Breaking down the Broncos-Redskin trades.

[Requiem]

I found this on another forum, but I'll put it into my own words.

The First Denver Trade With Redskins:
Denver receives - Champ Bailey and a second rounder (Tatum Bell).

Washington receives - Clinton Portis.

The Second Denver Trade With Redskins:
Denver receives - Future first, (Which became #37 and #68) and #119 which was Brandon Marshall and a third rounder in '05 which became Karl Paymah. #37 was traded for Javon Walker, and #68 was packaged with #15 to get Jay Cutler at #11.

Washington receives - Jason Campbell.

So in retrospect:

We "gave up" Clinton Portis, and the #25 which was used on Jason Campbell for players and picks that helped us get the following:

Champ Bailey, Tatum Bell, Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall, Karl Paymah, Jay Cutler.

Not a bad few years in the front office, huh?

[GreatBronco16]

Shanny should be brought up on rape charges for doing that to the skins.

[Rocket 7]

BroncoBuff you can only have one account

[Florida_Bronco]

Wow, I didn't know we raped them that badly.

[Cito Pelon]

Wash gave up a lot to get Portis and Campbell. They don't value draft picks too highly. They had what, one draft pick in the first 3 rounds this year? But they had the best team last year they've had in 10 years. Denver, on the other hand, gave up a lot also. Those trades are still up in the air as to value. We'll know a little more this year and next.

[elsid13]

The skins front office doesn't seem to be willing to build thru the draft. Some of it is because Gibbs is on limited schedule, but it is going to hurt the franchise in the long run. But on other hand would you trust Vinny Cirello (sp) with your future.

[Lev Vyvanse]

Using the 2006 NFL Draft Value Chart

Denver gets
Champ Bailey
#37 = 530 points
#41 = 490 points
#68 = 250 points
#76 = 210 points
#119 = 56 points
All picks value 1536 = 7th overall pick

Washington
Clinton Portis
#25 = 720 points

So what would you rather have Champ Bailey and the 7th pick or Clinton Portis and the 25th pick? The choice seems obvious to me.

[BroncoBuff]

We "gave up" Clinton Portis, and the #25 (in 2005)which was used on Jason Campbell for players and picks that helped us get the following:

Champ Bailey, Tatum Bell, Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall, Karl Paymah, Jay Cutler.

Not a bad few years in the front office, huh?

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but in addition to Portis and last year's #1, we also gave up this year's 1st round pick, #29 overall.

It's still a felony in most states, though.

[BroncoBuff]

BroncoBuff you can only have one account
I have multiple personality disorder.

Besides, I gave up colors and bolds for Lent ...

... What? Lent is over?!

Hoo-ray!!!

[watermock]

I don't really care about points. I like Cutler alot after learning more about him. Yes, we had two firsts this year, but we started out at 22/29, and parlayed that into Cutler and two seconds. We still had 3 more picks in the 4th and some damn decent picks in 5 and 6.

I'm usually pulling what is left of my hair out on draft day, but it felt almost as good as 1981. I said we needed quality over quanity, and we got it IMO, but I never thought we could move from 29 to Cutler and still have a full draft.

I'm also excited to get Dinger as OC. It will be good to get a few more wrinkles in. After all, he was on our SB teams so he was a fine choice. I'm sure they have a DT targeted somewhere. Why don't they bring in Dorsett Davis for another look if he's not turned into a tub of lard.

[wabbit]

...
I'm also excited to get Dinger as OC. It will be good to get a few more wrinkles in. After all, he was on our SB teams so he was a fine choice...

I honestly believe Heimerdinger may prove to be the best off-season acquisition of 2006...and beyond.

I also think he'll be a head coach in the league...hopefully, after a few more extremely successful years here in Denver.

[Requiem]

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but in addition to Portis and last year's #1, we also gave up this year's 1st round pick, #29 overall.

It's still a felony in most states, though.

Woops, forgot about that. ;) :thanku:

[orinjkrush]

i've always believed the assistant coaches are VERY important...more important than the press they receive. its nice to see shanny pay some more attention to improving the quality of the ACs.

[baja]

I honestly believe Heimerdinger may prove to be the best off-season acquisition of 2006...and beyond.

I also think he'll be a head coach in the league...hopefully, after a few more extremely successful years here in Denver.

I was going to quote mocks post and say this very same thing than I read wabbit's post. I could not agree more and have said so many times already. Our O is going to blossom under Dinger and this is why I offered that what looked like ridiculous bet that Watts would be active all 16 games this season. I think Dinger will bring Watts around in a big way. Although with the addition of Walker I am a little edgy but I think Walker was brought in to replace Rod more that complement him. Hopefully Rod has 2 more years though. All in all I love our group of receivers, once again we went from a weakness to a strength at a position in a single draft. Last year it was CB's that was turned around. it's great bering a Bronco fan, you should try it crazy horse.

[watermock]

Woops, forgot about that. ;) :thanku:

I was going to mention that Requiem didn't factor in the lost first in 2004, but we had a very good draft anyway. What did S.D. give up for Rivers then Brees tore up his shoulder and brought more than probably should of?

Damn Gibbs. I never dreamed our pick would drop past 15 st most. I think we will be very good but not dominant like last year. It's dissapointing because the stars were all aligned and we didn't grab the brass ring.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . .So what would you rather have Champ Bailey and the 7th pick or Clinton Portis and the 25th pick? The choice seems obvious to me.

Let's see, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Clinton Portis and the 25th pick. That was easy.

[youcandoit1687]

i would take champ over clinton and the 25th. throw in the seventh and i die of ectasy. champ is easily worth the farm in most years for denver, IMO. im a total champ homer tho

[Cito Pelon]

i've always believed the assistant coaches are VERY important...more important than the press they receive. its nice to see shanny pay some more attention to improving the quality of the ACs.

The assistant staff is very important. We'll see how this current crop pays off. I was hollering for years for Shanny to upgrade after he lost Dinger, Karl Dorrell, Fonzarelli, Donatell back in 99-00. Let's see if Dinger can get the plays in faster this year. It was sickening to see the number of times Plummer had to call TO the past 2 years because he didn't get the playcall fast enough. Another testament to Plummer's team-player attitude. Naturally, Shanny insisting on filtering the play calls f's that up pretty good.

[Cito Pelon]

i would take champ over clinton and the 25th. throw in the seventh and i die of ectasy. champ is easily worth the farm in most years for denver, IMO. im a total champ homer tho

No way you dump the RB with the best YPC in NFL history in his first 2 years for a CB over salary issues - then pay the CB more. 30 td's in 2 years, excellent back in the red zone, you can't find those every day. A possible top-ten ever back, and you trade him for a CB? Sheesh, that was stupid. If both Bell can become a great back, and if Champ can play well in big games, I'll amend "stupid" to "even."

[elsid13]

The assistant staff is very important. We'll see how this current crop pays off. I was hollering for years for Shanny to upgrade after he lost Dinger, Karl Dorrell, Fonzarelli, Donatell back in 99-00. Let's see if Dinger can get the plays in faster this year. It was sickening to see the number of times Plummer had to call TO the past 2 years because he didn't get the playcall fast enough. Another testament to Plummer's team-player attitude. Naturally, Shanny insisting on filtering the play calls f's that up pretty good.

So rather have Shanahan sit on the side line and be the NFL's Bobby Bowden??? Shanahan is one of the best offense mind in the game, and you don't want his input??? He does nothing different then any other head coach in the league. Timeouts get called for a lot of reasons, and unless you have some insider knowledge I doubt one of the major culprit is time it take relay in plays

[Play2win]

It is sooo nice NOT having Clinton Portis on our team... :approve:

[Florida_Bronco]

It is sooo nice NOT having Clinton Portis on our team... :approve:

He's a character alright, but to his credit he seems like a decent guy. Don't get me wrong, I'd still make the trade in a heartbeat, but I'll remember Portis fondly for the time he was here. :)

[Cito Pelon]

So rather have Shanahan sit on the side line and be the NFL's Bobby Bowden??? Shanahan is one of the best offense mind in the game, and you don't want his input??? He does nothing different then any other head coach in the league. Timeouts get called for a lot of reasons, and unless you have some insider knowledge I doubt one of the major culprit is time it take relay in plays

Just simple common sense tells you HC's should not be relaying or filtering plays from the OC into the QB, except in extreme circumstances. That's what the OC is for. Maybe you listen in on the headset, but rarely do you micromanage. There have been few in NFL history that have done that on every single snap. Name one besides Shanny. Holmgren maybe would be the only one. Sherman at GB maybe used to do that. Stupid way to manage the game. Did Bill Walsh filter every O snap through him? Did Jimmy Johnson, Bill Cowher, Don Shula? Name a few HC's that call the O play to the QB on every single O play. Stupid way to manage the game.

