Official: Iraq civilian deaths unjustified

[gunns]

Yeah, put a gun in a persons hands, send them thousands of miles to a foreign land, in a situation none of us back here can comprehend how it plays with their minds, and tell them to kill the enemy, problem is who is the enemy? Then say naughty, naughty. See Vietnam


By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
1 hour, 20 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - Military investigators probing the deaths last November of about two dozen Iraqi civilians have evidence that points toward unprovoked murders by Marines, a senior defense official said Friday.

The Marine Corps initially reported 15 deaths and said they were caused by a roadside bomb and an ensuing firefight with insurgents. A separate investigation is aimed at determining if Marines lied to cover up the events, which included the deaths of women and children.

If confirmed as unjustified killings, the episode could be the most serious case of criminal misconduct by U.S. troops during three years of combat in Iraq. Until now the most infamous occurrence was the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse involving Army soldiers, which came to light in April 2004 and which President Bush said Thursday he considered to be the worst U.S. mistake of the entire war.

The defense official discussed the matter Friday only on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk publicly about the investigation. He said the evidence found thus far strongly indicated the killings in the insurgent-plagued city of Haditha in the western province of Anbar were unjustified. He cautioned that the probe was not finished.

Once the investigation is completed, perhaps in June, it will be up to a senior Marine commander in Iraq to decide whether to press charges of murder or other violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Three officers from the unit involved — 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, based at Camp Pendleton, Calif. — have been relieved of duty, although officials have not explicitly linked them to the criminal investigation.

In an indication of how concerned the Marines are about the implications of the Haditha case, their top officer, Gen. Michael W. Hagee, flew to Iraq on Thursday. He was to reinforce what the military said was a need to adhere to Marine values and standards of behavior and to avoid the use of excess force.

"Many of our Marines have been involved in life or death combat or have witnessed the loss of their fellow Marines, and the effects of these events can be numbing," Hagee said a statement announcing his trip. "There is the risk of becoming indifferent to the loss of a human life, as well as bringing dishonor upon ourselves."

A spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters in the Pentagon, Lt. Col. Scott Fazekas, declined to comment on the status of the Haditha investigation. He said no information would be provided until the probe was completed.

According to a congressional aide, lawmakers were told in a briefing Thursday that it appears as many as two dozen civilians were killed in the episode at Haditha. And they were told that the investigation will find that "it will be clear that this was not the result of an accident or a normal combat situation."

Another congressional official said lawmakers were told it would be about 30 days before a report would be issued by the investigating agency, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

Both the House and Senate armed services committees plan to hold hearings on the matter.

The New York Times reported on Friday that the civilians killed at Haditha included five men who had been traveling in a taxi and others in two nearby houses. The newspaper quoted an unidentified official as saying it was a sustained operation over as long as five hours.

Hagee met with top lawmakers from those panels this week to bring them up to date on the investigation.

"I can say that there are established facts that incidents of a very serious nature did take place," Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record), chairman of the Senate panel, said Thursday. He would not provide details or confirm reports that about 24 civilians were killed. He told reporters he had "no basis to believe" the military engaged in a cover-up.

Separately, the Marines announced this week that a criminal investigation was under way in connection with an alleged killing on April 26 of an Iraqi civilian by Marines in Hamandiyah, west of Baghdad. No details about that case have been made public.

In the Haditha case, videotape aired by an Arab television station showed images purportedly taken in the aftermath of the encounter: a bloody bedroom floor, walls with bullet holes and bodies of women and children. An Iraqi human rights group called for an investigation of what it described as a deadly mistake that had harmed civilians.

On May 17, Rep. John Murtha (news, bio, voting record), D-Pa., a former Marine, said Corps officials told him the toll in the Haditha attack was far worse than originally reported and that U.S. troops killed innocent women and children "in cold blood." He said that nearly twice as many people were killed as first reported and maintained that U.S. forces were "overstretched and overstressed" by the war in Iraq.

Pentagon spokesman Eric Ruff said Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was being kept apprised. Ruff said he did not expect any announcements in the next few days.

[spdirty]

****ing dirtbags (the reporters).

I don't know how we will ever win a war again. If we had these kinds of rules for our brave men fighting in WWII, I can guarunte that we wouldve lost. Its just sad. And Im thinking Id like to donate to their legal defense fund. Yeah, thats what Im gonna do. These men deserve a damn good lawyer. Make this end like the Lt. Pantano bs case. Hell President Bush doesn't give a damn. He could stop this craziness right now.

