Some reasons why Jay Cutler might start in 2006

[footstepsfrom#27]

All the discusssion I've seen so far on the predicament Jake Plummer finds himself in has focused on the thought that barring something completely unforseen, Plummer will play his last year in Denver next season and Cutler will take over in 2007 as our new starter after the obligatory year on the bench.

I'm not so sure.

In the 1999 season following John Elway's retirement, Mike Shanahan came off back to back Superbowl championships with the opportunity to do what no other NFL team had ever done; win three in a row. On his roster were two veteran QB's and one guy who he drafted in the 3rd round the year before. Combined together, Bubby Brister and Chris Miller had 23 years of NFL experience with 2,719 pass completions and over 200 TD passes.

Brian Griese? He opened the 1999 season as Shanahan's starter with a grand total of 1 NFL pass completion.

Griese was Shanahan's choice in spite of naysayers who said he wasn't ready. At Michigan he started 23 games before he came to Denver and watched from the sidelines for one NFL season carrying a clipboard. Compare this to Jay Cutler.

Cutler started all 4 years he played at Vanderbilt, making him twice as experienced coming out of college as Griese was. While Griese had the benefit of being in Denver in 1998, you have to wonder how much he learned standing on the sidelines watching Elway close his Hall of Fame career. Of course Griese was also considered a very smart quarterback...his Wonderlic score was 39. But Jay Cutler must be pretty sharp himself. Vanderbilt is an elite academic institution in the same rarified air as schools like Stanford and Duke...basically an Ivy League caliber academic institution in the Southeastern Conference. Add to this the fact that Griese was nowhere near the prospect that Cutler is coming into the NFL. Drafted in the 3rd round, he doesn't have the physical tools that Cutler has, either with his arm or his feet.

Yet Shanahan started him over two grey beards. There is precedent here for the argument that Jake may have played his last game as a Bronco.

There's another reason as well that I think this; the success of the Steelers Ben Roethlisberger. Big Ben did what only Dan Marino has done before, perform at a very high level in his rookie year. But let's not forget how he did it. The Steelers held Roethlisberger in check his rookie year, simplifying their offense and mainly using a conservative game plan built on their running game and their defense to go 15-1. They didn't ask Roethlisberger to win games; they only asked him to avoid losing them and play smart football.

This brings up an obvious point. Jake Plummer's been running an offense designed to protect him as well, and Plummer has been around a lot longer than Big Ben. The question is this; if Denver is going to run a simplified offense designed to minimize mistakes and keeps their QB from opening up the game plan, how does Jake's experience benefit him in a battle for the starting job with Cutler? If Roethlisberger could be successful his rookie year running an offense designed to prevent him from having to be the guy who controls the game and wasn't expected to have to win it, why not Cutler as well? In other words, Shanahan could plug Cutler in his rookie year without changing anything Denver did last year. If he proved to be able to handle this, he could gradually open it up as the season goes along.

Shanahan has to consider how much of an effort he gets from Jake next year, and how focused he is even if his intentions are good. Is it possible he starts Cutler? I think it is, if for no other reason than Cutler is probably better prepared right now than Griese was in 1999, both physically and mentally in terms of experience.

Conventional wisdom says you let a QB sit for a while before he plays. The fact that Cutler is even here to start with in the wake of a 14-4 season has to make one wonder whether Mike Shanahan really cares what conventional wisdom says.

Jake in 2006...lame duck starter or riding the pine as Cutler's backup?

Discuss...

[epicSocialism4tw]

Good post, 27...I'll weigh in later.

[Master___Pain]

That's crazy talk.

Plummer is a much better QB than either of the two vets you mentioned. Both Brister and Miller were on their last legs and were not starters in the previous 9 seasons.

The only way Cutler starts next year is if PLummer goes down with a serious injury.

[Ray Finkle]

All the discusssion I've seen so far on the predicament Jake Plummer finds himself in has focused on the thought that barring something completely unforseen, Plummer will play his last year in Denver next season and Cutler will take over in 2007 as our new starter after the obligatory year on the bench.

I'm not so sure.

In the 1999 season following John Elway's retirement, Mike Shanahan came off back to back Superbowl championships with the opportunity to do what no other NFL team had ever done; win three in a row. On his roster were two veteran QB's and one guy who he drafted in the 3rd round the year before. Combined together, Bubby Brister and Chris Miller had 23 years of NFL experience with 2,719 pass completions and over 200 TD passes.

Brian Griese? He opened the 1999 season as Shanahan's starter with a grand total of 1 NFL pass completion.

Griese was Shanahan's choice in spite of naysayers who said he wasn't ready. At Michigan he started 23 games before he came to Denver and watched from the sidelines for one NFL season carrying a clipboard. Compare this to Jay Cutler.

Cutler started all 4 years he played at Vanderbilt, making him twice as experienced coming out of college as Griese was. While Griese had the benefit of being in Denver in 1998, you have to wonder how much he learned standing on the sidelines watching Elway close his Hall of Fame career. Of course Griese was also considered a very smart quarterback...his Wonderlic score was 39. But Jay Cutler must be pretty sharp himself. Vanderbilt is an elite academic institution in the same rarified air as schools like Stanford and Duke...basically an Ivy League caliber academic institution in the Southeastern Conference. Add to this the fact that Griese was nowhere near the prospect that Cutler is coming into the NFL. Drafted in the 3rd round, he doesn't have the physical tools that Cutler has, either with his arm or his feet.

Yet Shanahan started him over two grey beards. There is precedent here for the argument that Jake may have played his last game as a Bronco.

There's another reason as well that I think this; the success of the Steelers Ben Roethlisberger. Big Ben did what only Dan Marino has done before, perform at a very high level in his rookie year. But let's not forget how he did it. The Steelers held Roethlisberger in check his rookie year, simplifying their offense and mainly using a conservative game plan built on their running game and their defense to go 15-1. They didn't ask Roethlisberger to win games; they only asked him to avoid losing them and play smart football.

This brings up an obvious point. Jake Plummer's been running an offense designed to protect him as well, and Plummer has been around a lot longer than Big Ben. The question is this; if Denver is going to run a simplified offense designed to minimize mistakes and keeps their QB from opening up the game plan, how does Jake's experience benefit him in a battle for the starting job with Cutler? If Roethlisberger could be successful his rookie year running an offense designed to prevent him from having to be the guy who controls the game and wasn't expected to have to win it, why not Cutler as well? In other words, Shanahan could plug Cutler in his rookie year without changing anything Denver did last year. If he proved to be able to handle this, he could gradually open it up as the season goes along.

Shanahan has to consider how much of an effort he gets from Jake next year, and how focused he is even if his intentions are good. Is it possible he starts Cutler? I think it is, if for no other reason than Cutler is probably better prepared right now than Griese was in 1999, both physically and mentally in terms of experience.

Conventional wisdom says you let a QB sit for a while before he plays. The fact that Cutler is even here to start with in the wake of a 14-4 season has to make one wonder whether Mike Shanahan really cares what conventional wisdom says.

Jake in 2006...lame duck starter or riding the pine as Cutler's backup?

Discuss...

Griese had a year to sit and learn, Culter needs work on his footwork. It would be a bad idea to start him...

[Old Dude]

The main difference is that Griese had a full year to learn the system and take reps in practice.

The only way we see Cutler starting out there this year is if Jake gets badly hurt and BVP proves even more ineffective than expected.

2007 might be a different story.

[Northman]

It all depends on how Jake plays this year. Isnt this the final year of his Contract? If Jake performs well and doenst tank like he did against Pitt than im sure Shanny will resign him. But if he doesnt perform well im sure It will be time for Cutler to take the helm.

[Hotrod]

This should go well.

Anyway even thou I had some of the same thoughts I think we give him a year or two and dont risk screwing up his mind with a ruff rookie season.

[Old Dude]

I suppose that if the Broncos run away with the division and clinch very early we might see Cutler get a chance late in the year - or - conversely, if the Broncos go completely in the tank and get eliminated by Thanksgiving .... but I doubt that either of those things will happen.

[Jens1893]

I think Shanahan will put the starting QB spot up for grabs in 2007.

It´s a bit disappointing that we´ll probably have to wait yet another year or more to reap the benefits.

[yerner]

We'd throw the season away if that happens.

[Jens1893]

It all depends on how Jake plays this year. Isnt this the final year of his Contract? If Jake performs well and doenst tank like he did against Pitt than im sure Shanny will resign him. But if he doesnt perform well im sure It will be time for Cutler to take the helm.

Plummer, Jake

Salary History
2003 530000.00
2004 660000.00
2005 665000.00
2006 4300000.00
2007 5300000.00
2008 4800000.00
2009 5800000.00

7y, 40m $, 7m guaranteed

[ludo21]

Jake is better than Cutler NOW. (which is what matters to Shanny!)

It takes a couple years to soak in the system. And i dont think some young Rook will be able to just come in and take the reins.

With that said, if Cutler out performs Plummer (my boy), Cutler better be the opening day starter.

[Taco John]

The only way Plummer loses his job is if he pulls a Bubby and starts to tank it in the preseason and goes to the media with the take that "they're only preseason games anyway."

Jake gives us our best shot at winning it all this year.

[Master___Pain]

The only way Plummer loses his job is if he pulls a Bubby and starts to tank it in the preseason and goes to the media with the take that "they're only preseason games anyway."


Followed by an SI article where he's quoted as saying "We're done"

[Hulamau]

The main difference is that Griese had a full year to learn the system and take reps in practice.

The only way we see Cutler starting out there this year is if Jake gets badly hurt and BVP proves even more ineffective than expected.

2007 might be a different story.


Thats about the size of it.

If we do poorly this year and if Walker isn't yet ready to perform at a high level and Lelie is gone that's a real possiblity.

If by the last half of the season we are stuggling at all and/or Jake gets hurt I coudl then see him throwing Cutler in a little early and get his feet wet and primed to satrt in 07.

After his year we owe Jake a PILE of money that I just don't see us spending.

Id love nothing more for us to win the SB this year and have Jake ride out into the sunset on top, but I also feel that we were alot futher away from doing so than our magical year free of any injuries of note made it seem like.

[Mediator12]

No way.

Good Lord.

Enough.

We just got O4Life off the cliff!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Some reasons why Jay Cutler might start in 2006
There's only 2, either Jake quits or gets hurt.

[DomCasual]

To be honest, I haven't even taken the time to think much about Cutler. I am still reeling over the good fortune of us getting Stanley McClover in the 7th round. ;)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

To be honest, I haven't even taken the time to think much about Cutler. I am still reeling over the good fortune of us getting Stanley McClover in the 7th round. ;)
WOW, we got him, what a steal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Popps]

It's not the time to go with a rookie. We've got too good of a balance. That's why it's a shame we choose to continue to ignore what could be the last piece of the puzzle... a pass rush. (That's where players chase and occasionally tackle the quarterback, among other disruptions.)

Jake hit his stride this year and should only get better. We'll get a couple of more productive seasons out of him and hopefully a championship before we start our next era of winning football.

[Ballhawk]

I think Cutler is the best QB prospect to come out in the last three years, but no way he beats out Jake for the job in 2006. Shanny got Cutler so he could open up the playbook again, not reduce it even more.

This is Jake's team and will be Jake's team until Cutler is the better QB.

[RodInCanton]

Hey fellas. First post so be gentle ;-P Definitely don't think Cutler will start this year but if we don't go to the SB I can see MS going w/ Cutler the year after and trying to trade Jake for a decent draft pick. Then again, I've learned long ago not to try to guess what Shanahan will do because in the end only he knows what's up. Gotta say though, I'm definitely stoked w/ the way the draft worked out for us. We got immediate help and our future taken care of as well! That's the difference btwn us and other teams in the AFC West: They are so preoccupied w/ catching up w/ us now they don't address the future!

[Mediator12]

I think Cutler is the best QB prospect to come out in the last three years, but no way he beats out Jake for the job in 2006. Shanny got Cutler so he could open up the playbook again, not reduce it even more.

This is Jake's team and will be Jake's team until Cutler is the better QB.

Yeah, what he said :welcome:

[Taco John]

I think Cutler is the best QB prospect to come out in the last three years, but no way he beats out Jake for the job in 2006. Shanny got Cutler so he could open up the playbook again, not reduce it even more.

This is Jake's team and will be Jake's team until Cutler is the better QB.


Quoted for truth...

[ColoradoDarin]

Well thought out post, but I'm not buying Jay starting over Jake, at least this year.

[Tombstone RJ]

As someone mentioned above, the only way Cutler starts as QB for the Broncos in 2006 is if Jake goes down with an injury.

Even if the team is 8-8 and don't make the playoffs with Jake at the helm, no way Cutler starts unless Jake is injured.

Jake is THE QB for the 2006 season, and quite possible longer, depending on how the Broncos do. In 2007, Cutler will be given a chance to compete for the starting job.

Using the Griese analogy is not really a good comparison, especially considering that the Broncos starting QB retired, and Bristor and Miller were never starting QBs in the NFL. Griese ended up starting because he knew the system and the playbook better than the other two, and he could make the reads and the throws. In other words, he could run the offense without it being dumbed down.

[Jason in LA]

All the discusssion I've seen so far on the predicament Jake Plummer finds himself in has focused on the thought that barring something completely unforseen, Plummer will play his last year in Denver next season and Cutler will take over in 2007 as our new starter after the obligatory year on the bench.

I'm not so sure.

In the 1999 season following John Elway's retirement, Mike Shanahan came off back to back Superbowl championships with the opportunity to do what no other NFL team had ever done; win three in a row. On his roster were two veteran QB's and one guy who he drafted in the 3rd round the year before. Combined together, Bubby Brister and Chris Miller had 23 years of NFL experience with 2,719 pass completions and over 200 TD passes.

Brian Griese? He opened the 1999 season as Shanahan's starter with a grand total of 1 NFL pass completion.

Griese was Shanahan's choice in spite of naysayers who said he wasn't ready. At Michigan he started 23 games before he came to Denver and watched from the sidelines for one NFL season carrying a clipboard. Compare this to Jay Cutler.

Cutler started all 4 years he played at Vanderbilt, making him twice as experienced coming out of college as Griese was. While Griese had the benefit of being in Denver in 1998, you have to wonder how much he learned standing on the sidelines watching Elway close his Hall of Fame career. Of course Griese was also considered a very smart quarterback...his Wonderlic score was 39. But Jay Cutler must be pretty sharp himself. Vanderbilt is an elite academic institution in the same rarified air as schools like Stanford and Duke...basically an Ivy League caliber academic institution in the Southeastern Conference. Add to this the fact that Griese was nowhere near the prospect that Cutler is coming into the NFL. Drafted in the 3rd round, he doesn't have the physical tools that Cutler has, either with his arm or his feet.

