49ers rejected a Lelie trade...KFFL

[TheManeMan]

49ers | Team rejected trade involving Lelie
Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:02:42 -0700

Matt Maiocco, of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, reports the San Francisco 49ers rejected a trade with the Denver Broncos that involved Broncos WR Ashley Lelie. The Broncos were shopping Lelie for a second-round pick. 49ers vice president of player personnel Scot McCloughan said, "He does have some talent. He's more of a vertical guy, outside the numbers, and can stretch the field, but we had some issues with other things. (I'm) not saying he wouldn't fit in, but ... what kind of football player are we going to have when it's said and done?" He said the team would be interested if the Broncos' asking price drops dramatically

[SoCalBronco]

Well that must have been before the trade since they dont have that 2nd anymore. I dont think anyone is going to give up a 2 in this draft, anyway.

[Popps]

Doesn't that stupid VP know that it's all Shanahan's fault Lelie isn't world class?

"He's more of a vertical guy"

Let me translate.... "he's a one trick pony and we're not dishing out a #2 pick for that... go pound sand."

[Play2win]

Man we are getting shutdown left and right. I think everybody is getting alittle gun-shy after seeing the way we Raped the Redskins.

Screw it, we still have Champ Bailey... ;D

[-Slap-]

Good news. That means Lelie will be a Bronco next season. I would rather lease him one more year than get less than a second rounder for him.

[Broncoman13]

That or package him with that 3rd for Javon. If the Packers will take that I'd be happy.

[SoCalBronco]

That or package him with that 3rd for Javon. If the Packers will take that I'd be happy.

Apparently, we are going to give 37 to GB for Walker this upcoming week.

[Requiem]

Lelie for a #37 would be highway robbery. I'd still take their second third for him.

[meangene]

If we could get a three for him or package him and a three for Javon I would take it and run. This does not mean he won't be traded - just not for an early 2nd. I think he is as good as gone it's just a question of how much.

[-Slap-]

That or package him with that 3rd for Javon. If the Packers will take that I'd be happy.
I don't like that trade. Walker is coming off a surgical knee. He's only had one good year and he had Brett Favre throwing the ball to him when he did. Lelie for Walker straight up would be alright, but there's no reason for us to sweeten the deal. Keep Lelie and draft a WR with that third rounder. We'll get Ashley playing for a free agent contract while the kid learns the ropes next year. Then we'll get a comp pick for Lelie in 2008.

[Requiem]

I think Lelie will get shipped somehow. I'm not sure how motivated he'd be this next year by a team who is trying to deal him.

[-Slap-]

I think Lelie will get shipped somehow. I'm not sure how motivated he'd be this next year by a team who is trying to deal him.
He'll be plenty motivated because he'll be in the walk year of his contract. A bad year will only cost him money and he's a smart kid.

[fdf]

I don't like that trade. Walker is coming off a surgical knee. He's only had one good year and he had Brett Favre throwing the ball to him when he did. Lelie for Walker straight up would be alright, but there's no reason for us to sweeten the deal. Keep Lelie and draft a WR with that third rounder. We'll get Ashley playing for a free agent contract while the kid learns the ropes next year. Then we'll get a comp pick for Lelie in 2008.

Good take. Talented but injured for less talented but healthy is a good trade. Both are unhappy where they are. Both teams could benefit with happier players and with a better fit of personnel--Walker is better suited to Jake's strengths and Farve can hit Lelie long much better than can Jake.

[Popps]

That or package him with that 3rd for Javon. If the Packers will take that I'd be happy.

I'd be elated. We get a better receiver for a guy we're going to lose anyway and a third round pick.

**** Lelie. He's trying to stick a gun in our Ribs to trade him because he can't beat out 37 year old Rod Smith. Javon Walker made the Pro Bowl and wanted to re-negotiate. Lelie hasn't done ****, and he's trying to hardball us in to trading him?

This skinny fairy can't be out of Denver fast enough for me. If it means we get a quality WR with some toughness like Walker in return, all the better.

[OrangeShadow]

ash and a 3 for javon would be an awesome deal

[Requiem]

He'll be plenty motivated because he'll be in the walk year of his contract. A bad year will only cost him money and he's a smart kid.

Ah that's right. I just sent him a message on his website. I hope to hear a reply. I'm gonna miss him.

[Popps]

Walker averaged 17 yards a catch and netted 9 TDs the season BEFORE he blew up and went to the Pro Bowl. Let's not pretend like he had some kind of fluke season. He was a highly touted prospect coming out of school thought to just need some experience. He got it and was shooting up like a rocket before the injury.

This is a no-brainer.

[Paladin]

I'd be elated. We get a better receiver for a guy we're going to lose anyway and a third round pick.

**** Lelie. He's trying to stick a gun in our Ribs to trade him because he can't beat out 37 year old Rod Smith. Javon Walker made the Pro Bowl and wanted to re-negotiate. Lelie hasn't done ****, and he's trying to hardball us in to trading him?

This skinny fairy can't be out of Denver fast enough for me. If it means we get a quality WR with some toughness like Walker in return, all the better.


Grrrrrrr!!!


Actually, I am perplexed why the East Coast Media "knows" that GB is going to trade Walker to Denver. Wouldn't Scheaffer have some sniffs there?

Trade a third to GB for Walker? Big bucks, man. Need to work out a deal with Walker first, I would say.

Still would need to draft Stovall or someone late?

[gunns]

I don't like that trade. Walker is coming off a surgical knee. He's only had one good year and he had Brett Favre throwing the ball to him when he did.

Absolutely. I'm not understanding this drool for Walker. We let Jurevicious and Moulds get away and now we want to clammer for Walker? It takes two years for a player to come back from that injury to form. Why didn't we look at possibly trading for Stallworth? Similar stats with not as good QB and not coming off a knee injury.

[gunns]

Walker averaged 17 yards a catch and netted 9 TDs the season BEFORE he blew up and went to the Pro Bowl. Let's not pretend like he had some kind of fluke season. He was a highly touted prospect coming out of school thought to just need some experience. He got it and was shooting up like a rocket before the injury.

This is a no-brainer.

That's the problem, the injury.

[Play2win]

What I don't get is how come everybody is so confident Javon's knee rehab... I would look at that as a huge question mark...

Conditional draft pick next year is one thing, but goods before we get the product is totally different...

How can we be so sure Javon isn't going to have any set backs or ever be the same player?

[NFLBRONCO]

Screw walker take WR next year in better draft class. Let Lelie pout this year and if he walks oh well. I kind of am surprised no Bell trade rumors yet.

[montrose]

Apparently, we are going to give 37 to GB for Walker this upcoming week.

Are you being serious?

[Paladin]

That's why I suggest the Broncos still draft a WR in the second or fourth or somewhere. Terrell might be average, and the Claw may bust. Devoe is coming along and Adams may be near peak.

Need infusion of more red blood, there, Frank.

[Broncoman13]

Apparently, we are going to give 37 to GB for Walker this upcoming week.


Okay, I must have missed something.... point me in the right direction please.

[SimonFletcher73]

I wouldn't take a 3rd rounder for Ashlie. I don't think a rookie could contribute near what he could do for us this year. But if we could package him for Javon and a 4th, I'd do that in a heartbeat. The most important thing is production in 06.

[Requiem]

OSKIE, it was a rumor on some East Cost Sports site that with the newly acquired #37 pick, the Broncos were going to dish it for Javon Walker. To me, you dish #68 for him. Deal or no deal. He's damaged goods and two years older than Lelie.

[delany]

What I don't get is how come everybody is so confident Javon's knee rehab... I would look at that as a huge question mark...

Conditional draft pick next year is one thing, but goods before we get the product is totally different...

How can we be so sure Javon isn't going to have any set backs or ever be the same player?

Thats why if we are going to give up our 2nd rounder...I would prefer to offer the lower one to the Saints for Charles Grant instead of trading the higher one for Walker.

Grant is going to become expendable when NO drafts Mario and is much better than any DE we could draft in the slot. At 27/28 there is still some tread left on the tires and I think he could be a 10+ sacker again.

Hold on to Ash this year...see if Terrel or Devoe blossoms and draft a legit TE to take some of the pressure off.

[Popps]

Apparently, we are going to give 37 to GB for Walker this upcoming week.

Really?

Sweet.

We're unlikely to get anyone of Walker's talent at that spot, anyway. A proven Pro Bowl player with insane abilities for a 2nd round pick? A smart team makes that trade every time.

Big deal if he needs a little time to heal. A rookie WR is going to need two freaking years to develop in our system.

[SoCalBronco]

Okay, I must have missed something.... point me in the right direction please.

It is just a rumors site, so take it for what its worth but ive been reading this site for awhile.

04/22...The Draft is just one week away and these are the rumors that are circulating around the league....the Dallas Cowboys recently contacted the Baltimore Ravens about the availability of Safety Ed Reed...the Philadelphia Eagles will make a concerted effort to move up in the Draft and land either DT Haloti Ngata or OT Winston Justice...the New York Giants will draft the best player available prospect on their board and could pass up a Linebacker for a HB like DeAngelo Williams if he's available...the Chicago Bears covet DT John McCargo...the Minnesota Vikings will come out of the first round of the Draft with a new Quarterback...the Vikings will attempt to move up for either Jay Cutler or Vince Young if either slips past the first seven picks in the Draft or deal their first round pick to Atlanta for Matt Schaub...the New Orleans Saints have Dwight Smith and Courtney Watson on the trading block...the Saints want to move down in the Draft...the Arizona Cardinals covet TE Vernon Davis...the New York Jets will make a concerted effort to trade DT Dwayne Robertson...the Baltimore Ravens covet OT Winston Justice...the Jacksonville Jaguars are leaning toward taking a running back with their first round pick...the Denver Broncos will acquire WR Javon Walker from the Packers within the next week...the Houston Texans will take HB Reggie Bush with the first pick in the Draft.

04/20...If you read our 04/19 HOT Prospect News and NFL Rumor section yesterday morning the Broncos/Niners trade didn't come as a surprise...in yesterdays column we pointed out that the Broncos were on the verge of being involved in a pre-draft trade in which they would acquire Packers WR Javon Walker...the trade didn't exactly play out the way it was told to us by our source but the bottom line is the Broncos are now in position to land Walker either before the Draft or on Draft day...it's believed that the Broncos didn't want to surrender either of their first round picks for Walker and their own second round pick (#61) wasn't high enough for the Packers to consider dealing him because the Eagles (another team in the hunt for Walker) had ammunition (a higher pick in the second round #45 overall) to offer the Packers for Javon...another player in the mix for Walker (the Niners) were also said to be interested in him and were considering offering their own second round pick #37 to the Packers for Walker...what the Broncos accomplished in their trade with the Niners on Wednesday was they virtually eliminated the Niners from acquiring Walker because they own both their second and third round picks and they trumped the Eagles by moving ahead of them in the second round and now have a higher pick #37 to offer the Packers for their disgruntled star...all in all...the Broncos and Packers have yet to agree on a deal for Walker... but the ground-work appears to be set for the Broncos to have clear sailing from here on out.04/19...Rumor rumblings....the rumors that the Houston Texans may pass on Reggie Bush and deal the first pick in the Draft have been picking up steam this week because the New York Jets appear very interested in Bush and held a mini private workout for the USC star on Tuesday...people close to the situation insist that the Jets are just "covering all the bases" but would be very interested in Bush if he somehow fell to them in the Draft...this may be true.. but we believe what we believed and stated all along...and that is that the Texans would really like to move out of the pick and take either DE Mario Williams or OT D'Brickashaw Ferguson a player that fills a bigger need for the team...stay tuned!...elsewhere...the Javon Walker trade rumors have also been picking up steam this week with the Eagles, Broncos and Niners being the teams showing the most interest...the most interesting nugget that we found out on Tuesday relating to Walker is the Broncos and Niners might be involved in a pre-draft trade (which could include Walker) with the Broncos sending the Packers both of their first round picks (#15 and #22) in exchange for the Packers fifth pick overall...according to the NFL trade chart both of the Broncos picks are worth about 1830 points while the Packers fifth pick overall is worth 1700 points...which would make Walker worth 130 points (or a late 3rd round pick) according to the trade chart...we feel that Walker should be worth at least a second round pick (if healthy) which would tip this deal in favor of the Broncos...we were told that it's likely that Walker will be dealt before the Draft because of Walkers contract situation and any team that plans on acquiring him will need time to work out a deal with him which could be a sticky situation because both sides may not agree on his worth since Walker is coming off of a serious injury...all in all...it appears that Walker will be dealt before the Draft...stay tuned!

http://www.eastcoastsportsnews.com/2006Draft.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

It does appear they did hit on 4/19 the Denver proposal (that was just reported yesterday by KFFL) to move up to 5 which we now know that GB rejected. We'll see if they are right on the rest.

