Stop reacting start trying to think

[SactownOrangeSunday]

Ok all I have read on here is stupid stuff about "lets kick all illegals out, or lets throw them in prison". How dumb are people that actually think this is a good idea.

First, I want to say that limiting immigration is a good idea and that I believe building a fence is ok.

But for gods sake, use your heads. If you make illegal immigration a felony, you the citizen has to pay for their food, housing, and other stuff, while they are incarcerated. They get three meals, tv, and a workout room without doing anything and it is costing you money. At least now they are helping out the economy instead of draining it.

Next thing, If you want to stop having illegals come here, help their nations evolve economically so that they dont want to leave. The Mexican government is so dang corrupt its sickening.

Next point for all you pro immigration people, that want to say this country was built on immigration so we should always have it, wake up. This nation was built on slavery and not allowing women to vote also, do you think we should go back to those institutions!!!!! I am so sick and tired of ignorant people that havent studied either history or politics in any way coming tyring to talk about stuff they are fundamentally wrong about. Once and for all the Constitution is a set of guidelines, not a suicide pact that cannot be changed or amended as the situation arises.

By the way...I am pleading with all politically interested people to help my aunt and uncle get their new political discussion board of the ground. As you know they get paid by advertisers and advertisers look at hits, this is going to be a wicked site by the way, I (history undergrad and Master in Government, working on PHD) am going to be a regular blogger to begin discussions on various topics, being opposed by my unlce and aunt who are Democrats. This forum is going to be amazing, I have helped set it up and some of the leading political theorists in the nation have signed on to guest blog, we are talking to Rush Limbaugh about being a guest blogger dont know if it will happen. Anyways I will let you know what the URL is when we get it all up and running next month, help out fellow Bronco fans with a business, its the right thing to do.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

...we are talking to Rush Limbaugh about being a guest blogger dont know if it will happen.

:laugh:

Will Rehab Rush be providing the hillbilly heroin too?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ok all I have read on here is stupid stuff about "lets kick all illegals out, or lets throw them in prison". How dumb are people that actually think this is a good idea.


What a great opening point (calling your opponents in a debate stupid, dumb, etc...)!!!!

But after reading this fantastic header I just couldn't read any further as I'm sure nothing you had to say afterward could top your intro.

[Spider]

Ok all I have read on here is stupid stuff about "lets kick all illegals out, or lets throw them in prison". How dumb are people that actually think this is a good idea. Yeah how stupid can people be to think throwing a law breaker in Prision is bad ...........

First, I want to say that limiting immigration is a good idea and that I believe building a fence is ok. Yep make our borders look like berlin , but we dont have a choice , legal imagration is good .........

But for gods sake, use your heads. If you make illegal immigration a felony, you the citizen has to pay for their food, housing, and other stuff, while they are incarcerated. They get three meals, tv, and a workout room without doing anything and it is costing you money. At least now they are helping out the economy instead of draining it. Speaking of using your head , you may want to give it a shot , we already pay for all of these things now , yeah we do ,see genius go take a look around small towns in arizonia , check ou how many SSI checks and welfare checks are passed out .......

Next thing, If you want to stop having illegals come here, help their nations evolve economically so that they dont want to leave. The Mexican government is so dang corrupt its sickening. So why dont they march and fight in thier own country to change things ? why should we fix thier problems ?

Next point for all you pro immigration people, that want to say this country was built on immigration so we should always have it, wake up. This nation was built on slavery and not allowing women to vote also, do you think we should go back to those institutions!!!!! I am so sick and tired of ignorant people that havent studied either history or politics in any way coming tyring to talk about stuff they are fundamentally wrong about. Once and for all the Constitution is a set of guidelines, not a suicide pact that cannot be changed or amended as the situation arises. Point ? Slave owners migrated here from other countries , then they IMPORTED meaning brought in from africa , speaking of being wrong about things , you sure are batting a thousand ...........