[Spider]

****ing dirtbags (the reporters).

I don't know how we will ever win a war again. If we had these kinds of rules for our brave men fighting in WWII, I can guarunte that we wouldve lost. Its just sad. And Im thinking Id like to donate to their legal defense fund. Yeah, thats what Im gonna do. These men deserve a damn good lawyer. Make this end like the Lt. Pantano bs case. Hell President Bush doesn't give a damn. He could stop this craziness right now.
Naw not even close , I know it is a feel good thing right now to blame rules , but WW2 we had an enemy that wore an uniform ,and we had rules back then also ...... Nam would be close to what Iraq is right now , this isnt a war , oh our Idiot in charge calls it a war , but this isnt , this is using the military as extreme force police dept .......... It is clear we wasnt trained to do this in nam , we aqre not trained to do this in Iraq ...........
2 key elements we are dealing with here ........
1. We didnt have a clue how Viet nam people thought or lived thier lives , same in Iraq , all they see is this powerfull military comming in to their country and telling them what side the bread is buttered on ...... Whats the biggest fear of men ? the unknownen always has been always will be , Iraqis are not grasping change like we had hoped ...........
2. Our Military its self ......... Big , Bad , Mean , unstopable ...... just the oppisit of what we need for a police action , and this so called war on terror is nothing more then a police action ..............
WW2 was an entire different ball game , that was a war ...........

[spdirty]

Naw not even close , I know it is a feel good thing right now to blame rules , but WW2 we had an enemy that wore an uniform ,and we had rules back then also ...... Nam would be close to what Iraq is right now , this isnt a war , oh our Idiot in charge calls it a war , but this isnt , this is using the military as extreme force police dept .......... It is clear we wasnt trained to do this in nam , we aqre not trained to do this in Iraq ...........
2 key elements we are dealing with here ........
1. We didnt have a clue how Viet nam people thought or lived thier lives , same in Iraq , all they see is this powerfull military comming in to their country and telling them what side the bread is buttered on ...... Whats the biggest fear of men ? the unknownen always has been always will be , Iraqis are not grasping change like we had hoped ...........
2. Our Military its self ......... Big , Bad , Mean , unstopable ...... just the oppisit of what we need for a police action , and this so called war on terror is nothing more then a police action ..............
WW2 was an entire different ball game , that was a war ...........


So you think these marines should be burned or not?

I have a good buddy who was in the marines, he's out now, but when he was in Iraq, the day before the elections a couple years ago, he says he took out a city block and mightve whiped out up to 50 people, including innocent women and children. Oh, they fired on him first. Should he be burned too?

[Spider]

So you think these marines should be burned or not?

I have a good buddy who was in the marines, he's out now, but when he was in Iraq, the day before the elections a couple years ago, he says he took out a city block and mightve whiped out up to 50 people, including innocent women and children. Should he be burned too?
I dont know ..........as for your buddy , if he did what he claims , that is somthing he will have to live with for the rest of his life , he knows , or he will know as he gets older if he did the right thing or not ........ See spdirty , you want to combine 2 different events , and put the same rules , same senario , cant do that , you know this ................

[gunns]

I think you hit it Spider when you posted that we were not ready for this war. Several things contributed, the "no aftermath plan" and not truly knowing our enemy before going in. I do not condone what these soldiers did but I'm not over there in their shoes experiencing what they go through.

I remember the multiple tragedies like this in Nam, primarily Lt. Calley. Luckily I'm from a military family so they could let me know not to judge these soldiers because you don't know what they've experienced or how at times they don't know who the enemy is, and at times they are all the enemy. My problem with this whole thing is who gets blamed in the end......the soldier. They've been trained for combat but this is a combat they were not trained for. We're still training for combat like in WWII (and it happened then too) but the enemy has evolved and doesn't follow the "rules". Rules of war, what a joke.

[Spider]

this dont look good ...........http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-marines27may27,0,7543928.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Photos Indicate Civilians Slain Execution-Style
An official involved in an investigation of Camp Pendleton Marines' actions in an Iraqi town cites `a total breakdown in morality.'
By Tony Perry and Julian E. Barnes, Times Staff Writers
May 27, 2006

WASHINGTON — Photographs taken by a Marine intelligence team have convinced investigators that a Marine unit killed as many as 24 unarmed Iraqis, some of them "execution-style," in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha after a roadside bomb killed an American in November, officials close to the investigation said Friday.

The pictures are said to show wounds to the upper bodies of the victims, who included several women and six children. Some were shot in the head and some in the back, congressional and defense officials said.

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One government official said the pictures showed that infantry Marines from Camp Pendleton "suffered a total breakdown in morality and leadership, with tragic results."

