. But you gotta learn to win as much as compete.

excuses for what? she's nearly the best female golfer on the planet? I was unaware she required excuses.

and its complete unfounded conjecture and IMO the reverse of reality to say that beating up high school kids would make her a better golfer. but whatever.

Archie

06-07-2006, 09:10 PM

its complete insanity to even imply that golf does not require strength or stamina. I dont even know how to respond to it.

Are you kidding me? Please! Unless you are saying the strength of the average person is required (ie you can't be unusually weak - I'll buy that). And I suppose unless you are saying you have to have the stamina to go on a leisurely five mile walk. Ok, I'll buy that..

But - if you are saying playing golf requires strength and stamina beyond what the average person posses - then your full of it. Some of the best players in the world posses average strength and stamina. Heck - Casey Martin didn't have the stamina to make the 5 mile walk and certainly not the strength but he otherwise had the ability to play on the tour.

You guys have to give it up, really!

Mile High Shack

06-07-2006, 09:19 PM

Jason in LA

06-07-2006, 09:58 PM

Recently I was talking with a guy that said he was thinking about giving up his career to focus solely on golf. He said he's played in many tournaments, and he said he believes that with extra work he can make a good run at a pro career. I didn't ask him how long he's been playing, but I got the impression that he's been playing for a long time. He must be very good to be thinking about making a run at a pro career.

Anyway, I asked him if he thought golfers were athletes. He laughed and said no. He said he plays almost daily. He plays every weekend and days off. Looking at him, nobody would mistake him for being an athlete. Most golfers don't look like athletes.

I bet we could ask a lot of pro golfers and they would tell us that they don't consider themselves as athletes.

azbroncfan

06-08-2006, 01:17 AM

do me a favor
go walk 18 holes in 95 degree heat for 4 strait days and hit about 75 balls a round......and see how you feel after the fourth day

If you hit that many balls a round you can count on only playing 2 rounds most of the time. :)

yavoon

06-08-2006, 01:33 AM

I bet we could ask a lot of pro golfers and they would tell us that they don't consider themselves as athletes.

so thats why a lot of them work out now, because golf doesn't require athletic skill.

interesting.

like I've said before, there is no reasonable definition of athleticism u can give that excludes golfers and includes olympians.

u just can't. golf has all the requirements of athletics, it requires coordination, strength and stamina. this shouldn't even be a conversation IMO.

yavoon

06-08-2006, 01:37 AM

Are you kidding me? Please! Unless you are saying the strength of the average person is required (ie you can't be unusually weak - I'll buy that). And I suppose unless you are saying you have to have the stamina to go on a leisurely five mile walk. Ok, I'll buy that..

But - if you are saying playing golf requires strength and stamina beyond what the average person posses - then your full of it. Some of the best players in the world posses average strength and stamina. Heck - Casey Martin didn't have the stamina to make the 5 mile walk and certainly not the strength but he otherwise had the ability to play on the tour.

You guys have to give it up, really!

have u ever seen tiger woods hit a golf ball? there is no way on gods earth ur hips move as fast as his. his explosion is near frightening because of his high level of athletic ability. and most other golfers have well developed muscles in the important areas, much like pitchers. u can watch david wells walk to the mound and say "hah I can throw a ball from the mound and I'm fat as **** and he's fat as ****!" but wells posesses an athleticism u can't hope to compete against.

as for stamina, its not about crossing the finish line its about being able to perform at 100% in a major tournament for 4 days of 18 holes. if ur worn down to 85-90% thats no big deal if ur just a regular golfer, but its disasterous to professionals.

watermock

06-08-2006, 01:57 AM

Your all missing the point. She hasn't made a PGA cut once, but she has made MILLIONS in endorsements, just like Danika Patrick. She's a fine young golfer, but hasn't won on the LPGA tour yet alone make a PGA cut. Doesn't mean she's not hauling in millions in endorsements. Her days of PGA exemptions are coming to a close. She has zero charisma but is making out like a bandit. It's the whole "gender breaking youngster" story that the media loves. Stone cold fact is she has never made a PGA cut and never won at the LPGA but she's always the media story.