[youcandoit1687]

No way you dump the RB with the best YPC in NFL history in his first 2 years for a CB over salary issues - then pay the CB more. 30 td's in 2 years, excellent back in the red zone, you can't find those every day. A possible top-ten ever back, and you trade him for a CB? Sheesh, that was stupid. If both Bell can become a great back, and if Champ can play well in big games, I'll amend "stupid" to "even."

2002 den | 16 | 273 1508 5.5 15 | 33 364 11.0 2 |
| 2003 den | 13 | 290 1591 5.5 14 | 38 314 8.3 0 |
| 2004 was | 15 | 343 1315 3.8 5 | 40 235 5.9 2 |
| 2005 was | 16 | 352 1516 4.3 11 | 30 216 7.2 0 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 60 | 1258 5930 4.7 45 | 141 1129 8.0 4

15 games - 315 carries - 1500 yards - 4.7 ypc - 11 TDs

in 03, MA and Q added 164 carries, yards and 602 yards so we had 2193 yards on 454 carries for 4.8 ypc and 17 TDs
in 02, similar stats

very good no doubt but....
Mike ANderson
2005 den | 15 | 239 1014 4.2 12 | 18 212 11.8 1 |
Tatum Bell
2005 den | 15 | 173 921 5.3 8 | 18 104 5.8 0 |

15 games - 412 carries - 1935 carries - 4.69 ypc - 20 TDs

THAT is why they say that any RB can be plugged into our offense and why i say that it was worth it to get the best CB in the league and a position that, prior to that trade, had stumped us. were like a RB farm in a small village lol. we select and grow the RBs and trade them at market for seomthing that we arent good at selecting and growing

[SouthStndJunkie]

He's a character alright, but to his credit he seems like a decent guy. Don't get me wrong, I'd still make the trade in a heartbeat, but I'll remember Portis fondly for the time he was here. :)

I fondly remember sitting in the south stands and watching him throw up 2 bucks and some change and 5 TDs on KC's vaunted '32' Defense and then claiming the belt afterwards.

That was my favorite CP moment by far.

[elsid13]

Just simple common sense tells you HC's should not be relaying or filtering plays from the OC into the QB, except in extreme circumstances. That's what the OC is for. Maybe you listen in on the headset, but rarely do you micromanage. There have been few in NFL history that have done that on every single snap. Name one besides Shanny. Holmgren maybe would be the only one. Sherman at GB maybe used to do that. Stupid way to manage the game. Did Bill Walsh filter every O snap through him? Did Jimmy Johnson, Bill Cowher, Don Shula? Name a few HC's that call the O play to the QB on every single O play. Stupid way to manage the game.

Since none of us here actually hear Shanahan on the headset how do you know he called/filter every play. Walsh used to call every offense play, Gibbs did it in Washington last year, Martz did in St. Louis, Holmgren does it in Seattle. All of those coaches not only call each play but also developed the game plans. Shanahan has been very successful as coach and this team has been always been effective offense, why question success.

[Cito Pelon]

It is sooo nice NOT having Clinton Portis on our team... :approve:

You gotta be f'in kidding me. I mean no disrespect, but that's pure manure. Portis is probably the best back in the League right now, and has been since his rookie year. LT and James are comparable, who elsein the AFC? Shaun Alexander is not as good as Portis, IMO. He can disappear easy, I don't know why, but he can. Portis is one of the best backs I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. That guy loves to compete, it was stupid to dump him.

[watermock]

Oh brother, it's pretty hard to imagine that most of Kubiaks plays were changed. It's absurd to make assumptions, but I imagine the book was allready open before we got the ball and after each tackle, there is some time, not much, but enough with the radio. I'm not sure if the play can even be radioed in from the booth directly unless the OC is on the sidelines.

[youcandoit1687]

You gotta be f'in kidding me. I mean no disrespect, but that's pure manure. Portis is probably the best back in the League right now, and has been since his rookie year. LT and James are comparable, who elsein the AFC? Shaun Alexander is not as good as Portis, IMO. He can disappear easy, I don't know why, but he can. Portis is one of the best backs I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. That guy loves to compete, it was stupid to dump him.

well my post on the last page showed that we can get the same if not better production for cheaper. portis was great no doubt but champ and two RBs are better. we pretty much just got a CB and got rid of a big contract. management knew that we could adequately replace him and get the player that we couldnt get otherwise. we are a RB farm and our strategy is to select and grow RBs so that we can trade them for players we cant find otherwise

[SoCalBronco]

Just simple common sense tells you HC's should not be relaying or filtering plays from the OC into the QB, except in extreme circumstances. That's what the OC is for. Maybe you listen in on the headset, but rarely do you micromanage.

The OC is "there" for whatever purpose the HC deems him to have. If the HC would like to micromanage, that is fine, in fact that is desireable. He is in command. He will ultimately bear responsibility for the result and yet you are telling me, no he has to stay hands off, its the OCs job or DCs job. Your going to hold the HC responsible in the end and you call it "his" team, and yet he is not supposed to control the offensive or defensive playcalls. The HC should intervene and "micromanage" whenever it suits him.

[watermock]

Portis and Gibbs were two years ago. Sheesh. I was one of the only ones that said he would be a star honestly but I've missed like everyone else at times. I said Portis would be the best pick of the draft several times and was laughed at. His antics and the belt rubbed the coach the wrong way so he let him go.

Let's see here:
2004 Washington Redskins 15 15 343 1315 3.8 64 5 5 65
2005 Washington Redskins 16 16 352 1516 4.3 47 11 6 74

Bell:
2004 Denver Broncos 14 0 75 396 5.3 29 3 2 18
2005 Denver Broncos 15 1 173 921 5.3 68 8 10 41

Now look. Portis has almost 700 carries for about 4.1 with Washington despite a good year making the playoffs.
Bell has has 248 carries for 5.3.

Which RB has the fresher legs?

Portis has an average of 8.0 per catch.
Bell has an average of 8.0 per catch.

Bell is worked less, has a better average and the same average recieving and I didn't even like the trade.

Bailey's contract will look small in two more years anyway. You don't know what your talking about. Bell might not be Portis, who I liked against alot here, but this trade wasn't some disaster.

Oh yeah...did I mention Champ Bailey? Portis and Bailey's contracts were very similiar. 56/63 or something like that. Add in corner might last longer than a RB that is light run 700 times in two years.

[Cito Pelon]

Since none of us here actually hear Shanahan on the headset how do you know he called/filter every play. Walsh used to call every offense play, Gibbs did it in Washington last year, Martz did in St. Louis, Holmgren does it in Seattle. All of those coaches not only call each play but also developed the game plans. Shanahan has been very successful as coach and this team has been always been effective offense, why question success.

OK, ok, I was testing knowledge. You showed a little bit. I emphasize a "little bit". You saw a few times where other HC's other than Holmgren and Shanny relayed every single O play into the QB. Maybe Martz and Walsh can bark out the plays a little faster than Shanny, eh? Shanny seemed to have a good sysem going in 96-98, then it fell apart pretty good, so what happened between then and now? You tell me. I'm looking for answers same as you.

Denver used to win a lot of playoff games with Dan Reeves in charge, Denver has been smoked in 4 of the last five playoff games since 1998, just totally smoked and humiliated, total embarrassments, one Div Title, one playoff win. That pisses me off!!! That had not happened to Denver in something like 30 years before Shanny went on his playoff fiasco run!.

So you tell me, my friend. Something has to pop. This can't go on forever. To only prove competitive in one playoff game in 8 years is not Bronco football. No way, no how. That is not Bronco football. We were once the most winningest playoff team ever, had the most AFC Championships ever. Both those earmarks have been lost under Shanahan. I can't tolerate that, either he makes up the ground lost, or we go another direction.

[watermock]

We have been to 5 superbowls and 2 more AFC Championships in 20 years along with 3 more playoff apperances. That's 11 in 20 years. STFU.

[watermock]

If you can't tolerate it, don't be a fan. Your jumping up and down in a tantrum! Reeves collared Elway quite honestly and tried to trade him. We almost made it to the SuperBowl and you demand results. Lord.

[Cito Pelon]

Oh brother, it's pretty hard to imagine that most of Kubiaks plays were changed. It's absurd to make assumptions, but I imagine the book was allready open before we got the ball and after each tackle, there is some time, not much, but enough with the radio. I'm not sure if the play can even be radioed in from the booth directly unless the OC is on the sidelines.

It's not that they have to be changed, but why doi they have to be filtered? The plays have to come into Shanny before they get relayed to Plummer. That's just stupid. I wouldn't run a time crucial operation like that, would you? I can see listening in and paying attention, but to filter every play? That's just megalomaniacal, and doesn't really contribute to winning on gameday.

[Cito Pelon]

well my post on the last page showed that we can get the same if not better production for cheaper. portis was great no doubt but champ and two RBs are better. we pretty much just got a CB and got rid of a big contract. management knew that we could adequately replace him and get the player that we couldnt get otherwise. we are a RB farm and our strategy is to select and grow RBs so that we can trade them for players we cant find otherwise

You're nuts. You don't dump an injury-free back that has the best YPC in NFL history in his first two years for a CB, then pay the CB more. That's just stupid, my friend. Find me one time in NFL history a team has traded the best YPC tailback in NFL history. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Lets's capitalize it - STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. One of the dumbest trades I've ever seen.