The case may be the most serious incident of alleged war crimes in Iraq by U.S. troops. Marine officers have long been worried that Iraq's deadly insurgency could prompt such a reaction by combat teams.

An investigation by an Army general into the Nov. 19 incident is to be delivered soon to the top operational commander in Iraq. A separate criminal investigation is also underway and could lead to charges ranging from dereliction of duty to murder.

Both investigations are centered on a dozen Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division. The battalion was on its third deployment to Iraq when the killings occurred.

Most of the fatal shots appear to have been fired by only a few of the Marines, possibly a four-man "fire team" led by a sergeant, said officials with knowledge of the investigation, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The same sergeant is suspected of filing a false report downplaying the number of Iraqis killed, saying they were killed by an insurgent's bomb and that Marines entered the Iraqis' homes in search of gunmen firing at them. All aspects of his account are contradicted by pictures, statements by Marines to investigators and an inspection of the houses involved, officials said.

Other Marines may face criminal charges for failing to stop the killings or for failing to make accurate reports.

Of the dead Iraqis, 19 were in three to four houses that Marines stormed, officials said. Five others were killed near a vehicle.

The intelligence team took the pictures shortly after the shooting stopped. Such teams are typically assigned to collect information on insurgents after firefights or other military engagements.

Investigators and top officers of the Camp Pendleton-based 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, which oversees Marine infantry, aviation and support units in Iraq, have viewed the pictures.

The incident began when a roadside bomb attached to a large propane canister exploded as Marines passed through Haditha, a town on the Euphrates River. Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, who was driving a Humvee, was killed and two other Marines were wounded.

Marines quickly determined that the bomb was a "line-of-sight" explosive that would have required someone to detonate it. Marines and Iraqi forces searched houses and other structures in the narrow, dusty streets. Jets dropped 500-pound bombs and a drone aircraft circled overhead.

Time magazine, in a report published in March, quoted witnesses, including a 9-year-old girl, Eman Waleed, who said that she saw Marines kill her grandparents and that other adults in the house died shielding her and her 8-year-old brother, Abdul Rahman.

An elder in Haditha later went to Marine officials at the battalion's headquarters to complain of wanton killings.

The Marines involved in the incident initially reported that they had become embroiled in a firefight with insurgents after the explosion. However, evidence that later emerged contradicted that version.

"There wasn't a gunfight, there were no pockmarked walls," a congressional aide said.

"The wounds indicated execution-style" shootings, said a Defense Department official who had been briefed on the contents of the photos.

The Marine Corps backed off its initial explanation, and the investigations were launched after Time published its account.

[Play2win]

I just watch the movie "Rules of Engagement" from Netflix. Samuel L. Jackson and Tommy Lee Jones. About almost this extact same thing. Except its in Yemen. Pretty Poignant because of the timing.

It is a good movie (not absolutely great) and definitely worth watching...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Photos Indicate Civilians Slain Execution-Style

And you think they should get a pass, spdirty?

Please tell me you're just kidding.

We're supposed to be the good guys.

[ant1999e]

If these guys broke the rules, they should be held accountable for their actions.

[W*GS]

Naw not even close , I know it is a feel good thing right now to blame rules , but WW2 we had an enemy that wore an uniform ,and we had rules back then also ......

Such as?

[Spider]

Such as?
.......... Just a shot in the dark here ....... but um you dont shoot women and Children execution style ........not realy hard to figure out .... oh wait , you are a Libertarian one week , Republican the next , no wonder you didnt have a clue ....

[W*GS]

What justifies the carpet-bombing tactics of the Allies during WWII, Spider?

[Spider]

What justifies the carpet-bombing tactics of the Allies during WWII, Spider?
Kamakazis , and Japan not wanting to surrender .........but Carpet bombing is a different deal then looking someone in the eyes as you shoot em .......

[W*GS]

Spider, you do realize that Dresden isn't in Japan, don't you?

Besides, what difference does it make to the innocent victims if they see their killer's face, or only hear the distant sound of an airplane, before they die?

[Spider]

Spider, you do realize that Dresden isn't in Japan, don't you? gee you mean saxony isnt Japaneese ? whod a thunk it

Besides, what difference does it make to the innocent victims if they see their killer's face, or only hear the distant sound of an airplane, before they die?
Makes alot of difference , if you ever have anyone in the cross hairs you will know the difference in a heartbeat

[W*GS]

Spider, you're a monument to the quality of the education system.

