Fans respond to Lelie print/video

[Needa Pass Rush]

http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_129124506.html

[brncs_fan]

Fairly mixed reactions. I am not sure where I stand on the issue. A part of me wants to see what he can do this year lined up with Smith and Walker in the slot. The other part says trade him to keep him out of KC, Oakland, or SD to keep him from going Kennison on us. I would say that I am leaning towards the trade part though.

[Needa Pass Rush]

More Cashlie reading.

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/2006/05/ashley-lelie-broncos080506.html

[Needa Pass Rush]

OT: Bulldogs collide. Remember this hit. Ben Watson has some wheels!

http://www.denverpostplus.com/galleries/broncos2005/bailygal1/16.jpg


Champ in a better posture. Avatar anyone?
This looks like what I thought was the turning point in the Championship game.

http://www.denverpostplus.com/galleries/broncos2005/bailygal1/1.jpg

[Ballhawk]

More Cashlie reading.

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/2006/05/ashley-lelie-broncos080506.html

Shanny is not going to trade him to a division rival for a damn 2nd day pick. Do these writers even think before typing. Lelie can holdout if he wants, it really will have zero effect on the team. Once training camp starts I doubt they give him a passing thought. David Terrell is just as talented as Ashley is and seems to have his head on straight. Between Walker and him they should be able to give Denver the same numbers it got from Lelie and Adams last year. The only reason I would want to see Lelie traded is so he doesn't get a SB ring when we win it this year. That would be a travesty.

[BroncoFiend]

Shanny is not going to trade him to a division rival for a damn 2nd day pick. Do these writers even think before typing. Lelie can holdout if he wants, it really will have zero effect on the team. Once training camp starts I doubt they give him a passing thought. David Terrell is just as talented as Ashley is and seems to have his head on straight. Between Walker and him they should be able to give Denver the same numbers it got from Lelie and Adams last year. The only reason I would want to see Lelie traded is so he doesn't get a SB ring when we win it this year. That would be a travesty.

It will have no effect outside of taking away the best #3 reciever in the game.

I wish Shanny cold just sit down and tell the guy that he will get his touches. With Rod, Walker and Lelie, it would be real hard not to find ways to get all three on the field at once. I mean how can you cover all of them?

[Arkie]

Ashley and Javon were picked 19th and 20th in the 2002 draft. Ashley has more receptions and yards in his career. Javon has more TDs and money. Javon also had the better QB. The separation between these two isn't as big as everyone seems to think.

[watermock]

He acts like Walker stole his job...well I don't hear Walker whining, he's going to start out as a #2, starting, just like Lelie. Lilly started whining a long time before we signed Walker. Walker probably won't start right away either. All Lilly managed to do was convince Denver to get Walker at all cost. He accellerated the process.

Remember Issac Bruce and Tory Holt? Someone has to be the #2. I'm getting sick as hell over this crybaby.
http://www.bangcartoon.com/wp-content/avatars/TO2.jpg

[azbroncfan]

I think shanny will keep him unless there is a good trade for him which looks like there isn't. I think shanny would prove a point and have him sit out which would cost him a lot of money and he would have to sit a year, then he could make him a RFA and tender him for a first round pick.

[BroncoFiend]

Ashley and Javon were picked 19th and 20th in the 2002 draft. Ashley has more receptions and yards in his career. Javon has more TDs and money. Javon also had the better QB. The separation between these two isn't as big as everyone seems to think.

I'm sorry but you're a little off on that one.

Here are the totals:

Lelie Totals:
Games - 64
Yards - 3007
Receptions - 168
TDs - 12

Walker Totals:
Games - 48
Yards - 2444
Receptions - 157
TDs - 22

Do you see one glaring difference in their stats? I'll give you a hint...it's GAMES PLAYED!

[Ballhawk]

It will have no effect outside of taking away the best #3 reciever in the game.

I wish Shanny cold just sit down and tell the guy that he will get his touches. With Rod, Walker and Lelie, it would be real hard not to find ways to get all three on the field at once. I mean how can you cover all of them?

Do you really think that Lelie is built to play a slot WR? We don't play a run and shoot and as a #3 WR I would prefer not to see him in there on 3rd and 5+. Lelies' game is to stretch the field and is better suited to do that on 1st and 2nd downs when playaction is believable. I do not care how talented someone is if they are playing out of position. It is like taking the best backup Center in the game and telling him to go play tackle. What I do not understand is why NE, Philly and GB did not go after Lelie a little harder. He is a shoe in for 1000+ yards on those teams. Of course Lelie staying away factored in heavy IMO. Just like Indy soured on getting Jones from Chicago because he was working out away from the team.

Also I would much prefer to get a guy involved in the offense that is going to be here in 2007

[Rock Chalk]

I'm sorry but you're a little off on that one.

Here are the totals:

Lelie Totals:
Games - 64
Yards - 3007
Receptions - 168
TDs - 12

Walker Totals:
Games - 48
Yards - 2444
Receptions - 157
TDs - 22

Do you see one glaring difference in their stats? I'll give you a hint...it's GAMES PLAYED!

Lets look at this a little closer:

64 games, 3007 yards for Lelie = 46.98 yards per game (47 ypg)

48 games, 2444 yards for Walker = 50.9 yards (51 ypg).

Lelies yards per catch is 17.89 ypc

Walker yards per catch is 15.56

Lelie gets 2.625 catches per game played.

Walker gets 3.27 catches per game played.

So, per game basis, we can see 4 more yards per game, less than 1 more catch per game and 2 less yards per catch.

Keep in mind that Walker played in a pass heavy offense in Green Bay with one of the all time gun slingers throwing him the ball and you get more TDs.

The only real difference between the two, Walker had Favre and Lelie had Plummer.

Lelie in Green Bay is likely to have put up bigger numbers than Walker has.

So what the **** is all the hub bub about?

[Ballhawk]

All good points Alec until you factor in games to TD ratio. Of cource the argument could be made that GB calls more plays to WR in the redzone tahn we do. We seem to prefer to run them in, where Farve has no problem going three straight pass plays from the 1 yard line to pad his stats (always pissed me off when I had Ahman Green on my fantasy team).

[fontaine]

Lets look at this a little closer:

64 games, 3007 yards for Lelie = 46.98 yards per game (47 ypg)

48 games, 2444 yards for Walker = 50.9 yards (51 ypg).

Lelies yards per catch is 17.89 ypc

Walker yards per catch is 15.56

Lelie gets 2.625 catches per game played.

Walker gets 3.27 catches per game played.

So, per game basis, we can see 4 more yards per game, less than 1 more catch per game and 2 less yards per catch.

Keep in mind that Walker played in a pass heavy offense in Green Bay with one of the all time gun slingers throwing him the ball and you get more TDs.

The only real difference between the two, Walker had Favre and Lelie had Plummer.

Lelie in Green Bay is likely to have put up bigger numbers than Walker has.

So what the **** is all the hub bub about?

Yeah Walker also had to share the ball with Donald Driver who was their possession WR, Robert Ferguson, Bubba Franks and Ahman Green catching the ball.

The difference is Walker got open and played against the primary CB while Lelie was still getting jammed off the line and outmuscled in the red zone.

Like you said, it's all hub bub, no big deal. Walker will have to prove his worth here first.

The only clear cut distinction though is that Walker got his opportunity and became a starter. Lelie got his opportunities and is still a glorified slot WR.

[BroncoInferno]

Javon also had the better QB.

Nope. Favre is not a better QB than Plummer at this point of his career. He's not even in the top half of starters in the league anymore. He's thrown a ridiculous 49 INTs the last two seasons, or 15 more INTs than Jake has thrown in the last THREE seasons.