By the way...I am pleading with all politically interested people to help my aunt and uncle get their new political discussion board of the ground. As you know they get paid by advertisers and advertisers look at hits, this is going to be a wicked site by the way, I (history undergrad and Master in Government, working on PHD) am going to be a regular blogger to begin discussions on various topics, being opposed by my unlce and aunt who are Democrats. This forum is going to be amazing, I have helped set it up and some of the leading political theorists in the nation have signed on to guest blog, we are talking to Rush Limbaugh about being a guest blogger dont know if it will happen. Anyways I will let you know what the URL is when we get it all up and running next month, help out fellow Bronco fans with a business, its the right thing to do.
I might drop by , as for Rush , the only reason to have him as a bloger is just to say ..........Hey look we have abloger that made more sense high then he does sober ............

[defenseman]

1) Secure the borders
2) Enforce the law,..aka..illegals hit the road.
3) Establish "new" policy if req'd
4) Screw Vincente Fox and Mexico, we are already supporting part of their economy the SOB's.
5) ENSURE, the mexican people (and the rest of the world I might add) understand who the malicious culprit is in this situation, and , it's not us, it's the mexican government.
6) Cut off aide to these bozos down south

I could go on and on, however, copious quantities of monies are already being spent (and lost). IF we are to spend(lose) this kind of money, might as well be for something that sews up the borders and boots the "illegals". ..dman

[Crushaholic]

If we ever get to the point of "rounding up" the illegal immigrants, they won't be in the prison system for very long and will be deported ASAP. However, that won't happen because businesses depend on them too much for cheap labor. The solution is a multistep process.

1) Secure the borders
2) Allow the Social Security Administration to cooperate with INS
3) Fine businesses who knowingly employ illegals
4) Reform welfare so that these people aren't eligible when they are unemployed
5) Encourage a change in Mexican government so that Mexicans can make a decent wage in their own country and have no need to be here.

Pretty simple...LOL :crazy:

[Spider]

Yep , let those illegals go back to Mexico and take to the streets in protest .......

[defenseman]

Left out the "hammer-time" on the employers of the illegals. Thanks crush...dman

[Hotrod]

I agree with the orginal poster we should forget about deporting or jailing these POS's instead we should take on a shoot to kill approch. I guarantee they would think twice before coming over the border anymore.

[Hotrod]

In the interest of taking the high road and being politically correct. We as a nation and a people have decided to become a nation of pussys instead of risking that anyone would dislike us.

[Rascal]

No matter what is done at the border or new laws implemented, nothing will matter if there are still jobs available. Unless the gov't, law enforcement, and companies get serious about employing legals only the lure, and subsequently the illegals, will always be there. You want to stop illegal immigration...eliminate the jobs for them. Kick the people off welfare and have them do those jobs.

[defenseman]

I lean in that direction also Rascal. HOWEVER, if the DEMS/and REPUBS have their way, they'll re-write the law allowing for the ones here to stay and actually be legally employed? Screw that, boot them...dman

[Hotrod]

No matter what is done at the border or new laws implemented, nothing will matter if there are still jobs available. Unless the gov't, law enforcement, and companies get serious about employing legals only the lure, and subsequently the illegals, will always be there. You want to stop illegal immigration...eliminate the jobs for them. Kick the people off welfare and have them do those jobs.

Thats sounds more difficult then my plan of shooting them as they cross over. :)

[Rascal]

Thats sounds more difficult then my plan of shooting them as they cross over. :)

LOL

Well teh cost of having a border guarded heavily enough to stop immigration will be a huge drain on our economy (granted Iraq costs more but that doesn't mean that this won't be a big drain on our economy).

[Rascal]

I lean in that direction also Rascal. HOWEVER, if the DEMS/and REPUBS have their way, they'll re-write the law allowing for the ones here to stay and actually be legally employed? Screw that, boot them...dman

If the Dems/Repubs have their way the only lawful citizens would be senators and reps.

[defenseman]

If the Dems/Repubs have their way the only lawful citizens would be senators and reps.

it sure appears that way sometimes now doesn't it...dman

[Spider]

the only way I see to fix things is , study the canidate and the issues , ignore the R and the D , if we had more of the gang of 14 , we wouldnt be in this shít .....and this way would beat the lobbiest , dont pay attention to every TV ad .......your local paper during an election will list the Canidates and where they stand on issues ...........Dont get caught up in wedge issues ............