Anyway, is a fleet of 1,000 planes indiscriminately killing untold thousands of children really that different from an infantryman shooting a single innocent woman in the back?

How so?

PS - Nuremburg proved that "I was just following orders" isn't enough.

[Spider]

Spider, you're a monument to the quality of the education system. you just aint saying that cause you cameout of the closet are you ?

Anyway, is a fleet of 1,000 planes indiscriminately killing untold thousands of children really that different from an infantryman shooting a single innocent woman in the back?

How so?
alot , they could have taken shelter , left town etc ........ But then you dont see a difference in a republican and a libertarian , so I dont expect you to understand this ..........

[W*GS]

Generally, those most fearful of homosexuality have significant issues about their own sexuality.

As for your other "point", I'm just about speechless in trying to understand your argument.

You rationalize the deaths of innocents with the same relish as Osama Bin Laden.

[Spider]

Generally, those most fearful of homosexuality have significant issues about their own sexuality. Dr W*GS = the new Dr Phill with a Ward Churchill touch .........

As for your other "point", I'm just about speechless in trying to understand your argument. of course you dont understand .....a gay republican trpped in a Libertarian mind.....gotta be rough on ya

You rationalize the deaths of innocents with the same relish as Osama Bin Laden.
innocent of what W*GS ? what are they innocent of ?are they like Jesus and never did anything wrong ?

[W*GS]

(Hint: When Spider starts calling me "Ward", we all know he's lost the argument)

Explain to me what a newborn, or a small child, is guilty of that justifies their death.

Original Sin?

[Spider]

(Hint: When Spider starts calling me "Ward", we all know he's lost the argument) LOL naw , you just argue like ward Churchill , and you both are in the ivory league of Boulder colo........

Explain to me what a newborn, or a small child, is guilty of that justifies their death.

Original Sin?
seeing how the parents were sinners , cant have an omlett without breaking a few eggs ........... you queers are a touchy lot ....

[W*GS]

Thanks for the laugh, Spider.

You're more entertaining than almost all the comedies on TV these days.

I can almost envision us having this discussion face-to-face. It would most likely end with you, brain in a firestorm of confusion and ignorance, trying to gimme a shot to the jaw.

Most amusing.

[Spider]

Thanks for the laugh, Spider.

You're more entertaining than almost all the comedies on TV these days.

I can almost envision us having this discussion face-to-face. It would most likely end with you, brain in a firestorm of confusion and ignorance, trying to gimme a shot to the jaw.

Most amusing.
trying to get in touch with your feminine side I see

[W*GS]

Spider's got no "feminine side" at'all. He's a manly man - indeed, the most manly man of all time!

[Spider]

Spider's got no "feminine side" at'all. He's a manly man - indeed, the most manly man of all time!
your point is ?

[W*GS]

You're funny and worth quite a few laughs, Spider.

[Spider]

You're funny and worth quite a few laughs, Spider.
is that a gay code ?

[W*GS]

It's code for "My amusement at your expense".

[Spider]

It's code for "My amusement at your expense".
I am starting to see why you hate LABF so much . he jilted you didnt he ?

[gunns]

.......... Just a shot in the dark here ....... but um you dont shoot women and Children execution style ........not realy hard to figure out .... oh wait , you are a Libertarian one week , Republican the next , no wonder you didnt have a clue ....

Well I don't know about Iraq but in Vietnam the women and children were as dangerous as any North Vietnamese soldier....or South Vietnamese citizen.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

.......... Just a shot in the dark here ....... but um you dont shoot women and Children execution style ........not realy hard to figure out .... oh wait , you are a Libertarian one week , Republican the next , no wonder you didnt have a clue ....

See, this is where it pays to be a moral retard like W*GS.

No conscience required.

Wasting innocent civilians execution style in Iraq is OK today because the allies carpet bombed cities 60 years ago during WWII.

Sounds perfectly logical, doesn't it? :oyvey:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Spider, you're a monument to the quality of the education system.

And you're living proof that a person can have an education and still be a dumbass.

[BroncoBuff]

It's spelled ...

Q - U - A - G - M - I - R - E

[W*GS]

As usual, my argument goes right over LABF.

I'll leave the details of proving his errors as an exercise to the reader.

I'll get you started by pointing out that LABF's "W*GS thinks execution-style killings are OK" is a false statement.

[Spider]

As usual, my argument goes right over LABF.

I'll leave the details of proving his errors as an exercise to the reader.

I'll get you started by pointing out that LABF's "W*GS thinks execution-style killings are OK" is a false statement.
:rofl: as if you have room to talk..........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

As usual, my argument goes right over LABF.

