Religious liberals gain new visibility

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Religious liberals say their faith compels them to emphasize such issues as poverty, affordable health care and global warming. Disillusionment with the war in Iraq and opposition to Bush administration policies on secret prisons and torture have also fueled the movement.

"The wind is changing. Folks -- not just leaders -- are fed up with what is being portrayed as Christian values," said the Rev. Tim Ahrens, senior minister of First Congregational Church of Columbus, Ohio.

"As religious people we're offended by the idea that if you're not with the religious right, you're not moral, you're not religious," said Linda Gustitus, who attends Bethesda's River Road Unitarian Church and is a founder of the new Washington Region Religious Campaign Against Torture. "I mean there's a whole universe out there different from the religious right. . . . People closer to the middle of the political spectrum who are religious want their voices heard."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12879318/

[spdirty]

Must be Jehovas Witnesses.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Must be Jehovas Witnesses.

???

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Must be Jehovas Witnesses.
Why is that?

[enjolras]

My church (Unitarian) is included in this article.. I'm hardly a Jehovas witness.

[DBruleU]

Considering 5 of my family members attend a Unitarian Church, and are as liberal as can be, I'm not surprised.

I'm not going to bash Unitarian's, but it's just not my way of worship.

[epicSocialism4tw]

To vote Democrat in most places, you have to turn a blind eye to important social issues. The most glaring one being the use of tax money to promote secular humanism in public. Then you have abortion, welfare, gay marriage, the sex-for-everyone-with-no-consequences culture, the pervasion of sexual perversion on television, the intolerant liberal legal agenda, etc, etc.

The liberal social agenda is quite the opposite of a committed Christian. If a believer votes, he has to pick and choose the evils that he ignores and some of these are too glaring to ignore. Especially in light of the increasingly malicious opposition to Christian social concerns.

[TailgateNut]

To vote Democrat in most places, you have to turn a blind eye to important social issues. The most glaring one being the use of tax money to promote secular humanism in public. Then you have abortion, welfare, gay marriage, the sex-for-everyone-with-no-consequences culture, the pervasion of sexual perversion on television, the intolerant liberal legal agenda, etc, etc.

The liberal social agenda is quite the opposite of a committed Christian. If a believer votes, he has to pick and choose the evils that he ignores and some of these are too glaring to ignore. Especially in light of the increasingly malicious opposition to Christian social concerns.

If it's so confusing, STOP VOTING!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

To vote Democrat in most places, you have to turn a blind eye to important social issues. The most glaring one being the use of tax money to promote secular humanism in public. Then you have abortion, welfare, gay marriage, the sex-for-everyone-with-no-consequences culture, the pervasion of sexual perversion on television, the intolerant liberal legal agenda, etc, etc.

The liberal social agenda is quite the opposite of a committed Christian. If a believer votes, he has to pick and choose the evils that he ignores and some of these are too glaring to ignore. Especially in light of the increasingly malicious opposition to Christian social concerns.
To vote religious right (republican) you have to turn a blind eye to corporate corruption, depositing fecal matter on the Constitution, bigotry, racism, crime and radical religious agendas.

[TailgateNut]

To vote religious right (republican) you have to turn a blind eye to corporate corruption, depositing fecal matter on the Constitution, bigotry, racism, crime and radical religious agendas.

Just pickin' the evils they can ignore!;D

[Smiling Assassin27]

To vote religious right (republican) you have to turn a blind eye to corporate corruption, depositing fecal matter on the Constitution, bigotry, racism, crime and radical religious agendas.

this is an ignorant statement. i know plenty of Evangelicals that are very aware of these and more. but, in their words, issues aren't to be arranged mathematically with issues having equal weight that you just tally up and vote accordingly. they look at it as a geometric order of issues in which the foundational issues are the most important because they hold up the others. for example, they consider life issues more important than campaign finance reform.

as for the religious left, they're prayed for just like everyone else...:peace:

[enjolras]

To vote Democrat in most places, you have to turn a blind eye to important social issues. The most glaring one being the use of tax money to promote secular humanism in public. Then you have abortion, welfare, gay marriage, the sex-for-everyone-with-no-consequences culture, the pervasion of sexual perversion on television, the intolerant liberal legal agenda, etc, etc.