[Old Dude]

Here's what I think is gonna happen.

The House Bill has already been amended to do away with the felony provision. But the gist of it remains the same. It is an "enforcement-only" bill with no provision for any sort of amnesty, path to citizenship, etc...

It is probably not going to pass in the Senate.

The Senate's version is hopelessly bogged down. And even if they managed to reach some compromise, it wouldn't pass the House.

Deadlock.

Homeland Security will carry out a few more employer raids in the months to come - - and a few thousand more folks will get detained and deported as a result of that. It may have some deterrent value vs. current practices, but mostly it will result in more illegals getting their pay under-the-table. Plus, it will increase tensions in that community, as raid rumors start coming out every day. No one is going to pack up and leave as a result of that, however.

We will see lots of State-level bills introduced all around the country that will attempt to limit any sort of aid to illegal immigrants beyond what is constitutionally or federally required (such as emergency meical treatment and so forth). Almost all of these will pass, though some will go too far and get struck down or invalidated.

This will be a huge issue in the November elections, though moreso in the southwest than the northeast. As a general rule, those wanting more enforcement are going to win. The deadlock will be broken early next year and some version of the House Bill will succeed.

There will be a huge amount of pork-barrel politicking in terms of the so-called wall and other security devices, but appropriations will be made to beef up border security.

The 10-20 million people already here illegally will not be granted any sort of amnesty, but they won't be systematically rounded up, either, except on a small scale, in conjunction with actions against individual businesses.

This will remain a major political issue in 2008, and I see more of the same. But with some increased security and a few highly publicized business crackdowns, the rate of influx should drop somewhat.

But the long and short of it is that for most of those already here, nothing is really going to change. Too many to deport and too many to absorb.

Life goes on.

[Garcia Bronco]

Ok all I have read on here is stupid stuff about "lets kick all illegals out, or lets throw them in prison". How dumb are people that actually think this is a good idea.

First, I want to say that limiting immigration is a good idea and that I believe building a fence is ok.

But for gods sake, use your heads. If you make illegal immigration a felony, you the citizen has to pay for their food, housing, and other stuff, while they are incarcerated. They get three meals, tv, and a workout room without doing anything and it is costing you money. At least now they are helping out the economy instead of draining it.

Next thing, If you want to stop having illegals come here, help their nations evolve economically so that they dont want to leave. The Mexican government is so dang corrupt its sickening.

Next point for all you pro immigration people, that want to say this country was built on immigration so we should always have it, wake up. This nation was built on slavery and not allowing women to vote also, do you think we should go back to those institutions!!!!! I am so sick and tired of ignorant people that havent studied either history or politics in any way coming tyring to talk about stuff they are fundamentally wrong about. Once and for all the Constitution is a set of guidelines, not a suicide pact that cannot be changed or amended as the situation arises.

By the way...I am pleading with all politically interested people to help my aunt and uncle get their new political discussion board of the ground. As you know they get paid by advertisers and advertisers look at hits, this is going to be a wicked site by the way, I (history undergrad and Master in Government, working on PHD) am going to be a regular blogger to begin discussions on various topics, being opposed by my unlce and aunt who are Democrats. This forum is going to be amazing, I have helped set it up and some of the leading political theorists in the nation have signed on to guest blog, we are talking to Rush Limbaugh about being a guest blogger dont know if it will happen. Anyways I will let you know what the URL is when we get it all up and running next month, help out fellow Bronco fans with a business, its the right thing to do.


Or we could just shoot them in the head like we would any other invading army.

[defenseman]

At some point, there will be a "grassroots" movement against the illegals. I can almost gaurantee it. It will carry some steam, and it will have some affect on the politicians. In addition, the "leaders" of the illegal immigrants movement will figure out they need to lay low for a while. They just pissed off alot of no-kidding americans with their diatribe...dman

[Old Dude]

I am sure there will be radicalization of both sides, because neither one is going to get what they want.