[watermock]

i'm not sure the upstairs area can directly relay anyway Cito. I think there is only one link to the QB.

[Cito Pelon]

The OC is "there" for whatever purpose the HC deems him to have. If the HC would like to micromanage, that is fine, in fact that is desireable. He is in command. He will ultimately bear responsibility for the result and yet you are telling me, no he has to stay hands off, its the OCs job or DCs job. Your going to hold the HC responsible in the end and you call it "his" team, and yet he is not supposed to control the offensive or defensive playcalls. The HC should intervene and "micromanage" whenever it suits him.

"If the HC would like to micromanage, that is fine, in fact that is desireable." That's ridiculous. No way you want your team in that scenario on gameday.

[MechanicalBull]

Put me down as another one that has been looking forward to see what Heimerdinger can do. He is a proven winner in the NFL(Den and Tenn) at his job except for his stint in NY but he wasn't really given the opportunity at all and was very pissed off at the Jets FO.

On to the Portis/Bailey trade. When I first heard the rumors I was a bit cautious but when I heard we'd be also getting a 2nd rd pick I was 100% behind cause of Denver's proven track record of running backs. The thing about our backs since Portis left is though I don't think they put any fear into the opposing defense. I'd take Bailey and Bell/Dayne over Portis and I know I'm greedy but I would love to have another game changing back to go along with Bailey.

[watermock]

Shanahan called the plays in both the SB wins. It's on tape. Pubes would send plays down and they would be relayed to the QB. I'm almost positive there can only be one headphone to the QB. It doesn't take too long. the ball has to be spotted, as soon as the OC sees the down and distance he radios down around when the ball is set.

Then you can radio the play while your still in the huddle. You know nothing Cito. I remember now, only one coach can have the link to the QB, that was Shanahan. He calls in the plays, period, he has a book upstairs, but can call his own.

[Cito Pelon]

i'm not sure the upstairs area can directly relay anyway Cito. I think there is only one link to the QB.

There's only one frequency to the QB, but any number of people can be on that frequency. It's a simplex headset to the QB - receive only - but anybody the team wishes can transmit. Did Vermeil relays the plays to Green last year? No, Saunders did, but Vermeil listened in.

[watermock]

I don't think that is true at all. You might be able to listen, but only one person can transmit. Your full of it as usual.

So what Saunders did. He's not even on the team. I find it rather amusing that Saunders called the plays without going thru Vermeil. All I said was only one coach can transmit to the QB, and only one to the chosen Defensive player. That was Al Wilson last year.

[watermock]

Well I tried to find out, but couldn't find out exactly the rules, but I think you can only have a chosen one to communicate directly to either the QB or the designated D player. It changes nothing about the argument whatsoever.

Provide a link then.

[Cito Pelon]

Shanahan called the plays in both the SB wins. It's on tape. Pubes would send plays down and they would be relayed to the QB. I'm almost positive there can only be one headphone to the QB. It doesn't take too long. the ball has to be spotted, as soon as the OC sees the down and distance he radios down around when the ball is set.

Then you can radio the play while your still in the huddle. You know nothing Cito. I remember now, only one coach can have the link to the QB, that was Shanahan. He calls in the plays, period, he has a book upstairs, but can call his own.

You may have me there, Mock. Be careful with the "You know nothing Cito" stuff, though. Be very careful with that. I won't tolerate much of that from you.

So, there's only one voice able to relay plays to the QB? Then why is it that Shanny has to have the OC give him the play, then he in turn speaks into the mike to Plummer? Stupid way to manage a game.

[Cito Pelon]

Well I tried to find out, but couldn't find out exactly the rules, but I think you can only have a chosen one to communicate directly to either the QB or the designated D player. It changes nothing about the argument whatsoever.

Provide a link then.

Can't provide a link, my friend, and it doesn't change the argument. If you have an OC, let him make the plays. Put yourself in Shanny's place - are you the OC or the HC on gameday? How do you go have a talk with the DL, let them know you want them to bring a little more hell if you're playing OC? The HC is the HC, that's why you have OC's and DC's. The HC is supposed to oversee the Coordinators, not be one of them.

[Merlin]

Considering Champ's role in last yr's playoffs, and what Portis' could have done, your argument does not hold water. Denver would not have gotten past NE and still be winless in the post Elway playoff era.

[watermock]

Be careful with the "You know nothing Cito" stuff, though. Be very careful with that. I won't tolerate much of that from you.



Please, I have watched it carefully. Noone has been able to tell for sure. You don't know Cito, you assumed you did. I'm almost positive the calls were called in by Shanahan from Kubiak and he could change them at will, that's why you saw TO's. You act like you know, but I have watched the behavior. You see Shanahan calling the play in. That can be done while they are in the huddle honestly. I'm not going to bother, but from what I can tell, the book was upstairs, radioed down, and sent or vetoed by Shanahan. Of course they can communicate to Kubiak! I don't know exactly and neither do you, that's why I posted the rules but they didn't show them. All I know is that of course coaches can communicate but only one person is allowed to call offensive and defensive plays in. I think Coyer called in plays directly to Wilson, and it might of been a source of the confusion with Gibbs. I'm almost positive calls were sent to Shanahan from Kubiak then sent to Jake around the time he went to the huddle. Whatever.

[watermock]

Can't provide a link, my friend, and it doesn't change the argument. If you have an OC, let him make the plays. Put yourself in Shanny's place - are you the OC or the HC on gameday? How do you go have a talk with the DL, let them know you want them to bring a little more hell if you're playing OC? The HC is the HC, that's why you have OC's and DC's. The HC is supposed to oversee the Coordinators, not be one of them.

Oh, so you can't argue any more than my supposition rather than your assertion. Why do you let the OC make all the play calls again when your HC is better? It's Coyer's place to handle the Defense. Yes, he took over for Robinson before fireing him, Shanahan would be a fine DC, but he's left that to Coyer. Shanahan doesn't make the defensive calls but might contribute to the game plan.

The HC is supposed to "oversee" the coordinators? WTF do you think that means? HC means you make the final call! I'll make an analogy. You are the President but have a series of advisors from Curtis LeMay to Jimmy Carter. They all can make recommendations, but it's still the President's call. Next.

[Cito Pelon]

Portis and Gibbs were two years ago. Sheesh. I was one of the only ones that said he would be a star honestly but I've missed like everyone else at times. I said Portis would be the best pick of the draft several times and was laughed at. His antics and the belt rubbed the coach the wrong way so he let him go.

Let's see here:
2004 Washington Redskins 15 15 343 1315 3.8 64 5 5 65
2005 Washington Redskins 16 16 352 1516 4.3 47 11 6 74

Bell:
2004 Denver Broncos 14 0 75 396 5.3 29 3 2 18
2005 Denver Broncos 15 1 173 921 5.3 68 8 10 41

Now look. Portis has almost 700 carries for about 4.1 with Washington despite a good year making the playoffs.
Bell has has 248 carries for 5.3.

Which RB has the fresher legs?

Portis has an average of 8.0 per catch.
Bell has an average of 8.0 per catch.

Bell is worked less, has a better average and the same average recieving and I didn't even like the trade.




Bailey's contract will look small in two more years anyway. You don't know what your talking about. Bell might not be Portis, who I liked against alot here, but this trade wasn't some disaster.

Oh yeah...did I mention Champ Bailey? Portis and Bailey's contracts were very similiar. 56/63 or something like that. Add in corner might last longer than a RB that is light run 700 times in two years.

Again, Bell has possibilities. The trade so far to me has been pretty bad. Catastrophic or disastrous I won't say that.

[Cito Pelon]

Considering Champ's role in last yr's playoffs, and what Portis' could have done, your argument does not hold water. Denver would not have gotten past NE and still be winless in the post Elway playoff era.

????? You saying Champ did well, or Portis could have helped the team better?

[Merlin]

????? You saying Champ did well, or Portis could have helped the team better?
The second sentence gives you the answer.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . I'm almost positive the calls were called in by Shanahan from Kubiak and he could change them at will, that's why you saw TO's. . . . . . .. I'm almost positive calls were sent to Shanahan from Kubiak then sent to Jake around the time he went to the huddle. Whatever.

I agree.

[Inkana7]

????? You saying Champ did well, or Portis could have helped the team better?
He's saying that Champ's 103 yard INT return was the turning point of that game, and we might have lost the game if not for it. Would you rather have seen Roc Alexander in coverage that game, or Champ?

[Cito Pelon]

Put me down as another one that has been looking forward to see what Heimerdinger can do. He is a proven winner in the NFL(Den and Tenn) at his job except for his stint in NY but he wasn't really given the opportunity at all and was very pissed off at the Jets FO.