Yet Shanahan started him over two grey beards. There is precedent here for the argument that Jake may have played his last game as a Bronco.

There's another reason as well that I think this; the success of the Steelers Ben Roethlisberger. Big Ben did what only Dan Marino has done before, perform at a very high level in his rookie year. But let's not forget how he did it. The Steelers held Roethlisberger in check his rookie year, simplifying their offense and mainly using a conservative game plan built on their running game and their defense to go 15-1. They didn't ask Roethlisberger to win games; they only asked him to avoid losing them and play smart football.

This brings up an obvious point. Jake Plummer's been running an offense designed to protect him as well, and Plummer has been around a lot longer than Big Ben. The question is this; if Denver is going to run a simplified offense designed to minimize mistakes and keeps their QB from opening up the game plan, how does Jake's experience benefit him in a battle for the starting job with Cutler? If Roethlisberger could be successful his rookie year running an offense designed to prevent him from having to be the guy who controls the game and wasn't expected to have to win it, why not Cutler as well? In other words, Shanahan could plug Cutler in his rookie year without changing anything Denver did last year. If he proved to be able to handle this, he could gradually open it up as the season goes along.

Shanahan has to consider how much of an effort he gets from Jake next year, and how focused he is even if his intentions are good. Is it possible he starts Cutler? I think it is, if for no other reason than Cutler is probably better prepared right now than Griese was in 1999, both physically and mentally in terms of experience.

Conventional wisdom says you let a QB sit for a while before he plays. The fact that Cutler is even here to start with in the wake of a 14-4 season has to make one wonder whether Mike Shanahan really cares what conventional wisdom says.

Jake in 2006...lame duck starter or riding the pine as Cutler's backup?

Discuss...

I don't think that either of your comparisons fits with the Broncos current situation.

1. Jake Plummer is the starter, and has proven that he can run the system. His win loss record speaks for itself. Three trips to the playoffs, and one trip to the AFC title game. He made the Pro Bowl last year.

You can't compare him to Bubby Brister, who started a few games on a very powerful team. I don't think Bubby started against any good teams. Bubby wasn't the starter, he didn't lead the Broncos to the playoffs, and he wasn't a Pro Bowl QB.

You can't compare Bubby to Plummer. That's not fair to Jake. The situations are very different. That comparison doesn't help your agrument.

2. Plummer is way better than Maddox, and Plummer is a legit starter. Maddox was the starter because Kordell Steward sucked. Big Ben didn't win the job from Maddox either. He got it when Maddox was injuried, and never gave the job back, just like Brady did in NE. So that point doesn't work either. Plummer would have to get hurt for you to use that point, but you can't tell the future. This point, like the last one, doesn't help your argument.

Chances are Cutler will sit for one year. I wouldn't have any problem if he sat for two years. I liked the way Plummer played last year.

I was a big part of that "Plummer's not to blame" thread. I was made out to be a person that hated Plummer, and wanted him out. But that was never my point. My point was that after a very shakey '04 season, I wanted a backup plan. Well, a year later, here's the backup plan. But I was very happy with the way Plummer played this past year. I haven't had anything negative to say about him. I'd rather see Plummer in there than a rookie.

Cutler is the future, but with Plummer being there, there is no need to rush Cutler on the field. I don't want Cutler to end up like a Kyle Bowler.

[Taco John]

Simply put, there's a threshold that Cutler will have to cross before he's given a shot... That threshold is "gives us the best chance to win now."

Shanahan isn't going to start Cutler over Plummer for any other reason than he gives us the best chance to win now.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Just to be clear here; I'm not suggesting I think that Cutler should start. I'm suggesting that he might start...a big difference.

I think the unknown question here is how well Jake Plummer can play in a year when he knows he's merely marking time for the young kid? It's taken Jake two years of hard work to get to where he's at, and I think that's taken a good bit of committment and dedication mentally on his part. Will that same committment be there this year? A better question; does Mike Shanahan think it will be there?

Question: how many of you predicted before this draft that Shanahan would trade up in this draft to take a quarterback in the 1st round? This guy does not neccessarily do what we think he will.

The argument that Plummer gives them the best chance to win now seems to make sense on the surface, and I would tend to agree with that to a point. But ask yourself a question; is Shanahan measuring Jake and evaluating his future by his improvement in the regular season, or by his performance against the Steelers in the playoffs? I think that makes a big difference in how we see this.

Second, while the argument can be made that Jake is a much better QB than what Shanny had to work with in either Brister or Miller, the numbers don't suggest that those guys were really bad choices. Certainly they don't merit the thinking that Griese got the job because they had nobody else. Brister had about 5 years worth of starting experience before he got to Denver and he was in Denver for the '97-99 seasons...so the argument that Griese knew the system better is untrue. Brister had also started several games for Denver in '98 when John was hurt and played very well, throwing 131 passes with 10 TD's and only 3 INT's to go with a 99.0 QB rating...all this during the same year Griese sat on the bench carrying a clipboard. There is no question that Brister had much more experience in Denver's offense than Griese had. Denver was poised to return to the Superbowl for an unpresedented 3rd time in a row, a situation where success seemingly was more imminent than it is now, yet Shanny went with a guy who had zero experience over a guy with a lot of experience, both in our system and overall.

Chris Miller had 7 years of starting experience prior to coming to Denver in '99 and had 20 more TD passes than INT's in his career with a QB rating similiar to what Jake has. I believe he also made the pro bowl once, just like Jake.

My point here is not that these guys are as good as Plummer or not as good as Plummer, but rather whether Shanahan sees it that way. If Mike was willing to hand the keys to the bus to a kid drafted in the 3rd round who had thrown only 3 passes in his NFL career over guys with a combined 12years of starting experience in a year where they were defending a Superbowl championship, it doesn't seem that far fetched to me that he would do the same with a guy who is a lot more talented than Griese, even if he doesn't have the benefit of having carried a clipboard for a year.

Somebody suggested that the offense would have to be more limited for Cutler to play. In fact, the offense is already being limited with Plummer in there. If it wasn't, we would have seen Lelie posting numbers like he did in 2004, when Jake was allowed to use the whole playbook. Whether this is because of Jake's physical limitations or his mental mistakes is probably irrelevant. I don't see that the current offense would actually change that much for Cutler since it's already being scaled back.

Is Shanny taking the approach that we need Plummer in there now so we can win now? That may be true. But if he were that concerned about winning now rather than later, would he have drafted Cutler to begin with? If he viewed Jake as the answer to take us to the next level in the playoffs, would he have drafted Cutler at all? The answer to both these questions seems to be...no. If Mike was convinced we had a great chance to win this year, Bunkley, Ngata, Lawson...etc...would have been the direction we went in this draft. Taking Cutler tells me Mike's not convinced we can win this year and he's also not convinced Plummer can be the one to get us there.

How much value is there in watchinig from the sidelines and practicing? Obviously it helps, but getting on the field in the games helps a lot more. My question is whether Shanny might feel he can do as well, or almost as well with Cutler in this offense as he could with Jake, with the added bonus of having Cutler on the field in 2007 with a full year of starting experience behind him.

Again...how many in here thought he'd trade up for a QB in the first round?

This guy is not always predictable...

[Jason in LA]

Just to be clear here; I'm not suggesting I think that Cutler should start. I'm suggesting that he might start...a big difference.

I think the unknown question here is how well Jake Plummer can play in a year when he knows he's merely marking time for the young kid?

I don't think there will be any competition for the starters job this season. Only way Cutler gets in is if Jake gets hurt, like it's been said many times.

I wouldn't say Jake is just holding Culter's spot. This team is ready to win a title now. That's the goal for this year. They aren't going to just take the next year or two off while this kid develops. Jake's goal is to lead this team to a title.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Master Pain ended this thread with the 3rd post.

Cutler will only start in 2 situations:
1. Jake gets hurt.
2. Denver's locked up HFA (or their seed) and Jay gets to start the last game so Plummer doesn't get hurt.

[Jason in LA]

Second, while the argument can be made that Jake is a much better QB than what Shanny had to work with in either Brister or Miller, the numbers don't suggest that those guys were really bad choices. Certainly they don't merit the thinking that Griese got the job because they had nobody else. Brister had about 5 years worth of starting experience before he got to Denver and he was in Denver for the '97-99 seasons...so the argument that Griese knew the system better is untrue. Brister had also started several games for Denver in '98 when John was hurt and played very well, throwing 131 passes with 10 TD's and only 3 INT's to go with a 99.0 QB rating...all this during the same year Griese sat on the bench carrying a clipboard. There is no question that Brister had much more experience in Denver's offense than Griese had. Denver was poised to return to the Superbowl for an unpresedented 3rd time in a row, a situation where success seemingly was more imminent than it is now, yet Shanny went with a guy who had zero experience over a guy with a lot of experience, both in our system and overall.

Chris Miller had 7 years of starting experience prior to coming to Denver in '99 and had 20 more TD passes than INT's in his career with a QB rating similiar to what Jake has. I believe he also made the pro bowl once, just like Jake.

My point here is not that these guys are as good as Plummer or not as good as Plummer, but rather whether Shanahan sees it that way. If Mike was willing to hand the keys to the bus to a kid drafted in the 3rd round who had thrown only 3 passes in his NFL career over guys with a combined 12years of starting experience in a year where they were defending a Superbowl championship, it doesn't seem that far fetched to me that he would do the same with a guy who is a lot more talented than Griese, even if he doesn't have the benefit of having carried a clipboard for a year.



The argument still doesn't hold up. Brister was a backup, had been one for years. Miller was out of football for a few years when the Broncos signed him. You can't compare those two guys to a QB coming off of a Pro Bowl year, who had just led the team to the AFC Title game. Sorry, just doesn't work. It's a totally different situation.

[DrFate]

The only way Plummer loses his job is if he pulls a Bubby and starts to tank it in the preseason and goes to the media with the take that "they're only preseason games anyway."

Jake gives us our best shot at winning it all this year.

Agreed.

I guess I should be surprised that it took this long for this thread to start.

[BroncoFanDoug]

QB controversy after 48 hours of draft! I love it! Sooo, I generally agree with the overall sentiment - it seems an unlikely scenario. But it does not seem impossible.

What if Cutler takes to coaching like nobody's business, and then lights it up in the pre-season while Jake is so/so? I can conceive of a series of events that could have 95% of this board screaming to start him this year.

Unlikely, but me thinks not inconceivable.

[-Slap-]

Well, I'm throwing my full support behind our quarterback.

"Jake! Jake! Jake! Jay...ke! Jay! Jay! Jay!"

[footstepsfrom#27]

The argument still doesn't hold up. Brister was a backup, had been one for years. Miller was out of football for a few years when the Broncos signed him. You can't compare those two guys to a QB coming off of a Pro Bowl year, who had just led the team to the AFC Title game. Sorry, just doesn't work. It's a totally different situation.
First, I question that Jake is a pro bowler. He got in after somebody else declined or got hurt if memory serves...wasn't he an alternate? He was effective but he also limited our offense to a one dimensional game plan that can't play from behind. Second, as I stated, this is not so much about how good Jake is vs how good Brister/Miller were. I think it's more about the fact that Griese was a virtual unknown...a clipboard caddy and a 3rd round pick. Look at it like this:

Jake>Brister/Miller
Cutler>Griese

In other words...while Jake is undoubtedly better than Brister or Miller, the real question is whether Shanny sees Cutler as significantly better than Griese.

I'm not pushing a QB controversy...just speculating...

[ncjmirabile]

Didn't Elway tell the press that Shannahan's offense was kind of Einsteiny and he felt somewhere like a C student in the offense.

Cutler will get serious starting consideration when he picks up the offense.

I would also hope that Shannahan learned from past mistakes.

[Kaylore]

This has to be some kind of record. The day after the draft and people are already trying to rationalize Cutler starting.

Jason in LA's post explains everything as it should be.

Jake is the man.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The argument still doesn't hold up. Brister was a backup, had been one for years. Miller was out of football for a few years when the Broncos signed him. You can't compare those two guys to a QB coming off of a Pro Bowl year, who had just led the team to the AFC Title game. Sorry, just doesn't work. It's a totally different situation.
Setting aside for a moment the questionable assertion that Jake is a true pro bowler; how does Brister being a backup work in favor of Griese? Griese wasn't even a backup...he was a backup to the backup...total career stats: 1-3, 2 yards, 0 TD's, 1 INT. Brister had started several games the year before and played well in Shanahan's offense. He might not have been a true starter, but Griese wasn't even a real backup.

My point is that I think most NFL coaches would choose an experienced backup quarterback over a guy who had no playing experience at all, in any capacity, especially in a year in which they thought they'd be a playoff team. Shanahan, IMO...chose talent, or at least what he perceived at that time...as talent, over experience, and he did it in a year in which he had every expectation that Denver could possibly defend their title.

Consider the two situations and they are actually very similiar.

On offense the '99 team still had the best running back in the game in Davis, two 1000 yard receivers in a young Rod Smith and Eddie Mac, plus Shannon Sharp and Byron Chamberlain, a strong offensive line, etc...on offense. On defense we had a young Trevor Pryce and Alfred Williams on the line with Romo and Mobley at LB and a secondary we boosted with the addiition of Dale Carter. The only major change was at QB. Despite all this, Shanahan chose talent over experience, even though the guy he chose had never completed a pass in the NFL.

The current situation may not be exactly the same, since Plummer has been a starter, but I can argue that our '99 team was much stronger at the other offensive positions other than QB, meaning Shanahan had just as much right to think we'd go far in the playoffs. If Shanny considered it possible that a clipboard caddy who had zero NFL experience was the right choice then, it's possible he considers a guy who people are saying is the next Brett Favre a worthy opening day starter this time around.

[footstepsfrom#27]

This has to be some kind of record. The day after the draft and people are already trying to rationalize Cutler starting.
Well not exactly...personally I hope Plummer is the starter. I'm just wondering if Shanahan will see it that way.

[errand]

All the discusssion I've seen so far on the predicament Jake Plummer finds himself in has focused on the thought that barring something completely unforseen, Plummer will play his last year in Denver next season and Cutler will take over in 2007 as our new starter after the obligatory year on the bench.

I'm not so sure.

