950 The Fan reports Denver has granted Ashley Lelie permission to seek a trade

[montrose]

http://www.fan950.com/home/audio_player_skinned_20_20.html?dir=sportsupdate&topimage=http://www.fan950.com/images/home/audioplayers/gkarl_top.gif&ShowName=20_20_Sports_Updates&filename=PLAYOFFS_READY.MP3

[ro_50]

Wow. Please come here Javon Walker.

[MajikMan7]

good news!

[ludo21]

good news!


yeah, our emerging WR and best deep threat gone, GREAT news. ROFL!

.........right


I hope that a Lelie for another vet WR is in the works, or else i wont feel good about our WR corp at all.

Watts will come on, Devoe will get better, as will Adams, and Terrell, but i dont think it will be enough to equal Lelies production.

[GonzoLays]

Trade him to the Redskins for Santana Moss and next year's first. They have been known to make a blunder or two when trading.

[Ballhawk]

Must mean we made a deal for JW or Stallworth...dont see shanny letting go without a vet in place.

[BroncoMan4ever]

i hope this is the beginning of the bringing in Javon Walker.

[OrangeShadow]

i think this means javon is on his way here.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

What a prissy little b!tch.

[montrose]

or it could mean we're drafting a WR...

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Rookie WRs typically don't do much. I would shudder to think of replacing Denver's #2 WR with a rookie, especially one out of this class.

Walker or Stallworth must be in the works. I can't really think of many other receivers that might be out there. Kevin Curtis and some combination of draft picks (first, even).

Lelie showed promise. Hopefully, he do the right thing and play this out the right way. No need to think you're more than you really are and get all huffy. Best of luck, homie. Time to bring in someone with some balls.

[MajikMan7]

yeah, our emerging WR and best deep threat gone, GREAT news. ROFL!

.........right


yeah our emerging deep threat WR with a grand total of ONE TOUCHDOWN last season

[chaz]

What a prissy little b!tch.



amen bro

[Popps]

What a prissy little b!tch.

LOL

[epicSocialism4tw]

Man...this sucks.

I hope that there is another player coming in, because losing Ash at this point would be devastating to the offense without another guy to fill in the gap.

[ludo21]

yeah our emerging deep threat WR with a grand total of ONE TOUCHDOWN last season


Thats a tired argument. If JAke hit Lelie in stride at ALL last year Lelie would have had 6-7 TD's. But no, he had to adjust to a ton of balls just to make the catch.


Im not against a Lelie trade, but we will be missing a key element of our O and we need a real replacement in the trade for him.

[Florida_Bronco]

Thats a tired argument. If JAke hit Lelie in stride at ALL last year Lelie would have had 6-7 TD's. But no, he had to adjust to a ton of balls just to make the catch.


Im not against a Lelie trade, but we will be missing a key element of our O and we need a real replacement in the trade for him.

He's also showed good promise on those crossing routes and so forth. We need to get him the ball more and see if he can be a more complete player.

[ludo21]

He's also showed good promise on those crossing routes and so forth. We need to get him the ball more and see if he can be a more complete player.


see Oak game for example.

[broncos-rock]

All this time I thought he was actually learning something from Rod. Instead it just goes to show you that you can't teach character!!:wave:

[ludo21]

All this time I thought he was actually learning something from Rod. Instead it just goes to show you that you can't teach character!!:wave:


yeah having confidence you can succeed at a higher level is pure bad character::)

[Florida_Bronco]

see Oak game for example.

Exactly. He needs to be actually tested in games by Shanny and the coaching staff.

It's not like we've tried to use him as a complete player and he has sucked at it. I've honestly seen very few BAD plays from Lelie.

[Ratboy]

It's too bad, I really like Lelie too.

I hope he succeeds well on a different team, except against us.

[Gfunk]

Trade him to the Redskins for Santana Moss and next year's first. They have been known to make a blunder or two when trading. looking to be in a trade with us where you finally come out on top for once, huh?

I'd rather see ya'll get Walker than Philly

you really have a glaring hole now at the position (after Rod Smith) and the WR class in this draft is suspect

[ludo21]

looking to be a trade with us where you finally come out on top for once, huh?