[TailgateNut]

At some point, there will be a "grassroots" movement against the illegals. I can almost gaurantee it. It will carry some steam, and it will have some affect on the politicians. In addition, the "leaders" of the illegal immigrants movement will figure out they need to lay low for a while. They just pissed off alot of no-kidding americans with their diatribe...dman

I think the "some point" is right around the corner. I also think, as Old Dude put it, that individual states and localities will begin to respond to pressure from their residents. I stopped in at the local pub monday afternoon for a cold one and many of the "old timers" were quite vocal regarding the blatant disregard for law shown by these Illegal Immigrants. Usually the talk is sports related, but the topic has drastically changed "thanks" to their march!

[alkemical]

you know the pubs and bars were where the planning for local regimes for the american revolution took place -

[Old Dude]

- - and other less happy movements - -

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I think the "some point" is right around the corner. I also think, as Old Dude put it, that individual states and localities will begin to respond to pressure from their residents. I stopped in at the local pub monday afternoon for a cold one and many of the "old timers" were quite vocal regarding the blatant disregard for law shown by these Illegal Immigrants. Usually the talk is sports related, but the topic has drastically changed "thanks" to their march!

I called my democrat state rep here and gave them something to chew on. I told him that it's time to reign in this invasion and either you are with the American people on this or you are against them. Waiting for what I knew was coming (we're only state level and DC basically controls what happens) I told him you have great power in limiting illegal criminal rights and time for you to exercise that power or face voting citizens exercising their rights for someone who will.

Not much was said after that.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I lean in that direction also Rascal. HOWEVER, if the DEMS/and REPUBS have their way, they'll re-write the law allowing for the ones here to stay and actually be legally employed? Screw that, boot them...dman


Yep and the law would be 1000 pages long, impossible to interpet and contain pork for all who contributed to writing it.

[Rohirrim]

I'm going on a long rant. Somebody stop me...

Sure, I’ll think about it. Think about this.

Illegal aliens, according to a NY Times article published yesterday, add less than one tenth of 1% to the GDP of the U.S. They cost far more to the social services, hospitals and education systems. They take more than they give. It only makes sense. A large percentage of illegal aliens work for cash. Those that do pay taxes are paying taxes on very low incomes, minimum wage at best. Their tax rate is miniscule, plus they send the majority of their income back home. Any medical services they require must be done on an emergency basis. I read of one woman, an illegal alien, who needs dialysis once a week. She reports to the emergency room every week for treatment, otherwise no hospital would be required by federal law to treat her, and none could afford to. Her treatment costs tens of thousands of dollars more, to the American taxpayer, than that treatment would normally cost. How much in taxes, on how many illegal aliens, does it take to pay just for her? Another point: Any child born in the U.S., whether their mother is here illegally or not, is a U.S. citizen. That child is immediately eligible for Medicaid, food stamps, etc. And it’s not just federal costs.

All states are mandated by federal law to educate the children of illegal aliens, whether they are citizens or not. The state of Georgia reports that it pays $53 million per year just to teach illegal aliens the English language in its schools. Of course, they can’t offer music and phys ed programs to their American students because that would be too expensive. Imagine what the numbers are for all states combined? Another fact. Let’s say an illegal alien is beating his wife and children and social services decides to remove those children from the home for their own safety. Federal and most state laws prohibit providing foster care and medicaid services for illegal aliens. So, county governments must decide whether to return those children to the homes of the abusive parent, or pay for foster care themselves. They usually choose to pay themselves. And the cops aren’t going to ask the citizenship of anybody, unless they’re arrested and booked on a felony.

Spokespersons for the illegal amnesty concept like to remind us that we are a nation of immigrants. Fine. They should read the numbers. The greatest wave of immigration in U.S. history (other than the illegal waves from Mexico) came to an end in the 1920s and has tapered off since then, except for one or two small blips in the forties. Those immigrants, from Ireland, Italy, Russia, Germany, Latin America, Asia, etc. fed the industrial revolution and the expansion of the U.S. from coast to coast. No such need exists now. Even at the peak of immigration need in the late 1890s, the U.S. could not possibly absorb the numbers coming in now. Back then, it took us 50 years to absorb a million immigrants, legal or otherwise. We have even less capacity to absorb the numbers we are getting now. In fact, the exact opposite is true. It’s cute for people to say, “I’m also the child of immigrants” as if all immigration can be thrown into the same, big pot. Such a statement ignores the historical realities. The truth is, our economy cannot possibly employ the illegal immigrants that are coming into our country through job creation. Legal immigration completely fills our “real” economic needs.