I love this statement, its so full of hate (and I thought only the left hated America) and ideology as to be laughable.

Of course, the basic issue is not that liberals are evil but that they simply hold a view different from the singularist ideals of the right.

I love liberal bashing, it really does follow a script at this point.

The most glaring one being the use of tax money to promote secular humanism in public.

Its not so much humanism, but the reduction of religious influence. In finding a universal replacement for this, one inevitably looks to a humanist viewpoint. The idea that human worth should be what drives our government policy, not arbitrary religious ideals. There is nothing about humanism incompatible with Christian (or any religions) belief other than the mere fact that it is not narrowed by that tradition.

Beleiving in the worth of ALL human beings is hardly a bad thing in my mind.

Then you have abortion

Not going to really argue this, as I can guess your position. The only thing I would ask is that you acknowledge that there is a rational argument made on the democratic side that is not as simple as 'we like to kill babies'.

welfare

Again, I fail to see the evil in the Democrats stance. It was a Democratic president who led the largest overhaul of our welfare system in decades, after all. I certainly can't beleive anyone on the right has an issue with the fundamental ideals at play here. Namely that society has a responsibility to see to the life-needs of its most downtrodden members.

The issue here is one of resource usage.. and thats a debate applicable to almost every issue in American life. I happen to be quite conservative on this issue, I see investments in our infrastructure and innovation as being more central to creating an environment in which all members can excel, giving us the best chance to prevent the problem at its source. That doesn't mean, however, that I do not see (and appreciate) the liberal viewpoint here...and I think its an entirely valid one.

sex-for-everyone-with-no-consequences culture, the pervasion of sexual perversion on television

Of course this is so untrue its laughable. Liberals espouse a culture of sexual responsibility. A society in which sexual issues are talked about and aired freely, rather then the reppressive view of sex conservatives appreciate so much. Our country is so completely ignorant of our sexuality its criminal. To me freedom includes sexual freedom, and I fail to see why supporting sexual expression makes me blind to anything. I feel rather enlightened actually.

the intolerant liberal legal agenda

This isn't a statement of anything really... what exactly is the 'intolerant liberal agenda'? Its hyperbole and nothing more, conservative hubris at its very best.

[enjolras]

as for the religious left, they're prayed for just like everyone else...:peace:

Do me a favor, don't bother.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

this is an ignorant statement.
No shyte! (in response to the Mad Yak's hated filled tripe)

[enjolras]

Considering 5 of my family members attend a Unitarian Church, and are as liberal as can be, I'm not surprised.

I'm not going to bash Unitarian's, but it's just not my way of worship.

I appreciate that. I can certianly see how the Unitarian viewpoint (which does differ a bit from church to church btw) wouldn't work for some.

I do want to say, however, that when you look at the typical makeup of a Unitarian church (its quite a diverse place) that I have no doubt that it more accurately reflects a church Jesus would appreciate more than your typical hard-liner Baptist church.

[defenseman]

Too often one equates sweeping changes with a "party". My recommendation this time around is stay clear of what party one is affiliated with and vote for the candidate based on their own performance in the recent past. That'll be where the questions are answered and should weigh heavily on the vote placed. From where I sit, the "party" has little to do with anything anymore, both parties have ruined their good name on numerous occasions ..dman

[enjolras]

Too often one equates sweeping changes with a "party". My recommendation this time around is stay clear of what party one is affiliated with and vote for the candidate based on their own performance in the recent past. That'll be where the questions are answered and should weigh heavily on the vote placed. From where I sit, the "party" has little to do with anything anymore, both parties have ruined their good name on numerous occasions ..dman

That I completely agree with..

[BroncoInferno]

To vote religious right (republican) you have to turn a blind eye to corporate corruption, depositing fecal matter on the Constitution, bigotry, racism, crime and radical religious agendas.

You also have to support an individualistic, fundamentally self-centered economic viewpoint that is the antithesis of Christ's teachings. Angryllama's mention of welfare as something that goes against Christian beliefs is laughable...even if you think it is not an efficient system, the thought behind it is to help people who are destitute. How one could argue that this idea goes against Christ's teachings is astonishing.