I'll leave the details of proving his errors as an exercise to the reader.

I'll get you started by pointing out that LABF's "W*GS thinks execution-style killings are OK" is a false statement.

Why do you waste your time denying things that are as plain as day to anyone who can read?

You jacked this thread and steered the discussion to WWII carpet bombing in an attempt to rationalize and minimize the execution-style slaying of civilians in Iraq.

Rationalization + minimization = justification.

You know - your usual tactic when covering up for BushCo.

"Move along folks, nothing to see here. After all, so-and-so did such-and-such way back when, so you have no reason to criticize the present administration."

Most third-grade children have a more highly developed sense of morality than you.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Kids Executed by Marines

Investigator cites 'a total breakdown in morality'

Photographs taken by a Marine intelligence team have convinced investigators that a Marine unit killed as many as 24 unarmed Iraqis, some of them "execution-style," in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha after a roadside bomb killed an American in November, officials close to the investigation said Friday.

The pictures are said to show wounds to the upper bodies of the victims, who included several women and six children. Some were shot in the head and some in the back, congressional and defense officials said.

Time magazine quoted witnesses, including a 9-year-old girl, who said that she saw Marines kill her grandparents and that other adults in the house died shielding her and her 8-year-old brother.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-marines27may27,0,7543928.story?track=tottext

http://www.bartcop.com/bring-mistake.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/123-fighting-for.gif

[W*GS]

LABF, I'll make my own arguments, thanks. Anyone who relies on your interpretations (of just about anything) is a fool.

If you'd care to read what was written, instead of attempting to smear me with your lies, you'd make an ass of yourself much much less often.

Show me where I said that executing innocents was acceptable. It should be easy for you.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/060525/schorr.gif

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Iraq's My Lai

A group of enraged Marines entered homes in Haditha and murdered their occupants, including children, in cold blood. And it's not an isolated incident.

Last month, the details of a horrific atrocity emerged from Haditha, a town in Anbar province -- known as a hotbed of the Iraqi resistance.

In November, a roadside bomb killed Marine Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, a 20-year-old Texan, on a road not far from Haditha. According to Time magazine, "The next day a Marine communiqu from Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi reported that Terrazas and 15 Iraqi civilians were killed by the blast and that 'gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire,' prompting the Marines to return fire, killing eight insurgents." Another military official later said the military command in Baghdad "knew of no civilian deaths in the engagement."

Marine officials have now confirmed that those accounts were false. What really happened, according to reports confirmed by the Pentagon, was this: A group of enraged Marines entered several homes in Haditha and murdered their occupants, including children, in cold blood. A video of the aftermath -- showing that the residents were unarmed when they were shot at point-blank range -- was obtained by Time.

Continued: http://alternet.org/waroniraq/36752/

[SPfloppy]

LABF dude I will give you the benifiet of the doubt here before I wiegh in. Do you now or have you serve(d) in Iraq?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/ddavig/classpicture.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

LABF dude I will give you the benifiet(sic) of the doubt here before I wiegh(sic) in. Do you now or have you serve(d) in Iraq?

I'm a Vietnam-era veteran.

But what bearing could that possibly have on the topic at hand?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you're not going to try to justify execution-style slayings of innocent civilians (including women and children) by U.S. Marines.

[SPfloppy]

For the rest of us here let me now weigh in. War, violence, bombing guided or IED is all a horrible way of continuing the political process by other means. Now that said you do not win wars by planting flowers. You do it by planting corpses. Never will any fighting force be able to incur an acceptable number of colateral civilian casualties and never will the memory of those dead be forgotten by the soldier who did it. What will in the end help him sleep is to know that whatever he did whether it was dropping bombs from a far or the up close personal look at the other guy's eyes as e goes to sleep is that you and your cause was just and you won. You lived, they died. They want so badly to go to paradise and to see Alla? Well US Marines will gladly help to speed them along and by doing so they make sure that that day thier fallen are avenged and they and thier brothers are safe for one more day and that day at it's end is one more day closer to getting the hell out of Iraq for this tour. Getting home to family who may not want the war but love you no less for fighting it. Meanwhile people who have never seen a rifle no been anywhere less secure that a subway stop after 11pm much less southwest asia and the press call to account what you did and ask why this? why that? Why are we here? When will we leave? We could be gone from there in two years if the politicians let us fight it right and stop letting there be a free press in an occupied province.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/ddavig/College.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