Ha! :giggle: :yayaya: :spit: LOL

stop it, im eating

[yerner]

What an a$$ clown. Cant believe Ive been defending this turd burglar. Man, im pissed. i cant believe it.

[epicSocialism4tw]

looking to be a trade with us where you finally come out on top for once, huh?

uh...do we even need to respond to this ;D

[Ratboy]

looking to be in a trade with us where you finally come out on top for once, huh?

I'd rather see ya'll get Walker than Philly

you really have a glaring hole now at the position (after Rod Smith) and the WR class in this draft is suspect


Oh, Please stop before you embarass yourself.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Day late on this, but it's good to see the The Fan attempting to live up to their motto of breaking sports news first.

When yesterday's Post article said his agents are gauging interest for a trade, that means they were granted permission to seek out other teams' interest in the guy.

[Florida_Bronco]

I guess we'll just wait and see.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

[FONT=tahoma][B][COLOR=darkred]looking to be in a trade with us where you finally come out on top for once, huh?


Why? Denver's 2 for 2, but it's good to see that Gibbs thinks your 1st round QB from last year can compete for the backup spot this year.

[Taco John]

Day late on this, but it's good to see the The Fan attempting to live up to their motto of breaking sports news first.

When yesterday's Post article said his agents are gauging interest for a trade, that means they were granted permission to seek out other teams' interest in the guy.



They're over two months late as far as I'm concerned...

[Clockwork Orange]

looking to be in a trade with us where you finally come out on top for once, huh?

I'd rather see ya'll get Walker than Philly

you really have a glaring hole now at the position (after Rod Smith) and the WR class in this draft is suspect


Shanahan has bent Snyder over and done him dry in every trade thus far. My only regret this offseason is that little Danny is too sore for another go 'round. :laugh:

[broncos-rock]

yeah having confidence you can succeed at a higher level is pure bad character::)

Is it Confidence or is it listening to an agent that has your head filled with non-sense? He has speed to burn but he never went over the middle. When was the last time he took a 5 yard pass and took it to the house. I like the guy but he obviously does not fit this offense. I would rather take a flyer on Cjax or Walker.

[ludo21]

Is it Confidence or is it listening to an agent that has your head filled with non-sense? He has speed to burn but he never went over the middle. When was the last time he took a 5 yard pass and took it to the house. I like the guy but he obviously does not fit this offense. I would rather take a flyer on Cjax or Walker.


Trading a first isnt exactly taking a flyer.....

but i see your point. I agree he doesnt fit this O, burt im fairly confident he will succeed in a ton of other places.

[yerner]

this dude wouldnt have been in the league still if we hadnt drafted and believed in him. his head is up his ass. whats he gonna do start dominating somewhere else? send this dude back to the island on a leaking boat. mahalo' mother fer.

[eddie mac]

Most on here may well think that losing Ash is no big deal but take a little look at the rest of the wide receiver corps and I dont think opposing defenses will have too much trouble covering anyone next year bar Rod.

Also consider the fact that our offense will have new starters at RB and TE next year whether they are in-house ones or not.

Also consider that our need at WR has risen dramatically with this move as will the price for any potential trade target.

Now we may well replace the likes of Lelie, Putzier and Anderson via the draft but we all know that most rookie offensive players tend not to be thrown in at the deepend especially on a 13-3 team.

I just hope the likes of Terrell and Watts can up their games next year because it looks like they'll now be needed.

Ash may well be a little bitch but this move hurts the team more than it helps IMO.

[jbiel]

Nodody needs to worry. I'm sure if Shanny trades Lelie, we will replace him, with Walker, maybe. I don't think Shanny will go into next year with Rod and a rookie receiver starting. Just cause Lelie seeks a trade doesnt mean he gets one, this happens all the time. If we can replace him, we'll probably let him go. If we can't, we let him play for us and he'll be in a contract year so he would probably have the best year of his career. Of course, he would leave the following year as a free agent, but we still got another year to figure something out this way.