On to the Portis/Bailey trade. When I first heard the rumors I was a bit cautious but when I heard we'd be also getting a 2nd rd pick I was 100% behind cause of Denver's proven track record of running backs. The thing about our backs since Portis left is though I don't think they put any fear into the opposing defense. I'd take Bailey and Bell/Dayne over Portis and I know I'm greedy but I would love to have another game changing back to go along with Bailey.

I'm intersted to see what Dinger can do also. He was the guy I wanted to see at OC instead of keeping Kubes, instead Shanny chose to keep Kubiak. I bet Dinger would have liked to bring in new AC's, but Shanny told him keep the guys you have now. I think that is a mistake. The NFL is a cut throat biz, if you're gonna bring in a new OC, let him choose his AC's.

[Cito Pelon]

He's saying that Champ's 103 yard INT return was the turning point of that game, and we might have lost the game if not for it. Would you rather have seen Roc Alexander in coverage that game, or Champ?

I did see a long INT return, I also saw a player holding up the ball in exaltation long before he scored a TD. And then getting hammered - and I do mean hammered, just flat out hammered - juuuuuuuust barely before he reached the goal line. I'm not all that impressed with Champ. He's a good player, but his expoits are negated by his buffoonery. No way he was worth Portis, no way. It was a stupid trade.

[Play2win]

Portis was one step out the Back Door, the Minute he first got off the plane in Denver...

Portis was NEVER a Bronco...

[Florida_Bronco]

Portis was one step out the Back Door, the Minute he first got off the plane in Denver...

Portis was NEVER a Bronco...

Aww give the boy some credit, he played some great ball for us.

[SureShot]

I did see a long INT return, I also saw a player holding up the ball in exaltation long before he scored a TD. And then getting hammered - and I do mean hammered, just flat out hammered - juuuuuuuust barely before he reached the goal line. I'm not all that impressed with Champ. He's a good player, but his expoits are negated by his buffoonery. No way he was worth Portis, no way. It was a stupid trade.

Is it a stupid trade ,because of all the playoffs wins he lead us to?15638:rofl:

[elsid13]

OK, ok, I was testing knowledge. You showed a little bit. I emphasize a "little bit". You saw a few times where other HC's other than Holmgren and Shanny relayed every single O play into the QB. Maybe Martz and Walsh can bark out the plays a little faster than Shanny, eh? Shanny seemed to have a good sysem going in 96-98, then it fell apart pretty good, so what happened between then and now? You tell me. I'm looking for answers same as you.

Denver used to win a lot of playoff games with Dan Reeves in charge, Denver has been smoked in 4 of the last five playoff games since 1998, just totally smoked and humiliated, total embarrassments, one Div Title, one playoff win. That pisses me off!!! That had not happened to Denver in something like 30 years before Shanny went on his playoff fiasco run!.

So you tell me, my friend. Something has to pop. This can't go on forever. To only prove competitive in one playoff game in 8 years is not Bronco football. No way, no how. That is not Bronco football. We were once the most winningest playoff team ever, had the most AFC Championships ever. Both those earmarks have been lost under Shanahan. I can't tolerate that, either he makes up the ground lost, or we go another direction.


So you want to fire Shanahan huh. The difference between those 96-98teams and now- we had a QB who complete understood the system and could make plays when crap hit the fan. Remember the first couple of year under Shanahan weren't great either. If Plummer gets "it" then those winning ways will return. You need a stud under center to win the big one, or you need a defense that belong in the top 4 of all time.

[Cito Pelon]

Portis was one step out the Back Door, the Minute he first got off the plane in Denver...

Portis was NEVER a Bronco...

What kind of ignorance is that supposed to ignite? So I guess you don't like superb tailbacks? There's only a few of them come along once in a while. Portis is one of the best tailbacks come along in years and years.

[Cito Pelon]

Is it a stupid trade ,because of all the playoffs wins he lead us to?15638:rofl:

I don't know how to answer a meandering question. So I'll go with the standby answer again in caps - STUPID, STUPID, STUPID TRADE.

[BroncoBuff]

Woops, forgot about that. ;) :thanku:
Right - I'm glad you got it rolling though, because it hurt my head trying to follow it all and figure it out.

So here it is in a nutshell:

Clinton Portis, and our 2005 and 2006 1st-round picks

FOR....

Champ Bailey, Tatum Bell, Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall, Karl Paymah, Jay Cutler.

Astonishing.

[Cito Pelon]

So you want to fire Shanahan huh. The difference between those 96-98teams and now- we had a QB who complete understood the system and could make plays when crap hit the fan. Remember the first couple of year under Shanahan weren't great either. If Plummer gets "it" then those winning ways will return. You need a stud under center to win the big one, or you need a defense that belong in the top 4 of all time.

Bill Cowher went to and won playoff games and AFC Title games with Kordell Stewart, Neil O'Donnell, Tommy Maddox and the rookie Rothloisberger. If Shanny can't do that, then obviously that's not good enough, eh? Getting the stuffing kicked out of you in 4 of 5 playoff games since 1998 is ok with you? That hasn't happened to the Broncs since what, 1975? That's pathetic, and if Shanny can't do better than that this year, time to cut line. If you have a coach that hits a ceiling year after year after year, you have a problem.

[Cito Pelon]

Right - I'm glad you got it rolling though, because it hurt my head trying to follow it all and figure it out.

So here it is in a nutshell:

Clinton Portis, and our 2005 and 2006 1st-round picks

FOR....

Champ Bailey, Tatum Bell, Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall, Karl Paymah, Jay Cutler.

Astonishing.

No account, so far.

[watermock]

Ok...Portis whined about his contract from year one. Then year two. Are you blind? We gave hiim an offer honestly. He's averaged less than Bell. I gave you the stats. STFU. Not only that, he is a arented mule. He has a thousand more caried and is two years older at this point in the NFL.

go on. This is like Bob and Robinsons or other losers we have cut loose.

Noone cares except for idiots. Doesn't matter at all.

[Hogan11]

Portis is so yesterday, get over it already. Most of his personality cultists have bought his Redskin jersey and moved on to Washington by now.

[watermock]

Anysone who knew crap knew Big Ben knew he would be a great QB.

[watermock]

Look at the comments from two years ago.

[Cito Pelon]

Good night, all. Some of us have to keep the wheels of progress going on Sunday, and I'm one of them. Nice arguments by all, and I'm sure I'll bring Portis and Shanny up again, 'cause that's just the kind of hate to lose guy I am.

[SureShot]

I don't know how to answer a meandering question. So I'll go with the standby answer again in caps - STUPID, STUPID, STUPID TRADE.

Postseason data
Please read this fine print before using this data or sending questions or corrections.

Year Opp Result | RSH YD TD | REC YD TD
---------------------+-----------------+-----------------
2003 ind L,10-41 | 17 68 0 | 1 10 0
2005 tam W,17-10 | 16 53 1 | 1 -5 0
2005 sea L,10-20 | 17 41 0 | 2 11 0
---------------------+-----------------+-----------------
TOTAL | 50 162 1 | 4 16 0

Yep he's unstoppable!ROFL!

[SureShot]

Good night, all. Some of us have to keep the wheels of progress going on Sunday, and I'm one of them. Nice arguments by all, and I'm sure I'll bring Portis and Shanny up again, 'cause that's just the kind of hate to lose guy I am.


Here's what Mike Anderson has done:


Postseason data
Please read this fine print before using this data or sending questions or corrections.

Year Opp Result | RSH YD TD | REC YD TD
---------------------+-----------------+-----------------
2000 bal L,3-21 | 15 40 0 | 2 10 0
2005 nwe W,27-13 | 19 69 2 | 1 14 0
2005 pit L,17-34 | 9 36 1 | 3 11 0
---------------------+-----------------+-----------------
TOTAL | 43 145 3 | 6 35 0

Huge drop off.:wiggle:

[MechanicalBull]

Bill Cowher went to and won playoff games and AFC Title games with Kordell Stewart, Neil O'Donnell, Tommy Maddox and the rookie Rothloisberger. If Shanny can't do that, then obviously that's not good enough, eh? Getting the stuffing kicked out of you in 4 of 5 playoff games since 1998 is ok with you? That hasn't happened to the Broncs since what, 1975? That's pathetic, and if Shanny can't do better than that this year, time to cut line. If you have a coach that hits a ceiling year after year after year, you have a problem.

If we did fire Shanahan then who would you want? In my opinion there are only a couple head coaches that I think are equal or better than him. Denver has improved year after year since Jake has been here. Cowher won a lot of those games in the mid 90's to now with a great running game and a great D. You have to put pieces together and win as a team.

I'm not going to fire Shanahan over getting torched by Indy 2 yrs in a row cause Roc Alexander was horrible and the D forgot to tackle. I praise him for going out and upgrading our problem areas. We needed DB help after the first loss to Indy so he goes out and gets Champ, then we needed more DB help after our 2nd lost to the Colts so he draft 3 DBs in a row and two of them have the potential to turn out to be real good if they dont have a sophomore slump and who knows about Paymah. Then he knew we needed help at WR so he gets Walker and drafted Marshall and Hixon(rumors are he might be a DB though)

Hate to use the old saying but Rome wasn't built in a day. We could still use some more guys but I love our mix of vets and young guys. Look at the past few years teams like the Raiders, Eagles and Steelers were knocking at the door to the superbowl for a couple years before they finally made it.

