Poll: Most americans support NSA's Efforts

[24champ]

Poll: Most Americans Support NSA's Efforts

By Richard Morin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 12, 2006; 7:00 AM

A majority of Americans initially support a controversial National Security Agency program to collect information on telephone calls made in the United States in an effort to identify and investigate potential terrorist threats, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll.

The new survey found that 63 percent of Americans said they found the NSA program to be an acceptable way to investigate terrorism, including 44 percent who strongly endorsed the effort. Another 35 percent said the program was unacceptable, which included 24 percent who strongly objected to it.

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Secrecy Privilege Invoked in Fighting Ex-Detainee's Lawsuit
For at least the fifth time in the past year, the Justice Department yesterday invoked the once rarely cited state secrets privilege to argue that a lawsuit alleging government wrongdoing should be dismissed without an airing, this time in the case of a German citizen seeking an apology and...


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A slightly larger majority--66 percent--said they would not be bothered if NSA collected records of personal calls they had made, the poll found.
Underlying those views is the belief that the need to investigate terrorism outweighs privacy concerns. According to the poll, 65 percent of those interviewed said it was more important to investigate potential terrorist threats "even if it intrudes on privacy." Three in 10--31 percent--said it was more important for the federal government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats.

Half--51 percent--approved of the way President Bush was handling privacy matters.

The survey results reflect initial public reaction to the NSA program. Those views that could change or deepen as more details about the effort become known over the next few days.

USA Today disclosed in its Thursday editions the existence of the massive domestic intelligence-gathering program. The effort began soon after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Since then, the agency began collecting call records on tens of millions of personal and business telephone calls made in the United States. Agency personnel reportedly analyze those records to identify suspicious calling patterns but do not listen in on or record individual telephone conversations.

Word of the program sparked immediate criticism on Capitol Hill, where Democrats and Republicans criticized the effort as a threat to privacy and called for congressional inquiries to learn more about the operation. In the survey, big majorities of Republicans and political independents said they found the program to be acceptable while Democrats were split.

President Bush made an unscheduled appearance yesterday before White House reporters to defend his administration's efforts to investigate terrorism and criticize public disclosure of secret intelligence operations. But he did not directly acknowledge the existence of the NSA records-gathering program or answer reporters' questions about it.

By a 56 percent to 42 percent margin, Americans said it was appropriate for the news media to have disclosed the existence of this secret government program.

A total of 502 randomly selected adults were interviewed Thursday night for this survey. Margin of sampling error is five percentage points for the overall results. The practical difficulties of doing a survey in a single night represents another potential source of error.

.

[SteveTensi13]

Seems the only ones who have a problem with it are the anti-American left and the Democratic party. I personally have no problem with it. It's about time we have a president who is pro-active and not reactive like slick Willie.

[Jesterhole]

Take it with a grain of salt. It came out the SAME DAY the story broke, before people had time to absorb what in the hell was happening. CNN just released another poll that is 53-41 against the spying.

Not caring about this makes you un-American. Wake up and realize what horrible things this president is doing to this country.

[Spider]

Take it with a grain of salt. It came out the SAME DAY the story broke, before people had time to absorb what in the hell was happening. CNN just released another poll that is 53-41 against the spying.

Not caring about this makes you un-American. Wake up and realize what horrible things this president is doing to this country.
of course but the way things have been going for Steve Tensi13 party , he needs what ever shred of hope he can get .......... Probably 2 more bad news cycles from slicing his wrist

[RMT]

These are probably the same people polled about illegal immigration where "70% support some kind of guest worker/amnesty plan."