[Requiem]

The only way I see us dealing for Javon if Lelie is off of our hands. I don't think there's a way we enter this season with him and Ashley on board.

[Bronco LB 59]

Matt Maiocco, the writer of this article, was the Commish of my NCAA bracket pool. I will write him an e-mail to see if I can find anything more about this.

[freak6]

We were one play away IMO from going to the SuperBowl, and you want to move our #2 WR AND a pick for Walker??? That could potentially wreck our offense. We gotta have a deep threat, and if you think Walker is gonna have the same burst after ACL surgery you are CRAZY.

Lelie and a 3rd for Walker? Did I read that right. That is giving up WAY to much. Our offense is so conservative, Lelie isn't going to post huge numbers. But he does make some amazing catches and IMO makes Plumber look good. That catch in Buffalo was insane.

I agree with Slap and others that we should keep Lelie and let him do what he can in his contract year. Walker is a big question mark, and I don't see any gain in swapping a healthy Lelie for a banged up Walker.

[-Slap-]

The only way I see us dealing for Javon if Lelie is off of our hands. I don't think there's a way we enter this season with him and Ashley on board.
Hopefully Walker and his 9 Wonderlic can assimilate the playbook. He might need a mental redshirt year like Terrell.

[WaffleBoy]

49ers | Team rejected trade involving Lelie
Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:02:42 -0700

Matt Maiocco, of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, reports the San Francisco 49ers rejected a trade with the Denver Broncos that involved Broncos WR Ashley Lelie. The Broncos were shopping Lelie for a second-round pick. 49ers vice president of player personnel Scot McCloughan said, "He does have some talent. He's more of a vertical guy, outside the numbers, and can stretch the field, but we had some issues with other things. (I'm) not saying he wouldn't fit in, but ... what kind of football player are we going to have when it's said and done?" He said the team would be interested if the Broncos' asking price drops dramatically

In other words, we are not interested in a limited receiver who only can go vertical.

The Boy Wonder :super:

[-Slap-]

Javon Walker = Dumbass (http://www.packersnews.com/topics/2002draft/draft_3545112.shtml).

[Requiem]

Hopefully Walker and his 9 Wonderlic can assimilate the playbook. He might need a mental redshirt year like Terrell.

No way in hell do we give up a high pick if Walker is just going to sit a year. He'll be 29 by the time he even starts for us? No thanks.

[freak6]

Really? Sweet.
A proven Pro Bowl player with insane abilities for a 2nd round pick? Big deal if he needs a little time to heal.

You negotiate your record deals like that? A little time is a big deal. We need production immediately, one game makes the difference between home field and not. This is a huge risk, and giving up a 2nd round pick for a belligerent WR coming of knee surgery is called us getting raped. At the 37 we could pick up the TE we need, or a DL, or a safety, a G, and you want to pick up a WR with a torn up knee and hope he makes it back. You probably liked the Middlebrooks draft pick too.

[WaffleBoy]

Javon Walker = Dumbass (http://www.packersnews.com/topics/2002draft/draft_3545112.shtml).

Mr. "I can't get no seperation without Brett throwing a missile?" lol

The Boy Wonder :super:

[baja]

This is why Shanahan is so wise relative to player, lelie believes he is number one receiver material so Shanny tells him go find a team that agrees with you and we will make a deal. now we find out SF doesn't even think Lelie is worth a second (Which Shanahan knew all along) so now Lelie has to think holly shiit teams don't even want to part with a 3rd foe me and I am in a contract year. I better step up and give the Broncos a hell of a year or my career is in the toilet. Smart Shanny, smart. Either we were going to get a high pick or a highly motivated Ashlie Lelie

[Barry Ramey]

Yes, keep Lelie who is already bitching about this team. Keeping him would be stupid. The Broncos have been burned in the past with disgruntled players, so I would hope they would have learned their lesson.

Lelie is a wimp who won't go over the middle and hanging onto him seems pointless.

Broncos need a TE who can stretch the field down the seems than a WR who just wants to run fly patterns.

Heck, the Broncos could easily replace Lelie's production by simply taking Holmes at #15 and even though he's smaller, he'll go over the mdidle more than Lelie and has more speed to run fly patterns too.

If can get a proven wideout who still hasn't even reached his prime, you do it without thinking about it. No guarantee a 2nd or 3rd rounder will make it. Look at how many Bronco mid round picks the last few years are not around anymore, if even still in the NFL.

[Popps]

This is why Shanahan is so wise relative to player, lelie believes he is number one receiver material so Shanny tells him go find a team that agrees with you and we will make a deal. now we find out SF doesn't even think Lelie is worth a second (Which Shanahan knew all along) so now Lelie has to think holly shiit teams don't even want to part with a 3rd foe me and I am in a contract year. I better step up and give the Broncos a hell of a year or my career is in the toilet. Smart Shanny, smart. Either we were going to get a high pick or a highly motivated Ashlie Lelie

That's a pretty sunny spin on it. You could be right, but if you check Shanahan's history, he doesn't like players pushing him around... and that's what Lelie is trying to do.

I don't know, I just don't see the guy back in Denver.

[baja]

Javon Walker = Dumbass (http://www.packersnews.com/topics/2002draft/draft_3545112.shtml).

Thanks Slap, good find.

I am in the column that says "No" to Walker. Stupid is not a good attribute for a Bronco receiver to have.

[Requiem]

Mr. "I can't get no seperation without Brett throwing a missile?" lol

The Boy Wonder :super:

What the hell is with this stupid Boy Wonder ****?

[SoCalBronco]

What the hell is with this stupid Boy Wonder ****?

Actually, the more accurate phrase would be "The Boy Fondler" given Waffle's history on this board.

[baja]

That's a pretty sunny spin on it. You could be right, but if you check Shanahan's history, he doesn't like players pushing him around... and that's what Lelie is trying to do.

I don't know, I just don't see the guy back in Denver.

Shanny is clever enough to understand Lelie will give all he has this contract year so I doubt Shanny will settle for a ham sandwich for him, he will get value or Ashley will go over the middle all season long, for us.

[Popps]

Thanks Slap, good find.

I am in the column that says "No" to Walker. Stupid is not a good attribute for a Bronco receiver to have.

Yea, I'd hate for Walker not to be able to attend those MENSA meetings that most NFL players are attending.

Hey, Ryan Leaf scored a 27... he must have been a pretty good NFL player.

Brian Griese scored 39. Maybe we can get him back?

Or, maybe we could look at the Pro Bowl season and extremely productive prior season Walker had... in an offense very similar to our own.

Proven NFL production or Wonderlic score... you decide.

[SoCalBronco]

Shanny is clever enough to understand Lelie will give all he has this contract year so I doubt Shanny will settle for a ham sandwich for him, he will get value on Ashley will go over the middle all season long, for us.

That may very well be true, but the value gained will only be for this year. Even with a great year and a great contract offer from the team, he still will not resign with the team.

[Northman]

49ers | Team rejected trade involving Lelie
Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:02:42 -0700

Matt Maiocco, of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, reports the San Francisco 49ers rejected a trade with the Denver Broncos that involved Broncos WR Ashley Lelie. The Broncos were shopping Lelie for a second-round pick. 49ers vice president of player personnel Scot McCloughan said, "He does have some talent. He's more of a vertical guy, outside the numbers, and can stretch the field, but we had some issues with other things. (I'm) not saying he wouldn't fit in, but ... what kind of football player are we going to have when it's said and done?" He said the team would be interested if the Broncos' asking price drops dramatically


Cant say i can argue with his points.

[Broncoman13]

Don't be suprised to see Minn. enter the mix for Ash. They have two picks in the 2nd round (48 & 51) and are short on talent at the position. It may take Ash and a 4th to pull the deal off, but we very likely could walk away with Javon (37th traded) and still have two 2nds to play with. 15, 51, 61, 68, and two 4ths. That's still a good place to be as far as I'm concerned. Also, everybody needs to remember that Javon injured his knee in the first game of the season. He's almost 8 months removed from that injury. You also have to consider that he was on track for a BIG contract. With his injury you are now able to get a little of that back. Of course you are rolling the dice b/c he may not be the same player. But, modern medicine has allowed guys like Jamal Lewis to come back from ACL's. I don't see why a WR couldn't do the same thing. As for the age... Rod Smith is 36 and a pro-bowl caliber receiver. TO is well past 30 and widely considered the best in the game. Jimmy Smith, Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Chris Carter, and numerous others all played well even at the age of 32 and beyond. So at 28 or whatever Walker is, he still as a good bit of time left!

[WaffleBoy]

SoCal, the Broncos could have gotten Jackson and Lawson. Why did they trade the 2nd, 1st round selection?

The Boy Wonder :super:

[SoCalBronco]

SoCal, the Broncos could have gotten Jackson and Lawson. Why did they trade the 2nd, 1st round selection?

The Boy Wonder :super:

Well if they were going to get Jackson and Lawson, im glad they traded it. I dont want either.

[Broncoman13]

Yea, I'd hate for Walker not to be able to attend those MENSA meetings that most NFL players are attending.

Hey, Ryan Leaf scored a 27... he must have been a pretty good NFL player.

Brian Griese scored 39. Maybe we can get him back?

Or, maybe we could look at the Pro Bowl season and extremely productive prior season Walker had... in an offense very similar to our own.

Proven NFL production or Wonderlic score... you decide.


So let me get this straight. Javon Walker scores a 9 on a wonderlic test that he admittedly "blew off", goes on to learn an almost identical system to our own, produces at an ALL-PRO level... and we should be concerned that he is dumb?

[NFLBRONCO]

If we really do send # 37 for Walker I definately hope we trade down. I want a DE DT TE RB addressed late 1 or 2nd.

[baja]

Yea, I'd hate for Walker not to be able to attend those MENSA meetings that most NFL players are attending.

Hey, Ryan Leaf scored a 27... he must have been a pretty good NFL player.

Brian Griese scored 39. Maybe we can get him back?

Or, maybe we could look at the Pro Bowl season and extremely productive prior season Walker had... in an offense very similar to our own.

Proven NFL production or Wonderlic score... you decide.

I hear ya Popps but we are talking a "9" here, that's "help tying shoe laces" type score and it takes receivers of average football intelligence at least a season to play effectively in Shanahan's system. Did I mention Walker will be 29 his next birthday? We all know he has a two year recovery time knee injury. You like to overpay and reach for your players. I say this is a big time reach, I prefer to stick with a motivated, healthy and play book ready Lelie.

[Broncoman13]

Well if they were going to get Jackson and Lawson, im glad they traded it. I dont want either.


I'm still taking LAWSON!!!

[Popps]

but we very likely could walk away with Javon (37th traded) and still have two 2nds to play with. 15, 51, 61, 68, and two 4ths. That's still a good place to be as far as I'm concerned.

Are you kidding me? That's a phenomenal scenario.

[WaffleBoy]

Well if they were going to get Jackson and Lawson, im glad they traded it. I dont want either.

Who do you want with the 1st selection?

Here's my choices at 32:

1. White (if he drops)
2. Lawson
3. Allen
4. Carpenter
5. Mangold

The Boy Wonder :super:

[SoCalBronco]

I'm still taking LAWSON!!!

Id be pissed pretty much with anyone other than White, DW2 or Bunkley at 15. And now it appears that Holmes may be the guy there...ugh.

[baja]

That may very well be true, but the value gained will only be for this year. Even with a great year and a great contract offer from the team, he still will not resign with the team.

Ya we said the same about Elam, Al Wilson, Trevor Pryce (Last year).

A lot can happen in a year.

[SoCalBronco]

Who do you want with the 1st selection?

Here's my choices at 32:

1. White (if he drops)
2. Lawson
3. Allen
4. Carpenter
5. Mangold

The Boy Wonder :super:

Lawson and Carpenter? Who is your other 3-4 OLB besides Porter...do u really need pass rush, youve already got it from the OLB spot.

Mangold would be a very good pick. There are big injury rumors about Allen, although Denver seems to like him alot which probably means he is going to be a bust. I'd be furious if you got White.

[Popps]

I hear ya Popps but we are talking a "9" here, that's "help tying shoe laces" type score and it takes receivers of average football intelligence at least a season to play effectively in Shanahan's system.

