hindsight is 20/20 but why the cutler pick still has a big downside.

[orange 4 life]

in light of my draft day meltdown the thread makes sense.
i liked the comments of van pelt today.
his job is to push PLUMMER, not cutler.

really, i dont think vanpelt is much of a factor in the long term, but the point is valid.
the problem is many FANS just dont see that.

after much time to settle down i can certainly understand the cutler pick, though i still dont like it.
its a tough situation.
realistically, the time to draft a qb for the future was a couple/three years from now when plummer wouldve been on the downside.
the problem with that is that the people who have said we likely wouldnt have had the opportunity to get a kid like cutler are right.

we probably wouldnt have had that opportunity in a few years.
still, thats a chance i wouldve happily taken.
remember, we were ONE game away from the superbowl. we had a 13-3 season, a division crown, and our 3rd consecutive playoff appearance.
also remember that we had a qb with a 2:1 td to turnover ratio who's only 31.
the timing just isnt right in my opinion.

that said, the opportunity presented itself and even guys like me (and plummer himself) have to understand that.

the problem now is the pressure the team will feel to PLAY cutler.

in an ideal world, we could all be happy to have plummer and watch him play for at least the next THREE years while cutler learns.
we could all remember that griese, plummer, and elway ALL agreed that 3 years is the timeframe to fully grasp the offense, and that assumes playing in it.
the problem is that people will want cutler to play THIS year.
if not this year (most reasonable people know thats just not practical), then next year.
now we have ourselves primed and ready for a qb controversy in the organization and amongst its fans.

whats the solution?
i havent a clue.

ill say this though.
if cutler DOES replace plummer in the next few years (im still not sold on the idea) and EARNS the respect as the broncos starter, ill get behind him as ive gotten behind plummer.
sadly, i think he'll face the same fate plummer has.

i look through this forum and see a ton of cutler avatars.
i also remember back to '03 and remember all the people with snake avatars.
when cutler does take over, he'll be under the same microscope, he'll play less than perfect, and of course he'll fail to live up to the ridiculous expectations that elway set.
....and then people will want HIM replaced.
at some point we need to just get back to our roots and support the guy at the helm without the overwhelming expectations.

in a perfect world, plummer can light it up this year and silence the doubters.
in a perfect world, cutler can watch and learn for a FEW years as plummer leads the team to more playoff appearances and hopefully another championship.

unfortunately, its not a perfect world.

here's to hoping. cheers.

jake

[Crushaholic]

At some point, the comparisons to Elway have to stop. I think Plummer leading the team to another couple of spectacular seasons (and maybe a SB) will pave the way for the next guy to take over without all the talk of "He's not Elway"...

[DomCasual]

They still serve the green jello with the carrots at Whispering Hills?

Good to see they got you re-regulated on the meds and back out into the world. Welcome back! :)

[orange 4 life]

At some point, the comparisons to Elway have to stop. I think Plummer leading the team to another couple of spectacular seasons (and maybe a SB) will pave the way for the next guy to take over without all the talk of "He's not Elway"...

i sure hope so, but i have doubts.

it seems to me that anyone taking snaps in this town is doomed.....at least for now.
i dont know when it will end, but it SHOULDVE ended after we saw how good plummer was/is in our system.

[elsid13]

They still serve the green jello with the carrots at Whispering Hills?

Good to see they got you re-regulated on the meds and back out into the world. Welcome back! :)

If I was a little eviler of SOB, I would attempt to put him back there.

[orange 4 life]

They still serve the green jello with the carrots at Whispering Hills?

Good to see they got you re-regulated on the meds and back out into the world. Welcome back! :)

whispering hills?

is that a golf course?

lots of golf (at the expense of my back) has been my saving grace.
my opinion hasnt changed.
just the deliveryLOL

[orange 4 life]

If I was a little eviler of SOB, I would attempt to put him back there.

and you would do that how? and why?

[DarkHorse30]

Is this a joke thread?








...pull my finger.

[elsid13]

and you would do that how? and why?

By respond to everything you post saying "But Cutler would do it better" ;D

Because it would interesting experiment on how much a Dick I could be.

But since i'm really not that much of ass, and I understand that you have strong feeling I will just enjoy the your Socal Ian Gold (SIG) style meltdowns. ;D

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Plummer is a serviceable QB at best who has been utterly dismal in big games (playoffs). Shanahan knows it. That's why he drafted Cutler.

[Paladin]

Ya know, I think Plummer is actually somewhere between the extremes I read on this board nearly every day. Some (I won't say who) thinks the sun rises and sets on his cajones, while others think he is barely serviceable, and it is only by the grace of the spirit of Saint Pete Rozelle that he even has a job in football. Maybe that's Saint Mike Shanahan (but only because Plummer has the pictures, or something...).

I don't think he is the best QB out there. OTOH, he does seem to execute football plays he is given with a fair degree of positive results.

To be honest, I am happy with the 13 win season and the win against the Pats. Don't really care how the Broncos got them, they just did. Plummer was the QB in all 16 of those games with minor exceptions. Good enough. He'll at least do in a pinch.

Why Cutler? I have seen a lot of ambiguity towards him and his selection on this board. Well, he's here now, so let's move on. The kid will do whatever the kid will do when he does it. In the meantime, I think this team has the capacity to do as well as last year in the regular season and maybe even better in the post-season. It remains to be seen.

If anyone wants to sell me his season tickets at face, let me know. I'm ready for the season.... And I will enjoy it all.

[Garcia Bronco]

I'm not dumping Plummer. Cutler still has to earn the job.

[watermock]

Orange, you are undoubtedly the biggest homer for Plummer on the board. You know I had serious concerns about his picks, and that evil demon showed up again at the worst possible time in 4 turnovers with the disclaimer that the Steelers played a very fine, mistake free game while ours was ripped to shreds. This isn't Pitt that had to insert Big Ben and restrict him his first year, and Cohwers offense isn't nearly as complicated as ours.

Despite many of us, especially Taco didn't like the move, he was the best available option. At least it avoided a full blown riot over Griese. I supported Griese and I supported Plummer and I will support Jay if and when he has earned it. Remember, Jake has been injury free two full years, it will be nice to have the luxury of Cuttler behind him for now. Sure, I was surprised because I too felt Jake had at least 5 more years in him. This year, he dropped, we had alot of picks, and managed to get possibly the best QB of the three IMO. Leinart seems too hollywood with a weak arm and Young ran behind a simplified offense exclusively thru the shotgun. We got an excellent prospect and still had a full draft plus Walker. Unlike Elway and Big Ben, Cutler will have the opportunity to fully digest the offense for a few years or get on the field due to injury and maybe never give it back like Brady, who couldn't unseat Griese at Michigan. The stars aligned too well not to grab the brass ring.

[Tombstone RJ]

I had one goal for the Broncos before the 2005 season, and that was for the Broncos to WIN a playoff game. They did that. Jake did that, I'm still very supportive of Plummer.

[baja]

Plummer is a serviceable QB at best who has been utterly dismal in big games (playoffs). Shanahan knows it. That's why he drafted Cutler.

Can we have an "Amen' here cause this is the bottom line

[Taco John]

Van Pelt is dreaming... Good for him...

[Clockwork Orange]

Van Pelt is dreaming... Good for him...

At least he's not afraid of competition......and we all know that BVP's got no shot at beating anyone out.

[Taco John]

Actually, I wouldn't be suprised to see Van Pelt take the #2 spot, and Cutler serve as our #3 this season. I suspect Shanahan is going to be tough on Cutler from the outset and play some mental games with the guy.

With regards to the idea that we could coast with Plummer as quarterback for three of four more years, Shanahan doesn't have that kind of patience, let alone the fan base... The message to Plummer is win now.

[Clockwork Orange]

Actually, I wouldn't be suprised to see Van Pelt take the #2 spot, and Cutler serve as our #3 this season. I suspect Shanahan is going to be tough on Cutler from the outset and play some mental games with the guy.

I disagree. If Plummer gets hurt, I don't see them running BVP out there, I see them going with Cutler.

I have nothing against BVP, but to say that I'm skeptical about his ability to throw the football would be putting it mildly.

[broncohaven]

Plummer is a serviceable QB at best who has been utterly dismal in big games (playoffs). Shanahan knows it. That's why he drafted Cutler.
Oh sweet lord, I agree with Beerslug. Hey Mock, is it getting cold where you are?

[orange 4 life]

I think paladin and mock are right on the money.

i dont now nor have i ever said plummer is the best out there.
i simply say he's well above average and more than enough to win it all.
how we've done in the past three seasons shows that.

as for the playoffs, the two indy games were just out of control.
blaming plummer for those games is no less silly than blaming elway for his 1st three superbowl losses.
with pittsburgh, it was a total team loss.
the defense was TERRIBLE.
the offensive line was terrible.
our running game was inneffective.
plummer was off.

it was all of them, and plummer is indeed the leader, though you again need to examine those picks.
while many of you probably blame plummer for the int at the end of the 1st half, it was alexander who got ripped a new one on the sideline.
he didnt break on his route and plummer threw where he was supposed to be.

again, plummer was bad that day too, but he was DAMN good the entire season before.
he had a bad day, and so did the whole team, and they picked a bad day to do it.
does that mean it will happen again?
of course not.

the sun doesnt rise and set on plummer, but he's ALOT more than a "serviceable" quarterback.

[orange 4 life]

......and again, my problem with our fans is that even when (and IF) cutler replaces plummer, cutler will receive the same treatment.

he'll get blamed for losses, have his strengths ignored, and his weaknesses exaggerated.
it wont happen immediately of course, but it will happen.

with griese, it was his 3rd and then 4th season as the starter that lost the fans.
with plummer, it was his second season, and then one game in his 3rd season that lost him with many of the fans.

as much of a plummer fan as i am, i will of course get behind cutler if and when he becomes the starter, but i can then foresee just having another guy who falls from grace.

everyone loved griese in '00, and everyone loved plummer in '03.
again, snake avatars were everywhere when he took over.
now, cutler is the flavor of the day......until HE plays and throws a couple int's.
i hope not, but thats become our pattern.

while most everyone has given up on lelie, im still holding out (pun intended ;D ) hope that he comes to his senses and gets his butt in camp.
smith, walker, and lelie would be a lethal enough combo that plummer very well might force the cutler avatars to contain the phrase "NOT NOW" at the bottom.

i can hope.

[watermock]

That's your perception. Cutler won't be the next flavor of the day, hopefully. If he busts we insert Jake for another year, and another if we have to. He has all the skills plus intangibles, and I'm talking about past two years possibly.

[listopencil]

Brister < Griese < Plummer <...Cutler? We'll find out-but I hope we don't find out for at least three years.

[ludo21]

Cutler has to earn the job. He wont do it this year, maybe next year.

But the fact is, he will have to EARN IT, an beat out Jake. So when that happens, we will be sure that we are getting a better QB than Jake at the time.

And to me, thats pretty darn good.

[orange 4 life]

Brister < Griese < Plummer <...Cutler? We'll find out-but I hope we don't find out for at least three years.

im with you listo.

if we DO find out before 3 years, it will be a mistake. plain and simple.

[orange 4 life]

Cutler has to earn the job. He wont do it this year, maybe next year.

But the fact is, he will have to EARN IT, an beat out Jake. So when that happens, we will be sure that we are getting a better QB than Jake at the time.

And to me, thats pretty darn good.

thats a simple and fantastic point.....as long as it really happens this way.

i know alot of us think shanahan doesnt succumb to fan and/or media pressures, but i dont know if thats COMPLETELY true.
if we dont win it all in the next two years (and maybe even ONE year) most people will be screaming out for cutler to take over.

it would be a mistake of course (unless he does in fact beat out jake which of course is extremely unlikely in the next few years), but i fear the organization might just do it anyway.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

it would be a mistake of course (unless he does in fact beat out jake which of course is extremely unlikely in the next few years), but i fear the organization might just do it anyway.
Why is there a 3 year waiting period?

[MechanicalBull]

Van Pelt is saying all the right things and for that I applaud him cause he can sit and complain saying he is already the #3 QB and so on like some WR is saying. I hope Van Pelt stays around but I'm not sure he is going to.

No one should ever be compared to Elway or any of the greats because they are unlike any other player out there. Elway is Elway Plummer is Plummer and Cutler is Cutler. I hate when so called experts compare rookies to greats even ESPN saying Cutler is Favre. Let the kid play a game first.

I liked the pick of Cutler a lot but I think even if he does well in camp and preseason he won't play a meaninfull snap all season. I just don't see Jake getting benched if we are god forbid something like 2-6 and Jake has 20 ints at the half way point. I think Jake has done a very good job and has earned his spot to go and play through a full season no matter what.

[Rock Chalk]

Plummer is a serviceable QB at best who has been utterly dismal in big games (playoffs). Shanahan knows it. That's why he drafted Cutler.
Hater. Thats pure and simple hatred.

Shanny took Cutler because he saw something special he could develop for a few years while he wins two, three championships with Plummer.

3rd year in, goes 13-3 in the Denver system, takes us to the AFC Championship game, we lose, badly, on all fronts, but losing this time to the world champions who had all the momentum in the world and just knocked off "the greatest non-SB team EVER" in their house. New England never even did that as far as I can remember.

And he's a "serviceable" QB. Plummer was utterly dismal in the playoff losses yes, but on the same token, the whole ****ing team was dismal. UTTERLY dismal. Run, pass, catch, block, pass rush, cover, tackle, punt, return, kick coverage, snapping, jesus the whole ****ing team stunk it up in all of those games and Shannahan knows that. Cutler was a bonus because its rare to be in that position.

Plummer in his fourth year under Shannahan is going to be awesome and you watch, the defense will fail us again. Our defense will give up more than 20 points in big games OTHER than points caused by offensive ineptitude so I dont want to hear **** about Plummer being the only scapegoat here.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Hater. Thats pure and simple hatred.

Shanny took Cutler because he saw something special he could develop for a few years while he wins two, three championships with Plummer.

Yeah right, aren't you the guy that said last night Plummer broke most of Elway's records?

[Tombstone RJ]

Shanahan is the one person who preaches, stresses, competition in camp. Competition between players, getting the best out of each individual in order to put the best team together when training camp ends.

When Elway was in the twighlight of his career, Shanahan simply built a team around Elway that could get him to the big dance. It worked. Shanahan got lucky (somewhat lucky) with a guy by the name of Terrell Davis, and Shanahan also brought in alot of FAs.

Well, Shanny and the Broncos don't have Elway or Davis or Sharp or Eddy Mac or Schlereth or Zimmerman or many of the other offensive stars that lit up the scoreboard every Sunday when the Broncos were dominating the NFL.

So, Shanahan continues to look for great players. He's wasted money on guys like Griese and Carter, and he's gambled on picks like Nash and Middlerooks and Toviessi. But he's not standing pat. I like that. I like that he's pushing Plummer to get better. I like the fact that he's willing to let Portis go to bring in Bailey. I like the fact that he gives lucritive contracts to productive players, and he lets the ones who aren't living up to the Broncos high standards walk.

Until the Broncos find a top 5 QB, hell a top 3 QB, hell the best QB in the NFL, I'm willing to let Shanny keep looking.

Its the toughest position in the NFL to fill. But once that guy is found, the franchise is set for years, years. The Steelers have their guy in Roethleisberger (sp). The Colts have Manning. The Patriots have Brady. The Eagles have McNabb. The Bengals have Palmer (if he survives) and just look at how long its taken the Bengals to find that one really good QB!

If some peeps on the board want to be content with a servicable QB, fine. That is exactly what Griese was. He's ok, nothing great. If people want to be content with a good QB, fine. That's exactly what Plummer is. He's good, but not exceptional, and he's prone to mental breakdowns.

I want Shanny to keep looking. Until he finds a QB that I think is in the same league as Tom Brady, I will want him to keep finding that perfect fit QB for the Broncos. I'm not asking for another Elway, but I am asking for a great QB. So sue me.

I think Cutler has great potential. Its no diss to Plummer.