[baja]

i'm not sure the upstairs area can directly relay anyway Cito. I think there is only one link to the QB.

Mock are you on the wagon, you're so nice lately?

[SureShot]

If we did fire Shanahan then who would you want? In my opinion there are only a couple head coaches that I think are equal or better than him. Denver has improved year after year since Jake has been here. Cowher won a lot of those games in the mid 90's to now with a great running game and a great D. You have to put pieces together and win as a team.

I'm not going to fire Shanahan over getting torched by Indy 2 yrs in a row cause Roc Alexander was horrible and the D forgot to tackle. I praise him for going out and upgrading our problem areas. We needed DB help after the first loss to Indy so he goes out and gets Champ, then we needed more DB help after our 2nd lost to the Colts so he draft 3 DBs in a row and two of them have the potential to turn out to be real good if they dont have a sophomore slump and who knows about Paymah. Then he knew we needed help at WR so he gets Walker and drafted Marshall and Hixon(rumors are he might be a DB though)

Hate to use the old saying but Rome wasn't built in a day. We could still use some more guys but I love our mix of vets and young guys. Look at the past few years teams like the Raiders, Eagles and Steelers were knocking at the door to the superbowl for a couple years before they finally made it.

Alot of losing between Super Bowls.



Postseason log

2004
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 20 - 17 vs. New York Jets
AFC Championship Game: lost 27 - 41 vs. New England Patriots
2002
AFC Wildcard Game: won 36 - 33 vs. Cleveland Browns
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 31 - 34 at Tennessee Titans
2001
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 27 - 10 vs. Baltimore Ravens
AFC Championship Game: lost 17 - 24 vs. New England Patriots
1997
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 7 - 6 vs. New England Patriots
AFC Championship Game: lost 21 - 24 vs. Denver Broncos
1996
AFC Wildcard Game: won 42 - 14 vs. Indianapolis Colts
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 3 - 28 at New England Patriots
1995
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 40 - 21 vs. Buffalo Bills
AFC Championship Game: won 20 - 16 vs. Indianapolis Colts
Super Bowl: lost 17 - 27 vs. Dallas Cowboys
1994
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 29 - 9 vs. Cleveland Browns
AFC Championship Game: lost 13 - 17 vs. San Diego Chargers
1993
AFC Wildcard Game: lost 24 - 27 at Kansas City Chiefs
1992
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 3 - 24 vs. Buffalo Bills
1989
AFC Wildcard Game: won 26 - 23 at Houston Oilers
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 23 - 24 at Denver Broncos
1984
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 24 - 17 at Denver Broncos
AFC Championship Game: lost 28 - 45 at Miami Dolphins
1983
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 10 - 38 at Los Angeles Raiders
1982
AFC Wildcard Game: lost 28 - 31 vs. San Diego Chargers

[MechanicalBull]

Alot of losing between Super Bowls.



Postseason log

2004
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 20 - 17 vs. New York Jets
AFC Championship Game: lost 27 - 41 vs. New England Patriots
2002
AFC Wildcard Game: won 36 - 33 vs. Cleveland Browns
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 31 - 34 at Tennessee Titans
2001
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 27 - 10 vs. Baltimore Ravens
AFC Championship Game: lost 17 - 24 vs. New England Patriots
1997
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 7 - 6 vs. New England Patriots
AFC Championship Game: lost 21 - 24 vs. Denver Broncos
1996
AFC Wildcard Game: won 42 - 14 vs. Indianapolis Colts
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 3 - 28 at New England Patriots
1995
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 40 - 21 vs. Buffalo Bills
AFC Championship Game: won 20 - 16 vs. Indianapolis Colts
Super Bowl: lost 17 - 27 vs. Dallas Cowboys
1994
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 29 - 9 vs. Cleveland Browns
AFC Championship Game: lost 13 - 17 vs. San Diego Chargers
1993
AFC Wildcard Game: lost 24 - 27 at Kansas City Chiefs
1992
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 3 - 24 vs. Buffalo Bills
1989
AFC Wildcard Game: won 26 - 23 at Houston Oilers
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 23 - 24 at Denver Broncos
1984
AFC Divisional Playoff: won 24 - 17 at Denver Broncos
AFC Championship Game: lost 28 - 45 at Miami Dolphins
1983
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 10 - 38 at Los Angeles Raiders
1982
AFC Wildcard Game: lost 28 - 31 vs. San Diego Chargers

I'm just saying you have to crawl before you learn to walk. Most teams are in the playoff at least a year or few years before they make it to the Superbowl. Does anyone really expect the Texans, Browns, 49ers or any constant losing team to suddenly make it to the Superbowl. Now I know it does happen and someone will point out the few times it did happen, but most teams do not go from 4-12 to 12-4 and Superbowl champs in one season.

I think we are making great strides to getting a ring plus building for the future and it looks like trading away Portis might have helped a lot since we got Bailey and Bell from just that trade alone.

[Odysseus]

I honestly believe Heimerdinger may prove to be the best off-season acquisition of 2006...and beyond.

I also think he'll be a head coach in the league...hopefully, after a few more extremely successful years here in Denver.

I hope Dennison is taking some serious notes.

[IHaveALight]

I found this on another forum, but I'll put it into my own words.

The First Denver Trade With Redskins:
Denver receives - Champ Bailey and a second rounder (Tatum Bell).

Washington receives - Clinton Portis.

The Second Denver Trade With Redskins:
Denver receives - Future first, (Which became #37 and #68) and #119 which was Brandon Marshall and a third rounder in '05 which became Karl Paymah. #37 was traded for Javon Walker, and #68 was packaged with #15 to get Jay Cutler at #11.

Washington receives - Jason Campbell.

So in retrospect:

We "gave up" Clinton Portis, and the #25 which was used on Jason Campbell for players and picks that helped us get the following:

Champ Bailey, Tatum Bell, Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall, Karl Paymah, Jay Cutler.

Not a bad few years in the front office, huh?

Actually, we traded "our" 1st rounder #29 for #37 and #68. We got pick #22 from Washington. So Walker and Sheffler didn't come from Washington.

Really we gave up Portis, our 1st in 2005 and our 2nd and 3rd from 2006 for Champ, Bell, Paymah, Cutler and Marshall. I can't really remember for sure, but I think we also gave Washington a 4th rounder last year.

[Play2win]

I don't know how to answer a meandering question. So I'll go with the standby answer again in caps - STUPID, STUPID, STUPID TRADE.
So, everybody else in the WORLD is Wrong, and you're right, RIGHT ??

[wabbit]

I hope Dennison is taking some serious notes.

Ya know, after watching his progression as a coach for a few years, I've got to give some respect for Dennison...He certainly has earned it from Shanahan.

He's a detail guy...very focused on the mechanics of performance.

He's always been an underdog...failing three times to break onto the Buffalo Bills roster before finally gaining a LB job here with Denver and playing very well for several years here.

Never gives up at anything & was one of Alex Gibbs' most dedicated protege's.

Largely credited for the success of Matt Lepsis at LT...a real stretch when it was first suggested...even to Lepsis.

[Pendejo]

Dammit Wabbit...post more.

Seriously. Do it.

[IHaveALight]

Actually, we traded "our" 1st rounder #29 for #37 and #68. We got pick #22 from Washington. So Walker and Sheffler didn't come from Washington.

Really we gave up Portis, our 1st in 2005 and our 2nd and 3rd from 2006 for Champ, Bell, Paymah, Cutler and Marshall. I can't really remember for sure, but I think we also gave Washington a 4th rounder last year.

Actually I think I'm wrong too. What did we trade to Atlata to get to pick #15? I was thinking it was our 2nd and 3rd, but we drafted Sheffler with our original 2nd. Now I'm thinking we gave up a 3rd this year and 4th next year? Plus we traded #68 to move up too #11.

So again, we gave up Portis, our 1st in 2005, 3rd in 2006 and 4th in 2007 for Champ, Bell, Paymah, Cutler and Marshall. And still we possibly gave up that 4th rounder last year to Washington?

Sorry my memory is horrible and I still may be off a little. But this is a lot closer to what really resulted from the Washington trades.

[Kaylore]

Nothing like a "fire Shanahan" thread.

[youcandoit1687]

You're nuts. You don't dump an injury-free back that has the best YPC in NFL history in his first two years for a CB, then pay the CB more. That's just stupid, my friend. Find me one time in NFL history a team has traded the best YPC tailback in NFL history. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Lets's capitalize it - STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. One of the dumbest trades I've ever seen.

there isnt a circumstance in history like this. we are a very VERY unique team in that we are great at finding RBs. from portis to gary to droughns to MA to TD,etc. On the other hand, we have had recent problems at CB(deltha oneal specifically). as i showed, we got about the same production out of TB/MA this year(9 more TDs and a few more carries) as we did in 03. so we basically got champ for what 6 million. IMO, we need champ more than we did portis and ever will need portis. dont get me wrong, hes going to be a great RB with saunders, but we didnt need him

i ask u...when was the last time that the redskins made a smart trade?