[epicSocialism4tw]

You also have to support an individualistic, fundamentally self-centered economic viewpoint that is the antithesis of Christ's teachings. Angryllama's mention of welfare as something that goes against Christian beliefs is laughable...even if you think it is not an efficient system, the thought behind it is to help people who are destitute. How one could argue that this idea goes against Christ's teachings is astonishing.

The problem is not with supporting the poor, its with keeping them poor. I have worked with a nonprofit benevolence organization for about 8 years now, and I have seen efficient and successful upward mobility in action, and it did not depend on anything the government provided outside of tax breaks. Even tax breaks wouldnt keep the organization from succeeding. That place has proven its success and recieves private donations by concerned benevolent citizens for their maintinance.

Welfare soothes the symptom, but does not treat the disease. It helps to lock people into the vicious cycle and does nothing to improve their lives. I'm certain that the social ideal of people dependant on government sustinence to maintain their livelyhood is an evil one. Especially when you couple it with the mind control of the public school system and the national media...the influence of these institutions is not subtle. It becomes even worse when you consider the government-aided movement to clean up their mess by allowing abortions and providing tax dollars for them. Ugly, ugly stuff...and the result of secular humanist philosphy.

[bendog]

Great, Liberalism's back in. Just what we episcopals need, another reason to elect gay rights bishops. Marvelous.

[defenseman]

LOL at Bendog...dman

[Rohirrim]

Christ is now against welfare? I guess he did say, "The poor will always be with you." It's hard to keep it all straight, the world is changing so quickly these days. Let's see, Jesus is for the death penalty, for the war, and opposed to feeding the poor. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Christ is now against welfare? I guess he did say, "The poor will always be with you." It's hard to keep it all straight, the world is changing so quickly these days. Let's see, Jesus is for the death penalty, for the war, and opposed to feeding the poor. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
Seems to be the right wing rallying cry these days.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No shyte! (in response to the Mad Yak's hated filled tripe)

:D

I get a kick out of his use of the phrase "secular humanism" to categorize all incoming sense data that doesn't square with conservative/fundamentalist Xian dogma.

[Hogan11]

All I know is that if I vote Democratic........I face the possiblity of excommunication from the Church.

Not that that would ever stop me or anything.

[defenseman]

All I know is that if I vote Democratic........I face the possiblity of excommunication from the Church.

Not that that would ever stop me or anything.

No church or anyone else would tell me who to vote for, INCLUDING the political party I fall under presently...dman

[Hogan11]

No church or anyone else would tell me who to vote for, INCLUDING the political party I fall under presently...dman

I agree, but that's exactly what the Catholic Church tried to do in the last presidential election in some corners of the country. Certain "activist" Bishops deduced that if you supported Kerry, you also supported choice and thus should be not only denied Holy Communion but excomunicated. That was a bit surprising to me since not only was Kerry a Catholic himself, but abortion was far from the only plank in the DNC's platform. I was more than offended by that action and didn't blame anyone who left the Church to seek worship in other, less politically active, denominations.

[Spider]

Hilarious! some of the takes on this thread ......... goofy bastards

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.myjesuswasaliberal.com/images/top-home.jpg

English philosopher Edmund Burke: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” There’s that word “evil” again. It’s a strong word but I think it aptly describes an administration that misled the public to justify starting a war. Evil seems to be an appropriate description of politicians who support legislation designed to keep underprivileged children from being immunized. That’s not forgetful. That’s not foolish. That’s evil, plain and simple.

There are times I find it hard to believe that God has a plan for America as I watch the country I love doing such stupid, hateful things. How can anyone not be bothered by the deaths in Iraq, the lies, the enormous deficit, the systematic destruction of the environment, and steady erosions of our civil liberties? I guess that is where faith, hope, and love come into the picture. When Jesus was asked, “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law,” He replied, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22: 36-40. It always comes back to love.