Javon is Lelie's age, no? Word is he'll be running full speed by training camp. Even if we take a dump on him this year, having a premiere WR next year at age 29 is just fine with me.

I had my 11 year old take the Wonderlic test on-line and he came in around the low 20s. He's a bright kid, but he's also in 6th grade... so that gives you some perspective on how "hard" that test is.

So, maybe Walker is as dumb as a handful of Georgia clay. He's already proven that he's able to play at an elite NFL level. All of the debate tactics in the world can't negate what the guy has done on the field. He's custom-built for our system, a phenomenal athlete and a proven commodity.
Most NFL players are borderline cro-mags, anyway.

As long as he's not out there beating his wife or running drugs, I don't care if he can't get through a sentence without help. He's an elite player.

[SoCalBronco]

Ya we said the same about Elam, Al Wilson, Trevor Pryce (Last year).

A lot can happen in a year.

When did I say that about either of them? I never said such a thing.

Show me where I said "even with a great year and a great contract offer from the broncos, (fill in) wont resign here".

[Broncoman13]

I hear ya Popps but we are talking a "9" here, that's "help tying shoe laces" type score and it takes receivers of average football intelligence at least a season to play effectively in Shanahan's system. Did I mention Walker will be 29 his next birthday? We all know he has a two year recovery time knee injury. You like to overpay and reach for your players. I say this is a big time reach, I prefer to stick with a motivated, healthy and play book ready Lelie.


Almost identical systems Baja. Javon won't have too much to learn in Denver. Even the nomenclature of the calls is similar. I don't remember what Ash's Wonderlic was, but it's not as if he was a fast learner... if you look at it in terms of production I would say that Javon was the faster learner. Plus, at WR I want a guy that can put a CB into a back pedal, make him turn his hips, and then break him down on an option route... not a guy that can tell me the next sequence in this equation 2,4,8,16,__ while he's running a 4.3 40.

Plus, and I've said it many times over. Walker and Ash are different receivers. Ash is a deep ball guy. He's like Randy Moss without the problems. Javon is a possesion guy with big play ability. Think Rod Smith, but faster, bigger, and stronger. By all accounts the dude's preparation and intensity in practice are second to none.

[-Slap-]

So let me get this straight. Javon Walker scores a 9 on a wonderlic test that he admittedly "blew off", goes on to learn an almost identical system to our own, produces at an ALL-PRO level... and we should be concerned that he is dumb?
He didn't do anything as a rookie and it took halfway through his second year for the lights to come on for him. That and the Wonderlic score of an eggplant, and I would say that indicates he might be a little slow.

The surgical knee.

Hiring Rosenhaus (since fired) and threatening a holdout while playing on a valid first round contract.

Yeah, this guy has no downside at all.

[Broncoman13]

Id be pissed pretty much with anyone other than White, DW2 or Bunkley at 15. And now it appears that Holmes may be the guy there...ugh.


Dammit... where are you getting Holmes is the guy now? I'd be a little angry with that. He's a good player, but no way do we take a WR in the first round of this piss poor draft (WR wise)!

The only way I'm happy with Holmes in the first is if we really turn it around and end up with these guys at 37, 61, and 68: Hali/Kiwi, Simpson, Wright.

[SoCalBronco]

Damn, he is going to be 29. Forget it. So its just like a 3 year lease, for a high 2nd in a good draft. No. I didnt know he was that old.

[Popps]

2002 (rookie year) 319 yds 1 TD
2003 716 yards 9 TDs
2004 1382 yards 12 TDs (Pro Bowl)

Notice a pattern here?

He had more TDs in 2004 than Lelie has in his career, if I'm not mistaken.

Here's a freakish athlete who's proven his abilities with over 2000 yards, 21 TDs and a 16 YPC average after his rookie season. Who gives a **** if he can figure out how many apples Billy took from Susie.

[SoCalBronco]

Dammit... where are you getting Holmes is the guy now? I'd be a little angry with that. He's a good player, but no way do we take a WR in the first round of this piss poor draft (WR wise)!

The only way I'm happy with Holmes in the first is if we really turn it around and end up with these guys at 37, 61, and 68: Hali/Kiwi, Simpson, Wright.

ESPN's Scouts Inc. says he is the WR we "really want" and Wabbit said last night if he had to pick who they are going with at this moment, it would be Holmes.

This is an even numbered year, Mike is not allowed to make major **** ups.

[WaffleBoy]

Lawson and Carpenter? Who is your other 3-4 OLB besides Porter...do u really need pass rush, youve already got it from the OLB spot.

Mangold would be a very good pick. There are big injury rumors about Allen, although Denver seems to like him alot which probably means he is going to be a bust. I'd be furious if you got White.

Mangold would add some depth, since we have re-done Hartings' contract. Lawson or Carpenter would be a great addition if we lose Porter next season. However, Jason Allen would have the most impact if he falls to us and is healthy b/c we are not sold on the midget from Washington.

The Boy Wonder :super:

[Hercules Rockefeller]

ash and a 3 for javon would be an awesome deal

No, it wouldn't be.

Walker (per year avg., not counting last year either)
51 catches, 806 yds, and 7 TDs

Lelie
42 catches, 752 yds, and 3 TDs

The difference between those guys is not a high 3rd

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Notice a pattern here?


Yeah, it's called 1 good season and a blownout knee after that. He's damaged goods until he proves otherwise.

[Popps]

Damn, he is going to be 29. Forget it. So its just like a 3 year lease, for a high 2nd in a good draft. No. I didnt know he was that old.

Yea, he's 15 months older than Lelie, so let's forget about it. Never mind he's 15x as talented.

[SoCalBronco]

Yea, he's 15 months older than Lelie, so let's forget about it. Never mind he's 15x as talented.

Does this look like 15 times to you?

Walker (per year avg., not counting last year either)
51 catches, 806 yds, and 7 TDs

Lelie
42 catches, 752 yds, and 3 TDs
(thanks for the stats Herc)

[Broncoman13]

He didn't do anything as a rookie and it took halfway through his second year for the lights to come on for him. That and the Wonderlic score of an eggplant, and I would say that indicates he might be a little slow.

The surgical knee.

Hiring Rosenhaus (since fired) and threatening a holdout while playing on a valid first round contract.

Yeah, this guy has no downside at all.


He didn't have a great first year... I agree. His second year though is different from what you are saying. He had 200 yards and 2 TD's through the first 4 games. He had 250 yards and 3 TD through the last 4 games. I don't think those #'s are so far off that you could say he didn't have the lights come on until the 2nd half of the season.

Looking at it a little more closely. He had 4 TD through the first 8 and 5 through the 2nd 8. To be fair, the last 5 games were his best stretch of that season... but it's not like all of his #'s came in the last half of the season either.

[Popps]

Yeah, it's called 1 good season and a blownout knee after that. He's damaged goods until he proves otherwise.

Wrong.

He put up Ashley Lelie like numbers in his second year, only unlike Ashley.. he was able to get into the endzone 9 times. He then continued his upward progress with a massive season and a Pro Bowl appearance.

This is a guy who came out of school as a high pick, a superior athlete and only needed some time. Let's not pretend like he was a fluke who stumbled into the NFL from the Arena league, or something. He was drafted in the mid first round... and went on to prove himself worthy of that pick.

Ian Gold was one of our best defensive players last year and he tore up his knee a couple of years back. This isn't 1974. Guys come back to 100% from these things these days. Not all of them, but most of them.

[baja]

When did I say that about either of them? I never said such a thing.

Show me where I said "even with a great year and a great contract offer from the broncos, (fill in) wont resign here".

We = board consensus

"We" think Ashley will never sign with Denver

That same "We" said the afore mentioned players were done in Denver.

I never said you personally said anything unless you believe you constitute the board opinion?

[SoCalBronco]

Ian Gold was one of our best defensive players last year

Your not really helping your credibility here.

[Popps]

Plus... we're talking about a freaking 2nd round pick, here. You guys act like we're trading Champ Bailey for him. Good lord.

[Broncoman13]

Damn, he is going to be 29. Forget it. So its just like a 3 year lease, for a high 2nd in a good draft. No. I didnt know he was that old.


So you'd prefer Holmes in the first??? FvCK THAT!!!

Perhaps Minn will enter the picture for Ash. If they offer/take Ash and a 4th for their #51, wouild you make the deal? I would, if we got Walker for #37.

[Requiem]

Popps you're sippin' on the old man's cough medicine. Damaged goods.

[SoCalBronco]

Plus... we're talking about a freaking 2nd round pick, here. You guys act like we're trading Champ Bailey for him. Good lord.

Its a very high 2nd in a deep draft, where there are about 40 first round caliber prospects.

[Popps]

Your not really helping your credibility here.

Fair enough, he was a big contributor to our defense and showed no signs of a torn ACL.

Better?

[SoCalBronco]

So you'd prefer Holmes in the first??? FvCK THAT!!!

Perhaps Minn will enter the picture for Ash. If they offer/take Ash and a 4th for their #51, wouild you make the deal? I would, if we got Walker for #37.

No I dont prefer Holmes in the first or ANY WR in the first. There is not a SINGLE wr in this draft deserving of a first round pick. The best WRs in this draft are Stovall and Williams, hopefully we can land one in Round 2.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Wrong.


Really, he didn't blow out his knee? We can talk all day and night about who has come back from an ACL tear and who has not. Guess who hasn't come back from an ACL tear yet? Javon Walker.

[Popps]

Its a very high 2nd in a deep draft, where there are about 40 first round caliber prospects.

Yea, check our last 10 2nd round picks and let me know how many of them have done more than Walker in the NFL.

[rbackfactory80]

Damn, he is going to be 29. Forget it. So its just like a 3 year lease, for a high 2nd in a good draft. No. I didnt know he was that old.

He will be 28 in October

[SoCalBronco]

We = board consensus

"We" think Ashley will never sign with Denver

That same "We" said the afore mentioned players were done in Denver.

I never said you personally said anything unless you believe you constitute the board opinion?

My bad I misread it. I thought you had written "you" previously.

[Requiem]

Plus... we're talking about a freaking 2nd round pick, here. You guys act like we're trading Champ Bailey for him. Good lord.
#37 is basically a first-rounder, in a depth filled with talent. I'd rather get a healthy, young prospect who can contribute than trade a #37 for a 28 (soon to be) year old guy who is damaged goods and at best, has 5-7 years left in his tank. No thanks. I'll take the 21-23 year old wide receiver/tight end who can be on our franchise for 10-12 more years.

[Northman]

Your not really helping your credibility here.


Actually, i would agree with him. Ian was a beast for us last season.

[WaffleBoy]

Javon is overrated, Socal. He gets no seperation at all. He knows without Brett he will be exposed. That's why he wants out of Green Bay.

The Boy Wonder :super:

[SoCalBronco]

Yea, check our last 10 2nd round picks and let me know how many of them have done more than Walker in the NFL.

Our 2nd round hit rate in the last 5 years has been exactly 50%. Not bad. 50% is usually the average 1st round hit rate.

Walker's a damn good player Popps. Its just the injury thing and the age thing are legitimate concerns. I mean we're not just throwing things up in the air just to argue for the sake of arguing (like yavoon). These are real concerns.

[Requiem]

Yea, check our last 10 2nd round picks and let me know how many of them have done more than Walker in the NFL.

The value you place on Walker is too high and the value you place on #37 is too low.

[Popps]

Javon is overrated, Socal. He gets no seperation at all. He knows without Brett he will be exposed. That's why he wants out of Green Bay.

The Boy Wonder :super:

He's a huge YAC guy, which just shows how little you know of the matter.

Kind of like the last guy who claimed he was a "body catcher."

Gotta love these boards... say it and it's true.

[Popps]

The value you place on Walker is too high and the value you place on #37 is too low.

In the last 10+ years.... our best 2nd round pick was Portis.

Outside of that, you've got middle of the road guys like Ian Gold and Tatum Bell.... followed MOSTLY by Eric Brown and Pierce types.

Walker has already produced more than 70% of those guys. So, I won't be losing sleep over missing out on our next Paul Toviessi for a proven NFL product.

[Popps]

I love how everyone wants a homerun hitter for our offense.... and a pass-rushing monster for our defense ........

only they don't want to give up anything to get it. Suggest that we actually SPEND a high pick or SPEND some cap money on a premiere player, and it's like you're committing a mortal sin around here.