For the rest of us here let me now weigh in. War, violence, bombing guided or IED is all a horrible way of continuing the political process by other means. Now that said you do not win wars by planting flowers. You do it by planting corpses. Never will any fighting force be able to incur an acceptable number of colateral civilian casualties and never will the memory of those dead be forgotten by the soldier who did it. What will in the end help him sleep is to know that whatever he did whether it was dropping bombs from a far or the up close personal look at the other guy's eyes as e goes to sleep is that you and your cause was just and you won. You lived, they died. They want so badly to go to paradise and to see Alla? Well US Marines will gladly help to speed them along and by doing so they make sure that that day thier fallen are avenged and they and thier brothers are safe for one more day and that day at it's end is one more day closer to getting the hell out of Iraq for this tour. Getting home to family who may not want the war but love you no less for fighting it. Meanwhile people who have never seen a rifle no been anywhere less secure that a subway stop after 11pm much less southwest asia and the press call to account what you did and ask why this? why that? Why are we here? When will we leave? We could be gone from there in two years if the politicians let us fight it right and stop letting there be a free press in an occupied province.


So, are execution-style slayings of civilians (including women and children) by U.S. Marines OK, or are they not?

Remember - we're not talking about collateral damage here - we're talking about deliberate executions of civilians.

[SPfloppy]

I never justify murder. This is warzone though. We forgett that sometimes over here where we are safe and sound. We cannot protect everyone and everything while trying to destroy a hostile force who moves and blends witha populace. Would we rather have this in Idaho or Texas? The men will judge themeselves harder than any magistrate ever could. If at the end of your days you are sated with your justification for all your lies, your misdeeds, your geed deeds and your moments of kindness than you are pardoned of all sins. These men if guilty of wrong doing will pay, but we need not say what thier punishments should be.

[Spider]

For the rest of us here let me now weigh in. War, violence, bombing guided or IED is all a horrible way of continuing the political process by other means. Now that said you do not win wars by planting flowers. You do it by planting corpses. Never will any fighting force be able to incur an acceptable number of colateral civilian casualties and never will the memory of those dead be forgotten by the soldier who did it. What will in the end help him sleep is to know that whatever he did whether it was dropping bombs from a far or the up close personal look at the other guy's eyes as e goes to sleep is that you and your cause was just and you won. You lived, they died. They want so badly to go to paradise and to see Alla? Well US Marines will gladly help to speed them along and by doing so they make sure that that day thier fallen are avenged and they and thier brothers are safe for one more day and that day at it's end is one more day closer to getting the hell out of Iraq for this tour. Getting home to family who may not want the war but love you no less for fighting it. Meanwhile people who have never seen a rifle no been anywhere less secure that a subway stop after 11pm much less southwest asia and the press call to account what you did and ask why this? why that? Why are we here? When will we leave? We could be gone from there in two years if the politicians let us fight it right and stop letting there be a free press in an occupied province.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/ddavig/College.jpg

women and children are included I guess .......... I think you are off track here , Killing the insurgence , terrorist and fighting this police action , is 1 thing ........ Shooting women and Children , well thats another matter , what I tried to get W*GS to understand is , it is one thing to drop bombs , it is another to stare your victim down and pull the trigger , but you are in a war zone I dont have to tel you that ...... Nor should shooting women and children be concidered part of winning this war ......... and no I didnt serve , I wanted to but had a serious criminal charge , that wouldnt alllow me to go in ..... The Charge was attempted murder ( not as bad as it sounds though )

[Spider]

I never justify murder. This is warzone though. We forgett that sometimes over here where we are safe and sound. We cannot protect everyone and everything while trying to destroy a hostile force who moves and blends witha populace. Would we rather have this in Idaho or Texas? The men will judge themeselves harder than any magistrate ever could. If at the end of your days you are sated with your justification for all your lies, your misdeeds, your geed deeds and your moments of kindness than you are pardoned of all sins. These men if guilty of wrong doing will pay, but we need not say what thier punishments should be.
everyone dies a little bit inside during war .............. all the more reason I realy hate Bush ........... war is bad , sometimes a need , but a foolish war gets nothing done but destroying innocence .......... I am not a turn the other cheeck kind of guy , and sometimes I believe on the do onto others before they do on to you, but Iraq is wrong ...........

[DBruleU]

I'm a Vietnam-era veteran.

But what bearing could that possibly have on the topic at hand?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you're not going to try to justify execution-style slayings of innocent civilians (including women and children) by U.S. Marines.

I'm still a bit curious as to what you actually did?

A Vietnam-era Vet? Where and in what did you actually serve?