In the 1999 season following John Elway's retirement, Mike Shanahan came off back to back Superbowl championships with the opportunity to do what no other NFL team had ever done; win three in a row. On his roster were two veteran QB's and one guy who he drafted in the 3rd round the year before. Combined together, Bubby Brister and Chris Miller had 23 years of NFL experience with 2,719 pass completions and over 200 TD passes.

Brian Griese? He opened the 1999 season as Shanahan's starter with a grand total of 1 NFL pass completion.

Griese was Shanahan's choice in spite of naysayers who said he wasn't ready. At Michigan he started 23 games before he came to Denver and watched from the sidelines for one NFL season carrying a clipboard. Compare this to Jay Cutler.


And how did that work out for us, pray tell?

You could be right...but what if your wrong?

Another scenario to compare this to was in '78 Norris Weese was pegged to start for the Broncos and promptly lost his job to the grizzled vet Morton....

ditto for '79...again Morton beat him out.

'80 the Broncos traded for Jets hot shot back-up Matt Robinson...and Morton again saved the season from being a total disaster.

'81 the Broncos acquired 49ers hot shot backup Steve DeBerg to replace Morton....and again Morton turned out to be the best option.

It seemed every season after that magical '77 season the Broncos front office tried to find Morton's replacement...and it backfired on them everytime.

[Spider]

And how did that work out for us, pray tell?

You could be right...but what if your wrong?

Another scenario to compare this to was in '78 Norris Weese was pegged to start for the Broncos and promptly lost his job to the grizzled vet Morton....

ditto for '79...again Morton beat him out.

'80 the Broncos traded for Jets hot shot back-up Matt Robinson...and Morton again saved the season from being a total disaster.

'81 the Broncos acquired 49ers hot shot backup Steve DeBerg to replace Morton....and again Morton turned out to be the best option.

It seemed every season after that magical '77 season the Broncos front office tried to find Morton's replacement...and it backfired on them everytime.

Morton was more then a mere mortal though .............Double tough fear never entered his mind ............ But after he found Jesus he couldnt find Haven moses

[footstepsfrom#27]

And how did that work out for us, pray tell?

You could be right...but what if your wrong?
Davis got hurt, which obviously hurt...

I don't understand the other question.

[Tombstone RJ]

Morton was more then a mere mortal though .............Double tough fear never entered his mind ............ But after he found Jesus he couldnt find Haven moses

Morton was brutal to watch, brutal. I still can't believe Deberg couldn't beat him out. Anyhow, it all changed circa 1983...

[Little44]

I would still take Leinart over both of them! :D

[Jason in LA]

First, I question that Jake is a pro bowler. He got in after somebody else declined or got hurt if memory serves...wasn't he an alternate? He was effective but he also limited our offense to a one dimensional game plan that can't play from behind. Second, as I stated, this is not so much about how good Jake is vs how good Brister/Miller were. I think it's more about the fact that Griese was a virtual unknown...a clipboard caddy and a 3rd round pick. Look at it like this:

Jake>Brister/Miller
Cutler>Griese

In other words...while Jake is undoubtedly better than Brister or Miller, the real question is whether Shanny sees Cutler as significantly better than Griese.

I'm not pushing a QB controversy...just speculating...

You can question Jake being a Pro Bowler. But there is no question that Jake is way better than what Brister or Miller were. It's not even close.

But can you say it's not even close between Griese and Cutler? We could probably go back and forth over which of the two were better, but there is no question that they were both around the same level.

So the situations are different, because Plummer has proven that he is a good starter, where Brister had been a backup for years, and Miller had been out of football.

Your argument still doesn't work.

[errand]

I think the unknown question here is how well Jake Plummer can play in a year when he knows he's merely marking time for the young kid? It's taken Jake two years of hard work to get to where he's at, and I think that's taken a good bit of committment and dedication mentally on his part. Will that same committment be there this year? A better question; does Mike Shanahan think it will be there?

...

Your gonna question whether or not Jake will be motivated to continue his development?

The problem you have is Jake isn't marking time for anyone...Cutler might have been a hotshot QB in college but so was Michael Bishop, Andre Ware, Akili Smith, David Klingler, and Ryan Leaf.

And before some one comes out with how much better Cutler is than these clowns, you have to remember Ryan Leaf was rated higher than Manning on alot of team's boards....ditto for Andre Ware, his numbers @ U of Houston were remarkable, as were Klingler's.

Jake's desire to win is very high....he's intense when it comes to doing whatever he has to to win a game...and a title.

As you noted Cutler has mechanic flaws..the very same ones that Jake use to have when he came from Arizona. It's taken over 2 years to change Jake's footwork....and it'll take Cutler just as long.

And what if during the adjustment, learning, watching period of Cutler's development, Jake wins the Super Bowl? Would you be willing to bench, cut or, or trade a guy who just won your favorite team's 3rd title?

[Spider]

Morton was brutal to watch, brutal. I still can't believe Deberg couldn't beat him out. Anyhow, it all changed circa 1983...
;D those bronco teams were no where as good as the late 90's team , but damn i miss alot of those players

[errand]

Morton was more then a mere mortal though .............Double tough fear never entered his mind ............ But after he found Jesus he couldnt find Haven moses

He became a born again Christian prior to coming to Denver......

BTW Randy Gradishar use to hold prayer meetings at his home..and if I'm not mistaken he and former Buffs coach McCartney run some Christian foundation.

[Spider]

He became a born again Christian prior to coming to Denver......
Thats nice ..........

[Spider]

.

BTW Randy Gradishar use to hold prayer meetings at his home..and if I'm not mistaken he and former Buffs coach McCartney run some Christian foundation.
info I realy needed ........... I will bring that up at the next meeeting:wiggle:

[Jason in LA]

Setting aside for a moment the questionable assertion that Jake is a true pro bowler; how does Brister being a backup work in favor of Griese? Griese wasn't even a backup...he was a backup to the backup...total career stats: 1-3, 2 yards, 0 TD's, 1 INT. Brister had started several games the year before and played well in Shanahan's offense. He might not have been a true starter, but Griese wasn't even a real backup.

My point is that I think most NFL coaches would choose an experienced backup quarterback over a guy who had no playing experience at all, in any capacity, especially in a year in which they thought they'd be a playoff team. Shanahan, IMO...chose talent, or at least what he perceived at that time...as talent, over experience, and he did it in a year in which he had every expectation that Denver could possibly defend their title.

Consider the two situations and they are actually very similiar.

On offense the '99 team still had the best running back in the game in Davis, two 1000 yard receivers in a young Rod Smith and Eddie Mac, plus Shannon Sharp and Byron Chamberlain, a strong offensive line, etc...on offense. On defense we had a young Trevor Pryce and Alfred Williams on the line with Romo and Mobley at LB and a secondary we boosted with the addiition of Dale Carter. The only major change was at QB. Despite all this, Shanahan chose talent over experience, even though the guy he chose had never completed a pass in the NFL.

The current situation may not be exactly the same, since Plummer has been a starter, but I can argue that our '99 team was much stronger at the other offensive positions other than QB, meaning Shanahan had just as much right to think we'd go far in the playoffs. If Shanny considered it possible that a clipboard caddy who had zero NFL experience was the right choice then, it's possible he considers a guy who people are saying is the next Brett Favre a worthy opening day starter this time around.

The situations are still very different because of Plummer compared to Brister and Miller. If Brister or Miller were in the ball park with Plummer, then you would have a point. But they are no where near Plummer. Question him all you want, but he was atleast a top 10 QB. Could you say that Brister was a top 40 QB? Probably not. He did lose out to a guy who had never played more than a few snaps.

Remember that Brister lost the job in training camp. He lost it because he wasn't good enough to be a starter in the league.

How is that similar to the situation now?

Can you make the argument that Plummer isn't good enough to be a starter? Or will suck so bad that Shanny will have to go with the younger guy? I can make that argument for Brister and Miller.

Sorry, still doesn't work. But keep trying.

If Cutler does become the starter this year, it won't be because of a similar situation in '99. It will be because of a similar situation that happened with the Pats and Steelers. Meaning Plummer will have to get hurt for Culter to start.

[errand]

Davis got hurt, which obviously hurt...

I don't understand the other question.

Olandis Gary ran for 1159 yards in Davis' stead....so the Davis injury is a cop out.

The second question was what if your scenario of Jay starting in place of Jake is wrong...what if Mike opens up competition and Jake just plain beats him out the next 2-3 years like Morton did all-comers between '78-'82?

BTW...the Griese era lasted 4 seasons....wanna go thru that kind of pain again, be my guest...start Cutler over a Pro Bowler who has led us to the playoffs in 3 consecutive seasons including last year's AFC title bout.

[errand]

info I realy needed ........... I will bring that up at the next meeeting:wiggle:

You just seem to have a problem with Christians, Spider....not sure why...there's alot of former Bronco players who are very devout Christians.

[Jason in LA]

Well not exactly...personally I hope Plummer is the starter. I'm just wondering if Shanahan will see it that way.

I don't think there is any question in the Broncos organization on who will be the starter for this year. I don't even think there will be an open competition for the job.

The only questions are from message boards.

[Spider]

You just seem to have a problem with Christians, Spider....not sure why...there's alot of former Bronco players who are very devout Christians.
not all christians , but this isnt the place for that

[errand]

If Cutler does become the starter this year, it won't be because of a similar situation in '99. It will be because of a similar situation that happened with the Pats and Steelers. Meaning Plummer will have to get hurt for Culter to start.

The problem is that these guys are so wanting to get rid of Jake, they'll come up with any kind of angle to get Cutler on the field and Jake on the next bus outta town.

There's an agenda being forged here.....

[footstepsfrom#27]

Remember that Brister lost the job in training camp. He lost it because he wasn't good enough to be a starter in the league.[quote]
Presumably, that is how Cutler would also have to win it.
Shanny's thinking:

Plummer>Brister...but...Cutler>Griese...therefore:

The difference between Plummer and Cutler is possibly the same as it was between Griese and Brister....

Bottom line: there is precedent for Shanahan going with a young unproven guy over a veteran, even coming off a successful season...

With Shanahan...expect the unexpected.

We'll know in about 4 months...

[Spider]

The problem is that these guys are so wanting to get rid of Jake, they'll come up with any kind of angle to get Cutler on the field and Jake on the next bus outta town.

There's an agenda being forged here.....
mark it down we agree .......I am still on the Jake Plummer bandwagon ........ Plummer has shown improvment every year since he came here .......

[footstepsfrom#27]

The problem is that these guys are so wanting to get rid of Jake, they'll come up with any kind of angle to get Cutler on the field and Jake on the next bus outta town.

There's an agenda being forged here.....
Gimme a break.

I've actually been a Plummer supporter throughout his career here in Denver...search and you'll see; and I would rather see him start next year than Cutler, because I fear the rookie QB getting thrown to the wolves thing...but I'm just trying to examine how Shanahan thought the last time around when faced with something similiar.

I seem to remember a lot of Bronco fans, most in fact...were highly critical of Shanahan when he decided to go with Griese. How many people thought that would happen either? I don't remember anyone thinking Griese would or should be the starter. We were poised for a 3rd run and most people figured Griese wasn't ready. Shanahan picked talent over experience, and the audition was basically the same as it will be this time around, camp and the preseason games. I don't think Griese's career as the clipboard caddy had anything to do with it.

[maven]

All the discusssion I've seen so far on the predicament Jake Plummer finds himself in has focused on the thought that barring something completely unforseen, Plummer will play his last year in Denver next season and Cutler will take over in 2007 as our new starter after the obligatory year on the bench.

I'm not so sure.

In the 1999 season following John Elway's retirement, Mike Shanahan came off back to back Superbowl championships with the opportunity to do what no other NFL team had ever done; win three in a row. On his roster were two veteran QB's and one guy who he drafted in the 3rd round the year before. Combined together, Bubby Brister and Chris Miller had 23 years of NFL experience with 2,719 pass completions and over 200 TD passes.

Brian Griese? He opened the 1999 season as Shanahan's starter with a grand total of 1 NFL pass completion.

Griese was Shanahan's choice in spite of naysayers who said he wasn't ready. At Michigan he started 23 games before he came to Denver and watched from the sidelines for one NFL season carrying a clipboard. Compare this to Jay Cutler.

Cutler started all 4 years he played at Vanderbilt, making him twice as experienced coming out of college as Griese was. While Griese had the benefit of being in Denver in 1998, you have to wonder how much he learned standing on the sidelines watching Elway close his Hall of Fame career. Of course Griese was also considered a very smart quarterback...his Wonderlic score was 39. But Jay Cutler must be pretty sharp himself. Vanderbilt is an elite academic institution in the same rarified air as schools like Stanford and Duke...basically an Ivy League caliber academic institution in the Southeastern Conference. Add to this the fact that Griese was nowhere near the prospect that Cutler is coming into the NFL. Drafted in the 3rd round, he doesn't have the physical tools that Cutler has, either with his arm or his feet.

Yet Shanahan started him over two grey beards. There is precedent here for the argument that Jake may have played his last game as a Bronco.

There's another reason as well that I think this; the success of the Steelers Ben Roethlisberger. Big Ben did what only Dan Marino has done before, perform at a very high level in his rookie year. But let's not forget how he did it. The Steelers held Roethlisberger in check his rookie year, simplifying their offense and mainly using a conservative game plan built on their running game and their defense to go 15-1. They didn't ask Roethlisberger to win games; they only asked him to avoid losing them and play smart football.

This brings up an obvious point. Jake Plummer's been running an offense designed to protect him as well, and Plummer has been around a lot longer than Big Ben. The question is this; if Denver is going to run a simplified offense designed to minimize mistakes and keeps their QB from opening up the game plan, how does Jake's experience benefit him in a battle for the starting job with Cutler? If Roethlisberger could be successful his rookie year running an offense designed to prevent him from having to be the guy who controls the game and wasn't expected to have to win it, why not Cutler as well? In other words, Shanahan could plug Cutler in his rookie year without changing anything Denver did last year. If he proved to be able to handle this, he could gradually open it up as the season goes along.

Shanahan has to consider how much of an effort he gets from Jake next year, and how focused he is even if his intentions are good. Is it possible he starts Cutler? I think it is, if for no other reason than Cutler is probably better prepared right now than Griese was in 1999, both physically and mentally in terms of experience.

Conventional wisdom says you let a QB sit for a while before he plays. The fact that Cutler is even here to start with in the wake of a 14-4 season has to make one wonder whether Mike Shanahan really cares what conventional wisdom says.

Jake in 2006...lame duck starter or riding the pine as Cutler's backup?

Discuss...