The U.S. economy now is geared toward creating jobs in service industries, computers, etc. The majority of our manufacturing has already been shipped to Mexico and elsewhere. We don’t create many jobs for unskilled workers. The only way that waves of unskilled, uneducated illegal immigrants can work in the U.S. is if they take the jobs, at the lower end of the economic scale, from Americans already doing them. Obviously, the numbers don’t lie.

The U.S. creates on average 2.5 million jobs per year. The majority of those jobs cannot be done by non-English speakers. Bear-Stearns estimates that 3 million illegal aliens cross our borders each year. Add it up. They either take the jobs Americans are doing, or they don’t work. The highest percentage of illegal aliens holding jobs in the U.S. do not do “Jobs Americans Won’t Do.” As a matter of fact, the percentage of illegal aliens working in agriculture is the lowest of all. Next time the amnesty first crowd tells you your “tomatoes won’t get picked” remind them of that. The highest percentage of illegal aliens working in the U.S., work in the construction industry. Also, keep in mind, when the amnesty first crowd says that illegal aliens are buying products in the U.S. and supporting local economies, the truth is, most illegal aliens send the larger percentage of their incomes back to Mexico.

The concept of “Jobs Americans Won’t Do” is a smokescreen used by the amnesty only crowd in order to control the language of the debate. When American politicians, like John McCain or Ted Kennedy, use that phrase, they are insulting the American people who do those jobs every day. Like I said, the numbers don’t lie. The only way it is possible for that many illegal aliens to be working in the U.S., is if they are taking jobs from Americans. All over the U.S., American small business owners especially in the areas of landscaping, flooring, roofing, plumbing and all areas of construction are losing money, or being put out of business by illegal workers, or by those who hire illegals and can underbid contracts. A hotel or motel that tries to keep American employees in its service areas cannot compete with hotels or motels that hire illegal aliens. It’s not a matter of jobs going un-filled; it’s a matter of wages being lowered and profit being increased. Those businesses who hire illegal aliens enjoy greater profits and pass the costs of doing business (healthcare, education, social services, etc.) on to the American taxpayer. You don’t pay Workmen’s Comp or healthcare for an employee you pay under the table, in cash.

And please don't buy the ridiculous argument that paying Americans a decent wage to do these jobs would drive us to ruin. Utter BS. We have been paying Americans to do those jobs for two hundred years. As any economist will tell you, wages and prices will find a balance if no anomalous factors, like low wages to illegal aliens, are skewing the system. And don't forget, wages paid to Americans are spent in America.

One of the major reasons the U.S. government can continue to ignore the crisis at our borders is because those most affected by illegal immigration are those Americans at the bottom of the economic ladder. The small businesses being put out of business by illegal immigration are mostly black and Hispanic owned businesses. Another reason the government can ignore this problem is because they jimmy the unemployment numbers to make them look good. The real numbers are far worse. For example, if a sales manager loses his job and can’t find another and finally runs out of unemployment insurance, he is no longer “unemployed.” If he finds a job working twenty hours a week at Walmart, he is “employed.” Obviously, the numbers are a joke. There are plenty of Americans to do the jobs America produces, unless they are being undercut by low wages to illegal aliens.

A Bear Stearns report to its investors estimated that there are 20 million, not 11 million, illegal aliens in the U.S. They estimate that approx. 3 million cross our border per year, not 700,000. Bear Stearns also estimates that remittances to Mexico from illegal aliens are closer to 13 billion per year, not the 6 or 7 billion that the government reports. I trust the Bear Stearns figures over the figures of the U.S. government, simply because the government has a vested, political interest in keeping those figures as low as they possibly can. Imagine how pissed the American people would be if they knew the real numbers? Bear Stearns is reporting to investors and has a reputation to keep. It can’t afford to give bad investment planning advice.