[Requiem]

Popps, may I ask how often you watch the Green Bay Packers play and in particular -- how often you've analyzed Javon Walker during those games?

Also, I'm for getting Javon on our team, but not for the #37 overall.

[Northman]

In the last 10+ years.... our best 2nd round pick was Portis.

Outside of that, you've got middle of the road guys like Ian Gold and Tatum Bell.... followed MOSTLY by Eric Brown and Pierce types.

Walker has already produced more than 70% of those guys. So, I won't be losing sleep over missing out on our next Paul Toviessi for a proven NFL product.


I agree but i also wonder if Javon would be that successful having Jake throwing him the ball. Jake isnt as accurate as Brett so even with a high profile Wideout im not sure he would succeed here. But, i would still take Javon in a heartbeat.

[baja]

2002 (rookie year) 319 yds 1 TD
2003 716 yards 9 TDs
2004 1382 yards 12 TDs (Pro Bowl)

Notice a pattern here?

He had more TDs in 2004 than Lelie has in his career, if I'm not mistaken.

Here's a freakish athlete who's proven his abilities with over 2000 yards, 21 TDs and a 16 YPC average after his rookie season. Who gives a **** if he can figure out how many apples Billy took from Susie.

So how many apples did Billy take from Susie... Just wondering.

.
.
.

[WaffleBoy]

He's a huge YAC guy, which just shows how little you know of the matter.

Kind of like the last guy who claimed he was a "body catcher."

Gotta love these boards... say it and it's true.

Watch the games. My twin brother is a HUGE Packer fan. We watch all the games. This is nothing new. Packers fans have known this for years about Javon lack of seperation. He was shutout for 3 quarters in the Lions game before he was lost for the rest of the year. Watch the games, not just looking up stats.

The Boy Wonder :super:

[HEAV]

No team is going to take Leile, knowing he is in the last year of his deal, for any high draft pick.

Only way he get's moved if the trading team and Ash agree on a new contract.

Ash has little value as trade bait and more value playing in 2006.

[DrFate]

Does this look like 15 times to you?

Walker (per year avg., not counting last year either)
51 catches, 806 yds, and 7 TDs

Lelie-42 catches, 752 yds, and 3 TDs
(thanks for the stats Herc)

I don't think the pro-Walker people are looking at averages. Walker only started 2 and 3 games his first 2 seasons (respectively). In 04 he went for almost 1400 yards and 12 TDs. That is what they are looking at.

Lelie hasn't had a breakout year of that caliber. And he took a step backwards last year (people have argued with me on this point, but from a stat-sheet perspective, it isn't a point you can argue).

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302233 - Walker
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302206 - Lelie

[Popps]

No team is going to take Leile, knowing he is in the last year of his deal, for any high draft pick.

Only way he get's moved if the trading team and Ash agree on a new contract.

Ash has little value as trade bait and more value playing in 2006.

The 49ers got a 3rd this year and a 4th for Llyod, who is, value-wise.. almost the same exact thing. So, we might be able to pull off something. But, a team would have to be nuts to give up much more.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I don't think the pro-Walker people are looking at averages. Walker only started 2 and 3 games his first 2 seasons (respectively). In 04 he went for almost 1400 yards and 12 TDs. That is what they are looking at.


Of course that's what they are looking at, and Lelie was stuck behind Rod, Shannon, and Eddie his first two seasons but we wouldn't want to mention that one either when talking about "Ashlie".

[SoCalBronco]

I don't think the pro-Walker people are looking at averages. Walker only started 2 and 3 games his first 2 seasons (respectively). In 04 he went for almost 1400 yards and 12 TDs. That is what they are looking at.

Lelie hasn't had a breakout year of that caliber. And he took a step backwards last year (people have argued with me on this point, but from a stat-sheet perspective, it isn't a point you can argue).

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302233 - Walker
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302206 - Lelie

Regarding the issue you raised on games started, Ash didnt start a single game his first year either. In year no. 2, he was sort of the co-no. 2 with Ed.

I certainly agree that Walker's best year is better than Lelie's but I dont think the difference was off the charts. almost 1400 vs. almost 1100, thats significant. 12 TD v. 7 TD, again significant, but not blowing anyone out of the water.

Ash did take a step back last year, although according to the staff he was much better in run blocking.

Walker is probably better at this point, although it should be mentioned that he had Favre throwing him the ball as opposed to Jake Plummer, who's forte isnt exactly the deep ball.

The torn ACL is a huge concern.

In sum, I dont think either player has significantly greater value than the other all things considered at this point, although there is still a little edge for Walker.

[Popps]

Watch the games. My twin brother is a HUGE Packer fan. We watch all the games. This is nothing new. Packers fans have known this for years about Javon lack of seperation. He was shutout for 3 quarters in the Lions game before he was lost for the rest of the year. Watch the games, not just looking up stats.

The Boy Wonder :super:

Oh, your twin brother watched him play? Well, never mind. I'll disregard that mountain of evidence out there that proves you wrong.

[Requiem]

Popps, may I ask how often you watch the Green Bay Packers play and in particular -- how often you've analyzed Javon Walker during those games?

Also, I'm for getting Javon on our team, but not for the #37 overall.

Well Popps, what say you?

[Popps]

12 TD v. 7 TD, again significant, but not blowing anyone out of the water.



Dude, Walker had 12 TDs in a season. Ashley has had 12 in his career.

I'd say it's a significant difference.

[Northman]

Dude, Walker had 12 TDs in a season. Ashley has had 12 in his career.

I'd say it's a significant difference.


Not too mention he was injured last year and who knows what his numbers would have been like.

[HEAV]

I getting a bad feeling about the Broncos 2006-07 team. Gwad let the draft go off without a hitch please.

[Popps]

Well Popps, what say you?

Had him on my fantasy team twice, so you tend to single out those players, as you probably know. (I had Lelie, too... pfft.) Green Bay has been a high profile team, so they've also played a ton of prime time games.

I've watched him play enough to know his upsides/downsides. I also remember him coming out of college, and read the scouting reports. I didn't get to watch him in pop-warner, or anything.

Not sure where this line of questioning is going. Are you questioning my credibility, counselor?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Not too mention he was injured last year and who knows what his numbers would have been like.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. He blew out his knee last year, that's reality.

[Popps]

Not too mention he was injured last year and who knows what his numbers would have been like.

Given his upward progress, physical talent and continued experience... there's no reason to think it would have been anything short of excellent.

He's a Bronco receiver, man. Watch what happens if we land this guy.

I can pull a Taco and blab all over the board about finally making a decent prediction.

;D

[SoCalBronco]

Gwad let the draft go off without a hitch please.

Dont hold your breath.

[Popps]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. He blew out his knee last year, that's reality.

That's productive.

You also could have tried, nya nya ny nya nyaaa.

Reality is also that guys come back from these things these days.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Reality is also that guys come back from these things these days.

Reality is that some also don't. It's not guaranteed that Walker will ever be the same player he was or could have become. That's a serious injury, and simply cannot assume that he will.

[clint7]

49ers vice president of player personnel Scot McCloughan said, "He does have some talent. He's more of a vertical guy, outside the numbers, and can stretch the field, but we had some issues with other things. (I'm) not saying he wouldn't fit in, but ... what kind of football player are we going to have when it's said and done?"

Wow. Harsh words about a guy who is a "#1 WR." :)

[Popps]

Reality is that some also don't. It's not guaranteed that Walker will ever be the same player he was or could have become. That's a serious injury, and simply cannot assume that he will.

I'll go with the majority, on this one. Most young guys are coming back fine from knee surgery, these days. Walker is 28. He'll be fine.... and let's remember, we're talking about a 2nd round draft pick for him.

Again, I'd hate to miss out on our next Terry Pierce for a chance at a proven NFL Pro Bowl talent.

[clint7]

Again, I'd hate to miss out on our next Terry Pierce for a chance at a proven NFL Pro Bowl talent.

Ha! LOL Ha!

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Again, I'd hate to miss out on our next Terry Pierce for a chance at a proven NFL Pro Bowl talent.

Yes Pro Bowl, that should erase all questions about him. Let's focus on a single season. Griese was an awesome QB why Denver ever let him get away after that 19/4 TD/Int season?

[DrFate]

IF we get Walker I certainly think the ACL is a concern. Popps is right that it isn't as bad as it used to be and Herc is right that not everyone comes back the same. MIA didn't seem to worry too much about Culpepper's knee when they made that deal. The Saints didn't worry too much about Brees' busted shoulder to give him the big dollars. That kind of thing is a risk you take.

The bottom line is Walker has been more productive. Heck, Stallworth has been more productive. I haven't said Lelie is a bad person, a bad player, or a guy who kicks his cat. But he isn't a red zone threat and his numbers haven't indicated he'll ever be a true #1 type WR. And know he is one step short of holding out. I can see why fans are down on him.

[Popps]

Let's focus on a single season.

You know, you can keep repeating a false statement as long as you want...

it won't become true.


I've already gone through a list of reasons BEYOND his Pro Bowl season why he's a guy with high upside for us. I've also stated that the year BEFORE his pro bowl season was one that most of us would be happy with, even for a #2 pick. It's better than we have right now with Lelie.

I'm hardly focusing on just one season, but you can keep typing that if you want.

[meangene]

If we are going to deal for Walker he is going to have to come to Denver for a full physical and agree to a long term deal before the draft. If he's not involved in negotiations soon this doesn't happen IMO.

If his knee checks out I'm all for this deal. He was on his way to becoming a perennial Pro Bowl player. Keep in mind that he was relatively inexperienced coming out of college so the fact that he took a year and a half for the light to go on is not surprising. We can still move back with our number one and have multiple first day picks to address DL and TE. We got an early 2nd and 3rd for the #22 pick, I could see us getting a late first and second for #15. That would still leave us with a late first, two late seconds, and a third. We can still grab another wideout on day one.

[Ray Finkle]

I am holding out hope for DW2 or White

[Popps]

If we are going to deal for Walker he is going to have to come to Denver for a full physical and agree to a long term deal before the draft. If he's not involved in negotiations soon this doesn't happen IMO.

If his knee checks out I'm all for this deal. He was on his way to becoming a perennial Pro Bowl player. Keep in mind that he was relatively inexperienced coming out of college so the fact that he took a year and a half for the light to go on is not surprising. We can still move back with our number one and have multiple first day picks to address DL and TE. We got an early 2nd and 3rd for the #22 pick, I could see us getting a late first and second for #15. That would still leave us with a late first, two late seconds, and a third. We can still grab another wideout on day one.

Bingo.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

You know, you can keep repeating a false statement as long as you want...

it won't become true.


You cite his career stats, and except for one season to hang your hat on, that's all Walker's got. As one of the people who say that Lelie doesn't do anything, you turn around and cite his second season as acceptable because it's ok for Ashley to put up similar numbers, which you say aren't good enough. But you're right, you also focus on the fact that some people do come back from ACL injuries, so JW should be in the clear.

[Popps]

You cite his career stats, and except for one season to hang your hat on, that's all Walker's got.

Wrong.


He had an extremely productive, 9 TD - 17 YPC season the prior year with Ashley Lelie-like yardage.

He also came out of school as a highly touted athlete with extreme upside, just lacking experience.

So, once again... you can re-type it, but it's not going to make it true.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Wrong.


He had an extremely productive, 9 TD - 17 YPC season the prior year with Ashley Lelie-like yardage.

So, once again... you can re-type it, but it's not going to make it true.

Do you read entire posts, or do you just take a single sentence and respond? Because if I look at my entire post, I see that I mentioned Javon's 2nd season and that he had similar numbers to what Lelie puts up. But those numbers aren't good enough. If they were, Denver wouldn't be out there looking for another WR and you wouldn't be baggin on Ashley, so it really doesn't strengthen your pro-Walker argument. But since you apparently need to get in the last word, you'll take one sentence out of context just so you can have something to respond to.

[MechanicalBull]

I'm all for getting Walker but not for #37 maybe a 3rd or a conditional depending on his injury. The Phins gave a mid rd pick in the 2nd for Culpepper.

Like others have said on here I don't see Lelie being traded since there isnt that much value out there for him at the moment unless he is packaged with draft picks.

[meangene]

It's a poor year for WR in this draft. Someone will trade for Lelie. I think SF will. If we deal for Walker we need to move him. His absence from the workout program and whining about TO tells you what kind of attitude he has now - imagine if we trade for and sign Walker.

[SoCalBronco]

It's a poor year for WR in this draft. Someone will trade for Lelie. I think SF will. .