[Rock Chalk]

I think Cutler has that potential. Its no diss to Plummer, its just a feeling I have.
I think Cutler has the same career Jake Plummer has had (in Denver). I do not diss cutler, its just a feeling I have.

[SureShot]

[quote=orange 4 life]in light of my draft day meltdown the thread makes sense.
i liked the comments of van pelt today.
his job is to push PLUMMER, not cutler.

really, i dont think vanpelt is much of a factor in the long term, but the point is valid.
the problem is many FANS just dont see that.

after much time to settle down i can certainly understand the cutler pick, though i still dont like it.
its a tough situation.
realistically, the time to draft a qb for the future was a couple/three years from now when plummer wouldve been on the downside.
the problem with that is that the people who have said we likely wouldnt have had the opportunity to get a kid like cutler are right.

we probably wouldnt have had that opportunity in a few years.
still, thats a chance i wouldve happily taken.
remember, we were ONE game away from the superbowl. we had a 13-3 season, a division crown, and our 3rd consecutive playoff appearance.
also remember that we had a qb with a 2:1 td to turnover ratio who's only 31.
the timing just isnt right in my opinion.

that said, the opportunity presented itself and even guys like me (and plummer himself) have to understand that.

the problem now is the pressure the team will feel to PLAY cutler.

in an ideal world, we could all be happy to have plummer and watch him play for at least the next THREE years while cutler learns.
we could all remember that griese, plummer, and elway ALL agreed that 3 years is the timeframe to fully grasp the offense, and that assumes playing in it.
the problem is that people will want cutler to play THIS year.
if not this year (most reasonable people know thats just not practical), then next year.
now we have ourselves primed and ready for a qb controversy in the organization and amongst its fans.

whats the solution?
i havent a clue.

ill say this though.
if cutler DOES replace plummer in the next few years (im still not sold on the idea) and EARNS the respect as the broncos starter, ill get behind him as ive gotten behind plummer.
sadly, i think he'll face the same fate plummer has.

i look through this forum and see a ton of cutler avatars.
i also remember back to '03 and remember all the people with snake avatars.
when cutler does take over, he'll be under the same microscope, he'll play less than perfect, and of course he'll fail to live up to the ridiculous expectations that elway set.
....and then people will want HIM replaced.
at some point we need to just get back to our roots and support the guy at the helm without the overwhelming expectations.

in a perfect world, plummer can light it up this year and silence the doubters.
in a perfect world, cutler can watch and learn for a FEW years as plummer leads the team to more playoff appearances and hopefully another championship.

unfortunately, its not a perfect world.

here's to hoping. cheers.

I WOULN'T WANT HIM PUSHING MY SHOPPING CART!

[Kaylore]

Jake Plummer is a good quarterback.

I think Jay Cutler has more upside and could be a franchise, top-tier signal caller for us.

I've always felt that you build your offense around two players: A franchise running back or a franchise quarterback. We build our game around the rushing attack. I'll never understand why Shanahan never made a play at puting a super-stud back into our system since TD left. It would be dominant if we did that, and yet he keeps puting guys in that are pretty good to serviceable.

I don't think Jake is the kind of guy that can go all the way with pretty good to serviceable talent around him. He needs some guys who have elite talent.

So Shanahan has gone and retrieved some big weapons for him and we'll see how he does. If it doesn't work out, I believe that Cutler will be that franchise QB that you can really build a team around.

And Cutler will be listed as the number 2 on the depth chart. Your depth chart position determines the amount of snaps you take in practice, and you don't pay a guy that kind of money so he can just sit on bench and watch the other two work.

[TotallyScrewed]

13-3 was last year. There are no guarantees that same players, same opponents would lead to the same results. I'm just saying...

It's very difficult to tell just how close Denver was to going all the way. If we look at their final game, it hard to honestly say they were close, only a player away.

[watermock]

We caught Philly in controversy and NE with alot of injuries. We also won alot of games we let slip away in other years and were remarkably injury free considering all.

[Popps]

Plummer is a serviceable QB at best who has been utterly dismal in big games (playoffs). Shanahan knows it. That's why he drafted Cutler.

So, none of the 33 regular season games he's won for us have been "big," huh? How about the playoff game he won?

Gosh, I guess Jake just forgets how to play football in big games, huh? Nothing to do with opposing defenses, our our defense putting him in 24-35 point ****-holes in the first half of every playoff game.

Oddly, the one playoff game where our defense actually showed up.... we won.

It's so funny. It's the Elway thing all over. Jake isn't as talented, but he's beyond talented enough to win multiple Superbowls for this team. But, he'll never get the chance when our D lays down in the first half of every game.

[ZachKC]

Plummer as QB for 3 or 4 more years...

I am not that lucky.

[JCMElway]

One thing I disagree with Orange 4....

I don't want to see Cutler anywhere near the field this year. I realistically don't want to see him next year either. In my perfect world Jake has at least a couple of productive years and then Cut and Jake battle it out for the starting job in year three.

[Crushaholic]

Plummer as QB for 3 or 4 more years...

I am not that lucky.

The learning curve for Cutler will be allowed to develop and grow. What about the learning curve for Croyle? Can you emphatically state that Green will be around for 3 or 4 years? When Roaf and Shields retire, that offensive line will fail Green...

[Paladin]

Well, it seems there is a bit more realisim here.

1.) Plummer will be there for at least two years.
2.) Cutler will be on the team, prolly as number 3 at least through year 1.
3.) Cutler will have to earn the job, it should not be handed to him.
4.) Cutler is a good prospect to have in the barn.
5.) The mullets are jealous.

That about it?

Oh, yeah. Everyone who dissed Plummer did not dis Plummer but only thought he was serviceable for at least 0-to-two SB wins (depending on the beer), and everyone who hangs on his jock do not believe he is the best one out there.

[ZachKC]

The learning curve for Cutler will be allowed to develop and grow. What about the learning curve for Croyle? Can you emphatically state that Green will be around for 3 or 4 years? When Roaf and Shields retire, that offensive line will fail Green...
Hey I am not sure what Croyle will be or wont be. I think its foolish to imagine this organization will let Plummer be at the helm for this team another 4 or 5 years.

But if they do...I would be smiling from ear to ear.

[Popps]

Scouting Report: Tim Couch

Confident leader with excellent size & arm strength...Has the arm power on his deep tosses...Powerful stepping up in the pocket...Drills the short outs & has a quick release to put tremendous zip behind his intermediate throws...Very effective lofting the ball & dropping it over the head of defenders on deep routes..


Scouting Report: Ryan Leaf
appears to be the hot QB in this draft, and he led WSU to a storybook season...He is a physically imposing QB with great size and strength....he is very sturdy and durable in the pocket, and is a surprisingly good athlete for his size...He has a strong arm and shows good touch, and can change up the speed on his passes...He has good feet, but is not really a scrambler. However, he can stand in and take the big hits.

Scouting Report: Kyle Boller
Good size, speed and outstanding athletic ability for the position. Has a quick setup, a very strong arm and large hands. Can drill the outs and air the ball out. Took to the new offense very well and went from being a thrower with poor mechanics to a pitcher with solid mechanics. Is a good leader and a tough guy. Took a terrible beating his first three years and never quit. Very accurate from hash to sideline. Works hard and shows he will pay the price. Athletic but doesn't force issue with athleticism. Also has a 35½-inch vertical leap, and ran a 3.99 shuttle and 7.19 three-cone.


That's why it's just plain silly to be projecting Cutler into the starting lineup any time soon. For every Ben Rothlisberger, there are five Jim Druckenmillers.

In fact, take a browse through the first round QB picks over the last ten years. How many of them panned out to be worthy of the pick:
http://www.twominutewarning.com/qbrd1.htm

Going back to 1995, I'd say 4... and that's being generous.

Jake has proven he can be productive. Cutler will have to buck extreme odds to do the same. Hopefully he will. But, I wouldn't start writing checks on him just yet.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

In fact, take a browse through the first round QB picks over the last ten years. How many of them panned out to be worthy of the pick:
http://www.twominutewarning.com/qbrd1.htm

Going back to 1995, I'd say 4... and that's being generous.


4 is generous? I'd love to see your standards for what makes a QB worthy of a 1st round pick.

From '95 on:
McNair
Peyton
McNabb
Culpepper
Pennington
Palmer
Leftwich
Eli
Big Ben
Vick

There's 9 guys worth a 1st

Jury still out on:
Rivers
Smith
Rodgers
Campbell
Carr
Losman
Young
Leinart
Cutler

[SoCalBronco]

That's why it's just plain silly to be projecting Cutler into the starting lineup any time soon. For every Ben Rothlisberger, there are five Jim Druckenmillers.

.

I'm not sure why you are using Druckenmiller. You seem to be trying to make the argument that there are alot of hyped QBs who dont pan out. Druckenmiller was not highly thought of as a prospect by many, including Bill Walsh.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I'm not sure why you are using Druckenmiller. You seem to be trying to make the argument that there are alot of hyped QBs who dont pan out. Druckenmiller was not even a first round pick and Walsh hated the pick when it was made.

Popps' logic- if a better player was drafted at the same position after said player, then said player was not worth the pick no matter how good of a player he is.

Remember, Javon was worth the #37 because Popps was clairvoyant enough to ascertain that no one selected at that spot or later would be as good a player as Javon. IIRC, he also started a thread saying that the 15th was worth Javon for the same reason.

[brncs_fan]

That's why it's just plain silly to be projecting Cutler into the starting lineup any time soon. For every Ben Rothlisberger, there are five Jim Druckenmillers.
Steve Young was on ESPN radio before the draft and stated that any former Elite QB can tell you if a guy is going to make it. He stated that he watched Drunkenmiller throw passes for 30 seconds the first day of camp and knew the guy wouldn't pan out. Coincidently, he also said Cutler was the best QB in the draft.

[Kaylore]

Steve Young was on ESPN radio before the draft and stated that any former Elite QB can tell you if a guy is going to make it. He stated that he watched Drunkenmiller throw passes for 30 seconds the first day of camp and knew the guy wouldn't pan out. Coincidently, he also said Cutler was the best QB in the draft.
All the former Quarterback prospects I listened to pointed to Cutler as the best Quarterback and the one most likely to be able to play at the pro level.

Well, all except Sean Salisbury.

[brncs_fan]

Well, all except Sean Salisbury.
One of these days Clayton is going to throw down and make Sean look like a two-bit hoser. :nutkick

[ludo21]

One of these days Clayton is going to throw down and make Sean look like a two-bit hoser. :nutkick


Every time they talk 1-1 he shows him up. Ha!

[Taco John]

If Plummer throws multiple turnovers in a post season game this year and we lose in a lopsided defeat, it will be his last start as a Bronco, barring injury to Cutler.

[Popps]

Yeah right, aren't you the guy that said last night Plummer broke most of Elway's records?

Are you saying he hasn't?

-Most passes without an interception
Jake's new moniker: Denver QB Jake Plummer, a bona-fide MVP candidate, extended his franchise-record streak of passes without an interception to 219. Now, some in Denver are calling "Jake the Snake" by a new nickname: "No Mistake Jake."
Star Tribune

-Wins in a season (tie)

-Yardage in a season

TD's in a season (tie)

Yardage in a game

-Only Bronco QB to take every snap in a 16 game season

-Least sacks taken in a season (15)

While it's not official, I'd also suspect he's holding the records for passer rating over a 3 year span, and he's 6 wins shy of the franchise record for wins over a 3 year period, and I don't think anyone would question that the caliber of the team surrounding Elway for those 39 wins in 3 years was drastically better than what surrounded Plummer for his 33 wins over three.

So, don't hate the messenger... but most of the records that Elway still holds have to do with the number of years played.

Doesn't mean that Jake is John, but it means.... once again, that saying something (Jake hasn't broken John's records) doesn't make it true.

[Popps]

Popps' logic- if a better player was drafted at the same position after said player, then said player was not worth the pick no matter how good of a player he is.

Yea, you show me where I said that.

But, I understand that you can't challenge the factual information I've put forth, so making stuff up is pretty much your only out.

[brncs_fan]

-Wins in a season (tie)
Does that include 1998? Elway was the QB in 98 when the Broncos posted 14 regular season wins, one more than Plummer this year (13). Elway missed some games that year though with injuries and Brister carried the load for a few weeks. So are we going by wins by the QB in the season or team wins?

[Ballhawk]

Are you saying he hasn't?

-Most passes without an interception
Jake's new moniker: Denver QB Jake Plummer, a bona-fide MVP candidate, extended his franchise-record streak of passes without an interception to 219. Now, some in Denver are calling "Jake the Snake" by a new nickname: "No Mistake Jake."
Star Tribune

I can't remember but I think we never trailed by more than a TD during this streak. Give Jake a 2 TD deficeit and the ints poor in.

-Yardage in a season

Decent record to hold

Yardage in a game

Which he lost and also threw what 4 ints?

-Only Bronco QB to take every snap in a 16 game season

Well if he would have closed out more wins he could have sat the last regular season game.

-Least sacks taken in a season (15)

How is Jake getting credit for the Oline's work???



Took out the tied records as they were not broken, just shared.

[Popps]

Took out the tied records as they were not broken, just shared.

He holds the record.

Two people can hold a record.

Heard of Jason Elam?

But, you're right... let's bust his balls because he co-holds some franchise records with Elway.

[Kaylore]

Low sack numbers have more to do with the Quarterback than you're giving credit for.

[brncs_fan]

Low sack numbers have more to do with the Quarterback than you're giving credit for.
Exactly. Elway had a superior line in the SB years than we do now. By that time though he was less mobil than in his younger days.

[Kaylore]

Exactly. Elway had a superior line in the SB years than we do now. By that time though he was less mobil than in his younger days.
Actually mobility has nothing to do with it. in fact it can hurt your sack numbers. It's the Quarterback's ability to get rid of the ball.

Look at the scrambling Quarterbacks in the NFL and they will have the highest sack totals. Pocket presence isn't the same as scrambling ability. Elway was always milking as much time as possible trying to move around and make a play and so he got sacked quite a bit. Scrambles out of bounds behind the LOS count as sacks too, and we'd seen some of those as well.

It's about pocket presence, quick release, and knowing where you are going with the ball. In fact part of the reason that the sacks were so low in '04 was because Jake was throwing it up for grabs when he should have just covered the ball and taken one.

[Popps]

Denver's sacks against went from 46 in 2002 with Griese at the helm...

to 25 with Jake in 2003, and he set the franchise record only being taken down 15 times the next year.

Gosh, I wonder if the change in sack numbers had anything to do with the QB?

Nah, must have been the addition of George Foster.

Good lord.

[footstepsfrom#27]

in an ideal world, we could all be happy to have plummer and watch him play for at least the next THREE years while cutler learns.
we could all remember that griese, plummer, and elway ALL agreed that 3 years is the timeframe to fully grasp the offense, and that assumes playing in it.
I didn't bother to read this whole thread...not at 3:00 am...but just to respond to this; BUNK! It doens't take 3 years of toting a clipboard to learn this offense. Shanahan said that Griese knew it as well as he did in his 2nd year after playing clipboard caddy to Elway for one year. Plummer got it right in his 2nd year also. I'm tired of people talking about this offense like it's cold fusion or something. It's a freaking football game. Do you think all these guys are Mensa candidates or something? No way does Cutler sit for 3 years...2 at the most...and I'll bet he gets a shot in his 2nd year...if not some time under center in his rookie year during a blowout. I would not be shocked if he started sometime this year.
when cutler does take over, he'll be under the same microscope, he'll play less than perfect, and of course he'll fail to live up to the ridiculous expectations that elway set.
....and then people will want HIM replaced.
at some point we need to just get back to our roots and support the guy at the helm without the overwhelming expectations.
I don't have overwhelming expectations of Jake. I think he's done a good job with what he has to work with, and deserves major props for improving his game. But let's quit acting like Jake doesn't come with some problems that make it tough to overlook his shortcomings as well. Jake just flat doesn't have that great an arm and he's never going to be more than a barely average drop back passer who is much better on the run. He can't lead a receiver like Lelie on a deep route. Corners know that so they're not going to respect that deep speed by playing off and giving the underneath because they know if Jake goes deep they get an extra couple of steps to catch up. I don't expect Jake to be John, or Cutler either. Jake can keep his job as long as he wants it. All he has to do is prove he can take this team all the way to the trophy. Maybe he can...but I'm not convinced that he's not just a pretty good QB who is destined to be Elway's version of Danny White.