And speaking of love, I want to repeat that liberals love America just as much as conservatives. In fact, I happen to think we love it more. It is because I love my country that I have a responsibility to speak out when we’re off course. Loving your country shouldn’t be confused with never questioning the government. That is not what our forefathers had in mind. I love my children but that doesn’t mean I’m never critical of their behavior. If anything I expect more from my children because I know they understand the difference between right and wrong. That makes me either a lousy parent or a father with high expectations. Have you ever been around children whose parents never correct them? I rest my case. People will rise or fall to the expectations we have for them. The same is true for governments. There are times liberals are critical of our government because we expect more from the world’s only superpower. If the new catchphrase for America is, “Well, China did it, too,” then we’re all in a lot of trouble.

Like millions of Americans, I think our government was wrong to go to war in Iraq and I wasn’t shy about voicing my dissent. Somehow my disagreement made me a “traitor” because that’s the way the conservatives tried to silence dissent. The Bush Administration wasn’t doing anything new when it questioned the patriotism of anyone who dared to disagree with the war.

“Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.” Herman Goering, Nazi Political Leader

My buddy John Q. Conservative thinks of this book as being “unpatriotic” just as Goering predicted. John Q. said, “Why don’t you liberals support the troops?” John Q., we do support the troops but a lot of us don’t support this war. It is possible to support the troops and still be critical of the decision to go to war. Why is that such a difficult thing to understand? Criticism of this administration based on moral and ethical convictions should not be confused with being unpatriotic. Some of us would like to exercise our freedom of speech while we still can. Conservatives like John Q. love the idea of freedom, but they hate it when people actually exercise it.

I know we don’t have to earn the right to dissent. That was guaranteed by our forefathers, but I’d like to point out that my family has paid the price in blood. Both of my grandfathers served in Europe during World War I and my great Uncle Bill was wounded. My father, who spent two years overseas in the Army Air Corp during World War II, carries half of a torn dollar bill in his wallet to this day. Over sixty-years ago he and his younger brother made a promise that they’d get together after the war and spend it. His younger brother, my Uncle John, never came home from World War II. I am mindful of the sacrifices my family has made defending our country. That’s another reason it breaks my heart to watch us lose our moral compass.

There are times when all seems lost and it is during those times I remember what I learned as a little boy. I remember to trust Jesus and pray. I ask Jesus for strength and always I pray for peace. I pray especially hard for Mr. Bush. I ask Jesus to touch his heart and help him realize that his deeds are not glorifying God. I pray for Alberto Gonzales to help him see that telling the most powerful man in the world that torture is an acceptable option is simply unacceptable. Prayer is powerful medicine. It can bring peace, both figuratively and literally. Right now I’d like to see peace literally, but I may have to settle for figuratively.

I have two requests of everyone reading this book. First, I would like you to pray for our leaders. Pray that the true spirit of Christ enters their hearts. Jesus was the Prince of Peace, not the Prince of War. I know He’s watching and I know He can’t be pleased.

Second, I’d like you to make a conscious decision to do something. To take back our country, we need to become active. The reason we’re in this mess is because conservatives will do anything to accomplish their agenda. It amazes me that when I happen to catch a glimpse of FOX News, they are still outraged and still on the offensive. Conservatives control the White House, the Senate, the House of Representatives, and are putting a stranglehold on the judiciary yet to listen to them, you’d think they were losing on all fronts. I can promise you one thing—they will never, ever stop. Not for one second will they sit back and say, “We’ve done it. We’ve captured all branches of government. We have our own television network that is ‘on message’ 24 hours a day. Rupert Murdoch’s money allows us to mislead the public 24 hours a day. We control talk radio to reinforce the message. If anyone disagrees with us, we have Clear Channel in position to censor them. We also got huge tax breaks while we ran up billions in debt. We’re in position to stop dozens of programs that we don’t like. We’ve rolled back most of the environmental laws that cut into corporate profits. We convinced the country we had to go to war by using our media to hammer the message and somehow, while we were starting a war, we convinced the people we are the party of God. Can you believe it? And the best part is the country doesn’t even realize what’s happened to them yet. By the time they wake up, we’ll figure out a way to blame someone else for all their problems. Is America a great country or what? Hey, let’s take a break and enjoy our privileged life and spend some of our wealth that we’ve vacuumed out of the Treasury.” Trust me when I say they will never blink, they will never relent, and they will never hesitate or even be bothered by a moment of doubt.