SF no longer has a 2nd or a 3rd. Is Denver going to take their 4th for Ash? We have 90 4ths already.

I think we will find someone to give us a 3rd.

[Popps]

Do you read entire posts, or do you just take a single sentence and respond? Because if I look at my entire post, I see that I mentioned Javon's 2nd season and that he had similar numbers to what Lelie puts up. But those numbers aren't good enough. If they were, Denver wouldn't be out there looking for another WR and you wouldn't be baggin on Ashley, so it really doesn't strengthen your pro-Walker argument. But since you apparently need to get in the last word, you'll take one sentence out of context just so you can have something to respond to.

You challenged my stance, not the other way around. If you're going to claim that I'm basing my support of Walker on one season, I'm going to correct you.

If you disagree, disagree, it's a free forum... but don't tell me I'm doing something that I'm not. If you do, I'm going to correct you.

As for Lelie/Walker, the difference was that Walker went from that good season to post an outstanding one, where Lelie has just been treading water ever since.

[Popps]

SF no longer has a 2nd or a 3rd. Is Denver going to take their 4th for Ash? We have 90 4ths already.

I think we will find someone to give us a 3rd.

The more I think about it, you're probably right. Someone mentioned the weak WR class as a good supporting factor, too.

Plus, like I said, SF got a 3 and 4 (next year) for Lloyd, who probably grades out about the same, value-wise.

[DomCasual]

Apparently, we are going to give 37 to GB for Walker this upcoming week.
What makes you say that? Did I miss something?

[crazyhorse]

49ers | Team rejected trade involving Lelie
Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:02:42 -0700

Matt Maiocco, of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, reports the San Francisco 49ers rejected a trade with the Denver Broncos that involved Broncos WR Ashley Lelie. The Broncos were shopping Lelie for a second-round pick. 49ers vice president of player personnel Scot McCloughan said, "He does have some talent. He's more of a vertical guy, outside the numbers, and can stretch the field, but we had some issues with other things. (I'm) not saying he wouldn't fit in, but ... what kind of football player are we going to have when it's said and done?" He said the team would be interested if the Broncos' asking price drops dramatically

What!!!!!!!

You mean the 49ers aren't going to give up the 6th overall pick in the draft for Lelie and the #22?

What about what Talon said?

Taco said it was rumored since February.

Of course, I said...bwaaaaaahahahahahaha.

Looks like Crazy' was right all along. Huh, Alec? ;)

Lelie is a bust. The only ones who dont realize it, are the fans. It's why the Donks are shopping him, and it's why nobody's buyin'.

Let that be a lesson to ya.:thanku:

[Tombstone RJ]

What!!!!!!!

You mean the 49ers aren't going to give up the 6th overall pick in the draft for Lelie and the #22?

What about what Talon said?

Taco said it was rumored since February.

Of course, I said...bwaaaaaahahahahahaha.

Looks like Crazy' was right all along. Huh, Alec?

Lelie is a bust. The only ones who dont realize it, are the fans. It's why the Donks are shopping him. And it's why nobodies buyin'.

Let that be a lesson to ya.:thanku:

Lelie is a bust eh? Let me ask you one simple question: do ya think the chefs would want him?

Nuff said.

[Requiem]

Not sure where this line of questioning is going. Are you questioning my credibility, counselor?

Yeah. ;)

[crazyhorse]

Lelie is a bust eh? Let me ask you one simple question: do ya think the chefs would want him?

Nuff said.

No.

[Tombstone RJ]

No.

Bwaaaahahahahaha! Keep thinking that way, after all your team is gonna be sitting next to last of the AFCW this coming season. Its ok to be a chef fan, AND A LOSER. The two just generally mix well.

[baja]

What!!!!!!!

You mean the 49ers aren't going to give up the 6th overall pick in the draft for Lelie and the #22?

What about what Talon said?

Taco said it was rumored since February.

Of course, I said...bwaaaaaahahahahahaha.

Looks like Crazy' was right all along. Huh, Alec? ;)

Lelie is a bust. The only ones who dont realize it, are the fans. It's why the Donks are shopping him, and it's why nobody's buyin'.

Let that be a lesson to ya.:thanku:

So you gonna but a motor in that car some day soon?

[crazyhorse]

Bwaaaahahahahaha! Keep thinking that way, after all your team is gonna be sitting next to last of the AFCW this coming season. Its ok to be a chef fan, AND A LOSER. The two just generally mix well.


Thanks for the optimism. 31-27

[baja]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ
Lelie is a bust eh? Let me ask you one simple question: do ya think the chefs would want him?

Nuff said.

No.
__________

That's my biggest fear, Lelie to the Chiefs. Green to Lelie would haunt us for years.

[crazyhorse]

So you gonna but a motor in that car some day soon?

Recently set the engine in the car. Check the avy

[Popps]

The other thing about Walker is that he'd be a great fit for Jake. Big target, adjusts to the ball well, physical.

Jake is accurate enough, but he's no Dan Marino. Since we know he's our guy for the next couple of years, why not implement offensive weapons around him that would help our offense improve?

[DBroncos4life]

Thanks for the optimism. 31-27
AFC west champs

[DBroncos4life]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ
Lelie is a bust eh? Let me ask you one simple question: do ya think the chefs would want him?

Nuff said.

No.
__________

That's my biggest fear, Lelie to the Chiefs. Green to Lelie would haunt us for years.
Green is old he wont last much longer

[Tombstone RJ]

Thanks for the optimism. 31-27

Nice come back, loser.:cowgirl:

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ
Lelie is a bust eh? Let me ask you one simple question: do ya think the chefs would want him?

Nuff said.

No.
__________

That's my biggest fear, Lelie to the Chiefs. Green to Lelie would haunt us for years.

Yep. Only a loser chef fan WOULDN'T want Lelie. But, that's a chef fan for ya. Sad but true.

[SouthStndJunkie]

SF no longer has a 2nd or a 3rd. Is Denver going to take their 4th for Ash? We have 90 4ths already.

I think we will find someone to give us a 3rd.

SF has the 84th pick in the 3rd Round from Washington.

[SoCalBronco]

SF has the 84th pick in the 3rd Round from Washington.

My bad. I didnt know that. I'd take it.

[crazyhorse]

Green is old he wont last much longer

Not as old as Elway.

[meangene]

SF no longer has a 2nd or a 3rd. Is Denver going to take their 4th for Ash? We have 90 4ths already.

I think we will find someone to give us a 3rd.

I think so too. I didn't mean to imply that only SF would trade for him but only that they would trade something for him. A pretty early 4th from them wouldn't be too bad though. Or a third next year since they're gonna suck and we have a lot of picks this year.

[crazyhorse]

Yep. Only a loser chef fan WOULDN'T want Lelie. But, that's a chef fan for ya. Sad but true.

Dont be sad. It could cause wrinkles, so I hear.

[Requiem]

Why take Javon Walker when you can have Big Play baby?

[Ballhawk]

Why am I the only one that gets what a desaster for the Salary Cap JW come become. If it was just a 2nd and take a chance he recovers fine, but he is going to want to get paid now.

I guess Dale Carter and Ihop taught us nothing.

[Popps]

Why am I the only one that gets what a desaster for the Salary Cap JW come become. If it was just a 2nd and take a chance he recovers fine, but he is going to want to get paid now.

I guess Dale Carter and Ihop taught us nothing.

I'm guessing you're "the only one" because comparing Walker to Dale Carter is simply not a valid analogy.

[Tombstone RJ]

Dont be sad. It could cause wrinkles, so I hear.

Wow, another great come back.LOL

Face it, you'd love Lelie on your team. Just admit it, it's ok.:thanku:

[crazyhorse]

Wow, another great come back.LOL

Face it, you'd love Lelie on your team. Just admit it, it's ok.:thanku:

Can he tackle?

[Tombstone RJ]

Can he tackle?

Nope, but he'd be a great WR in your system. Fact is, Lelie's got all kinds of upside on the right team. Your offense (under Vermiel) would have made much better use of Lelie.

It's ok to talk about it. Really.

[baja]

Can he tackle?

I know you turn the ball over allot but should his tackling abilities be that high a priority?....

[clean]

Actually, the more accurate phrase would be "The Boy Fondler" given Waffle's history on this board.

Boy Blunder
Boy Blunderer
Boy Bonehead
Effervescent Elf
Erroneous Urchin

http://members.tripod.com/~AdamWest/vil.htm (http://members.tripod.com/%7EAdamWest/vil.htm)

Dick

[Ballhawk]

I'm guessing you're "the only one" because comparing Walker to Dale Carter is simply not a valid analogy.

Really, Dale Carter signs big contract and doesn't do squat for us= dead money for 4 years. We give Walker an 8 mill signing bonus and find out he has lost a step and can not cut like he use to= dead money for 4 years.

Ya makes no sense.

[Ballhawk]

We are where we are now because we stopped chasing big FA and throwing money at players with question marks. Stay the path Shanny. Do not do this!!

[Tombstone RJ]

Really, Dale Carter signs big contract and doesn't do squat for us= dead money for 4 years. We give Walker an 8 mill signing bonus and find out he has lost a step and can not cut like he use to= dead money for 4 years.

Ya makes no sense.


Wow, I'm gonna have to back Popps on this one. There's no viable comparison between bringing JW to Denver and bringing D. Carter to Denver.

[crazyhorse]

I know you turn the ball over allot but should his tackling abilities be that high a priority?....

He would have to be able to tackle because we dont need number 2/3 recievers on our team. We need defense. Other than that, we have little use for him. Maybe a gunner on special teams.

[Sassy]

Boy Blunder
Boy Blunderer
Boy Bonehead
Effervescent Elf
Erroneous Urchin

http://members.tripod.com/~AdamWest/vil.htm (http://members.tripod.com/%7EAdamWest/vil.htm)

Dick
Not to be nasty...but I need to put you on ignore again.
I can not handle your avatars. They're sick...and I don't think
"PG-13".

[Clockwork Orange]

Thanks for the optimism. 31-27

30-10
13-3
AFC West Champions
Won more playoff games this year than the Chefs have in the last 13.
Will be picking ahead of the Chefs in the first 3 rounds of next weeks draft.

;D

[crazyhorse]

30-10
13-3
AFC West Champions
Won more playoff games this year than the Chefs have in the last 13.
Will be picking ahead of the Chefs in the first 3 rounds of next weeks draft.

;D

Jake Plummer

[Clockwork Orange]

Jake Plummer

Threw more TD's and less INT's than TrINT. He was also selected for the Pro Bowl ahead of him. ^5

And actually, I forgot, the Broncos will be picking ahead of the Chefs in the first four rounds. I forgot that you guys traded your 4th rounder for a coach who's never put up better than a 10-6 season. :laugh:

[Tombstone RJ]

Jake Plummer

King Carl :rofl:

[baja]

Jake Plummer

Pro Bowl

[crazyhorse]

I forgot that you guys traded your 4th rounder for a coach who's never put up better than a 10-6 season. :laugh:

You've likely forgot he has more playoff wins than you do in the last 5 years, with a lesser team.

[Popps]

Really, Dale Carter signs big contract and doesn't do squat for us= dead money for 4 years. We give Walker an 8 mill signing bonus and find out he has lost a step and can not cut like he use to= dead money for 4 years.

Ya makes no sense.

Dude, Dale Carter was one of the most highly scrutinized signings in Bronco history. He was one of the most volatile, risky players we've ever given a big contract. He came with a ton of downside. We busted the bank on him, and we never should have.

Walker is a guy in his prime who had an injury. You're comparing apples to oranges to try to make a point.

You can't just say.... "see, we signed another guy and he didn't work out" to make a point. You've got to make a valid analogy... and once you do that, you'll have people around here reminding you that sometimes those risks pay off.

[crazyhorse]

Pro Bowl

Chiefs fans voted him in.

[Sassy]

I think Bob was sitting behind jake when that happened ;D

[Clockwork Orange]

You've likely forgot he has more playoff wins than you do in the last 5 years, with a lesser team.

I rememer that Dick ForMeals had won a Super Bowl not long before he joined the Chefs and couldn't manage to pull off so much as a single playoff win in his tenure there. Par for the course in KC.

Herm is perfect for you guys. A mediocre coach for a mediocre franchise. At least his postgame hissy fits will be a change up from Dicky's postgame blubbering.

[crazyhorse]

I think Bob was sitting behind jake when that happened ;D

I doubt it. He would have never turned his back on bob.