Haven't read the thread so I will give my view.

I would not be surprised at all if Denver is playing so-so under Plummer the team yanks him at some point during the season. Plummer doesn't have any guaranteed money after the upcoming season. This is the most important part of the equation. Plummer has 0 GUARANTEED MONEY in 2007. If there is a reason to insert Cutler & move towards 2007 it will happen. Cutler is the FUTURE. Plummer is not. You don't trade up in the 1st round to grab a QB to ride the bench. The situation is not the same as GB. They have a HOF QB in Favre & Rodgers will ride the pine as long as Favre is there. No Bronco fan should be surprised if the yank is done & Cutler runs the team mid-season to the end of the season getting ready for 2007.

[Hulamau]

Well, I'm throwing my full support behind our quarterback.

"Jake! Jake! Jake! Jay...ke! Jay! Jay! Jay!"

Good one Slap!

No way Jake doesn't play the whole year unless he is injured and/or starts singing the Chief's fight song in the huddle. But 2007 is really up for grabs due to the financial contract issues mentioned above by Maven.

If CUtler is anywhere nearly as sharp as Shanny and everyone expects he shoudl be ready to be very competitive in 2007 and no way they can afford to pay TWO QBs top flight dollars for long or the rest of the team suffers.

See San Diego Chargers for example. IF Cutler is half the QB we all think JAke is gone next year or before 2008 at the latest.

Even if he wins the Super Bowl this year next would be the last possbile year they might keep him on. He'l lbe 33 in 2007 and Shanny isnt about to let this Diamond in the rough that he can claim all the credit for drafting and developing go to waste.

If, as is more likely, we dont win the Super Bowl, or heaven forbid, make an early exit from the playoffs the Cutler era starts next year for better or worse, no ifs and or buts.

Either way we are witnessing the last year or two of Jake's Denver career so lets make the most of it.

[SoCalBronco]

Actually I would like to have Cutler learn on the bench for 2 full years, although 1 isnt bad. I just want to make sure he has every oppurtunty to fully absorb the offense. It's been said numerous times that it takes 3 years for a QB to fully understand the various WCO variants in the league. The worst thing for fans to do....EVEN if Plummer is struggling is to call for Cutler. The whole instant gratification thing is very counterproductive. Just watch some of those tapes, Cutler is incredibly gifted, and thus it would be a monumental error to throw him in before he has had a substantial amount of study and observation of the offense. Even if Plummer is playing flat out average, I would keep him in. Cutler's development is more important than any one season. He has the chance to be a true superstar, lets not rush anything. I want to be really conservative here with him.

[Jason in LA]

Shanny's thinking:

Plummer>Brister...but...Cutler>Griese...therefore:

The difference between Plummer and Cutler is possibly the same as it was between Griese and Brister....

Bottom line: there is precedent for Shanahan going with a young unproven guy over a veteran, even coming off a successful season...

With Shanahan...expect the unexpected.

We'll know in about 4 months...

It still doesn't work.

Lets say we gave these guys some type of point system.

Plummer would get an 85.

Cutler is a hot shot rookie, but he is a rookie, so I'm only going to give him a 65.

You say that he's better than Griese when Griese entered his second year. Okay, I'll give you that just for the sake of argument. So I'm going to give Griese a 60.

Brister had been a backup for years, and wasn't fit to be the starter. I'm going to give him a 55.

So it's Plummer 85, Brister 55.
Cutler 65, Griese 60.

Plummer-way better than Brister.
Cutler- slightly better than Griese.

The gap between Plummer and Brister is so huge that it throws your entire theory off.

Still doesn't work. Keep trying.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Olandis Gary ran for 1159 yards in Davis' stead....so the Davis injury is a cop out.
David ran for 2008 the year before...hardly a trade off. I don't get the "cop out" thing...obviously if you remove Elway AND Davis, you're going to take a big drop...which they did. That seems like a pretty understandable reason for not repeating a 3rd time...something nobody else had ever done anyway.
The second question was what if your scenario of Jay starting in place of Jake is wrong...what if Mike opens up competition and Jake just plain beats him out the next 2-3 years like Morton did all-comers between '78-'82?
That's not going to happen. They didn't draft this kid to sit on the bench and Shanny, if he doens't start him straight out of the box, will almost surely do so by his second year. The Morton comparison is hardly relevant. Morton wasn't fighting off a first round draft choice the team to be the next QB. He beat out Noriss Weese, Craig Penrose, Matt Robinson, Jeff Knapple and Steve Deberg. Not exactly a list of NFL luminaries there...LOL
BTW...the Griese era lasted 4 seasons....wanna go thru that kind of pain again, be my guest...start Cutler over a Pro Bowler who has led us to the playoffs in 3 consecutive seasons including last year's AFC title bout.
You keep referencing Plummer as a pro bowler. Why? Jake was a 2nd alternate when both Carson Palmer and Drew Brees got hurt, and in fact he didn't go either, since he also was hurt and McNair went in his place. Second, pro bowl quarterbacks don't have to be held in check by their coach and kept under wraps to avoid costly mistakes. Everyone knows our offense is severely limited in terms of our ability to stretch the field vertically since Jay doesn't go deep well. I don't get the comparison to Griese lasting four years either...he was a 3rd rounder who plainly didn't have the arm or talent this kid has. No way Shanny lets him sit on the bench for 4 years...and then walk away to play somewhere else. Jake's going to be 33 in 2007...the most likely time when Cutler starts. Shanny knows this kid is the future...which might be coming sooner than we realize.

[Jason in LA]

Bottom line: there is precedent for Shanahan going with a young unproven guy over a veteran, even coming off a successful season...

With Shanahan...expect the unexpected.

We'll know in about 4 months...

Are you trying to say that Brister was coming off of a successful '98 season? You do remember that Elway was the QB that year.

I hope you are not comparing the '98 Brister with last year's Plummer. That would be silly.

"We'll know in about 4 months"

We know now. Why can't you understand that? There is no question on who the starter will be.

[ScottXray]

IF we have another year without major injuries and Jake is healthy this will be Jakes team to QB. ALL year.

It is good that Shanny is looking ahead and I like the fact he pulled the trigger on the frachise QB OTF this year...it was SMART.

But, other than the surprise switch to SOB back in 99, Shanny has NEVER liked to screw with his Starters. (QBS only).....I don't remember him EVER pullling a QB during a game except for injury....He just doesn't like to hurt anyones confidence to that extent...especially when his back up is really not as good and he has to give it back to the starter the next week. Of course with Kubes gone maybe his temper might factor in more. He hates DUMB plays.

Jake will start this year...and Next if he plays great and doesn't cost the team. If his play costs games or he stinks up the playoffs with the supposed receiving weapons we got now, then Cutler had better get ready to start in 07 and Jake be ready for a pay cut. If Jake wins the SB then Cutler sits another year. Or More. A lot od IFs and BUTs there.:sunshine:



.

[Jason in LA]

but I'm just trying to examine how Shanahan thought the last time around when faced with something similiar.



It's not a similar situation. Why can't you understand that? How is Plummer similar to Brister? It's like night and day. I'd say the comparision is insulting to Plummer.

[Jason in LA]

You keep referencing Plummer as a pro bowler. Why? Jake was a 2nd alternate when both Carson Palmer and Drew Brees got hurt, and in fact he didn't go either, since he also was hurt and McNair went in his place. Second, pro bowl quarterbacks don't have to be held in check by their coach and kept under wraps to avoid costly mistakes. Everyone knows our offense is severely limited in terms of our ability to stretch the field vertically since Jay doesn't go deep well. I don't get the comparison to Griese lasting four years either...he was a 3rd rounder who plainly didn't have the arm or talent this kid has. No way Shanny lets him sit on the bench for 4 years...and then walk away to play somewhere else. Jake's going to be 33 in 2007...the most likely time when Cutler starts. Shanny knows this kid is the future...which might be coming sooner than we realize.

Even if you don't want to give Jake the credit that he deserves, you can't put him all the way down there with Brister. That's highly insulting.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Actually I would like to have Cutler learn on the bench for 2 full years, although 1 isnt bad. I just want to make sure he has every oppurtunty to fully absorb the offense. It's been said numerous times that it takes 3 years for a QB to fully understand the various WCO variants in the league. The worst thing for fans to do....EVEN if Plummer is struggling is to call for Cutler. The whole instant gratification thing is very counterproductive. Just watch some of those tapes, Cutler is incredibly gifted, and thus it would be a monumental error to throw him in before he has had a substantial amount of study and observation of the offense. Even if Plummer is playing flat out average, I would keep him in. Cutler's development is more important than any one season. He has the chance to be a true superstar, lets not rush anything. I want to be really conservative here with him.
I'm not calling for Cutler to start. I'd prefer he not start till his 2nd year. I'm only looking at what happened in the past, and I see some things that are similiar in these two sets of circumstances.

Having said that, I think Cutler may be more mature than the average rookie. He's not been in the best situation he could be in like Leinert was, surrounded by great talent and protected by a terrific offensive line. To the contrary, this kid's been accustomed to having someone in his face on almost every play at Vandy. One of the things they liked about him was his toughness in the face of adversity. I could see Shanny taking this into consideration and deciding he would put him in early.

[maven]

Actually I would like to have Cutler learn on the bench for 2 full years, although 1 isnt bad. I just want to make sure he has every oppurtunty to fully absorb the offense. It's been said numerous times that it takes 3 years for a QB to fully understand the various WCO variants in the league. The worst thing for fans to do....EVEN if Plummer is struggling is to call for Cutler. The whole instant gratification thing is very counterproductive. Just watch some of those tapes, Cutler is incredibly gifted, and thus it would be a monumental error to throw him in before he has had a substantial amount of study and observation of the offense. Even if Plummer is playing flat out average, I would keep him in. Cutler's development is more important than any one season. He has the chance to be a true superstar, lets not rush anything. I want to be really conservative here with him.

Two years? Won't happen. At some point in the upcoming season the Broncos will insert Cutler. After this season Jake has 0 guaranteed money. Cutler here we come. Get used to it people. Cutler is the future. Plummer is playing on a one year contract. If he underperforms in any way, Cutler will be inserted. I know the team came off of an AFC Championship, but this is a new year & if there's a chance Cutler will play he will. Plummer is gone after this season.

[maven]

I will make this point once again.

JAKE PLUMMER has 0000000000.00000000000 in guaranteed money in 2007.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Are you trying to say that Brister was coming off of a successful '98 season? You do remember that Elway was the QB that year.

I hope you are not comparing the '98 Brister with last year's Plummer. That would be silly.
I'm talking about their season, not Brister...the theory being that a coach who knows he has no chance to win will go with a rookie, while a team coming off back to back titles still thinks it has a chance to compete. That said...don't forget that Elway was hurt for several games and Brister started...I think 4 in a row while John was out.
We know now. Why can't you understand that? There is no question on who the starter will be.
Go back and read the posts on this board where people mocked the seemingly absurd notion that Shanny would pick a QB in this draft when we had so many more immediate needs.

[BroncoFanDoug]

Gimme a break.

I've actually been a Plummer supporter throughout his career here in Denver...search and you'll see; and I would rather see him start next year than Cutler, because I fear the rookie QB getting thrown to the wolves thing...but I'm just trying to examine how Shanahan thought the last time around when faced with something similiar.

I seem to remember a lot of Bronco fans, most in fact...were highly critical of Shanahan when he decided to go with Griese. How many people thought that would happen either? I don't remember anyone thinking Griese would or should be the starter. We were poised for a 3rd run and most people figured Griese wasn't ready. Shanahan picked talent over experience, and the audition was basically the same as it will be this time around, camp and the preseason games. I don't think Griese's career as the clipboard caddy had anything to do with it.

I've got to agree with footsteps. In his starting premise he never said he thought Cutler should start or even was likely to start. Just that it was not out of the question. I agree. Cutler could end up going through incredible improvement very quickly, could have a killer pre-season, and Jake could be so so. And Plummer could be making noise and piss Shanny off and... Heck, I didn't think Lelie would become such a whiner. It is not impossible.

I am a big Jake fan (although realistic), and I hope I become a big Cutler fan, and footsteps put out an interesting scenario. All the year to year comparisons are not really the point.

Even without injury, does anyone think it is JUST NOT POSSIBLE that Cutler could start? I think unlikely, but not impossible.

[footstepsfrom#27]

It's not a similar situation. Why can't you understand that? How is Plummer similar to Brister? It's like night and day. I'd say the comparision is insulting to Plummer.
I keep making this point but you're not getting it. It's not about how good Plummer is vs Brister IMO. I agree that he is, but if Cutler is also much better than Griese, then the difference between Brister and Griese in '99 is probably roughly similiar to the difference between Plummer and Cutler at the present.

[maven]

I am a big Jake fan (although realistic), and I hope I become a big Cutler fan, and footsteps put out an interesting scenario. All the year to year comparisons are not really the point.

Even without injury, does anyone think it is JUST NOT POSSIBLE that Cutler could start? I think unlikely, but not impossible.

You will be a huge Cutler fan for better or worse. Jake is playing on a 1 year contract.

[Jason in LA]

I keep making this point but you're not getting it. It's not about how good Plummer is vs Brister IMO. I agree that he is, but if Cutler is also much better than Griese, then the difference between Brister and Griese in '99 is probably roughly similiar to the difference between Plummer and Cutler at the present.

The thing is Cutler isn't way better than Griese like you are trying to make him out to be. We could even make an argument that Griese entering his second year was better, because he had one full year of being in the system under his belt.

I said I'd give you Cutler just for the sake of the argument. But not by much. It's silly to think that Cutler would be way better when he's never even seen the playbook. Griese had an entire year in the offense.

If there is any gap between the two QBs, it isn't much.

There is a huge gap between Plummer and Brister. There is no arguing that.

[Jason in LA]

I keep making this point but you're not getting it. It's not about how good Plummer is vs Brister IMO. I agree that he is, but if Cutler is also much better than Griese, then the difference between Brister and Griese in '99 is probably roughly similiar to the difference between Plummer and Cutler at the present.

I'm getting it. I just think it's a theory that doesn't work at all.

Are you saying that the gap between Griese and Cutler is comparible to the gap between Plummer and Brister?

That would be an insane statement to make. And like I've said a few times, highly insulting.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Even if you don't want to give Jake the credit that he deserves, you can't put him all the way down there with Brister. That's highly insulting.
I've been giving Jake credit all along...ever since he got here.

