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Clockwork Orange
06-18-2006, 11:40 PM
Does this mean that you're done watching? You know, since it's rigged and all. ::)

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-18-2006, 11:42 PM
Whoa! How do you get the Adopt a Bronco thing?

-Slap-
06-18-2006, 11:43 PM
Two weeks ago (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1138966&postcount=967).......:)

06-04-2006, 03:44 AM #967
angryllama
on a mission

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=2331&dateline=1146261018
Kasey Keller

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Abilene, TX
Posts: 6,861

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shaq better show a little better than the last time they played.

Dallas won by what...37? 36? 38?

Miami fans are awfully confident for a team without home court, without an answer for the best player in the post season Nowitzki, and without the benefit of knowing that a Miami Heat team with Shaq has ever beaten Dallas. They are 0-4 against Dirk and co. under Shaq.

Clockwork Orange
06-18-2006, 11:43 PM
Whoa! How do you get the Adopt a Bronco thing?

Click on User CP (top left, same place where you check your rep), click on Edit Profile, scroll down and find the space that says Adopt A Bronco and fill it in however you like.

NFLBRONCO
06-18-2006, 11:43 PM
No worries Heat fans will cry a river next game its a typical NBA thing. Game 3 might come back and haunt the Mavs they had Miami out and blew it.

RhymesayersDU
06-18-2006, 11:45 PM
The NBA fan on average is from a different demographic. You still cant tell me whose shoes and jerseys are the most popular. Why not? Is it because they prove your juvenile trust wrong?
Believe me, I know jersey sales. It makes me smile that Carmelo has been near the top every year he's been in the league.

But that is only one small part of their revenue. They make more from TV revenue, ad sales, and ticket sales and all that.

You can take one small thing and blow it up all you want, but there are so many other issues with the NBA it's absurd. Hell, how much does the NBA really make off jerseys anyways? Reebok makes them and sells them. Same with shoes. You think the NBA gets a penny from my Carmelo's? I'd venture to guess that the Jordan brand and Carmelo Anthony do.

Why can the NFL make ESPN and Fox and ABC and NBC fight over TV contracts? Because the NFL is the number 1 sport in the USA. The NBA doesn't have those numbers, and race has a lot to do with it. Sure, you have inner city youth, but the people with the real buying power (and not just that of a 75 dollar jersey at the mall) are the white businesspeople, and that is who the NBA wants to target.

Do you honestly believe this is all about jersey sales? Pretty small-minded... But then again, Dirk should have been MVP.

epicSocialism4tw
06-18-2006, 11:46 PM
First, I want to congratulate you for having the courage to actually show up after a loss, llama. That's very big and unexpected of you.

Thanks, I always know that you'll be there waiting with your two-penny wit and your half minded analysis.

If you honestly believe that anyone is jealous of you or your team, you must be living 4 feet up your own ass these days instead of the 3 I estimated before. Your classless organization is the envy of no one.

Except for every Nugget fan who dreams that his thuggish brawlers will one day amount to anything more than pot smoking, snitch killing losers. Be patient though, Anthony is a marketable character. He's got success written all over him.

You won't talk about Howard gagging on his own balls or your hero turning back into a soft jump shooter. Nah, you're a Mark Cuban sheep through and through. You're now just rehashing your conspiracy theories from earlier in the playoffs when the Mavs were on the brink of elimination. Funny to see how you've come back to this after all your chest thumping about breaking out the brooms before.Proof positive that there is no such thing as accountability with the Mavs. That goes for the organization and the fanbase.

A truly remarkable piece of literature. You must have put in hard earned hours thinking of ways that you could approach this moment in this message board. The eloquence, the scissor-sharp deductions, the dry wit, the biting quality of the delivery...has there ever been a finer moment on the orangemane? I applaud the sheer poignancy and timeliness of the moment that you captured so beautifully above. I think that I am brought to tears. What a piece.

-Slap-
06-18-2006, 11:47 PM
06-04-2006, 12:15 PM #973 (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1139158&postcount=973)
angryllama
on a mission

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=2331&dateline=1146261018
Kasey Keller

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Abilene, TX
Posts: 6,861

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miami is in trouble. Dallas is the best team in the league. I'm wondering if we should go ahead and get out the brooms or not.

And by the way, this is the same Miami team that Dallas trounced by thirty-something, and no amount of smack talk and "we're different now" talk can change that.
__________________

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/05/23/PH2006052300021.jpg
M R C H O K E

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/thaidict/thailex1/picture/sweep.jpg ?

Bob's your Information Minister
06-18-2006, 11:49 PM
It wouldnt matter if Howard made those free throws or not.

I disagree completely.

Howard makes those, Dallas is up 3 with 36 seconds left.

Miami has to make a three to tie. Unlikely.

epicSocialism4tw
06-18-2006, 11:51 PM
Does this mean that you're done watching? You know, since it's rigged and all. ::)

I am done. I havent watched any coverage of the finals, and havent logged on to the net for anything but world cup coverage. Combined with the official hosing the Uraguayan ref in the US/Italy game and the absurdity of the Superbowl, I think that sports as a whole have become alot less attractive to me.

I'll watch the Dallas boys because I know that they are fighting the machine, but after that I am done.

Clockwork Orange
06-18-2006, 11:53 PM
Thanks, I always know that you'll be there waiting with your two-penny wit and your half minded analysis.

And I know that you'll be here with your delusional conspiracy rantings and Dirk fellating.......if the Mavs win. If they lose, your attendance seems to get a little sketchy.

Except for every Nugget fan who dreams that his thuggish brawlers will one day amount to anything more than pot smoking, snitch killing losers. Be patient though, Anthony is a marketable character. He's got success written all over him.

Yeah, he's also way ahead of Dirk's scoring average at the same age, so he has that going for him too.

But if he doesn't win a championship, I'll just cry about a league conspiracy against him and the Nuggets. Seems to be what "classy" fans like yourself come equipped with.

A truly remarkable piece of literature. You must have put in hard earned hours thinking of ways that you could approach this moment in this message board. The eloquence, the scissor-sharp deductions, the dry wit, the biting quality of the delivery...has there ever been a finer moment on the orangemane? I applaud the sheer poignancy and timeliness of the moment that you captured so beautifully above. I think that I am brought to tears. What a piece.

Anything to avoid talking about your teams shortcomings, right? Priceless.

You should have just stayed on the World Cup thread. Oh wait, all you did was cry about the officiating there too. :rofl:

epicSocialism4tw
06-18-2006, 11:53 PM
Believe me, I know jersey sales. It makes me smile that Carmelo has been near the top every year he's been in the league.

But that is only one small part of their revenue. They make more from TV revenue, ad sales, and ticket sales and all that.

You can take one small thing and blow it up all you want, but there are so many other issues with the NBA it's absurd. Hell, how much does the NBA really make off jerseys anyways? Reebok makes them and sells them. Same with shoes. You think the NBA gets a penny from my Carmelo's? I'd venture to guess that the Jordan brand and Carmelo Anthony do.

Why can the NFL make ESPN and Fox and ABC and NBC fight over TV contracts? Because the NFL is the number 1 sport in the USA. The NBA doesn't have those numbers, and race has a lot to do with it. Sure, you have inner city youth, but the people with the real buying power (and not just that of a 75 dollar jersey at the mall) are the white businesspeople, and that is who the NBA wants to target.

Do you honestly believe this is all about jersey sales? Pretty small-minded... But then again, Dirk should have been MVP.

Jersey sales represent marketing power. The jerseys that sell belong to the players that get the big endorsement deals. The NBA gets a cut.

-Slap-
06-18-2006, 11:54 PM
I am done. I havent watched any coverage of the finals, and havent logged on to the net for anything but world cup coverage. Combined with the official hosing the Uraguayan ref in the US/Italy game and the absurdity of the Superbowl, I think that sports as a whole have become alot less attractive to me.

I'll watch the Dallas boys because I know that they are fighting the machine, but after that I am done.
Done with spectator sports?

Whither goest the Angry Llama?

Bob's your Information Minister
06-18-2006, 11:55 PM
Wade set a record with his 21 made free throws tonight.

RhymesayersDU
06-18-2006, 11:56 PM
Jersey sales represent marketing power. The jerseys that sell belong to the players that get the big endorsement deals. The NBA gets a cut.
They get a cut, but do you think that cut is bigger or more important then TV revenue? I'd venture to say it's not.

epicSocialism4tw
06-18-2006, 11:57 PM
Done with spectator sports?
Whither goest the Angry Llama?

Back to more of Plato, Aristotle, Kirkegaard, Augustine, Neuroscience, gardening, penning music, mountainbiking, my girlfriend, Saul of Tarsus, Moses, and Yeshua.

Clockwork Orange
06-18-2006, 11:57 PM
Wade set a record with his 21 made free throws tonight.

Wade was 4th in the NBA in free throws made and 5th in the NBA in free throws attempted during the season. That's his game.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-18-2006, 11:59 PM
Wade was 4th in the NBA in free throws made and 5th in the NBA in free throws attempted during the season. That's his game.

Yeah I'm sure he was making 21 every night.

Clockwork Orange
06-19-2006, 12:01 AM
Yeah I'm sure he was making 21 every night.

If he got to the line 24 times, he probably would. He attacks the basket and draws contact, he gets to the line a lot. If you actually watched basketball, you might know that.

-Slap-
06-19-2006, 12:02 AM
Back to more of Plato, Aristotle, Kirkegaard, Augustine, Neuroscience, gardening, penning music, mountainbiking, my girlfriend, Saul of Tarsus, Moses, and Yeshua.
Those guys sat around talking yang all day because they didn't want to get jobs. The other stuff is not as good as sports. You'll come crawling back on your belly.

You don't think stealing one of the most revered nicknames in pro sports has caused karma to **** blue lights upon your head then?

epicSocialism4tw
06-19-2006, 12:14 AM
Those guys sat around talking yang all day because they didn't want to get jobs. The other stuff is not as good as sports. You'll come crawling back on your belly.

Philosophy is a necessity to me. One cant live if he doesnt have his bearings. To paraphrase: Is an unexamined life worth living? I am not one to be content with riding the wave without understanding the energy that compels it. There is joy for me in understanding.

As for sports, I am an athlete. I played at a very high level in my youth, and I still love to compete. I enjoy sports and always will. I'm sure that I will catch some things curiously and check on what the Bronco news is here, but I just cant subject myself to the inconsistencies of pro sports. College sports are more trustworthy, but there are serious questions about the integrity of every major American sport in my mind and it's not worth it to endure the wretched campaigns by the concerned industries to keep those consumers in the seats and in the fan shops. It literally makes me ill of mind, and that's not worth it to me.

You don't think stealing one of the most revered nicknames in pro sports has caused karma to **** blue lights upon your head then?

Ha! No....Im not superstitious at all.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-19-2006, 12:14 AM
If he got to the line 24 times, he probably would. He attacks the basket and draws contact, he gets to the line a lot. If you actually watched basketball, you might know that.

ROFL!

OK, whatever dude.

Wade shot 24 free throws COMBINED in the two Dallas games.

HOME MOTHERF*CKIN' COOKIN.'

Clockwork Orange
06-19-2006, 12:20 AM
ROFL!

OK, whatever dude.

Wade shot 24 free throws COMBINED in the two Dallas games.

HOME MOTHER****IN' COOKIN.'

Just like game 3 against San Antonio (in Dallas, no less) when Dirk attempted 24 free throws? You sure didn't mind it then, so spare me your whining now.

It's real simple, dumbass. You attack the basket, you get to the line more. You settle for jumpers, you get to the line less. I know you're a little slow, you are a Chefs fan after all, but I'm confident that even you can figure out that concept.

But keep crying if it makes you feel better.

epicSocialism4tw
06-19-2006, 12:23 AM
Accusations of fixing the finals gnaws at the NBA's integrity By Bill Peterson
Something is seriously amiss with the NBA on the eve of its championship finals, which are alleged to be more made for TV than the law should allow. Of course, speculation as to which teams the league would prefer on its June stage has run for so long as to have become a rite of spring. But the sides of the Milwaukee Bucks' mouths muttered the conspiracy theory with bristling detail last week, which is pretty damaging gossip whether it's true or not.
The Bucks ultimately lost the Eastern Conference Finals to the Philadelphia 76ers in seven games, so they're spared the prohibitive task of tipping off against the Los Angeles Lakers for the league championship. Even before their series ended, though, the Bucks all but came right out and said the fix was in. It wasn't the only sign that the Bucks, and the league, have lost their composure.
The Sixers made 186 trips to the free throw line in the series, compared with only 119 for the Bucks. On the face of it, the Sixers stand to go to the line more often, anyway, because they drive to the basket and the Bucks pull up for the jumper. But the Bucks were outraged by several specific calls, often of the ticky-tack variety on the perimeter.
Beginning after Game 4, when the Bucks said Glenn Robinson was fouled on a fourth-quarter possession that cashed out a layup for the Sixers, the Bucks were distracted by their sense of injustice. In Game 5, early touch fouls were called against Sam Cassell and Ervin Johnson, Cassell went berserk after being stung with a technical, flagrant fouls were called against Robinson and Tim Thomas and a moving screen call went against Jason Caffey. At the end of the game, Robinson missed from the baseline with the game on the line in the final seconds and Ray Allen missed the putback, later to say goaltending should have been called against Dikembe Mutombo.
After that game, Allen told reporters he's suspected the NBA was fixed since he was in high school, adding that members of his family told him they saw NBA Commissioner David Stern carrying on at a game as if he were rooting for the Sixers. Bucks coach George Karl said three other NBA coaches called him to raise the issue. It was Bucks power forward Scott Williams, of all people, who said the Bucks were losing their cool.
So, in Game 6, Sixers star Allan Iverson drove the lane and took an elbow in the face from Williams, who would have to be on his knees to elbow Iverson's ribs. After that game, the NBA revised the call against Williams to flagrant foul 2 from flagrant foul 1, requiring that Williams sit out Game 7.
Just as one hates to see the referees decide games with late calls that are largely subjective, it's disturbing when the league basically decides a series by making a key player sit out on a reversal of a subjective decision. Not that Williams is an All-Pro, but he makes a big difference for that team, which doesn't have enough inside presence even with him. And how the Williams foul is flagrant 2 when the infamous Juwan Howard hack that knocked San Antonio's Derek Anderson out of the playoffs isn't would take some explaining.
It would be wrong, though, based just on this year's playoffs, to conclude that the NBA fixes its results for maximum television revenue. After all, the NBA has lost millions on the Lakers' 11-game blitz through the first three rounds of playoffs, which could have been made longer and more interesting with a few well-timed calls.
But the problem isn't that the NBA is fixed. The problem is that the Bucks can be comfortable talking about the possibility so openly.
The problem isn't that perception is reality, but that perception is everything respecting the integrity of athletic competition. And the NBA doesn't help itself by dismissing and laughing off the suspicion, which, if not confirmed, remains a suspicion.
The NBA's silence on the matter is almost creepy. One would expect some kind of fine against Allen for conduct detrimental to the league. It wouldn't be unprecedented. The issue isn't a lot different from the controversy for which Pete Rose serves a lifetime suspension from baseball.
Whether a league is perceived to be compromised by gambling or its own machinations, any suspicion that the games aren't fairly played and honestly won cuts at the integrity of the competition. Without that integrity, the NBA is professional wrestling or the XFL. The NBA ought to walk every last mile to protect that integrity. Instead, the league just hopes the problem goes away.
Maybe it will. Because the Bucks are right -- the NBA clearly has an interest it pitting the Sixers against the Lakers in this year's finals, which is exactly what it's got. It's national star power and two huge television markets. It's the Lakers, the defending champions and the hottest team in the game, against the Sixers, featuring the MVP who's also the most discussed figure in the league.
Iverson will never be able to get rid of all those tattoos, which will always remind his detractors of his thuggish past. That's unfortunate, because he has otherwise made every effort to resist blowing on himself by saying the right things and acknowledging the right people. He plays hard and hurt and can even be said to be a team player when he hits six of 30, because it's only the threat of his scoring that illuminates the marginal talents with which he's surrounded.
Meanwhile, the Lakers have effected a remarkable transformation since Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant were openly bickering in January. Now they're playing together and patting each other on the back.
The Lakers haven't lost a game in two months, and longtime observers are saying they're playing better than the teams that featured Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain 30 years ago or Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbbar 15 years ago. That's rather extravagant praise, and it's pretty hard to confute.
Among the showcases in these finals is two coaches, Phil Jackson and Larry Brown, who have demonstrated just what an achievement it is to win with great talent. In Brown's case, he's pulled maximum grit out of his role players, who are walking wounded, while reversing his once contentious relationship with Iverson. It's been no small feat to win over Iverson, which has clearly been the key to Philadelphia's success.
Jackson appears to be on his way to winning his eighth NBA championship, but he's not a paragon of humility and a lot of people, frankly, are sick of seeing him win. In some ways, he's comparable with Sparky Anderson, even if the comparison is strained by Anderson's lack of a zen vocabulary. But both have been hammered for winning with talent, as if it's not a coach's prerogative to surround himself with guys who can play.
The problem with talent, though, is that talent knows it's talented, which isn't the same as talent being committed to winning. Anderson and Jackson both have fought that battle adroitly, basically by letting players settle their own conflicts. Both know what many professional coaches forget, that the players are the team. If the players happen to be pretty good, you don't have to say Anderson and Jackson have done their jobs well, so long as you don't forget to give them their rings.
Neither Jackson nor Anderson have been the type to sit quietly in the background, especially when speaking out can deflect pressure and criticism from the players. Sometime early in this finals series, if it doesn't break right for the Lakers, Jackson is sure to make some remarks about the officiating -- but he'll stop short of declaring a fix.
At this point, the NBA doesn't need the criticism. It already has the series it wants.