[yerner]

i say we keep him a leave on the bench

[ludo21]

i say we keep him a leave on the bench


yeah thats a good idea...Ha!

[2KBack]

You know, permission to seek a trade, doesn't mean he WILL be traded. Shanny isn't going to let him go unless it is fair compensation and have another player to take that spot. This isn't good or bad news, in the end it's just news.

[Drek]

Hopefully this little mini-fiasco can be resolved to the benefit of both parties. Lelie should be wroth a 2nd if you ask me, but if we could get more value by taking an '07 pick instead, I'd be all for that.

[Popps]

yeah having confidence you can succeed at a higher level is pure bad character::)

I don't seem to recall Rod threatening to hold out and skipping team workouts when he was only asked to catch one ball his rookie year. He caught a whopping 16 the next year, still no threats.

Lelie just can't beat out a 37 year old, crafty vet... and he's pouty.

I was happy with him staying before his little fit, now he can go park it up and sideways.

[chaz]

Most on here may well think that losing Ash is no big deal but take a little look at the rest of the wide receiver corps and I dont think opposing defenses will have too much trouble covering anyone next year bar Rod.

Also consider the fact that our offense will have new starters at RB and TE next year whether they are in-house ones or not.

Also consider that our need at WR has risen dramatically with this move as will the price for any potential trade target.

Now we may well replace the likes of Lelie, Putzier and Anderson via the draft but we all know that most rookie offensive players tend not to be thrown in at the deepend especially on a 13-3 team.

I just hope the likes of Terrell and Watts can up their games next year because it looks like they'll now be needed.

Ash may well be a little b**** but this move hurts the team more than it helps IMO.


i definitely see where you are comign from eddie, but i dont think shanahan would trade lelie and not replace him...i think he would be as uncomfortable as we are with the depth behind rod right now if ash left.

edit: just noticed this was my hundreth post...yay...haha

[azbroncfan]

I remember when shanny cut miller and pritchard for two journeymen, cant remember who they were though? Shanny must like what he has seen in Terrell or is going to trade for someone.

[Popps]

Lelie will go on to flourish, a la Eddie Kennison. He'll put up similar numbers, if he's lucky... and that's if he goes to a powerful offensive team. What if he ends up in Houston or Jacksonville? Think he's going to put up 1600 yards and 15 TDs?

Dude needs a reality check, and he's about to get one.

Still, I can see it now... you'll have people here saying that he had a "break-out" season when he tops 1000 yards receiving.

Hey, maybe he'll double his touchdown production!

[dragondawg]

just got this from DenverSB2006 from broncos freak....


http://www.fan950.com/home/audio_player_skinned_20_20.html?dir=sportsupdate&topimage=http://www.fan950.com/images/home/audioplayers/gkarl_top.gif&ShowName=20_20_Sports_Updates&filename=PLAYOFFS_READY.MP3

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=60723

[Sassy]

You're two pages too late ;D

[Clockwork Orange]

I think it's time for an "All Things Lelie" thread.

[eddie mac]

i definitely see where you are comign from eddie, but i dont think shanahan would trade lelie and not replace him...i think he would be as uncomfortable as we are with the depth behind rod right now if ash left.

edit: just noticed this was my hundreth post...yay...haha

I'm not doubting he'll replace him, but at what cost and how long will it take the new player to adjust to our complex schemes. David Terell's still adjusting ffs.

In all likelyhood we are going to be drafting a WR at 15 that doesn't warrant that high of a selection just because we balked at the prices being paid to WR's in free agency. Or giving up a high 2nd rounder for a player coming off an ACL.

If we'd have been looking to trade Ash last year then he'd have had a lot higher value.

[Clockwork Orange]

Hey, maybe he'll double his touchdown production!

If he pulls that off he'll be all caught up with Dwayne Carswell.

If he continues to improve at that rate he'll catch Kyle Johnson in about 2 1/2 years.

[ludo21]

DD jsut doenst pay attention, this is the 3rd thread he has done that already have a thread devoted to it.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think it's time for an "All Things Lelie" thread.