I'm not putting him with Brister either...I'm saying that the difference between the threat he faces and the threat faced by Brister is roughly the same. It's the same because while Plummer is a better QB than Brister...he's also competing against tougher competition in Cutler than Brister faced. Hence, since the threat is roughly equal, so is the possibility we see Shanahan make a similiar decision to the one he made in '99.

[BroncoFanDoug]

You will be a huge Cutler fan for better or worse. Jake is playing on a 1 year contract.

I am such a Bronco homer that if/when he starts, I will be a fan. I am very syched on getting Cutler even though I like Jake. We have not had a true franchise QB here since Elway.

[Jason in LA]

I've been giving Jake credit all along...ever since he got here.

I'm not putting him with Brister either...I'm saying that the difference between the threat he faces and the threat faced by Brister is roughly the same. It's the same because while Plummer is a better QB than Brister...he's also competing against tougher competition in Cutler than Brister faced. Hence, since the threat is roughly equal, so is the possibility we see Shanahan make a similiar decision to the one he made in '99.

But it's not the same. It's not close to being the same. How is it?

Griese and Cutler are comparible. They are in the same ball park. Plummer and Brister aren't comparible. They aren't in the same ball park. That's what screws up your argument.

[Jason in LA]

I'm talking about their season, not Brister...the theory being that a coach who knows he has no chance to win will go with a rookie, while a team coming off back to back titles still thinks it has a chance to compete. That said...don't forget that Elway was hurt for several games and Brister started...I think 4 in a row while John was out.

Go back and read the posts on this board where people mocked the seemingly absurd notion that Shanny would pick a QB in this draft when we had so many more immediate needs.

Are you saying that the '06 Broncos don't have much of a chance to win? Even though they are bringing back damn near the same roster?

See, your theory falls apart because the Broncos can win with Plummer. 13-3, and a trip to the AFC Title game proves that they can win with Plummer.

They wouldn't have had much of a chance to win with Brister.

That's where the difference is, and is why your argument doesn't work.

[Hulamau]

[QUOTE=SoCalBronco]Actually I would like to have Cutler learn on the bench for 2 full years, although 1 isnt bad. I just want to make sure he has every oppurtunty to fully absorb the offense. It's been said numerous times that it takes 3 years for a QB to fully understand the various WCO variants in the league. The worst thing for fans to do....EVEN if Plummer is struggling is to call for Cutler. The whole instant gratification thing is very counterproductive. Just watch some of those tapes, Cutler is incredibly gifted, and thus it would be a monumental error to throw him in before he has had a substantial amount of study and observation of the offense. Even if Plummer is playing flat out average, I would keep him in. Cutler's development is more important than any one season. He has the chance to be a true superstar, lets not rush anything. I want to be really conservative here with him.[/QUOTE

I'm with you SoCAL, two years would be ideal, but one is probably more realistic, all things considered.

And remember Elwyay was thrown to the Lions right away and after a very shaky start was playing some great ball by seasons end and Big Ben did more than OK behind a very good team.

Many of the 1st round QBs that get scarred and stunted like Carr and Harrington have such lousy teams that they got killed every other play.

Cutler is USED to getting killed on a terrible team against much better competition so that likely makes him better prepared for the tranistion.

Nevertheless, a solid year holding the clipboard with maybe getting in for a few close-up quarters when w hopefully have 21 point leads could be perfect preparation for him to take over in '07, if the finances dictate an end to Jakes era here.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I'm getting it. I just think it's a theory that doesn't work at all.

Are you saying that the gap between Griese and Cutler is comparible to the gap between Plummer and Brister?

That would be an insane statement to make. And like I've said a few times, highly insulting.
No...that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the gap between Griese and Brister is probably similiar to the gap between Cutler and Jake. Here's why: I agree that Jake is a much better QB than either Griese or Brister. But he is also facing a much tougher test competition-wise. If we look at Brister as the rightfull starter for '99 since he'd been there and knew the system better than Griese, plus he'd played and Griese hadn't...then Griese winning the job was an upset. Why did Griese win it? He won becaus Shanny chose to go with the guy he thought had the most talent rather than the guy with the most experience.

In the current situation, Jake has the experience and knows the system. But Cutler has the edge in raw talent, especially his arm. So Jake is to Cutler what Brister was to Griese...an "incumbant" trying to fight off a challenge. I get it that Plummer is better...but he's also facing a better competitor than Brister faced.

The thing I find most intriguing in this whole thing is that Shanny is basically facing the same situation he faced before. The season's are comparable; in the '99 season we were 2 time defending champs itching to make it 3, and in 2006 we will be looking return to the Superbowl again after getting to the AFC title game.

I don't think anyone expected Shanny to name Griese the starter because even though Brister wasn't a career starter, he was a solid experienced guy who knew the offense. Remember than Griese was not a number one pick...just another 3rd rounder with no NFL experience. Cutler clearly presents a much tougher challenge than Griese did for Brister.

People are acting like it's unheard of for rookie QB's to ever start, or if they do they're automatically going to be ruined. Among the NFL QB's who have started their rookie years and gone on to be successful are Elway, Marino, Aikman, Bledsoe, Carr, Leftwhich, both Peyton and Eli Manning, McNabb, Orton, Roethlisberger...the list goes on...even Plummer started his rookie year. I would like to see Jake start in 2006, but it will not suprise me if Shanny goes to Cutler, if not from the beginning, then at some point during the year.

[Kaylore]

There are only three reasons Cutler would ever start this year. One is total fantasy, one is really good, and the other would really suck.

1. Injured Jake. This is never good but if we almost beat the Patriots with Danny Kannell, we probably could at least keep it close if it was toward the end of the season and Cutler had absorbed more of the playbook.

2. He outperforms Jake in camp - Yeah right.

3. We wrap up the season and he gets to start the last game or two. This would be nice because again, its toward the end of the season so Cutler will have learned some and if its a throw away game against a team that is still in the playoff hunt, it would give Cutler a chance to play the game at full speed.

Beyond those three, you will not see Cutler do much beyond preseason.

[SactownOrangeSunday]

To be honest, I haven't even taken the time to think much about Cutler. I am still reeling over the good fortune of us getting Stanley McClover in the 7th round. ;)


Who is that, information is needed please

[Taco John]

There are only three reasons Cutler would ever start this year. One is total fantasy, one is really good, and the other would really suck.

1. Injured Jake. This is never good but if we almost beat the Patriots with Danny Kannell, we probably could at least keep it close if it was toward the end of the season and Cutler had absorbed more of the playbook.

2. He outperforms Jake in camp - Yeah right.

3. We wrap up the season and he gets to start the last game or two. This would be nice because again, its toward the end of the season so Cutler will have learned some and if its a throw away game against a team that is still in the playoff hunt, it would give Cutler a chance to play the game at full speed.

Beyond those three, you will not see Cutler do much beyond preseason.

Just to comment...

In scenario #3, that would mean that Jake would be missing no less than two weeks of football. Maybe 3.

No thanks. I'm for giving a false bye to starters at the end of seasons, like we did with Greenbay a few years ago, but more than one week, and I think you start playing with fire...

[BroncoBuff]

Even without injury, does anyone think it is JUST NOT POSSIBLE that Cutler could start? I think unlikely, but not impossible.

Agreed. The same reasons why Cutler could consistently do "the impossible" with lowly, lowly Vanderbilt when going up against monster defenses at Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, LSU and Auburn .... is the reason why he could start for us this year. He's used to dealing with the "speed of the game" on terms set by Top 25 opposition almost every week, and he managed to utilize the lesser talent around him to pull off some amazing 4th quarter comebacks... I'm guessing he won't start until '07, but ....

... lest we forget ...

... Just a few years ago we were coming off a 13-plus win season, and Shanny had a knucklehead starter who couldn't handle the whole playbook. On the eve of the regular season, he promoted a rookie QB into the starting lineup - shocking the world. Jake may not be Bubby, and Cutler is certainly not Griese, but I think it shows that Shanny won't hesitate to make the move.

[watermock]

To be honest, I haven't even taken the time to think much about Cutler. I am still reeling over the good fortune of us getting Stanley McClover in the 7th round. ;)

That was almost criminal.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I think in considering this question, it's a good idea to also consider WHO Mike Shanahan is...

Shanahan is a guy who is a major risk taker. If this guy were a gambler he'd be laying the mortgage on a 40-1 longshot at the track. We see it every year in the draft especially...medical problem guys, off the field issues, guys we draft that leave us all scratching our heads...saying...WHO? This dude marches to the beat of a different drummer. Observe:

Shanahan is the guy who goes against conventional wisdom to build a running game around small offensive linemen and backs he digs off the scrap heap or out of the 5th round bargain bin and leads the NFL in rushing with theses guys.

Shanahan is the guy who decided to give Jake Plummer the keys to the bus when nobody else wanted the dude, and he did with Plummer what everyone said could not be done.

Shanahan is the guy who started a guy with 3 NFL passes to his name coming off back to back Superbowl championships and looking to win a 3rd.

Shanahan is the guy who drafted Maurice Clarrett.

Shanahan is the guy who traded a back to back 1500 yard rusher for a defensive back.

Shanahan is the guy who almost every year thumbs his nose at the rest of the NFL and takes guys in the draft off his own board that aren't on anyone elses.

Shanahan is the guy who shunned immediate help in the last draft for a team perched on the brink of a Superbowl to trade up and get a QB.

Looking back over the years he's been here, when has Mike EVER done what we expect him to? When has he ever done what seems logical? The only thing you can really count on with Shanny is...

Change.

[Ballhawk]

I will make this point once again.

JAKE PLUMMER has 0000000000.00000000000 in guaranteed money in 2007.

Herc said we would stil take a cap hit for 4 mil if he is cut in 2007 and 2 mil in 2008.

[Kaylore]

Just to comment...

In scenario #3, that would mean that Jake would be missing no less than two weeks of football. Maybe 3.

No thanks. I'm for giving a false bye to starters at the end of seasons, like we did with Greenbay a few years ago, but more than one week, and I think you start playing with fire...
I guess I can type out what we all already know. Everyone knows how Shanahan is. He always plays his starters in those games at least one quarter. Two gimmes at the end of the season would require a 14-2 season, which I think would be very hard to do anyway. So it would likely be only one game, and not the whole time.

[BroncoMan4ever]

Shannahan drafted Cutler with the knowledge that he is going to become a great player but he also knows that right now he is raw and not ready to go. Shannahan did this with the knowledge that Cutler could watch and learn from Plummer who has a similar style of play. Also in the case with Brister and Miller in 99 those were both 2 burnt out old guys on there way out and hadn't started a game in like 9 seasons. Plummer is a QB who after 3 seasons in Denver has just reached his prime. He has at least another 4 years in him, however at most he plays 2 more in Denver.
But he will be the starter and Cutler will back him up this year.

[broncohaven]

Starting Cutler would be the worst thing that we could do for his development. He's coming from a program that was overmatched nearly every week in the SEC. We've all seen him throwing off his back foot, and showing less than ideal form. Giving him at least a year will allow him to work on some of the bad habits he developed without the pressure of trying to win football games. Look, we all know that you don't take a 1st round QB if you don't plan on him being the franchise guy, but if Cutler were thrown to the wolves as a rookie it would probably set his development a couple of years.

Cutler has plenty to learn, and plenty to work on. Plummer is a perfect example of what happens when you give a rookie too much too soon. He had to rely on improvisation instead of being a real quarterback, and he developed habits that he still battles today. Contrast that with Carson Palmer who didn't throw a pass in a real game as a rookie despite playing on a bad football team, but was allowed to develop. He threw for almost 3,000 yards as a rookie and developed quickly into one of the best QBs in the league.

Cutler has all of Palmer's skills and then some, and he should be brought along the learning curve in the same way Palmer was. If we do that I think we'll have the best QB we've had in Denver since The Duke, but if we force the issue we could get less than what we bargained for.

[Ballhawk]

Starting Cutler would be the worst thing that we could do for his development. He's coming from a program that was overmatched nearly every week in the SEC. We've all seen him throwing off his back foot, and showing less than ideal form. Giving him at least a year will allow him to work on some of the bad habits he developed without the pressure of trying to win football games. Look, we all know that you don't take a 1st round QB if you don't plan on him being the franchise guy, but if Cutler were thrown to the wolves as a rookie it would probably set his development a couple of years.

Cutler has plenty to learn, and plenty to work on. Plummer is a perfect example of what happens when you give a rookie too much too soon. He had to rely on improvisation instead of being a real quarterback, and he developed habits that he still battles today. Contrast that with Carson Palmer who didn't throw a pass in a real game as a rookie despite playing on a bad football team, but was allowed to develop. He threw for almost 3,000 yards as a rookie and developed quickly into one of the best QBs in the league.

Cutler has all of Palmer's skills and then some, and he should be brought along the learning curve in the same way Palmer was. If we do that I think we'll have the best QB we've had in Denver since The Duke, but if we force the issue we could get less than what we bargained for.

I agree that Cutler should not start 2006 but not for your reasons. Cutler does not have a problem with throwing off his back foot. This has been thrown out there because the scouts need to knock the guy for something. Watch the games and you will see a QB that when given a pocket steps up and shows excellent mechanics all around. You would think that a QB that has someone in his face 80% of the time would show a tendency to rush a play when he does get time. He does not do that. You would think he would have happy feet, but does not.

I also believe that playing at Vandy will help him to adapt to the speed of the NFL quicker than most QBs that come out. Do you realize that his TE ran a 5.17 40 and his WR a 4.71? Im guessing most of the defenders ran faster than his targets, yet he completed 60% of his passes.

I just want him to take the time to bond with his teamates and learn the playbook so his natural abilities show up on Sundays. Jake is a tremendous leader and very well liked locker room guy. You do not yank the job away from a guy like that. Cutler will need time to show his teammates that he deserves the job and that will take a year at the minimum.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Shannahan drafted Cutler with the knowledge that he is going to become a great player but he also knows that right now he is raw and not ready to go. Shannahan did this with the knowledge that Cutler could watch and learn from Plummer who has a similar style of play. Also in the case with Brister and Miller in 99 those were both 2 burnt out old guys on there way out and hadn't started a game in like 9 seasons. Plummer is a QB who after 3 seasons in Denver has just reached his prime. He has at least another 4 years in him, however at most he plays 2 more in Denver.
But he will be the starter and Cutler will back him up this year.
First of all, we might need to rethink this idea that we want Cutler learning by watching Plummer. That might not be a good thing given that Jake himself is still trying to learn to do what Shanny wants him to. Do we really want Cutler learning from Jake? That's doubtful.