http://www.citybeat.com/2001-06-07/sports.shtml

epicSocialism4tw
06-19-2006, 12:25 AM
Perception more harmful to NBA than reality
<HR width="100%" noShade SIZE=1>By David Aldridge
Special to ESPN.com
SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- The NBA has a problem.
The problem is not that there is a conspiracy to put the Lakers (or, in their day, the Bulls) in the Finals, or that playoff games are fixed.
The problem is that so many otherwise rational people think there is a conspiracy to put the Lakers (or, in their day, the Bulls) in the Finals, and that playoff games are fixed. The problem is that the very teams who compete now state openly that they expect to get screwed in important games.
For 15 years, I've listened to crackpots tell me how the league is no different than pro wrestling, that I should be ashamed to cover a sport where the results have been determined in advance by a cabal of power-mad men (the list is never the same but frequently includes David Stern, NBC Sports President Dick Ebersol, the heads of various Fortune 500 companies, and once -- only once -- Suzanne Somers). I laugh to myself, for there is nothing I can do to help these people.
And then comes a game like Friday's Game 6 of the Western Conference finals. There is nothing I can say that will explain 27 free throws for the Lakers in the fourth quarter -- an amount staggering in its volume and impact on the game. It gave me pause. How can you explain it? How can you explain a game where Scot Pollard (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3189) fouls out when he's two feet from Shaquille O'Neal (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=847), or that Doug Christie (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=817) is called for a ridiculous touch foul just as Chris Webber (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=1272) spikes Kobe Bryant (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3118)'s drive to the hoop, or that Mike Bibby (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3245) is called for a foul deep in the fourth quarter after Bryant pops him in the nose with an elbow? Regardless of whether the fouls were called correctly or not, they put a black mark on what has been as compelling, dramatic and well-played of a series as I can recall in recent years.
What gives one pause, though, is not that these fouls were called against the Kings in this one game. The pause comes because these fouls were called against the Kings in Los Angeles two days after O'Neal fouled out of Game 5 in Sacramento -- the same game in which Bryant was saddled with five fouls. How can consecutive games be called so diametrically opposite -- with such dramatic differences in the impact on the respective teams?
This is my problem: the 180-degree turns from day to day in the playoffs. One day, Shaq is allowed to drop his shoulder and knock any defender senseless. The very next day, if Shaq looks at Bibby, he gets the foul. How can it be the exact opposite of what it was the game before? And I think people pick up on that, and think something is not right.
I am not speaking here of your garden variety fan who roots for his or her team passionately, sometimes nonsensically, and who will thus create boogeymen to explain his team's losses where none exist. Nor of the poor souls who have to assign the state of their own wretched lives to some unseen, omniscient force. Nor of the professional cranks and nutjobs who earn a living by finding gunmen in grassy knolls -- no, they fired from the bridge above! No, wait -- it was from the sewer below! But of ordinary folks who pay their taxes and hold themselves responsible for their lot in life.
After Game 6, I went out to dinner in L.A. with a couple of sportswriters and three or four other folks who aren't in the business. Each one of us at the table had a college degree. None of us had a dog in this Lakers-Kings fight. But us Sports Guys wanted to see if we were overreacting. So we asked the woman with the business degree who has season tickets to an NBA team (not the Lakers, not the Kings) what her immediate reaction was after watching Friday.
"They stole the game from the Kings," she said, matter of factly.
The next morning, I call for a bellman for help with the bags. The door is open five seconds when he says, and I'm paraphrasing here because I don't generally quote bellmen, "What was up with that game last night? I mean, I'm a Laker fan, so I appreciate the calls. But I don't want to win that way. It was like Chris Webber was saying, 'I can't win, so why should I play hard?' "
Which, if the bellman had been in the Kings' locker room on Friday, was exactly the demeanor he would have seen from Webber. His lip was literally quivering, he was so angry. He spoke in guarded tones about how "we're still the Sacramento Kings (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=sac)" and how he had been told it would be impossible to beat the Lakers Friday. "I was warned," he muttered. Twenty feet away, Vlade Divac (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=84) was asked if he played O'Neal any differently than he had the first five games. "Of course," Divac smirked. "I thought 'Tonight, I will play him very aggressive and foul him every time.' "
You can dismiss this as sour grapes from the losing team. But this has gone on for so long in so many losing locker rooms over the years, it is now part of the postgame procedure: Winning coach compliments spirit of losing team, losing coach laments horrible officiating. It is so matter-of-fact as to be a cliche: We got the calls tonight; they'll get the calls tomorrow. Only in the NBA does a coach who's won eight championships whine more than a stuck engine valve about refs. You may hear Lou Pinella rant about the strike zone on Monday, but he's not still at it on Thursday. Officials blow calls every Sunday in the NFL, but that league makes sure you know about it on Tuesday, while the NBA still muzzles all discussion about its officials' performance.
So why do NBA coaches do it?
Because it appears to work.
When Phil Jackson gripes about the Knicks and Pistons not allowing flow and freedom in a game -- when he says that Dennis Rodman is being persecuted; when he says that Shaq isn't being allowed the same freedoms a man six inches shorter receives -- he's not talking to the guy or gal that asked him the question in the news conference, and he's not talking to you, dear reader. He's talking to the three people in the striped shirts who will call the next game.
Please understand: I think NBA refs have the hardest job officiating of all the major sports, and that includes the guys who do it on skates. Basketball -- and pro basketball in particular -- has more subjective calls in a half than you'll see in a season of football. Block or charge? Did he jump straight up, or come over the back? Is he hooking, or using leverage? And I think because the game is so subjective to call, no one knows what to expect night in and out.
The NBA also suffers because of the nature of the game. One dominant player out of five will necessarily have more impact than one out of nine in baseball (including the pitcher, who only plays once every four or five days) or one of 11 in football. So someone like Michael Jordan (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=175) or Magic Johnson or Larry Bird or Isiah Thomas -- or Shaq -- tends to win more often than in baseball or football. This tends to lead to the same teams winning championships -- which creates the impression that this is desired by the Commish, the networks and advertisers looking for common themes, one-name superstars and storylines to sell to the public.
(Of course, the public is as hypocritical on this as it is on so many things. The very people who say they're sick of seeing the same faces win year after year in the NBA are the same folks who stayed away in droves, and didn't watch, during the league's most democratic era -- the 1970s, when talented if nondescript teams like Golden State, Washington, Portland and Seattle won championships.)
I acknowledge I am at a loss about what to do. The Commish acknowledged last week that the game has gotten, in some ways, too quick for the refs, which is why he's now behind some form of instant replay. The Competition Committee will receive a proposal from the league for replay at its meeting this week. And here, the NBA can learn from the NFL, which is always perceived as tinkering with its game to improve officiating and make the game more pleasant for fans.
Of course, the NFL often does no such thing. But people think it does.
Perception is reality.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2002/columns/aldridge_david/1389713.html

epicSocialism4tw
06-19-2006, 12:26 AM
Bucks think Sixers are getting all the calls
Associated Press

MILWAUKEE -- Stopping just short of alleging an outright anti-Bucks conspiracy, Ray Allen (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3080) said Thursday that the NBA would prefer to see the Philadelphia 76ers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=phi) face the Los Angeles Lakers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=lal) in the finals. <TABLE cellSpacing=0 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=2>
</TD><TD width=65>http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3080.jpg</TD></TR><TR><TD width=2>
</TD><TD width=65>Allen</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>"I think there's no question about that. The league, as a marketing machine, the bottom line is about making money," Allen said. "It behooves everybody for the league to make more money, and the league knows that Philadelphia is going to make more money with L.A. than we would with L.A." Coming off a crushing one-point Game 5 loss in which two flagrant fouls and a technical foul cost the Bucks dearly, Milwaukee now faces a must-win situation in Game 6 Friday night. The best-of-seven series is tied 3-3, with the winner of Sunday's finale in Philadelphia moving on to face the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA Finals beginning next Wednesday. The Bucks have complained about the officiating since Game 4, when they felt Glenn Robinson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=2624) was fouled on a crucial possession late in the fourth quarter that turned into a breakaway layup for the 76ers. In Game 5, Sam Cassell (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=1295)'s technical foul and flagrant fouls on Robinson and Tim Thomas (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3170) resulted in a five-point possession and two four-point possessions for Philadelphia, and the Bucks admitted that those three mistakes cost them the game. <!---------------------PULL-QUOTE TABLE (BEGIN)---------------------><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width=4><SPACER height="1" width="3" type="block"></TD><TD>“</TD><TD width=225>It behooves everybody for the league to make more money, and the league knows that Philadelphia is going to make more money with L.A. than we would with L.A. ”</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width=4><SPACER height="1" width="3" type="block"></TD><TD>
</TD><TD width=225>— Ray Allen</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!---------------------PULL-QUOTE TABLE (END)--------------------->But aside from what they felt was the questionable nature of those calls, the Bucks also had a problem with several other whistles -- touch fouls on Cassell and Ervin Johnson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=1294) early in the game and a moving screen call on Jason Caffey (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3022) late in the fourth quarter. Cassell's complaining began in the first quarter when he pump-faked Allen Iverson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3094) off his feet and Iverson whacked him hard on the arm. No foul was called, even though the play happened directly in front of referee Ronnie Nunn. "Nine times out of 10 when you have a referee you know there's no biases," Allen said. "But in the back of everybody's minds it's like Philadelphia and the MVP needs to play in the finals. "I used to always think the series were fixed when I was in high school, then when I got to the NBA I said there's no way they could be fixed. But even last year against Indiana in Game 5 (of Milwaukee's first-round series) it seemed like everything went against us," Allen said. The NBA assigns its veteran referees to work playoff games based upon merit. Different teams have complained throughout the years that superstars receive preferential treatment from the officials, and the Bucks are merely the latest upstarts to learn that playoff games at the end of May are often called differently than regular-season games. Complaining about specific calls is one thing; alleging a conspiracy is another. And though nobody on the Bucks came right out and said it, all the questions about a conspiracy theory found a welcoming audience. Allen said members of his family had told him that they were sitting across from NBA commissioner David Stern on Sunday and noticed him stand up to watch a replay after it appeared Allen got away with committing a foul against Iverson that wasn't called. "He jumped up real mad like he was cheering for Philly," Allen said. Bucks coach George Karl said conspiracy theories were "summer talk," although he claimed three other NBA coaches had called him after Game 5 to raise that very issue. "Sam Cassell said that Kevin Garnett (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3007) and Rod Strickland (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=327) had called him, so it's out there," Karl said. The NBA has always laughed off the charge, but conspiracy theorists often point to Game 7 of the 1993 Western Conference finals in making their case -- saying Phoenix got an inordinate number of calls against Seattle because the league wanted to see a Suns-Chicago Bulls final. "Here was the scenario: A Barkley-Jordan final, and Barkley did a commercial for NBC three weeks before the finals -- and he told me about it. And then they shoot 67 free throws in the final game," said Karl, who coached the SuperSonics in that game. There were 100 foul shots taken in that game, 64 by the Suns. Seattle was called for 38 personal fouls and had three players disqualified; Phoenix was whistled for 27 fouls and had no one foul out. "So there's a little paranoia there, but tomorrow night that means nothing," Karl said. "The board room is behind closed doors in New York City, so no one's ever going to know. NBA spokesman Brian McIntyre said the league had no comment on the Bucks' remarks. Supervisor of officials Ed Rush did not return a phone call to his Phoenix office. In the history of the NBA playoffs, teams that have taken a 3-2 lead in Game 5 have gone on to win the series 83 percent of the time. One of the exceptions was this year's Bucks, who dropped three straight games to the Charlotte Hornets (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=cha) in the second round before coming back and winning Games 6 and 7. The Bucks continue to defiantly insist they are the better team, and they believe they will win Games 6 and 7 if they continue to hold Iverson in check. Iverson has shot just 33-for-120 (27 percent) from the field during the series as the Bucks have hugely overplayed him to his right, forcing Iverson to go to his left. "In the Toronto series everybody said you had to double-team him, but have you seen him go left and score?" Allen asked. "That's all he wants to do is go right, and if he goes left he's going to jump back to the right. "So he can't score going to his left unless he passes the ball, but if he goes right he's the biggest scoring threat in the world." Only Game 6 will tell if that strategy will continue to work -- and whether people will continue to believe that an anti-Bucks conspiracy exists. "I'm not alleging a conspiracy, I'm not getting caught up in anything that I think the league has going on or what they might want," Allen said. "I'm just saying if we control what we can control, we'll be in L.A. playing the Lakers. "If we play like we're capable of playing and not let the referees have a hand in the outcome of the game, then we'll have nothing to worry about."