Another fact that the American people are not aware of: The Mexican government assists illegal aliens from other countries to cross our borders – for a price. Mexico is the largest central clearing house on earth for illegal aliens hoping to enter into the U.S. Boatloads of illegal aliens pay tens of thousands of dollars to “snakeheads” in China and SE Asia. They make the trip to Mexico where they are transferred into the care of “coyotes” who then take them to the border. Those who can fly in from other countries are welcomed in Mexico too, as long as they can pay the bribes and keep moving north. The coyotes, of course, must pay a percentage of their payoff to local government officials along the way to the border. The New Yorker estimated that the illegal alien business (primarily to the U.S.) from all around the world, including Arab states, is a billion dollar industry. And neither the coyotes, nor the Mexican government, are checking the bags of those entering the U.S. from Arab countries who are enemies of the U.S.

Think of the sweet deal that Mexico gets! Rather than provide costly social programs to educate, employ and provide health care for its uneducated, unskilled, and unemployed citizens, it simply sends them over the border. The Mexican government even provides maps and instructions to illegal aliens. There is also a huge black market business in identity theft and false document creation that thrives in Mexico (one need only cross the border and see the shops), and could only thrive if it was paying off the necessary government officials. Not to mention the drug trade also benefits from the thousands who cross the border. They provide cover for the mules. And on top of all that, the millions of illegal aliens in the U.S. send remittances back to Mexico which provides one third of the annual income of Mexico! Sweet!

Illegal immigration from Mexico is an immediate economic, social, and security crisis and must be treated as such. Already, emergency rooms are closing around the U.S. solely for the reason that they can no longer afford to comply with federal law and treat all the illegal aliens that come in for services. Their choice is to close the emergency room or close down the hospital. I read one report where ambulance drivers pick up patients in Juarez, and take them across the border to emergency rooms in the U.S. Schools are buckling across the U.S. from the costs of educating students in excess of their tax base. What they do to stay afloat is cut programs like music, phys ed and various extracurricular clubs. Instead of providing a music teacher, or a latin teacher, or a phys ed teacher, they are mandated by federal law to provide a teacher who can teach English to illegal aliens.

The amnesty first crowd keeps trying to disguise what the real issues are by mis-labeling immigration as a race issue or a civil rights issue. It is not, though I’m sure Karl Rove would applaud their efforts. They hide, or obfuscate, many truths. One truth is this, if the U.S. gives amnesty to the 20 million illegal aliens currently in our country, every one of those people becomes an anchor for their families in Mexico or elsewhere. That 20 million is only a base number. How big is their family still living abroad? Their parents? Their spouses? Their children? That’s how many they will sponsor to come north. Let’s say the average across the board is two per anchor. That means 60 million people – more than 20% of the U.S. population. And we’re not talking “best and brightest” here. We’re talking mostly uneducated, unskilled and poor. There is no way on earth that the U.S. economy can provide for these people. We will go bankrupt.

Another truth is this: Once these 20 million illegal aliens are given the legal right to remain in the U.S., what’s to keep them from agitating for higher wages, better working conditions, health care and open borders? And once those greedy employers no longer want to pay the higher wages of these newly minted citizens, what’s to keep them from hiring new illegal workers and starting the process all over again? And once these 20 million have anchored their families into the U.S. and represent 20% of the legal population, who’s to stop them from voting for candidates who will forward their agenda of open borders and unlimited immigration? Use the mayor of LA as an example. We are not talking about the traditional influx of legal immigrants from all over the world who go through a civic education and enculturation process for over ten years to become citizens. We are talking about a solid, massive block from a single culture group that will go through no enculturation process at all. As a matter of fact, a major sector of the amnesty first crowd is diametrically opposed to the concept of enculturation in any form. They say that assimilation is inherently racist. It was okay for my Irish grandmother, but not for them. After all, in a Zogby poll conducted in Mexico in 2002, two thirds of Mexicans believe that the SW U.S. rightfully belongs to them, and that they should be free to cross the border as they see fit. The overwhelming majority of those polled also believed that Americans were inherently racist and lazy.