I'm pretty sure if you were a full-blown vet, say like Kerry, you would be posting that in most your threads to once again, try and put you on a level above us. For someone who who loves to build themselves up, you sure have never been quite clear on where you served, or what you did.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm pretty sure if you were a full-blown vet, say like Kerry, you would be posting that in most your threads to once again, try and put you on a level above us.

Shows how little you know about veterans.

Not all of us are running for public office.

For someone who who loves to build themselves up...

Exposing your lies and BS isn't "building myself up" - it's just exposing your lies and BS.

If it seems like I'm somehow rising in stature it's just because you and your phony "war president" are sinking more and more everyday.


...you sure have never been quite clear on where you served, or what you did.

Now why in the hell would I want to share something like this with someone like you?

[spdirty]

Now why in the hell would I want to share something like this with someone like you?

Because he asked.

[DBruleU]

Shows how little you know about veterans.

Not all of us are running for public office.



Exposing your lies and BS isn't "building myself up" - it's just exposing your lies and BS.

If it seems like I'm somehow rising in stature it's just because you and your phony "war president" are sinking more and more everyday.



Now why in the hell would I want to share something like this with someone like you?


Riiight.

Dodge...duck...dodge...

Could just asnwer a simple question.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Riiight.

Dodge...duck...dodge...

Could just asnwer a simple question.

I repeat: Why the hell would I want to provide you with such personal info?

[spdirty]

I repeat: Why the hell would I want to provide you with such personal info?


If you don't want to indulge us, then please, dont even mention it. God, I hate that, when someone gives you 1/5 of their lil "story" or "background" then won't give the rest of the details when asked. LABF, what in the hell will it hurt if you just tell us? Its bs, don't sit there and say that you are a vietnam era vet then not go further into what you did or didn't do. Its retarded.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If you don't want to indulge us, then please, dont even mention it. God, I hate that, when someone gives you 1/5 of their lil "story" or "background" then won't give the rest of the details when asked. LABF, what in the hell will it hurt if you just tell us? Its bs, don't sit there and say that you are a vietnam era vet then not go further into what you did or didn't do. Its retarded.

Are you like this in real life?

When someone mentions he's a veteran do you demand that he give you all the details and then have a tantrum when he declines?

You must get yourself in a lot of hot water.

[spdirty]

Are you like this in real life?
yes

When someone mentions he's a veteran do you demand that he give you all the details and then have a tantrum when he declines?
Actually, whenever Ive asked someone about their experiences i always get a straight answer. When I talk to war vets, well, depends on how well I know them.

You must get yourself in a lot of hot water.

Nope, never have. I was just curious as to where you have gone when you were in. Indulge us. Ill answer any questions you would want to ask about my service any time you want, on the open board. I dont give a ****. Man, not trying to be combative here, just trying to have a conversation. You dont have to get all uppity and defensive about it. If you dont want to talk about it, just say so.

[DBruleU]

yes

Actually, whenever Ive asked someone about their experiences i always get a straight answer. When I talk to war vets, well, depends on how well I know them.



Nope, never have. I was just curious as to where you have gone when you were in. Indulge us. Ill answer any questions you would want to ask about my service any time you want, on the open board. I dont give a ****. Man, not trying to be combative here, just trying to have a conversation. You dont have to get all uppity and defensive about it. If you dont want to talk about it, just say so.

Agreed. I havent met one Vet from any war not willing to share their story. I'm sorry, but I call BS on this one LABF. Most like everything else you post.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

depends on how well I know them.

Exactly.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm sorry, but I call BS on this one LABF. Most like everything else you post.

As always, you have things bass-ackwards.

Most of what I've posted here over the past few years has turned out to be true.

On the other hand, most of what you have posted here has turned out to be bullsh*t.

As for my military service, I could probably scan my DD-214 and post it here right now and you would claim it was fake, or that I didn't really earn my citations. (John Kerry, anyone?)

I would no more trust you with such info than I can piss in a straight line.

[DBruleU]

Exactly.

Everyone knows you here.

Excuses are very convenient right now.

[DBruleU]

As always, you have things bass-ackwards.

Most of what I've posted here over the past few years has turned out to be true.

On the other hand, most of what you have posted here has turned out to be bullsh*t.

As for my military service, I could probably scan my DD-214 and post it here right now and you would claim it was fake, or that I didn't really earn my citations. (John Kerry, anyone?)

I would no more trust you with such info than I can piss in a straight line.

I dont need your form. Just share with us what you served in, and what you did, how long, ect.

Sounds fair enough.

[spdirty]

I dont need your form. Just share with us what you served in, and what you did, how long, ect.

Sounds fair enough.