[watermock]

Yeah Walker also had to share the ball with Donald Driver who was their possession WR, Robert Ferguson, Bubba Franks and Ahman Green catching the ball.

The difference is Walker got open and played against the primary CB while Lelie was still getting jammed off the line and outmuscled in the red zone.

Like you said, it's all hub bub, no big deal. Walker will have to prove his worth here first.

The only clear cut distinction though is that Walker got his opportunity and became a starter. Lelie got his opportunities and is still a glorified slot WR.

Lelie was NOT the slot reciever, or even the correct place for him. He was exclusively a wide out. People don't wan't him to leave or didn't till his latest tantrum, but he's demanding it, and now the milk is so sour it has to be thrown out. We should of done something on draft day.

[Ballhawk]

Nope. Favre is not a better QB than Plummer at this point of his career. He's not even in the top half of starters in the league anymore. He's thrown a ridiculous 49 INTs the last two seasons, or 15 more INTs than Jake has thrown in the last THREE seasons.

Farve may not be a great QB anymore but he is still one of the better passers in the game. His decision making is really what has gone down hill, but given a pocket he can still make all the throws and do so with some zip. Plummer playing the role of a gunslinger showed us what he is about in the Pitt game and did the same thing in the Atlanta game last year. If we are down by 2 Tds going into the 2nd half I would rather have Farve at QB than Plummer 10 times out of 10.

[spdirty]

OT: Bulldogs collide. Remember this hit. Ben Watson has some wheels!

http://www.denverpostplus.com/galleries/broncos2005/bailygal1/16.jpg


Champ in a better posture. Avatar anyone?
This looks like what I thought was the turning point in the Championship game.

http://www.denverpostplus.com/galleries/broncos2005/bailygal1/1.jpg


Every time I have tried to rewatch that game, once I see that play my heart sinks to my stomach and I am incapable of watching any more.

[BroncoInferno]

Farve may not be a great QB anymore but he is still one of the better passers in the game. His decision making is really what has gone down hill, but given a pocket he can still make all the throws and do so with some zip. Plummer playing the role of a gunslinger showed us what he is about in the Pitt game and did the same thing in the Atlanta game last year. If we are down by 2 Tds going into the 2nd half I would rather have Farve at QB than Plummer 10 times out of 10.

I don't agree. Favre needed Holmgren to reign him in during the 90s, and once he left Favre gradually deteriorated into an erratic wildslinger who you just can't trust with the game. I'm not saying Jake gets 4 stars in that department either, not even close, but I go with him over Favre at this point of Brett's career. He's washed up.

[Ballhawk]

I don't agree. Favre needed Holmgren to reign him in during the 90s, and once he left Favre gradually deteriorated into an erratic wildslinger who you just can't trust with the game. I'm not saying Jake gets 4 stars in that department either, not even close, but I go with him over Favre at this point of Brett's career. He's washed up.

Fair enough and in truth I really do not like either of them to lead a comeback, but Plummer has never shown me he can do it without a strong running game.

[bronco militia]

Lets look at this a little closer:

64 games, 3007 yards for Lelie = 46.98 yards per game (47 ypg)

48 games, 2444 yards for Walker = 50.9 yards (51 ypg).

Lelies yards per catch is 17.89 ypc

Walker yards per catch is 15.56

Lelie gets 2.625 catches per game played.

Walker gets 3.27 catches per game played.

So, per game basis, we can see 4 more yards per game, less than 1 more catch per game and 2 less yards per catch.

Keep in mind that Walker played in a pass heavy offense in Green Bay with one of the all time gun slingers throwing him the ball and you get more TDs.

The only real difference between the two, Walker had Favre and Lelie had Plummer.

Lelie in Green Bay is likely to have put up bigger numbers than Walker has.

So what the **** is all the hub bub about?

draft Jay Cutler....:thumbsup:

[Steve Sewell]

More Cashlie reading.

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/2006/05/ashley-lelie-broncos080506.html

No offense, but with the advent of the internet, it's amazing how many total hacks set up websites and act like they are insider or expert journalists. This article is total crap...

[BroncoFiend]

Lets look at this a little closer:

64 games, 3007 yards for Lelie = 46.98 yards per game (47 ypg)

48 games, 2444 yards for Walker = 50.9 yards (51 ypg).

Lelies yards per catch is 17.89 ypc

Walker yards per catch is 15.56

Lelie gets 2.625 catches per game played.

Walker gets 3.27 catches per game played.

So, per game basis, we can see 4 more yards per game, less than 1 more catch per game and 2 less yards per catch.

Keep in mind that Walker played in a pass heavy offense in Green Bay with one of the all time gun slingers throwing him the ball and you get more TDs.

The only real difference between the two, Walker had Favre and Lelie had Plummer.

Lelie in Green Bay is likely to have put up bigger numbers than Walker has.

So what the **** is all the hub bub about?


I hate the whole 'stat war' thing, especially with people who only see the glass half empty, but I think your analysis is a little flawed, what's more, I think you know it but didn't care to bring that point up.

Javon only started 2 games his rookie year, but played in 15, likewise he only started 3 in his second year but played in 16. In his third year, when given the opportunity to start all year, he broke out in a big way. That is something Lelie has never done. Walker has proven ability to make the tough catch in traffic and fight for the ball, Lelie has never done that.

If you want to throw red flags around about Javon's injury go ahead, but don't honestly compare what they have done on the field by using some filtered stats.

And on what basis can you claim Lelie would have performed better that Javon in GB? I like Lelie and hate arguing against him, but Lelie is a one dimensional player and that's all he'll ever be. Javon is a complete reciever who can catch the ball anywhere on the field and is a great blocker.

[ludo21]

i really want lelie here.

[ICON]

Yeah Walker also had to share the ball with Donald Driver who was their possession WR, Robert Ferguson, Bubba Franks and Ahman Green catching the ball.

The difference is Walker got open and played against the primary CB while Lelie was still getting jammed off the line and outmuscled in the red zone.

Like you said, it's all hub bub, no big deal. Walker will have to prove his worth here first.

The only clear cut distinction though is that Walker got his opportunity and became a starter. Lelie got his opportunities and is still a glorified slot WR.:thumbsup:

[Needa Pass Rush]

No offense, but with the advent of the internet, it's amazing how many total hacks set up websites and act like they are insider or expert journalists. This article is total crap...

None taken. It wasn't put out as gospel. Just discussion stimuli for a pokey off season. ^5

[Rock Chalk]

Yeah Walker also had to share the ball with Donald Driver who was their possession WR, Robert Ferguson, Bubba Franks and Ahman Green catching the ball.

Lelie had to share wit Rod Smith the possession WR, Anderson, Johnson, Bell and Portis (first and second year) out of the backfield and the TEs. Big difference.

The difference is Walker got open and played against the primary CB while Lelie was still getting jammed off the line and outmuscled in the red zone.

Lelie gets open. Where he doesnt play against the primary CB as Rod Smith draws that honor. I could go look up Javon's Red zone stats if I felt so inclined but I suspect they are not that much different than lelie's.

Like you said, it's all hub bub, no big deal. Walker will have to prove his worth here first.

The only clear cut distinction though is that Walker got his opportunity and became a starter. Lelie got his opportunities and is still a glorified slot WR.
Walker competed against Donald Driver. Lelie is competing against one of teh greatest WR to ever play the game.