What the truly stated argument for those who believe in amnesty is this: The U.S. does not have the right to control its own borders or its immigration policies for the good of its own people and their quality of life. To do so is racist and xenophobic. U.S. immigration policies must be written in a way that serves the needs of the Mexican people and redresses the failures of a corrupt Mexican government that refuses to do anything whatsoever to better the lives of its own citizens.

They ignore the fact that Mexico’s immigration laws are ten times more stringent, and draconian, than ours. I guess they think that only Americans can be arrogant hypocrites?

Share this with your parents. BTW, you can tell them I've been a Democratic voter for many, many years. I still believe that the Democratic party should stand up for the working people of America. The Democratic Party obviously believes otherwise. It is the poorest, the least educated, and the hardest working Americans who are being hurt the most by illegal immigration. Who will speak for them? The GOP? Or the New Democrats (otherwise known as GOP Lite)? I'll bet JFK or FDR would have had these borders secured by now.

And finally, remember this:
IF YOU CAN'T PAY AN AMERICAN A DECENT WAGE TO DO A JOB, THAT JOB SHOULDN'T BE DONE - AT LEAST NOT IN AMERICA.

IF YOU CAN'T PAY AN AMERICAN A DECENT WAGE TO WATCH YOUR CHILDREN, MOW YOUR LAWN, OR WASH YOUR LAUNDRY, THEN DO IT YOURSELF!

[TailgateNut]

Nice post!:thumbsup:

[Old Dude]

A new Zogby Poll contradicts earlier surveys and suggests that "likely voters" now favor the House Bill.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NG8CIKISF1.DTL

Likely American voters, by a wide margin, prefer a plan to get tough on illegal immigrants over one that would put them on a path to citizenship, according to a new poll released Wednesday, which contradicts several other recent surveys.

The poll, taken in the second half of April by Zogby America for the Center for Immigration Studies, found that 69 percent of Americans favor a bill passed by the House of Representatives that would fortify the border, force businesses to verify that workers are legal and allow greater cooperation on immigration from local law enforcement.

By contrast, 43 percent favored a plan being debated in the Senate that would allow the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants who are already here to apply for citizenship. It also would double the number of future green cards -- permits to live in the United States permanently and apply for citizenship -- and it would admit an additional 400,000 foreign workers each year.

....

The poll also found respondents were skeptical about the need for immigrant labor in the U.S. economy, saying that if wages were higher, Americans would be attracted to low-skill jobs currently filled by immigrants.

The survey's results regarding the House and Senate immigration proposals run counter to other recent polls, which have found that Americans generally prefer combining tougher enforcement and a path to legal status for the undocumented.

A nationwide Los Angeles Times poll conducted a week earlier found 54 percent of American adults -- not just voters -- support a guest worker program and 66 percent favor a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants in the United States.

That poll also found that 42 percent favored and 35 percent opposed fencing the border and making illegal presence a felony, both provisions of the House bill.

Because of the different wording of questions, timing of the polls and universe of people surveyed it's hard to compare the results, emphasized L.A. Times pollster Susan H. Pinkus.

"Zogby used likely voters; the Times/Bloomberg poll was based on all adults nationwide," she said. "So you're comparing apples to oranges."

The Times poll surveyed 1,357 adults and had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Yet another poll, also released Wednesday, found another result: 80 percent of Latino registered voters supported the Senate proposal for a guest worker program and earned citizenship for illegal immigrants. That survey, which included 800 voters adults and had a margin of error of plus or minus 3.2 percentage points, was conducted by Lake Research Partners for the Latino Policy Coalition in Sacramento.

Polling on immigration is volatile because the topic is so loaded, said Barbara O'Connor, a professor of communications at California State University Sacramento.

"This issue is like abortion, it really is a clash of absolutes," she said. "Getting people to express their opinion on something really value-driven and deeply held" can be challenging, especially when questions are worded differently.

Regardless of their opinions on how to resolve the issue, a majority of Americans now consider immigration a high priority, said O'Connor.

[Old Dude]

Here's the actual poll & results mentioned above:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/2006poll.html

It was conducted from 4/17 thru 4/26.

It would be interesting to see how this was affected, if at all, by the May Day demonstrations. My guess is that it would still be pretty close, but who knows.