One way or the other...you're right about this; the pressure's on Jake to step up.

[Taco John]

If I'm not mistaken, Elway was the most sacked quarterback in NFL history.

[Taco John]

In a Shanahan offense, if his reads aren't open, Plummer is instructed to throw away the ball and expire the down. That's the primary reason his sacks have come down tremendously. It has a little to do with his mobility, but for the most part, he's not even allowed to scramble... GET RID OF THE BALL!

I think Plummer buying into the system is the primary reason his sacks have taken a dramatic decline. I doubt this would be the case if he was given any freedom to freelance.

[Kaylore]

In a Shanahan offense, if his reads aren't open, Plummer is instructed to throw away the ball and expire the down. That's the primary reason his sacks have come down tremendously. It has a little to do with his mobility, but for the most part, he's not even allowed to scramble... GET RID OF THE BALL!

I think Plummer buying into the system is the primary reason his sacks have taken a dramatic decline. I doubt this would be the case if he was given any freedom to freelance.
Actually he was sacked more this year than last year. Sometimes the systems asks you to take a sack. My post earlier explains this.

[Taco John]

My bad. I misinterpreted Popps last post.

[fontaine]

I could care less about Plummer vs. Cutler.

The main point is that no matter who the starting QB is -> Mike Shanahan will get the most out of his skills and abilities.

Plummer has been able to do all these things largely due to the offense Shanahan has put together around him and the way he's molded Plummer.

I don't care who the starting QB is as long as Shanahan is the guy that's in his corner and his first choice. If Shanahan wants Plummer to start then I'll back him 100%.

If he feels Cutler is ready to take over next season, in the next four years, or now, this season, then I'll buy that too.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I wonder if Plummer will be expected to do more this season.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So, none of the 33 regular season games he's won for us have been "big," huh? How about the playoff game he won?

Oh yeah, he was stellar in that game. Difler won a SB, doesn't make him a great QB. Does make him a serviceable QB though.

My point stands, Plummer is serviceable (not a great) QB.

[Popps]

Difler won a SB, doesn't make him a great QB. Does make him a serviceable QB though.


Great analogy.

One guy did almost nothing but stay out the way for a season... the other busted up a bunch of his team's franchise passing records.

One had a world class defense, the other's put him in 30 point first half holes every playoff game.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Great analogy.

One guy did almost nothing but stay out the way for a season... the other busted up a bunch of his team's franchise passing records.

One had a world class defense, the other's put him in 30 point first half holes every playoff game. Really, who's that?

[bendog]

All the former Quarterback prospects I listened to pointed to Cutler as the best Quarterback and the one most likely to be able to play at the pro level.

Well, all except Sean Salisbury.
Just because Minny let Salisbury play for a couple of years doesn't mean he was an NFL caiber QB. I mean they had Joe Kapp for what? Ten years or something? We're talking a team that really does belong in the CFL

[MechanicalBull]

Oh yeah, he was stellar in that game. Difler won a SB, doesn't make him a great QB. Does make him a serviceable QB though.

My point stands, Plummer is serviceable (not a great) QB.

I don't think anyone is stating that Jake is a great QB, I think he is an above average QB though. I'd take him over a lot of other starting QBs. I know it's easier said than done but if he overcomes his stupid mistakes which he has been doing I think he can take this team to the superbowl.

I'm not comparing Jake to Roethlisberger but Big Ben doesn't put up great stats he just is great at winning games and not blowing it. The guy does what is asked and rarely loses a game for his team. Sure I want the glitz and glamour of a top tier QB or RB but I'd rather have a serviceable QB and win the Superbowl than a great QB and not win one. We also have to close out games there were way too many games last season where we were up big and held on to win by a small margin.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I don't think anyone is stating that Jake is a great QB, I think he is an above average QB though. I'd take him over a lot of other starting QBs. I know it's easier said than done but if he overcomes his stupid mistakes which he has been doing I think he can take this team to the superbowl.

I'm not comparing Jake to Roethlisberger but Big Ben doesn't put up great stats he just is great at winning games and not blowing it. The guy does what is asked and rarely loses a game for his team. Sure I want the glitz and glamour of a top tier QB or RB but I'd rather have a serviceable QB and win the Superbowl than a great QB and not win one. We also have to close out games there were way too many games last season where we were up big and held on to win by a small margin.
Stick around for awhile and keep calling him serviceable and see what happens.

Shanahan knows he can't turn Plummer loose (and win games anyway). We get behind and we're done, it's that simple.

[bendog]

Stick around for awhile and keep calling him serviceable and see what happens.

Shanahan knows he can't turn Plummer loose (and win games anyway). We get behind and we're done, it's that simple.
I think we can say the same thing about Hassleback and Delhomme.

As for comparisons, I'm hoping that Cutler someday compares to the other no. 7.

[MechanicalBull]

Stick around for awhile and keep calling him serviceable and see what happens.

Shanahan knows he can't turn Plummer loose (and win games anyway). We get behind and we're done, it's that simple.

Yes I agree if we get behind than we are pretty much done, but Trent Dilfer wasn't going to win games too if Balt. was down late in the game. I think this is one of those teams where if we went back in time and played the same playoffs again we could go to the superbowl or we could get killed 30-7 in the first game. We are just that kind of team I don't think there are many teams that fear playing us. Hopefully Shanahan has gotten who he needs so we won't be behind that much, but I don't know if he did. Plummer I think just has to manage the game and not go all out trying to do too much and maybe Dayne or Bell can be a good to great back where we can turn the ball over to them late in the game and kill the clock and not worry about teams catching up like last season. This team stil has some question marks but it looks to be heading in the right direction.

[Popps]

Stick around for awhile and keep calling him serviceable and see what happens.

Shanahan knows he can't turn Plummer loose (and win games anyway). We get behind and we're done, it's that simple.

Plummer has retooled his game since coming to Denver in 2003 by limiting his mistakes. He threw just seven interceptions this season for the second time in three years and set a franchise record with 229 straight passes without an interception.Like Brady, Plummer has 21 come-from-behind victories late in the game.

He also built a rep as a come from behind player in college. So, I'm not sure which guy you're watching. If you're referring to our playoff games... you ought to go back and re-analyze what really happened, and what's realistic to expect from a quarterback in terms of playing from "behind."

Digging out of 24 point first half holes that your defense put you in is a a tall order, and one even Elway would have rarely been able to do.

So, once again... you can say it, but it doesn't make it true.

[Steve Sewell]

in light of my draft day meltdown the thread makes sense.
i liked the comments of van pelt today.
his job is to push PLUMMER, not cutler.

really, i dont think vanpelt is much of a factor in the long term, but the point is valid.
the problem is many FANS just dont see that.

after much time to settle down i can certainly understand the cutler pick, though i still dont like it.
its a tough situation.
realistically, the time to draft a qb for the future was a couple/three years from now when plummer wouldve been on the downside.
the problem with that is that the people who have said we likely wouldnt have had the opportunity to get a kid like cutler are right.

we probably wouldnt have had that opportunity in a few years.
still, thats a chance i wouldve happily taken.
remember, we were ONE game away from the superbowl. we had a 13-3 season, a division crown, and our 3rd consecutive playoff appearance.
also remember that we had a qb with a 2:1 td to turnover ratio who's only 31.
the timing just isnt right in my opinion.

that said, the opportunity presented itself and even guys like me (and plummer himself) have to understand that.

the problem now is the pressure the team will feel to PLAY cutler.

in an ideal world, we could all be happy to have plummer and watch him play for at least the next THREE years while cutler learns.
we could all remember that griese, plummer, and elway ALL agreed that 3 years is the timeframe to fully grasp the offense, and that assumes playing in it.
the problem is that people will want cutler to play THIS year.
if not this year (most reasonable people know thats just not practical), then next year.
now we have ourselves primed and ready for a qb controversy in the organization and amongst its fans.

whats the solution?
i havent a clue.

ill say this though.
if cutler DOES replace plummer in the next few years (im still not sold on the idea) and EARNS the respect as the broncos starter, ill get behind him as ive gotten behind plummer.
sadly, i think he'll face the same fate plummer has.

i look through this forum and see a ton of cutler avatars.
i also remember back to '03 and remember all the people with snake avatars.
when cutler does take over, he'll be under the same microscope, he'll play less than perfect, and of course he'll fail to live up to the ridiculous expectations that elway set.
....and then people will want HIM replaced.
at some point we need to just get back to our roots and support the guy at the helm without the overwhelming expectations.

in a perfect world, plummer can light it up this year and silence the doubters.
in a perfect world, cutler can watch and learn for a FEW years as plummer leads the team to more playoff appearances and hopefully another championship.

unfortunately, its not a perfect world.

here's to hoping. cheers.

jake

Did you decide to do this post in iambic pentameter? I thought I was reading the Iliad after awhile...

[baja]

Why say in 25 words what you can say in 2000.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Why say in 25 words what you can say in 2000.

LOL

That's the MO of Orange 4 Life.

[Orange_Beard]

Like Brady, Plummer has 21 come-from-behind victories late in the game.

Alright, I have heard this stat so many times, how many as a Bronco?
Seems to me 3 years ago when he can he it was like 19. So it many be 1 or 2 whlie here.

BTW, Brady has 3 superbowl rings.

[~Crash~]

So, none of the 33 regular season games he's won for us have been "big," huh? How about the playoff game he won?

Gosh, I guess Jake just forgets how to play football in big games, huh? Nothing to do with opposing defenses, our our defense putting him in 24-35 point ****-holes in the first half of every playoff game.

Oddly, the one playoff game where our defense actually showed up.... we won.

It's so funny. It's the Elway thing all over. Jake isn't as talented, but he's beyond talented enough to win multiple Superbowls for this team. But, he'll never get the chance when our D lays down in the first half of every game.

I agree with 99.9 % of what you say but our O-line let us down against the Steelrs

[orange 4 life]

So, none of the 33 regular season games he's won for us have been "big," huh? How about the playoff game he won?

Gosh, I guess Jake just forgets how to play football in big games, huh? Nothing to do with opposing defenses, our our defense putting him in 24-35 point ****-holes in the first half of every playoff game.

Oddly, the one playoff game where our defense actually showed up.... we won.

It's so funny. It's the Elway thing all over. Jake isn't as talented, but he's beyond talented enough to win multiple Superbowls for this team. But, he'll never get the chance when our D lays down in the first half of every game.

the voice of reason......as usual.

why SO MANY people fail to see this i just dont know.
remember being told it was plummers fault the colts scored 35 first half points?

i dont ignore how valuable the defense has been in the regular season, but that doesnt change how awful theyve been in postseason.
sure, plummer and the offense couldve been better, but our playoff losses (with the possible exception of the pitt game which was a total team meltdown) are squarely on the shoulders of the defense.

[Ballhawk]

He holds the record.

Two people can hold a record.

Heard of Jason Elam?

But, you're right... let's bust his balls because he co-holds some franchise records with Elway.
Fine, wins in a season was a team accomplishment not a QB record, and not one of those wins was Jake carrying the team to victory,

Most TDS in a season. Not even very impressive since it was not even the leagues top 5 for the year.

Im not a stats guys, but most of the records Jake has or shares just do not impress me much. We all know Elway was stunted by Reeves and by the time Shanny got here we had TD and he didn't need to put the ball up as much.

One thing I do believe is that when Jake was down by 14 points I knew that game was over, with Elway I would of thought we have them right where we want them.

So please stop with the records and stats, Jake is what he is a good guy to run the machine, but he does not strike fear into any D cordinator.

[Orange_Beard]

You are killing me with your whining.
Fact is Shanny drafted a QB. He coaches Plummer, watches all the game film, in fact I once heard how they break down every play for the whole year.
He saw the need for a young QB. We had the highest pick we have had in years, so we moved up and grabbed Cutler.

Every draft pick has a "huge downside", less then 50% of these guys make it in the NFL.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So, once again... you can say it, but it doesn't make it true.

And you saying it isn't, doesn't make it true, but what is true is Shanahan has seen what he has in Plummer and drafted Cutler. It's almost a given once we get behind we have lost the game.

[orange 4 life]

We get behind and we're done, it's that simple.

....except for the fact that plummer has more 4th quarter come from behind wins in the last decade than anyone not named favre.

yes, alot of those were in az., but with that God awful team ANY win was impressive.
here, he's had a few opportunities.

cleveland with the pinpoint clutch pass to lelie and a 4th quarter win.

atlanta where he set the record for single game passing yards was a hair away. if watts makes that catch in the endzone its a 6 point game with 6 mins left after trailing by 3 scores because the defense caved in after we tok an early 14-3 lead.

the san diego game was a beautiful comeback lost because of the int in the endzone, which of course was plummers call. most qb's wouldve gave in after that play, but not plummer. he came back again with a minute left and wouldve got us in elams range were it not for another watts drop at the 30.

the raiders snow game was an ARTFUL performance ruined by a missed field goal and a watts drop in the endzone.

the j-ville game was a comeback ended when griffin fumbled.

bottom line is plummer is completely unaffected by pressure, and in fact plays his best under those circumstances.

if watts makes those catches and griffin hangs onto that ball we're talking about how clutch plummer has been in the 4th.
plummer has ALWAYS been a clutch performer. all the way back to college.

dismissing him as an average qb who fails under pressure is blatantly ridiculous.
its common, but its still ridiculous.

[ludo21]

Great post O4L!!

I agree, ive been watching Jake comeback for years!!

The snow game is the only game id disagree with you, Watts would have had to make a pretty remarkable grab to snag that ball.

[orange 4 life]

Why say in 25 words what you can say in 2000.

et tu baja?

thanks alot, 4321~ ;D

im just being me.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

....except for the fact that plummer has more 4th quarter come from behind wins in the last decade than anyone not named favre.
How many as a Bronco?

His last one was in what... 2002?

[orange 4 life]

Great post O4L!!

I agree, ive been watching Jake comeback for years!!

The snow game is the only game id disagree with you, Watts would have had to make a pretty remarkable grab to snag that ball.

i agree thats definately debatable ludo.

from my seat (section 538 on the other side of the field) it looked easy, but on replays it certainly wasnt a given.
that said, it was a PERFECTLY thrown pass and in that situation the receiver needs to make that catch. my guess is rod or lelie wouldve made it 4 out of 5 times.

also, we have to remember that even with watts dropping that pass, we STILL had the field goal attempt that was blocked.
bottom line is plummer played EXCEPTIONALLY well when the chips were down but his receiver and special teams let him down.

[ludo21]

:yep:

Jake is a comeback type QB. Always has been.

[Ballhawk]

....except for the fact that plummer has more 4th quarter come from behind wins in the last decade than anyone not named favre.

yes, alot of those were in az., but with that God awful team ANY win was impressive.
here, he's had a few opportunities.

cleveland with the pinpoint clutch pass to lelie and a 4th quarter win.

That was his best clutch moment with us in a must win

atlanta where he set the record for single game passing yards was a hair away. if watts makes that catch in the endzone its a 6 point game with 6 mins left after trailing by 3 scores because the defense caved in after we tok an early 14-3 lead.

Leading 14-3 3 and out gives the ball to Atl at the Denver 40, Leading 14-10 at the atl 36 throws an INT, trailing 17-14 throws an INT at atl 44, Down 34-21 at atl 36 throws INT returned for a TD. Lets not pretend this was his finest game as his ints ealry blew the lead.

the san diego game was a beautiful comeback lost because of the int in the endzone, which of course was plummers call. most qb's wouldve gave in after that play, but not plummer. he came back again with a minute left and wouldve got us in elams range were it not for another watts drop at the 30.