[baja]

Chiefs fans voted him in.

Are you going to tellme there is a motor in the car in your sig cause I don't believe it, not as high as that car sits.

[SoCalBronco]

I doubt it. He would have never turned his back on bob.

REP.

[crazyhorse]

I rememer that Dick ForMeals had won a Super Bowl not long before he joined the Chefs and couldn't manage to pull off so much as a single playoff win in his tenure there. Par for the course in KC.

Herm is perfect for you guys. A mediocre coach for a mediocre franchise. At least his postgame hissy fits will be a change up from Dicky's postgame blubbering.

Ya think you could win over 50% against a mediocre team, Being so good and all. But you cannot. Go figure

Have I already highjacked this thread or can you boys stay focused on Lelie a few posts longer? :)

Maybe you dont have any logical ammunition left. Lelie's not that good. Maybe you guys know it....deep down.

[Popps]

Not to be nasty...but I need to put you on ignore again.
I can not handle your avatars. They're sick...and I don't think
"PG-13".

Sassy,

You probably know this, but you can turn off Avtars in Options. Kind of a bummer that this is the only option... but that's what I had to do. I check into the forum at work sometimes, and I realized one day that it would easily look like I was at a porn site. Plus, even at home... I've got an 11 year old son that I'd rather not expose to some chick spreading her ass just quite yet.


Anyway, just a heads up.

[crazyhorse]

Are you going to tellme there is a motor in the car in your sig cause I don't believe it, not as high as that car sits.

It's on the lift.

[clint7]

Sassy,

You probably know this, but you can turn off Avtars in Options. Kind of a bummer that this is the only option... but that's what I had to do. I check into the forum at work sometimes, and I realized one day that it would easily look like I was at a porn site. Plus, even at home... I've got an 11 year old son that I'd rather not expose to some chick spreading her ass just quite yet.


Yep. This is the way to do it. TJ pointed the feature out to me awhile back when I too realized at work that someone walking past my desk might think I was surfin' porn during work hours. Don't want that. Afterall, I only surf porn on my lunch break. ;D

[Kaylore]

49ers | Team rejected trade involving Lelie
Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:02:42 -0700

Matt Maiocco, of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, reports the San Francisco 49ers rejected a trade with the Denver Broncos that involved Broncos WR Ashley Lelie. The Broncos were shopping Lelie for a second-round pick. 49ers vice president of player personnel Scot McCloughan said, "He does have some talent. He's more of a vertical guy, outside the numbers, and can stretch the field, but we had some issues with other things. (I'm) not saying he wouldn't fit in, but ... what kind of football player are we going to have when it's said and done?" He said the team would be interested if the Broncos' asking price drops dramatically
Wait, why didn't they just mention that it's all Jake Plummer's fault Lelie's production is down and he's really Sterling sharpe 2. I mean it is, right? It's all Jake's fault - just ask anyone on this board. What do two pro coaching staffs know about football anyway? :rofl:

[Clockwork Orange]

Ya think you could win over 50% against a mediocre team, Being so good and all. But you cannot. Go figure

Have I already highjacked this thread or can you boys stay focused on Lelie a few posts longer? :)

Maybe you dont have any logical ammunition left. Lelie's not that good. Maybe you guys know it....deep down.

I'm tired of talking about Lelie myself. He's obviously got a much higher opinion of himself than I do if he honestly believes that he deserves to be the #1 receiver on this team. I'd prefer them to move him now, but if he stays and plays out the final year of his contract, that's fine too.

I think it's much ado about nothing really. He's good at what he does, but not nearly as good as he obviously thinks he is or as good as some around here make him out to be. Some posters here would have you believe that he's the next Randy Moss and is just being unfairly held down by a system that isn't tailored to his strengths.

[Popps]

Yep. This is the way to do it. TJ pointed the feature out to me awhile back when I too realized at work that someone walking past my desk might think I was surfin' porn during work hours. Don't want that. Afterall, I only surf porn on my lunch break. ;D

Yea, he filled me in, too. Kind of a bummer, because I like seeing a lot of the non-porn avtars. I've obviously got nothing against hot women, either... it's just, there's a time and a place, imo.

[Sassy]

Sassy,

You probably know this, but you can turn off Avtars in Options. Kind of a bummer that this is the only option... but that's what I had to do. I check into the forum at work sometimes, and I realized one day that it would easily look like I was at a porn site. Plus, even at home... I've got an 11 year old son that I'd rather not expose to some chick spreading her ass just quite yet.


Anyway, just a heads up.
I do know that...but I just thought it was inappropriate...besides I like seeing other peoples...espcially the little guys in the bronco gear...
Granted, while some of the woman are a little more than pg-13, his are just plain sick.

[Popps]

I do know that...but I just thought it was inappropriate...besides I like seeing other peoples...espcially the little guys in the bronco gear...
Granted, while some of the woman are a little more than pg-13, his are just plain sick.

I never understood the whole porn avtar thing, myself. Not sure exactly what it's supposed to prove. The net is overflowing with porn if people want it, not like we need a reminder here.

I'm with you, I kind of like seeing people's kids, dogs, bronco related stuff... but the porn contingent seems to win out around here, and I just don't care enough to make a stink. I just turned it all off.

[OrangeShadow]

It's on the lift.

What year and model is that anyway?

[baja]

It's on the lift.

Oh, gotcha. It's gonna be beautiful!

[DrFate]

SF has the 84th pick in the 3rd Round from Washington.

All the homers say Lelie just needs to get away from Plummer. Let's see how he does catching passes from Alex Smith.

LOL

[Emancipator2]

I think Ashley Lelie is a very good WR. I want him to return to the Denver Broncos. I think you definitely want a WR on your team in his final contract year. You know he will have a great season.

Plus Ashley has great hands. I'm rooting for him and Jake to get better on the deep ball connection. As for the short and intermediate routes, I think Ashley came around due to them assigning him the routes. Gary Kubiak admitted that they didn't have Ashley running short and intermediate routes early and in the middle of the season.

[DomCasual]

I never understood the whole porn avtar thing, myself. Not sure exactly what it's supposed to prove. The net is overflowing with porn if people want it, not like we need a reminder here.

I'm with you, I kind of like seeing people's kids, dogs, bronco related stuff... but the porn contingent seems to win out around here, and I just don't care enough to make a stink. I just turned it all off.
I'm the same way. I work from home, and I find myself minimizing the Firefox window whenever I am on the OrangeMane and my wife or son come in the room. I just do it subconsciously, like I am ashamed of them seeing it. The bottom line is that it doesn't make sense to anyone why a mostly-naked woman has anything to do with the Denver Broncos.

It's not a huge deal for me - I could just disable avatars if it bothered me that much. It's more of an irritant. It just doesn't seem necessary. Whomever made the point earlier about being able to find porn anytime you wanted hit the nail on the head. When I want to read about the news, I go to a place like CNN.com. When I want to read the day's sports headlines, I'll go to ESPN or CBS Sportsline. When I want Broncos discussion, I come here. If I wanted porn, I would go to the wealth of porn sites on the net. I just don't see a reason to mix them up.

[crazyhorse]

What year and model is that anyway?

64-1/2 Mustang.

One of the 1st. It was made in May of 64. The 1st Mustangs were titled as 65's. But because they actually came out in the middle of the 1964 model year have become affectionately known as a 64.5.

This is one of the 1st 64.5s.

[BroncoMan4ever]

I am all for sending Lelie and a 3rd for Walker. But with Walker's injury i think Denver still better draft a solid player to back up Rod and Walker. I am thinking Stovall or maybe Haas

[Merlin]

Rather than giving up a 3rd and Lelie for Walker, I would prefer to keep Lelie and find a WR in next yr's draft of FA. Walker is coming back from a severe injury, and even if he completely recovers, it is highly unlikely that he will put up better numbers than Lelie next yr. In fact Lelie will more likely put up much better numbers since he is not recovering from an injury, and he will be motivated due to it being a contract yr.

[Odysseus]

I don't like that trade. Walker is coming off a surgical knee. He's only had one good year and he had Brett Favre throwing the ball to him when he did. Lelie for Walker straight up would be alright, but there's no reason for us to sweeten the deal. Keep Lelie and draft a WR with that third rounder. We'll get Ashley playing for a free agent contract while the kid learns the ropes next year. Then we'll get a comp pick for Lelie in 2008.

I have no idea why this isn't the obvious to everybody smart play.

[SportinOne]

I'm sure that this thread is all but completely off topic by now...

However, i'd just like comment on our WR situation next year.

Would i be right in assuming that we will have either Lelie or Walker next year with zero possibility of having both and a small chance of having neither?

I have a friend who's a packer fan, and he said HE is demanding at least a 2nd for Walker (yes he's the GM lol). I said there is no way in heck we'll do that.. And he said well then it won't happen unless Thompson is a complete... he stopped,... then said.. yeah.. i could see it.

There's absolutely no way we should be giving up more than a 3rd for Walker, let alone a 3rd AND Lelie. Walker is damaged goods. Hopefully he can be great again, but there is no guarantee.

With all that aside, does anyone else just have that feeling that one of these days we're gonna see an update flash accross the bottom of an espn channel saying we traded Lelie for Walker in some fashion?

[ludo21]

I'm sure that this thread is all but completely off topic by now...

However, i'd just like comment on our WR situation next year.

Would i be right in assuming that we will have either Lelie or Walker next year with zero possibility of having both and a small chance of having neither?

I have a friend who's a packer fan, and he said HE is demanding at least a 2nd for Walker (yes he's the GM lol). I said there is no way in heck we'll do that.. And he said well then it won't happen unless Thompson is a complete... he stopped,... then said.. yeah.. i could see it.

There's absolutely no way we should be giving up more than a 3rd for Walker, let alone a 3rd AND Lelie. Walker is damaged goods. Hopefully he can be great again, but there is no guarantee.

With all that aside, does anyone else just have that feeling that one of these days we're gonna see an update flash accross the bottom of an espn channel saying we traded Lelie for Walker in some fashion?


Well a second seems like the decision as of now. Last I heard it was our 37 pick (UGHH)

But the only way i see us trading for Javon is if LElie gets traded. As of now i really doubt a Lelie for Javon trade is done at all in any fashion.

The worst the could happen is that we have neither players next year, it is my hope that we either give Lelie another shot, or trade for Javon, because w/out either of them, we are down to some real weak WR options....

[Odysseus]

I never understood the whole porn avtar thing, myself. Not sure exactly what it's supposed to prove. The net is overflowing with porn if people want it, not like we need a reminder here.

I'm with you, I kind of like seeing people's kids, dogs, bronco related stuff... but the porn contingent seems to win out around here, and I just don't care enough to make a stink. I just turned it all off.

I think it all reflects freedom of speech and doesn't bother me. I think it just tells where a person is coming from. I think the less rules the better because that IS the problem with modern life. The price of freedom of speech is listening.

Spend some time in an isolation tank. You'll find out what you are made of in a hurry. You'll start lusting for stuff you take for granted. America is one big steaming humping pile of addictions. You don't think about stuff because it's available but when things are gone the monster takes over and some of the strangest things suddenly become important.

Of note whenever I am on the Orangemane and someone passes behind me they will stop and literally scream "Go back? Whose that chic? What kind of website is this?" It's wierd having men herding around my computer screen like overgrown sperm because of a picture. I could take over the world with a suitcase full of tits. Iraqi men are some of the horniest bastiges God ever created. Bomb the place with blondes. When the divorces kick in we'll own the place.

[Drek]

**** it, use Lelie to transition. Take a WR fairly early, Holmes or Jackson if we can move down to the later first, Stovall would be great in the late second.

Bring in a bunch of WRs, heavy competition, just like DL and DB last year. Rod and Ash back again for one last season if no one steps up, but then when Ashley walks we'll have guys with one year of experience ready to step up.

[ludo21]

**** it, use Lelie to transition. Take a WR fairly early, Holmes or Jackson if we can move down to the later first, Stovall would be great in the late second.

Bring in a bunch of WRs, heavy competition, just like DL and DB last year. Rod and Ash back again for one last season if no one steps up, but then when Ashley walks we'll have guys with one year of experience ready to step up.


I did a Mock with us taking Haas, Hagan, and Bloom. That would be a fun TC!

[Emancipator2]

Lelie won't be headed any where. He'll be the #2 Wr for the Denver Broncos. Denver better not allow this 2006 Pro Bowl WR to leave their midst.