[Rock Chalk]

I hate the whole 'stat war' thing, especially with people who only see the glass half empty, but I think your analysis is a little flawed, what's more, I think you know it but didn't care to bring that point up.

Javon only started 2 games his rookie year, but played in 15, likewise he only started 3 in his second year but played in 16. In his third year, when given the opportunity to start all year, he broke out in a big way. That is something Lelie has never done. Walker has proven ability to make the tough catch in traffic and fight for the ball, Lelie has never done that.

If you want to throw red flags around about Javon's injury go ahead, but don't honestly compare what they have done on the field by using some filtered stats.

And on what basis can you claim Lelie would have performed better that Javon in GB? I like Lelie and hate arguing against him, but Lelie is a one dimensional player and that's all he'll ever be. Javon is a complete reciever who can catch the ball anywhere on the field and is a great blocker.
Like Rod Smith said, it doesnt matter if you start or not. Its how many games you played in.

Yes, I believe Lelie would have performed better in GB than Javon. I believe that because he has put up insane YPC numbers with Jake Plummer underthrowing and overthrowing him all the time. Brett Favre is a much moe accurate passer.

You dont agree with my analysis, thats fine. Not asking you to, but its certainly not flawed. Lelie proved to me that he is not a one dimensional player if used. He proved that in the Raider game that no one seems to want to remember. He caught passes everywhere on the field on every route we have available. Got open, got free. We did and do not use Lelie in a productive manner and it has less to do with him not being able to get open and more to do with the run first philosophy AND Rod Smith being the safety valve, NOT Lelie.

[Rock Chalk]

Look, Im not defending Lelie here. i dont care if he stays or goes really. I just dont think Javon Walker is so much better than Lelie that he is going to change everything. in fact, I think the two receivers are about equal.

[BroncoInferno]

LHe proved that in the Raider game that no one seems to want to remember. He caught passes everywhere on the field on every route we have available. Got open, got free.

A one game sample against a team with a dreadful secondary doesn't prove jack****. You have to do it consistently. Lelie can't. Anyone can do it for a game or two.

[Rock Chalk]

A one game sample against a team with a dreadful secondary doesn't prove jack****. You have to do it consistently. Lelie can't. Anyone can do it for a game or two.
Explain Javon Walker's whopping .somthing catches per game more than Lelie and less ypc and whopping 4 more yards per game then.

Lelie was USED right in the Raider game. It was apparent that they were trying to get him the ball in that game.

Nearly every other game you never saw Lelie being called to run the intermediate and short routes very often.

Blaming that on Lelie are we? Try the coaches.

Javon is not going to change anything on our offense and only fools think otherwise.

[fontaine]

Look, Im not defending Lelie here. i dont care if he stays or goes really. I just dont think Javon Walker is so much better than Lelie that he is going to change everything. in fact, I think the two receivers are about equal.

No big deal because, frankly, your opinion counts for nothing when stacked up against multiple teams that were pursuing Walker over Lelie.

Lelie could go on to have a superb career while Walker never recovers, but right now, in the eyes of the NFL, the Broncos made the right decision.

As far as Lelie goes, it's up to him how far he goes in Denver. No one is forcing him out apart from himself.

[CHEF LUIGI]

Lets look at this a little closer:

64 games, 3007 yards for Lelie = 46.98 yards per game (47 ypg)

48 games, 2444 yards for Walker = 50.9 yards (51 ypg).

Lelies yards per catch is 17.89 ypc

Walker yards per catch is 15.56

Lelie gets 2.625 catches per game played.

Walker gets 3.27 catches per game played.

So, per game basis, we can see 4 more yards per game, less than 1 more catch per game and 2 less yards per catch.

Keep in mind that Walker played in a pass heavy offense in Green Bay with one of the all time gun slingers throwing him the ball and you get more TDs.

The only real difference between the two, Walker had Favre and Lelie had Plummer.

Lelie in Green Bay is likely to have put up bigger numbers than Walker has.

So what the **** is all the hub bub about?
a closer look?
JW runs ALL the routes!
Assley Playme, he cowars along the sidelines and goes deep, thats it!
he cant read a zone and find a window, he rarely ever goes over the middle, he never seems to be able to run after the catch, he is a coward and far from being a complete receiver!
still fixated on numbers?
Take a look at those TD numbers!
and if you still think there is little difference between JW and assley, consider this:
the two are working out together, and ash has resigned himself to the realization that he cant compete with this guy coming back from an ACL injury... he wont even try !( even assley can see the difference)

walker wants to be in denver.
assley playme does not.
do you still not see a difference?
get yourself a cane and a dog.

assley is a coward and a punk and a poor excuse for a #3 receiver, he will be as easy to replace as a lightbulb !

[BroncoInferno]

Explain Javon Walker's whopping .somthing catches per game more than Lelie and less ypc and whopping 4 more yards per game then.

Javon has an 89 catch 12 TD season which dwarfs Lelie's best season by 35 catches and 5 TDs. Hell, the year prior he had 9 TDs, only 3 fewer than Lelie has in his entire career. Walker is better, plain and simple.

Lelie was USED right in the Raider game. It was apparent that they were trying to get him the ball in that game.

Nearly every other game you never saw Lelie being called to run the intermediate and short routes very often.

Blaming that on Lelie are we? Try the coaches.

OK. Yeah, it's the fault of the staff that constructed one of the all time great offenses and a top 5 offense last season despite marginal talent. Whatever you say, bud. ROFL!

Javon is not going to change anything on our offense and only fools think otherwise.

Only a fool can't see that Walker has proven to be a much more complete and consistent player than Lelie to date.

[CHEF LUIGI]

No big deal because, frankly, your opinion counts for nothing when stacked up against multiple teams that were pursuing Walker over Lelie.

Lelie could go on to have a superb career while Walker never recovers, but right now, in the eyes of the NFL, the Broncos made the right decision.

As far as Lelie goes, it's up to him how far he goes in Denver. No one is forcing him out apart from himself.actually, now that the broncos no longer feel the need to justify his first round selection, ash will be on a level playing field with ALL the WR candidates and I dont think he has the talent and I know he does not have the HEART to keep his #3 job !
He knows it too, thats why he wont even try!
until now assley playme has been given a "pass" on competition, now he will be required to earn it and HE knows HE will fail, thats why HE wont even try !
the entire NFL has had a chance to see what assley playme brings to the table. 30 NFL teams dont even think he is worth an untested rookie third round draft pick.
bronco fans wake up, your allegiance to #85 is unwarranted, sorry if you bought his jersey, but the broncos have given up on trying to justify their "purchase", you should to, after all #85 himself has already given up !

[ludo21]

actually, now that the broncos no longer feel the need to justify his first round selection, ash will be on a level playing field with ALL the WR candidates and I dont think he has the talent and I know he does not have the HEART to keep his #3 job !
He knows it too, thats why he wont even try!
until now assley playme has been given a "pass" on competition, now he will be required to earn it and HE knows HE will fail, thats why HE wont even try !
the entire NFL has had a chance to see what assley playme brings to the table. 30 NFL teams dont even think he is worth an untested rookie third round draft pick.
bronco fans wake up, your allegiance to #85 is unwarranted, sorry if you bought his jersey, but the broncos have given up on trying to justify their "purchase", you should to, after all #85 himself has already given up !


???

its not even time to compete yet.

Wait till TC to see what happens, as of now he is still a Bronco, and i will support him till he leaves. He is an IDIOT for going thid route, but if he comes to, a trio of Rod, JW, and Ash is lethal. Lets just wait and see.......