I'm sure she will win on the LPGA, but she hasn't yet. Not bad for allready bagging around 30 million in appearance fees and endorsements.

watermock

06-08-2006, 01:59 AM

Tiger's driving ability is horrific. His strength is getting out of trouble in the rough and bunkers and putting when he's on. He consistently misses the fairway. That's why he is amazing. He gets out of virtually horrific situations and puts it by the cup for a gimme. It's amazing. He might drive long, but hasn't had a straight drive for a couple years since he went to a Nike driver.

broncohaven

06-08-2006, 05:24 AM

she's not tiger woods, nor does she need to be tiger woods to justify her attempts at achieving great things. nor do ppl need to pretend like tiger woods is good because he followed his path and not because he is an insane talent.

to me she is brave and adventurous for attempting what she has attempted and u would rather her be quiet. and that would be a crime.

the harm would be missing out on the opportunity to accomplish great feats. put it this way:

right now michelle wie is considered the possible equal of a lot of men, is the second best female golfer in the world in ranking, and in a lot of ppl's perception, and possibly the best golfer in terms of talent.

there is NO WAY IN HELL she could accomplish the skill level she currently posesses by playing high school tournaments. if u would like a suitable example, annika began her TEAR through the lpga after playing her pga event. now imagine if she had done that a lot sooner?

make no mistake, michelle is a vastly better golfer than she would otherwise be, BECAUSE of the path she has taken.
This post is rife with misinformation. First, Wie is not considered the "possible equal of a lot of men" by anyone within the golfing industry. That's a media creation that seems to be working given that you seem to think she's the #2 ranked women's golfer in the world. Wie is, in fact, not among the top 10:

Women's world rankings
5 June
1 Annika Sorenstam Swe 16.99 pts ave
2 Lorena Ochoa Mex 9.07
3 Paula Creamer US 8.18
4 Karrie Webb Aus 7.61
5 Cristie Kerr US 7.18
6 Yuri Fudoh Jpn 7.07
7 Juli Inkster US 6.35
8 Morgan Pressel US 6.29
9 Hee-Won Han Kor 5.84
10 Ai Miyazato Jpn 5.57

She's not even the highest ranked teenager. She'd be #3 in that category behind Paula Creamer and Morgan Pressel. You're take is the perfect example of Wie's prowess being blown completely out of proportion.

Annika had won 5 Major Championships (two in a row), and was winning 75% of the tournaments she entered BEFORE she ever played with the men. Wie has accomplished very little in the game. She's won only one tournament that wasn't a junior level event, and that was against amatuers. She's won nothing at the professional level, and proven nothing against the men.

There are at least 20 LPGA players who could make the cut in the Asian tournament that Wie did, but they don't try because they know that it means nothing. Wie is a good golfer with tremendous talent, but the fact is her greatest accomplishment thus far is being six feet tall at 16 years old.

Bronco_Beerslug

06-08-2006, 05:52 AM

Man, I'm not even going to answer to the main point of your post because you totally, completely and utterly failed to understand mine. LOL
Sure you're not because you actually looked up the definition and seen ooops, "I'm the one that doesn't understand what a sport is".

Tiger's driving ability is horrific. Only a Iowa Wolverine hunter would say something this dim.

Her days of PGA exemptions are coming to a close. She has zero charisma I forgot, you live in some old farmhouse that doesn't have electricity and get your news via the checkerboard table boys in front of the general store?

fontaine

06-08-2006, 05:52 AM

Bronco_Beerslug

06-08-2006, 06:09 AM

Wie has accomplished very little in the game. She's won only one tournament that wasn't a junior level event, and that was against amatuers. She's won nothing at the professional level, and proven nothing against the men.

Yep, she's the ripe old age of 16 and hasn't won a tournament on the PGA or LPGA yet, she should give the game up.

I bet the guys she's finished ahead of in the Sony Open's (especially the 2004 Open where she beat 50 PGA professionals) and Deere Classic were wishing that anyway.

broncohaven

06-08-2006, 07:44 AM

Yep, she's the ripe old age of 16 and hasn't won a tournament on the PGA or LPGA yet, she should give the game up.

I bet the guys she's finished ahead of in the Sony Open's (especially the 2004 Open where she beat 50 PGA professionals) and Deere Classic were wishing that anyway.
What's wrong with you? I haven't said one thing about Wie not having the potential for greatness, but she's misguided. If she dedicates her career to playing against men, she will be a failure. If she dedicates her career to the LPGA, she could be the greatest female golfer the game has ever seen.