[Breck Bronc]

i ask u...when was the last time that the redskins made a smart trade?http://www.hamptonroads.com/images/skinvictorybig.jpg

for

http://www.photofile.com/Photos/Photos_Of_The_Day/09_08_05/LaveranuesColes01.jpg

was a "rape" for the Redskins.

[Kaylore]

No doubt. Moss was huge for them. And Portis hasn't sucked by any means.

[Ballhawk]

http://www.hamptonroads.com/images/skinvictorybig.jpg

for

http://www.photofile.com/Photos/Photos_Of_The_Day/09_08_05/LaveranuesColes01.jpg

was a "rape" for the Redskins.

Really? Coles did put up over 1200 yards in back to back seasons for the Redskins and caught 90 balls for them the year before being traded. The Jets QB situation last year was as bad as any in the league. Their QBs threw 11 TDs on the year and Coles caught almost half (5).

Funny how a guy can have one career year and he is the best thing since sliced bread...

[elsid13]

Nothing like a "fire Shanahan" thread.


It really can become Senator McCarthy style thread if were lucky. I nominate Mock to be our J Edger Hoover

[Tombstone RJ]

Ya know, after watching his progression as a coach for a few years, I've got to give some respect for Dennison...He certainly has earned it from Shanahan.

He's a detail guy...very focused on the mechanics of performance.

He's always been an underdog...failing three times to break onto the Buffalo Bills roster before finally gaining a LB job here with Denver and playing very well for several years here.

Never gives up at anything & was one of Alex Gibbs' most dedicated protege's.

Largely credited for the success of Matt Lepsis at LT...a real stretch when it was first suggested...even to Lepsis.

A few years back, I told everyone here that keeping Dennison and letting Alex Gibbs go was absolutely the best thing for the Broncos, in the long run. Glad to see I'm not the only one who recognizes his dedication and potential.

[-Slap-]

Really? Coles did put up over 1200 yards in back to back seasons for the Redskins and caught 90 balls for them the year before being traded. The Jets QB situation last year was as bad as any in the league. Their QBs threw 11 TDs on the year and Coles caught almost half (5).

Funny how a guy can have one career year and he is the best thing since sliced bread...
I tend to agree with Ballhawk here. When the Moss for Coles deal went down, conventional wisdom (and whatever passes for that around here) suggested the Jets got the upper hand in that trade.

Not to diminish the Herculean effort by Santana this season, not to mention the resulting draft slots he screwed us out of with that effort.

[Ballhawk]

Well next year is really the year that we will see where the scale tips in the CP for Champ trade and it will have very little to do with each player. Both those guys are proven to be at very good at their jobs. It will be Bell/Dayne vs Springs/Rodgers.

When a team trades away a high profile player then they are saying, "we can replace this guy".

Springs had a tremendous first year with the Skins and was one of the top CBs in the game in 2004. Last year he fell off and will be 31 this year. Rodgers had a decent 1st year so we will see how this plays out.

On the other hand we also replaced a young star with Vets that came in and got the job done in RD and MA. However, we go into a third year with the same question marks at RB. If Bell or Dayne become a solid starter for the next 3 years then we too will have a star player and a solid starter.

Really the trade is pretty close to even.

As for the 2nd trade, we will have to see if Cutler or Campbell is the better QB

[Breck Bronc]

Really? Coles did put up over 1200 yards in back to back seasons for the Redskins and caught 90 balls for them the year before being traded. The Jets QB situation last year was as bad as any in the league. Their QBs threw 11 TDs on the year and Coles caught almost half (5).

Funny how a guy can have one career year and he is the best thing since sliced bread...It's hard to argue 1,480 vs. 850 and 9 vs. 5 after the trade. And Moss had a "career year" in 2003 with 10 touchdowns and 1,100 yards. He also showed he's a big game player in the 2004 playoffs vs. San Diego and Pittsburgh.

Coles hasn't been the same since injuring his foot in 2004. He's now a possesion receiver while Moss is a gamebreaker with a nose for the end zone. Big win for the Redskins in that challenge trade.

[MechanicalBull]

It's hard to argue 1,480 vs. 850 and 9 vs. 5 after the trade. And Moss had a "career year" in 2003 with 10 touchdowns and 1,100 yards. He also showed he's a big game player in the 2004 playoffs vs. San Diego and Pittsburgh.

Coles hasn't been the same since injuring his foot in 2004. He's now a possesion receiver while Moss is a gamebreaker with a nose for the end zone. Big win for the Redskins in that challenge trade.

You're right, Coles hasn't played at the same level since he got his nagging foot injury awhile back and the Jets went through so many QBs. When the trade happened I thought it was a no brainer for the Jets since it was a straight up deal and at the time Coles was the better WR. I like Coles and think he is a good receiver but he doesn't scare me and I don't consider him a true #1, I look at him more like a 1A and think he needs someone on the other side and McCareins is that guy.

Moss needs to use his speed and is a big play threat and he wasn't being used like that his last yr as a Jet cause Herm really didn't go for deep passes and after Penningtons injury he couldn't throw past 5 yds.

[Jason in LA]

I found this on another forum, but I'll put it into my own words.

The First Denver Trade With Redskins:
Denver receives - Champ Bailey and a second rounder (Tatum Bell).

Washington receives - Clinton Portis.

The Second Denver Trade With Redskins:
Denver receives - Future first, (Which became #37 and #68) and #119 which was Brandon Marshall and a third rounder in '05 which became Karl Paymah. #37 was traded for Javon Walker, and #68 was packaged with #15 to get Jay Cutler at #11.

Washington receives - Jason Campbell.

So in retrospect:

We "gave up" Clinton Portis, and the #25 which was used on Jason Campbell for players and picks that helped us get the following:

Champ Bailey, Tatum Bell, Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall, Karl Paymah, Jay Cutler.

Not a bad few years in the front office, huh?

I'd say the Broncos made some great deals, but lets not get carried away. They gave up more than just Portis and the 25th pick to get those players.

[SkinRamon]

Really the trade is pretty close to even.

As for the 2nd trade, we will have to see if Cutler or Campbell is the better QB
Congrats to all you guys on a fine draft. Since the Redskins as of late don't really use the draft much I'd say unequivocally that you guys had a far superior draft to ours! ;) No real debate there!

In the back of my head I too will compare the progress and development of Cutler and Campbell. Campbell's had a year more than Cutler --- but no game time and he is learning a new offense under Al Saunders...so in a way they're in the same respective phase in their young careers.

[Rocket 7]

It really can become Senator McCarthy style thread if were lucky. I nominate Mock to be our J Edger Hoover
Dresses in womens clothing?

[Ratboy]

This is what i've recovered from this thead.

Cito is a moron and has taken the cake from Gonzo.

[watermock]

We made so many moves it's hard to keep it straight. Ironically, if the Skins had the season we expected (5-15 spot), we probably wouldn't of been so active. To get Cutler and Walker and still have 6 other picks was phenomenal. More than likely, when it's time to change drivers, we will get something for Jake as well. He might be given his release, or be able to say where he wants to go, but that's over the horizon a bit at this point.

[youcandoit1687]

Congrats to all you guys on a fine draft. Since the Redskins as of late don't really use the draft much I'd say unequivocally that you guys had a far superior draft to ours! ;) No real debate there!

In the back of my head I too will compare the progress and development of Cutler and Campbell. Campbell's had a year more than Cutler --- but no game time and he is learning a new offense under Al Saunders...so in a way they're in the same respective phase in their young careers.

hey skinramon, who do u think got the better of the clinton portis/champ bailey&tatum bell trade? whats the general consensus with ur fanbase?

[SkinRamon]

hey skinramon, who do u think got the better of the clinton portis/champ bailey&tatum bell trade? whats the general consensus with ur fanbase?
It a mixed bag of answers all beginning with the only central agreement being the fact that we are incredibly happy with Portis but ---- almost all grumbles involve the question of whether the 2nd rounder we sent you was necessary?

Some say, and I agree, that the answer is yes, because Gibbs targetted Portis specifically to be his franchise running back around which he'd build his offense, and he wanted Denver only to deal with Washington in the event that Portis was deemed expendable--- therefore our very high 2nd round pick in 2004 would suffice to ensure we had Shanahan's attention...

While of course this is not the only viewpoint, others think that we should've have let more time pass and push hard for a simple even-player trade --- given that Denver had a very strong need at cornerback.

Ultimately Redskins fans are still very happy with how Gibbs has turned the franchise around from consistently being Philly and Dallas' toilet paper into a playoff-contender in 2 years. That doesn't happen without Portis.