[fontaine]

actually, now that the broncos no longer feel the need to justify his first round selection, ash will be on a level playing field with ALL the WR candidates and I dont think he has the talent and I know he does not have the HEART to keep his #3 job !
He knows it too, thats why he wont even try!
until now assley playme has been given a "pass" on competition, now he will be required to earn it and HE knows HE will fail, thats why HE wont even try !
the entire NFL has had a chance to see what assley playme brings to the table. 30 NFL teams dont even think he is worth an untested rookie third round draft pick.
bronco fans wake up, your allegiance to #85 is unwarranted, sorry if you bought his jersey, but the broncos have given up on trying to justify their "purchase", you should to, after all #85 himself has already given up !


The real tragedy in all of this is that the Broncos actively go out and get a Pro-Bowl WR who's just 27 which was a major need for the offense given Rod's age, yet people still find a way to criticize it.

We wanted an impact guy for the offense and we got TO-lite without the drama? What more do people freakin' want?

What would you prefer? The Broncos sit pat, don't get Walker and watch another season while Lelie underachieves/plays soft and age catches up to Rod while Bronco fans crawl out of the woodwork and b*tch and whine about not having a passing offense yet again?

Armchair GMs crack me up.

[Ballhawk]

Javon has an 89 catch 12 TD season which dwarfs Lelie's best season by 35 catches and 5 TDs. Hell, the year prior he had 9 TDs, only 3 fewer than Lelie has in his entire career. Walker is better, plain and simple.





you may want to double check that

[BroncoInferno]

you may want to double check that

Walker's best season: 89 catches 12 TDs
Lelie's best season: 54 catches 7 TDs

Now, I was an English major, but I think that comes out to a difference of 35 catches and 5 TDs, no? ???

[Play2win]

Ashley Lelie's future is still just POTENTIAL...

Its the dreaded "P" word, and it consumes ASH...

He has the POTENTIAL to be a complete receiver... He has the POTENTIAL to go consistently across the middle... He has the POTENTIAL to run all the routes... He has the POTENTIAL to become a #1 in this league... etc... etc... etc...

ASH is going into his final year of his original contract and its STILL all about POTENTIAL... Uhh :oyvey: :notthissh

[JCMElway]

Fairly mixed reactions. I am not sure where I stand on the issue. A part of me wants to see what he can do this year lined up with Smith and Walker in the slot. The other part says trade him to keep him out of KC, Oakland, or SD to keep him from going Kennison on us. I would say that I am leaning towards the trade part though.

Lelie in the slot would be useless. He isn't a great route runner and is squeamish over the middle.

In a 3 WR set, Rod would have to shift to the slot and Lelie would get the downfield stuff.

[Meck77]

I just broke off an email to Lelie's website and said what I had to say. http://www.ashleylelie.com/ssp/contact Who knows maybe he reads them.

As far as I'm concerned Lelie has said what he has to say. He wants out and wants to get paid without earning it. This isnt' about being a #1 let's be real. I can't even remember the last time I heard the words "I want a Superbowl" come out of his mouth. Can anyone else?

The guy is entitled to do what he has to do for himself and his family. It's clear to me now he has no interest in working as a member of this team to achieve the goal of a SUPERBOWL. He'd rather be traded to some sorry ass 6-10 team so he can feel like he is the "Go to guy" I guess.

So be it. I look forward to watching the rest of the WRs compete and earn their jobs in camp.

[Ballhawk]

Walker's best season: 89 catches 12 TDs
Lelie's best season: 54 catches 7 TDs

Now, I was an English major, but I think that comes out to a difference of 35 catches and 5 TDs, no? ???

Thats right read it wrong. The whole idea of comparing stats is askewed because they did not play in the same offense. If Walker beats Lelies numbers by that much playing in Denver then you can make that claim.

[DarkHorse]

It's an "ego" issue at this point - he wants to be traded to a team that will throw exclusively to him because they have nobody else. So, in essence he wants someone to hand him the 'go to guy' status because he cannot earn it outright.

I'm surprised that Watts didn't climb up in Ashley's ass last year - now i'm worried about Watts.

[fontaine]

Thats right read it wrong. The whole idea of comparing stats is askewed because they did not play in the same offense. If Walker beats Lelies numbers by that much playing in Denver then you can make that claim.

True enough.

The only REAL difference that counts IMO is that Walker is ready to play and compete (as is Rod) and has agreed to a contract where his bonus money kicks innext year so he can go out and prove his worth this season: Confidence of a winner.

Lelie on the other hand doesn't want to be in Denver and compete with Walker and Rod Smith: Cowardice of a loser.

All this Lelie talk about an unfair competition is nonsense. A blind monkey will tell you that the Broncos don't commit $10million until 2007 so the job is open.

And don't believe they won't cut Walker next season if he sucks just because they traded from him. They cut MoClo who was a bust even before the season started and he was a third round pick.

[azbroncfan]

I just broke off an email to Lelie's website and said what I had to say. http://www.ashleylelie.com/ssp/contact Who knows maybe he reads them.

As far as I'm concerned Lelie has said what he has to say. He wants out and wants to get paid without earning it. This isnt' about being a #1 let's be real. I can't even remember the last time I heard the words "I want a Superbowl" come out of his mouth. Can anyone else?

The guy is entitled to do what he has to do for himself and his family. It's clear to me now he has no interest in working as a member of this team to achieve the goal of a SUPERBOWL. He'd rather be traded to some sorry ass 6-10 team so he can feel like he is the "Go to guy" I guess.

So be it. I look forward to watching the rest of the WRs compete and earn their jobs in camp.

Here is what I said to him

Ashley,
You should try and get a trade for a good DT that can provide a pass rush. I don't think your value is as good as you think or you would of been gone during the draft. I personally wish you would stay in Denver and you can start when Smith retires. I would say how do you know if Walker is healthy but since you are working out with him his knee must be great and you realize you can't beat him out.
Thanks
cody

[Needa Pass Rush]

Here is what I said to him

Ashley,
You should try and get a trade for a good DT that can provide a pass rush. I don't think your value is as good as you think or you would of been gone during the draft. I personally wish you would stay in Denver and you can start when Smith retires. I would say how do you know if Walker is healthy but since you are working out with him his knee must be great and you realize you can't beat him out.
Thanks
cody

Cashlie DOES start.

[azbroncfan]

Cashlie DOES start.
Did start, he gave Walker one of the 2 starting WR positions, plus it's offseason, just because you started last year doesn't mean you will next year.

[Arkie]

They look equal to me. Green Bay is a passing team inside the redzone while Denver is a running team. During Javon and Ashley's careers, Green Bay has had 114 passing TDs almost all by Favre. Denver has had 85 passing TDs divided between Griese, Beuerlein, Plummer, and Kanell. Green Bay was also better in completions and yards, but since Ashley is already ahead of Walker in those areas, I don't feel the need to look up those stats.

[Hulamau]

Lets look at this a little closer:

64 games, 3007 yards for Lelie = 46.98 yards per game (47 ypg)

48 games, 2444 yards for Walker = 50.9 yards (51 ypg).

Lelies yards per catch is 17.89 ypc

Walker yards per catch is 15.56

Lelie gets 2.625 catches per game played.

Walker gets 3.27 catches per game played.

So, per game basis, we can see 4 more yards per game, less than 1 more catch per game and 2 less yards per catch.

Keep in mind that Walker played in a pass heavy offense in Green Bay with one of the all time gun slingers throwing him the ball and you get more TDs.

The only real difference between the two, Walker had Favre and Lelie had Plummer.

Lelie in Green Bay is likely to have put up bigger numbers than Walker has.

So what the **** is all the hub bub about?