[Popps]

Lelie won't be headed any where. He'll be the #2 Wr for the Denver Broncos. Denver better not allow this 2006 Pro Bowl WR to leave their midst.

:rofl:

[ludo21]

Lelie won't be headed any where. He'll be the #2 Wr for the Denver Broncos. Denver better not allow this 2006 Pro Bowl WR to leave their midst.


ROFL!

I would love to keep Lelie as well. (But if we can get Javon, then Lelie is as good as gone)


I hope if Lelie stays, the team will use Lelie on slants more often. When he ran other routes, he seemed to run them fine, im not sure what the deal is....

[Emancipator2]

:rofl:
I'm glad I could amuse you. :approve:

I did say I was a homer. I don't mind that term.

Ashley Lelie caught every pass that hit his hands this year. In the early part of the season, they had him running go and fly routes all day. At the end of the season, Gary Kubiak came out and admitted they weren't using Lelie in the short and intermediate routes. He said they would begin to use him. At that point, they had him run those routes and Lelie :sunshine: shined.

Everyone was saying he couldn't run the short and intermediate routes. It wasn't that he couldn't run them.........they were calling for him to run deep routes all day. Opponents were putting their number 1 cornerback on Lelie which opened Rod up on the other teams #2 Wr. But when they called upon Ash to run the short and intermediate in the last 3 games and the playoffs. No team could handle him. :thanku:

[Popps]

I'm glad I could amuse you. :approve:

I did say I was a homer. I don't mind that term.


It's all good, man. What do I know. I thought Watts and Bell would be our offensive stars by now.

[Odysseus]

**** it, use Lelie to transition. Take a WR fairly early, Holmes or Jackson if we can move down to the later first, Stovall would be great in the late second.

Bring in a bunch of WRs, heavy competition, just like DL and DB last year. Rod and Ash back again for one last season if no one steps up, but then when Ashley walks we'll have guys with one year of experience ready to step up.

I think Watts, Adams, Devoe, and Terrell all deserve a shot at making the roster. I would not mind them competing for that either. A third round pick won't stay on your practice squad though. Somebody will roster him. How we draft often tells who we'll probably cut.

I think we need a KR/PR/WR. He could contribute immeadiately. This would be an instant value pick. We'll probably draft him too high but he will be worth it. If he's got speed and can tackle he could be another gunner. The game is about field position THEN points. We need stability at this position. If he's got heart maybe he's Steve Smith in disguise. Bring on the midget wide reciever!

[Emancipator2]

It's all good, man. What do I know. I thought Watts and Bell would be our offensive stars by now.
Now you made me feel funny with my knowledge ;) . I thought the same thing about them too.

(But that's what happens to homers like me. :approve: )

[Play2win]

ROFL!

I would love to keep Lelie as well. (But if we can get Javon, then Lelie is as good as gone)


I hope if Lelie stays, the team will use Lelie on slants more often. When he ran other routes, he seemed to run them fine, im not sure what the deal is....

Now that Kubes is gone, maybe ASH will be allowed to run slants and crosses... ;D

[Taco John]

I've always been a bit skeptical of Bell once I saw how his helmet fit him.

[Hulamau]

I'm glad I could amuse you. :approve:

I did say I was a homer. I don't mind that term.

Ashley Lelie caught every pass that hit his hands this year. In the early part of the season, they had him running go and fly routes all day. At the end of the season, Gary Kubiak came out and admitted they weren't using Lelie in the short and intermediate routes. He said they would begin to use him. At that point, they had him run those routes and Lelie :sunshine: shined.

Everyone was saying he couldn't run the short and intermediate routes. It wasn't that he couldn't run them.........they were calling for him to run deep routes all day. Opponents were putting their number 1 cornerback on Lelie which opened Rod up on the other teams #2 Wr. But when they called upon Ash to run the short and intermediate in the last 3 games and the playoffs. No team could handle him. :thanku:


Welcome, someone who can put two and two together is always welcome on the mane!

[Kaylore]

I've always been a bit skeptical of Bell once I saw how his helmet fit him.
LOL

[Drek]

I think Watts, Adams, Devoe, and Terrell all deserve a shot at making the roster. I would not mind them competing for that either. A third round pick won't stay on your practice squad though. Somebody will roster him. How we draft often tells who we'll probably cut.

Lets be honest, Adams and Devoe work hard, but they're league average #3's at best and probably won't be a whole lot more. Terrell and Watts both have the talent to be something more, but again, probably won't amount to ****. I'd have no problems taking two WRs in the first day if we're getting the guys we want, and obviously they won't be going to the PS, so the other four will be on notice that two of the group probably won't see opening day. My guess is that if that happened Terrell and Adams would make it.

[Odysseus]

Lets be honest, Adams and Devoe work hard, but they're league average #3's at best and probably won't be a whole lot more. Terrell and Watts both have the talent to be something more, but again, probably won't amount to ****. I'd have no problems taking two WRs in the first day if we're getting the guys we want, and obviously they won't be going to the PS, so the other four will be on notice that two of the group probably won't see opening day. My guess is that if that happened Terrell and Adams would make it.

I don't know. I don't like the way Adams helmet fits. That Devoe looks great in his helmet every now and again. Watts definitely has a lopside helmet. I don't have a problem with bringing in WR but the Broncos never seem to get that part of drafting figured out. Maybe they should draft some cornerbacks and convert them in WR. Hey! That might actually work. :yayaya:

[Tombstone RJ]

64-1/2 Mustang.

One of the 1st. It was made in May of 64. The 1st Mustangs were titled as 65's. But because they actually came out in the middle of the 1964 model year have become affectionately known as a 64.5.

This is one of the 1st 64.5s.

This pony is the only reason I respect you as a poster. Its certainly not for the NFL team you support...:~ohyah!:

[crazyhorse]

I've always been a bit skeptical of Bell once I saw how his helmet fit him.

Maybe he should stuff a pair of socks in there. It worked on your wife. ;)

[BroncoInferno]

Yes Pro Bowl, that should erase all questions about him. Let's focus on a single season. Griese was an awesome QB why Denver ever let him get away after that 19/4 TD/Int season?

It isn't just one season Herc. He had 700+ yards and 9 TDs his second year, which is pretty damn good. He is a better player than Lelie; that is stone cold fact. And don't give me that Farve stuff. He has been throwing up INTs as bad as Plummer circa Arizona the last 2 or 3 years. The thing about Walker is, he's more than a one trick pony. He gets open underneath AND can go deep, which is what makes him more valuable to us than Lelie. I'm with Popps on this one. #37 is not likely to be as good of a player as Walker. It's possible, but not likely. As far as Walker's age goes, he is still 27 at the moment but will be 28 before the season. Nevertheless, he is a total of 15 months older than Ash, so that is getting overplayed here.

[Ballhawk]

It isn't just one season Herc. He had 700+ yards and 9 TDs his second year, which is pretty damn good. He is a better player than Lelie; that is stone cold fact. And don't give me that Farve stuff. He has been throwing up INTs as bad as Plummer circa Arizona the last 2 or 3 years. The thing about Walker is, he's more than a one trick pony. He gets open underneath AND can go deep, which is what makes him more valuable to us than Lelie. I'm with Popps on this one. #37 is not likely to be as good of a player as Walker. It's possible, but not likely. As far as Walker's age goes, he is still 27 at the moment but will be 28 before the season. Nevertheless, he is a total of 15 months older than Ash, so that is getting overplayed here.

Walker would be the best thing to ever happen to this Franchise! He is easily a top 3 WR and should be paid like one. I have no problem paying the guy 40 Mil over the next 6 years, even if we have play him at # 3 WR for a year while he returns to full strength. By that time he will be 29 and ready to go, and he can return to his 2004 form of catching 3 or less balls in half the games he plays in. Even if Jake throws a 100 less times per year than Farve, I still fully expect JW to get a few 150+ yard games and post 1300 yards, deep down we all know Jake is more of a pure passer than Brett. The best thing about this is that if he was a one year wonder or does not recover fully we can always eat the 8 mil signing bonus as we have had plenty of practice of eating big money (See Griese, Carter, Ihop).

Yep the more I think of it the more I believe that we should send GB a higher pick than Philly paid for TO. I mean hell JW is not the cancer TO is. He may have attacked his QB and the city and the Fans, but he wanted more money is all. No reason the fans should not embrace this guy, his character is above reproach. Bottom line we have been without a real WR outside of Rod that we should gamble all just to get one...Walker would be the best thing for this franchise.

Im all in.

[Popps]

Walker would be the best thing to ever happen to this Franchise! He is easily a top 3 WR and should be paid like one. I have no problem paying the guy 40 Mil over the next 6 years, even if we have play him at # 3 WR for a year while he returns to full strength. By that time he will be 29 and ready to go, and he can return to his 2004 form of catching 3 or less balls in half the games he plays in. Even if Jake throws a 100 less times per year than Farve, I still fully expect JW to get a few 150+ yard games and post 1300 yards, deep down we all know Jake is more of a pure passer than Brett. The best thing about this is that if he was a one year wonder or does not recover fully we can always eat the 8 mil signing bonus as we have had plenty of practice of eating big money (See Griese, Carter, Ihop).

Yep the more I think of it the more I believe that we should send GB a higher pick than Philly paid for TO. I mean hell JW is not the cancer TO is. He may have attacked his QB and the city and the Fans, but he wanted more money is all. No reason the fans should not embrace this guy, his character is above reproach. Bottom line we have been without a real WR outside of Rod that we should gamble all just to get one...Walker would be the best thing for this franchise.

Im all in.


Great stuff.

People around here are going to have to get over the Blue-light Syndrome.
Every star we have can't be an undrafted free agent that we're paying $6.75 an hour. It's funny to me that Champ is everyone's favorite player, and dude is eating up a massive chunk of our salary cap.

That's how it goes, y'all. Sometimes you have to pay people. Sometimes you have to use draft picks to acquire people. We're not going to destroy the franchise by signing Walker to a large, but well structured contract.

All I hear is bitching about how Jake needs a top weapon. Well, there's one for the taking. We just might not get to be such tight-asses about it.
This isn't Kenard Lang, Folks. This is a difference-maker.

[BroncoInferno]

Walker would be the best thing to ever happen to this Franchise! He is easily a top 3 WR and should be paid like one. I have no problem paying the guy 40 Mil over the next 6 years, even if we have play him at # 3 WR for a year while he returns to full strength. By that time he will be 29 and ready to go, and he can return to his 2004 form of catching 3 or less balls in half the games he plays in. Even if Jake throws a 100 less times per year than Farve, I still fully expect JW to get a few 150+ yard games and post 1300 yards, deep down we all know Jake is more of a pure passer than Brett. The best thing about this is that if he was a one year wonder or does not recover fully we can always eat the 8 mil signing bonus as we have had plenty of practice of eating big money (See Griese, Carter, Ihop).

Yep the more I think of it the more I believe that we should send GB a higher pick than Philly paid for TO. I mean hell JW is not the cancer TO is. He may have attacked his QB and the city and the Fans, but he wanted more money is all. No reason the fans should not embrace this guy, his character is above reproach. Bottom line we have been without a real WR outside of Rod that we should gamble all just to get one...Walker would be the best thing for this franchise.

Im all in.

Walker is better than Lelie and probably any player available @ 37. Players usually recover from ACLs these days. 22 TDs his last two full seasons. And T.O. is a poor example. His days with SF were over, but his agent screwed up and didn't file the paper work on time. They didn't get any where near his market value had it not been obvious that SF wasn't going to bring him back combined with his asshole reputation. And Farve deserved to get attacked, players have no business sticking their nose in the contract situations of other teammates. Farve was in the wrong there, not Walker.

[BroncoInferno]

Great stuff.

People around here are going to have to get over the Blue-light Syndrome.
Every star we have can't be an undrafted free agent that we're paying $6.75 an hour. It's funny to me that Champ is everyone's favorite player, and dude is eating up a massive chunk of our salary cap.

That's how it goes, y'all. Sometimes you have to pay people. Sometimes you have to use draft picks to acquire people. We're not going to destroy the franchise by signing Walker to a large, but well structured contract.

All I hear is b****ing about how Jake needs a top weapon. Well, there's one for the taking. We just might not get to be such tight-asses about it.
This isn't Kenard Lang, Folks. This is a difference-maker.

Good post, Popps, except the Lang remark. Lang had 7 and 8 sacks his two seasons before being asked to move to OLB last year, and I think he'll post similar numbers for us back at his natural position. That would be solid and better than what Pryce gave us.