Please tell me that you are nottalking about his 4 int day, once again the D played great that game.

the raiders snow game was an ARTFUL performance ruined by a missed field goal and a watts drop in the endzone.

We had the lead 24-13, aided by a Defensive TD. This was not a Jake comeback but a collins one

the j-ville game was a comeback ended when griffin fumbled.

LOL comeback, the score was 7-6...I think our D played a hell of a game that day giving up only 8 first downs.

bottom line is plummer is completely unaffected by pressure, and in fact plays his best under those circumstances.

if watts makes those catches and griffin hangs onto that ball we're talking about how clutch plummer has been in the 4th.
plummer has ALWAYS been a clutch performer. all the way back to college.

dismissing him as an average qb who fails under pressure is blatantly ridiculous.
its common, but its still ridiculous.

If this is a tally of how Jake is clutch under pressure it is pretty thin. I love Jake as our QB, but when we fall behind, no he is not the guy I want back there.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

:yep:

Jake is a comeback type QB. Always has been.
How do you figure?

[Kaylore]

How do you figure?
Because statistically he's one of the top quarterbacks in the league for number of fourth quarter come backs. He's led by Manning and someone else.

[Ballhawk]

Because statistically he's one of the top quarterbacks in the league for number of fourth quarter come backs. He's led by Manning and someone else.

I have never been a big fan of this stat as it means you are losing late quite often. I much prefer last years leading games going into the 4th qrt. Worked well except against the NYG.

[ludo21]

I have never been a big fan of this stat as it means you are losing late quite often. I much prefer last years leading games going into the 4th qrt. Worked well except against the NYG.


Doesnt take away the fact that he came back tho.

[Kaylore]

I have never been a big fan of this stat as it means you are losing late quite often. I think it is very telling because a good quarterback should be able to win you the game when he's under preasure. I will now point out that Elway owns the stat for most fourth quarter come-backs ever. He wons o many that teams up two scores would get nervous and even believe that they were going to lose when Elway took the field with three to four minutes left in a game. They knew he was going to do it and felt powerless to stop him.

[Taco John]

remember being told it was plummers fault the colts scored 35 first half points?




It's impossible, in the NFL, for a team to score 35 points in a half unless their opponent is doing these three things:

1) turning the ball over multiple times
2) failing to sustain drives, and thus burn time off the clock
3) failing to score

[Kaylore]

It's impossible, in the NFL, for a team to score 35 points in a half unless their opponent is doing these three things:

1) turning the ball over multiple times
2) failing to sustain drives, and thus burn time off the clock
3) failing to score Or maybe your defense is just exposed. This is where I think your Plummer criticism goes from plausible to ridiculous. You blame him for everything that went wrong in those games. Lenny Walls and Kelly Herndon as starting corners? Mario Fatafehi starting on the D-line? We got beat on all sides of the ball. It's not Plummer's fault we couldn't run the ball. It's not Plummer's fault that players were dropping the ball, it's not plummer's fault that we had an undrafted rookie corner who won't make the team this year covering their number three.

I can see why someone would say that Plummer can't take us to and win a Super Bowl (though I'd disagree), but the Colts just kicked our ass those games and the degree to which they did it was more than any one player could and should be blamed for.

[Ballhawk]

I think it is very telling because a good quarterback should be able to win you the game when he's under preasure. I will now point out that Elway owns the stat for most fourth quarter come-backs ever. He wons o many that teams up two scores would get nervous and even believe that they were going to lose when Elway took the field with three to four minutes left in a game. They knew he was going to do it and felt powerless to stop him.
Yes but comback victories are counted even if down by 1 pt. Can you honestly say that any team fears what Jake will do when down 10 points in the 4th? He compiled many "comeback" victories in AZ but very few were done with his team trailing by more than 7 pts in the 4th.

Like I said I love Jake, but he does not ahave the arm or accuarcy to beat teams that know he is going to throw the ball. Elway could make throws that the D didn't even think was possible. How many times have we heard a LB say about Elway passes, I saw the throw but couldn't even react because it was thrown too hard? Jake is a finese type QB where his best plays come off of playaction or quick hits based on coverage. Take away playaction and he suffers badly.

[ludo21]

I thought Jake played pretty fantastic last year when he dropped back in the pocket.

For some reason, i dont think a QB can make a full comeback vry well when the OL gives him 1-2 seconds to throw.

[Kaylore]

Yes but comback victories are counted even if down by 1 pt. Can you honestly say that any team fears what Jake will do when down 10 points in the 4th? He compiled many "comeback" victories in AZ but very few were done with his team trailing by more than 7 pts in the 4th.

Like I said I love Jake, but he does not ahave the arm or accuarcy to beat teams that know he is going to throw the ball. Elway could make throws that the D didn't even think was possible. How many times have we heard a LB say about Elway passes, I saw the throw but couldn't even react because it was thrown too hard? Jake is a finese type QB where his best plays come off of playaction or quick hits based on coverage. Take away playaction and he suffers badly.
I agree that he works best in play action. There is tons of evidence to support this. The amount of the deficit matters some, but the point is that he's one of the quarterbacks that if you put the game in his hands in the fourth quarter to win it, and it's close, he'll come through.

[Ballhawk]

I agree that he works best in play action. There is tons of evidence to support this. The amount of the deficit matters some, but the point is that he's one of the quarterbacks that if you put the game in his hands in the fourth quarter to win it, and it's close, he'll come through.

I agree. Im not calling him a choker. As long as the other team has to respect the run he is a very efficient QB. He just does not have the skill set to carry a team passing the ball. This is not a knock on him, an attack, or a call for his job just what I have observed.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Because statistically he's one of the top quarterbacks in the league for number of fourth quarter come backs. He's led by Manning and someone else.
He hasn't one of those since 2002 so I don't even see him as a comeback QB, do you?

[Ballhawk]

He hasn't one of those since 2002 so I don't even see him as a comeback QB, do you?

He lead a comeback win against Clev in 2003.

[Kaylore]

He hasn't one of those since 2002 so I don't even see him as a comeback QB, do you?
That's not true. Ther were quite a few in '04 when we played some close games. Some he put us in position to win and crap happened that wasn't his fault like Elam missing the kick or Quentin fumbling the ball at the last minute. Yes, I see him as a fourth quarter quarterback if the game is close. Not if more than one score is needed.

[Popps]

He hasn't one of those since 2002 so I don't even see him as a comeback QB, do you?

When you win 33 games over 3 years, you don't have to make a lot of comebacks.

He's 6 shy of the franchise mark over a 3 year span, and has significantly less talent than Elway had around him.

Let me ask you a question.... what do you think Plummer would do with Smith, Eddie Mac, Sharpe, Terrell Davis and one the best O-line in Bronco history? Not to mention, a defense that actually shows up in the playoffs?

Hmmm.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

That's not true. Ther were quite a few in '04 when we played some close games. Some he put us in position to win and crap happened that wasn't his fault like Elam missing the kick or Quentin fumbling the ball at the last minute. Yes, I see him as a fourth quarter quarterback if the game is close. Not if more than one score is needed.
It's absolutely true.

[Ballhawk]

When you win 33 games over 3 years, you don't have to make a lot of comebacks.

He's 6 shy of the franchise mark over a 3 year span, and has significantly less talent than Elway had around him.

Let me ask you a question.... what do you think Plummer would do with Smith, Eddie Mac, Sharpe, Terrell Davis and one the best O-line in Bronco history? Not to mention, a defense that actually shows up in the playoffs?

Hmmm.

He would do exactly what he has done, manage the O. Or do you somehow envision Payton type Numbers? Our Oline has not been bad, he did play with CP, Sharpe, and Rod in 2003 and even tho the D got owned Jake put up 3 points until a gimme TD in the 4th.

Yes our D played horrible both times at Indy, but that doesnt explain away the offensive gooseggs.

[youcandoit1687]

I didn't bother to read this whole thread...not at 3:00 am...but just to respond to this; BUNK! It doens't take 3 years of toting a clipboard to learn this offense. Shanahan said that Griese knew it as well as he did in his 2nd year after playing clipboard caddy to Elway for one year. Plummer got it right in his 2nd year also. I'm tired of people talking about this offense like it's cold fusion or something. It's a freaking football game. Do you think all these guys are Mensa candidates or something? No way does Cutler sit for 3 years...2 at the most...and I'll bet he gets a shot in his 2nd year...if not some time under center in his rookie year during a blowout. I would not be shocked if he started sometime this year.

I don't have overwhelming expectations of Jake. I think he's done a good job with what he has to work with, and deserves major props for improving his game. But let's quit acting like Jake doesn't come with some problems that make it tough to overlook his shortcomings as well. Jake just flat doesn't have that great an arm and he's never going to be more than a barely average drop back passer who is much better on the run. He can't lead a receiver like Lelie on a deep route. Corners know that so they're not going to respect that deep speed by playing off and giving the underneath because they know if Jake goes deep they get an extra couple of steps to catch up. I don't expect Jake to be John, or Cutler either. Jake can keep his job as long as he wants it. All he has to do is prove he can take this team all the way to the trophy. Maybe he can...but I'm not convinced that he's not just a pretty good QB who is destined to be Elway's version of Danny White.

One way or the other...you're right about this; the pressure's on Jake to step up.

learning to play QB for any offense college and above is extremely difficult. Have you ever played football and to waht levels? to fully succeed in the offense, you have to:

1. memorize plays
2. read defenses at the line
3. make pre-snap decisions(who will be the best choice)
4. decide whether a blitz is coming and what protection to call
5. make in-play reads, safety bites run fake, watch curl-to-flat man, etc. etc.
6. predict where receiver will be
7. place ball away from safety or CB in ideal place for receiver
8. deliver ball with 6 4 225 lb men's arms in front of you
9. taking the hit the right way so as not to get hurt

also: footwork, different handoffs, scramble plays(receivers run certain routes, rb scats, etc.), pocket presence, bootlegs, playactions, etc. etc.
theres a lot of thigns i havent thot of but its not like jumping into a flag football game and just throwing the ball in the middle of a few of your receivers and hoping they adjust

[Popps]

Yes our D played horrible both times at Indy, but that doesnt explain away the offensive gooseggs.

Of course it does. Or maybe you didn't catch Elway's 55-10, 42-10 Superbowl losses.

When you're in a throw-only hole in the first half against a real playoff caliber defense, you're ****ed.

Why do you think teams never come back from 21 points or more in the playoffs? It's simple math. D trumps O come playoff time.

[Orange_Beard]

....except for the fact that plummer has more 4th quarter come from behind wins in the last decade than anyone not named favre.
yes, alot of those were in az., but with that God awful team ANY win was impressive.
here, he's had a few opportunities.

Alot in AZ, try 90%.

When was the last one in Denver?

2 of the 3 losses last year were 4 quater losses.

[Orange_Beard]

He lead a comeback win against Clev in 2003.

Wow, he lead 1 come back 2 years ago. Impressive.

[Popps]

Wow, he lead 1 come back 2 years ago. Impressive.

I remember when reporters used to ask Elway about if he was proud of his comebacks. He just kind of laughed and said, not really... it meant we were behind too often.

Point being, if you want to judge a quarterback by his comebacks... feel free. Jake has as many as Tom Brady in his career.

He's just been efficient enough in Denver to win 33 games over 3 years, negating the need for a lot of comebacks.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Alot in AZ, try 90%.
When was the last one in Denver?
2 of the 3 losses last year were 4 quater losses. His last one was in 2002 if he has 21 as has been said here, NONE as a Bronco...

A second-round pick by the Cardinals in 1997, Plummer was spectacular in his second season, defeating the Cowboys in a wild-card game to give the franchise its first postseason victory in 51 years. From then on his Arizona experience was mostly miserable: four consecutive losing seasons, including one in which Plummer threw 24 interceptions and only nine TDs.

Plummer's scrambling ability and penchant for comebacks -- in six seasons he directed 21 game-winning drives in the fourth quarter or overtime http://tinyurl.com/pealw

[Popps]

His last one was in 2002 if he has 21 as has been said here, NONE as a Bronco...

http://tinyurl.com/pealw

-.750 winning percentage

-2-1 TD/INT ratio

-Multiple franchise passing records

-33 wins over 3 seaons

-2005 Pro Bowl Selection


But..... he doesn't have enough comebacks between 2002-2005, so.. let's bust his balls.

You know, that's a very logical, rational way to break things down. It's like someone giving you a million dollars and you complaining about it because it's in small bills.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Jake's 4th quarter rating:

2005 - 71.5, 54.8 completion %

2004 - 81.7, 56.1 completion %

2003 - 39.7, 56.6 completion %

[Popps]

Jake's 4th quarter rating:

2005 - 71.5, 54.8 completion %

2004 - 81.7, 56.1 completion %

2003 - 39.7, 56.6 completion %

You fit right in with the Bronco fans around here. Keep digging for obscure, secondary stats to try to support your false premise.

[baja]

et tu baja?

thanks alot, 4321~ ;D

im just being me.

Just a joke don't be too serious althought serious is sometimes a good thing yet being too serious can cause one to worry and worry in never a good thing unless of course worry causes you to act in a positive way although positive is sometimes unrealistic....

I love ta Jake relax I'll bring you a plummer hat when we meet. ;D

[Bob's your Information Minister]

You fit right in with the Bronco fans around here. Keep digging for obscure, secondary stats to try to support your false premise.

False premise?

Jake didn't throw a single touchdown pass in the fourth quarter in 2002.

He RULES!

[Bob's your Information Minister]

As an aside, did you Donk fans know his full name is Jason Steve Plummer?

I find that hilarious.

[Orange_Beard]

I remember when reporters used to ask Elway about if he was proud of his comebacks. He just kind of laughed and said, not really... it meant we were behind too often.

Point being, if you want to judge a quarterback by his comebacks... feel free. Jake has as many as Tom Brady in his career.

He's just been efficient enough in Denver to win 33 games over 3 years, negating the need for a lot of comebacks.

Hold on, I did not bring up the comebacks. It was raised as a plus for Plummer, by one of you pro-Plummer guys.

[Clockwork Orange]

False premise?

Jake didn't throw a single touchdown pass in the fourth quarter in 2002.

He RULES!

TrINT hasn't thrown a playoff TD since 2003. :laugh:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

TrINT hasn't thrown a playoff TD since 2003. :laugh:

Well, this thread has certainly arrived now. No Jake Plummer thread is truly complete without bringing up Trent Green.

[Clockwork Orange]

Well, this thread has certainly arrived now. No Jake Plummer thread is truly complete without bringing up Trent Green.

If you're gonna point out obscure, meaningless things about Plummer, turnabout is fair play.

It's just funny to watch you get a case of the red ass whenever someone dares to point out anything about TrINT.

[Arkansas Bronco]

Well one true fact is that Plummer is better then greaseball so it was a step up.
As for his comebacks well I get nervous when it is a close game and the ball is in his hands no matter how well he did in Zona.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

If you're gonna point out obscure, meaningless things about Plummer, turnabout is fair play.


Nah, not really. QB rating in the fourth quarter is pretty important.

[Clockwork Orange]

Nah, not really. QB rating in the fourth quarter is pretty important.

To you and you only.

Keep reaching though, it's good for a chuckle. Your obssession with Plummer is almost as funny as your hard on for TrINT.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

-.750 winning percentage

-2-1 TD/INT ratio

-Multiple franchise passing records

-33 wins over 3 seaons

-2005 Pro Bowl Selection


But..... he doesn't have enough comebacks between 2002-2005, so.. let's bust his balls.

You know, that's a very logical, rational way to break things down. It's like someone giving you a million dollars and you complaining about it because it's in small bills.

My original point was I don't feel real good about having Plummer trying to win games from behind, nothing more than he's a serviceable QB. If you can find some stat to show I'm wrong, bring it on.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

To you and you only.