Excellent post Alec,

Walker may be a fine addition, but if Lelie were in GB the past 4 years and Walker here the stats would likely be reversed at the least.

[CHEF LUIGI]

ash will be as easy to replace as a lightbulb!
somebody else will go deep, stretching the field, while the other REAL, complete receivers do all the nessisary things underneath!
JW and rod will read blitzes and zones and respond accordingly, and plummer will have better weapons at his disposal !
By october we will have forgotten all about whats-his-name !
last year we went to ash less and the offense flourished.
We should be awesome once he is completely out of the picture!
If you don't agree, you own a #85 jersey... get over it !

[Arkie]

Most of y'all probably deleted the AFC Championship game already, you need to watch the 2nd half again. Some of the Broncos gave up by halftime being down 24-3, but three players with a lot of heart stood out in my mind. Ashley, Rod, and Jake were going all out making plays in the 2nd half to pull closer. The Broncos outplayed the Steelers in the 2nd half despite three Plummer turnovers. I'm surprised Plummer didn't have more considering our smallish line was trying to prevent the Steelers from teeing off on him.

[Hulamau]

Javon has an 89 catch 12 TD season which dwarfs Lelie's best season by 35 catches and 5 TDs. Hell, the year prior he had 9 TDs, only 3 fewer than Lelie has in his entire career. Walker is better, plain and simple.



OK. Yeah, it's the fault of the staff that constructed one of the all time great offenses and a top 5 offense last season despite marginal talent. Whatever you say, bud. ROFL!



Only a fool can't see that Walker has proven to be a much more complete and consistent player than Lelie to date.



This should be fun, All you guys that think Walker is SO much better than Lelie based on stats, please sit back and pop a cold one and lets take a closer look.

Its just stunning to me that people cant see the difference between the stats of the #1WR in Green Bay with Favre when they were still contenders up through 2004 and Lelie as our #2WR in 2004 with our run-oriented passing attack.

Both Favre and Plummer had almost identical yards but you are about to see how superficial and misleading such stats can be when you break down how much opportunity those seemingly even total passing yards of 4,088 for Favre and 4,089 for Plummer in 2004 break down to for each teams #1 and #2 WR!

To really compare Walker and Lelie, you must also look at their respective 2002 and 2003 years when both were their teams rookie WRs in 2002 and #2WR in 2003. And Bronco Inferno, look at Donald Driver's stats in 04 compared to Walker's, Lelie's and Rod Smith's, and you'll realize how it reframes the relative opportunity for both of our guys versus theirs in very different systems with different QBs and offensive game planning.

Both Walker and Lelie entered the league together in 2002.

2002 both rookies-----------Catches---Yards---AVE---TDs---Long

Walker (Favre 16 games)------ 23-------319----13.9---1-----30yrd

Lelie (Plummer 16 games)-------35-------525----15-----2-----48yrd


2003 both are #2WR-------Catches---Yards---AVE---TDs---Long

Walker (Favre 16 games)-----41-------716----17.5----9-----66yrd

Lelie (*Plummer 11 games*)--37-------628----17.0----4-----60yrd


2004 (Javon #1, Ash #2)-------Catches----Yards---AVE---TDs---Long

Walker #1WR (Favre 16gms)--------89--------1382----15.5---12----79yrd

Lelie #2WR (Jake only 11gms)-------54--------1088----20.1*---7--- 58yrd

(*= led NFL)

Now lets look deeper at the 2003 & 2004 stats.

In 2003 After Plummer went down after Jake and Lelie had a great and promising start to the season, Beureline went down mid-way through the very next game and Lelie had to play with #3 QB Kannel who had been coaching High school football 10 days earlier! Even though Kannel had been in camp a couple months earlier, he got relatively few snaps and ever fewer with ASh in camp and there was very little chemstry between Kannel & Lelie or any one else for that matter.

Lelies production and confidence took a swan dive over then next 5 games and it took he and Jake a good 2 games to wrok out the rust and for both he and Lelie to get back in sync for the last few games of the season, just in time, along with the rest of the team, to make the playoffs including Lelie's 'Big Time' game and season saving 40 yrd 3rd down and long grab against Cleveland on the last drive of the game (the same drive that Shanny unwisely got Portis injured on instead of kicking the damn FG from the 5yrd line).

Meanwhile, in 2003 Walker as the #2WR for Green Bay had the luxury of Favre for 16 full games against a relatively weak NFC north schedule. Read their relative stats in that light! Plus, GB always used Walker much more in the red zone than we ever did Lelie. Since Jake has been here and even before to some degree we've always relied much more on either Rod, one of the TEs or a RB/FB or eligible tackle for Redzone passing than any of our #2, particularly since McCaffery left which helps account for the extra TDs Walker had along with the more consistent QBing he got in a more wide open passing attack in 2003.

In 2004 both Plummer and Favre had almost identical total passing yards at 4,088 for Favre and 4,089 for Plummer but its very instructive to look closer at 2004 and you'll see the significant differences in passing efficiency between Favre and Jake and opportunity that Walker and Lelie had as their teams #1 and #2 WR respectively.

Follow this over to the next post to see Favre vs Plummerin 2004, and #2WR Driver vs #1WR Rod Smith in 2004, its an eye opener!

[Lev Vyvanse]

To really compare Walker and Lelie you must also look at their respective 2002 and 2003 years when both were their teams rookie WRs in 2002 and #2WR in 2002. Plus, Bronco Inferno, Lelies best year, as Walkers was in in 2004 wherre Ashley had 54 catches for 1088 yrds, a 20.1 Ave (leading the NFL) and 7 TDs as out #2WR, not the erroneous 35 catches and 5 TDs you listed. No wonder you think he sucks!!!

Both Walker and Lelie entered the league together in 2002.

2002 both rookies Catches Yards AVE TDs Long

Walker (Favre 16 games) 23 319 13.9 1 30yrd

Lelie (Plummer 16 games) 35 525 15 2 48yrd


2003 both are #2WR Catches Yards AVE TDs Long

Walker (Favre 16 games) 41 716 17.5 9 66yrd

Lelie (*Plummer 11 games*) 37 628 17.0 4 60yrd


2004 (Javon #1, Ash #2) Catches Yards AVE TDs Long

Walker #1WR (Favre 16gms) 89 1382 15.5 12 79yrd

Lelie #2WR (Jake only 11gms) 54 1088 20.1* 7 58yrd



Hulamau subtract Lelie stats from walkers in 2004. Then reread the thread.

[2KBack]

has anyone mentioned that comparing these two on stats isn't going to lead anywhere? They were in 2 different offenses. All you can do is look at the type of plays they make, and the style in which they play. I personally think that Walker is better in traffic, so right there he is better suited for the bronco offense.

Okay, that is all, continue to throw equations around

[Hulamau]

PART 2

2004 Favre vs Plummer-----Att/Com------% --------Yrds---------Y/att-------TDs------INT------QB#

Favre:---------------------540/343----64.1%-----4,088yds-----7.57yd/att----30td----17 int-----92.4-rating

Plummer:------------------ 521/303----58.2%-----4.089yds-----7.8yd/att-----27td----20int------84.5-rating5

Total yards is incredibly close but Favre was significantly more accurate and efficient indicated by the 64.1% vs 58.4&% completion, the 6 point difenrce in TD/INT ratio and resutlign QB rating.

This translates into a lot more opportunity for Walker at #1 than Lelie as our #2 but Lelie had more yards per catch than Walker even still.