Rest assured that the conservatives will stop at nothing because they’re convinced they have a God given right to all the money, all the power, and all the privilege. Liberals know they’re wrong and yet we hesitate, we reflect, we reconsider, and at times we lack the courage of our convictions. Until that changes, our country will remain in the hands people who will gladly exploit the Son of God to keep themselves in power.

Here’s the part of the book where most authors give suggestions and the names of organizations that promote Christian ideals, liberty, peace, and social justice. I’m not going to do that. If the future of our nation isn’t important enough for us to look up a phone number or website then we might as well pass in the song books now. Freedom won’t survive.

But before I say “farewell” I want you to think about one last thing. Twenty-five years from now, when democracy exists in name only and the country is comprised of gated communities and the rest of us, what will we say to our grandchildren? What will we say when they ask us, “Was America always like this?” No, we’ll tell them and stories from America’s past will pour out of us. We’ll blink back tears as we use the words freedom, integrity, truth, and decency. We’ll tell our grandchildren how America used to be. Then we’ll try to explain how a small percentage of people took over the government by conning slightly over half of the voters that they spoke for God. Then our grandchildren will ask us the really hard question. “Grandma and Grandpa, what did you do to try and stop them?” And what will we say? Will we tell them that we fought to save America or will we be forced to stare at our feet out of a sense of shame? Will we be too ashamed to hold the gaze of a child?

So I’m not going to print a list of what we can do. We know what to do. The question is will we do it? Will we do it for America, the greatest experiment in democracy in the history of the world? Will we do it for our children and grandchildren, to whom we owe everything? Most importantly, will we do it for Jesus, who gave His life for us? Or are we going to sit back while conservatives use and abuse our Lord and our country? It’s time somebody did something. Well, that “time” is now and that “somebody” is...well, you know.

Yes, the conservatives have tried to take my Lord away but now more than ever, He is right beside me. He is in me. Take my Lord away? Steal my country? Not a chance.

http://www.myjesuswasaliberal.com/

[Spider]

http://www.myjesuswasaliberal.com/images/top-home.jpg

English philosopher Edmund Burke: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Load of Crap we all know Jesus didnt care if the hungry was fed , or if Children didnt have flu shots or clothes , Jesus would have invaded Iraq , Iran , Saudia Arabia etc .......... no seceret Jesus was into war .......

[spdirty]

I agree, but that's exactly what the Catholic Church tried to do in the last presidential election in some corners of the country. Certain "activist" Bishops deduced that if you supported Kerry, you also supported choice and thus should be not only denied Holy Communion but excomunicated. That was a bit surprising to me since not only was Kerry a Catholic himself, but abortion was far from the only plank in the DNC's platform. I was more than offended by that action and didn't blame anyone who left the Church to seek worship in other, less politically active, denominations.


They run that church like you'd run a government, and that isnt right.

[spdirty]

Load of Crap we all know Jesus didnt care if the hungry was fed , or if Children didnt have flu shots or clothes , Jesus would have invaded Iraq , Iran , Saudia Arabia etc .......... no seceret Jesus was into war .......

And we also know that he'd support abortion and gay marriage too.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Load of Crap we all know Jesus didnt care if the hungry was fed , or if Children didnt have flu shots or clothes , Jesus would have invaded Iraq , Iran , Saudia Arabia etc .......... no seceret Jesus was into war .......

You're right - how quickly I forget...

http://www.bartcop.com/xtreme-Jesus.jpg

[Spider]

And we also know that he'd support abortion and gay marriage too.
yep ....Death war and destruction was Christ message , the whole cross thing was just to throw his enemies off .......... I am shocked Jesus hasnt came down to earth and nuked the Middle east into glass by now..............

[spdirty]

You're right - how quickly I forget...

http://www.bartcop.com/xtreme-Jesus.jpg


Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! **** man, your killin me.

[Spider]

Hell no I wont pay taxes to help the poor and the needy , but I dont mind spending a billion + tax dollars to Haliburton , they need the money more ....Screw the kid and the flu shot ....... Kid gets the flu and dies , think of it as population control ........ .........go ahead Destroy the the enviorment , we will make another , hell it only took my Daddy 6 days ......we can do it again ......Jesus would be preaching this from the top of the empire state building

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

yep ....Death war and destruction was Christ message...