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2001/2001/0531/1208098.html (http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2001/2001/0531/1208098.html)

FantomForce
06-19-2006, 01:53 AM
Heat all the way tonight!:thumbs:
Damn I love to be right, but damn that was way to close

Northman
06-19-2006, 02:31 AM
It wouldnt matter if Howard made those free throws or not. Wade would have gotten to the line no matter how many times he shot the ball. Dirk made the shot that should have won the game. Wade countered it by bricking an ill advised low percentage shot among three players and was given an anticipation whistle.

What's much easier is for you to continue to ignore something that is as obvious as daylight in front of your face for the sake of continuing a jealousy-based grudge.


So let me get this straight? You have two games at home and your already writing off your team? Typical of you lama. When things dont go your way your so quick to blame somone else other than your team not stepping up when they need too. Dallas has been a monster at home so why you would abandon your team now is sad and pathetic. Obviously anything can happen but the chance of Miami winning in Dallas is almost nil. Lets face it, Miami just has a better D than Dallas and have played more physical ( at least at home ) than Dallas. Even with all that Dallas still had a chance to pull out that game last night.

Northman
06-19-2006, 02:33 AM
Forget Howard, I really enjoy the fact that the Mav-Faithful are dancing around the fact that for the second game in this series Dirk "The Almighty God And Should Have Been MVP" Nowitzki has missed an important free throw late in the game.


Wait? didnt you see the ref jump up behind Dirk and make him miss that?

Northman
06-19-2006, 02:37 AM
I love this guy!

ROFL!


Now, watch and see if the Mavs win the series. Llama will be in here with the " I told you so's and spewing about how his Mavs overcame adversity yada yada yada ". ROFL!

ro_50
06-19-2006, 06:33 AM
Mavs fans complaining about the officiating. What a novel concept. Their team whine and complains so much but yet they insist the Spurs do it more.

But what goes around comes around. The Spurs after they lost, gave all the credit to the Mavs for beating them and most of its fans did as well (I did).

But to see the Mavs fans complaining, come on, get over it. They blew leads in games 3 and 5.

BroncoInferno
06-19-2006, 06:34 AM
I hate to agree with Llama, but that foul call was atrocious. Wade was not touched.

EDIT: OK, I see all his whining and threats to stop watching b-ball (what I call the the "you-made-me-mad-I'm-taking the ball-home-and-tell-Mommy!" syndrome); my sympathy is rescinded.

BroncoInferno
06-19-2006, 06:43 AM
Back to more of Plato, Aristotle, Kirkegaard, Augustine, Neuroscience, gardening, penning music, mountainbiking, my girlfriend, Saul of Tarsus, Moses, and Yeshua.

Translation: I will continue to pretend I'm an intellectual.

ro_50
06-19-2006, 07:00 AM
Llama needs to get over it.

The Mavs still have a good chance to win the series but they whine too much.

Nuggets4
06-19-2006, 07:35 AM
This thread delivers on so many levels it's not even funny.

Mavs "fans" (and by that I mean Bob and Llama, not the good Mavs fans) -- shut up. I never heard any of you bitch about the officiating up to this point. The same officiating that has given Dirk an NBA record free throw attempts in the playoffs. And llama, if you're that ****ing dilusional about the NBA being corrupt, stop watching, stop bitching and unplug your computer so we don't have to hear about it. You just sound like a whiny little bitch.

Rulon Velvet Jones, feel free to ignore the previous paragraph.

Master___Pain
06-19-2006, 08:22 AM
Mavs "fans" (and by that I mean Bob and Llama, not the good Mavs fans) -- shut up. I never heard any of you b**** about the officiating up to this point. The same officiating that has given Dirk an NBA record free throw attempts in the playoffs. And llama, if you're that ****ing dilusional about the NBA being corrupt, stop watching, stop b****ing and unplug your computer so we don't have to hear about it. You just sound like a whiny little b****.

Quoted for truth ROFL!

freak6
06-19-2006, 08:27 AM
The foul they called with 1:30 to go in OT was so blatantly wrong, I've never seen a worse call in my life. But it was D. Wade...pfff

Master___Pain
06-19-2006, 08:30 AM
The foul they called with 1:30 to go in OT was so blatantly wrong, I've never seen a worse call in my life. But it was D. Wade...pfff

The one where Wade dribbled from the three point line and spun around the free throw line? I can't remember the players for the Mavs on that one, but the player that was closer to the three point line bumped Wade pretty good.

I am surprised Mav fan have not accused Bennet Salvatore of handing the Heat a bucket when Wade fell out of bounds on Salvatore, stayed down for a couple of momments and then was wide open under the hoop for an easy dunk.

freak6
06-19-2006, 08:38 AM
The one where Wade dribbled from the three point line and spun around the free throw line? I can't remember the players for the Mavs on that one, but the player that was closer to the three point line bumped Wade pretty good.



I play a ton of basketball, and that was not a foul. It was a pick and roll, Harris got picked as Wade went left around it. Then Howard whose man set the pick, stepped up and was set right at the FT line, Wade who was going left spun back to his right, his backside slammed into Howard at the FT line who was set. Wade was out of control, and Howard got called for a foul...for what I have no idea.

Hubie Browns apologetic sorry ass goes "And you can see the player is moving", as if by telling you what you are seeing is going to make the video display his words.

Memo to Hubie Brown, you are not Bruce Almighty!!!

It was clearly a charge on Wade, or a travel, but not a foul on Howard which led to 2 points, the difference in the game being 1 pt. Worst call ever imo.

Master___Pain
06-19-2006, 08:45 AM
I play a ton of basketball, and that was not a foul. It was a pick and roll, Harris got picked as Wade went left around it. Then Howard whose man set the pick, stepped up and was set right at the FT line, Wade who was going left spun back to his right, his backside slammed into Howard at the FT line who was set. Wade was out of control, and Howard got called for a foul...for what I have no idea.

Hubie Browns apologetic sorry ass goes "And you can see the player is moving", as if by telling you what you are seeing is going to make the video display his words.

Memo to Hubie Brown, you are not Bruce Almighty!!!

It was clearly a charge on Wade, or a travel, but not a foul on Howard which led to 2 points, the difference in the game being 1 pt. Worst call ever imo.


Huh.... I was watching the game but listening to music so I did not here the commentators. Howard did not look set to me, but that's just my take. Hardly the worst call ever. I thought is was a travel, block on Howard or a foul on Harris. Could have gone either way. Reminds me of the Champ Bailey INT return against the Pats. That call could have gone either way, but either way it was going to be called was not going to be "the worst call ever"

And since how much B-Ball a poster has played is relevant to this thread, I too play a lot of basketball.???

freak6
06-19-2006, 08:50 AM
And since how much B-Ball a poster has played is relevant to this thread, I too play a lot of basketball.???

Because an experianced ball player recognizes a player out of control. Howard was set because Wade spun back underneath the pick, where Howard was coming from. I'm trying to find a replay of it, it was an awful call.

Master___Pain
06-19-2006, 09:00 AM
Because an experianced ball player recognizes a player out of control. Howard was set because Wade spun back underneath the pick, where Howard was coming from. I'm trying to find a replay of it, it was an awful call.

Freak you could very well be correct, I saw the play live and the ensuing replay that's it just two times. As I said before I would not have been surprised by any of the calls that could have beeen made. I certainly did not think it was the worst call ever....iffy maybe but not even awful.

2KBack
06-19-2006, 09:37 AM
Because an experianced ball player recognizes a player out of control. Howard was set because Wade spun back underneath the pick, where Howard was coming from. I'm trying to find a replay of it, it was an awful call.

Howard may have been set, though I didn't think so from the replay, but I certainly don't think Wade was out of control. That's a hard thing to tell with reckless abandon players like him.

freak6
06-19-2006, 10:11 AM
Howard may have been set, though I didn't think so from the replay, but I certainly don't think Wade was out of control. That's a hard thing to tell with reckless abandon players like him.

Anytime a player spins hard like that, and his backside slams into a set player, it is a charge. It's one of the those plays that noone remembers. Like Sharpe's holding penalty in SB32 that TD broke to the goalline. Noone remembers that call, because Mike called the same play again, and it worked even better the 2nd time. I think that is when Eddie Mac got that block and pointed at that LB he tattooed. Anyway, plays like that decide games, it's not just the last second shots.

I can't find the replay, it's buried, but if you saw it again, you'd see what a bs call it was.

-Slap-
06-19-2006, 10:12 AM
I think it was the best call ever.

freak6
06-19-2006, 10:43 AM
I think it was the best call ever.

I just hate seeing superstars get bail out calls because of who they are. That is the best example of a bail out call I've ever seen.

ro_50
06-19-2006, 10:52 AM
I just hate seeing superstars get bail out calls because of who they are. That is the best example of a bail out call I've ever seen.


Just like Bruce Bowen's foul on Dirk in game 4 and TD's sixth foul on Dirk in game 3.

Dirk got the calls and now Wade is. Sweet Justice if you ask me as a Spurs fan.

Mavs fans now know what its like to feel like the calls go against you.

But thats not the reason the Spurs lost to the Mavs, Dallas outplayed them in game 7 when it mattered.

Dallas should stop its whining and just focus on the task at hand. They have two home games, are tough to beat down there and it took two Wade miracles for Miami to be up 3-2.

freak6
06-19-2006, 10:59 AM
They have two home games, are tough to beat down there and it took two Wade miracles for Miami to be up 3-2.

Miracles? I don't look at them as such. Wade is uber clutch, I expect him to make those shots now. Besides, that banker wasn't a miracle, it was just a nice move going to his right (can't let him go right in that situation), and he stopped and hung in the air. Really wasn't a difficult shot, its his insane athleticism that got him to beat Griffith and then stop and elevate as Griffith did his best to stay with him, but the incidental contact and momemtum made him hit the deck. Just a great move by a great player. I expect him to make these kind of plays now, Wade has elevated himself the last 2 years into elite superstar status. They could have beaten the Pistons last year if he wasnt hurt.

SportinOne
06-19-2006, 11:04 AM
Wait.. So you are telling me that the biggest star players get the best calls? No way, that'd be like the star pitchers of Major League Baseball getting a little bit of a bigger strike zone.

P.S. We landed on the moon!

Nuggets4
06-19-2006, 11:24 AM
P.S. We landed on the moon!

http://images.art.com/images/-/Jim-Carrey---Dumb-Dumber--C10102378.jpeg

WE LANDED ON THE MOON!

ro_50
06-19-2006, 11:51 AM
Miracles? I don't look at them as such. Wade is uber clutch, I expect him to make those shots now. Besides, that banker wasn't a miracle, it was just a nice move going to his right (can't let him go right in that situation), and he stopped and hung in the air. Really wasn't a difficult shot, its his insane athleticism that got him to beat Griffith and then stop and elevate as Griffith did his best to stay with him, but the incidental contact and momemtum made him hit the deck. Just a great move by a great player. I expect him to make these kind of plays now, Wade has elevated himself the last 2 years into elite superstar status. They could have beaten the Pistons last year if he wasnt hurt.


I meant to say that Wade's performance wasn't a miracle, but to say that two incredible performances from a great player for the Heat to win by the slimmest of margins.

Wade's sensational and downright amazing to watch.

GonzoLays
06-19-2006, 12:36 PM
MELTDOWN


I have been completely disillusioned by this series. I feel like the idiot who took the bait and got hooked. I dont know if I'll be able to stomach another year of this stuff. From the beginning, the league has marketed their superstar players in the finals. All of the media has concerned Wade and Shaq, with the Jordan comparisons flying wildly about. Then the ref gaffes begin...

One or two missed calls is not a big deal...you go on and you play through them. But continued imbalance and inconsistencies have added up over the course of the series to mount to something that shows me I'm an idiot for buying a ticket to an NBA game. The series opener saw Shaq elbow Nowitzki in the face when the two were alone under the basket. an elbow above the shoulders is an ejectable, suspendable offense. To make matters worse, Shaq elbows Stackhouse in the face later in the same game and opens a gash on his nose that requires three stitches to close. The league didnt address either instance. O'Neal has been allowed to throw players around in the lane using his hands and elbows throughout the entire series and has not been called for blocking fouls when sticking his arms out into shooters without making an attempt to block the shot. Later in the series, Udonis Haslem laid a hard blow across Terry's face while Terry dunked the ball. He knocked Terry off balance in the air, and Terry crashed onto his back. This play is no different than the one that Stackhouse hit Joe Johnson with in the playoffs last season. This is now a suspendable offense. Needless to say, neither O'Neal or Haslem were fined or suspended.

There is a double standard when the league addresses illegal play, and there is a double standard when whistling fouls on the floor. Miami has been allowed to hand check and slap at nowitzki for the run of the series, while a breath on Dwyane Wade is called a foul. The worst example of which was the final series of plays in game 5, where Dirk is mugged (fouled by O'Neal) while still hitting the shot with 9.1 left on the clock, and on the other end Wade throws up a shot between 3 players, and is given a "benefit of the doubt" whistle where Craword pegs Nowitzki with a foul, when Nowitzki was clearly playing good defense. The double standard is obvious. This was just one sequence where it was evident. Dwyane Wade shot more free throws than the entire Mavs team.

This series has been officiated with the benefit clearly and blatantly in the favor of the Miami Heat and their star players. The NBA is a joke. Bogus. Bunk. Fixed. A fraud.

They are in the business of selling product. Is it any wonder that the team that they are promoting so heavily is the one on the receiving end of the officiating? They are in the business of controlling consumers, in maintaining revenue, in selling shoes, in selling jerseys to kids.



It wouldnt matter if Howard made those free throws or not. Wade would have gotten to the line no matter how many times he shot the ball. Dirk made the shot that should have won the game. Wade countered it by bricking an ill advised low percentage shot among three players and was given an anticipation whistle.

What's much easier is for you to continue to ignore something that is as obvious as daylight in front of your face for the sake of continuing a jealousy-based grudge.


The NBA is a joke. Have fun with your misplaced trust in the innocence of sport.

Meltdown! I thought this team was the "worst team Dallas has faced in the playoffs."

http://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/music/larue/camps/Little%20Jason%20-%20Emotional%20Meltdown.jpg

Northman
06-19-2006, 12:44 PM
You want the Sole reason why the Mavs lost last night? Ill give it too ya. Finesse vs Physical play. Its that simple.


First things first, before i get into why the Mavs really lost lets look at some of the other things. The Officiating in these playoffs has been atrocious beyond belief but it has worked against all teams not just one here or there. Mavs fans say that Wade got to the line too much. Well, duh. Wade is a physical offensive player and thus will get hacked a lot. But.. If it wasnt for the Mavs playing Hack a Shaq the Mavs would have never been in the penalty as much as they were. They just kept fouling Shaq throughout the game so there is no shock as too why the Heat were shooting free throws all night.