Heh, OK. I guess you are comfortable with it. It's not a good sign. Spin away.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

My original point was I don't feel real good about having Plummer trying to win games from behind,

Jake's QB rating when trailing:

2005 - 71.9, 54.6 completion %

2004 - 72.6, 55.5 completion %

2003 - 100.6, 58.6 completon %

[Orange_Beard]

-.750 winning percentage

-2-1 TD/INT ratio

-Multiple franchise passing records

-33 wins over 3 seaons

-2005 Pro Bowl Selection


But..... he doesn't have enough comebacks between 2002-2005, so.. let's bust his balls.

You know, that's a very logical, rational way to break things down. It's like someone giving you a million dollars and you complaining about it because it's in small bills.
I love how he gets credit for 33 wins, but when we get spanked in the play-offs it is everyone elses fault. Not the guy with 4 turnovers.

[Clockwork Orange]

Jake's QB rating when trailing:

2005 - 71.9, 54.6 completion %

2004 - 72.6, 55.5 completion %

2003 - 100.6, 58.6 completon %

It's funny, you claim to have such a hate on for Plummer, but you spend a large portion of your time thinking about him (and digging up stats on him). Nice to see how far under your skin he is. :laugh:

[Clockwork Orange]

Heh, OK. I guess you are comfortable with it. It's not a good sign. Spin away.

I'm comfortable having a QB who can get us to the playoffs and maybe even win a game once we get there.

I know, that's a foreign concept to you. Enjoy your stats, geek.

[Popps]

I love how he gets credit for 33 wins, but when we get spanked in the play-offs it is everyone elses fault. Not the guy with 4 turnovers.

Yea, it's weird when people look at things on a case by case basis and use context, isn't it?

[Rock Chalk]

I love how he gets credit for 33 wins, but when we get spanked in the play-offs it is everyone elses fault. Not the guy with 4 turnovers.
No one said Jake wasnt to blame in the playoff losses.

Most Plummer supporters just say he isnt the only reason we lost.

Having a defense give up over 40 points in every single defeat doesnt help things. Oh yeah, 20 or so points came on Plummer turnovers, sure. What about the other 20 or so points?

DEFENSES CANNOT GIVE UP 20+ POINTS IN THE PLAYOFFS AND THE TEAM EXPECT TO WIN!

The further you go into the playoffs, the fewer points you can allow because its going to be harder for you to score points.

Logic.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I'm comfortable having a QB who can get us to the playoffs and maybe even win a game once we get there.

I know, that's a foreign concept to you. Enjoy your stats, geek.

Trent Green is more than capable of those things. Unfortunately he's not a God Emperor who's capable of overcoming horrible defense.

[Orange_Beard]

Yea, it's weird when people look at things on a case by case basis and use context, isn't it?


When you develop that skill PM me.

You are "lumping" all 33 wins for Plummer, not me. It ain't all or nothing for me, it appears to be that way for you.

[Lidderer]

DEFENSES CANNOT GIVE UP 20+ POINTS IN THE PLAYOFFS AND THE TEAM EXPECT TO WIN!

The further you go into the playoffs, the fewer points you can allow because its going to be harder for you to score points.

Logic.

Exactly. Only 1 team has won a playoff game in the past 3 years while giving up more than 27 points, and that was Indy vs. KC.

I'll hang 10 on Jake, tops, in the pitt game, and that still leaves them at 24, which, again, only Indy has given up in the past 3 years and won(v Denver).

[Popps]

Hold on, I did not bring up the comebacks. It was raised as a plus for Plummer, by one of you pro-Plummer guys.

Wow, "one of you Plummer guys."

Yea, one of us weirdos who backs a winning quarterback. Strange, huh?
Sorry, should I be bashing him and putting a kid who's never thrown an NFL pass in my Avtar like the anti-Plummer community?

For the record, I didn't bring it up. I think the comeback thing is somewhat overrated. Like I said, Elway would be the first to tell you that he put himself in a lot of those holes, as well as having a team around him that was sub-par. If you have to come back too often, you've got problems. You don't build a team to give up 30 points in the first half of a playoff game and then come back. Doesn't work that way.

I'll take wins. Jake has won at an insane clip with considerably less talent around him than the last team we saw go to an AFC Championship Game in Denver.

Get a defense that doesn't lay down like like a cheap whore in the first half of every playoff game, and you'll likely see a much different Jake Plummer.

Again, it's no coincidence that the one playoff game that our defense decided to play.... we won, and even with a marginal offensive performance in the first half.

That's playoff football.

[Popps]

When you develop that skill PM me.

You are "lumping" all 33 wins for Plummer, not me. It ain't all or nothing for me, it appears to be that way for you.

So, he doesn't deserve credit for the wins?

Do you even know what you're saying, or are you just typing to be contrary?

[Orange_Beard]

No one said Jake wasnt to blame in the playoff losses.

Most Plummer supporters just say he isnt the only reason we lost.

Having a defense give up over 40 points in every single defeat doesnt help things. Oh yeah, 20 or so points came on Plummer turnovers, sure. What about the other 20 or so points?

DEFENSES CANNOT GIVE UP 20+ POINTS IN THE PLAYOFFS AND THE TEAM EXPECT TO WIN!

The further you go into the playoffs, the fewer points you can allow because its going to be harder for you to score points.

Logic.

I agree he is not the only reason we lost, no question.
In the Colts games, we were playing the team with the WORST D in the NFL. Not a crappy D, the WORST D.
Everyone and his mother knows the way to beat them is to control the ball with your offense, the Jake lead offense was really bad.

I agree you can't give up 40 and expect to win, however you need to SCORE points on a team that has such a crappy D, lots of point. True the Broncos scored some points in those Colts games, However the games were already over.

[Popps]

When you develop that skill PM me.


John Elway threw multiple picks in our Superbowl losses.

He must suck, right?

I mean, no matter what he did in the regular season or the playoffs leading up to that, if he threw picks... that's why we lost, right?

That's what you're inferring.

Or, should we look at those games a little more closely with some context?

Hmmm.

[Rock Chalk]

I agree he is not the only reason we lost, no question.
In the Colts games, we were playing the team with the WORST D in the NFL. Not a crappy D, the WORST D.
Everyone and his mother knows the way to beat them is to control the ball with your offense, the Jake lead offense was really bad.

I agree you can't give up 40 and expect to win, however you need to SCORE points on a team that has such a crappy D, lots of point. True the Broncos scored some points in those Colts games, However the games were already over.
Crappy D or not, any D looks good when they know that the play is pass since their offense put them up by 35 ****ing points.

Kinda hard to march down the field even against a crappy D when they know you are going to pass and they know that the only real threat in the passing game is Rod Smith.

[Popps]

True the Broncos scored some points in those Colts games, However the games were already over.

Now you're catching on.

Spread the word.

[Orange_Beard]

So, he doesn't deserve credit for the wins?

Do you even know what you're saying, or are you just typing to be contrary?

Not all of them.

Did he "win" the SD game last year? I would say Champ had a bigger role then Plummer.

Cowboys game, the D and Dayne had better games.

Did Jake have some great games last year, hell yes.

[Popps]

Crappy D or not, any D looks good when they know that the play is pass since their offense put them up by 35 ****ing points.

Kinda hard to march down the field even against a crappy D when they know you are going to pass and they know that the only real threat in the passing game is Rod Smith.

No, dude... even though the opposing defense knows we're throwing on every down, Jake should have a 200 passer rating.

[Orange_Beard]

Crappy D or not, any D looks good when they know that the play is pass since their offense put them up by 35 ****ing points.

Kinda hard to march down the field even against a crappy D when they know you are going to pass and they know that the only real threat in the passing game is Rod Smith.

I disagee, early in the game our O did nothing. 3 and out.
The Colts stuffed the run and the passing came was crap, total crap.

[Popps]

Not all of them.

Did he "win" the SD game last year? I would say Champ had a bigger role then Plummer.

Cowboys game, the D and Dayne had better games.

Did Jake have some great games last year, hell yes.

So, kind of like any good team?

[Orange_Beard]

No, dude... even though the opposing defense knows we're throwing on every down, Jake should have a 200 passer rating.

Yeah, Jake looks really good against the prevent defense, he really tears it up.

[Popps]

I disagee, early in the game our O did nothing. 3 and out.
The Colts stuffed the run and the passing came was crap, total crap.

Welcome to playoff football.

Offenses regularly get shut down for the first couple of quarters.

The trick is not to give up 35 points in the meanwhile.

[Orange_Beard]

So, kind of like any good team?

Dude, you are the one who busted out "33 wins", not me.
I am saying it is a team game, you are saying "Jake has 33 wins"

[Orange_Beard]

Welcome to playoff football.

Offenses regularly get shut down for the first couple of quarters.

The trick is not to give up 35 points in the meanwhile.

Silly. If the Colts can score 35 on us and we score nothing on them, a team with the worst D in the league your just going to come out and say "Oh, well thats just the way it is"- I could not disagree more.

If anything were "should" have beenble to trade TD's with the Colts. Just based on there crappy D.

[broncoback]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">Plummer's deep ball is a sober duck waiting to be snatched by opposing secondaries. Cutler's deep ball is a tight, powerful spiral with accuracy. Besides, Cutler has the potential and it's not every draft that a team has an opportunity to draft a top rated QB. Time to retool and start with Cutler. He probably won't start right away but Elway, Bradshaw and Montana have all stressed the importance of being thrown into the fire right away. Learning on the spot is most important if the rookie QB's confidence doesn't get shattered. Cutler was practically the only playmaker when he came from College and took some major lumps, so I don't think confidence will be an issue. The main question is whether the Broncos are going to live and die with Plummer this year in hopes of making it to the Superbowl or start Cutler right away and let him take his lumps. IMO, why not an open training camp battle.</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Lidderer]

however you need to SCORE points on a team that has such a crappy D, lots of point.

This point puzzles me to no end. Are you suggesting that a player 'try harder' if his D is bad? Doesn't this suppose that NFL players are lax in playoff games to an extent, or at least play at a level of, um, effort that is reliant on their D/O?

Does that strike you as a bit strange and just completely silly?

Wouldn't this also suggest that a coach could be labelled a great QB motivator if he decided to, say, sign Dale Carter to a starting job?

THE GROOMING OF TRENT GREEN:
3. Intense playbook studying
2. Practice, practice, practice
1. Re-signing of Eric Warfield

[Bob's your Information Minister]

THE GROOMING OF TRENT GREEN:
3. Intense playbook studying
2. Practice, practice, practice
1. Re-signing of Eric Warfield

LOL

Don't know why that made me laugh, but it did.

[Lidderer]

I disagee, early in the game our O did nothing. 3 and out.
The Colts stuffed the run and the passing came was crap, total crap.

DRIVE 1:
1-15-PIT15 (12:09) W.Parker up the middle to PIT 15 for no gain (L.Hill).
2-15-PIT15 (11:35) B.Roethlisberger pass to W.Parker to PIT 16 for 1 yard (R.Bernard).
3-19-PIT11 (10:32) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger left tackle to PIT 21 for 10 yards (L.Tatupu).
4-9-PIT21 (9:49) C.Gardocki punts 41 yards to SEA 38, Center-G.Warren. P.Warrick to SEA 36 for -2 yards (J.Harrison).
Seattle Seahawks at 09:39

DRIVE 2:
1-10-PIT20 (5:39) W.Parker left end to PIT 20 for no gain (M.Trufant).
2-10-PIT20 (5:02) W.Parker left end to PIT 26 for 6 yards (L.Hill).
3-4-PIT26 (4:20) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward.
4-4-PIT26 (4:14) C.Gardocki punts 37 yards to SEA 37, Center-G.Warren. P.Warrick to SEA 49 for 12 yards (J.Harrison; C.Kriewaldt).

DRIVE 3:
1-10-PIT20 (:17) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to C.Wilson.
2-10-PIT20 (:09) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward (J.Babineaux).
3-10-PIT20 (:06) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to N.Washington.
Second Quarter
Pittsburgh Steelers continued...
4-10-PIT20 (15:00) C.Gardocki punts 60 yards to SEA 20, Center-G.Warren. P.Warrick to PIT 46 for 34 yards (C.Iwuoma).
PENALTY on SEA-E.Pruitt, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at SEA 35.

DRIVE 4:
1-10-PIT20 (12:13) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward.
2-10-PIT20 (12:07) J.Bettis left end to PIT 22 for 2 yards (M.Tubbs).
3-8-PIT22 (11:25) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass to A.Randle El to PIT 30 for 8 yards (L.Tatupu).
1-10-PIT30 (10:44) H.Ward left end pushed ob at PIT 48 for 18 yards (M.Manuel).SEA-M.Manuel was injured during the play. He is Out. Play was an end around.
1-10-PIT48 (10:19) B.Roethlisberger pass intended for A.Randle El INTERCEPTED by M.Boulware at SEA 17. M.Boulware to SEA 17 for no gain (A.Randle El).

[Orange_Beard]

This point puzzles me to no end. Are you suggesting that a player 'try harder' if his D is bad? Doesn't this suppose that NFL players are lax in playoff games to an extent, or at least play at a level of, um, effort that is reliant on their D/O?

Does that strike you as a bit strange and just completely silly?


No, I am not suggesting that a player 'try harder' if his D is bad, not really sure where you got this.
What I am saying is that we had a huge advantage over the Colts in our "O vs. there D."
And Our O did not get it done. Did anyone believe that our D would not give up points? Not me.
I new we would but I though our O would keep it close.

[Lidderer]

No, I am not suggesting that a player 'try harder' if his D is bad, not really sure where you got this.
What I am saying is that we had a huge advantage over the Colts in our "O vs. there D."
And Our O did not get it done. Did anyone believe that our D would not give up points? Not me.
I new we would but I though our O would keep it close.

Oh my mistake, I thought you were suggesting since we had a bad D(at least on that day, and the colts games) we had to score more points, which believe it or not is a trope that was thrown out here during the colts debacles.

I see what you're saying now, although obviously it doesn't apply to our game vs a good defensive steelers team.

let me also add that the Indy D of 03/04 was highly undervalued, especially when dealing in 3rd down situations, but this has been documented already in threads of yore.

[Orange_Beard]

DRIVE 1:
1-15-PIT15 (12:09) W.Parker up the middle to PIT 15 for no gain (L.Hill).
2-15-PIT15 (11:35) B.Roethlisberger pass to W.Parker to PIT 16 for 1 yard (R.Bernard).
3-19-PIT11 (10:32) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger left tackle to PIT 21 for 10 yards (L.Tatupu).
4-9-PIT21 (9:49) C.Gardocki punts 41 yards to SEA 38, Center-G.Warren. P.Warrick to SEA 36 for -2 yards (J.Harrison).
Seattle Seahawks at 09:39

DRIVE 2:
1-10-PIT20 (5:39) W.Parker left end to PIT 20 for no gain (M.Trufant).
2-10-PIT20 (5:02) W.Parker left end to PIT 26 for 6 yards (L.Hill).
3-4-PIT26 (4:20) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward.
4-4-PIT26 (4:14) C.Gardocki punts 37 yards to SEA 37, Center-G.Warren. P.Warrick to SEA 49 for 12 yards (J.Harrison; C.Kriewaldt).

DRIVE 3:
1-10-PIT20 (:17) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to C.Wilson.
2-10-PIT20 (:09) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward (J.Babineaux).
3-10-PIT20 (:06) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to N.Washington.
Second Quarter
Pittsburgh Steelers continued...
4-10-PIT20 (15:00) C.Gardocki punts 60 yards to SEA 20, Center-G.Warren. P.Warrick to PIT 46 for 34 yards (C.Iwuoma).
PENALTY on SEA-E.Pruitt, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at SEA 35.

DRIVE 4:
1-10-PIT20 (12:13) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward.
2-10-PIT20 (12:07) J.Bettis left end to PIT 22 for 2 yards (M.Tubbs).
3-8-PIT22 (11:25) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass to A.Randle El to PIT 30 for 8 yards (L.Tatupu).
1-10-PIT30 (10:44) H.Ward left end pushed ob at PIT 48 for 18 yards (M.Manuel).SEA-M.Manuel was injured during the play. He is Out. Play was an end around.
1-10-PIT48 (10:19) B.Roethlisberger pass intended for A.Randle El INTERCEPTED by M.Boulware at SEA 17. M.Boulware to SEA 17 for no gain (A.Randle El).