[alkemical]

for those given.... guest status - i'd like them on probation too until they are given the 'go'.

[Old Dude]

Technically, I think anyone who isn't a US Citizen is sort of on probation, anyway. Some can be deported for almost any reason. But even permanent legal residents with perfectly valid cards can be deported if they are convicted of virtually any felony, or almost any drug offense.

[defenseman]

IF GW and the boys in DC don't watch it, they are going to fuel a non-combative civil war the likes we've never seen. Shut down the border , get us pointed in the right direction, and THEN we'll talk. I'm tired of this BS, I think I'll retire and go into politics..dman

[Old Dude]

If the Zogby poll holds up, the Senate might reconsider and pass the House Bill, or at least some watered-down version of it, after all. Those numbers are very imposing.

[Old Dude]

The surprising thing to me is that the support for "get tough" measures is the weakest in the west, compared to the northeast, midwest and south.

That's surprising because one would think that there are far more illegal immigrants in the southwest, and the anti-illegal immigration organizations have been most vocal and active in the SW.

My guess would be that the lower support there is a result of more hispanic voters in the west, who are also, by a large margin, the ethnic group least in favor of the "get tough" approach. So maybe that's not so surprising after all.

[Rascal]

You answered your question with the last statement.

[Spider]

I'm going on a long rant. Somebody stop me...


sweeet post .................realy .......

[Rohirrim]

There are a few things that surprise me about this whole thing. Number one among them is that the liberal wing of the Dems is selling out its historical constituency, the working poor of America, and especially the African American voter. Isn't it blatantly obvious to even the biggest dope in America that no black leaders were marching with the illegal aliens? Wouldn't you think that Jesse would jump right in there for a photo op? Or Al Sharpton? They've been silent. Why? Because they know it's the black community that is getting hit the hardest by illegal immigration. I've heard on the radio some black, small business owners who are absolutely furious about illegal immigration. They are the ones who are getting undercut on bids and losing jobs, not to mention, it is their communities that are being overrun by the immigrant population moving in. The only thing I've heard from a couple of black leaders is them getting angry that the illegal aliens were trying to lump their cause in with civil rights, which it clearly has nothing in common with. So, politically, are the Dems selling out the blacks in the hopes that some kind of giant Latino vote will suddenly materialize? Don't they realize that the Latino bloc, year after year, has the worst turnout numbers at the polls of any bloc?

I'm amazed that no matter how badly the GOP screws up, the Dems can outdo them.

[Old Dude]

...
I'm amazed that no matter how badly the GOP screws up, the Dems can outdo them.

The impression that has been given out by a lot of people is that the Dem leaders are fairly united on this issue, while the Republicans are badly split between business interests who want the workers and conservatives who don't. And, supposedly, the Dems have dragged their feet on the Senate Bill in order to let the Republicans, and Bush in particular, twist in the wind until election time. The Dem leaders have also positioned themselves to cash in on the majority of new voters if naturalization proceeds ..

... but, if you check out the Zogby poll, the Dem voters look like they are split far worse than the Republicans.

I figure the whole thing will backfire and rebound to the benefit of the Republicans. The conservatives will be happy because the influx will be reduced, they'll get their wall, some aliens will get deported, and the illegals will never get naturalized.

The business interests will be happy, because the illegals will be driven even further into the shadows and can therefore be paid even less. A few businesses will be prosecuted, of course, but not the ones smart enough to cover their tracks and make political contributions to the right people.

[broncocalijohn]

If we ever get to the point of "rounding up" the illegal immigrants, they won't be in the prison system for very long and will be deported ASAP. However, that won't happen because businesses depend on them too much for cheap labor. The solution is a multistep process.

1) Secure the borders
2) Allow the Social Security Administration to cooperate with INS
3) Fine businesses who knowingly employ illegals
4) Reform welfare so that these people aren't eligible when they are unemployed
5) Encourage a change in Mexican government so that Mexicans can make a decent wage in their own country and have no need to be here.

Pretty simple...LOL :crazy:


I like to add 6) make having a baby in America born to an illegal a non citizen or citizen without welfare rights
You do the 6 thngs and the illegals will have no choice but to go home or be homeless.