Not only that but the Heat missed 17 free throws to boot as opposed to 10 missed free throws by the Mavs. Technically, the Heat should have won this game by a mile anyway. But that is still not why the Mavs lost this game. This game hinged on two similiar plays made by two different players.

Fact 1: At the end of regulation Jason Terry receives the ball and puts up the final shot in which he has to arch it over 3 defenders. Not only that but Terry decides to perform a fade jumper in order to clear the ball over the defenders. Terry's biggest mistake here is that the game was tied. He had nothing to lose whatsover so why not try to jump into the defenders and draw the foul? I have more of a problem with this but ill get into it after my next point.

Fact 2: At the end of OT Dwayne Wade receives the ball and continues to drive towards the basket. Keep in mind that the Mavs are already in the penalty so ANY kind of body foul or reach in can send Wade to the free throw line. For the most part the Mavs play Wade well but Wade being the Superstar he is drives between 3 defenders and puts the ball up and draws the foul. Wade hits both free throws, end of game.


Now, this is where im confused with Llama and anyone who has been giving me the Dirk is a Superstar response. If you have a SUPERSTAR on your team and the game is on the line wouldnt you do ANYTHING you could to get the ball into that person's hands? Now before i get ridiculed for coming down on Dirk im not saying he isnt a great player. Im merely pointing out a fact of either bad coaching or a player not playing up to his potential. If im Avery Johnson i set up a play to get Dirk the ball at the end of regulation, not Terry. Dirk had some monster shots towards the end of the game and was clutch.

So why did Johnson choose not too put the ball into his best player's hands? Even if Dirk didnt have a great look he could have passed it to someone who was open as Dirk had been making great passes all night. On the other hand, Riley knew to put the ball into his best player's hands. Sure, Shaq is a HOF and Allstar but Shaq also hasnt been a factor in this series. Wade was the hot hand just like Dirk was for the Mavs only one guy got the ball while the other didnt. Although Dirk is distributing the ball well he really isnt taking charge of his team. If Dirk is going to be the face of the Dallas Mavericks he is going to have to at times put that team on his back and run with it. Not just in a game during the regular season but when it matters most.

But i read last night someone say that the Mavs are a soft team. Commentators today reiterated that same fact by saying the Mavs are getting too comfortable shooting jumpers instead of taking it to the basket. The last 3 games have seen the Heat playing much more physical than Dallas. Overall, there are 2 games left in which the Mavs will more than likely win them. They have much more firepower than the Heat and will be at home which they love. But to whine about officiating or claiming it to be the reason they lost is bogus. The proof is in the pudding, the Mavs had multiple chances to win last night and didnt get it done.

freak6
06-19-2006, 01:22 PM
I meant to say that Wade's performance wasn't a miracle, but to say that two incredible performances from a great player for the Heat to win by the slimmest of margins.

Wade's sensational and downright amazing to watch.

True, kid is fun to watch.

RhymesayersDU
06-19-2006, 01:22 PM
I wonder who wins in a meltdown contest.... orange 4 life and jakeplummer/jay cutler, or llama and this series (and believe me, if the Heat take a game in Dallas it's gunna be epic)??

Northman
06-19-2006, 01:27 PM
I wonder who wins in a meltdown contest.... orange 4 life and jakeplummer/jay cutler, or llama and this series (and believe me, if the Heat take a game in Dallas it's gunna be epic)??


I doubt Llama has the kind of breakdown that O4L did. Llama has already warmed up his excuse in case they do lose to the Heat. O4L just didnt see the draft pick coming and thus vented. :~ohyah!:

Master___Pain
06-19-2006, 01:27 PM
I wonder who wins in a meltdown contest.... orange 4 life and jakeplummer/jay cutler, or llama and this series (and believe me, if the Heat take a game in Dallas it's gunna be epic)??

Well, since Llama is no longer watching the series and does not care I would have to go with orange 4 life

Northman
06-19-2006, 01:33 PM
Well, since Llama is no longer watching the series and does not care I would have to go with orange 4 life


You really dont believe that do you? If the Mavs win Llama will be in here and wont leave until every maner knows that the Mavs have won the NBA Championship.

Master___Pain
06-19-2006, 02:09 PM
You really dont believe that do you? If the Mavs win Llama will be in here and wont leave until every maner knows that the Mavs have won the NBA Championship.

I was being completely facetious. He's been conspicuously absent from this thread since game 4.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
06-19-2006, 03:53 PM
MELTDOWN











Meltdown! I thought this team was the "worst team Dallas has faced in the playoffs."

http://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/music/larue/camps/Little%20Jason%20-%20Emotional%20Meltdown.jpg

:rofl: ^5

Clockwork Orange
06-19-2006, 10:42 PM
Turns out that this wasn't the first time that Josh Howard has had timeout issues.

Wake loses after calling timeout it didn't have (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=220550120)

COLLEGE PARK, Md. (AP) -- Josh Howard sat in front of his locker, sobbing uncontrollably with his head buried in a towel.

Playing with a painful sprained left ankle, Howard had 18 points and 15 rebounds in 25 gritty minutes for Wake Forest (No. 21 ESPN/USA Today, No. 20 AP)on Sunday. But the junior forward also made a mistake that will haunt him for the rest of his life.

Juan Dixon made a technical foul shot with 1.3 seconds left after Howard called a timeout the Demon Deacons didn't have, giving No. 2 Maryland a 90-89 comeback victory.

SoCalBronco
06-19-2006, 10:56 PM
You want the Sole reason why the Mavs lost last night? .

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6076/boob1ov.jpg

Dallas would have already wrapped up this series had Bob not jumped on the bandwagon.

He's basically going to ruin it for RVJ and the Llama. He's going to singlehandedly mess it up for Dallas fans. You might not like Dallas, but that's just wrong.

(I wanted to use Pendejo's absolutely brilliant Bob avatar instead of the generic picture but unfortuneatly he took it down :( ).

epicSocialism4tw
06-19-2006, 11:12 PM
If Wade goes to the hole and not to the line, the Heat are done.For Dallas, it's foul trouble -- they have the right guys to guard Shaq and Wade, but you can't predict those games when all the calls start going Miami's way. And that's the thing that bothers me about this series: No team depends on the refs quite like the Heat. When the refs are calling all the bumps on Shaq and protecting Wade on every drive, they're unstoppable. When they're calling everything fairly, they're eminently beatable. If they're not getting any calls, they're just about hopeless. I could see the refs swinging two games in Miami's favor during this series, possibly three. In fact, I'm already depressed about it and the series hasn't even started yet.
-Bill Simmons, Page 2

Northman
06-20-2006, 02:19 AM
Blame Johnson then, he is the one calling for the intentional fouls on Shaq. If your going to influence the refs by intentionally fouling a player your going to be in the penalty real quick. Dallas should just man up and play them and quit being being scared.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 03:48 AM
Whatever. I didn't predict anything in the finals. I've been nothing but good luck.

ro_50
06-20-2006, 06:28 AM
You know, lets go back a month and see how the Spurs talked in the media about the officiating (which was questionable at best during the Spurs-Mavs series), did Pop ever complained about it - NO.

Sure, there were a couple of comments from Bowen and TD, but its wasnt a whiny comment.

Remember how Llama and Bob would potray the Spurs as being whiners and complainers but never insist their team, the Mavs, whine and complain.

All I have to say is once again: WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.

Stop the complaining and just play. Tell your owner to stop his whining and immature facial reactions and tell your coach, AJ, who I admire a lot, to act like a professional in the media room.

And tell Dirk to stop kicking exercise bikes on his way out.

RhymesayersDU
06-20-2006, 06:45 AM
http://www.espn.go.com/photo/2006/0619/pg2_philcuban_385.jpg

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/quickie

The Lead Item
Two Words For You:
STOP. WHINING.

If the Mavs did less whining and more concentrating, maybe they wouldn't be facing elimination in the NBA Finals.

Start with the most glaring: Josh Howard insists he didn't call that timeout in between Dwayne Wade's free throws at the end of OT.

Stop whining! Don't you think that if the refs could possibly have waved off Howard's hand signal, they would have?

("Forced to call it, simple as that," ref Joey Crawford told Marc Stein.)

Back up from there: Coach Avery Johnson spent his postgame press conference complaining that Wade wasn't fouled by Dirk on that final play. "What do you think?" he kept repeating.

Stop whining! Maybe Johnson should have been worrying less about that particular call and more about stopping Wade generally. Dwyane scorched Dallas for 43, including 15 of the Heat's final 19 points.

(Wade's 23 free throws prior to that call should also have been an indication that he was drawing fouls and was going to get that call if it was close.)

Even owner Mark Cuban got into it: Heading into Sunday night, the weekend's biggest whine from the Mavs was over Jerry Stackhouse's suspension, so Cuban wore a Mavericks "42" jersey, presumably in solidarity.

Stop whining! It might have shown solidarity with Stack, but it didn't show much faith in the rest of the players, who managed to scrap together their most spirited effort of the Finals -- without the aid of any intentional fouling.

Now, compare all that griping to the way the Heat handled themselves after those first two losses in Dallas:

Shaq wouldn't talk to the media after his awful Game 2, but at least he wasn't making excuses; Pat Riley kept saying the Heat simply have to play better.

There might be two games left (both in Dallas, no less), but psychologically this series is over, based on the Mavs' defeatist, "we wuz robbed" whining.

Dallas' game plan for the rest of the Finals should be simple:

Get over it.

RhymesayersDU
06-20-2006, 06:49 AM
In other NBA news, from Page 2:

-Chris Bosh: Reportedly will sign 6-year ext. with Raptors

-Cuban Blog Report: No update on the blog after Sunday night's debacle. Have to imagine he'll weigh in on the TO controversy today.

-Quickie fave Jordan Farmar will stay in the NBA draft, perhaps after posting a 42-inch(!) vertical. Teammate Arron Afflalo will go back to school.

-More NBA draft: Pitt 7-footer Aaron Gray will go back to school; Texas PG Daniel Gibson will stay in the draft (enjoy that second round, dude).

-Sixers chairman Ed Snider denies the newspaper report that he has ordered the trade of Allen Iverson. Why back away from it? The Sixers should trade AI.

ro_50
06-20-2006, 06:52 AM
http://www.espn.go.com/photo/2006/0619/pg2_philcuban_385.jpg

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/quickie

The Lead Item
Two Words For You:
STOP. WHINING.

If the Mavs did less whining and more concentrating, maybe they wouldn't be facing elimination in the NBA Finals.

Start with the most glaring: Josh Howard insists he didn't call that timeout in between Dwayne Wade's free throws at the end of OT.

Stop whining! Don't you think that if the refs could possibly have waved off Howard's hand signal, they would have?

("Forced to call it, simple as that," ref Joey Crawford told Marc Stein.)

Back up from there: Coach Avery Johnson spent his postgame press conference complaining that Wade wasn't fouled by Dirk on that final play. "What do you think?" he kept repeating.

Stop whining! Maybe Johnson should have been worrying less about that particular call and more about stopping Wade generally. Dwyane scorched Dallas for 43, including 15 of the Heat's final 19 points.

(Wade's 23 free throws prior to that call should also have been an indication that he was drawing fouls and was going to get that call if it was close.)

Even owner Mark Cuban got into it: Heading into Sunday night, the weekend's biggest whine from the Mavs was over Jerry Stackhouse's suspension, so Cuban wore a Mavericks "42" jersey, presumably in solidarity.

Stop whining! It might have shown solidarity with Stack, but it didn't show much faith in the rest of the players, who managed to scrap together their most spirited effort of the Finals -- without the aid of any intentional fouling.

Now, compare all that griping to the way the Heat handled themselves after those first two losses in Dallas:

Shaq wouldn't talk to the media after his awful Game 2, but at least he wasn't making excuses; Pat Riley kept saying the Heat simply have to play better.

There might be two games left (both in Dallas, no less), but psychologically this series is over, based on the Mavs' defeatist, "we wuz robbed" whining.

Dallas' game plan for the rest of the Finals should be simple:

Get over it.


That speaks the truth. For a team that is really damn good like Dallas, I havent seen a team that good b*tch and complain in many years of watching the game closely.

They need to get over it.

You can tell they are acting like Finals rookies and not veterans because they havent been in this position before.

Remember when the Spurs lost to the Mavs after game 7, did Pop complain? No. All of the players commended the Mavs for winning and they went on towards the off-season.

Another just another DAMN example on which team is more classy, the Spurs or Mavs.

The Heat havent offered any excuses to why they lost the first two except to say they need to play better.

I havent heard a lot of talk from the Mavs players giving the Heat credit.

All I hear is crying, crying and more crying.

ro_50
06-20-2006, 06:53 AM
In other NBA news, from Page 2:

-Chris Bosh: Reportedly will sign 6-year ext. with Raptors

-Cuban Blog Report: No update on the blog after Sunday night's debacle. Have to imagine he'll weigh in on the TO controversy today.

-Quickie fave Jordan Farmar will stay in the NBA draft, perhaps after posting a 42-inch(!) vertical. Teammate Arron Afflalo will go back to school.

-More NBA draft: Pitt 7-footer Aaron Gray will go back to school; Texas PG Daniel Gibson will stay in the draft (enjoy that second round, dude).

-Sixers chairman Ed Snider denies the newspaper report that he has ordered the trade of Allen Iverson. Why back away from it? The Sixers should trade AI.

Pitt is going to be strong next season w/ Gray coming back.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 06:54 AM
The Mavs whining reminds me of the Broncos after the game in KC.

El Guapo
06-20-2006, 07:27 AM
I dont think its whining. According to that article the Heat did well by 1) shaq not doing a post game interview [fined for $10k], and 2) Riley stating that they just need to play better.

So, the heat either refused to talk or took the political stance by saying the "right thing." I understand that some of it on the mavs side might be considered whining, but at the same time I applaud them for standing up for whats going on. a lot of people hate cuban. I attribute that to the fact that people are fans of other teams. Cuban has done a TON to revitalize the game and if he was your owner, you know you'd love him too. Theres NO other owner like him, and being part of the new generation (sorry baby boomers) I think its great.

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-20-2006, 07:41 AM
I havent heard a lot of talk from the Mavs players giving the Heat credit.

All I hear is crying, crying and more crying.

Oh, come on. They give plenty of credit to Miami. And as much as we hear Avery gripe after the games, he makes sure to turn it around to give Miami credit. Dirk and Terry do the same thing. Miami shouldn't need credit from the other team anyway. The 3-2 series lead should speak for itself.

Nuggets4
06-20-2006, 08:14 AM
I'm predicting a blowout tonight. I have no idea who will win, but if the Mavs come out pissed off and pumped up, they'll roll over Miami. If they come out pissed off and sulking, it's over.

ro_50
06-20-2006, 08:19 AM
Oh, come on. They give plenty of credit to Miami. And as much as we hear Avery gripe after the games, he makes sure to turn it around to give Miami credit. Dirk and Terry do the same thing. Miami shouldn't need credit from the other team anyway. The 3-2 series lead should speak for itself.