What does this have to do with the Colts/Broncos?
Is there a point to this?

[Lidderer]

What does this have to do with the Colts/Broncos?
Is there a point to this?

I can't do all the work for you, just like Jake can't for denver.

[Orange_Beard]

Oh my mistake, I thought you were suggesting since we had a bad D(at least on that day, and the colts games) we had to score more points, which believe it or not is a trope that was thrown out here during the colts debacles.

I see what you're saying now, although obviously it doesn't apply to our game vs a good defensive steelers team.

let me also add that the Indy D of 03/04 was highly undervalued, especially when dealing in 3rd down situations, but this has been documented already in threads of yore.

Sorry I missed your last post.

[Orange_Beard]

I can't do all the work for you, just like Jake can't for denver.

Sorry, I missed your last post.

I am still hot about the Steelers game. I get pissed when I hear, it was the D's fault not Plummer.
Plummer had 4 F-ing turn overs. 4!

[Lidderer]

Sorry, I missed your last post.

I am still hot about the Steelers game. I get pissed when I hear, it was the D's fault not Plummer.
Plummer had 4 F-ing turn overs. 4!

Pitt was 10-16 on 3rd downs(many over 6 yards too, which is nuts).

You know the last team to lose a game with that high of a 3rd down percentage?

The 1942 Saskatchewan RoughRiders

[riiiiick]

Cutler has to earn the job. He wont do it this year, maybe next year.

But the fact is, he will have to EARN IT, an beat out Jake. So when that happens, we will be sure that we are getting a better QB than Jake at the time.

And to me, thats pretty darn good.

there are only 3 or 4 guys better than plummer in the league today and maybe NONE could run this offense better than him. if cutler can beat that, he should play. that's a big IF.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

there are only 3 or 4 guys better than plummer in the league today

Drugs?

[riiiiick]

Drugs?

gave them up. who can run it better?

[Orange_Beard]

Pitt was 10-16 on 3rd downs(many over 6 yards too, which is nuts).

You know the last team to lose a game with that high of a 3rd down percentage?

The 1942 Saskatchewan RoughRiders

I agree. The D sucked on third down. I was in shock watching what the Steelers did.

4 turnovers did not help. 4 F-ing turn overs.

Giving the ball back to a hot O 4 times.

[Orange_Beard]

there are only 3 or 4 guys better than plummer in the league today and maybe NONE could run this offense better than him. if cutler can beat that, he should play. that's a big IF.


He could be in the top 3 or 4 back-up QB's.

[Lidderer]

Giving the ball back to a hot O 4 times.

or relying on a cold D; either way: this raises the point I mistakenly thought you brought out earlier.

At any rate, we both seem to agree it was a poor effort by everyone on the team.

[Popps]

I agree. The D sucked on third down. I was in shock watching what the Steelers did.

4 turnovers did not help. 4 F-ing turn overs.

Giving the ball back to a hot O 4 times.

The backbreaker was a forced fumble. It was the result of a swarming front seven. Jake was under duress all afternoon, but that forced fumble gave Pitt the ball again, and naturally... our defense laid down again.

Jake didn't make his first bad throw until the end of the first half, when we had already abandoned the run, dug ourselves a hole by playing no defense, and were in pass-only mode.

[riiiiick]

He could be in the top 3 or 4 back-up QB's.

who has more wins in last 39 games?

[orange 4 life]

If this is a tally of how Jake is clutch under pressure it is pretty thin. I love Jake as our QB, but when we fall behind, no he is not the guy I want back there.

i wont get into the whole debate ballhawk.

i stopped right after the first point.

if you actually blame jake for "blowing" the atlanta lead, then you need to join tacos club.
the defense was a friggin SIEVE in that game and it was pathetic to watch.
whether they got it at our 40 or their 1 we couldnt stop them. hell, we couldnt even really slow them down.

[youcandoit1687]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">Plummer's deep ball is a sober duck waiting to be snatched by opposing secondaries. Cutler's deep ball is a tight, powerful spiral with accuracy. Besides, Cutler has the potential and it's not every draft that a team has an opportunity to draft a top rated QB. Time to retool and start with Cutler. He probably won't start right away but Elway, Bradshaw and Montana have all stressed the importance of being thrown into the fire right away. Learning on the spot is most important if the rookie QB's confidence doesn't get shattered. Cutler was practically the only playmaker when he came from College and took some major lumps, so I don't think confidence will be an issue. The main question is whether the Broncos are going to live and die with Plummer this year in hopes of making it to the Superbowl or start Cutler right away and let him take his lumps. IMO, why not an open training camp battle.</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


open training camp battle?! open training camp battle!? ur talking about a rookie QUARTERBACK man, cmon, training camp!?

cmon dude, im not gonna bash u on ur 45th post but QBs dont start in training camp(david carr might have? - unique situation). im afraid that if u really believe what u just sed, then u are very misunderstood on the concepts of quarterbacking in the NFL. offenses are very, very complicated and the defenses are just as complicated. i posted earlier on i think page 5 about all the things that QBs must do to make it in the NFL. if a QB gets to start in his first year at all, there is a 90% chance that he has little or no success. the 10% is dan marino and ben roethlisberger with the occasional successes. prob more like 95% to 5%






steelers game...if my memory serves me, the fumbles were blindside blitzes while the two interceptions i would legitimately blame jake for with the overthrow of jeb and the bad throw to watts(?). the steelers/seahawks game post showed that a good defense can hold the other team off while the O gets adjusted.

the elway/plummer debate...elway was the better QB in nearly ever facet of the game from comebacks to clutch moments to deep passes.
jake is a top 12 QB in this league, 16 if ur a pessimist.(remember this is all non stats really). jake is a very good QB for us, but will never be our franchise QB like cutler CAN BE. his potential has been tapped really. winning playoff games are a team effort and even elway would tell u that(previous SBs). having jake allows us to make the playoffs and perform as a team to advance.

[youcandoit1687]

there are only 3 or 4 guys better than plummer in the league today and maybe NONE could run this offense better than him. if cutler can beat that, he should play. that's a big IF.


donovan mcnabb, healthy daunte culpepper, mark brunell, michael vick, vince young, david carr, david garrard, aaron brooks, alex smith

all guys with mobility. the key is that NO ONE could step in right now and do it like jake does in THIS offense(or BVP for that matter) because the footwork is so complicated and the reads are so much different. the offense is really made for jake with the bootlegs and cross field throws which makes it easier for jake to deliver the ball where the receiver can adjust. i think donovan mcnabb would work really well here but that is very off topic and never going to happen

[Arkansas Bronco]

there are only 3 or 4 guys better than plummer in the league today and maybe NONE could run this offense better than him. if cutler can beat that, he should play. that's a big IF.
Dude you have ridden your homerism a bit too far. Jake isnt the 3rd or 4rth best qb in the NFL no matter how you look at it.

[youcandoit1687]

Dude you have ridden your homerism a bit too far. Jake isnt the 3rd or 4rth best qb in the NFL no matter how you look at it.

i think he means for this system. i HOPE he means for this system. lol plummers mother wouldnt say he was in the top 4. hell top 4 in the AFC, he was what number 5 in votes?

[Cito Pelon]

Welcome to playoff football.

Offenses regularly get shut down for the first couple of quarters.

The trick is not to give up 35 points in the meanwhile.

Denver's taken 3-phase beatings lately in the playoffs. Denver doesn't have a dominant phase out of the 3 phases. You want a dominating D, Shanny wants a dominating O. Shanny wins this round, my friend. So we'll see if this is a well-rounded team that has the confidence and the play-makers in all 3 phases to compete better come second season. There's still no dominant phase on paper right now.

[Popps]

Denver's taken 3-phase beatings lately in the playoffs. Denver doesn't have a dominant phase out of the 3 phases. You want a dominating D, Shanny wants a dominating O. Shanny wins this round, my friend. So we'll see if this is a well-rounded team that has the confidence and the play-makers in all 3 phases to compete better come second season. There's still no dominant phase on paper right now.

I'd actually agree with that. Shanahan threw some money at the problem bringing Bailey in and it worked. Then brought half of the city of Cleveland in, with moderate success.

But, I'd agree that our offense isn't dominant. However, it's my belief (and fairly well supported by historical football data) that you've got a chance to win a Superbowl with a good offense and a great defense, not the other way around.

We gave up on the run against Pittsburgh and we couldn't remotely get near Rothlisberger. He sat in the pocket and picked us apart all day long.

If you can't run the ball, and you can't pressure opposing QBs, you're absolutely not going to win in the playoffs.

[Taco John]

But, I'd agree that our offense isn't dominant. However, it's my belief (and fairly well supported by historical football data) that you've got a chance to win a Superbowl with a good offense and a great defense, not the other way around.



You'd have a great point if Denver hadn't won back to back Superbowls exactly the other way around.

[SoCalBronco]

http://lp.imageg.net/prod?set=key[name],value[MEFFLEY]&set=key[number],value[6]&set=key[displaysize],value[220]&load=url[http://chains.imageg.net/graphics/dynamic/chains/p2754889_customback.chain]

:)

[Kaylore]

why the cutler pick still has a big downside. The title of this thread doesn't jive with the discussion within. I was just thinking "you know after eight pages, no one here has successfuly explained why this is true."

Even Plummer supporters like myself can't see a downside to Cutler.

[Blueflame]

The title of this thread doesn't jive with the discussion within. I was just thinking "you know after eight pages, no one here has successfuly explained why this is true."

Even Plummer supporters like myself can't see a downside to Cutler.

I think the "downside" Jake was referring to was the potential for an almost-immediate QB controversy.

[Atlas]

Even Plummer supporters like myself can't see a downside to Cutler.

I agree, and well, your just plain right.

There is no one here when looking at what Cutler has to offer can say that there is no reason that he will NOT become a prolific passer under Shanny. Even Orange4life understands this.

There really is no downside in drafting him if you look to the future. Does he help Denver win games this year?? Probably not, but he might be the best QB in the NFL in 4 years.... That is a great thing and that os worth a gamble.

[SPORTSWRITER]

The title of this thread doesn't jive with the discussion within. I was just thinking "you know after eight pages, no one here has successfuly explained why this is true."

Even Plummer supporters like myself can't see a downside to Cutler.

I agree, K. Maybe Jay Cutler really DOESN'T have a downside! :~ohyah!: You reckon?

[Orange_Beard]

If you can't run the ball, and you can't pressure opposing QBs, you're absolutely not going to win in the playoffs.

Hmmm, Steelers had a very good D. They beat us with the pass and they beat the Colts with a passing game.

[watermock]

I agree, K. Maybe Jay Cutler really DOESN'T have a downside! :~ohyah!: You reckon?

I've been lookin' for one. Evidently he showed up with a 60's style haircut. That doesn't say anything but attitude, but I like it. I'm dizzy...anyway, I can't find a real weakness in him so far...

Hell, the kid was calling plays his second day from the huddle! Boo-Yah!

[riiiiick]

i think he means for this system. i HOPE he means for this system. lol plummers mother wouldnt say he was in the top 4. hell top 4 in the AFC, he was what number 5 in votes?

who has a better winning % in last 39 games? only a couple guys, i think.

[Orange_Beard]

who has a better winning % in last 39 games? only a couple guys, i think.

If you want to give credit to Plummer for the wins,
Then give him credit for the play-off loses. 1-3, not to good.

[riiiiick]

If you want to give credit to Plummer for the wins,
Then give him credit for the play-off loses. 1-3, not to good.

I agree. I blame plummer for those. he plays his best game and they win all of them. that said, it seems playoff losses (even SB losses) are the requirement to winning playoff/SB games (with few exceptions).

[orange 4 life]

The backbreaker was a forced fumble. It was the result of a swarming front seven. Jake was under duress all afternoon, but that forced fumble gave Pitt the ball again, and naturally... our defense laid down again.

Jake didn't make his first bad throw until the end of the first half, when we had already abandoned the run, dug ourselves a hole by playing no defense, and were in pass-only mode.


......and ironically, that actually WASNT a bad throw.

it sure APPEARED that way on television, but being at the game we could clearly see alexander break off his route (which was supposed to be an out) and plummer was throwing to a spot.
alexander wasnt there, and alexander got RIPPED on the sideline after the play.

plummer tried to force one into rod when he was double covered (again in pass only mode), but that was really his ONLY bad play of the game.

it was a total team loss, and as the leader of the offense (with rod and mike of course) he deserves SOME blame for that, but the BULK of it goes to the defense, as it did in the previous 3 playoff losses.
like you already mentioned popp, the one playoff game they showed up we won.
what a surprise.

[orange 4 life]

John Elway threw multiple picks in our Superbowl losses.

He must suck, right?

I mean, no matter what he did in the regular season or the playoffs leading up to that, if he threw picks... that's why we lost, right?

That's what you're inferring.

Or, should we look at those games a little more closely with some context?

Hmmm.

perfect post.
thats your M.O. though.

in the fantasy football era "context" and "analysis" escape the vocabulary of most people.
they see the turnovers in the playoff game (and/or the qb rating which of course is a worthless stat) and assume plummer mustve sucked.
anyone see bens superbowl stats?

its this reason that makes me hate fantasy football.

analyze that game (as well as the indy losses) and look at the SITUATIONS in which turnovers happened and a different picture reveals itself.

the fantastic regular season play from plummer in the last 3 seasons is completely ignored by many.
i struggle to find fans i can actually discuss games with that use CONTEXT AND ANALYSIS to make decisions on players and/or teams. its sad but true.

[orange 4 life]

there are only 3 or 4 guys better than plummer in the league today and maybe NONE could run this offense better than him. if cutler can beat that, he should play. that's a big IF.

not a popular statement, but its true.

good for you having the guts to say it.

there ARE only a few.
brady, manning, mcnabb (despite issues last year),........not too many.
carson palmer? one year isnt enough yet.
brees? not a chance.
eli? give me a break.

plummer is top ten EASY and probably top 5.

just be prepared to have everyone bash you for having an opinion
that is completely valid yet not the status quo.

[orange 4 life]

http://lp.imageg.net/prod?set=key[name],value[MEFFLEY]&set=key[number],value[6]&set=key[displaysize],value[220]&load=url[http://chains.imageg.net/graphics/dynamic/chains/p2754889_customback.chain]

:)

holy crap!!

i sure didnt expect to see that!! LOL

[Mile High Shack]

not a popular statement, but its true.

good for you having the guts to say it.

there ARE only a few.
brady, manning, mcnabb (despite issues last year),........not too many.
carson palmer? one year isnt enough yet.
brees? not a chance.
eli? give me a break.

plummer is top ten EASY and probably top 5.

just be prepared to have everyone bash you for having an opinion
that is completely valid yet not the status quo.

I like Plummer just as much as the next guy
in fact I have defended him a lot

but to make that kind of statement is just stupid...I'm sorry

Jake shows in the playoffs why he isn't going to be around next year or the year after that

His long ball is wobbly and inconsistant and he makes stupid decisions and doesn't have the arm strength to make up for bad throws
he isn't good in the red zone
he can't audible very well

he can scramble very well, but unless his first 2 options are open, he can't make it to the 3rd option

I dunno.........Jake is serviceable, in fact I think we can win a superbowl with him if we have the right parts around him

but if Cutler turns out to be a stud, he has way more upside than jake

[orange 4 life]

The title of this thread doesn't jive with the discussion within. I was just thinking "you know after eight pages, no one here has successfuly explained why this is true."

Even Plummer supporters like myself can't see a downside to Cutler.

i made the point in the first post my friend.

its pretty simple.
we did not use that pick (and that money) to make ourselves better RIGHT NOW, and considering we were one game away from a superbowl that was a reasonable expectation.

further, we have a VERY good qb who's playing fantastic and playing within the system (while retaining his big play ability), and oh yeah, he's in his prime.

plummer UNDERSTANDS the cutler pick, as do i.

he said he probably wouldve made it too, and i of course wouldnt have.

the downside is clear and its 2 fold.