[24champ]

The Right Call on Phone Records
The NSA's Program Safeguards Security -- and Civil Liberties

By Richard A. Falkenrath
Saturday, May 13, 2006; Page A17

On Thursday, USA Today reported that three U.S. telecommunications companies have been voluntarily providing the National Security Agency with anonymized domestic telephone records -- that is, records stripped of individually identifiable data, such as names and place of residence. If true, the architect of this program deserves our thanks and probably a medal. That architect was presumably Gen. Michael Hayden, former director of the NSA and President Bush's nominee to become director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

The potential value of such anonymized domestic telephone records is best understood through a hypothetical example. Suppose a telephone associated with Mohamed Atta had called a domestic telephone number A. And then suppose that A had called domestic telephone number B. And then suppose that B had called C. And then suppose that domestic telephone number C had called a telephone number associated with Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The most effective way to recognize such patterns is the computerized analysis of billions of phone records. The large-scale analysis of anonymized data can pinpoint individuals -- at home or abroad -- who warrant more intrusive investigative or intelligence techniques, subject to all safeguards normally associated with those techniques.


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Clearly, there is a compelling national interest in understanding and penetrating such terrorist networks. If the people associated with domestic telephone numbers A, B and C are inside the United States and had facilitated the Sept. 11 attacks, perhaps they are facilitating a terrorist plot now. The American people rightly expect their government to detect and prevent such plots.

Very few career government officials possess the expertise, initiative and creativity needed to devise a system to penetrate such networks, using only existing statutory and presidential authorities, employing only existing technical and personnel resources, and violating the privacy of no American. Yet, if the USA Today story is correct, this appears to be exactly what Hayden did.

Some legislators and observers have questioned the legality of the alleged NSA domestic telephone records collection program. If the facts of the program are as reported in USA Today, there is every reason to believe that the program is perfectly legal.

There are, of course, strict legal limits on the ability of federal agencies such as the NSA to compel the provision of domestic information or to collect it secretly. The USA Today story, however, alleges that three telecommunications companies -- AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth -- provided it voluntarily. How else could one company (Qwest) decline to provide the information? Since there is no prohibition against federal agencies receiving voluntarily provided business records relating to their responsibilities, it appears that the NSA's alleged receipt and retention of such information is perfectly legal.

The three companies reported to have supplied telephone records to the NSA also appear to be acting lawfully. The Telecommunications Act of 1934, as amended, generally prohibits the release of "individually identifiable customer proprietary network information" except under force of law or with the approval of the customer. But, according to USA Today, the telephone records voluntarily provided to the NSA had been anonymized. In addition, the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 explicitly permits telecommunications companies to provide customer records to the government if the government asks for them. So it would appear that the companies have been acting not just in the public interest, but also within the law and without encroaching on the privacy of any of their customers.

Bureaucrats excel at finding reasons not to do something. They are most often guilty of sins of omission, not commission. A timid, ordinary executive might have concluded that it was too risky to ask U.S. telecommunications companies to provide anonymized call records voluntarily to an agency such as the NSA, dealing with foreign intelligence. If the USA Today story is correct, it appears that Mike Hayden is no timid, ordinary executive. Indeed, it appears that he is exactly the sort of man that we should have at the helm of the CIA while we are at war.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/13/AR2006051300043.html

.

[Rigs11]

Seems the only ones who have a problem with it are the anti-American left and the Democratic party. I personally have no problem with it. It's about time we have a president who is pro-active and not reactive like slick Willie.
Anti american? good one. Did you come with that all by your little self? I remember the majority supporting the iraq war and the moron in the white house too.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

of course but the way things have been going for Steve Tensi13 party , he needs what ever shred of hope he can get .......... Probably 2 more bad news cycles from slicing his wrist

LOL

[Spider]

boy the liberal media is spinning this

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Seems the only ones who have a problem with it are the anti-American left and the Democratic party.

There you go with the same old "anti-Bush = anti-American" crap that any third-grade child can recognize as an invalid argument.

It's about time we have a president who is pro-active and not reactive like slick Willie.

Yeah, we saw how "pro-active" the drunk idiot you support was when he was warned that al Qaeda was planning suicide attacks inside the US. We saw how "pro-active" Dim Son was when Katrina happened.

[Rigs11]

Here's the anti-american poll.;)


Newsweek Poll: Americans Wary of NSA Spying
Bush’s approval ratings hit new lows as controversy rages.