Back to Walker...you are right. People are acting like pick 37 is too much to give up for him. Why? How often is a 2nd round pick as good of a player as Walker? Rarely. Yes, he was injured. And we will be getting a cut off rate on that, because if healthy he'd easily be worth a 1st rounder. People need to try and be more realistic about what kind of player Walker is and what sort of palyer we are likely to get @ 37.

[Popps]

People are acting like pick 37 is too much to give up for him. Why? How often is a 2nd round pick as good of a player as Walker? Rarely.

No way, dude! I've done 734 mock drafts and we're going to get a franchise player at 37!

Do you really want to risk trading away our next Eric Brown?

[BroncoInferno]

No way, dude! I've done 734 mock drafts and we're going to get a franchise player at 37!

Do you really want to risk trading away our next Eric Brown?

People get caught in pre-draft excitement (guilty as charged on my end), and work out these projections and identify players they love and assume they'll be Pro Bowl studs, when the reality is that once you get out of round 1 you are just hoping to find a solid starter or two, and if they end up being an Anquan Boldin you just thank your lucky stars and roll with it. But that is not the norm. Is it possible that a guy @37 will be a Pro Bowl stud? Sure. Is it likely? No.

[Ballhawk]

People get caught in pre-draft excitement (guilty as charged on my end), and work out these projections and identify players they love and assume they'll be Pro Bowl studs, when the reality is that once you get out of round 1 you are just hoping to find a solid starter or two, and if they end up being an Anquan Boldin you just thank your lucky stars and roll with it. But that is not the norm. Is it possible that a guy @37 will be a Pro Bowl stud? Sure. Is it likely? No.

I could care less if we sent our 1st, what I do not want is to sign damaged goods to 40 million. You can show me all the cases you want of guys who have recovered but it is not 100% that he will be as he was. If you agree that we should get this guy, then you are agreeing that we should pay him, because he wont play without a new contract putting him in top 10 WRs.

[Popps]

he wont play without a new contract putting him in top 10 WRs.

Did he tell you that?

How do you know he won't sign a nice long-term deal that is cap friendly?

I just love how people think our front office is just suddenly going to go dumb.

We've managed to sign players to smart contracts for years, and suddenly, we're just going to forget how to? We're going to back up a dump-truck full of money on his front lawn and ruin the franchise?

Big ****ing deal. So we pay a guy a little money. Let me give me weekly reminder that this money will not be coming out of your OWN personal bank account. This is a sports franchise who's job it is to win championships by spending gobs of money. This isn't a contest to see who can sign the cheapest players. It's a contest to sign the best.

We've got plenty of space to get him a contract, so don't be surprised if it happens.

I'll be thrilled.

[Ballhawk]

No the money does not come out of my pocket, but it effects my team, so I think Im allowed to have an opinion.

Also, JW did not tell me that he wanted more money but he has told anyone who would listen that he would not play under his current contract and that he wanted to be paid like a top 5 WR.

Sign him to a cap friendly deal? What a brillant idea!! This is so easy to do that every player in the league has one. Did JW tell you he would sign such a deal? Because I do not think he has mentioned that to anyone else either.

[Popps]

Sign him to a cap friendly deal? What a brillant idea!! This is so easy to do that every player in the league has one. Did JW tell you he would sign such a deal? Because I do not think he has mentioned that to anyone else either.

Well, Champ Bailey didn't tell me, either... but he managed to sign.

No problem, though. I'm sure we'll find a big-time play-maker for Todd Devoe money.

[GreatWhiteBronco]

well, i had Javon Walker on my fantasy football team for his big year so i saw a lot of his games... i am completely sold on him. the reason i took him in the first place was because Cris Carter said he was about to become an elite receiver in the NFL. yeah, Cris Carter, sketchy... but he WAS a great receiver. yeah, he doesn't get great separation but i think the point is missed in that his role with the Packers was similar to that of Ed McCaffrey's in Denver. use his size and frame to shield off defenders from the ball. and he MORE than makes up for his 'lack of separation' with his toughness and ability to catch lasers in tiny windows, especially in the red zone. i'm all for getting Javon, i think it would be a bigtime upgrade over Lelie... as for the ACL tear, sure, it's a question mark, but take a look at what Steve Smith did last year. i'm in the great risk=great reward camp.

[Popps]

When you're the kind of athlete he is, separation isn't always 100% necessary. Look at his stats. He had something like 7 catches of 40 yards or more last (full) season. He had a ridiculous YPC average. I'm not sure what the fuss about separation is when a guy is putting up those kinds of numbers. I guess people have to bitch about something.

Chris Carter was right. Walker was on his way to elite status. He may be slowed a bit his first year back, but he'll be there again. He's the kind of playmaker we need in this offense and a perfect fit for Plummer.

[Merlin]

...deep down we all know Jake is more of a pure passer than Brett...
Could you please elaborate? I like Jake, but your statement raises a number of questions.

[SkinRamon]

Man we are getting shutdown left and right. I think everybody is getting alittle gun-shy after seeing the way we Raped the Redskins.

Screw it, we still have Champ Bailey... ;D
Lord forbid the trade actually worked out for both parties involved...Broncos shored up their pass d and the Skins got a 1500 runner...Tatum Bell is not the answer if you think that's what makes the trade uneven.

[SkinRamon]

Oh and sorry we couldn't get you guys a Top 5 pick this year by going 10-6.

[Florida_Bronco]

Lord forbid the trade actually worked out for both parties involved...Broncos shored up their pass d and the Skins got a 1500 runner...Tatum Bell is not the answer if you think that's what makes the trade uneven.

We got the best cornerback in the league from you AND a second round pick for that 1500 yard runner. Tatum Bell ran for almost 1000 yards in a backup role while making many game changing plays like in that game against your foreskins ;)

You would have gotten the short end of the stick had the trade been Bailey for Portis straight up, the fact that we got your 2nd round pick as well means we just raped you.

[Mediator12]

Lord forbid the trade actually worked out for both parties involved...Broncos shored up their pass d and the Skins got a 1500 runner...Tatum Bell is not the answer if you think that's what makes the trade uneven.

Well, Bell had a whole yard better YPC, eight TD's to Portis 11, and just 600 less on 150+ less carries. He is producing quite well thank you and Champ was All-pro with several serious injuries ;D

[Lidderer]

Ignoring the accuracy of Jake over Favre or Favre over Jake(which arguements are nigh impossible to truly make):

Walker: 130 catches in 218 attempts over the past 3(technically 2) years: good enough for 60%.

Lelie: 132 catches in 270 attempts over the past 3 years: awful enough for 48%.

If we wanna include DVOA:

Lelie has been 24.1% better than an AVERAGE reciever. Walker has been 40.1% better.


Yes, these measures are sketchy, but much better than "ashley is faster and I think he will be great with someone else at the helm"--which is so much speculation and inanity.

[SkinRamon]

We got the best cornerback in the league from you AND a second round pick for that 1500 yard runner. Tatum Bell ran for almost 1000 yards in a backup role while making many game changing plays like in that game against your foreskins ;)

You would have gotten the short end of the stick had the trade been Bailey for Portis straight up, the fact that we got your 2nd round pick as well means we just raped you.
Let Tatum Bell try getting 1000 yards as the primary runner without riding on the hard work of Mike Anderson and see if it was worth it.

[Bronco LB 59]

SkinRamon has been routinely seen on Charger boards talking crap about the Broncos and he gives hand jobs to our rival fans.

I love the fact our team bothers him so much. We must be doing something right.

[SkinRamon]

Well, Bell had a whole yard better YPC, eight TD's to Portis 11, and just 600 less on 150+ less carries. He is producing quite well thank you and Champ was All-pro with several serious injuries ;D
He does most that after Mike Anderson pounds the crap out of the opposition. Tatum Bell cannot thrive as a feature back. With the success you've had with backs, I'm not entirely unsure you needed to use that 2nd rounder on Bell anyways...

I'm not a Bailey hater. I think he's terrific and he was great for our community. I'm just saying on the whole the trade benefitted both sides.

[Mediator12]

He does most that after Mike Anderson pounds the crap out of the opposition. Tatum Bell cannot thrive as a feature back. With the success you've had with backs, I'm not entirely unsure you needed to use that 2nd rounder on Bell anyways...

I'm not a Bailey hater. I think he's terrific and he was great for our community. I'm just saying on the whole the trade benefitted both sides.

Sure it did. But, Denver has got more out of those two than WAS has got out of Portis alone. Those are facts you can not deny.

[SkinRamon]

We valued Portis more than we did Bailey given the fact that we had Smoot at the time and there was a good FA market for corners that year, Springs being the eventual replacement.

We compensated you what we thought would ensure that you'd send him to us as opposed to another team. Remember, Portis was not returning as a Bronco no matter what.

[freak6]

He does most that after Mike Anderson pounds the crap out of the opposition.

Completely wrong, Tatum's ypc goes down as the game progresses, significantly.

If Tatum Bell were the feature back, he would rush for over 1500 yards. Can he handle the beating and is he tough enough to be an every down back like Terrell Davis.

Not yet, and that is why he isn't the feature back.

[SkinRamon]

Completely wrong, Tatum's ypc goes down as the game progresses, significantly.

If Tatum Bell were the feature back, he would rush for over 1500 yards. Can he handle the beating and is he tough enough to be an every down back like Terrell Davis.

Not yet, and that is why he isn't the feature back.
Feel free to correct me but what about the Eagles game and the regular season Pats game. Thought that was a pretty good example of Bell's best efforts outside of the Skins game of course;)

[Lidderer]

Completely wrong, Tatum's ypc goes down as the game progresses, significantly.



This isn't really true; he averages 5.0 in the 4th quarter(compared to 4.7 and 4.4 in the 1st and 2nd quarters, respectively), and while that's only from a sample size of 38 carries, it's still saying something.

Even breaking down the first half and 2nd half reveals: 4.5 to 6.1 ypc.

Perhaps you mean his ypc goes down as his involvement in the game progresses, which might be true to an extent, but since he rarely had games where he carried over 10 times it's hard to judge.

[Popps]

Ignoring the accuracy of Jake over Favre or Favre over Jake(which arguements are nigh impossible to truly make):

Walker: 130 catches in 218 attempts over the past 3(technically 2) years: good enough for 60%.

Lelie: 132 catches in 270 attempts over the past 3 years: awful enough for 48%.

If we wanna include DVOA:

Lelie has been 24.1% better than an AVERAGE reciever. Walker has been 40.1% better.


Yes, these measures are sketchy, but much better than "ashley is faster and I think he will be great with someone else at the helm"--which is so much speculation and inanity.

People around here have been saying Favre couldn't hit the broad side of a barn for the last year or so. So, I don't expect to hear anyone saying that it's all Favre's doing that Walker had such good numbers.

Walker is a fighter. He catches balls whether they're well thrown or not.
Lelie DID get better at fighting for the ball, but it's not his nature. He needs to go play for the Rams. He never was our kind of receiver.

[SkinRamon]

This isn't really true; he averages 5.0 in the 4th quarter(compared to 4.7 and 4.4 in the 1st and 2nd quarters, respectively), and while that's only from a sample size of 38 carries, it's still saying something.

Even breaking down the first half and 2nd half reveals: 4.5 to 6.1 ypc.

Perhaps you mean his ypc goes down as his involvement in the game progresses, which might be true to an extent, but since he rarely had games where he carried over 10 times it's hard to judge.
So that helps my argument about Bell's big play-ability being dependent upon Mike Anderson's wearing down the defense leaving them vulnerable to Bell's speed over the course of the game.

[Florida_Bronco]

Tatum Bell cannot thrive as a feature back. With the success you've had with backs

I just laugh when people (other Bronco fans included) make this statement. There is absolutely zero basis for this argument and yet people act like it's a proven fact. :rofl:

Let's at least give him a chance as the featured back before we declare him unfit for our needs.

[DBroncos4life]

So that helps my argument about Bell's big play-ability being dependent upon Mike Anderson's wearing down the defense leaving them vulnerable to Bell's speed over the course of the game.
Is that what you saw in the Skins game this year?

[Lidderer]

So that helps my argument about Bell's big play-ability being dependent upon Mike Anderson's wearing down the defense leaving them vulnerable to Bell's speed over the course of the game.

Ya, I think Bell's pretty mediocre as anything more than a limited-carry guy.

[SkinRamon]

Is that what you saw in the Skins game this year? No really ? Bell had a great game no question about it. Regardless, the observation about Anderson and Bell still holds true for that game as well.