The Sony Open is played on her home course. She'd played the course every day of the offseason while the PGA guys show up on tuesday before the tournament and are as rusty as they're ever going to get. She has every possible advantage there, and still doesn't compete.

broncohaven

06-08-2006, 08:02 AM

I bet we could ask a lot of pro golfers and they would tell us that they don't consider themselves as athletes.
I bet you couldn't find one. Answer this. If golf isn't athletic, and only requires repetition then why are people who have played the game all their lives still unable to break 100. Why are only 5% of the golfing population able to break 100, and less than 1% able to shoot under par? By your reasoning anyone who has played for any length of time should be fairly good, but this isn't anywhere close to the truth. Why can professional football players (I would guess you consider them athletic?) pick up a golf club and actually fail to make contact?

So let's look at a list of non-athletic sports using your logic. Triatholon, marathon, tennis, volleyball, the majority of track and field events, college football, hockey. In each of these sports women have "competed" against men, and therefore removes athletic ability from the sport, right?

Bronco_Beerslug

06-08-2006, 08:07 AM

What's wrong with you? I haven't said one thing about Wie not having the potential for greatness, but she's misguided. If she dedicates her career to playing against men, she will be a failure. If she dedicates her career to the LPGA, she could be the greatest female golfer the game has ever seen.

You missed the part about her being only 16. She has plenty of time to play on the LPGA. Her goal is to play on the PGA and she will.

The Sony Open is played on her home course. She'd played the course every day of the offseason while the PGA guys show up on tuesday before the tournament and are as rusty as they're ever going to get. She has every possible advantage there, and still doesn't compete.
You missed some points again. Check out the names she has finished ahead of in the Deere and Sony tourneys. Is the Deere Classic in her backyard?

yavoon

06-08-2006, 10:39 AM

This post is rife with misinformation. First, Wie is not considered the "possible equal of a lot of men" by anyone within the golfing industry. That's a media creation that seems to be working given that you seem to think she's the #2 ranked women's golfer in the world. Wie is, in fact, not among the top 10:

Women's world rankings
5 June
1 Annika Sorenstam Swe 16.99 pts ave
2 Lorena Ochoa Mex 9.07
3 Paula Creamer US 8.18
4 Karrie Webb Aus 7.61
5 Cristie Kerr US 7.18
6 Yuri Fudoh Jpn 7.07
7 Juli Inkster US 6.35
8 Morgan Pressel US 6.29
9 Hee-Won Han Kor 5.84
10 Ai Miyazato Jpn 5.57

She's not even the highest ranked teenager. She'd be #3 in that category behind Paula Creamer and Morgan Pressel. You're take is the perfect example of Wie's prowess being blown completely out of proportion.

Annika had won 5 Major Championships (two in a row), and was winning 75% of the tournaments she entered BEFORE she ever played with the men. Wie has accomplished very little in the game. She's won only one tournament that wasn't a junior level event, and that was against amatuers. She's won nothing at the professional level, and proven nothing against the men.

There are at least 20 LPGA players who could make the cut in the Asian tournament that Wie did, but they don't try because they know that it means nothing. Wie is a good golfer with tremendous talent, but the fact is her greatest accomplishment thus far is being six feet tall at 16 years old.

when the rankings first came out she was 3, then she went to 2, then she was taken off the rankings for not playing enough tournaments. after that I dont know, maybe lorena passed her. if thats true(I dont know) she'll get back to 2 pretty easily.

what this all means is that she's had relatively few chances to collect points and still can attain an incredible ranking.

second in an lpga major isnt an accomplishment? missing the cut on a pga event by 1 stroke at 14 years old isnt an accomplishment? being ranked the second best golfer in the world isnt an accomplishment? and there aren't 20 ppl who could do what she did in korea. maybe if they had some ridiculously good day they could come close. but most dont have the length to compete against the men, the asian tour is the nationwide tour for the europeans, which more or less makes it the 4th best tour in the world.

and just incase u need a link http://golf.about.com/b/a/248570.htm

Jason in LA

06-08-2006, 03:29 PM

So let's look at a list of non-athletic sports using your logic. Triatholon, marathon, tennis, volleyball, the majority of track and field events, college football, hockey. In each of these sports women have "competed" against men, and therefore removes athletic ability from the sport, right?

Using my logic all of those sports are athletic sports, and women haven't competed against men in any of them. I've made my point about some of those sports, and showed that the top women in those sports aren't close to the the men who are just getting by.

No, women haven't competed against men in college football. I guess a few women have made the team as kickers. Have any of them been any good? And do we even consider kickers as football players? Yeah, they are football players, but you know what the running joke is. Get back to me when a woman is a QB, RB, TE, WR, OL, DL, LB, or DB. Then you'll have a point.