AJ has and Dirk has but their whining overshadows the compliments (few) they hand out.

Maybe Cuban's fuse overshadows everything else.

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 10:30 AM
a lot of people hate cuban. I attribute that to the fact that people are fans of other teams. Cuban has done a TON to revitalize the game and if he was your owner, you know you'd love him too. Theres NO other owner like him, and being part of the new generation (sorry baby boomers) I think its great.
Maybe he's revitalized the game in Dallas, because Texans are front running pukes by nature. I would disassociate myself from any team he purchased, and Dallas fans would, too, if they had any class.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 10:37 AM
The Mavs whining reminds me of the Broncos after the game in KC.

I don't remember anyone from the Broncos making claims about the fix being in and the league being rigged. That type of loser talk is perfect for a team that you're a frontrunning "fan" of.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 10:38 AM
I'm predicting a blowout tonight. I have no idea who will win, but if the Mavs come out pissed off and pumped up, they'll roll over Miami. If they come out pissed off and sulking, it's over.

Just remember, if the Mavs don't win it's because the game is rigged because the league wants to sell a lot of Dwayne Wade jerseys. You know, because they're having such a hard time selling those things as it is.:laugh:

El Guapo
06-20-2006, 11:00 AM
Maybe he's revitalized the game in Dallas, because Texans are front running pukes by nature. I would disassociate myself from any team he purchased, and Dallas fans would, too, if they had any class.

i smell jealousy.

Northman
06-20-2006, 01:25 PM
I dont think its whining. According to that article the Heat did well by 1) shaq not doing a post game interview [fined for $10k], and 2) Riley stating that they just need to play better.

So, the heat either refused to talk or took the political stance by saying the "right thing." I understand that some of it on the mavs side might be considered whining, but at the same time I applaud them for standing up for whats going on. a lot of people hate cuban. I attribute that to the fact that people are fans of other teams. Cuban has done a TON to revitalize the game and if he was your owner, you know you'd love him too. Theres NO other owner like him, and being part of the new generation (sorry baby boomers) I think its great.


Oh look, another delusional fan who thinks the Mavs are getting the short end of the stick. ::)

epicSocialism4tw
06-20-2006, 01:38 PM
From the Sports Guy's page 2 column...


Today at 11:36 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Bill Simmons
Page 2



Forget about who's winning the championship. I'm starting to feel like the future of the NBA is at stake.

We just spent the past two months raving about the "New And Improved" NBA -- end-to-end action, loads of points, dramatic endings, a new generation of superstars coming into their own, coaches and owners willing to think outside the box. And Dallas personified everything that was happening. The Mavericks could play small, they could play big, they could play fast, they could play slow ... talking about them almost made me feel like Rollergirl describing Dirk Diggler. Their offense revolved around a 7-foot German who created a new form of post-up offense, setting up shop at the foul line and destroying defenders in a variety of ways. They had an answer for everything. That was the best thing about the Mavs -- their unpredictability. You never knew what to expect with them.

Unfortunately, they still had to get through Miami -- an old-school, MJ Era-type team with one superstar (Wade), another All-Star (Shaq), some overpaid pieces that didn't quite fit and a famous coach. Everything about them is predictable -- one guy creates every shot in crunch time, everyone else stands around and watches him, and every once in awhile those guys get to shoot an open jumper or finish a nice dish. This recipe would be boring if it weren't for Wade, a dynamic talent and the most consistent crunch-time scorer since Jordan. But that's the problem: In between Jordan and Wade, we had to watch all the wannabes pretending to be as good as them. And they weren't. Not even close.


Jesse D. Garrabant/Getty Images
If Miami wins the title, the new NBA slogan may be: "Free throws! They're FAN-tastic!"

Here's what happens if Miami wins the title: New Jersey will say to themselves, "Hey, maybe this could happen to us with Vince Carter"; Washington will say the same about Arenas; Boston with Pierce; G-State with Richardson; the Lakers with Kobe; New Team X with Iverson. And so on and so on. But that's just the thing ... we went through this last decade. There was only one MJ; the formula couldn't be replicated. Same with Dwyane Wade; only LeBron can match him. And everyone else will fail trying, which means we can look forward to another decade of perimeter scorers going 11 for 32 in big games, teammates standing around while stars dribble at the top of the key waiting to challenge two defenders at once, and refs deciding every big game (like in Game 5) by how they interpret contact when the same guy is recklessly driving to the basket over and over again. Does any of this sound fun to you? I didn't think so.

As much as I enjoy watching Wade, a Heat title would erase all the progress of this spring. The Heat don't play well together offensively, they don't bring the best out of one another ... they uneasily co-exist for the sake of a larger purpose (an elusive championship). Just watch some of their guys during the average game. Does Shaq ever seem happy? Walker? Payton? Posey? It's a 1990s team playing in a different decade, only Wade is so freaking good, they're getting away with it and, hell, they might even win a championship.

As a basketball fan, I think this would be terrible. A tragedy, even. Nothing against Wade -- after all, it isn't his fault his team sucks and he has to play this way -- but seeing an individual triumph over a team YET AGAIN would erase every positive outcome from the 2005-06 season. Basically, the team with LeBron or Wade will win the next 10-12 titles, and it will come down to which guy made more 20-footers with two guys on him and which guy got the most cheap calls from the most spineless referees. That's not basketball, it's a star system. When my wife was asking why I was so ticked off after Game 5, it wasn't because I had money on the game (I didn't), or because I liked one team more than the other (I don't). If Miami wins, we may as well go back to box haircuts again, because it's going to be 1991 all over again -- the "New and Improved" NBA will have been defeated, and the Old-School NBA will reign supreme.

If you enjoyed the Spurs-Mavs and Suns-Mavs series this year, just root for Dallas these last two games. Trust me. It's for the best.

ome other scattered thoughts as we head into Game 6 of the WWE, er, the NBA Finals ...


(continued below)

epicSocialism4tw
06-20-2006, 01:39 PM
• Say what you want about Pat Riley pulling an O.J. on Stan Van Gundy (and I have), but you can see why he did it. They never played defense under Van Gundy like they did during these past three games; the overall urgency was never there. Riley also learned a couple of tricks during his Knicks days about evening the odds with an out-manned team -- subtle ways to disrupt the flow of a game, whether it's timely timeouts, constant defensive changes, offense/defense subs, the "no easy layups" rule or whatever. He "uglies" the game up (for lack of a better word). That's why you rarely see the '94-95 Knicks or any of those Mourning/Hardaway Miami teams on ESPN Classic. The games just weren't that fun to watch.
More importantly, Van Gundy never would have had the scrotal fortitude to make offensive/defensive subs with Shaq in the final few minutes of any close game, and Shaq never would have allowed it to happen. At this point of his career, Shaq is like Pedro Martinez with the Mets -- you can get 100 pitches out of him, his stats look great, he's invaluable from a chemistry/confidence standpoint and he's rarely around for the last few outs. Riley realized it last year, Van Gundy never did, and that's the single biggest reason why they're better off with Riley.

Nathanial S. Butler/Getty Images
"Stan? No, I don't know where Stan is these days."
(On a scale of 1 to 10, how bitter is Van Gundy right now? A 38? Remember, they probably would have won LAST year if Wade didn't get hurt in the Detroit series. If you were Van Gundy, wouldn't you at least start an "I hate Riley" blog under an assumed name? And imagine if Miami wins the whole thing? Will Van Gundy crash the trophy presentation like Jack Ruby? Can't wait to see how this plays out.)

• Put me in the "Avery Johnson has been too wound up" camp. As well as the "Nowitzki looks like he's hit the wall," "Maybe ABC should stop reminding everyone in Milwaukee that they could have had Dirk Nowitzki, it's becoming cruel" and "Maybe Mark Cuban shouldn't have gone on 'Letterman' after Game 3 and made it seem like the series was still in the bag" camps.
Ronald Martinez/Getty Images
Need the home team to win a big game? Bennett Salvatore to the rescue.
• Lost in the hullabaloo about the cheap foul at the end of OT and Josh Howard's phantom timeout ... what about Wade sticking those two free throws to tie/win the game? When was the last NBA Finals game where someone made the tying/winning free throws with under two seconds left? And how many guys in the league would you have completely trusted to make both of those? My list looks like this: Kobe, Nowitzki, Wade, Nash. That's it.
• You might remember my sitting/standing rules from the last mailbag. Well, here's an addendum for everyone in Miami that I thought was self-explanatory but obviously needs to be rehashed: If it's Game 5 of the NBA Finals, there's three minutes or less remaining in a close game and you're attending said game, here are the acceptable excuses for not standing:
Excuse No. 1: You're in a wheelchair.
Excuse No. 2: You're foreign and this is your first NBA game.
Excuse No. 3: Your little kid is sleeping on your lap.
Excuse No. 4: You're so overweight you have trouble getting up and down.
Excuse No. 5: You're an overweight foreign parent in a wheelchair with a little kid sleeping on your lap.

• That reminds me, here's an interesting question from California reader Brian Ackerman: "After watching Shaq miss more free throws, I can't help but ask: Is there another situation in sports where a seventh-grade girl can be more proficient in a key part of the sport than one of the most dominant professional players of all time? I can't make the question any more basic. There are literally hundreds of 12-year-old girls who can shoot free throws better than him. That fact alone must beg the even deeper question: Can NBA basketball really be a sport, given the above-mentioned situation?"
I will say this: The crazy thing about Shaq's free-throw shooting is that, fundamentally, he's always been completely wrong. Shaq shoots his free throws like line drives. Well, that makes no sense. Imagine you're trying to throw a rolled-up piece of paper into a garbage can -- instinctively, would you throw it with a Nowitzki-like arc, or would you whip it in a straight line at the can? You'd throw it with the arc. Everyone would. So why would Shaq continue to whip straight line drives at the rim for 14 consecutive years? Have we ever definitively answered this question?
• Back to Stackhouse's "hard" foul: I watched all of Game 4, as well as SportsCenter after the game, and not a single announcer wondered whether Stack was retaliating for Shaq's three-stitch elbow in Game 1. For God's sake, do you know anything about Jerry Stackhouse? He's one of the toughest dudes in the league -- if you made a list of "Players whose sister you wouldn't want to accidentally sleep with," he'd be right up there. When that Shaq elbow happened and Stackhouse was nodding angrily afterward -- like, "OK, so that's how we're playing, gotcha" -- I specifically remember thinking to myself, "I can't wait for the moment when Stack tries to get him back."
So when he cracked him in Game 4, that was my first reaction: "There it was! I knew it!" But it was a totally legal foul, and only the replay betrayed him -- in slow-motion from one angle, you could see Stack sizing Shaq up for a brief second, much like the Posey-Hinrich incident in Round 1, and that's what ended up getting him suspended. And here's where the NBA has lost its grip a little bit. Shaq was running loose toward the basket for a free dunk and probably outweighs Stackhouse by 125 pounds. If Stackhouse did anything BUT foul Shaq as hard as he could, he would have bounced off Shaq like a 5-foot-10 cornerback bouncing off Antonio Gates, Shaq would have made the layup for a potential three-point play, and Hubie Brown would have told us, "See, now, when you are fouling in that situation ... you cannot ... give up ... the three-point play." Basically, Stackhouse was screwed either way.
So here's my question: At what point are we compromising the competitiveness of these games? If you've ever played basketball, then you know that s---, um, staff happens during a competitive game. It's not abnormal for two teammates to start screaming at one another. It's not abnormal for someone to foul someone else a little bit harder than he intended. It's not abnormal for two opponents to start exchanging some good-natured barbs -- if anything, that kind of dialogue always livens up the game and gets everyone else going.
Believe me, I understand why we reached this point -- in the late-'90s, an entire generation of players weaned on hard fouls (like the McHale-Rambis clothesline), trash-talking superstars (like Bird and MJ) and constant woofing (from the Fab Five and UNLV in particular) ended up taking all three of those elements to inappropriate levels. I concede this point. But haven't we swung too much the other way now? For instance, when LeBron psyched out Gilbert Arenas at the free-throw line in the final game of the Cavs-Wiz series, that was one of my favorite moments of the playoffs -- not only that LeBron had the confidence to do something like that, but that it reminded me of something that would happen on the playground, just two ballers talking smack before a big moment.
Of course, the NBA decided that this was deplorable and ordered their referees to prevent this from ever happening again. (God forbid the last two minutes of an NBA game was anything other than formulaic and predictable.) But I think this is one of the reasons why I enjoy watching those games from the '80s so much -- not just because of the style of play (constantly moving, constantly going) but the competitive energy that never seemed to wane. Now guys are allowed to compete, but only to a point. It's like a glorified youth soccer game with more fans. And out of everything that's happened in the Stern Era, this was their biggest mistake. Well, other than continuing to have Bennett Salvatore work playoff games.

Officially Speaking
Note: I'm not saying I agree with these perspectives ... but here's a very fair sampling of the e-mails that drifted into my mailbox on Sunday night and Monday morning.

I do solemnly swear, this 19th day of June, 2006 that I will never watch an NBA game again. Everyone is supposed to say what a great game that was with a straight face? At least the WWE has the grace to give you a wink. If watching a man in a flak jacket and thigh pads repeatedly throw himself into defenders to draw foul calls is what passes for "competition," or better yet watching said man hit layups because no one can breathe on him, I believe I can live without [it]. Why would anyone follow a "sport" that employs Dick Bavetta and Stu Jackson? All that was missing was David Stern running onto the court with a steel chair, ABC execs in tow. Bill Simmons, I name thee prophet. It went down exactly as you said it would.
-- James, Richmond, Virginia

Twenty-five free throw attempts is nonsense, not even M.J. would have gotten some of those foul calls. And I'm not just saying this because I'm a bitter Pistons fan. Sixty-year-old officials should not be officiating 20-something-year-old professional athletes.
-- Paul, Detroit, Mich.

Have you ever, I mean EVER, seen a guy get more calls than Wade in Game 5? As staggering as it is to even think it, much less say it out loud, this surpasses the level of calls Jordan used to get in the playoffs. Simply AMAZING. I am a die-hard NBA fan, and I understand and accept the whole "stars get calls" factor, but this is an insane new level. Every time Wade falls down (even if not touched) he gets a call. You called it in your preview, the refs were gonna give some games to Miami, and they did.
-- Jonathan, Raleigh, N.C.

Please admit to everyone that the treatment Dwyane Wade is receiving is absolutely absurd. The final play in Game 5 summed it up: He commits a backcourt violation, pushes off on Terry, then goes wildly to the bucket and gets bailed out on a phantom foul call. Is what the NBA has to do to create its star of the future?
-- Mark, Chicago

I watch very little NBA basketball, however, as the playoffs have been playing out, I have found myself watching more and more games, becoming more interested. Then comes the Finals and I feel like I am watching pro wrestling, except I can fool myself into thinking those matches aren't fixed. At least it makes the NBA the easiest sport to gamble on.
-- Jeremy Louden, Cincinnati

I want to say something about Dwayne Wade, but I fear I may get called for a foul.
-- Warren, Ludington, Mich.