And as far as Tatum Bell goes, this year's gonna be a telling year for the on-going debate that is the Bailey/Portis trade...right now -- the trade fairly even --- but if Bell establishes himself as a featured back it's a whole 'nother story.

And let me predict that there'll be inevitable discussion over the careers of Cutler and Campbell..

[Kaylore]

And let me predict that there'll be inevitable discussion over the careers of Cutler and Campbell..
Good over all post with specific emphasis on this part. I'm willing to be that will be the biggest story three to four years down the road.

For what it's worth, I don't see why people need to look for a "loser" in the Portis-Bailey deal. I feel like both teams got what they wanted, so we should be happy that teams were able to work together.

By the way, what's the word on Campbell anyway?

[elsid13]

There really hasn't been much about Campbell, expect he now the #2 QB on the team. That so he can get more snaps in practice The Skins staff have said that if Brunell goes down for long time, Todd Collins will get the starts. Not a judgement on Campbell but rather Gibbs like veteran QBs to guide the team

[youcandoit1687]

Good over all post with specific emphasis on this part. I'm willing to be that will be the biggest story three to four years down the road.

For what it's worth, I don't see why people need to look for a "loser" in the Portis-Bailey deal. I feel like both teams got what they wanted, so we should be happy that teams were able to work together.

By the way, what's the word on Campbell anyway?

ur right. ive been trying to tell cito that but i think i sort of strayed from that point. i say that we are the provider of RBs out of nowhere for teams in this league. we had had problems with CB(deltha was the last straw) so we made a deal just like we did with the browns last year for reuben. we needed a CB, they needed a RB. i would have been fine with it that way really but the 41 just solidified it for me.

[Cito Pelon]

Nothing like a "fire Shanahan" thread.

Just stirring things up a bit, for the most part. I do get sick of the Shanny nut hugging.

[SkinRamon]

Good over all post with specific emphasis on this part. I'm willing to be that will be the biggest story three to four years down the road.

For what it's worth, I don't see why people need to look for a "loser" in the Portis-Bailey deal. I feel like both teams got what they wanted, so we should be happy that teams were able to work together. I agree. I'm glad both franchises are happy and that in some way each team's destinies are tied to the trades we made in 2004 and 2005...
By the way, what's the word on Campbell anyway? These days, Monday-Friday, Jason Campbell is hitting the books (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/13/AR2006051300895.html). The Saunders offense is pretty damn exhaustive...

[youcandoit1687]

Just stirring things up a bit, for the most part. I do get sick of the Shanny nut hugging.

u must have missed something predraft. it has been a lot of that recently because it is pretty consensus adoration for the cutler/walker/entire draft but before that, many were saying...ill be jumping off a bridge when we pick the corner whose maid told shanny's kid about who hasnt been able to walk for three years but showed potential in high school. thats not an exact quote but similar

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . ..And as far as Tatum Bell goes, this year's gonna be a telling year for the on-going debate that is the Bailey/Portis trade...right now -- the trade fairly even --- but if Bell establishes himself as a featured back it's a whole 'nother story. ..

If Bell establishes himself then I'll think about maybe possibly changing my mind. Or maybe not. ;D

[elsid13]

If Bell establishes himself then I'll think about maybe possibly changing my mind. Or maybe not. ;D


Just out of curiosity; have you hit 10,000 posts at the FireShanahan.com website yet? ;D

[Cito Pelon]

u must have missed something predraft. it has been a lot of that recently because it is pretty consensus adoration for the cutler/walker/entire draft but before that, many were saying...ill be jumping off a bridge when we pick the corner whose maid told shanny's kid about who hasnt been able to walk for three years but showed potential in high school. thats not an exact quote but similar

I figured the team would have a decent draft. I give credit where it's due, I give criticism where it's due. I bust off rants just 'cause I like to.

[youcandoit1687]

I figured the team would have a decent draft. I give credit where it's due, I give criticism where it's due. I bust off rants just 'cause I like to.

nothing wrong with that, it shows passion. im just saying there was a lot of busting predraft by lots.

[Cito Pelon]

Just out of curiosity; have you hit 10,000 posts at the FireShanahan.com website yet? ;D

I thought that was a mythical creature. If he has tons of success getting the team back to being competetive in the playoffs, I'm all for it.

[watermock]

You should register Cito, it could be a regular circle jerk.

[Cito Pelon]

You should register Cito, it could be a regular circle jerk.

Go play in the highway, wino.

[elsid13]

Go play in the highway, wino.


I can just feel the love.

[watermock]

ooooh...when logic fails, insult. FYI before your lame ass dragged in here, I was lukewarm about the trade, but this was over two years ago now. I didn't make the trade but we have consistently come out on top with trades with Washington IMO. Noone has said that Portis isn't a great back. One other thing...I was the only people estatic about the Portis draft choice when almost everyone considered him a situational back, but you weren't here for that either.

That's what makes PFT's comments about Denver not caring about draft picks. That's Gibbs. One pick in the first 4 rounds. We had 6. Of course he doesn't mention Cutler or our best draft in awhile last year despite moving the #1.

Portis pissed Shanahan as much about his flavor clown antics as his dissatisfaction with his contract.

[Kaylore]

These days, Monday-Friday, Jason Campbell is hitting the books (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/13/AR2006051300895.html). The Saunders offense is pretty damn exhaustive...
Hilarious! Well at least Campbell is used to learning new offenses every year. I'd imagine that will make things a little bit easier for him. Saunders is a good O-coordinator. He'll get some points on the board for you.

[MechanicalBull]

For what it's worth, I don't see why people need to look for a "loser" in the Portis-Bailey deal. I feel like both teams got what they wanted, so we should be happy that teams were able to work together.


I agree, Yes everyone can go on about Denver getting better value and so on and they are probably right, but both teams are in very good spots. We have most of our starters coming back, plus Walker, some rookies and Heimerdinger. The Skins have a lot of their guys coming back, plus Lloyd, Randel El(eventhough I don't see what people see in him) and Al Saunders.

And To be honest the Skins have a much easier road to the Superbowl than we do. Now I think Denver has a much better team all around but having to go through maybe the toughest division in football plus the Pats, Colts, Steelers, Dolphins, Bengals, and so on.

[rubaiyat]

OK, ok, I was testing knowledge. You showed a little bit. I emphasize a "little bit". You saw a few times where other HC's other than Holmgren and Shanny relayed every single O play into the QB. Maybe Martz and Walsh can bark out the plays a little faster than Shanny, eh? Shanny seemed to have a good sysem going in 96-98, then it fell apart pretty good, so what happened between then and now? You tell me. I'm looking for answers same as you.

Denver used to win a lot of playoff games with Dan Reeves in charge, Denver has been smoked in 4 of the last five playoff games since 1998, just totally smoked and humiliated, total embarrassments, one Div Title, one playoff win. That pisses me off!!! That had not happened to Denver in something like 30 years before Shanny went on his playoff fiasco run!.

So you tell me, my friend. Something has to pop. This can't go on forever. To only prove competitive in one playoff game in 8 years is not Bronco football. No way, no how. That is not Bronco football. We were once the most winningest playoff team ever, had the most AFC Championships ever. Both those earmarks have been lost under Shanahan. I can't tolerate that, either he makes up the ground lost, or we go another direction.


AFC's changed since then.

There was a time not to long ago where the Superbowl was decided in the NFC championship game. 14 years straight. The AFC simply couldn't hold a candle to the cream of the NFC.

Now, the AFC is the favored conference. It's a tougher road, and that means you gotta take your lumps.

[Play2win]

Dan Reeves was not the reason we won those Playoff games. Elway was...

Reeves was the reason we DIDN'T WIN any Superbowls...

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

Cito please go back to the "other" board. This is a posative place, we don't need your BS here.

[baja]

Cito is from Mars

[watermock]

Hilarious! Well at least Campbell is used to learning new offenses every year. I'd imagine that will make things a little bit easier for him. Saunders is a good O-coordinator. He'll get some points on the board for you.

I have to give Bob credit. The team has a completely new coach and offensive staff, and everyone on the defensive staff is new except Goonther, who was fired in K.C. just like new coach Art Shell at Oakland, who actually had some success.

I don't know much about Cambell, but I'll take Jake/Cutler at this point honestly over Brunell and Campbell.

[Edskins_RVA]

And To be honest the Skins have a much easier road to the Superbowl than we do. Now I think Denver has a much better team all around but having to go through maybe the toughest division in football plus the Pats, Colts, Steelers, Dolphins, Bengals, and so on.
Are you serious?! Have you seen the NFC East lately?! I'm not discounting the AFC West as an extrememly tough division (if not the toughest), but there is no "Raiders-equivalent" weak link in the NFC East right now..

[freak6]

Isn't it bad enough we went genocidal and nearly whiped an entire culture off the face of of the planet. What if there was a German Soccer team that represented Berlin in thier most watched game ever, and they were called the Flaming Kikes??? Fk the "Redskins".