Jason in LA

06-08-2006, 03:39 PM

We've pretty much exhausted this argument.

Let me add a new wrinkle, just for fun.

Do you guys consider wrestling a sport, and are they athletes? I'm not talking about "real" wrestling. I'm talking about the soap opera that a lot of us watch. The WWF, or the WWE as it's called now.

I do consider those guys athletes. Sure, it's fake for the most part, but they do very athletic movements. It's as athletic as any other sport. Even though it's fake to some degree, those guys do take a beating. Sure, they do know how to lesson the blow so they don't get hurt, but a lot of those moves do hurt.

But I don't consider it a sport. Anything that is pre-determined isn't a sport. It has sports like qualities. But it's not a true competition. If they were really fighting out there, I'd consider it a sport.

I like the term "sports entertainment" when people talk about wrestling. It does have sports like qualities. The guys are athletes. And it is entertaining to many people.

Master___Pain

06-08-2006, 04:07 PM

Do you guys consider wrestling a sport, and are they athletes? I'm not talking about "real" wrestling. I'm talking about the soap opera that a lot of us watch. The WWF, or the WWE as it's called now.

I do consider those guys athletes. Sure, it's fake for the most part, but they do very athletic movements. It's as athletic as any other sport. Even though it's fake to some degree, those guys do take a beating. Sure, they do know how to lesson the blow so they don't get hurt, but a lot of those moves do hurt.

But I don't consider it a sport. Anything that is pre-determined isn't a sport. It has sports like qualities. But it's not a true competition. If they were really fighting out there, I'd consider it a sport.

I like the term "sports entertainment" when people talk about wrestling. It does have sports like qualities. The guys are athletes. And it is entertaining to many people.

Well, I do think most of those guys are athletes...at least many of them were in former lives. Many of the played college athletics of some kind. Wrestlers are like glorified stunt men to me. What they are doing is not a sport IMO, but they are certainly athletic, if not athletes. Granted most of them are on the juice, hence the freakish physiques.

yavoon

06-08-2006, 04:11 PM

Using my logic all of those sports are athletic sports, and women haven't competed against men in any of them. I've made my point about some of those sports, and showed that the top women in those sports aren't close to the the men who are just getting by.

No, women haven't competed against men in college football. I guess a few women have made the team as kickers. Have any of them been any good? And do we even consider kickers as football players? Yeah, they are football players, but you know what the running joke is. Get back to me when a woman is a QB, RB, TE, WR, OL, DL, LB, or DB. Then you'll have a point.
from what I can tell ur sexist, dumb and have yet to come up w/ a definition for an athlete that stands up to even moderate scrutiny and is capable of achieving the goals u want.

but u do reiterate urself nicely:)

-Slap-

06-08-2006, 05:43 PM

Jason in LA

06-08-2006, 05:52 PM

By that criteria, bouncers are athletes. The average bouncer is going to get into 5-10 fights in any given week, and unlike wrestlers, the outcome of their matches aren't predetermined. Switchblades are scarier than folding chairs, too.

Yeah, but nobody is going to consider somebody throwing a drunk out of a bar as an athlete. There are no "sports qualities" in doing that. Wrestling isn't a sport, but there are "sports qualities".

Jason in LA

06-08-2006, 05:53 PM

from what I can tell ur sexist, dumb and have yet to come up w/ a definition for an athlete that stands up to even moderate scrutiny and is capable of achieving the goals u want.

but u do reiterate urself nicely:)

I'm trying to be nice and ignore posts like this. So I'm not going to throw insults back at you. You win buddy.

-Slap-

06-08-2006, 05:57 PM

rbackfactory80

06-08-2006, 06:05 PM

I think if you really look deep into it, internet message board typers are great athletes also. The coordination, and the stamina, its just unbelievable.

Jason in LA

06-08-2006, 06:24 PM

So, rodeo clowns and stunt men are obviously athletes then.
If you wanna call them athletes, then Slap, they are athletes in my book.:strong:

Jason in LA

06-08-2006, 06:27 PM

I think if you really look deep into it, internet message board typers are great athletes also. The coordination, and the stamina, its just unbelievable.

Okay, I'll play along and give a counter point. I can type at the same speed and the same duration when I'm out of shape as I can when I'm in shape. Also, I was in my best shape in my late teens, early 20s, when I ran track at UCLA. I am in pretty good shape compared to most people my age, but I'm not nearly as athletic as I was back then. But I can type way faster now than I could when I was in great shape.