Newsweek Web Exclusive
By David Jefferson
Updated: 11:59 a.m. ET May 13, 2006

May 13, 2006 - Has the Bush administration gone too far in expanding the powers of the President to fight terrorism? Yes, say a majority of Americans, following this week’s revelation that the National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone records of U.S. citizens since the September 11 terrorist attacks. According to the latest NEWSWEEK poll, 53 percent of Americans think the NSA’s surveillance program “goes too far in invading people’s privacy,” while 41 percent see it as a necessary tool to combat terrorism.
President Bush tried to reassure the public this week that its privacy is “fiercely protected,” and that “we’re not mining or trolling through the personal lives of innocent Americans.” Nonetheless, Americans think the White House has overstepped its bounds: 57 percent said that in light of the NSA data-mining news and other executive actions, the Bush-Cheney Administration has “gone too far in expanding presidential power.” That compares to 38 percent who think the Administration’s actions are appropriate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12771821/site/newsweek/

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Seems the only ones who have a problem with it are the anti-American left and the Democratic party. .

The "only ones?"

Seems you don't keep up with this forum.

Seems most of your fellow conservatives disagree with you.

[TailgateNut]

Seems the only ones who have a problem with it are the anti-American left and the Democratic party. I personally have no problem with it. It's about time we have a president who is pro-active and not reactive like slick Willie.

What a TOOL! The real anti-americans are presently residing in the white house.

Come and get your donuts!

[Traveler]

.


My question is how can someone support this program when they have no knowledge of the directive(s) or information being reviewed?

[TailgateNut]

My question is how can someone support this program when they have no knowledge of the directive(s) or information being reviewed?


All you need to do is buy into the "Always be very afraid, Campaign" brought to us by the moron in the mansion! It's the 2006 version, to be ammended in 2008 to include "monitors in all homes, just in case"!

[defenseman]

On and on and on. Need to let it play out and not react to the rhetoric from the press. My guess is they will have some valid reasons for analysing certian data. Collecting "personal" information on americans (UNLESS THEY ARE SUPPORTING THE TERRORISTS) doesn't do them any good at all......I'm not going to overreact until it's been proven they are collecting personal information when they should not...dman

[TailgateNut]

On and on and on. Need to let it play out and not react to the rhetoric from the press. My guess is they will have some valid reasons for analysing certian data. Collecting "personal" information on americans (UNLESS THEY ARE SUPPORTING THE TERRORISTS) doesn't do them any good at all......I'm not going to overreact until it's been proven they are collecting personal information when they should not...dman


There are other ways of gathering the information which they use as justification for the database. You start with the operatives and build a tree of contacts, which can be expanded to include any and all calls made by anyone which becomes part of the tree.
On the other hand the goverment is picking up all of the leaves in the forest, in an attempt to build a tree! Or at least that is what they would like us to believe!

[Rascal]

I doubt the accuracy of this poll, because of this: "A total of 502 randomly selected adults were interviewed Thursday night for this survey. Margin of sampling error is five percentage points for the overall results. The practical difficulties of doing a survey in a single night represents another potential source of error."

And if the true #'s are even close to that it just shows how sad our state has become.

[Rascal]

Seems the only ones who have a problem with it are the anti-American left and the Democratic party.

Get a clue.

[Rascal]

These are probably the same people polled about illegal immigration where "70% support some kind of guest worker/amnesty plan."

LOL

[clarker]

I don't have a problem with this except that it is seems like another program that has no oversight by either the courts or congress. Which is one of the problems I have with Bush. He thinks he has the right to do what ever he wants without oversight by the other two branches of government, which is not the case. A middle school level education in government should have told him that.

[TailgateNut]

I don't have a problem with this except that it is seems like another program that has no oversight by either the courts or congress. Which is one of the problems I have with Bush. He thinks he has the right to do what ever he wants without oversight by the other two branches of government, which is not the case. A middle school level education in government should have told him that.