Second, Brister was 2 years younger than Elway was when he retired in '98 (36) and he started 4 games for Denver in '98 when Elway was hurt. He started 4 for the Jets in '95, 2 for the Eagles in '94 and 8 in '93. All this is not really relevant however. The point is that Denver had, in Shanahan's mind, the opportunity to win again that year...a year in which they were coming off two back to back Superbowl wins. About 99 out of 100 coaches in the NFL would take a proven and experienced backup QB with marginal talent over a guy who was a clipboard caddy and nothing more unless they knew they were in a rebuilding year anyway. How many would go to war hoping to bring home an unprecedented 3rd consecutive Superbowl title with a QB with zero experience. Griese had 3 passes attempted in the NFL when Shanny started him that year.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Starting Cutler would be the worst thing that we could do for his development. He's coming from a program that was overmatched nearly every week in the SEC. We've all seen him throwing off his back foot, and showing less than ideal form. Giving him at least a year will allow him to work on some of the bad habits he developed without the pressure of trying to win football games. Look, we all know that you don't take a 1st round QB if you don't plan on him being the franchise guy, but if Cutler were thrown to the wolves as a rookie it would probably set his development a couple of years.
Ordinarily I would agree with you on this. However, consider the fact that Denver's situation is rather unique. It's unique because Denver has already been winning with an offense that is very basic because it's been scaled down for Plummer to handle it. Shanahan is not asking Jake to win games, but just to drive the bus. Most rookie QB's who start are on bad teams and they're forced to try to do things they can't. That's not the case here. Pittsburgh proved with Roethlisberger what could happen when you take a talented rookie and let him hand off the ball a lot and protect him in the offense so he's not exposed to having to try to be the guy who wins the game. If anything, I think it's pretty likely that if he started his rookie year, Cutler would face a lot less adversity in Denver than he did in Vanderbilt. Also, consider the fact that Denver's offense has more weapons now than it did last season when Jake had nobody to consistently get open other than Rod. Walker alone will help and the new TE might also.

This is all something I think Shanny might be mulling over in his mind. Again...consider the parallels to '99...Griese was also asked to be a caretaker. Look at the weapons he had...to start off the year he had Davis coming off his 2000 yard season, plus two 1000 yard receivers in Eddie and a young Rod Smith...Sharp was still effective...all in all a similiar situation to what we now see...a young QB asked to be a caretaker QB for an offense with multiple weapons and the possibility of a playoff run.

If Shanny did this once, it's possible he does it twice.

[Pat Bowlen]

I'm guessing he won't start until '07, but ....

... lest we forget ...

... Just a few years ago we were coming off a 13-plus win season, and Shanny had a knucklehead starter who couldn't handle the whole playbook. On the eve of the regular season, he promoted a rookie QB into the starting lineup - shocking the world. Jake may not be Bubby, and Cutler is certainly not Griese, but I think it shows that Shanny won't hesitate to make the move.
Did you read this thread before you posted in it?

[virginia_bronco]

I bet Plummer doesn't even think about throwing one pass left handed in '06...

Josh

[Jason in LA]

No...that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the gap between Griese and Brister is probably similiar to the gap between Cutler and Jake. Here's why: I agree that Jake is a much better QB than either Griese or Brister. But he is also facing a much tougher test competition-wise. If we look at Brister as the rightfull starter for '99 since he'd been there and knew the system better than Griese, plus he'd played and Griese hadn't...then Griese winning the job was an upset. Why did Griese win it? He won becaus Shanny chose to go with the guy he thought had the most talent rather than the guy with the most experience.

In the current situation, Jake has the experience and knows the system. But Cutler has the edge in raw talent, especially his arm. So Jake is to Cutler what Brister was to Griese...an "incumbant" trying to fight off a challenge. I get it that Plummer is better...but he's also facing a better competitor than Brister faced.

The thing I find most intriguing in this whole thing is that Shanny is basically facing the same situation he faced before. The season's are comparable; in the '99 season we were 2 time defending champs itching to make it 3, and in 2006 we will be looking return to the Superbowl again after getting to the AFC title game.

I don't think anyone expected Shanny to name Griese the starter because even though Brister wasn't a career starter, he was a solid experienced guy who knew the offense. Remember than Griese was not a number one pick...just another 3rd rounder with no NFL experience. Cutler clearly presents a much tougher challenge than Griese did for Brister.

People are acting like it's unheard of for rookie QB's to ever start, or if they do they're automatically going to be ruined. Among the NFL QB's who have started their rookie years and gone on to be successful are Elway, Marino, Aikman, Bledsoe, Carr, Leftwhich, both Peyton and Eli Manning, McNabb, Orton, Roethlisberger...the list goes on...even Plummer started his rookie year. I would like to see Jake start in 2006, but it will not suprise me if Shanny goes to Cutler, if not from the beginning, then at some point during the year.

The gap between Brister and Griese is not similar to the gap between Plummer and Cutler. It's not even close.

Griese and Brister were pretty close to each other. I'd even say that Griese was better than Brister, that's why he got the job. Even if you want to make the argument that Brister was better, it wasn't by much.

Are you going to tell us that Cutler, who hasn't played a down in the NFL, is nearly as good, or even better than Plummer. From what I'm reading, that's what you are saying. Because that's where Brister and Griese were, and you are saying that Plummer and Cutler are similar. Are you going to tell us that Cutler, as a rookie, can be a top 10 QB, lead the team to a division title, and make the Pro Bowl? Even if you don't want to give Plummer the credit of a Pro Bowl QB (which you haven't) you have to at least admit that he's one of the top QBs in the league.

If you think that Cutler can be on that levl this year, dude, you are nuts.

On the last page I used a point system. I think I gave each player a fair amount of points. I gave Plummer an 85, Cutler a 65, Griese (after his second training camp) a 60, and Brister a 55. You can even down grade Griese if you want. Give him a 55, or even a 50.

Going by these points, the difference between Plummer and Cutler is 30 points. The difference between Griese and Brister is 5 points in either direction. Those gaps are not similar. Not even close.

The only way your argument would work is if Cutler was a Dan Marino (as a rookie) type QB. I like what I see from Cutler, but he's not on that level. You can't expect any rookie QB to be on that level.

[BroncoFanDoug]

There are only three reasons Cutler would ever start this year. One is total fantasy, one is really good, and the other would really suck.

1. Injured Jake. This is never good but if we almost beat the Patriots with Danny Kannell, we probably could at least keep it close if it was toward the end of the season and Cutler had absorbed more of the playbook.

2. He outperforms Jake in camp - Yeah right.

3. We wrap up the season and he gets to start the last game or two. This would be nice because again, its toward the end of the season so Cutler will have learned some and if its a throw away game against a team that is still in the playoff hunt, it would give Cutler a chance to play the game at full speed.

Beyond those three, you will not see Cutler do much beyond preseason.

I agree with the options. I think 2 is unlikely but not impossible.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The gap between Brister and Griese is not similar to the gap between Plummer and Cutler. It's not even close.

Griese and Brister were pretty close to each other. I'd even say that Griese was better than Brister, that's why he got the job. Even if you want to make the argument that Brister was better, it wasn't by much.

Are you going to tell us that Cutler, who hasn't played a down in the NFL, is nearly as good, or even better than Plummer. From what I'm reading, that's what you are saying. Because that's where Brister and Griese were, and you are saying that Plummer and Cutler are similar. Are you going to tell us that Cutler, as a rookie, can be a top 10 QB, lead the team to a division title, and make the Pro Bowl? Even if you don't want to give Plummer the credit of a Pro Bowl QB (which you haven't) you have to at least admit that he's one of the top QBs in the league.

If you think that Cutler can be on that levl this year, dude, you are nuts.

On the last page I used a point system. I think I gave each player a fair amount of points. I gave Plummer an 85, Cutler a 65, Griese (after his second training camp) a 60, and Brister a 55. You can even down grade Griese if you want. Give him a 55, or even a 50.

Going by these points, the difference between Plummer and Cutler is 30 points. The difference between Griese and Brister is 5 points in either direction. Those gaps are not similar. Not even close.

The only way your argument would work is if Cutler was a Dan Marino (as a rookie) type QB. I like what I see from Cutler, but he's not on that level. You can't expect any rookie QB to be on that level.
Interesting analysis, but entirely based on subjective criteria that don't neccesarily add up. I see the obvious flaw in your reasonng despite your arbitray point system.

Jake Plummer is not a pro bowl quarterback. He also is not a top 10 quarterback. If he were, we'd be talking about Broderick Bunkley or Haoli Ngata instead of Cutler on this board. Here are 10 NFL quarterbacks that most people would take over Jake:

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Dante Culpepper
4. Brett Favre
5. Eli Manning
6. Steve McNair
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Carson Palmer
10. Ben Roethlisberger

Here are 7 more that are probably close enough to Jake that it's difficult to distinguish whether Jake is better than them or not.

1. Jake Dehlomme
2. Byron Leftwhich
3. Trent Green
4. Chad Pennington
5. Kurt Warner
6. Drew Bledsoe

That's 16 QB's that are either clearlly better than Jake or else a credible argument could be made for them being at least as good even if it's not clear cut. Thus, Jake falls IMO...somewhere in the middle of the pack; an average QB who has worked hard to achieve success in a system that's designed exclusively for him.

I have great respect and appreciation for what Jake has done in Denver in the last three years. It's clear he's made major inroads to changing the bad habbits he picked up in Arizona. However, this progress has not come without a price. If Jake were truly a pro bowl caliber or top 10 QB, Mike Shanahan would not have to reign in his offense to protect Jake from making mistakes. Some of the QB's on the list above are near the end of the line and not as good as they once were, and some are to young to have built much of a track record, but none of the players on either list have to have their coach design an offense that holds them in check so they won't make mistakes.

Plummer is a good fit for Denver's offense and he's achieved more success than most people thought he would, but he comes with obvious dissadvantages. Jake cannot throw deep with consistency or accuracy because he has limited arm strength. He is not a particularly accurate passer, and he has not shown the ability to lead this offense from behind with regularity. To win the 14 games we got last year, Denver had to get ahead and stay ahead by using their running game and a defense that caused lots of turnovers. Jake is not the kind of QB that has the raw physical ability to simply take over a game and win it, nor has he consistently shown enough mental toughness to be counted on to come through in the clutch when the team is trailing and the game is on the line. Plummer is best when he's a system QB that plays within himself and drives the bus instead of trying to be the one who takes the team on his shoulders and wills them to a win.

So while you may see Brister and Griese as inferior to Jake, Plummer's career has really only come of age in the last three years, and much of the credit for Jake's turnaround has to do with the way he's protected in this offense. In the current offense, Plummer is probably not doing much more than a rookie QB would be asked to do with the same system. All this leads me to believe that the possibility exists that Shanahan may decide he wants to begin Cutler's learning process sooner rather than later. He's already shown a willingness to play a QB with no experience, even if he thinks he has a chance to compete for a championship. I'm merely suggesting that he may do so again. For that reason, I think there's a reasonable chance we see Jay starting sometiime before the end of next season.

We're not going to convince each other...obviously....agree to dissagree I guess...

[Jason in LA]

You still didn't address any of my point about the gap between Plummer and Cutler vs the gap between Brister and Griese. The gaps are nowhere near the same.

My points do add up. Your points haven't added up at any point in this thread. How is my reasoning flawed?

Jake is not a top 10 QB? In '03 he was the fifth highest rated QB. In '05 he was the seventh highest rated QB.

Your list is flawed, just like your logic. I'd take Favre off that list. He's nowhere near a top 10 QB...unless you are arguing for top 10 of all time.

Steve McNair??? That's a joke...right? He's way past his prime, and isn't amoung the top QBs. He was behind Plummer in the Pro Bowl voting.

On your list of the next 6, the only one that compares to Plummer is Dehlomme. Plummer is better than all those other guys.

So take Farve and McNair out of the top ten, and add Plummer and Dehlomme. If Cutler ends up as the starter, he won't make that list.

It's funny how you keep saying that you support Plummer. And you just said that you respect him. But you've dissed him every chance you've gotten. You've dissed him in a "friendly" way. A diss is a diss. You'll say "I respect him, but...", then you'll make a bunch of negative points about him, in a friendly way.

Your motives are clear. You don't like Plummer, and you like Cutler. So you've convinced yourself that this is a similar situation as it was back in '99. But you have yet to prove that it's a similar situation. I feel that I've more than proved that it's a very different situation.

You are right, I'm not going to convince you. You don't like Plummer, and you like Cutler, so you've made your points and just stuck your head in the sand.

I'll just say, enjoy watching Plummer lead the Broncos to the playoffs for a fourth year in a row, and maybe for a 5th year in a row. Then you'll get to see your boy Cutler.

[Jason in LA]

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Dante Culpepper
4. Brett Favre
5. Eli Manning
6. Steve McNair
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Carson Palmer
10. Ben Roethlisberger

Here are 7 more that are probably close enough to Jake that it's difficult to distinguish whether Jake is better than them or not.

1. Jake Dehlomme
2. Byron Leftwhich
3. Trent Green
4. Chad Pennington
5. Kurt Warner
6. Drew Bledsoe

That's 16 QB's that are either clearlly better than Jake or else a credible argument could be made for them being at least as good even if it's not clear cut. Thus, Jake falls IMO...somewhere in the middle of the pack; an average QB who has worked hard to achieve success in a system that's designed exclusively for him.



I had to go back to this list, because it's a complete joke. Who in their right mind would have Farve 4th, Eli Manning 5th, and McNair 6th? Man, you really don't like Plummer, and you are out of your mind. Those three being on your list pretty much kills any argument that you can make.

Then you say that Bledsoe, Warner, Pennington, and Leftwhich are as good or better than Plummer. Man, you must really not respect Plummer, even though you say that you do. I'd take Plummer in a heart beat over all those guys. Bledsoe and Warner haven't been good for years. How many teams have dumped those two? Jets fans are ready to dump Pennington...right now. What has he done over the past couple years? An argument can be made for Leftwhich, and Green. But that's it.

I don't think you are looking at this objective at all. I wonder what your stance was after the playoff losses. Were you on the "dump Jake" bandwagon?

[Ballhawk]

From the list moving down:

Cullpepper needs to drop off, ya he can pass and run but he fumbles constatly as well as throwing picks.

Farve, McNair past their prime

Eli Manning???? RU ****tin me

I dont know how good Big Ben is, he like Plummer has been protected so far.