PLus GB used Walker far more in the red zone than we ever did Lelie, leading to more TDs. In Shanny's offense we use Rod, one of the TE's, a RB/FB or a eligible tackle for Redzone work far more than a #2 of #3 WR with the exception of McCaffery., which is another reason wy both Walkers and Drivers TD stats as their #2 are much better than either Rod Smith or Lelie. We use a more balanced attack with more run TDs.


What is really revealing is to look at #2 Driver's versus #1 Smith's stats in 2004

2004 #2WR Donald Driver
vs #1WR Rod Smith-------Catches-----Yrds-------AVE -----TDs-----Long

Rod Smith #1 WR:-------79cat----1,144yd----14.5yd ----7td------85yrd

Donald Driver #2WR:---- 84cat----1,208yd----14.4yd-----9td------50yrd

Note, that even GB's #2WR had more catches, yards AND TDs than Rod as our #1, which tells everything about the greater opprotunity for each WR in GB with Favre and that offense compared to our WRs here with Jake and our scheme.

Hell, in 2004 when we were still opening it up a bit more, Lelie had the SAME number 7 TDs that Rod had and only 56 less total yards than Rod on 25 fewer catches!


Furthermore, I watched every offensive down again on TIVO after the last two seasons and there is no question that Lelie caught a higher percentage of anywhere near catchable balls thrown to him than did Rod in both years!

Rod brings a lot of awesome things to the table with his route running experience and team leadership and he is the soul and face of the team, so as long as he can still get it done at a high level NO ONE is knocking him off the throne.

However, as these stats imply that doesnt mean Lelie couldnt fill the role if given the opportunity. Anyone that watched camp the last two years and says Rod actaully played better in camp than Lelie is either smoking something or is lying. But Rod fulfilled his role as the defacto #1 very well and Lelie filled his role as our #2 without complaining until now andthat is how it played out.

Also, I think its clear just by honestly studying these stats that if the roles were reversed and Walker had been in Denver and Lelie in GB, Walker 'maybe' have done equal to what Lelie did here, but there is no question Lelie would have matched and likely exceeded what Walker accomplished there.

Hell If Lelie had been their #2WR in 2004 and got 80 balls Like Driver did he might well have out done Walker and we would all have been praying this offseason that we could ship a talented but underachieveing Walker to GB for the red hot Lelie!

The good news is thay Walker should do very well here as he is talented guy in the same league as Lelie but all these superficial claims of him being Heads and shoudlers above Lelie in talent are based soley on uniformed emotional speculation and not on a careful review of their respective careers.

The bad news is that if Lelie is gone as it seems we are losing the chance to have a truly Dynamite tandem with Walker and Ash for the next 8 or so years.

[Hulamau]

Hulamau subtract Lelie stats from walkers in 2004. Then reread the thread.

Read part two and then do the same thing!! :wave:

Also while you are at it compare Lelies 2004 stats to Rod Smiths as our #1 who got 79 catches to lLelie's 54 and only had 56 more yard and the same number of TDS!

Then look at GBs #2WR Driver in 2004 who did better than Smith too and when you put all that together it paints a very different picture of what Walker would likely have done here as our #2 WR and Lelie in GB as their #1 or even #2WR.

If that isnt clear after actually studying what these stats imply I'm sorry but I dont know what to tell you!

I suggest you read the two posts more carefullly. I'm not saying Walker isnt a great WR, I'm just doing a little friendly bitch-slapping on those that are now claiming Lelie was a chump based on some superficial smoke and mirrors comparisons.

[Hulamau]

has anyone mentioned that comparing these two on stats isn't going to lead anywhere? They were in 2 different offenses. All you can do is look at the type of plays they make, and the style in which they play. I personally think that Walker is better in traffic, so right there he is better suited for the bronco offense.

Okay, that is all, continue to throw equations around


Good points but that is precisely what my posts with the supporting stats confirm.

And it could well be that Walker may be a bit better in the middle with his larger frame than Lelie, and Lelie better in the long ball than Walker with his edge in speed and talent in making the impossible catch, but its all specualtion as we almost NEVER threw it to him in those situations.

The one time we did last year and dedicated a whole game to seeing what he could do short, middle and long he punished Oakland all afternoon making every grab and some very nice RACs over the middle all day. Even Kubiak later said he blamed himself for not working more of that into the game plan through the year.

To top it off, in AFC championship game Rod wasnt doing much and yet we only threw the ball in Lelie's direction 3 times all afternoon! One of which was a 30yrd TD, the other a 38 yrd circus catch along the sielines over the top of a defender that directly set up our only other TD, and the other was over thrown! Its not hard to see why the guy feels overlooked and underappreciated here, even though it doesn't justify being a moron about it either.

The last half of the year Lelie gave every indication he is ready for a larger role. I just hope his agent can talk him off the ledge so we can get both these guys paired up with Rod as a player coach in years to come and Cutler down the road winning repeat SB's

[Lev Vyvanse]

Plus, Bronco Inferno, Lelies best year, as Walkers was in in 2004 wherre Ashley had 54 catches for 1088 yrds, a 20.1 Ave (leading the NFL) and 7 TDs as out #2WR, not the erroneous 35 catches and 5 TDs you listed. No wonder you think he sucks!!!

Again, reread what he said. 35 catches and 5 TDs is the difference between the two seasons not Lelie best season. I think it’s great we got walker. I also think Lelie is a very good WR. I was just pointing out that you miss quoted him

[kamakazi_kal]

Excellent post Alec,

Walker may be a fine addition, but if Lelie were in GB the past 4 years and Walker here the stats would likely be reversed at the least.

dont know about all that .... walker will cross the middle of the field. i have see him (my fantasy team) take huge shots over the middle and get right back up.... not only that he blocks like crazy and you know that was a huge + in shannys book.....leile is a waste of a blocker, he tries yes but looks very average doing it same could be said for him shaking or beating the bump at the line...... leile = fragile (mind and body)

i reall hope he stays though cause rod is only getting older and i would be comfortable with leile and walker as 1 and 2......but maybe not in that order :~ohyah!:

[Hulamau]

They both would complement each other and each could play the others role if one goes down so I hope they both stay too.

No doubt Walker has about 12 more pounds on him, But Ash was MUCH improved this year in both beating the bump at the line AND in blocking. In rewatching nthe games this offseason he leveled some guys and even when he didnt lay wood he was very effective in knocking his guy off balance and preventing him from getting to our RB, and was directly responsible for at least Four rushing TDs, where if he doenst make the block Tatum or MA is down, yet he makes the block and they scored in that kind of a direct realtionship play, as well as a number of other where he helped but wasn't the primary reason they scored.

Read Kubiaks article in the Denver Post or RMN in December about Lelie where he prasied him for all the little things that no one notices that he did away from the ball this year.

Plus this fragile claim is just not supported by the facts. The guy has not missed a single game in four year nor in college when he caught 9 to 10 blals a game! I dotn know how you cal lthat fragile.

He's never going to be a TO kind of guy in strength and you wouldn't want to use him exclusively across the middle no doubt, but this assumption that he is fragile just doesnt hold up, and I even heard one sportscaster saying Lelie s problme was he was injured too often to ever break into the starting ranks, obviously a peice of BS he picked up from reading chat room gossip!

Anyway, its these kind of baseless rumors that I'm always challenging.