Thank you!!! Although we have quite often disagreed, I wholeheartedly agree with your take. The "red flags" wouldn't come out quite as often if he woudn't act like a damn dictator on a daily basis. Our sytem of checks and balances was set up to prevent "lawless" policies!

[clarker]

Thank you!!! Although we have quite often disagreed, I wholeheartedly agree with your take. The "red flags" wouldn't come out quite as often if he woudn't act like a damn dictator on a daily basis. Our sytem of checks and balances was set up to prevent "lawless" policies!At first I was pissed that they were doing it in the first place, but then I was listening to Shultz(SP?) the left wing talk radio guy and he said that he could see a good reason for doing it. That you could find a pattern to find terrorist.

Ok, fine, but it seems from what I've read they were doing it without congress or the courts knowing about it. If that is true and from everything I've read it is, then there is no oversight being done. Which is not how are countries government is suppose to run.

[TailgateNut]

One of the major problems with the policy of this administration is the attitude that they do not need approval for their actions! If they would follow SOP a lot of their actions would not backfire!

[bendog]

"Suppose a telephone associated with Mohamed Atta had called a domestic telephone number A. And then suppose that A had called domestic telephone number B. And then suppose that B had called C. And then suppose that domestic telephone number C had called a telephone number associated with Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The most effective way to recognize such patterns is the computerized analysis of billions of phone records. The large-scale analysis of anonymized data can pinpoint individuals -- at home or abroad -- who warrant more intrusive investigative or intelligence techniques, subject to all safeguards normally associated with those techniques."

But if the records are "stripped" of personally identifying info, this would not be possible. Moreover, once they had Atta, they could have accessed all his phone records in hours with a FISA warrant, had they bothered.

[TailgateNut]

"Suppose a telephone associated with Mohamed Atta had called a domestic telephone number A. And then suppose that A had called domestic telephone number B. And then suppose that B had called C. And then suppose that domestic telephone number C had called a telephone number associated with Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The most effective way to recognize such patterns is the computerized analysis of billions of phone records. The large-scale analysis of anonymized data can pinpoint individuals -- at home or abroad -- who warrant more intrusive investigative or intelligence techniques, subject to all safeguards normally associated with those techniques."

But if the records are "stripped" of personally identifying info, this would not be possible. Moreover, once they had Atta, they could have accessed all his phone records in hours with a FISA warrant, had they bothered.


Very good take! I guess if they don't use personaly identifying info, I'm a target now.
I called a supplier this morning ( phone #A-B), he in turn called the rock quarry to set up to deliver the material requested (phone # B-C) the quarry then called me to inform me that they had problems with the crusher (phone C-A#), I then called my sales rep (A-D), he then called the quarry to confirm the issues (D-C), then he returned my call (D-A) to inform me of the extent of the problem. Then I called the supplier to reschedule (A-B once again).
LOOKS LIKE A PATTERN TO ME!!!!

[defenseman]

And the NEXT terrorists that hits us, and don't think it won't happen, it will soon enough, the same folks will be claiming why didn't you stop them, it's your fault GW. Well, sorry , it's the terrorists fault , not GW's. And these same people complaining about the the technique will be claiming they weren't protected? 1) We ARE NOT going to stop all of them, we will be hit again from what I can tell. 2) The method of FINDING the terrorists should not infringe on our personal stuff, agreed, however, to ask permission to find a terrorists at every turn is just plain ludicrous. We pay them to do the job, let them do the damn job. 3) ALL forms of law enforcement need to work together on this, we are still too segmented. 4) I refuse to query EVERYTHING the government does, and wait till the facts display themselves. Once out, I'll make call. I'm getting damn tired of the press, and the fact that some americans feel like they need to know EVERYTHING going on wrt catching terrorists. Too a point, the public needs to know some of what is going on, on other points though, it is strictly based on a NEED TO KNOW policy. If you have the clearance and the "need to know" THEN you find out, otherwise, hit the bricks. This is the exact reason we spend soooooooo much MONEYYYYYYYYY and background checks, etc.....etc......etc......to protect the public and ensure the correct person is allowed to use the information. Contrary to popular belief, I would say that nearly ALL, if not ALL, government employees are trying to do the right thing, use the info for how it is intended and they are not trying to rob you and spy on you.......thats another thing, the damn "sky is falling s**t" is flat out starting to bore me. Let the facts come out, lets see where it goes, quit jumping on the damn "sky is falling" bandwagon along with the "left leaning" press. ...dman