Don't forget hatred of gays, dude.

...the whole cross thing was just to throw his enemies off

:laugh:

I am shocked Jesus hasnt came down to earth and nuked the Middle east into glass by now..............

Not to mention whacking Hugo Chavez and all enemies of the Bush/Exxon New World Order.

[Spider]

more proof Jesus was into war .Alexander the great , the Roman empire , Napolean , the Brittish empire , Hitler ......just to name a few ...god and Jesus gave us all of these guys , why ? God and Jesus run bets on war games who will win or lose ........ word is God has the USA 5-1 odds vs the Middle East ..........

[Spider]

Don't forget hatred of gays, dude. Jesus has a special plan for Homos ........ Detriot ........







Not to mention whacking Hugo Chavez and all enemies of the Bush/Exxon New World Order.
Jesus will deal with him , he knows it .......Jesus will rain down on this clown ....everyone knowsJesus hates cheap oil

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

more proof Jesus was into war .Alexander the great , the Roman empire , Napolean , the Brittish empire , Hitler ......just to name a few ...god and Jesus gave us all of these guys , why ? God and Jesus run bets on war games who will win or lose ........ word is God has the USA 5-1 odds vs the Middle East ..........

Hallelujah, brother!

Preach it, Reverend Spider!

;D :thumbs:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

....everyone knowsJesus hates cheap oil

Hilarious! ^5

New bumper sticker for bush supporters:

"Jesus Hates Cheap Oil."

[Spider]

Another thing Jesus drives a hummer .........

[Spider]

Another thing ......... Jesus hates Hillary , if she gets elected , I suspect a toilet paper shortage .........

[Spider]

http://web.qx.net/abrock/ejesus.jpg

[Spider]

http://www.rusearching.com/starwars/images/jesus-on-cross-galaxy.jpg
I didnt die so you fools could sell cheap oil .........

[BroncoBuff]

"The wind is changing. Folks -- not just leaders -- are fed up with what is being portrayed as Christian values."
HALLELUJAH!

[defenseman]

Okay, now it's all Jesus's fault? Ok, well I guess that takes ole GW off the hook, thanks..dman

[Hogan11]

They run that church like you'd run a government, and that isnt right.

Not even close.

[Swedish Extrovert]

heh... ahhh religion

[W*GS]

Is it time for immigrants from our southern neighbors to bring their Liberation Theology with them?

[alkemical]

The problem is not with supporting the poor, its with keeping them poor. I have worked with a nonprofit benevolence organization for about 8 years now, and I have seen efficient and successful upward mobility in action, and it did not depend on anything the government provided outside of tax breaks. Even tax breaks wouldnt keep the organization from succeeding. That place has proven its success and recieves private donations by concerned benevolent citizens for their maintinance.

Welfare soothes the symptom, but does not treat the disease. It helps to lock people into the vicious cycle and does nothing to improve their lives. I'm certain that the social ideal of people dependant on government sustinence to maintain their livelyhood is an evil one. Especially when you couple it with the mind control of the public school system and the national media...the influence of these institutions is not subtle. It becomes even worse when you consider the government-aided movement to clean up their mess by allowing abortions and providing tax dollars for them. Ugly, ugly stuff...and the result of secular humanist philosphy.



Oh please. My family was on welfare for a while. My moms was making $12k a year raising two kids, and we NEEDED it.

Now for the public schools thing - i dunno - i went to public school and private school - and to be honest - the public school while academically not as challenging, wasn't as 'backwards' as the private school was in alot of things.


But hey, i turned out ok - well probably not to you fundies who have a pile of rocks waiting for armageddon so you can stone me to death for being a heretic and a magician.........

[alkemical]

They run that church like you'd run a government, and that isnt right.


well... does the vatican still have it's own army?

[footstepsfrom#27]

To vote Democrat in most places, you have to turn a blind eye to important social issues. The most glaring one being the use of tax money to promote secular humanism in public. Then you have abortion, welfare, gay marriage, the sex-for-everyone-with-no-consequences culture, the pervasion of sexual perversion on television, the intolerant liberal legal agenda, etc, etc.