[Hulamau]

Again, reread what he said. 35 catches and 5 TDs is the difference between the two seasons not Lelie best season. I think it’s great we got walker. I also think Lelie is a very good WR. I was just pointing out that you miss quoted him


Thanks TTO, for the correction and my apology to Bronco Inferno then. I was thinking no wonder Ash isnt high on BI's opionion list if he thought his season high was 35 catches :wiggle:

[Lev Vyvanse]

I just hope Lelie comes around and we get to see the 3WR set of Smith, Lelie, and walker. Imagine the chiefs match up in particular. When I close my eyes, I can almost hear the crunch of a defensive backs ankles. :~ohyah!:

[BroncoMan4ever]

I'm sorry but you're a little off on that one.

Here are the totals:

Lelie Totals:
Games - 64
Yards - 3007
Receptions - 168
TDs - 12

Walker Totals:
Games - 48
Yards - 2444
Receptions - 157
TDs - 22

Do you see one glaring difference in their stats? I'll give you a hint...it's GAMES PLAYED!

I also see a difference in TD's. Lelie's YPC crap means nuthing if he can't score.

[Kaylore]

Look at yards after contact. Lelie can't catch a signle ball without falling down. Even when no one is really near him he catches it and falls down. Walker can break a slant and get yards after the catch. He's a more complete receiver than Lelie.

[troya900]

with his edge in speed and talent in making the impossible catch

LMAO, yeah and missing the next 5 passes that come his way with butterfingers. The guy was just not consistent at ALL in catching the damn ball. He definately has made some nice grabs over his time here, but more than not he's let easy gimmes slip right through his hands.

[Hulamau]

LMAO, yeah and missing the next 5 passes that come his way with butterfingers. The guy was just not consistent at ALL in catching the damn ball. He definately has made some nice grabs over his time here, but more than not he's let easy gimmes slip right through his hands.


Sorry, but that's a hunk of junk, go watch the film from last season, count every pass thrown in his direction and come back and then we'll talk ... the case will close itself. Lelie like every WR dropped some he should have had and like every WR he ran a few busted routs etc, but he was BETTER than Rod Smith in percentage of catches made of catchable balls thrown to him the past two years, and that is an absolute fact.

2/3rd of those 'drops' you recollect seeing were balls 5 yrds either underthrown or over his head, or hopeless wounded ducks.

One area he and Jake failed to connect most was in the short red zone and some of it was on Lelie, some on Plummer, but the LARGE majority of the longer balls he didnt come up with, no one could have.

This 'dropping five catches for every pass he caught' is the kind of irrelevant blather that only adds to more confusion and ignorance.

If any WR 'dropped 5 balls for everyone he caught' he'd be flipping burgers before the second week of training camp.

[Hulamau]

Look at yards after contact. Lelie can't catch a signle ball without falling down. Even when no one is really near him he catches it and falls down. Walker can break a slant and get yards after the catch. He's a more complete receiver than Lelie.


I agree that Lelie had a a greater tendency to go down earlier on and even some in 2004, but vey little last year when caught got short to mid-balls or the few long ball that were reasonably on target. adn he didnt have to leap or dive for.

Re-watch both Oakland games, first KC, both Pats game, Giants game and first half of Philly which were the only times they even threw him the ball short to mid He caught the ball and got some yards in eaqch of those games though his best RACs were in Fader-two where they made him the go to guy for whole game and he responded.

Most of Lelie's patterns this year and last were of two variety. 1. Slash down the sideline with a quick out turn to catch a safe jump ball along the line then step or get tackled out of bounds or 2. One of two or thrree varients of the deep ball in which Jake would roll out and heave it near Ash who would typicaly have to dive, leap, jump or come back for the ball, all greatly limiting any chance for a RAC.

I can literally count the number of long balls that hit him reasonably in stride last year on the fingers of one hand.

Its much more of how we used him with the 3 to 4 balls he got his way each game than what his full capabliites are that give the impression that he cant stay on his feet.

Neverthelss Kaylore, I do agree with you that Walker is likely a better option for across the middle stuff, but I also think Lelie is perfectly capalble of doing well in that areas too as he showed in Raider-2, both Pats games, Giants, Philly and Steelers game of staying on his feet when the ball hits him in the hands.

My comparsions here are not to diss Walker at all! I think he'll be a great addtion to our team. Its just to counteract this revisionist history ( not by you Kaylore) now that Lelie is leaving and everyone understandably is eager to kick him out the door.

Its OK to be pissed at the guy and still call it like it was.

[fontaine]

Sorry, but that's a hunk of junk, go watch the film from last season, count every pass thrown in his direction and come back and then we'll talk ... the case will close itself. Lelie like every WR dropped some he should have had and like every WR he ran a few busted routs etc, but he was BETTER than Rod Smith in percentage of catches made of catchable balls thrown to him the past two years, and that is an absolute fact.


:rofl:
Liar!

passes caught vs. thrown his way:

2003:
Lelie: 46%
Rod: 65%

2004:
Lelie: 53%
Rod: 58%

2005:
Lelie: 48%
Rod: 67%

The next time you want to compare the greatest WR ever to wear Orange and Blue to some pansy from Hawaii maybe you should also compare their heart and attitudes instead of just flat out lying about stats.
2/3rd of those 'drops' you recollect seeing were balls 5 yrds either underthrown or over his head, or hopeless wounded ducks.

Yeah, Jake only throws them to Lelie and not Rod right?

Funny, Jake is good enough to throw the ball accurately to Lelie when you quote Assley as leading the league in Yards/Catch, but not any other time.

One area he and Jake failed to connect most was in the short red zone and some of it was on Lelie, some on Plummer, but the LARGE majority of the longer balls he didnt come up with, no one could have.

Let's see. Jake could throw the ball in the red zone to:

Rod: Check
Shannon: Check
Kyle Johson: Check
Mike Anderson: Check

Lelie: No. Somehow there's this voodoo curse on Jake that he just can't seem to throw to Lelie. Jake's always part of the problem in the red zone when it comes to this pu$$y but funnily enough that doesn't stop other guys from catching his TD passes.

Ashlie Lelie has pretty much come out and said that he doesn't believe in competing against Walker/Rod and wants to go somewhere to be a #1 WR. Looks like his attitude off the field is pretty much on par with his attitude on the field.

He just doesn't like to compete.

Maybe shanahan can make an exception for this crybaby and let him wear a red jersey in practice (just like the QB) so defensive players won't hit/tackle Lelie. Maybe that might be enough to coax Lelie into showing up to camp.

[Kaylore]

I think Fontaine just illustrated why Jake isn't the problem with Lelie. People say that Jake can't throw the deep ball to Lelie. He had no problems getting the ball to Lelie in '04 and he hit Rod Smith down field in stride this year and last year. And how is it Jake's fault that our fullback makes a better redzone target than Lelie does?

[fontaine]

I think Fontaine just illustrated why Jake isn't the problem with Lelie. People say that Jake can't throw the deep ball to Lelie. He had no problems getting the ball to Lelie in '04 and he hit Rod Smith down field in stride this year and last year. And how is it Jake's fault that our fullback makes a better redzone target than Lelie does?

I'm still trying to understand how Hula can say Lelie has a BETTER catch percentage than Rod freakin Smith.

Just for the record:

In 2005, 36 year old Rod Smith had one of the BEST catch percentages among WRs in the ENTIRE NFL. Rod had a higher catch percentage than Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, Randy Moss etc.

And this asswipe Hula is saying that Lelie is a BETTER catcher than Rod last year.

Can you even read stats Hula? I don't think you can even read a freakin' COLORING BOOK if you think Lelie is a better pass catcher than Rod.

It wasn't Peyton Manning, or Carson Palmer, or Tom Brady throwing Rod those passes.

It was Jake Plummer.

But somehow Jake's arm magically turned to sh*t when throwing passes to Lelie.