Shanny must have them on speed dial. Once again the "white man" Shanny is taking advantage of the ignorant, trusting, and giving "chief" of the Skins? In this case, keep it up!!!

[BroncoInferno]

You're nuts. You don't dump an injury-free back that has the best YPC in NFL history in his first two years for a CB, then pay the CB more. That's just stupid, my friend. Find me one time in NFL history a team has traded the best YPC tailback in NFL history. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Lets's capitalize it - STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. One of the dumbest trades I've ever seen.

Wrong. The production of our running game has not decreased since Portis left, and the TD argument is stupid, because you cannot quantify how many TDs Bailey has PREVENTED, which is just as important.

[youcandoit1687]

cito pelon, waht trades do u like that we have made, which ones dont u like? im interested to see if u just hate our entire FO or just this trade. i dont know anybody else who hated this trade this much. u must love portis or hate bailey or something. what if tatum produces say 1200 yards this yer?

[Tombstone RJ]

Are you serious?! Have you seen the NFC East lately?! I'm not discounting the AFC West as an extrememly tough division (if not the toughest), but there is no "Raiders-equivalent" weak link in the NFC East right now..

NFCE is tuff simply because Gibbs and Parcells are knocking heads, just like the good'ol days. Philly is still a very good franchise with a good coach and good QB. The Giants are the real wild card of the division. With Manning, Barber, Shockey, Toomer and Burres on offense and the addition of Arrington to the defense, the Gmen can be a very good team.

Yah, I like the NFCE, its gonna be a fun division to watch, and it's perhaps, pound for pound, the toughest division in the NFL.

As for the AFCW, the wild card team is definitely the chargers. The faiders are gonna be the bottom feeders. As for the chefs, eh, we won't know anything until that defense is put together under Edwards. This is the way the AFCW stacks up, top to bottom: Broncos, Chargers (could switch these two), Chiefs, Raiders.

[Edskins_RVA]

NFCE is tuff simply because Gibbs and Parcells are knocking heads, just like the good'ol days. Philly is still a very good franchise with a good coach and good QB. The Giants are the real wild card of the division. With Manning, Barber, Shockey, Toomer and Burres on offense and the addition of Arrington to the defense, the Gmen can be a very good team.

Yah, I like the NFCE, its gonna be a fun division to watch, and it's perhaps, pound for pound, the toughest division in the NFL.

As for the AFCW, the wild card team is definitely the chargers. The faiders are gonna be the bottom feeders. As for the chefs, eh, we won't know anything until that defense is put together under Edwards. This is the way the AFCW stacks up, top to bottom: Broncos, Chargers (could switch these two), Chiefs, Raiders.
Thanks for the objective response! :thumbs:

I agree totally with your assessment.. I also think the Chargers will be your toughest rival this season.

Every NFCE game is going to be a slugfest this year. I'm looking forward to all the match ups, no matter the team. Hopefully Dallas will take the hard end of it.. It definitely reminds of "the ole' days" of the NFC Beasts.. :strong:

[coryt]

I've been trying to remember what was involved with that Jason Campbell trade for last year. Put all that together, and Danny Snyder should be squeelin like a pig!!

[Edskins_RVA]

I wish people would finally realize that it is officially "cliche" to bag on Snyder.. Say what you want about the guy, but his one and only overriding mission is to improve the team.

Has he made numerous mistakes? Of course, all young billionaires do..;D But do not doubt his desire to see the Redkins add more Lombardi's to the case. He will do and spend whatever it takes to make it happen. I'm not sure all other franchises can say that about their owners..

Not to mention, the current Redskins (team) are run by Joe Gibbs, not Snyder. Snyder runs the Redskins "business". Gibbs is the only person with more juice that DantheMan.. :strong:

[Tombstone RJ]

I've been trying to remember what was involved with that Jason Campbell trade for last year. Put all that together, and Danny Snyder should be squeelin like a pig!!

The Broncos traded the Skins their #24 for the Skin's 2006 #1 and Third round pick, I think. The Skins 2006 first round pick ended up being the #22, which the Broncos traded to SanFran for additional picks...

[Tombstone RJ]

I wish people would finally realize that it is officially "cliche" to bag on Snyder.. Say what you want about the guy, but his one and only overriding mission is to improve the team.

Has he made numerous mistakes? Of course, all young billionaires do..;D But do not doubt his desire to see the Redkins add more Lombardi's to the case. He will do and spend whatever it takes to make it happen. I'm not sure all other franchises can say that about their owners..

Not to mention, the current Redskins (team) are run by Joe Gibbs, not Snyder. Snyder runs the Redskins "business". Gibbs is the only person with more juice that DantheMan.. :strong:

I think Danny is learning. He's aggressive in FA and its burned him in the past. But he's got Gibbs running the football operations so he's already learned to distribute his power.

I contend that the best owner in the NFL, hands down, is Pat Bowlen. The reasons are abvious...

[BroncoBuff]

Actually, we traded "our" 1st rounder #29 for #37 and #68. We got pick #22 from Washington. So Walker and Sheffler didn't come from Washington.

Really we gave up Portis, our 1st in 2005 and our 2nd and 3rd from 2006 for Champ, Bell, Paymah, Cutler and Marshall. I can't really remember for sure, but I think we also gave Washington a 4th rounder last year.
You missed the point, 13 ... Requiem was tracking ALL the trades Shanny has made. Not just the two Redskins trades, but also the Jets, 49ers, Falcons and Packers trades, too.

And we pointed out on page 3 of this thread that he inadvertantly omitted we gave up our 2006 1st rounder (#29 overall: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1113801&postcount=62 ) So when you add all this up, here's what you get:



Clinton Portis and the 2005 and 2006 1st-round picksfor...Champ Bailey, Tatum Bell, Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall, Karl Paymah, Jay Cutler.Astonishing.

[BroncoBuff]

The Javon Walker pick came from the 49ers... it was their second rounder, #37 (for our 1st rounder from Wash, #22, plus we got another pick, I think Brandon Marshall)....

Scheffler was our own 2nd round pick, not from any trades.

[SoonerBronco]

No way you dump the RB with the best YPC in NFL history in his first 2 years for a CB over salary issues - then pay the CB more. 30 td's in 2 years, excellent back in the red zone, you can't find those every day. A possible top-ten ever back, and you trade him for a CB? Sheesh, that was stupid. If both Bell can become a great back, and if Champ can play well in big games, I'll amend "stupid" to "even."

Has he not played good in big games so far??? Portis was a tard and beginning to become very full of himself. Champ is unselfish and a team player. I'd take him over Portis anyday.

[BroncoBuff]

I think this is mostly correct - if you want to follow who the other teams got from all these trades ...

The 49ers got Manny Lawson at 22 ...
(and they also had a 3rd rounder from us somehow they later shipped to St. Louis, who took Claude Wroten)
The Jets got Nick Mangold at 29 ...
The Rams got Tye Hill at 15 and our 4th rounder (Dominique Byrd)
And of course the Falcons traded the 29 to the Jets (above) pick for John Abraham

The Redskins got Jason Campbell last year, but we got the #22 this year (above) and definitely the Brandon Marshall pick.

Dumervil was our own 4th rounder, Hixon was compensatory for either Kenoy Kennedy, Spragan or Herndon.

[Florida_Bronco]

I wish people would finally realize that it is officially "cliche" to bag on Snyder.. Say what you want about the guy, but his one and only overriding mission is to improve the team.

Has he made numerous mistakes? Of course, all young billionaires do..;D But do not doubt his desire to see the Redkins add more Lombardi's to the case. He will do and spend whatever it takes to make it happen. I'm not sure all other franchises can say that about their owners..

Not to mention, the current Redskins (team) are run by Joe Gibbs, not Snyder. Snyder runs the Redskins "business". Gibbs is the only person with more juice that DantheMan.. :strong:

I gotta agree here, because you make a good point. I used to bag on Synder alot, but it's obvious he wants a winning team. He may f**k up alot, but you can't question his desire to win.

[youcandoit1687]

I gotta agree here, because you make a good point. I used to bag on Synder alot, but it's obvious he wants a winning team. He may **** up alot, but you can't question his desire to win.

well put. be glad u have someone who is over aggressive as opposed to someone like the York family who encourages mediocrity by not wanting top picks but never supplying the team with FAs to get it done. although they did draft pretty well this year

[ozomulsion]

well put. be glad u have someone who is over aggressive as opposed to someone like the York family who encourages mediocrity by not wanting top picks but never supplying the team with FAs to get it done. although they did draft pretty well this year

What team does the York family own?

[baja]

What team does the York family own?

They have that new York family team

[youcandoit1687]

san francisco, theyre notorious for chasing off high salaries and just being cheap with the team. ive been meaning to ask tim(mcdonald, my coach) what they were like. i believe they inherited it and dont have any interest in it or something. i think that other cheap owners include(d) the cardinals guy, cincinatti and buffalo since theyre small market. teams like that.

[ozomulsion]

They have that new York family team

Which one?