Merge it! :)

[Popps]

If he pulls that off he'll be all caught up with Dwayne Carswell.

If he continues to improve at that rate he'll catch Kyle Johnson in about 2 1/2 years.

It'll be funny to see the responses around here when Lelie puts up similar numbers elsewhere.

[Vegas_Bronco]

Shanny just want's more draft picks....haaaaa haaaaaa! Ummmmmm, we need 2 more!

Lelie will be here this year unless they unload him for someone weak out of desperation - hey Browns here comes Lelie!

Javon Walker is not going to be in orange unless he can work out on that knee. Major knee surgery isn't fun to sign.

This does hurt us overall and DAMNIT can we please get a good WR coach in DENVER before we let him go!?!!?!!!!

[baja]

lelie is going to be great when he gets chemistry with his quaterback and that will never be Jake Plummer. Makes since for all concerned for him to move on.

[epicSocialism4tw]

The Eagles will be interested.

The Packers should be as well.

Miami might be interested.

SF should be interested.

The Pats could be interested.

[TheDave]

looks like the "Claw" may get a chance to play after all...

[baja]

looks like the "Claw" may get a chance to play after all...

Boy am I surprised!

[Ballhawk]

The Eagles will be interested.

The Packers should be as well.

Miami might be interested.

SF should be interested.

The Pats could be interested.

Best fit

[TheDave]

Boy am I surprised!

now you just need rod, terrel, devoe, and adams to all get injured and i'll have to pay that bet:~ohyah!:

[2KBack]

Best fit

most desperate maybe, but Ash gets completely lost when the QB starts to scramble.

[baja]

now you just need rod, terrel, devoe, and adams to all get injured and i'll have to pay that bet:~ohyah!:

Didn't I tell ya we are going to make a pass rusher out of him.

[Vegas_Bronco]

now you just need rod, terrel, devoe, and adams to all get injured and i'll have to pay that bet:~ohyah!:

Lets just hope one of these shows up to camp ready to start with Rod. I'd be working my azz off.

Now the NFL will see the true value in Champ Bailey as a madd WR while Dwill and crew take over on D.

[Popps]

Didn't I tell ya we are going to make a pass rusher out of him.

Couldn't be much worse than what we have. Bulk him up. Send him to Neil Smith's football camp.

[Requiem]

Denver probably needs Lelie if they want to contend this year, however if they don't trade him, they get nothing in return. Ship him.

[-Slap-]

Rookie WRs typically don't do much. I would shudder to think of replacing Denver's #2 WR with a rookie, especially one out of this class.

Walker or Stallworth must be in the works. I can't really think of many other receivers that might be out there. Kevin Curtis and some combination of draft picks (first, even).

I would be amazed if the Rams would deal Curtis, but he would be a fantastic addition. They would probably love Lelie's speed on that carpet, though.

[Ballhawk]

I wonder what Shanny told the agent he wanted? That is how he works it, as with CP (who was told to go find a 1st and a 2nd). My guess would be a 2nd rounder.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I wonder what Shanny told the agent he wanted? That is how he works it, as with CP (who was told to go find a 1st and a 2nd). My guess would be a 2nd rounder.

Hopefully its Jevon Walker.

[Ballhawk]

Hopefully its Jevon Walker.

No...LIES!!!

[Requiem]

Javon. ;)

[Sassy]

No Walker.

[CBF1]

Looks like I better sell my authentic, autographed Ashlie jersey.

Bidding starts at $100.00

PS: It is the retro orange :)

[Sassy]

I have an autographed tee ;D

[Paladin]

This "trade", if it is made, may not be made until after the draft. I wonder if there are two WRs in the third or fourth that might be of interest. Stovall in the second? Marshall in the fourth? Third?

I don't think Lelie's leaving is all doom and gloom. Maybe a bit saddening because it didn't work out, but not gloom.

[bpc]

Please land in the NFC. Ashley has Cris Carter type catching ability with the height and speed to match.

I'm still not that concerned with the WR's we have on this team. I thought Devoe and Adams were solid last year... and I don't even consider them our best backups, I think Watts and Terrell will be even better then them.