[TailgateNut]

Contrary to popular belief, I would say that nearly ALL, if not ALL, government employees are trying to do the right thing,

Hilarious! I would say that nearly ALL, if not ALL, government employees are looking for their next paycheck, even if they have to "fake work"!

[clarker]

And the NEXT terrorists that hits us, and don't think it won't happen, it will soon enough, the same folks will be claiming why didn't you stop them, it's your fault GW. Well, sorry , it's the terrorists fault , not GW's. And these same people complaining about the the technique will be claiming they weren't protected? 1) We ARE NOT going to stop all of them, we will be hit again from what I can tell. 2) The method of FINDING the terrorists should not infringe on our personal stuff, agreed, however, to ask permission to find a terrorists at every turn is just plain ludicrous. We pay them to do the job, let them do the damn job. 3) ALL forms of law enforcement need to work together on this, we are still too segmented. 4) I refuse to query EVERYTHING the government does, and wait till the facts display themselves. Once out, I'll make call. I'm getting damn tired of the press, and the fact that some americans feel like they need to know EVERYTHING going on wrt catching terrorists. Too a point, the public needs to know some of what is going on, on other points though, it is strictly based on a NEED TO KNOW policy. If you have the clearance and the "need to know" THEN you find out, otherwise, hit the bricks. This is the exact reason we spend soooooooo much MONEYYYYYYYYY and background checks, etc.....etc......etc......to protect the public and ensure the correct person is allowed to use the information. Contrary to popular belief, I would say that nearly ALL, if not ALL, government employees are trying to do the right thing, use the info for how it is intended and they are not trying to rob you and spy on you.......thats another thing, the damn "sky is falling s**t" is flat out starting to bore me. Let the facts come out, lets see where it goes, quit jumping on the damn "sky is falling" bandwagon along with the "left leaning" press. ...dmanI want the government to use any thing they can to prevent attacks, but what is wrong with the checks and balances of the government. It worked for 200+ years before Bush, why can't the work now.

As I've said it is not the program itself that I have a problem with, it is Bush's stance that he doesn't have to answer to anyone. That he doesn't have to sumit to oversight by the other two branches of government.

I don't have a problem with the data base or wire tapping of terrorist out side the country calling into the country, but I do think that is wise and prudent to have someone making sure that the programs are not abused. I think that is reasonable way of looking at it.

Because your right if a attack happened and it could have prevented by one of these programs and Bush didn't use them, he would be rosted by some of the same people bitching about them right now. How ever that doesn't mean he should be able to run these programs without oversight of some kind.

[defenseman]

Those checks and balances were forgone on numerous occassions over the past 50 to 60 years for various reasons. The advent of the internet and very sophisticated methods of gathering information had led to the need for some unique forms of gathering information to say the least. Bottom line, it's been happening here and there for a long time now. But, nobody found out about it till later. making sure they're not abused is absolutely important I agree. Tail gate if you REALLY believe that, your credibility is in great doubt. Some of the most honest hardworking people I've ever met have worked for the government. You obviously have an axe to grind and have thrown the umbrella above all of the employees of the government. I feel really bad for you...dman

[TailgateNut]

Tail gate if you REALLY believe that, your credibility is in great doubt. Some of the most honest hardworking people I've ever met have worked for the government. You obviously have an axe to grind and have thrown the umbrella above all of the employees of the government. I feel really bad for you...dman

Let me rephrase, by excluding including the majority of the military! But as far as goverment employees are concerned (not all, but the majority), they are some of the least productive members of society, outdone only by city and county employees! I've seen it with my own eyes! The main reason for their lack of drive is the FACT that it takes the equivalent of an act of congress to get rid of them once they're feeding from the golden spoon!
PS: You can feel bad for me if it makes you feel better. I could care less about what others think of me. Never have and never will!