Yeah, that sounds good. ;D

-Slap-

06-08-2006, 06:32 PM

I think if you really look deep into it, internet message board typers are great athletes also. The coordination, and the stamina, its just unbelievable.
Incredible athletes. They have to wade through bull**** and jump to conclusions. They have to defend their positions and attack the weaknesses in opposing arguments. And, as always, timing is everything.

yavoon

06-08-2006, 07:01 PM

I'm trying to be nice and ignore posts like this. So I'm not going to throw insults back at you. You win buddy.

I could sugarcoat it if u like. but its just my opinion of the quality of ur argument.

Jason in LA

06-08-2006, 07:34 PM

I could sugarcoat it if u like. but its just my opinion of the quality of ur argument.

If you say so buddy.

yavoon

06-08-2006, 07:36 PM

If you say so buddy.

why thank u:)

No1BroncoFan

06-08-2006, 08:19 PM

Their bodies are conditioned to do that because they probably play everyday. I'm sure if the average person played every single day, they would get used to the stress of throwing that ball down the lane over and over.

If I went bowling right now and played a few games, I'd be sore tomorrow. But if I bowled daily, my body would get used to it.

If a normal person bowls on a consistant basis, they will be able to bowl for long periods than the average person.
Didn't you just explain athletic conditioning? ??? Gee, you'd be sore after bowling a couple of games? But I thought bowling didn't require any athleticism at all.

Ben

yavoon

06-08-2006, 08:21 PM

Didn't you just explain athletic conditioning? ??? Gee, you'd be sore after bowling a couple of games? But I thought bowling didn't require any athleticism at all.

Ben

ya I wouldn't bother, not much is rigorous or consistant about his position.

No1BroncoFan

06-08-2006, 08:58 PM

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina
Please note the bolded words. A person skilled in excercises requiring agility, and nothing but agility is an athlete. This would include: Piano players, pool players, and video game players. All of these activities require skills that require agility. The key word in the above quote is "or." To be an athlete you do not have to have strength, agility, and stamina. It's strength, agility, or stamina. Now, since golf, bowling and every other sport that has been discussed in this thread requires exercises, sports, or games with some measure of strength, agility, and stamina, they are all athletic sports, even pool which had previously been discounted.

Now, having said that. I do not believe that the definition of the word matches the modern view of what makes an athlete. Still, the view is not the definition of the word.

Ben

Jason in LA

06-08-2006, 09:17 PM

If you polled 100 random people on whether bowlers are athletes or not, I bet 90 people would laugh at the question.

Sorry, but those guys are not athletes.

No1BroncoFan

06-08-2006, 09:18 PM

Yeah, but nobody is going to consider somebody throwing a drunk out of a bar as an athlete. There are no "sports qualities" in doing that. Wrestling isn't a sport, but there are "sports qualities".
See my previous post. "Sports qualities" are not a requirement of being an athlete. Excercises on the other hand qualify and since you can take classes, learn the skills necessary and go through the excercises of throwing a drunk out of a bar, then bar bouncing does indeed qualify as athletic. It's not a sport, but it is athletic.

Ben

No1BroncoFan

06-08-2006, 09:20 PM

If you polled 100 random people on whether bowlers are athletes or not, I bet 90 people would laugh at the question.

Sorry, but those guys are not athletes.
Like I said, the modern view does not match the definition. However, by definition they are athletes. Your opinion (or the opinion of a million others) does not change that fact.

Ben

Archie

06-08-2006, 09:59 PM

Like I said, the modern view does not match the definition. However, by definition they are athletes. Your opinion (or the opinion of a million others) does not change that fact.

Ben

You have to be sh!tting me... I swear there are more people on this board who play golf or bowl and want to consider themselves athletes then I would have thought...

Give it up... I'm not saying you are not an athlete but playing golf or bowling will not make you one... Sorry if this hurts your ego.

-Slap-

06-08-2006, 10:34 PM

See my previous post. "Sports qualities" are not a requirement of being an athlete. Excercises on the other hand qualify and since you can take classes, learn the skills necessary and go through the excercises of throwing a drunk out of a bar, then bar bouncing does indeed qualify as athletic. It's not a sport, but it is athletic.

Ben
It is athletic and Jason is wrong about people not paying money to watch it. If they had a show that showed nothing but actual video footage of guys getting forcibly ejected from bars and nightclubs, people would watch it religiously. Especially if you had audio.