You know what, I wanted Lelie to come back. But now I hope we do trade his a$$ or cut him just so Hulamalu would crawl over to whatever team's message board that picks up Lelie and we won't be subjected to reading his sh*t about Lelie being better than Rod.

[BroncoInferno]

Read part two and then do the same thing!! :wave:

Also while you are at it compare Lelies 2004 stats to Rod Smiths as our #1 who got 79 catches to lLelie's 54 and only had 56 more yard and the same number of TDS!

Then look at GBs #2WR Driver in 2004 who did better than Smith too and when you put all that together it paints a very different picture of what Walker would likely have done here as our #2 WR and Lelie in GB as their #1 or even #2WR.

If that isnt clear after actually studying what these stats imply I'm sorry but I dont know what to tell you!

I suggest you read the two posts more carefullly. I'm not saying Walker isnt a great WR, I'm just doing a little friendly b****-slapping on those that are now claiming Lelie was a chump based on some superficial smoke and mirrors comparisons.

You are having to do a lot of stretching here to defend why Walker's 2004 numbers absolutely dwarf Lelie's despite that we were passing the ball a lot, too. For starters, Walker was NOT the number one WR, Driver was. What Walker did was, he competed and got open more often than Driver, and thus got the opportunity to post better numbers than the number one guy, something Lelie could learn from. Walker is better than Lelie, it's just a stone cold fact, and obviously every team in the league agrees since teams are reluctant to give up even a 4th for Lelie. Nice try, but no sale. In the end, you are trying to use hypotheticals (i.e. what Javon would have accomplished in Denver; what Lelie would have accomplished in GB)to prove Lelie is Walker's equal, when the hard facts suggest otherwise.

[Needa Pass Rush]

I think Fontaine just illustrated why Jake isn't the problem with Lelie. People say that Jake can't throw the deep ball to Lelie. He had no problems getting the ball to Lelie in '04 and he hit Rod Smith down field in stride this year and last year. And how is it Jake's fault that our fullback makes a better redzone target than Lelie does?

I'm not taking any sides on this and not picking on your post at all, Kaylore. You may just be right. The thought occurs to me that most of Rods catches happen closer to the LOScrimmage. That particular brand of pass will always a higher percentage pass then 15-50 yard heaves down field which is more of Cashlie's diet.

[Mediator12]

I'm not taking any sides on this and not picking on your post at all, Kaylore. You may just be right. The thought occurs to me that most of Rods catches happen closer to the LOScrimmage. That particular brand of pass will always a higher percentage pass then 15-50 yard heaves down field which is more of Cashlie's diet.

True. The one place Lelie is consistently open is a much harder throw to complete than the shorter ones to Rod.

The other parts of that that have been missed though is that Lelie catches less than 50% of the Balls thrown his way in a West Coast Offense. There are several factors including the one above:

1. Lelie struggles to get seperation off Press coverage and needs ten more yards to free himself in those Patterns and routes. Not good for this system.

2. Lelie does not have a good feel for zone coverages underneath and fails to find the seams quickly enough. Not good for this system.

3. Lelie breaks away from a lot of deep balls on the scrambles. How many catches did he miss when he let up or went the other way on deep balls? He and Plummer never had a good chemistry or trust to be where the ball was going. This limits his big play ability.

4. Plummers accuracy is never going to be his greatest strength. So, the WR better be where the Ball is designed to go. As you can see from the first three points, Ashley has struggled with that. He has made some incredible catches for sure and Plummer has missed some throws as well, but a lot of those throws are off because Lelie is not where he is supposed to be.

Lelie has been semi-Productive in denver, but Walker Fits the system better for sure. He is more physical, has better zone awareness, also catches the deep ball well, and will be where the ball is supposed to be.

It would be nice to see Lelie improve on those points, however he would rather go to a different system to improve. I believe a change of venue might help Lelie, but it will not improve his weaknesses.

[fontaine]

I'm not taking any sides on this and not picking on your post at all, Kaylore. You may just be right. The thought occurs to me that most of Rods catches happen closer to the LOScrimmage. That particular brand of pass will always a higher percentage pass then 15-50 yard heaves down field which is more of Cashlie's diet.

Wrong:

Other WRs who led the league in yards/catch:

Terry Glenn: 18.3 (same as Assley)
52% 8 TDs

Santana Moss 17.7 (even though he was double covered all the time)
63% 9 TDs

Marty Booker 17.6
45% 3 TDs

Randy Moss 16.8(played injured)
48% 8 TDs

M. Robinson 16.6
54% 5 TDs

E. Wilford 16.6
55% 7 TDs

Terrell Owens 16.2
51% 6 TDs

E. Kennison 16.2
63% 5 TDs

Compare all of their catch percentages to those of Lelie and decide for yourself.

Sure catching the long ball IS more difficult but it sure as hell IS NOT an excuse for failure.
Notice anything else? All these WRs have far MORE touchdowns than Lelie.

Way to go Lelie! You couldn't outperform Eddie freakin' Kennison.

[Needa Pass Rush]

Wrong:

Other WRs who led the league in yards/catch:

Terry Glenn: 18.3 (same as Assley)
52% 8 TDs

Santana Moss 17.7 (even though he was double covered all the time)
63% 9 TDs

Marty Booker 17.6
45% 3 TDs

Randy Moss 16.8(played injured)
48% 8 TDs

M. Robinson 16.6
54% 5 TDs

E. Wilford 16.6
55% 7 TDs

Terrell Owens 16.2
51% 6 TDs

E. Kennison 16.2
63% 5 TDs

Compare all of their catch percentages to those of Lelie and decide for yourself.

Sure catching the long ball IS more difficult but it sure as hell IS NOT an excuse for failure.
Notice anything else? All these WRs have far MORE touchdowns than Lelie.

Way to go Lelie! You couldn't outperform Eddie freakin' Kennison.

Whatever. They're all just numbers... still. You could analyze it to death. Trust me.... there is something to what I'm saying.

A guy like Santana Moss likely catches most of his passes within 8 yds of the LOS and then YACs his way to 18 yds per catch. A more high percentage pass.

While you pulling out numbers why don't you look at Kennisons while he was here in Den and compare them to what he has now. I'm sure there will be a story to tell there, too. :wave:

[fontaine]

Whatever. They're all just numbers... still. You could analyze it to death. Trust me.... there is something to what I'm saying.


Yes, I hate over analyzing numbers too, I agree with you on that one man.

But TDs aren't just numbers, they're points on the board.

A guy like Santana Moss likely catches most of his passes within 8 yds of the LOS and then YACs his way to 18 yds per catch. A more high percentage pass.

Yes I know. Lelie sucks at getting Yards after the catch. Would you throw an 8 yard pass at him knowing that he gets jammed at the line, and can't turn upfield and get YAC consistently?


While you pulling out numbers why don't you look at Kennisons while he was here in Den and compare them to what he has now. I'm sure there will be a story to tell there, too. :wave:

Absolutely. You know what that story was?

Kennison CHOSE to quit on his team. He got kicked out and another team put him in as their primary WR even though he's really not that good and is protected by a great pass catching TE.

Looks like Ashlie is choosing to do the exact same thing. I'm sure there will be some other desperate team that would guarantee him a starting position as well(chefs)

[BIM]

Ashley and Javon were picked 19th and 20th in the 2002 draft. Ashley has more receptions and yards in his career. Javon has more TDs and money. Javon also had the better QB. The separation between these two isn't as big as everyone seems to think.
??? He has the QB? During Walker's time in the pros, I think Jake is the better QB than Bret Madden.