[alkemical]

Hey,

with all the computer logging, etc -

Anyone else find it funny they couldn't find who sold short the stocks on 9/11 - yet the want to snoop through MY life?

[defenseman]

unfortunately, I agree with you to a degree. Unfortunate only because it's a sad state of affairs in some arenas. Alot of military "jobs" are being contracted out to government employees. The pay is not the greatest but it's not bad either. In addition, sometimes I believe we've created the strongest "union" in the country given some of the allowances (both measurable and immeasurable) that government employees get. Not saying it's wrong, alot of these folks definitely earn their paycheck, but to be honest as you said, some definitely DO NOT. I'll place the blame where I believe it lies, with AGAIN ENFORCING THE STANDARDS otherwise known as REQUIREMENTS. Government , in general , DOES NOT do a very good job of enforcing the standard. I for one, believe we pass TOO MANY laws on the books which are by nature, unenforceable. KISS, Keep it simple stupid...dman

*Quality, the word for the day, seems to have gone by the way side in our country. Instant gratification and social acceptance have replaced it.

[Smiling Assassin27]

most Americans don't give a damn about anything until it hits them or their pocket books personally. apathy rules, folks. of course, most Americans claim rights that are really not rights but are priveleges.

[defenseman]

Oh but how true, the line between a RIGHT and a PRIVELEDGE have been blurred significantly today...dman

[bendog]

Very good take! I guess if they don't use personaly identifying info, I'm a target now.
I called a supplier this morning ( phone #A-B), he in turn called the rock quarry to set up to deliver the material requested (phone # B-C) the quarry then called me to inform me that they had problems with the crusher (phone C-A#), I then called my sales rep (A-D), he then called the quarry to confirm the issues (D-C), then he returned my call (D-A) to inform me of the extent of the problem. Then I called the supplier to reschedule (A-B once again).
LOOKS LIKE A PATTERN TO ME!!!!
It makes some sense. You take the whole, of a huge slice, of ALL calls, including cell, and emails, and develop a statistically valid "normal pattern" of what a typical individ or biz calling pattern looks like. It'd have to be w/n parameters, and it couldn't be exact. And then, you have software that goes through all this data, and pulls sending and receiving points that don't fit the pattern. Then you investigate those calls.

Even I have to give bushii a pass on not letting on they're doing that. However, they just redid the patriot act, and the congress will give him literally any anti-terror law he wants. They don't have to spell out exactly what they're up to, if they wanted 100 more FISA judges with a low probable cause standard to apply. But, it's just arrogance of a dude born rich who hasn't worked a day in his life.... until he got the present job.

[defenseman]

It makes some sense. You take the whole, of a huge slice, of ALL calls, including cell, and emails, and develop a statistically valid "normal pattern" of what a typical individ or biz calling pattern looks like. It'd have to be w/n parameters, and it couldn't be exact. And then, you have software that goes through all this data, and pulls sending and receiving points that don't fit the pattern. Then you investigate those calls.

Even I have to give bushii a pass on not letting on they're doing that. However, they just redid the patriot act, and the congress will give him literally any anti-terror law he wants. They don't have to spell out exactly what they're up to, if they wanted 100 more FISA judges with a low probable cause standard to apply. But, it's just arrogance of a dude born rich who hasn't worked a day in his life.... until he got the present job.