Unfortunately you were right that the NBA finals could come down to the officials. David Stern would rather choke to death on his own vomit than hand Mark Cuban the trophy. It's clear he instructed the refs to take an active interest in the outcomes of the games. Every time Wade drives the lane the refs call a foul on whoever is closest.
-- Jeff, Baltimore

After witnessing the Game 5 debacle, I am absolutely convinced that Stern is trying to fix the Finals for DWade and the Heat. Stackhouse's suspension, Dirk's phantom foul in OT, and then Joey Crawford's inexplicable call for a Mavs timeout -- it all adds up too perfectly. This could be a conspiracy as far-reaching as Watergate. I can already imagine the inevitable ESPN movie, "All The Commissioner's Men," where a stubborn, upstart young sports columnist brings down Stern and the entire NBA hierarchy. So, Simmons, the only question is: Will you be our Bob Woodward?
-- Robert P., Topeka, Kan.

All the comparisons between Wade and Jordan need to stop right now. There's no way Jordan would have gotten that call in the final seconds of Game 5.
-- Chris Richardson, Charleston, W.V.

• Speaking of the refs, Game 5 of the Finals took its rightful place alongside Game 7 of the Seattle-Phoenix series in 1993, Game 6 of the Kings-Lakers series in 2002, Game 5 of the Knicks-Celtics series in 1973 and some of the other famous entries in the Pantheon of One-Sided Officiated Games. We're running some e-mails in a sidebar (look to the right), but you know it's bad when the owner of the losing team runs out onto the floor to stare down the commissioner after the game -- the last time that happened at a sporting event, Vince McMahon was involved.
(FYI: In today's Miami Herald, Greg Cote writes that Cuban was screaming profanely at referee Joe DeRosa right after the game, "then turned to Stern and other NBA officials who were seated at the scorer's table and was overheard to shout venomously in the jubilant din, '[Bleep] you! [Bleep] you! Your league is rigged!'" Remember when I wrote that, on a scale of 1-to-10 about being excited for the moment when Stern handed Cuban the trophy, I was a 35? Now I'm a 72. Although Cuban did deny saying this on his blog.)
I tackled this in a Cowbell blog last year, but it's worth rehashing again: The NBA doesn't fix games. That's impossible. And stupid. It could never happen. (Well, except for the Hubert Davis game -- that was fixed. Just kidding. Kind of.) A few months ago, I looked David Stern in the eye and asked him about the ongoing officiating problems, and he seemed agonized enough about it that I actually believed him. Unless he was pulling a DeNiro-level acting performance on me. Which I doubt. But there are three major problems here.
First, Dwyane Wade shot as many free throws (25) as the entire Dallas team in Game 5. I just don't see how there's any way this can happen in a fairly-called game. It's theoretically impossible.
Second, everyone knew the officiating would be a problem heading into this series because of Cuban's past problems with the league. In my Finals preview, I wrote that "No team depends on the refs quite like the Heat. When the refs are calling all the bumps on Shaq and protecting Wade on every drive, they're unstoppable. When they're calling everything fairly, they're eminently beatable. If they're not getting any calls, they're just about hopeless. I could see the refs swinging two games in Miami's favor during this series, possibly three. In fact, I'm already depressed about it and the series hasn't even started yet." Well, we had our two games -- Game 3 (the last five minutes were just obscene) and Game 5 (again, a top-five debacle). And the series isn't over yet.
Third, here's a theory on referees that I described in a blog last spring:
"I don't think the NBA fixes games, but they have one trick that they use for situations like this -- when they want a home team to win the game, they invariably assign the worst referees possible to that game for two reasons: Bad referees have a tendency to get swayed by the home crowd, and bad referees never have the stones to make a tough call on the road. In a related story, I went to 35 Clippers games this year and kept a list of the referees in my pocket which I also used to follow the referees for any televised games. And yes, the referees in the NBA -- as a whole -- have never been worse. But there were six referees that stuck out as being especially terrible."
Then I went on to list the worst six referees. Here was No. 2 on the list:
"2. Bennett Salvatore -- Always one of the worst, he took it to another level this season. If you see him on the court at the start of the game, get ready for about six technicals, two near-brawls and both coaches having to be restrained by their assistants at various times."
Why is this relevant? Not only did Salvatore officiate Game 4 of the Suns-Lakers series (the one where Kobe tied it at the end of regulation and won it at the end of OT on two shaky non-calls on Nash, both by Salvatore), not only did Salvatore officiate Sunday night's Game 5 (in which Miami had a 40-12 free-throw advantage at one point), but Salvatore called the foul on Wade's final drive in overtime (remember, the call where ABC couldn't find a replay to show that anyone touched him?) even though he was standing at midcourt a full 35-40 feet from the play, and even though two other refs were closer to the play. Not only was that NOT his call, he butchered it.
Considering I brought this up LAST spring, do you find any of this a little strange? Why aren't the best referees calling these games? Why do the worst ones always seem to get assigned to games in which it would be better for the league if the home team won? Why am I the only one who notices this stuff or seems to care? Why do I find myself watching these games and concentrating more on the one-sided officiating than some of Wade's spectacular plays? As my buddy House e-mailed on Monday morning: "I don't think I can take much more of NBA refs insisting on controlling the outcomes of the most significant games. The NBA is a disgrace and should be completely embarrassed. I hate this game."
And that's coming from one of the last 20 NBA diehards -- I can only imagine what the casual fans thought after watching such a one-sided travesty. Look, we all love Dwyane Wade. He's fantastic. But there's absolutely no scenario in which a 2-guard should be attempting as many free throws as everyone on the other team. It's absolutely unfathomable. And here's what really kills me: If there's a Game 7, you KNOW they'll come up with the best possible officials for that particular game. So why wouldn't every Finals game work like that? We have seven possible games spread over 17 days ... they couldn't pick the best three or four refs and have them work every game, like how MLB picks the best seven umps to comprise the World Series crew? Why wouldn't that work? Is there a single reason you can come up with? Arrrrrrrrgh.
Bill Simmons is a columnist for Page 2 and ESPN The Magazine. His new book "Now I Can Die In Peace is available on Amazon.com and in bookstores everywhere.

El Guapo
06-20-2006, 01:41 PM
Oh look, another delusional fan who thinks the Mavs are getting the short end of the stick. ::)

oh look, another jealous fan of another team thats NOT in the finals. :wave:

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 01:41 PM
i smell.

:thumbsup:

El Guapo
06-20-2006, 01:45 PM
oh look, another jealous fan of another team thats NOT in the finals. :wave:
:approve:

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 01:49 PM
oh look, another amused fan of another team thats NOT choking in the finals. :wave:

:thumbsup:

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 01:51 PM
Cuban says games aren't rigged (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2492729)

So llama, who's full of ****? You or Cuban? :laugh:

epicSocialism4tw
06-20-2006, 01:55 PM
Cuban says games aren't rigged (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2492729)
So llama, who's full of ****? You or Cuban?

...or Bill Simmons.

It wasnt Cuban's "the games arent rigged" statement that cost him $250,000 today. Read between the lines.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 02:03 PM
...or Bill Simmons.

It wasnt Cuban's "the games arent rigged" statement that cost him $250,000 today. Read between the lines.

No, it was his juvenile antics that cost him $250,000.......yet again.

Par for the course with Cuban.

BroncoInferno
06-20-2006, 02:06 PM
No, it was his juvenile antics that cost him $250,000.......yet again.

Par for the course with Cuban.

Am I the only one who's noticed Cuban's uncanny resemblence to Paul Bearer when he pouts?

El Guapo
06-20-2006, 02:41 PM
:thumbsup:

at home tonight, dallas dominates. bottom line.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 02:44 PM
at home tonight, dallas dominates. bottom line.

Didn't you hear? It's rigged. The fix is in.

ro_50
06-20-2006, 02:58 PM
There is no fix or the game are rigged. The Mavs lost three games, two of them that they would have won if they would have some timely FT's or converted some chances or found a way to get the ball out of Wade's hands.

Stop complaining and focus on game 6.

Weren't these the same Mavs fan that told some Spurs fans to stop whining and just concentrate on the games just a month ago.

Northman
06-20-2006, 03:11 PM
There is no fix or the game are rigged. The Mavs lost three games, two of them that they would have won if they would have some timely FT's or converted some chances or found a way to get the ball out of Wade's hands.

Stop complaining and focus on game 6.

Weren't these the same Mavs fan that told some Spurs fans to stop whining and just concentrate on the games just a month ago.

But dude, this is the fans of the MIGHTY DALLAS MAVERICKS. You know? The ones who were going to sweep the Heat. The ones who have the best player in the NBA right now. The ones who have the best owner in the league who behaves like a 3 year old. Initially, i was rooting for the Heat just cause i like Wade but ever since all this bitching and moaning i hope the Mavericks win. Then i can come back on here and claim that the NBA is fixed and hear how Llama spins that one. ;D

Sassy
06-20-2006, 03:25 PM
Go Heat...just because I like watching Wade and I want to see Cuban have another temper tantrum on his home court!

Northman
06-20-2006, 03:50 PM
If watching a man in a flak jacket and thigh pads repeatedly throw himself into defenders to draw foul calls is what passes for "competition,"

Your right James, why call fouls at all when you can get a player to punch you in the nuts while running down court? Ha!

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 06:02 PM
http://nelsok.com/images/72102485.gif

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 06:48 PM
Are you still whining? Good lord you're a ****ing cooze.

Northman
06-20-2006, 07:02 PM
http://nelsok.com/images/72102485.gif


Actually, its pretty obvious. first howard grabs his arm, then when he goes to fly past Dirk Howard sticks his knee out to try and block Wade's drive. That is what we would like to call a BODY FOUL.

ludo21
06-20-2006, 07:13 PM
I would love to see a Maverick meltdown in the 4th on their home court.

But I want a game 7 more.

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 07:13 PM
Actually, its pretty obvious. first howard grabs his arm, then when he goes to fly past Dirk Howard sticks his knee out to try and block Wade's drive. That is what we would like to call a BODY FOUL.
Definitely got him with the knee. Blatant and easy to call.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 07:28 PM
The whistle blew before the knee.

Anyway, the first half is classic Dan Crawford, the Dallas Maverick Killer. Dallas is 1-11 in playoff games refereed by this jackass. It is a crime.

Mavs get up by 14...whistles start. Heat cut into deficit.

Mavs get back up by 10...whistles start again. Heat take lead at halftime.

At least Dirk is playing like an MVP. Now if only someone would shoot Jerry Stackhouse.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 07:29 PM
15 free throw attempts by the Heat.

2 by Dallas.

Wow.

watermock
06-20-2006, 07:30 PM
Ha! Bob couldn't pick a winner in a whore house.

Sassy
06-20-2006, 07:31 PM
Down by 14...now ahead by 1...LOL! Too funny!

Hey Mav fans...Pat Riley only packed one shirt and one suit.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 07:34 PM
Hey Mav fans...Pat Riley only packed one shirt and one suit.

No doubt. He was informed the Heat would be handed the victory tonight.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 07:37 PM
No doubt. He was informed the Heat would be handed the victory tonight.

And it's happening. Sucks to be you. :laugh:

Sassy
06-20-2006, 07:55 PM
A little bit of domination for the Heat right now...

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 08:07 PM
The whistle blew before the knee.

Anyway, the first half is classic Dan Crawford, the Dallas Maverick Killer. Dallas is 1-11 in playoff games refereed by this jackass. It is a crime.

Mavs get up by 14...whistles start. Heat cut into deficit.

Mavs get back up by 10...whistles start again. Heat take lead at halftime.

At least Dirk is playing like an MVP. Now if only someone would shoot Jerry Stackhouse.

Boohoo.

Listen, you wet behind the ears little bastard. The Lakers went head up with Moses Malone during the height of his reign of terror. Darrell Garretson, not yet Head of NBA Officials, but a very powerful man and an avowed Laker hater, blew his whistle 17 times in an NBA Finals game. 16 of those calls went against Los Angeles. His partner made half his calls against Philly and half against the Lakers.

Teams have felt like they're being screwed since before you were born. The real fact of the matter is Moses was a man on a mission that year and an absolute animal on the glass. Kareem couldn't handle him and a young Kurt Rambis and a hack like Mark Landsberger simply weren't going to get many calls against the defending back to back League MVP.

Darrel Garretson was a power hungry egomaniac, though. I laughed when Nick Van Jerk tossed his punk kid onto the scorer's table.

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 08:12 PM
ZO!

The Big E
06-20-2006, 08:13 PM
The Mavs have to quit being a bunch of pussies.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 08:18 PM
Darrel Garretson was a power hungry egomaniac, though. I laughed when Nick Van Jerk tossed his punk kid onto the scorer's table.

I remember that well, I was at that game. I went to see Magic during his comeback tour, but the main show ended up being Nick The Quit shoving a ref onto the scorers table. :laugh:

Sassy
06-20-2006, 08:52 PM
2 minute warning...
I hate Stackhouse.
Nice..bank.
Ha! Dirk. You idiot.
Sends Wade to the line with 26.2 to go.
Heat by 2.
Make it 3.
Lost the ball and fouled Wade...
Makes the 1st one with 17.7 to go.
makes the 2nd...
Ha! Can you feel the heat yet Mav fans ;D
Can you say Wade MVP?
Dang...that sucked.
Miss!
yikes...3 point game.
(I'm bored...where is everyone?)
Come on Wade!!!
Miss.
Crap.
Miss...travel crap.

watermock
06-20-2006, 09:01 PM
Outstanding!

SoCalBronco
06-20-2006, 09:01 PM
Wade is just ice.

Sassy
06-20-2006, 09:05 PM
Cuban...How does it feel to get fined $250,OOO and lose an NBA Championship all in the same day? ;D

My prediction was Miami in four...does the "middle four" count ;D

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:05 PM
**** Yooooooouuuuuuu, Cuban!

:~ohyah!: !Booya! :rofl: !Booya! :yayaya:

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:06 PM
Congrats to the Heat on their first NBA Championship.

Hey Cuban, David Stern says he'll meet you at Dairy Queen, his treat. :laugh:

WaffleBoy
06-20-2006, 09:07 PM
Kobe passes out on the couch! Ha!

The Boy Wonder :super:

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:07 PM
Congrats to the Heat on their first NBA Championship.


Yeah, and...

**** Yooooooouuuuuuu, Cuban!

:~ohyah!: !Booya! :rofl: !Booya! :yayaya:

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:07 PM
Kobe passes out on the couch! Ha!

As Jerry Buss throws his Nowitzki jersey out the window. Ha!

watermock
06-20-2006, 09:08 PM
I honestly can't believe that no call.

Cuban's brain is going to implode.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 09:08 PM
What a load of motherf*cking bull****. That call on Dirk was complete garbage. If anyone should have been whistled it was D-Wade.

Mavericks now 1-12 when Dan Crawford refs.