The liberal social agenda is quite the opposite of a committed Christian. If a believer votes, he has to pick and choose the evils that he ignores and some of these are too glaring to ignore. Especially in light of the increasingly malicious opposition to Christian social concerns.
It would be tough to find a church more thoroughly committed to a theologically conservative doctrtinal position than this one: www.ocbfchurch.org or one MORE involved socially in the community with issues commonly identified as "liberal"...ie; hunger, poverty, education, drug abuse, etc...they defy the stereotypes on both sides.

The largest singular problem in this debate is the failure to recognize how the other side really thinks. The religious/poltiical right has failed to grasp that issues they classify as essentially "social" in nature...ie; poverty, crime, drug abuse, domestic violence, inadequate health care, child abuse, etc...are viewed as issues of MORALITY by many on the left who consider themselves Christians every bit as much as those on the political/relilgious right do, and while most in that camp are theological liberals, that is changing...as indicated by the example I linked to. The rise of racially and socio-economically mixed urban churches within evangelicalism is the driving force behind this. Of OCBF's 7,000 theologically conservative members, I would estimate that probably 80% or more vote democratic rather than with the GOP. Why? Because like nearly all black churches, they view issues like poverty, AIDS, education, racism and crime as essentially MORAL issues rather than social in nature. White evangelicals and Catholics make up the vast majority of the religous/poltical right, and it's time for them to understand that they cannot continue to prioritize morality as that which refers only to issues of sexual morality.

While the political/religous right has failed to understand the MORAL implications of issues like poverty and racism, the left has failed to grasp the importance of morality in the social agenda at all...choosing instead to demonize those issues of morality the right holds dearest as less important. A prime example; supporting abortion rights but advocating abolition of the death penalty on the grounds that it's cruel and inhuman...a bizzare dichotomy of thinking. Why is it acceptable to speak out on the death penalty and not on abortion? Both are "moral" issues.

Both the theologically/pollitically conservative right and the liberals invested in social justice issues need to come halfway to a position that places ALL issues of social justice into an arena where they are also considered MORAL issues as well. The Bible is full of examples of where social issues are cast within a context of morality. In the OT Israel was judged for, among other things...lack of concern for the poor, the orphaned and the widowed...issues that Jesus also castigated the religous "moralists" of his day for ignoring when he took the Pharisies and religous big shots to task for valuing their power and position and legal "correctness" over concern for people...and these are the same issues also improperly categorized as social rather than moral by many people on the religous/poltical right today. Abortion and the death penalty are BOTH moral issues. So are Enron, the usurpation of individual rights and urban poverty. You can't fight for one set of moral issues and beat the drum of self righteous indignation while continuing to stay silent on issues of social justice and remain consistent. Neither can you fight for social justice and pretend that concern over other moral issues like abortion isn't a valid issue worthy of inclusion in that fight. To do so is to fall victim to the deception of politicians that value your vote but not your conscience or passion.

When the church on both the left and the right begins to understand that regardless of how sincere they appear, the vast majority of politicians are fundamentally interested almost entirely only in their own self preservation and pandering to constituents who can keep them in power rather than the issues they claim to be passionate for, then and only then will they force those polticians to do the right thing rather than the right political thing.

[BroncoInferno]

A prime example; supporting abortion rights but advocating abolition of the death penalty on the grounds that it's cruel and inhuman...a bizzare dichotomy of thinking.

Only bizarre if you believe life begins at conception. Many people do not view the life cycle that way; they see the zygote/fetus as a POTENTIAL human, given the proper set of conditions, in the same way that a fertilized tree seed is a potential tree, but not yet a tree. If one holds this opinion, then there is no issue of consistency in an anti-death penaly/pro-choice viewpoint.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Only bizarre if you believe life begins at conception. Many people do not view the life cycle that way; they see the zygote/fetus as a POTENTIAL human, given the proper set of conditions, in the same way that a fertilized tree seed is a potential tree, but not yet a tree. If one holds this opinion, then there is no issue of consistency in an anti-death penaly/pro-choice viewpoint.
A position that cannot be supported by any kind of scientific evidence since the presumption that humans are capable of excercising the wisdom it takes to define when life begins is arbitrary at best.

I certainly hope you are right....

What if you're not?