Moving up:

Delhomme- did well even with Muhammed in Chicago

Trent Green - Like it or not he is definately top ten

[footstepsfrom#27]

You still didn't address any of my point about the gap between Plummer and Cutler vs the gap between Brister and Griese. The gaps are nowhere near the same.
Said gap only exists to the extent you think it does if one accepts that Plummer is a pro bowl caliber player, which I don't. I thought I made that pretty clear.
Jake is not a top 10 QB? In '03 he was the fifth highest rated QB. In '05 he was the seventh highest rated QB.
Ratings are not the best way to evaluate QB's in my view. Elway freqently ranked well below a lot of guys that were nowhere near his equal. Even if we accepted that ratings equate to a valid method of evaluation, Plummer's ranking is skewed by virtue of the fact that he's being protected by the offense he runs. Jake scores higher because the risk factors have been factored out of Shanny's offense as much as possible.
Your list is flawed, just like your logic. I'd take Favre off that list. He's nowhere near a top 10 QB...unless you are arguing for top 10 of all time.
Favre had a down year last year. Check him out prior to that. Jake had a down year in 2004 and Favre threw for over 4000 yards and 30 TD's with only 17 INT's...one year doesn't eliminate what you've done. Favre, incidently, is only 36...the same age Elway was when he won his first Superbowl.
Steve McNair??? That's a joke...right? He's way past his prime, and isn't amoung the top QBs. He was behind Plummer in the Pro Bowl voting.
Pro bowl voting means nothing to me. McNair also had a down year the last two years due mainly to injury and being on a bad team, but he's taken a team to the Superbowl, which Jake hasn't; and when healthy, he's still one of the better QB's
On your list of the next 6, the only one that compares to Plummer is Dehlomme. Plummer is better than all those other guys.
In your opinion maybe. How many of those players are playing in offensive systems that are specifically scaled down and limited to conservative play calling just to keep them from making mistakes? If Jake were not playing in a system that protects him, his game would drop considerably. That's why Shanny had to change his offense just for Jake.
It's funny how you keep saying that you support Plummer. And you just said that you respect him. But you've dissed him every chance you've gotten. You've dissed him in a "friendly" way. A diss is a diss. You'll say "I respect him, but...", then you'll make a bunch of negative points about him, in a friendly way.

Your motives are clear. You don't like Plummer, and you like Cutler. So you've convinced yourself that this is a similar situation as it was back in '99.
Wrong. Run a search and you'll see I've been a suporter of his from the beginnng. That doesn't mean I have to also be blind to the problems he presents for our offense. In any case, it doesn't matter whether I like him or not...it's whether Shanahan likes him or not that matters so why does it even matter? This thread is not about what I want to happen...it's about what I think might happen. I've stated that several times now.

[watermock]

It's always amusing to watch someone take an untenable position and continue to staunchly defend it. It's quite possible that BVP might even start out as the #2.

Jay needs to work some on his footwork, but I think that was primarily a function of a horrible line against SEC monsters. The kid is tough and started 4 years, so the curve shouldn't be terribly steep. Cutler is the future, Jake is now.

BTW, if you haven't watched Jake's interview on DB.com, he's all class. That guy sounds more like Shanahan all the time. He really does. He had zero problem with the pick. Talked just like Shanahan would about Lelie. Said that Denver rarely gets a pick that high with that kind of talent and you have to take it. Said he won't give up the reigns till he gets that ring tho. Ha! He has improved each year in all phases, but hit a bump in 2004. Anyway, he's taking it like a man. Lelie is acting like a spoiled brat. Whatever fair value Lelie thinks it's worth, he's going to be rather surprised what he's going to bring if traded. Teams will look at his stats and think maybe a late third, and only a few. Anyway, this thread isn't about Lelie. I wandered there because Jake is excited about Walker, and Shaeffer and wants Lelie back to have a vicious arsenal.

[Jason in LA]

It's always amusing to watch someone take an untenable position and continue to staunchly defend it. It's quite possible that BVP might even start out as the #2.



We all know the saying. When you've dug yourself into a hole, stop digging. Footsteps just won't put down the shovel.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I had to go back to this list, because it's a complete joke. Who in their right mind would have Farve 4th, Eli Manning 5th, and McNair 6th? Man, you really don't like Plummer, and you are out of your mind. Those three being on your list pretty much kills any argument that you can make.
I should have mentioned this earlier...but the list was not intended to rank these guys. I simply listed them as I thought of them rather than attempting to say this guy is #1 and this guy is #2...etc.
Then you say that Bledsoe, Warner, Pennington, and Leftwhich are as good or better than Plummer. Man, you must really not respect Plummer, even though you say that you do. I'd take Plummer in a heart beat over all those guys.
Would you also take Jake over these guys if he was not in a protected offense that is designed to keep him from opening things up? He had that two years ago and threw 20 INT's. You keep ignoring this fact. Bottom line...Plummer is the only guy on the list who isn't allowed to play with a full playbook.
Bledsoe and Warner haven't been good for years. How many teams have dumped those two? Jets fans are ready to dump Pennington...right now. What has he done over the past couple years? An argument can be made for Leftwhich, and Green. But that's it.
Bledsoe is a much better passer than Plummer is. His main problem is mobility and he's been behind O-lines that didn't give him much time to throw. Warner has been injured the last couple of years but he was only released in New York because they drafted Manning. He's 35, and since he's been with poor teams the last few years and injured part of that time, obviously he doesn't have the production. He's also not being protected by an offense that only allows him limited freedom to use the playbook. Pennington has also been a guy limited by injuries and the team he plays on being lousy...not unlike Jake's situation when he was in Phoenix. But he's shown enough talent that he falls into that category of roughly equivalent to Plummer. He may be a bit better or Jake may be a bit better, but in the end either way it's not enough on one side or the other to matter. They're both in the same general area when it comes to talent.
I don't think you are looking at this objective at all. I wonder what your stance was after the playoff losses. Were you on the "dump Jake" bandwagon?
Like I said...I've supported him the whole time. I'm only pointing out wha everyone in here already knows...that Jake is mainly the product of Shanny's system that keeps him in check and runs an offense designed to hide his weak points.

[footstepsfrom#27]

From the list moving down:

Cullpepper needs to drop off, ya he can pass and run but he fumbles constatly as well as throwing picks.

Farve, McNair past their prime
Both are still probably better than Plummer. Neither has to be protected. And despite Culpeppers fumbles, his numbers are so impressive you have to put him up there anyway. How can you remove a guy who in 2004 (injured in 2005) he thew for 4700 yards, 39 TD's and only 11 INT's to go with a 69% completion percentage?
Eli Manning???? RU ****tin me

I dont know how good Big Ben is, he like Plummer has been protected so far.
Every GM in the NFL would take Eli Manning over Jake Plummer in a heart beat. That's not even close. As for Big Ben, he was only protected his rookie year but not last year. Did you watch the Colts game? Cowler had Roethlisberger go right after the Colts through the air and attack them with a wide open offense. His shackles were taken off after his rookie year, while Plummer's are still on at age 31...no comparison there.

[footstepsfrom#27]

We all know the saying. When you've dug yourself into a hole, stop digging. Footsteps just won't put down the shovel.
It makes no difference to me whether you agree or not. The pont of the thread was to provoke discussion, which it did.

[BroncoMan4ever]

Jake Plummer is not a pro bowl quarterback. He also is not a top 10 quarterback. If he were, we'd be talking about Broderick Bunkley or Haoli Ngata instead of Cutler on this board. Here are 10 NFL quarterbacks that most people would take over Jake:

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Dante Culpepper
4. Brett Favre
5. Eli Manning
6. Steve McNair
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Carson Palmer
10. Ben Roethlisberger

Here are 7 more that are probably close enough to Jake that it's difficult to distinguish whether Jake is better than them or not.

1. Jake Dehlomme
2. Byron Leftwhich
3. Trent Green
4. Chad Pennington
5. Kurt Warner
6. Drew Bledsoe

That's 16 QB's that are either clearlly better than Jake or else a credible argument could be made for them being at least as good even if it's not clear cut. Thus, Jake falls IMO...somewhere in the middle of the pack; an average QB who has worked hard to achieve success in a system that's designed exclusively for him.



Dante Culpepper - If this was 2 or 3 years ago, i agree he is better, right now he isn't even close.

Brett Favre - If he was in his prime like he was 3 years ago, he is better, but now not there
Eli Manning - It is still too early in his career to determine if he is elite

Steve McNair - Without injury and if he was 5 years younger he is equal
Matt Hasselbeck - Nothing without Shaun Alexander, not even an equal

Donovan McNabb - Without TO doesn't put up great numbers, Equal at best
Ben Roethlisberger - Without a dominating D and win it for the BUS mentality, he is not even close to the talent of Jake

Jake Dehlomme - Descent QB, but not talented like Jake

Byron Leftwhich - Honestly, why the hell is he listed in the top 10 of QB's was someone high when they were making this list.

Trent Green - Without Priest or Larry Johnson and a great offensive line he isn't nearly as good as Jake

Chad Pennington - If this guy could ever finish a season maybe he could b allowed to be on this list

Kurt Warner - If he still played in St Louis and this was 3 years ago he could be on this list

Drew Bledsoe - Are you nuts, why don't u put Brian Griese on this list.

Plain and simple, like it or not, in Denver Jake is one of the 5 best QB's in the league.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Trent Green - Without Priest or Larry Johnson and a great offensive line he isn't nearly as good as Jake


I get so tired of this crap.

How about the numbers he put up when Derrick Blaylock was the starting halfback last year?

What about his year in Washington?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Plain and simple, like it or not, in Denver Jake is one of the 5 best QB's in the league.

You must be outraged over the selection of Cutler, then.

The Broncos are dumping a top five quarterback! THOSE MORONS! LOL

[Jason in LA]

Okay footsteps, I see we are just going in circles here. I'm not conceding any point to you, I just don't feel the need to continue on this path that's going to have us debating on every QB in the NFL. You don't like Plummer, I do. I do think you are off your rocker in your reasoning, and I bet most people would agree with me. Lets get back to the subject.

Would you say that Cutler, as of right now, is nearly as good as Plummer, or even slightly better? Because that's what Griese was to Brister. If you can seriously say that, then you are either saying that Cutler is great, or Plummer just sucks. I think you are saying a little of both, and I'd say you are wrong on both cases.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Okay footsteps, I see we are just going in circles here. I'm not conceding any point to you, I just don't feel the need to continue on this path that's going to have us debating on every QB in the NFL. You don't like Plummer, I do. I do think you are off your rocker in your reasoning, and I bet most people would agree with me. Lets get back to the subject.

Would you say that Cutler, as of right now, is nearly as good as Plummer, or even slightly better? Because that's what Griese was to Brister. If you can seriously say that, then you are either saying that Cutler is great, or Plummer just sucks. I think you are saying a little of both, and I'd say you are wrong on both cases.
115 posts on this are more than enough...as you said...we're going in circles, but let me answer you're question in two ways:

1) Nobody knows at this point how good Cutler will be in camp or the preseason games, so it's an unanwerable question as to how good he is.

However, that is not the real question you should be asking. The real question you should be asking is this: Which QB would perform better if Shanahan were to open this playbook up and remove the restrictions from Jake? Because that is why Cutler was brought in here...to run Shanahan's offense. The offfense we have seen so far is not Shanahan's offense...it's Shanahan Lite. So my question for you is:

2) If Shanahan were to open up his offensive playbook, which QB would ultimately win the job?

Shanny won't open the playbook for a rookie, but he might consider the fact that Roethlisberger won a Superbowl in only his second year after Cowhler took exactly this approach with him. He started him his first year in a limited offense that protected hiim, and in year 2 he opened it up and let him run the whold thing. Shanny might consider starting Jay and keeping the offense limited like it is now to protect him, and then gradually openng it up so that by year two he's more ready than he would be just toting a clipboard.

And THAT is my final word on this subject. I frankly hope Jake starts this year and Jay starts in 2007...but I'm not convinced he will.

[Jason in LA]

You just answered the question with a series of questions. You much like going in circles. This will never end if you don't answer the questoins.

Chances are that Cutler won't be better than Plummer this year. Chances are Cutler won't be better than the top 20 starting QBs in the league this year.

On the other hand, Plummer will still be a top 10 QB, and gives the Broncos the best chance of winning in '06.

So that sums it up. Plummer is the starter. This team is too good to go through the growing pains of a rookie QB.

What's more to debate?

[BroncoSoja]

Jake is better than Cutler NOW. (which is what matters to Shanny!)

It takes a couple years to soak in the system. And i dont think some young Rook will be able to just come in and take the reins.

With that said, if Cutler out performs Plummer (my boy), Cutler better be the opening day starter.

What the hell is this "soak in the system" crap I see everyone in Broncos nation spout off about... Did Plummer need to "Soak in the system" when we got him from Arizona? Hell no we put him on the field, and his getting better had nothing to do with soaking in the system. It had all to do with Kubiak sitting him down and making him watch hours apon hours of his bonehead plays.. Kubiak drilled it in his head that he needs to make better decisions..Him soaking had nothing to do with his improvement...

But now that there is no Kubs here and its obvious Shanny thinks that Plummer cant get it done I see no reason why we should not put the kid on the field if he proves to be the better QB in the offseason all the way up to the Reg season...I say let the best man win whoever that is if the kid or BVP (by some impossible miracle) is the best man then thats who we go with.

I know you all feel like we were a freaking Pass rush away from the SB this season, but lets be real here.. Plummer choked big time when it mattered last season.. Which is the same thing he has done all his NFL career.. Now that Kubs is gone what the hell makes you think he is going to get any better??....

[Crushaholic]

You must be outraged over the selection of Cutler, then.

The Broncos are dumping a top five quarterback! THOSE MORONS! LOL

Bob, Plummer is not getting dumped. We had the rare opportunity to grab the QBOTF and we took it. Cutler has the luxury of learning from Plummer for a couple of years and I think it's fantastic...

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Bob, Plummer is not getting dumped. We had the rare opportunity to grab the QBOTF and we took it. Cutler has the luxury of learning from Plummer for a couple of years and I think it's fantastic...

Plummer is gone after one, two years max. He's a lame duck QB.

[watermock]

What the hell is this "soak in the system" crap I see everyone in Broncos nation spout off about... Did Plummer need to "Soak in the system" when we got him from Arizona? Hell no we put him on the field, and his getting better had nothing to do with soaking in the system. It had all to do with Kubiak sitting him down and making him watch hours apon hours of his bonehead plays..