I'm still not sold on Watts being a bust. This could be the opening he is looking for. Plus, with Terrell, he is a former top ten draft pick. If he gets it like he says he does, he could bust on to the scene and be a huge player for us next season. I think his game fits ours a little bit better then Ash's.

[12th man]

Please land in the NFC. Ashley has Cris Carter type catching ability with the height and speed to match.

I'm still not that concerned with the WR's we have on this team. I thought Devoe and Adams were solid last year... and I don't even consider them our best backups, I think Watts and Terrell will be even better then them.

I'm still not sold on Watts being a bust. This could be the opening he is looking for. Plus, with Terrell, he is a former top ten draft pick. If he gets it like he says he does, he could bust on to the scene and be a huge player for us next season. I think his game fits ours a little bit better then Ash's.
Im realy not that concerned either. We still have a pretty good wr core. and with Heimerdinger working with David Terrell, adams, devoe, and even watts, I think one or more of those is really going be good. Just the fact the Heimerdinger is a pretty damn good coach and helps the passing game and mainly the WR's, eases the pain of losing lelie. we are still going to be ok, and if we get walker out of this, I'll be very happy.

[cutthemdown]

Thats a tired argument. If JAke hit Lelie in stride at ALL last year Lelie would have had 6-7 TD's. But no, he had to adjust to a ton of balls just to make the catch.


Im not against a Lelie trade, but we will be missing a key element of our O and we need a real replacement in the trade for him.
i agree with this

[wabbit]

...

I'm still not sold on Watts being a bust. This could be the opening he is looking for. Plus, with Terrell, he is a former top ten draft pick. If he gets it like he says he does, he could bust on to the scene and be a huge player for us next season. I think his game fits ours a little bit better then Ash's.


I really believe that the draft will be barometer on the progress of our current WR corp.

WRs coach Steve Watson & Heimerdinger will, and have worked hard with Watts, and word has leaked out that David Terrell is showing solid progress, so if Denver takes a WR at 15 & a pass-catching TE at 2a, that tells me it was pretty much all happy talk.

I know Watson is very concerned about Darius, but wants to exhaust every opportunity before any final verdict is passed, and who knows, maybe Watts takes the Terrell Owens road to stardom.

Owens was better known for his critical drops his first couple of seasons than for any spectacular catches...then, in a play-off game against Green Bay, he made the impossible grab that launched his career to a new level, and his mouth to an entirely new dimension.

It can happen. I hope it happens for Watts.

[Lestat]

yeah see this is one of those times i wish Shanny would sit down with the player, conk him on the head, tell him to STFU & do his job


ok i really don't cause Ashley does have a beef as they mainly only used him on really deep routes & hardly over the middle(accurately anyways) but i want him in Denver

[watermock]

http://img.webring.com/r/b/bbwfa/navbarlogo

[DarkHorse30]

Lelie regressed last year. The book on Shanahan's offense is that WRs need TIME in the system. 4 years is enough time. The lack of production last year was obvious. 42 catches and only one TD is not very good.....especially when you've got a killer running game helping you out....leaving the possibility for play action wide open....but not when your only reliable WR is getting old and is often doubled.

The point has been made that Denver threw to Lelie 88 times.....so the notion that the Broncos are somehow excluding Lelie from the offense is false. Lelie is not a player. He has a highlight reel, but he hasn't even established himself as a legit #2.

Part of the problem could be "the system". It's well documented that very few WRs succeed in Shanahan's system in Denver. So is it the system? Or is it the players?....or a combination?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Lelie regressed last year. The book on Shanahan's offense is that WRs need TIME in the system. 4 years is enough time. The lack of production last year was obvious. 42 catches and only one TD is not very good.....especially when you've got a killer running game helping you out....leaving the possibility for play action wide open....but not when your only reliable WR is getting old and is often doubled.

The point has been made that Denver threw to Lelie 88 times.....so the notion that the Broncos are somehow excluding Lelie from the offense is false. Lelie is not a player. He has a highlight reel, but he hasn't even established himself as a legit #2.