**** THE NBA AND THEIR RIGGED BULL**** LEAGUE.

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:08 PM
Kobe passes out on the couch! Ha!

The Boy Wonder :super:
And Ben pops his 17th Vicodin.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:08 PM
Yeah, and...

**** Yooooooouuuuuuu, Cuban!

:~ohyah!: !Booya! :rofl: !Booya! :yayaya:

Yes, that too. :rofl:

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:09 PM
Did Dirk score in the 4th period?

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:09 PM
What a load of mother****ing bull****. That call on Dirk was complete garbage. If anyone should have been whistled it was D-Wade.

Mavericks now 1-12 when Dan Crawford refs.

**** THE NBA AND THEIR RIGGED BULL**** LEAGUE.

http://www.editingarchive.com/imgs/239.jpg

Ha ha!!

WaffleBoy
06-20-2006, 09:09 PM
As Jerry Buss throws his Nowitzki jersey out the window. Ha!

So true! LOL Lakers fans all around the country are sick! I love it Ha!

The Boy Wonder :super:

ro_50
06-20-2006, 09:10 PM
Talk about the how classy the Mavs players are, They just leave the court and dont even congratulate the NBA Champs.

They are the ones who blew a 2-0 lead and that double-digit fourth quarter lead in game 3.

They choked. Its not the refs faults or anything.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:11 PM
Shaq guaranteed a championship when he got there, only he didn't guarantee that it'd be on the back of Dwayne Wade.

Congrats to Zo & GP for finally getting their rings. :thumbs:

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 09:11 PM
The only way the Mavericks can win a game in which Dan Crawford refs is if Dirk scores 50.

MAVERICKS 2, HEAT 2, DAN CRAWFORD 2

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4702/dancrawford0kx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:11 PM
Talk about the how classy the Mavs players are, They just leave the court and dont even congratulate the NBA Champs.

They are the ones who blew a 2-0 lead and that double-digit fourth quarter lead in game 3.

They choked. Its not the refs faults or anything.
This will go down as one of the biggest chokes in sports history. Blowing a 2-0 lead to a big underdog? Their owner's histrionics got the team's entire focus off winning and onto making excuses.

Mark Cuban will never win an NBA championship.

WaffleBoy
06-20-2006, 09:12 PM
They choked. Its not the refs faults or anything.

Exactly. You don't see Duncan blaming the refs on the no foul call to decide game 7. That's the difference between a champion from a loser. Ha!

The Boy Wonder :super:

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:13 PM
The only way the Mavericks can win a game in which Dan Crawford refs is if Dirk scores 50.

MAVERICKS 2, HEAT 2, DAN CRAWFORD 2

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4702/dancrawford0kx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.sallad.net/blog/loser.jpg

Ha!

ludo21
06-20-2006, 09:14 PM
WTG HEAT!!!

I dislike Shaq and Riley.

But im stoked For Alonzo and Wade. Very cool to see them get rings, o and the Glove!!

Sassy
06-20-2006, 09:14 PM
Miami was a big underdog? I didn't realize that.

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:15 PM
Wow. Merge this.

watermock
06-20-2006, 09:15 PM
This will be funny to listen to Boob whine about a foul. Point is it could of only gotten them within one.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:15 PM
Miami was a big underdog? I didn't realize that.

You didn't hear? It was supposed to be a sweep! Miami was so overmatched that it wasn't even supposed to be competitive.

So much for supposed to be. :giggle:

Sassy
06-20-2006, 09:16 PM
WTG HEAT!!!

I dislike Shaq and Riley.

But im stoked For Alonzo and Wade. Very cool to see them get rings, o and the Glove!!
Shaq doesn't bug me as much as he did when he was a Laker, though.
Wade is ALL CLASS!

Shaq just said D wade is the best player in the world...classy!

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:16 PM
This will be funny to listen to Boob whine about a fould. Point is it could of only got them within two.

Bob's a Chefs fan, he's used to cheering for a team that gags like Tommy Lee's prom date in big games. Ha!

2KBack
06-20-2006, 09:17 PM
I don't see how people can dislike shaq, he is just too damn entertaining. This was the Wade series though.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 09:17 PM
None of my teams have ever won a league championship.

:(

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:17 PM
Miami was a big underdog? I didn't realize that.
Miami won 52 games. Dallas won 60 games in a tougher conference and they had home court advantage.

Did Dirk score in the 4th period?

WaffleBoy
06-20-2006, 09:17 PM
Shaq is sticking it to the Lakers. He doesn't like Kobe or Phil! Ha!

The Boy Wonder :super:

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:18 PM
Did Dirk score in the 4th period?

Negative.

Sassy
06-20-2006, 09:18 PM
You didn't hear? It was supposed to be a sweep! Miami was so overmatched that it wasn't even supposed to be competitive.

So much for supposed to be. :giggle:
Hmmm...kind of like no one can stop Brett Favre...or Reggie White ;D

Nah...I don't get into much. I do like watching the playoffs sometimes. I was cheering for the Heat because of Wade. I saw him play last season and he was amazing. I think he had about 30 points by half time.

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:18 PM
http://www.sallad.net/blog/loser.jpg

Ha!
Is this Knob?

He's not nearly as ugly as I expected.

Kaylore
06-20-2006, 09:19 PM
Wow. Stackhouse was fouled.
HOLY CRAP! We need a whole thread for one foul!

ludo21
06-20-2006, 09:19 PM
I don't see how people can dislike shaq, he is just too damn entertaining. This was the Wade series though.


Wade was a beast!!!

Shaq just gets on my nerves at times. But he is funny a lot of the time.

WaffleBoy
06-20-2006, 09:19 PM
Did Dirk score in the 4th period?

Dirk almost scored as many as Duncan, but wait Duncan's at home. Hilarious!

The Boy Wonder :super:

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:19 PM
Negative.
You gotta be ****ing ****ting me!

Ha!

Bob's your Information Minister
06-20-2006, 09:20 PM
Negative.

He scored 3 points...it's not his fault, the entire Heat team jumps him. He can't get a decent shot off. His teammates sucked ass tonight (apart from Marquise Daniels).

Maximus
06-20-2006, 09:21 PM
So true! LOL Lakers fans all around the country are sick! I love it Ha!

The Boy Wonder :super:

I'm a Laker fan and I'm tickled pink... I hate the mavericks... they're like the donkeys... the franchise thinks it is better than it really is... My hatred goes back to the Rolando Blackmon, Derrick Harper days when they thought that they could beat the Lakers!

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:21 PM
Well, I hope people made their peace with Angry Llama. We're never going to see him again.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:22 PM
Well, I hope people made their peace with Angry Llama. We're never going to see him again.

That's right, he doesn't like pro sports anymore.

watermock
06-20-2006, 09:23 PM
Whatever pig face. Fact is Stackhouse was hacked on a no call. It was obvious. It was a much brainer foul than what Wade got in game 5. STFU. Want to look at it again? I was rooting for Miami, but that was redicuous. Stackhouse was whacked on the forearm, period. The6y just didn't call it. Again, I was rooting for Miami, but that was ludicrous.

I'm sure Cuban will have another fine forthcoming. It was a non call.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:25 PM
the franchise thinks it is better than it really is...

The irony of that statement coming from a Fade fan. Ha!

Maximus
06-20-2006, 09:25 PM
Bullshiat... Let em play... The mavs sucked the whole game.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 09:27 PM
It was Terry and he ended up with a wide open look for the tie. He bricked it, game over, series over, drive home safely.

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:28 PM
I'm a Laker fan and I'm tickled pink... I hate the mavericks... they're like the donkeys... the franchise thinks it is better than it really is... My hatred goes back to the Rolando Blackmon, Derrick Harper days when they thought that they could beat the Lakers!
Do you remember when Dr Buss wanted to trade James Worthy for Roy Tarpley?

Jerry West typed up his resignation and that put the kibosh on that dynasty killing blunder.

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:30 PM
That's right, he doesn't like pro sports anymore.
Well, who can blame him? He's got Kierkegaard now.

ro_50
06-20-2006, 09:33 PM
Exactly. You don't see Duncan blaming the refs on the no foul call to decide game 7. That's the difference between a champion from a loser. Ha!

The Boy Wonder :super:


That tells you the difference between the Spurs and Mavs.

They congratulated the Mavs when they lost to them in a classic series and what did the Mavs do, walk away and hang their heads like babies.

TD is a legend and a champion, Dirk is not to that level yet w/ his performance in this Finals.

-Slap-
06-20-2006, 09:34 PM
Merge this.

ro_50
06-20-2006, 09:40 PM
It was Terry and he ended up with a wide open look for the tie. He bricked it, game over, series over, drive home safely.


EXACTLY.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
06-20-2006, 09:59 PM
Congrats to the Miami Heat and their fans. :thumbsup:

I couldn't help rooting for The Diesel (not to mention I hate Dallas.)

D Wade is shaping up to be a very special player and a class act to boot.

The Big E
06-20-2006, 09:59 PM
Riley talked about how the finals become more of test of wills than execution. Miami won because they played like men, and Dallas played scared.

Miami's star raised himself into legend territory, and Dallas' star had his nuts shrivel up and become dust in the wind.

Clockwork Orange
06-20-2006, 10:21 PM
And the final entry of Gone Fishin' for the season. ;D

ShutDownPoster
06-20-2006, 10:28 PM
Wade was a beast!!!

Shaq just gets on my nerves at times. But he is funny a lot of the time.

Too bad in his film career, he's unintenionally funny.Ha!

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-20-2006, 10:30 PM
Well, ****.

It's been a fun ride. As some of you might know, I'm in the Mavericks Drumline. This was our 3rd year with the team and it's been a blast. As this thing was winding down tonight I talked to one of the other guys and pointed out that we've been doing this mess for 8 months now. 8 months. Had a great time throughout the season. We performed at the All-Star Game in Houston. Met a bunch of really cool people, some players and celebs as well. It was a great honor to be invited and we put the smack down on the Pistons drumline in front of a packed house.

The playoffs were just a line of heart attacks - one after the other. I, for one, am so proud of my team and make no excuses. It is what it is. I thought, much like the team is right now, that they came up short and didn't have that same drive that Miami did. Wade is frickin' sick. Now, I don't like anyone to be compared to Jordan and don't feel he is - but he's pretty damn solid. If he's made his way to the top of the key, just punch up 2 on the board because he's getting his.

So, all in all, it's been fun and I'm looking forward to this team regrouping ad attacking the next season with some of the lessons they've learned during these playoffs. Because win or lose, they've changed in this past 2 months. Keith Van Horn can die for all I care. Armstrong will likely be gone and I see Daniels being traded.

But now - It's Broncos Time, bitches! Bring on FOOTBALL SEASON!

RhymesayersDU
06-20-2006, 11:03 PM
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/chstuff_1898_59259259

OMG DAVID STERN WANTS TO SELL JERSEYS!!11111 WTF HAX!!!1111

Northman
06-21-2006, 02:16 AM
Miami was a big underdog? I didn't realize that.

Oh yea, just listen to Llama he will tell you. The Mavs beat the Heat by 30 points during the regular season. ;D

Northman
06-21-2006, 02:19 AM
You gotta be ****ing ****ting me!

Ha!


Dude, leave my SUPERSTAR alone dude. Your really going to piss me off now! :rofl:

Rock Chalk
06-21-2006, 06:18 AM
Well, who can blame him? He's got Kierkegaard now.
Yeah, fantastic as Kierkegaard was, sports are still better than philosophy.

Besides, if the ball drops when you let it go one time, its going to do the same thing the next time and every other time.

Stupid German.

Nuggets4
06-21-2006, 07:37 AM
Dallas is certainly the better team. A loss in this series would be a monumental collapse.

After the first two games, I would consider Miami the 4th best team that Dallas has played.

My final NBA rankings:
1. Dallas
2. San Antonio

(non elite, but competitive)
3. Phoenix
4. Detroit
5. LA Clipps

(competitive)
6. Memphis
7. Miami

I think someone needs to update their list.

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2006, 07:44 AM
I think someone needs to update their list.
Yeah, the "non-elite" Suns only made it 6 games deep into the Western Conference Finals by accident, or maybe Stern just wants to sell Marion jerseys in the 'hood?

And the "competitive" Heat, well come on, Dwayne Wade jerseys are the big sellers. Their team isn't very good, but it's that damn NBA conspiracy that gave them the Championship.

Master___Pain
06-21-2006, 08:15 AM
Well, ****.

It's been a fun ride. As some of you might know, I'm in the Mavericks Drumline. This was our 3rd year with the team and it's been a blast. As this thing was winding down tonight I talked to one of the other guys and pointed out that we've been doing this mess for 8 months now. 8 months. Had a great time throughout the season. We performed at the All-Star Game in Houston. Met a bunch of really cool people, some players and celebs as well. It was a great honor to be invited and we put the smack down on the Pistons drumline in front of a packed house.

The playoffs were just a line of heart attacks - one after the other. I, for one, am so proud of my team and make no excuses. It is what it is. I thought, much like the team is right now, that they came up short and didn't have that same drive that Miami did. Wade is frickin' sick. Now, I don't like anyone to be compared to Jordan and don't feel he is - but he's pretty damn solid. If he's made his way to the top of the key, just punch up 2 on the board because he's getting his.

So, all in all, it's been fun and I'm looking forward to this team regrouping ad attacking the next season with some of the lessons they've learned during these playoffs. Because win or lose, they've changed in this past 2 months. Keith Van Horn can die for all I care. Armstrong will likely be gone and I see Daniels being traded.

But now - It's Broncos Time, b****es! Bring on FOOTBALL SEASON!


100% Class right there RVJ. It's unfortunate that because of a couple of head in the sand, conspiracy believing dorks that the mavs are geting blasted on this thread. You are a stand up guy.

freak6
06-21-2006, 08:23 AM
That foul they called on Dirk, when Wade went left with about 30 seconds left, yeah, that was all Wade throwing an forearm at Dirk...bs call yet again.

2 Free throws, Heat up 3 instead of Dirk at the line for 2 free throws to take the lead.

What a terrible call!!!

Still, Mavs choked away the series in Game 3, but got fkd in 5.

-Slap-
06-21-2006, 10:10 AM
Bigger choke, Lefty or Dallas?

I pick Dallas. Mickelson had a one hole brain lock. Dallas took several days to fully assume the fetal position.

Tredici
06-21-2006, 10:14 AM
Bigger choke, Lefty or Dallas?

I pick Dallas. Mickelson had a one hole brain lock. Dallas took several days to fully assume the fetal position.

I dunno. Lefty had 71 holes where the driver wasn't working. Apparently he needed 72 to really figure it out...

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-21-2006, 10:26 AM
Didn't Mickelson hit a drive into the hospitality tent? Even I've never done that.

Master___Pain
06-21-2006, 10:32 AM
Didn't Mickelson hit a drive into the hospitality tent? Even I've never done that.

Keep trying, you can do it!:strong:

bombay
06-21-2006, 10:42 AM
Has anyone ever seen Angry Llama and Dirk the same time? They seem to have disappeared together.