1) again, we missed an opportunity to make a good team better.

2) while cutler is a possible longterm qb, the timing is wrong considering plummers age and level at which he's playing. cutler needs to ride pine for at least THREE years and watch plummer, yet i fear the fans and the media will pressure the team into doing it sooner, and i doubt that will be a good thing.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

further, we have a VERY good qb who's playing fantastic
No, we have a good QB who has been purposely limited for damage control.

A serviceable QB that Shanahan has maxed out.

[Kaylore]

the downside is clear and its 2 fold.

1) again, we missed an opportunity to make a good team better.

2) while cutler is a possible longterm qb, the timing is wrong considering plummers age and level at which he's playing. cutler needs to ride pine for at least THREE years and watch plummer, yet i fear the fans and the media will pressure the team into doing it sooner, and i doubt that will be a good thing.
1.) That's not downside. It's just delayed returns. Downside means there is a negative impact. There is none. At worst, we're the same team.

2.) Media pressure is something that Sahanahan and Bowlen could not care less about. They don't care if everyone wants to cut Plummer or not. Shanahan will put the best player on the field. That player will be who proves it in practice and works the hardest - not the most talented. He's benched better talents for special teams standouts many many times.

If Plummer is the best, then he'll play. Cutler doesn't even understand the playbook and Plummer isn't going to lose out to Van Pelt. Plummer is the type of guy who will get better from this, and we all want that. The fans have no impact on Shanahan's primary goal and that's to win football games.

[No1BroncoFan]

Plummer is a serviceable QB at best who has been utterly dismal in big games (playoffs). Shanahan knows it. That's why he drafted Cutler.
Until we can get a defense that can actually stop the opponent, any QB not named Elway is going to be "utterly dismal" in the playoffs. Sure, it would've helped if Plummer hadn't trown the picks. Sure it would've helped if Plummer had thrown more touchdowns. It also would have helped if the lack of defense didn't leave Plummer thinking he had to do it all and play higher risk ball.

It's a team effort, but don't let that get in the way of your hatred of the latest Bronco QB not named Elway.

Ben

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Until we can get a defense that can actually stop the opponent, any QB not named Elway is going to be "utterly dismal" in the playoffs. Sure, it would've helped if Plummer hadn't trown the picks. Sure it would've helped if Plummer had thrown more touchdowns. It also would have helped if the lack of defense didn't leave Plummer thinking he had to do it all and play higher risk ball.

It's a team effort, but don't let that get in the way of your hatred of the latest Bronco QB not named Elway.

Ben

LOL
Unlike a lot fans here, I don't have love affairs with players.
So I evaluate them with common sense and logic, not erections.

Thankfully, Shanahan is now too.

[Tombstone RJ]

DRIVE 1:
1-15-PIT15 (12:09) W.Parker up the middle to PIT 15 for no gain (L.Hill).
2-15-PIT15 (11:35) B.Roethlisberger pass to W.Parker to PIT 16 for 1 yard (R.Bernard).
3-19-PIT11 (10:32) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger left tackle to PIT 21 for 10 yards (L.Tatupu).
4-9-PIT21 (9:49) C.Gardocki punts 41 yards to SEA 38, Center-G.Warren. P.Warrick to SEA 36 for -2 yards (J.Harrison).
Seattle Seahawks at 09:39

DRIVE 2:
1-10-PIT20 (5:39) W.Parker left end to PIT 20 for no gain (M.Trufant).
2-10-PIT20 (5:02) W.Parker left end to PIT 26 for 6 yards (L.Hill).
3-4-PIT26 (4:20) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward.
4-4-PIT26 (4:14) C.Gardocki punts 37 yards to SEA 37, Center-G.Warren. P.Warrick to SEA 49 for 12 yards (J.Harrison; C.Kriewaldt).

DRIVE 3:
1-10-PIT20 (:17) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to C.Wilson.
2-10-PIT20 (:09) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward (J.Babineaux).
3-10-PIT20 (:06) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to N.Washington.
Second Quarter
Pittsburgh Steelers continued...
4-10-PIT20 (15:00) C.Gardocki punts 60 yards to SEA 20, Center-G.Warren. P.Warrick to PIT 46 for 34 yards (C.Iwuoma).
PENALTY on SEA-E.Pruitt, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at SEA 35.

DRIVE 4:
1-10-PIT20 (12:13) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward.
2-10-PIT20 (12:07) J.Bettis left end to PIT 22 for 2 yards (M.Tubbs).
3-8-PIT22 (11:25) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass to A.Randle El to PIT 30 for 8 yards (L.Tatupu).
1-10-PIT30 (10:44) H.Ward left end pushed ob at PIT 48 for 18 yards (M.Manuel).SEA-M.Manuel was injured during the play. He is Out. Play was an end around.
1-10-PIT48 (10:19) B.Roethlisberger pass intended for A.Randle El INTERCEPTED by M.Boulware at SEA 17. M.Boulware to SEA 17 for no gain (A.Randle El).

Why are you giving stats on the last SB?

[iforgotmypassword]

i think plummer is the best leader in the nfl right now, he does everything and then some that you could ask from a qb

plummer isnt buddying up to his competition

in his mind, he is helping a teamate become a better football player

[sirhcyennek81]

Plummer is the denver broncos starting quarterback. Jay Cutler is a rookie QB, sitting behind an established starter. This is not a lose lose situation. Geesh.


:Broncos:

[Popps]

LOL
Unlike a lot fans here, I don't have love affairs with players.

No worse than those around here who blame 35 point, first-half defensive collapses on the quarterback.

There's just as many extremes on both sides.

Personally, I'm well aware the Plummer has limitations. I'm also aware that to call him only "serviceable" in our offense is simply not being honest.

We can win multiple Superbowls with him as our quarterback. But, we'll need some weapons around him and a defense that doesn't lay down in big games.

John Elway and Joe Montana could have rotated snaps in that Pittsburgh game and we still would have lost.

[youcandoit1687]

No worse than those around here who blame 35 point, first-half defensive collapses on the quarterback.

There's just as many extremes on both sides.

Personally, I'm well aware the Plummer has limitations. I'm also aware that to call him only "serviceable" in our offense is simply not being honest.

We can win multiple Superbowls with him as our quarterback. But, we'll need some weapons around him and a defense that doesn't lay down in big games.

John Elway and Joe Montana could have rotated snaps in that Pittsburgh game and we still would have lost.

right on! he is easily top 15, could be top 10, probly not top 5. he is however, great for our offense because of the boot threat he holds against a DE who falls for the play action

[Tombstone RJ]

No worse than those around here who blame 35 point, first-half defensive collapses on the quarterback.

There's just as many extremes on both sides.

Personally, I'm well aware the Plummer has limitations. I'm also aware that to call him only "serviceable" in our offense is simply not being honest.

We can win multiple Superbowls with him as our quarterback. But, we'll need some weapons around him and a defense that doesn't lay down in big games.

John Elway and Joe Montana could have rotated snaps in that Pittsburgh game and we still would have lost.

Let's think about this from another perspective.

When the Broncos beat the Patriots in the playoffs this last season, I was very much excited by their win. IMHO, Brady and the Pats scared the hell out of me, and rightly so.

But this is what I want you to concentrate on: Every time Brady gets a snap, I'm scared as an opposing fan. I'm scared because I know, he's a great QB. I know he can lead his team to victory. I know he can put that team on his shoulders, and win.

That makes me nervous. I don't like that feeling as an opposing fan. The Broncos were a good enough team to beat the Pats on that day, at home at Invesco Field. But I got a sickening feeling in the pit of my stomach everytime Brady had the ball in his hands.

Now, be honest. Does Plummer give opposing fans that same feeling? Or, on the same note, do I feel great, everytime Plummer has the ball in his hands, regardless of the score, because I KNOW good things are going to happen?

No. And no.

Popps, you are absolutely correct in not putting all the blame on Plummer for that loss against Pittsburgh in the AFCC. The defense had a bad day. But, can you honestly say you knew good things were going to happen when the ball was snapped and Plummer was behind center, even though the Broncos were down?

I honestly can't say I "get that feeling" when Plummer gets the ball. I know that the Broncos are a good team. I know they are well coached and well prepared. I know Jake is a good QB. But he's not in the same category as Brady. And, that does make a difference.

I've heard all the arguements about not needing a primo QB to win a SB (see Tent Dilfer) and in the past, that has proven to be somewhat true. But, I'll always, always, always feel better with a Tom Brady or Joe Montana or (I'm not even going there) type of QB under center than with a Trent Dilfer. Plummer is a good QB, a great team leader, and a hellava guy. I like him. But with that being said, if Jay Cutler beats him out come 2007 and beyond, so be it.

I want an elite QB. Sorry, but I do. Cutler, like all QB's drafted in the first round has nothing but potential. Literally, that is all he has right now, potential. Cool. I hope he lives up to every last drop of that potential.

[No1BroncoFan]

LOL
Unlike a lot fans here, I don't have love affairs with players.
So I evaluate them with common sense and logic, not erections.

Thankfully, Shanahan is now too.
No response except an attack on my sexuality? Typical. When you can't argue the facts, resort to a personal attack. I got news for you. Cutler ain't Elway either.

Ben

[Bronco_Beerslug]

No response except an attack on my sexuality? Typical. When you can't argue the facts, resort to a personal attack. I got news for you. Cutler ain't Elway either.

Ben

Your sexuality? Who said Cutler was Elway? Re-read my statement again when you aren't in heat and see if you can actually understand it.

[Popps]

You'd have a great point if Denver hadn't won back to back Superbowls exactly the other way around.

So typically off-base of you.

Shanahan's FIRST major signings were ALL defensive linemen when he got to Denver.

Then, the last impact signing we made before winning it all was Neil Smith.

We already had Davis and Sharpe, Smith was a UFA and our offensive star came from the 7th round.

We made moves on offense, but not nearly to the extent we did on D. So, you're off the mark... as we've come to expect.

[Popps]

do I feel great, everytime Plummer has the ball in his hands, regardless of the score, because I KNOW good things are going to happen?

No. And no.


That's fine.. that's your feeling, which can be easily separated from factual information by looking at his TD/INT ratio, his overall production and of course... his win/loss record, all accomplished with significantly less talent around him than our last record-breaking QB.

Some fans actually feel good about that, as weird as it may seem.

Bottom line is, I'm always in favor of improving any position... and if Jay is better than Jake, I'll root for him to start.

But, John Elway couldn't win a championship with this current group of players, much less Jake Plummer.

I'd venture to guess that the rest of the league feels pretty good about facing our defense. In fact... ask yourself, which do you think has more respect around the league... or D or our O? Well, there's a reason for that.

[Popps]

I want an elite QB. Sorry, but I do.

Well, we drafted a kid. Maybe in a few years we'll have one.

Right now, we've got Plummer... who is totally capable of winning a championship in this offense, but we refuse to field a defense that can show up in a playoff game.

Well, to be fair, they showed up in one... and we naturally won that one.

[Popps]

From TSN 97 preview...

1 DENVER '96 record: 13-3, 6-2 in division. Good news: Despite his pass-happy reputation, coach Mike Shanahan has an offense built to run the ball and a defense built to stop the run. Look for Terrell Davis, the AFC's leading rusher a year ago, to repeat his performance behind new fullback Howard Griffith. Add in John Elway and his receivers, and you have one of the league's most balanced offenses. On defense, the front seven might be the best in franchise history. Linemen Michael Dean Perry, Neil Smith and Alfred Williams have been Pro Bowl players. The linebackers can tackle and cover. Watch John Mobley, who had a great training camp. Runstuffing middle linebacker Allen Aldridge, who can be an unrestricted free agent, is looking for a huge year. Bad news: At 37, Elway isn't as mobile as he once was. Plus, the offensive line struggled in the preseason. So did the secondary, where projected right cornerback Tory James is out for the year with a knee injury, as is his expected replacement, Selwyn Jones. It's altogether possible that Tim McKyer, signed last week out of desperation, could emerge as the starter. If so, the team's entire secondary would be comprised of players in their 30s. 16 games from now: Shanahan built this team to make a Super Bowl run this year and next, which should be Elway's final season. Despite a few weak spots, this is a talented team with quality veterans at most positions. It's also a hungry team. Last year's embarrassing playoff loss to Jacksonville ensured that the team wouldn't lose its edge. Veterans such as Elway and Perry are running out of time to win a Super Bowl. Then there's Smith, a free-agent acquisition at end. He is playing for the last big contract of his career. If the key players stay healthy, no team has a better chance to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl.


Just a refresher for those who forgot how we won two SBs.

1. Shanahan came in and went IMMEDIATELY after the defense. His FIRST and LAST big signings were defensive linemen.

2. We DID build a team to WIN NOW (Then), destroying the myth on this board that Shanahan has never been in a win-now mode. Some teams are better than others.

3. Our offense was built to run and control the ball... and our defense was built to disrupt opposing offenses with dominant front 7 play.

So, make no mistake about how Mike Shanahan got his first two rings. The franchise had a dominant QB for 12 years with nothing to show for it until Shanahan came in and gave him some support on offense, and totally re-vamped the defense... with the highest priority paid to building a dominant defensive line.

[No1BroncoFan]

Your sexuality? Who said Cutler was Elway? Re-read my statement again when you aren't in heat and see if you can actually understand it.
LOL
I think I got the gist of your statement, but just for fun let's break it down.
Unlike a lot fans here, I don't have love affairs with players.
A clear implication (since you were responding to my post) that myself and certain other people here on the Mane have "love affairs" with certain players
So I evaluate them with common sense and logic, not erections.
Erections? So, myself and other Bronco fans who think Jake is better than "barely serviceable" get hard-ons for him.
Thankfully, Shanahan is now too.
And finally a backhanded dig at Shannahan as well, implying that he used to judge talent by the size of his hard-on.

You have not once backed up your claim that our three time playoff quarterback is anything less than a very good quarterback, and you resort to personal attacks against anyone who disagrees with your hatred of Plummer. You need to accept the fact that he's not Elway (neither was Griese and neither is Cutler) and accept that the Broncos will likely never see another Elway.

Ben

[JCMElway]

LOL
I think I got the gist of your statement, but just for fun let's break it down.

A clear implication (since you were responding to my post) that myself and certain other people here on the Mane have "love affairs" with certain players

Erections? So, myself and other Bronco fans who think Jake is better than "barely serviceable" get hard-ons for him.

And finally a backhanded dig at Shannahan as well, implying that he used to judge talent by the size of his hard-on.

You have not once backed up your claim that our three time playoff quarterback is anything less than a very good quarterback, and you resort to personal attacks against anyone who disagrees with your hatred of Plummer. You need to accept the fact that he's not Elway (neither was Griese and neither is Cutler) and accept that the Broncos will likely never see another Elway.

Ben


His hard on and erection talk, I'm pretty sure, was just him speaking metaphorically. No one is questioning anyone's sexuality here.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

LOL

A clear implication (since you were responding to my post) that myself and certain other people here on the Mane have "love affairs" with certain players
LOL
Meaning = you're not judging players based purely on their skill level and on field performance.

Erections? So, myself and other Bronco fans who think Jake is better than "barely serviceable" get hard-ons for him.
No, "other Bronco fans" that think that Plummer is a GREAT QB are the ones that come into heat thinking about him. If you're one of them then that statement was directed at you too.

And finally a backhanded dig at Shannahan as well, implying that he used to judge talent by the size of his hard-on.
:rofl:
Again, you missed the "meaning". Shanahan woke up to the fact that Plummer is nothing more than a serviceable QB and drafted someone to replace him.

You have not once backed up your claim that our three time playoff quarterback is anything less than a very good quarterback,
Ben
Sure I have, Plummer cannot be counted on to bring the Broncos back when they get down, that's a fact (to date so far).

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9470/steelers9pg.png

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/3852/steelers14st.png

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7145/steelers28bs.png

[Popps]

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9470/steelers9pg.png

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/3852/steelers14st.png

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7145/steelers28bs.png


Wow.

90 points in the first half of 3 playoff games.