Ill start. Did 16 months doing LE in Columbus Mississippi. The work was great, but it was in, well, Mississippi. Then I did a year in Osan S. Korea. Floppy could tell you about that crazy ass year. Then i did a year in Vegas. It was OK, but I missed Korea. If you want more details Ill share.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Everyone knows you here.

???

This is the Internet, dude - not real life.


I dont need your form. Just share with us what you served in, and what you did, how long, ect.

Sounds fair enough.

I already disclosed all of the above once before on some thread someone here started about veterans.

In retrospect, this was a mistake inasmuch as the reich-wing idiots on this board who have never served are quick to "swift boat" anyone who opposes Bush's policies.

[DBruleU]

???

This is the Internet, dude - not real life.




I already disclosed all of the above once before on some thread someone here started about veterans.

In retrospect, this was a mistake inasmuch as the reich-wing idiots on this board who have never served are quick to "swift boat" anyone who opposes Bush's policies.

Well then you wouldnt mind sharing again just like Spdirty did above you.

Honestly, what's the big deal? Is it really that hard to share what in the world you did, where you did it, time doing it. ect?

I have never met a vet who is so defensive as you.

[bendog]

Spider, you're a monument to the quality of the education system.

Anyway, is a fleet of 1,000 planes indiscriminately killing untold thousands of children really that different from an infantryman shooting a single innocent woman in the back?

How so?

PS - Nuremburg proved that "I was just following orders" isn't enough.
Your analogy is illogical. First with Dresden, the issue was how to destroy the Nazi's warmaking capacity. There was a military purpose. IMO, it didn't work, but the Brits wanted to destroy an industrial city, and they could only fly at night. The US bombed Dresden by day, but supposedly targeted specific factories. My uncle bombed Italy via a P-40 in WWII. No doubt he hit civilians too, but he wasn't aiming at them.

The US did firebomb Japan. However, unlike Dresden where teh Brits tried to "dissuade" the civilians from working, in Japan the US first tried "precision bombing," but the winds were such that it didn't work. Then, they fire bombed but not so much to kill people as much as the cities just burned really easy, and that destroyed industrial capacity.

If the Marines did indeed line up and shoot civilians ... that's a crime. I feel sorry for the Marines, because they have been misused as "policeman," when they are trained to be assault and destroy types, but not only may they have murdered people, but if they did, al queda and Iran will win in Iraq. But, they were gonna win anyway, most likely.

[W*GS]

The standard rationalizations for city-killing, in other words.

[bendog]

Who said the only thing worse than winning a war is losing one?

Wars are a failure of two or more societies to understand what each has to have to survive, and what each are willing to die for. Iraq being an example of bushii refusing to ever tell Iraq what the US was willing to die for, and the media and pols refusing to make Bushii tell. Essentially, bushii invaded because no adult told him he was not allowed to.

Soldiers have to do the best with what they have. In Gulf War I, civilian casualties were minimized. As for fireboming Japan, that was the "best" way to destroy Japan's industrial capacity. To say we shouldn't have done so is to say we should have not tried to win a war the fastest way possible. That's absurd. Same with the Atom Bombs. What were the expected casulty numbers for invading Japan? On both sides. Millions.

But lining up people and shooting them .... It's never right. I wouldn't second guess a soldier if he's looking for an IED, and he's got two insurgents right there, so he shoots one and tells the other one to tell him where the IED is or he's next. It's not right, but I might do it. As for the marines, it looks pretty bad.

[Rohirrim]

Who said the only thing worse than winning a war is losing one?

Wars are a failure of two or more societies to understand what each has to have to survive, and what each are willing to die for. Iraq being an example of bushii refusing to ever tell Iraq what the US was willing to die for, and the media and pols refusing to make Bushii tell. Essentially, bushii invaded because no adult told him he was not allowed to.

Soldiers have to do the best with what they have. In Gulf War I, civilian casualties were minimized. As for fireboming Japan, that was the "best" way to destroy Japan's industrial capacity. To say we shouldn't have done so is to say we should have not tried to win a war the fastest way possible. That's absurd. Same with the Atom Bombs. What were the expected casulty numbers for invading Japan? On both sides. Millions.

But lining up people and shooting them .... It's never right. I wouldn't second guess a soldier if he's looking for an IED, and he's got two insurgents right there, so he shoots one and tells the other one to tell him where the IED is or he's next. It's not right, but I might do it. As for the marines, it looks pretty bad.

You obviously have not been reading the Japanese press. It appears that now, in hindsight, Japan was actually a heroic victim of American imperialism during WWII.