Didn't something get "attatched" to the above legislation that the Pres. didn't like? I'm thinking there was a reason similar to this he didn't sign the bill...dman

[bendog]

Didn't something get "attatched" to the above legislation that the Pres. didn't like? I'm thinking there was a reason similar to this he didn't sign the bill...dman
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/09/AR2006030901307

[defenseman]

Can't get to the material on the washington post..dman

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I want the government to use any thing they can to prevent attacks, but what is wrong with the checks and balances of the government. It worked for 200+ years before Bush, why can't the work now.


Bingo! :thumbsup:

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that just about any American - liberal or conservative - would agree with this statement.

Unfortunately, people like dman always have to crank out the disingenuous spin that anyone who objects to Bush's illegal wiretapping activities wants the terrorists to win.

Yawn.

[errand]

Take it with a grain of salt. It came out the SAME DAY the story broke, before people had time to absorb what in the hell was happening. CNN just released another poll that is 53-41 against the spying.

Not caring about this makes you un-American. Wake up and realize what horrible things this president is doing to this country.

Actually the story of NSA gathering this info is old news (3-4 months if memory serves me right)...it's just being rehashed now because a former bigwig of NSA is up for CIA chief...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Actually the story of NSA gathering this info is old news (3-4 months if memory serves me right)...it's just being rehashed now because a former bigwig of NSA is up for CIA chief...
It doesn't.

[errand]

I don't have a problem with the data base or wire tapping of terrorist out side the country calling into the country, but I do think that is wise and prudent to have someone making sure that the programs are not abused. I think that is reasonable way of looking at it.

Because your right if a attack happened and it could have prevented by one of these programs and Bush didn't use them, he would be rosted by some of the same people b****ing about them right now. How ever that doesn't mean he should be able to run these programs without oversight of some kind.

Just as I asked numnerous times during the debates about the Patriot Act...can you name one American whose civil liberties have been stripped as a result of this?

Not one American has been falsely accused, or arrested on information gathered by this program.....but guess what, we haven't been attacked here in America since they've been implemented.

[alkemical]

Why am i being treated as guilty and not presumed innocent?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Just as I asked numnerous times during the debates about the Patriot Act...can you name one American whose civil liberties have been stripped as a result of this?

Not one American has been falsely accused, or arrested on information gathered by this program.....but guess what, we haven't been attacked here in America since they've been implemented.

Translation:

"The rule of law and the seperation of powers only applies to Clinton's wiener."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Not one American has been falsely accused, or arrested on information gathered by this program

That's a lie.

There was that guy who worked for Intel in Oregon, to cite one example.

....but guess what, we haven't been attacked here in America since they've been implemented.

And it certainly isn't because of anything Bush has done.

[errand]

It doesn't.

Yeah, your right because everyone knows that December 24th, 2005 wasn't months ago...

the NY Times no less, had an article about the NSA data mining phone records....it came out on Friday December 24, 2005."errand hitting bulleyes from the prone position while Beerslug is getting Maggie's Drawers while shooting from the hip"

[errand]

That's a lie.

There was that guy who worked for Intel in Oregon, to cite one example.



And it certainly isn't because of anything Bush has done.

Got a link to the story?

So it's not from anything that Bush (or his adminsitration) has done...

OK, then why haven't we been attacked here at home since?

[errand]

Here ya go Beerslug...and amazingly, one of your liberal cronies posted the info...in March. Notice the highlighted sentence.

Why Data Mining Won't Stop Terror

In the post-9/11 world, there's much focus on connecting the dots. Many believe data mining is the crystal ball that will enable us to uncover future terrorist plots. But even in the most wildly optimistic projections, data mining isn't tenable for that purpose. We're not trading privacy for security; we're giving up privacy and getting no security in return.

Most people first learned about data mining in November 2002, when news broke about a massive government data mining program called Total Information Awareness. The basic idea was as audacious as it was repellent: suck up as much data as possible about everyone, sift through it with massive computers, and investigate patterns that might indicate terrorist plots.

Americans across the political spectrum denounced the program, and in September 2003, Congress eliminated its funding and closed its offices.

But TIA didn't die. According to The National Journal, it just changed its name and moved inside the Defense Department.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Got a link to the story?