90 points our defense allowed.

Yep, it's the QBs fault.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Wow.

90 points in the first half of 3 playoff games.

90 points our defense allowed.

Yep, it's the QBs fault.
Never said it was all Plummer's fault.
How many offensive points in the first half of those games?

[Taco John]

Never said it was all Plummer's fault.
How many offensive points in the first half of those games?


A number that pretty close to how many turnovers we've have in that same time frame.

[Northman]

Never said it was all Plummer's fault.
How many offensive points in the first half of those games?



You cant argue with the Plummer Homers man. Plummer isnt expected to get the team into the endzone, its up to the defense to do both sides of the ball dont you know? Including when our O turns it over mulitple times. Ha!

[BroncoInferno]

You cant argue with the Plummer Homers man. Plummer isnt expected to get the team into the endzone, its up to the defense to do both sides of the ball dont you know? Including when our O turns it over mulitple times. Ha!

I guess it's solely up to Plummer to generate offense? Look at his supporting cast...Smith, Putz, Anderson, Lelie, Bell...that is a pretty mediocre group overall. Smith is the only guy ANY quaterback could count on consistently. Fortunately, Shanny realizes that his brilliant smoke and mirrors can only get you so far and took steps to improve the talent by bringing in Walker and the talented rookies. Yes, he brought in Cutler too, but because Cutler is that unusal guy who CAN get by without a lot around him (or, at least, could in college). Jake isn't that kind of guy. That isn't an indictment on him, though...only three or four guys in the league are. But if you improve on the mediocre group from the last couple of seasons, which Shanny has tried to do, then you'll see the offensive performances in the playoffs improve also.

[Popps]

You cant argue with the Plummer Homers man. Plummer isnt expected to get the team into the endzone, its up to the defense to do both sides of the ball dont you know? Including when our O turns it over mulitple times. Ha!

Dude, I'm not remotely a "Plummer homer."

I've said repeatedly that if Cutler looks better, I'll be thrilled to go with him over Jake and I'll root just as hard.

I'm just making a case that's supportable by 100 years of football history, if you want to look into it. You WILL NOT WIN playoff games when you give up 90 points in the first half of three games.

John Elway would not have won any of those games. If you doubt it, take a look at Elway's career pre-Shanahan when he had no defense and very little running game.

There is no QB in the league that you can stick in a 24 point hole and then expect to dig you out against a playoff caliber defense.

As for Jake's performance, he's had about an 80 QB rating and 1/1 TD/INT ratio in those games. Not great, but about what you get when you stick your offense in throw-only holes by your defense laying down in the first half of every playoff game.

I'll ask again... do you guys think we dominate on offense all year, and then just forget how to play in the playoffs?

Our offensive playoff performance is SYMPTOMATIC.

Jake threw his FIRST pick of the Pitt game when we were in a throw-only hole. Our defense allowed Pitt to score on every one of their first 5 drives.
They also forced a fumble on a sack. (That's where the other team tackles your QB. We're near last in the league, so we don't see much of that.)

Jake had a 103 QB rating and threw 2 TDs and 1 INT against Indy.

Meanwhile, our "defense" allowed Manning to set a yardage record and score 35 points... IN THE FIRST HALF.

So, once again... you can say things, but it doesn't make them true.

[Popps]

I guess it's solely up to Plummer to generate offense? Look at his supporting cast...Smith, Putz, Anderson, Lelie, Bell...that is a pretty mediocre group overall.

You'll never get anywhere with this.

You're right, but that doesn't matter around here.

Plummer has eclipsed a good portion of Elway's records with about half the talent around him.

John won 39 games over 3 years with Rod, Eddie, Shannon, Terrell, HoGo and the best o-line in Bronco history.

Jake won 33 over that same span with a shadow of that supporting cast.

You just have to look at facts to get your answers, here. Problem is, people just say things and assume that it becomes truth.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Plummer has eclipsed a good portion of Elway's records with about half the talent around him.

No he hasn't, unless you consider 4 or 5 out of over 50 a "good portion".


Jake won 33 over that same span with a shadow of that supporting cast.

No he didn't.

[Popps]

No he hasn't, unless you consider 4 or 5 out of over 50 a "good portion".


-Most yards
-Tied for most TDs
-Only QB to take every snap
-13 wins in 1 season as a starter (With about half the help)
-Most consecutive throws without an INT

So... let's see, wins... TDs.. yards... that about covers it.

No he didn't.

10-6
10-6
13-3

33

He and John both missed a few games as starters over the three year span.

Jake's winning % is around .750.

Anything else?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

-Most yards
-Tied for most TDs
-Only QB to take every snap
-13 wins in 1 season as a starter (With about half the help)
-Most consecutive throws without an INT

So... let's see, wins... TDs.. yards... that about covers it.
:rofl:
Like I said 4 or 5.
This about covers it........

John Elway:

1) Tied the NFL record for most seasons with 3,000 or more yards passing with 12
2) Most Attempts Career 7,250 John Elway 1983-98
3) Most Completions Career 4,123 John Elway 1983-98
4) Most Attempts By a Rookie Season 259 John Elway 1983
5) Most Attempts By a Rookie Game 44 John Elway 1983
6) Most Completions Career 4,123 John Elway 1983-98
7) Most Completions Season 348 John Elway 1993
8) Most Completions Game 36 John Elway, vs. San Diego 9/4/94
9) Most Completions By a Rookie Season 123 John Elway 1983
10) Most Touchdown Passes Career 300 John Elway 1983-98
11) Most Touchdown Passes Season 27 John Elway 1997
12) Most Touchdown Passes Game 5 John Elway, vs. Minnesota 11/18/84
13) Most Touchdown Passes Game By a Rookie 4 John Elway, vs. Baltimore 12/11/83
14) Most Passing Yards Career 51,475 John Elway 1983-98
15) Most Attempts Season 605 John Elway 1985
16) Most Attempts Game 59 Elway, at Green Bay 10/10/93

17) At the time of his retirement, John Elway held or was tied for 53 regular season Bronco records.


10-6
10-6
13-3

33
33 is incorrect.

[watermock]

21+21+17= 59 in the first half. 3 more from New England= 62, not 90.

[Orange_Beard]

When he breaks an Elway Playoff record, the records may mean something.

[Popps]

:rofl:
Like I said 4 or 5.
This about covers it........


You listed league records. I'm talking about meaningful team records.

What would be the most important?

1. Wins
2. TDs
3. Not throwing INTs
4. Yards

Jake leads in 2 and is tied for the other two.

The rest of the records you posted involved career stats, which Jake obviously won't have, only having played here for a few years.
He does hold the rookie record for most yards, so he and John split the yards/TDs for a rookie title.

So, for every meaningful season stat.. Jake leads or is tied.

But, keep bashing him. It makes so much sense that a a fan would hate a player as productive as him.

Here's a prediction, if we win it all... you'll still be bashing him. You'll say he pulled a "Trent Dilfer."

You hate him, and that's cool. That's your opinion. Just don't piss in the air and tell the rest of us it's raining.

[baja]

Popps and Beer Slug face off, this has a chance to be a 100 page thread...

[sirhcyennek81]

uhh...brian did it...yeah...its all griese's fault...AND the always important :worthless


:Broncos:

[Orange_Beard]

meaningful team records.

Playoff wins

[Popps]

Popps and Beer Slug face off, this has a chance to be a 100 page thread...

Nah, Taco and I will kill it talking about our babies. :D

[Popps]

Playoff wins

Elway threw 27 TDs and 21 INTs in the playoffs. That tells you that he had his struggles.

There was about a 10 year period where he was labeled by many as one of the biggest chokers in sports.

Different situations, different players... but those blaming our playoff losses on Plummer are using the same logic.

Once again, Elway had nothing to show for his hard work until we got him a real defense and a running game.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Elway threw 27 TDs and 21 INTs in the playoffs. That tells you that he had his struggles. You're kidding? Elway had his struggles? Who woulda thunk it playing on those sh*tty Reeve's teams?

There was about a 10 year period where he was labeled by many as one of the biggest chokers in sports. Not by anyone who knows football.

Different situations, different players... but those blaming our playoff losses on Plummer are using the same logic.What the Plummer knobbers can't understand is most people are blaming Plummer for 9 total points in the first half of 3 playoff games, not the loss. Most people also understand the game is basically over once we get behind.

Once again, Elway had nothing to show for his hard work until we got him a real defense and a running game. This is probably the most ignorant statement I've read in months.

[BombsOverBaghdad]

Nice thread .............. too bad I am playing catch up.
It looks like this is the "Spike TV" version of the OM :rofl:

[Popps]

You're kidding? Elway had his struggles? Who woulda thunk it playing on those sh*tty Reeve's teams?


Ahh... so having talent around you helps out, huh? Good to know.

Not by anyone who knows football.


Sticks and stones. I've posted factual information. You've posted your opinion. Actually, you've talked a lot about people's penises, which is a little curious.

Most people also understand the game is basically over once we get behind.

Again, if you are a big fan of comeback wins, maybe you should pop in some old Elway tapes. He's actually retired, and we have a different QB now.

I'm more a fan of winning games, which our current QB has done at about a .750 clip. Sorry he doesn't let his team get behind enough for you.

Plus, let's be honest... when you say "get behind"... we're talking about a defense that gives up 30 points in the first half of every playoff game. No QB in the history of football can be expected to overcome that crap.

This is probably the most ignorant statement I've read in months.

Oh so dramatic.

[watermock]

Most people also understand the game is basically over once we get behind.

Yep, time to turn off the TV when down by 3. Your you get the idiot sticker on your forehead.

If your down 24-3 at the half maybe. Even then your not out of it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ahh... so having talent around you helps out, huh? Good to know.
Yeah, Plummer has had absolutely no talent around him, the only reason we won any games is because of him. To think that Elway wouldn't have elevated these teams more Plummer is moronic (but Plummer knobbers seem to have this in common).

Sticks and stones. I've posted factual information. You've posted your opinion.
:rofl:
What facts? You said people were calling Elway a bust and I corrected you. And you seem to keep ignoring the fact that I pointed out you're wrong on Plummer's win stat.

Again, if you are a big fan of comeback wins, maybe you should pop in some old Elway tapes. He's actually retired, and we have a different QB now.

I'm more a fan of winning games, which our current QB has done at about a .750 clip. Sorry he doesn't let his team get behind enough for you.
LOL
Plummer plays defense too, WOW!


Plus, let's be honest... when you say "get behind"... we're talking about a defense that gives up 30 points in the first half of every playoff game. No QB in the history of football can be expected to overcome that crap.

You keep forgetting one little fact in this argument, we're talking about an offense that couldn't score more than 3
points in the first half of any of those games. So your Sorry he doesn't let his team get behind enough for you. sure doesn't work here.

[No1BroncoFan]

Popps,

You'll never geat ahead with the guys who can't get past thier Elway hangover. I wonder what it'll take for TJ to paint a #6 on a rock and use it for his avatar.

Ben

[Popps]

Yeah, Plummer has had absolutely no talent around him, the only reason we won any games is because of him.

The straw man.

Always a sign of a sinking ship. Show me where I said we only won because of Jake.

What I said was, Elway had more talent around him (by a longshot) for his 13 wins than Jake did. He also had less talent around him when he broke John's yardage and TD (tie) records.

Care to argue that? Of course, you wouldn't be able to make up a false premise like last post.

You keep forgetting one little fact in this argument, we're talking about an offense that couldn't score more than 3
points in the first half of any of those games. So your Sorry he doesn't let his team get behind enough for you. sure doesn't work here.

That makes little or no sense. His team put him in 30 point holes in 3 playoff games. (First half)

John Elway wouldn't have won those games, much less Jake Plummer.

[Popps]

Popps,

You'll never geat ahead with the guys who can't get past thier Elway hangover. I wonder what it'll take for TJ to paint a #6 on a rock and use it for his avatar.

Ben


I've said it before. Jake could win 2 SBs for us, and people would still be calling for someone else to start. People just get hung up on stuff.

[ZachKC]

I've said it before. Jake could win 2 SBs for us, and people would still be calling for someone else to start. People just get hung up on stuff.
Heh, this post coming from the guy calling out people for straw man arguments.

[Popps]

Heh, this post coming from the guy calling out people for straw man arguments.

The difference is, I didn't say that he said that.

Understand the difference?

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

He claimed that I SAID Plummer won all by himself.

I'm making an opinionated prediction about future events. (That people wouldn't be happy even if Jake won a SB.)

I watched it happen when I lived in the Bay Area. People wanted Steve Young OUT, even after he won it all. You just can't make some people happy.

Anyway, hope that clears up the very distinct difference for you.

[Cito Pelon]

I agree with Popps that the D for quite a few years now has fallen apart at times. Good O's have scored points in bunches. A lot of consecutive long TD drives.

But make no mistake, it takes a 3-phase game to have consistent play, to keep your team in games all the time.

Popps, you keep saying over and over "100 years of playoffs proves defense wins Championships." No way. Three phase teams win Championships. You can win a lesser title with just an O, or just a D, but you need ST's really bad also. You don't have 2 of the three and you can't even get a lesser title.

Popps, I'll agree that a non-collapsing D would have kept Denver in playoff games lately. But it's also true an O that could sustain drives would have kept Denver in those same playoff games. And let's not forget ST's. Been some horrible ST play for years and years in Denver. The ST's had barely reached competent since 1998 until last year.

Bottom line is Denver hasn't had a good enough all-around team for years and years. They had themselves a very bad patch going from 1999-2004, IMO the worst bad patch since John Ralston came to town. 2005 was a turnaround year. The overall level of play and coaching increased. I'm curious to see just how pissed off these guys are that they proved to be incapable of even competing in the NFL's Final Four. That's the big deal to me right now. They had a fine season, but to get run over at home on a beautiful sunny day in the AFC Title game, I'd be one pissed off player. So we'll see if the team has the backbone to compete in the Final Four this year.

[Popps]

3 of the best three offenses in the leagues were sent packing, three weeks in a row. (By Pittsburgh.)

Manning couldn't do it, Hasselbeck couldn't do it. Plummer couldn't do it.

Defense wins championships and ours just wasn't up to it.

Pittsburgh's was.

[Popps]

This reminds me of baseball teams that just keep adding bats as their pitching gets touched up year after year. Funny how simple the equation is, and to what lengths people will go to ignore it.

[Popps]

Popps, I'll agree that a non-collapsing D would have kept Denver in playoff games lately. But it's also true an O that could sustain drives would have kept Denver in those same playoff games.

Dude, I'm absolutely on board with a balanced team.

But, just my opinion here... what happened to us in the past three losses wasn't about balance. It was about a defense that was lacking pass-rush so badly, we had to send gimmicky blitz packages... which teams had well figured out by that point in the year. Pittsburgh had NO trouble with our blitzes. Manning basically laughed at us.

Now, against New England... a team who had offensive woes, we looked O.K.. Our defense kept us in the game, and our offense eventually got it going.
THAT is how playoff games are won.

When I talk about 100 years of football history, Cito... I'm talking about the concept that PLENTY of teams have won playoff games with little or no first-half scoring. We did it THIS year. But you can count on your hands how many teams have won playoff games while allowing 24-30 first half points.

See what I mean? It's not that I don't think we can improve the offense. I was a huge proponent of bringing in Walker. I'm happy with the Cutler picks, apart from our problems.

What I'm saying... is that you win championships by FIRST having a defense in place that can stop people and disrupt opposing offenses.

We don't have it. Our D ranked 15th in the league and near LAST in pass rush.

You said it yourself. Sub-par offenses can win championships... sub-par defenses, not so much.


(Good post, by the way. Nice to see someone stick to football breakdown and avoid talking about penises.)

[Cito Pelon]

I've said it before. Jake could win 2 SBs for us, and people would still be calling for someone else to start. People just get hung up on stuff.

Yeah, that's true.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

But you can count on your hands how many teams have won playoff games while allowing 24-30 first half points.


And here's the fallacy of your argument. If the offense is scoring points those teams WON'T be scoring 30 points a half.