Hmm.....

Bob's your Information Minister
06-21-2006, 11:09 AM
So, all in all, it's been fun and I'm looking forward to this team regrouping ad attacking the next season with some of the lessons they've learned during these playoffs. Because win or lose, they've changed in this past 2 months. Keith Van Horn can die for all I care. Armstrong will likely be gone and I see Daniels being traded.


Keep Daniels and trade that asshole Stackhouse. That guy is worthless.

Master___Pain
06-21-2006, 11:38 AM
Keep Daniels and trade that a-hole Stackhouse. That guy is worthless.

Without Stack, the Mavs get blown out last night, he made some big shots in the 4th and had a huge block on Haslem. The rest of his body of work may not be that great, but he was huge in the 4th last night, kind of like Dirk.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-21-2006, 11:47 AM
Without Stack, the Mavs get blown out last night, he made some big shots in the 4th and had a huge block on Haslem. The rest of his body of work may not be that great, but he was huge in the 4th last night, kind of like Dirk.

It doesn't really matter. He's been consistently bad in the playoffs. He's boneheaded. Once in a while he does something great, but it's not worth it for all the other problems he causes. He's dumb and he has stone hands. He also likes to play franchise player. Get rid of him.

The Big E
06-21-2006, 12:32 PM
It doesn't really matter. He's been consistently bad in the playoffs. He's boneheaded. Once in a while he does something great, but it's not worth it for all the other problems he causes. He's dumb and he has stone hands. He also likes to play franchise player. Get rid of him.
Focusing on Stackhouse as the problem is BS. One team's star stepped up, the other did nothing more than blend in. Their teammates responded accordingly, and actually Stackhouse was on of the few Mavs who didn't play like a scared little biatch.

Northman
06-21-2006, 01:15 PM
Focusing on Stackhouse as the problem is BS. One team's star stepped up, the other did nothing more than blend in. Their teammates responded accordingly, and actually Stackhouse was on of the few Mavs who didn't play like a scared little biatch.


I would have to agree, Stack wanted to play physical with the Heat but the rest of the team played with finesse. That is why they lost this series, they just couldnt man up enough.

Clockwork Orange
06-21-2006, 01:31 PM
I would have to agree, Stack wanted to play physical with the Heat but the rest of the team played with finesse. That is why they lost this series, they just couldnt man up enough.

That plus we Nowitznessed "The Next Larry Bird" shooting under 40% for the series.

-Slap-
06-21-2006, 01:39 PM
Stack's block was a huge play and it should have totally altered momentum, but the rest of the Mavs were playing scared.

Nuggets4
06-21-2006, 02:24 PM
I hate Stackhouse with a passion, but in no way is he to blame for the Mavs losing.

Nuggets4
06-21-2006, 02:35 PM
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/stuff/cf_cuban_owned.jpg

Stolen from Clutchfans.net. I think the funniest part is the fine print.

Clockwork Orange
06-21-2006, 02:49 PM
Just heard on 950 The Fan that Carmelo's agent has said that he'd like to get a contract extension signed next month (the earliest it can be done).

If the Nuggets can pull their heads out of their collective sphincters for a few seconds, they'll get this done immediatly, before Carmelo changes his mind. Another year of the BS that went on last season and he may re-think his "I wanna be a Nugget for life" statement.

Clockwork Orange
06-21-2006, 03:05 PM
Here's the article.

http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_3960682

With NBA free agency set to begin a week from Saturday, the Nuggets are gearing up for talks, even without a replacement for former general manager Kiki Vandeweghe on board. However, their most important contract talks will be with a player not due on the market for another year - small forward Carmelo Anthony.

Calvin Andrews, Anthony's agent, reiterated his desire for a quick negotiation. Anthony appears to be a good candidate for a maximum contract extension, which could be signed in July.

"Our plan is to hopefully have someone to talk to, even if it's (owner) Stan (Kroenke), on July 1, and move to get something done," Andrews said Tuesday. "I know there's no GM in place, but somebody should be. We'll deal with that somebody. There's enough conversation to know that's what everybody wants to do. That's what everybody wants to get hammered out."
-------------

This seems like a slam dunk, though I have this feeling gnawing at me that the Nuggets will find a way to **** things up. Prove me wrong, please, prove me wrong.

Master___Pain
06-21-2006, 03:16 PM
This seems like a slam dunk, though I have this feeling gnawing at me that the Nuggets will find a way to **** things up. Prove me wrong, please, prove me wrong.

Amen brother, Amen.

Clockwork Orange
06-22-2006, 01:22 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/060622&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos2

'Cuban Whistle Crisis'

Mark Cuban reminds me of Ron Artest.

You fall in love with his passion, energy and versatility, but you realize his mental instability very well could wreck your entire organization.

As commissioner David Stern contemplates how to deal with the "Cuban Whistle Crisis," a predicament that could totally undermine the public perception progress the NBA enjoyed this season, the commish would be wise to consult his Artest playbook.

Cuban, the billionaire owner of the Dallas Whinericks, won't be fined into sanity. Bitching about officiating and paying a couple of million dollars a year for that right is nothing more than a simple, tax-deductible business expense for the league's best blogger.

Nope. It's going to take a prolonged, arena-banning suspension to end the "Cuban Whistle Crisis," a nickname coined by Washington Post columnist Mike Wise.

Stern should begin with a symbolic 13-day suspension of Cuban to start the 2006-07 season, then go with a season-long ban if Cuban acts up again.

Cuban's behavior and the conduct of Dallas coach Avery Johnson and superstar Dirk Nowitzki during the just-completed NBA Finals warrant far more drastic action than the $250,000 fine Stern leveled on Cuban before Game 6.

Not only did the "Cuban Whistle Crisis" overshadow the unveiling of Dwyane Wade as the league's most embraceable megastar since Jordan, but its fallout foreshadows a potential Artest-like eruption in the stands. Maybe you missed the American Airlines Center public-address announcer admonishing Mavericks fans not to throw objects on the court. Maybe you turned off your TV before witnessing Mavericks fans drown out with boos Stern's championship trophy presentation to the Heat. Cuban, Johnson, Nowitzki and the co-signing Dallas media turned Game 6 into a Rodney King-verdict powder keg. Mavs fans were convinced they had irrefutable video evidence of officiating crimes of the highest order. The paranoia of Dallas' out-of-control owner caused the normally classy and high-road-driving Johnson to lose his composure and melt into a world-class crybaby. Johnson's crying gave Nowitzki the out he needed to avoid eye contact with a mirror and instead kick chairs and exercise bikes rather than fourth-quarter ass.

You think Cuban's antics haven't planted the seeds of discontent that could blossom into a nutty Mavs fan going after a referee or sparking an in-arena melee?

Artest didn't hop into the stands without warning. When you heard that an NBA player ran into the stands and set off a riot, you were not surprised at all when you learned it was Ron Artest. You never suspected Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Shaq, Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton or Kevin Garnett. The list of candidates was very short, and Artest was always the No. 1 suspect.

If an NBA ref gets attacked on the court or hit with an object, you won't be surprised when the story has a Dallas dateline. Cuban has created the environment. His complaints about officiating have some merit. There's a kernel of truth in every extremist's argument. A planted bloody glove might win an acquittal, but it doesn't clear a conscience. The fact that NBA refs are inconsistent doesn't justify the "Cuban Whistle Crisis." Stern isn't out to get Cuban. Stern is nowhere near that small or stupid. Cuban, the Mavericks and Nowitzki are three of the best things to happen to Stern's league in the past five years.

It would've been far better for the league had Nowitzki -- one of Stern's white, foreign imports -- won the title and shown the kind of heart and determination Wade displayed. Stern didn't want Nowitzki to choke at the free-throw line, dish to Erick Dampier in the clutch and refuse to drive anywhere near Shaq and the lane in the final minutes. Had Nowitzki gone to the hole as relentlessly as Wade, he would've received the same bogus calls as Wade. Refs can't help rewarding superstars for being aggressive. Beyond the "Cuban Whistle Crisis," Stern must crack down on Cuban because he's sabotaging the message about professionalism the league has been preaching to its players. You think Allen Iverson isn't sitting at home taking notes on Cuban thugged-out in his Mavs jersey sitting behind the bench and acting a fool? Cuban is as big an NBA star as all but a handful of players. He represents the league. But he can dress how he wants, drop F-bombs on refs, taunt fans, charge onto the court and question the integrity of the league pretty much without fear of significant reprisal. Meanwhile, Iverson needs to wear a sport coat on the bench and report to work on time on fan appreciation night. If you had to guess, what do you think Allen and his homies have to say about this bit of hypocrisy? Just take a guess. It's time for Stern to censure Cuban and back it with a suspension -- a ban from arenas. A ban during the Finals would've been a mistake. Cuban would've been viewed as a martyr.

Now Stern can call Cuban and Johnson into the commissioner's office and explain in detail why the NBA can't tolerate Dallas' continued whining. It's unhealthy for the league. If not stopped, the "Cuban Whistle Crisis" will escalate and turn into a Crimson Tide.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-22-2006, 01:27 PM
Not only did the "Cuban Whistle Crisis" overshadow the unveiling of Dwyane Wade as the league's most embraceable megastar since Jordan

Give me a ****ing break. What a joke.

Clockwork Orange
06-22-2006, 01:34 PM
Give me a ****ing break. What a joke.

Looks like we found a Whitlock article that you don't quite care for.

This is the part that really stood out to me.

The paranoia of Dallas' out-of-control owner caused the normally classy and high-road-driving Johnson to lose his composure and melt into a world-class crybaby. Johnson's crying gave Nowitzki the out he needed to avoid eye contact with a mirror and instead kick chairs and exercise bikes rather than fourth-quarter ass.

Spot on.

RhymesayersDU
06-22-2006, 01:40 PM
[Stern isn't out to get Cuban. Stern is nowhere near that small or stupid. Cuban, the Mavericks and Nowitzki are three of the best things to happen to Stern's league in the past five years.

It would've been far better for the league had Nowitzki -- one of Stern's white, foreign imports -- won the title and shown the kind of heart and determination Wade displayed. Stern didn't want Nowitzki to choke at the free-throw line, dish to Erick Dampier in the clutch and refuse to drive anywhere near Shaq and the lane in the final minutes. Had Nowitzki gone to the hole as relentlessly as Wade, he would've received the same bogus calls as Wade.

Wait, wasn't somebody on this board just saying the other day that the league would have preferred that the white guy won and been the face of the league? Oh yeah, it was me, a couple pages ago in this thread.

But much like the simple-minded idiots looking for anybody to blame except Nowitzki and his lack of leadership, (and free throw shooting) they decided that it MUST have been David Stern trying to sell a few Wade jerseys in the 'hood that got Miami the title.

To paraphrase an OMane classic: "Maverick fans, I love you retards." *














*Does not apply to Rulon, he's good people.

The Big E
06-22-2006, 02:00 PM
[URL] Stern didn't want Nowitzki to choke at the free-throw line, dish to Erick Dampier in the clutch and refuse to drive anywhere near Shaq and the lane in the final minutes. Had Nowitzki gone to the hole as relentlessly as Wade, he would've received the same bogus calls as Wade. Refs can't help rewarding superstars for being aggressive.
This is what hits home to me. As much as I was annoyed by the calls Wade got, it's not a secret that star players get favorable calls, as we'd seen with Dirk in every series leading up to the finals. Everyone knows this, but only one star player took advantage of it, and surprise surprise, his team won. Dirk would've gotten the calls, too, especially at home, had he taken the ball to the hole.

Sassy
06-22-2006, 04:09 PM
This is what hits home to me. As much as I was annoyed by the calls Wade got, it's not a secret that star players get favorable calls, as we'd seen with Dirk in every series leading up to the finals. Everyone knows this, but only one star player took advantage of it, and surprise surprise, his team won. Dirk would've gotten the calls, too, especially at home, had he taken the ball to the hole.
Jordan usually got the calls, too.

Clockwork Orange
06-22-2006, 04:12 PM
Jordan usually got the calls, too.

Most superstars do if they attack the basket.

-Slap-
06-22-2006, 04:45 PM
Nope. It's going to take a prolonged, arena-banning suspension to end the "Cuban Whistle Crisis," a nickname coined by Washington Post columnist Mike Wise.

Stern should begin with a symbolic 13-day suspension of Cuban to start the 2006-07 season, then go with a season-long ban if Cuban acts up again.
I've been saying this for a couple years now.

clean
06-22-2006, 06:41 PM
"Go Cowboys, I Guess. Whatever"


<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EuHm5k0t4S4"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EuHm5k0t4S4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Clockwork Orange
06-22-2006, 06:46 PM
People who uses the word "reffing" get on my ****ing nerves.

-Slap-
06-22-2006, 06:49 PM
Somebody should photoshop Angry Llama's face onto a milk carton.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-22-2006, 06:53 PM
God that was painful to watch. Stay off the 'net, kid.

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-22-2006, 07:41 PM
The video blog is a terrible concept. But I can't fault him for buying tickets for him and his old man. Sounds like he hasn't figured out the season is over, though.

Nuggets4
06-22-2006, 08:03 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/andee82/antoine3.jpg

RhymesayersDU
06-23-2006, 09:54 AM
OMG CONSPIRACY!!!!!11111

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2496823

Updated: June 22, 2006, 5:21 PM ET
Finals MVP Wade league leader in jersey sales
Associated Press

NEW YORK -- Dwyane Wade is on top of the NBA in another category -- sales of his jersey.

The MVP of the NBA finals had the league's most popular jersey this season, based on sales at the NBA store in New York and on NBAstore.com.

LeBron James ranked second in jersey sales, followed by Kobe Bryant and Allen Iverson.

Jersey sales leaders
1. Dwyane Wade
2. LeBron James
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Allen Iverson
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Stephon Marbury
7. Tracy McGrady
8. Vince Carter
9. Carmelo Anthony
10. Dirk Nowitzki

Wade was in New York on Thursday, where he appeared at the NBA store to tape a segment for NBA TV and take questions from fans. He also appeared as a guest on "Live with Regis and Kelly."

Wade's Miami Heat teammate, Shaquille O'Neal, ranked fifth on the most popular jersey list.

The Heat wrapped up their first championship by beating Dallas on Tuesday, and NBAstore.com had its highest-grossing day on Wednesday. Sales on the site were 41 percent higher than the previous highest day, which followed Detroit's title clincher in June 2004.

Master___Pain
06-26-2006, 01:37 PM
I am suprised Dirk is even 10th with the NBA's, espn's and every major supporter of the NBA trying to downplay Dirk and not give him a good shoe deal.

Northman
06-26-2006, 01:41 PM
Its a sad day when Stephon Starbury beats you out in Jersey Sales.

Clockwork Orange
06-26-2006, 01:43 PM
Its a sad day when Stephon Starbury beats you out in Jersey Sales.

In fairness, he's a New York native playing for the Knicks. His status as a playground legend on Coney Island seems to negate the fact that he's a douchebag in the eyes of New Yorkers.

Northman
06-26-2006, 01:45 PM
No doubt about that.