I posted it when the story came out three years ago or so.

So it's not from anything that Bush (or his adminsitration) has done...

OK, then why haven't we been attacked here at home since?

Luck.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

the NY Times no less, had an article about the NSA data mining phone records....it came out on Friday December 24, 2005."errand hitting bulleyes from the prone position while Beerslug is getting Maggie's Drawers while shooting from the hip"

:oyvey:

More like "shooting blanks while looking like a ninny."


5-14-06

As The Times subsequently reported, the N.S.A. program was worse than ineffective; it was counterproductive. Its gusher of data wasted F.B.I. time and manpower on wild-goose chases and minor leads while uncovering no new active Qaeda plots in the United States. Like the N.S.A. database on 200 million American phone customers that was described last week by USA Today, this program may have more to do with monitoring "traitors" like reporters and leakers than with tracking terrorists.

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/opinion/14rich.html?hp

[clarker]

Just as I asked numnerous times during the debates about the Patriot Act...can you name one American whose civil liberties have been stripped as a result of this?

Not one American has been falsely accused, or arrested on information gathered by this program.....but guess what, we haven't been attacked here in America since they've been implemented.That is not the point. The point is that Bush feels he is above the way our government is set up.

Just look at this way, some day a Dem is going to be in the White House. Do you want that person to do what Bush is doing right now? Do you want that person to put into place programs that have no oversight by the courts or Congress? Do you really?

[defenseman]

No. And that is what is going on, I don't like it either. ...dman

[defenseman]

You know , with the president's point of view, and congresses, and the house view? Well, I don't see anything getting accomplished for at least two years....the house though, pisses me off..dman

[alkemical]

You know , with the president's point of view, and congresses, and the house view? Well, I don't see anything getting accomplished for at least two years....the house though, pisses me off..dman


Dman,

I know we've had the conversation before about how those in DC don't live in "America" - and this last bit is exactly proof. Sure they got some people streaming radio & the net to find out what 'we' think. They still don't get it.

If it isn't any more evident that 'they' don't get it, and middle America doesn't care - we are in for one nasty chaffing.

[defenseman]

Yep, and yet I hear (actually someone on the board posted it , forget who) they are trying to pass into law ensuring a third party cannot recieve funds UNLESS they recieve 20% of the vote. That is going to be pretty much damn near impossible. UNLESS a movement is started and soon. I'm for a third party right now, don't trust either side to do anything except talk mindless rhetoric and "vote mining" to ensure they are re-elected...what a joke..dman

[alkemical]

Yep, and yet I hear (actually someone on the board posted it , forget who) they are trying to pass into law ensuring a third party cannot recieve funds UNLESS they recieve 20% of the vote. That is going to be pretty much damn near impossible. UNLESS a movement is started and soon. I'm for a third party right now, don't trust either side to do anything except talk mindless rhetoric and "vote mining" to ensure they are re-elected...what a joke..dman


I posted that info Dman -

nothing like 'honesty' through paranoia, eh? :)

[defenseman]

I thought it might have been you, but didn't want to give credit unless absolutely sure. Sorry bout that. Honesty through paranoia, sure feels like that to a point anyway. Don't trust any of them right now, not one. kind of a really sick feeling especially since , for all intents and purposes I've been working for the Commander in chief for the last 28 yrs. Perplexed? Yes, I am..dman

[alkemical]

Dman,

When i did work for your 'company' - i did it for you guys. I don't like the guys in DC - but you guys do all the work anyway.

Heh, dman - i may not 'work' for the President, but i pay his salary - and i dunno, since i was 15 and paying taxes - i've probably not had a good return on my investment :)

[defenseman]

Here recently , nor have i.......dman

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Has it struck anyone that AT&T, BellSouth and Verizon, the phone companies that cooperated with the Repugnats, are the same companies that want to dominate and restrict the Internet?

One hand washing the other in a mutual circle jerk?

http://www.bartcop.com/pickles-psycho.jpg