But now that there is no Kubs here and its obvious Shanny thinks that Plummer cant get it done I see no reason why we should not put the kid on the field if he proves to be the better QB in the offseason all the way up to the Reg season...I say let the best man win whoever that is if the kid or BVP (by some impossible miracle) is the best man then thats who we go with.

I know you all feel like we were a freaking Pass rush away from the SB this season, but lets be real here.. Plummer choked big time when it mattered last season.. Which is the same thing he has done all his NFL career.. Now that Kubs is gone what the hell makes you think he is going to get any better??....

Well, soak in the system is virtually the exact term Cutler used. Second, Plummer had been in the league for 7 or so years when he came here, and there was no incumbent at all except people like Muneer Moore ect.

Kubiak drilled it in his head that he needs to make better decisions..Him soaking had nothing to do with his improvement...

That comment is self-contradictory.

There is absolutely nothing to say that Shanahan wouldn't put Cutler in if he's some sort of Elway, who struggled and it took years to correct bad decisions. I'm not in favor of making the same mistakes, and this isn't Bubby Brister or Chris Miller.

Pubiak gone is a blessing IMO. If you don't think we needed some WR's/TE's your crazy. We neglected some DE and DT issues, but your wandering. This is about Cutler starting. This entire thread is so stupid it's almost funny.

WE WERE NOT HANDED THE BEST QB IN THE DRAFT WE HAD TO MOVE ALL THE WAY UP FROM 29. Jesus Christ.

[BroncoMan4ever]

I get so tired of this crap.

How about the numbers he put up when Derrick Blaylock was the starting halfback last year?

What about his year in Washington?

You must be outraged over the selection of Cutler, then.

The Broncos are dumping a top five quarterback! THOSE MORONS! LOL


As i recall, Blaylock was a descent reserve RB for KC, plus he still had his incredible offensive line. Also, i don't recall him taking his team to the NFC Championship game, or going over 220 straight passes without an INT in his year in Washington.
I would take Jake Plummer of Trent Green any day.

Also, why would i be upset at the drafting of Jay Cutler, he gets a year or 2 to learn the system and become the Quarteback of the future, while Plummer remains the QB of right now, with time to get himself a ring and then hand over the keys to the finely tuned Denver Broncos to Jay Cutler. And in any sense, Cutler and Jake are both better than Green.;D

[Bob's your Information Minister]

As i recall, Blaylock was a descent reserve RB for KC, plus he still had his incredible offensive line. Also, i don't recall him taking his team to the NFC Championship game, or going over 220 straight passes without an INT in his year in Washington.
I would take Jake Plummer of Trent Green any day.

Also, why would i be upset at the drafting of Jay Cutler, he gets a year or 2 to learn the system and become the Quarteback of the future, while Plummer remains the QB of right now, with time to get himself a ring and then hand over the keys to the finely tuned Denver Broncos to Jay Cutler. And in any sense, Cutler and Jake are both better than Green.;D

Right. Right.

The Broncos draft a QB to replace Jake, but he's better than Green.

Right.

[BroncoMan4ever]

Right. Right.

The Broncos draft a QB to replace Jake, but he's better than Green.

Right.

How about u talk sh!t when Trent Green actually beats Denver and gets farther into the playoffs than the Jake Plummer led Denver Broncos.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

How about u talk sh!t when Trent Green actually beats Denver and gets farther into the playoffs than the Jake Plummer led Denver Broncos.

Come on. Be realistic. Your offense is dumbed down for Plummer.

[Crushaholic]

Come on. Be realistic. Your offense is dumbed down for Plummer.

Even if that statement WAS true, it doesn't matter. It worked.

[watermock]

The "dumbing down of the offense" was more of an east coast media creation than reality, but Jake took it and shrugged it off like Tillman would of.

The talking heads never ate crow while Favre threw 29 picks and Jake 8 in the regular season. They said the offense was "dumbed down". That was BS.

These were the same talking heads that said that C.Brown would go limping off the field by week 3.

Even is Jake played poorly trying to come back, letting Pitt convert 21 of 26 third downs didn't exactly look like the defense had turned the dice.

It's not a matter of "managing Jake", it's a matter of putting your QB in a position to win. Ask Favre.

[broncohaven]

There is a huge flaw in you argument footsteps, and that is that Griese was not a rookie. That blows up your "the gap is the same" take. If Griese was a rookie you'd have a semblance of a point, but as that isn't the case, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Griese attempted 3 passes as a rookie, there's your precedant. I expect no more than that from Cutler as a rookie

[Odysseus]

Right. Right.

The Broncos draft a QB to replace Jake, but he's better than Green.

Right.

Anybody who thinks a guy whose just drafted is better than a guy whose been in the league has lost their frigging mind.

Anybody who think Cutler should go in without getting some time learning how to read NFL defenses, learn how to be an NFL player, learn the basics, and mature in the NFL is way off base.

I would not be against him getting two years behind Plummer. When Cutler starts I don't want him to HAVE TO struggle. That's just nuts. He doesn't have to. We have a viable starter. Let him show off a little in the second year then in the third year let him roll.

I have a lot of confidence in Cutler but I want them to bring him along slow. I want him to explode when becomes a starter. Put the press on his side and for God's sake can we finish building our defense now!

[footstepsfrom#27]

Anybody who thinks a guy whose just drafted is better than a guy whose been in the league has lost their frigging mind.

Anybody who think Cutler should go in without getting some time learning how to read NFL defenses, learn how to be an NFL player, learn the basics, and mature in the NFL is way off base.

I would not be against him getting two years behind Plummer. When Cutler starts I don't want him to HAVE TO struggle. That's just nuts. He doesn't have to. We have a viable starter. Let him show off a little in the second year then in the third year let him roll.

I have a lot of confidence in Cutler but I want them to bring him along slow. I want him to explode when becomes a starter. Put the press on his side and for God's sake can we finish building our defense now!
I am not going to debate any more how good Jake Plummer is, nor am I going to continue to try to defend myself against this straw man of "you don't like Plummer" or other nonsense.

My critics on this thread continue to either miss the point, or ignore the point. This thread is not about what I think should happen. I've already stated two or three times that I WANT Plummer to start in 2006. I don't know how much clearer I can say that. This thread is not about what I want or think should happen. It's about what might happen because of how Shanahan thinks.

Clear? Not about what I want or think...it's about what Mike wants or thinks.

The best question to ask yourself is this: does Mike Shanahan believe the Denver Broncos can win the Superbowl in 2006?

I think that question was answered on draft day. If Shanny thought Denver was really that close to winning the Superbowl this year, he would have drafted to patch up our non-existant pass rush. He would not have moved up in this draft to choose a quarterback who can't help him win a Superbowl in 2006 or 2007. Evidence suggests Shanahan was plotting to move up in this draft for Cutler a year ago, which is why he traded the pick to Washington. Shanahan won two Superbowls with a quarterback who was 37 and 38 when he won them. Since Jake is only 31, that ought to equate in Shanahan's mind to him being able to produce for another 7 years IF he believes Plummer is his man. If you believe you can win a Superbowl with a QB that will be on your team in 7 years, you do not have to move up high in the draft to take another franchise QB who will only leave in three years if he's riding the bench. Three undeniable facts make it obvious that Jake is not the guy Shanny wants for a Superbowl run:

1) Shanahan cannot run his offense with Jake Plummer at quarterback. We can deny this all day and it won't change the truth. Plummer is not trusted by Shanahan to open up the offense. It's that simple. If you deny that then you're not paying attention at all.

2) Playing with a limited "Shanahan Lite" offensive game plan, we are not going to beat the Steelers or Colts in the playoffs, even if we improve our pass rush and the rest of the defense.

3) A rookie QB or one with no experience is not going to win a Superbowl either. If it's true that Shanny doesn't think we can win a Superbowl without opening the offense up, and if he doesn't trust Jake to do that, then it follows that Jake is not the guy he has in mind to win it all.

This last point is the the key.

Shanahan has ALREADY gone with a guy who had no NFL experience in a season in which we can assume he thought he had a chance to win the Superbowl. Whether he carried a clipboard for a year or not is irrelevant, because Griese was, for all intents and purposes...a rookie in '99. Shanahan thought he had a chance to win in '99. And why wouldn't he have thought this? In '99 he had TD returning off a 2,000 yard season. He had better talent on both sides of the ball than he does now. He had a team that had been there before and won back to back championships so they knew what it took. He had a balanced defense and an explosive offense. The ONLY thing he lacked was a QB to take Elway's place.

If Shanahan would go with a guy who had no experience in a year in which he believed he had the chance to win it all, why would he not do so in a year where he doesn't think that? So what does he do in '99 when he thought he had shot at another title? Does he try to trade for a veteran with past starting experience to take over for Elway? No. Does he use a guy who had 10 years worth of experience in the league who had won games for him the year before? No. He does what absolutely NOBODY thought he would do, and almost EVERYBODY criticized him for doing...he tosses a kid out there who; A) was drafted 2 rounds later than Cutler and was clearly not as talented, B) had only half as much college experience as Cutler, and C) was able to use the entire playbook.

Shanahan, I think...has learned from his past mistake. Shanahan thought he had a shot in '99 with Griese as the starter, but I believe that if you asked him now he would say that Griese would have needed a year or two to play the game rather than carry a clipboard before he was ready to lead a team to the Superbowl

So the question is this: If Shanny doesn't trust Jake to run his offense, (and he doesn't), and if he doesn't believe he can win it all without opening up that offense, (and he doesn't), and if he knows that Cutler will need a year or two before he's ready to lead a team that is playing HIS offense to the Superbowl...

How long does he want to wait to give Jay Cutler the playing time he needs to be ready to compete for a championship?

THAT is the only question we should be asking...not whether Cutler is better than Jake...not whether Jake is a top 10 QB...not whether Cutler will need to carry a clipboard to avoid having his career destroyed...not whether he's better than Griese or Griese was better than Brister or Plummer is better than Brister...NONE of that is relevant.

How much experience does Mike Shanahan want Jay Cutler to have actually playing on the field before he can lead this team to a Superbowl, and how long does he want to wait to begin the process of getting him that experience?

That's the only question that matters.

[errand]

Plummer is gone after one, two years max. He's a lame duck QB.

Since your so clairvoyant...can you give us the next two Super bowl winning teams so we can all place our bets?

I doubt Plummer gets dump in the next two years unless he sucks or is unwilling to renegotiate. If we continue to contend for the title and somehow find a way to win it.....Jake won't be going anywhere.

Nobody cuts title winning QB's who are playing well...except the Ravens...and they haven't recovered since.

[Jason in LA]

My critics on this thread continue to either miss the point, or ignore the point.

It's not that anybody is missing your point, or is ignoring your point, nobody agrees with it.

I think I've gone over just about all of your points. I don't think any of your arguments hold up.

[Jason in LA]

115 posts on this are more than enough...as you said...we're going in circles, but let me answer you're question in two ways:

1) Nobody knows at this point how good Cutler will be in camp or the preseason games, so it's an unanwerable question as to how good he is.

However, that is not the real question you should be asking. The real question you should be asking is this: Which QB would perform better if Shanahan were to open this playbook up and remove the restrictions from Jake? Because that is why Cutler was brought in here...to run Shanahan's offense. The offfense we have seen so far is not Shanahan's offense...it's Shanahan Lite. So my question for you is:

2) If Shanahan were to open up his offensive playbook, which QB would ultimately win the job?

Shanny won't open the playbook for a rookie, but he might consider the fact that Roethlisberger won a Superbowl in only his second year after Cowhler took exactly this approach with him. He started him his first year in a limited offense that protected hiim, and in year 2 he opened it up and let him run the whold thing. Shanny might consider starting Jay and keeping the offense limited like it is now to protect him, and then gradually openng it up so that by year two he's more ready than he would be just toting a clipboard.

And THAT is my final word on this subject. I frankly hope Jake starts this year and Jay starts in 2007...but I'm not convinced he will.

Last night I didn't really debate the points in this post because I was frustrated that you answered one simple question with a series of questions that's just going to lead us to going through circles again. I swear I wanted to poke you in the eye through my computer. I can't wait until they make the software to do that. ;D

Sure, we don't know what kind of rookie Cutler will be. For all we know he could set every all time record there is, or Shanny can pull a Dick Vermeil on Jason White, and tell him that he's not cut out for football. Who really knows. But chances are he'll be like most other rookies. He'll be a player that isn't ready to hit the field, and if he does get onto the field, it's going to be because of injuries. And he'll probably stink up the joint. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but the rule still stands. Chances are he won't be an exception to the rule. You can't bank on that.

As for the playbook being limited, we really don't know to what degree the playbook is being limited for Jake. Maybe he's playing with 95% of the playbook. Maybe he's playing with 50% of the playbook. We have know idea. But I'll tell you that Cutler isn't about to play with the amount of the playbook that Plummer plays with. And Cutler isn't going to out perform Plummer on the aspects of the playbook that he does know. It just doesn't work like that with rookies. You aren't giving Plummer enough credit, and you are giving Cutler way too much credit. To think that Cutler is going to be able to understand as much of the playbook as Jake is insulting to Jake's intelligence. I don't think Cutler can handle a large amount of the playbook. Did the guy score a 45 or something on the wonderlic?

Think of it in terms of a video game. Plummer has been around long enough to play with a Madden type playbook. Cutler, like most rookies, will be playing with a Tecmo Bowl type playbook. You know, that playbook that had four offensive plays, for the O and the D. On D, if you picked the same play that the O picked they gave you a blitz. That's going to be Cutler's playbook. Some point during the season they'll expand it, like they did the next year in Tecmo Bowl. If I'm remembering right, you hit a button, and it flipped to four more plays.

All jokes aside, to think that Cutler as a rookie can be a top 10 QB is just asking too much of the guy. If he ends up starting, and he plays like a rookie, people will be going nuts, and wondering why a Pro Bowl QB is sitting on the bench. It would just be a dumb thing to do, and Cutler will be thrown under the bus. Why kill the kid's career when you don't have to? Most high draft pick QBs who play as a rookie play because the guy infront of them just sucks, so they are forced onto the field. There is no need to force him on the field, so why do it.

One player that Cutler is often compared to of Farve. Farve is one of my all time favorites. I'm hoping that Cutler can become a Farve. Farve didn't play much as a rookie and he turned out great, so why rush Cutler out there. Farve, in limited action as a rookie, sucked. 0-5 with two picks. I'll take another year, or two, with Plummer, and let Cutler work his way into being a Brett Farve. In the long run, we'll all be happy.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Just curious to see how many of you now agree with what I had to say on this thread...5 months later.