Part of the problem could be "the system". It's well documented that very few WRs succeed in Shanahan's system in Denver. So is it the system? Or is it the players?....or a combination?

Maybe nobody wants to block for the late round draft pick RB? ;D

[ludo21]

I really believe that the draft will be barometer on the progress of our current WR corp.

WRs coach Steve Watson & Heimerdinger will, and have worked hard with Watts, and word has leaked out that David Terrell is showing solid progress, so if Denver takes a WR at 15 & a pass-catching TE at 2a, that tells me it was pretty much all happy talk.

I know Watson is very concerned about Darius, but wants to exhaust every opportunity before any final verdict is passed, and who knows, maybe Watts takes the Terrell Owens road to stardom.

Owens was better known for his critical drops his first couple of seasons than for any spectacular catches...then, in a play-off game against Green Bay, he made the impossible grab that launched his career to a new level, and his mouth to an entirely new dimension.

It can happen. I hope it happens for Watts.


TY Wabbit!

Awesome leak on Terrell. That is VERY VERY good news to hear, expecially with the impending Lelie trade!

Watts has the tools, i certainly am pulling for the guy!

[labronco]

What is all this Ashley hatred about? Maybe it's Plummer's fixation on Rob on every passing situation. Rob is a tough SOB, but he drops his share of balls, too. All Ashley does is come up with big catches. He may never become a number one receiver, and yeah, he's not Steve Smith's of the world, but Ashley is a solid player.

I don't like trading a hungry player in his contract year. See how Warren played for us. We need to keep Ashley.

[ludo21]

What is all this Ashley hatred about? Maybe it's Plummer's fixation on Rob on every passing situation. Rob is a tough SOB, but he drops his share of balls, too. All Ashley does is come up with big catches. He may never become a number one receiver, and yeah, he's not Steve Smith's of the world, but Ashley is a solid player.

I don't like trading a hungry player in his contract year. See how Warren played for us. We need to keep Ashley.


who??? :rofl:



Lelie is as good as gone next year. I for one love the guy, BUT, now is the time to get something for hm. Especially since we have a real shot at a legit replacement in Walker.

If we cant get a legit replacement, i wont like the trade, but ive learned to accept it as of now.

[labronco]

who??? :rofl:



Lelie is as good as gone next year. I for one love the guy, BUT, now is the time to get something for hm. Especially since we have a real shot at a legit replacement in Walker.

If we cant get a legit replacement, i wont like the trade, but ive learned to accept it as of now.

my bad with Rod. ;) it's pretty late, you know. we will get something for him, but not much. not as much as how much we will get out of him this year. we need him this year. that is a better odds than hoping a third round pick to contribute this year.

now all this talk about Walker trade. i don't know how much of that is true, but i figure if it was gonna happen i would have happened already. even if it is true, i don't know how much a receiver from that kind of injury can be expected play. i know what lelie can do, and that is ok with me. we just need to come up with a player in addition to lelie not instead of him.

[bpc]

Lelie with Manning, Brady, Favre, or even Green throwing the ball has 5-8 Td's a season and at least a 1000yds.

I like Jake, I think he fits us well but he doesn't have a long ball arm. So be it, I don't think we need that to win a super bowl. Then again, I don't think we need a stretch the field WR either. Ashley is too talented a player to ask pine for 50 catches again in a ball controlled offense only to want him to bail us out on every 3rd and long we get into to. If you think Ash is going to stink once he leaves, think again. Just hope that he is burning CB's in the NFC next season and the not the AFC where we have to eventually matchup with him.

I like Watts. I've long said that he is probably the most explosive route runner on our team. Better then Smith, Ashley, Terrell, Devoe or Adams. CB's can't stick too him. With that being said, he needs to catch these balls that are thrown his way. I thought he made progress at the end of the preseason and then we demoted him to last man on the roster.

Watts needs to open his game up, play special teams and make the plays in front of him. I still consider him a super talented player, he just has to do it when the lights are on.

I think Terrell is going to be a find for us. I think all of this talk about bringing in a WR in round 1 is smoke and mirrors. Since when has Shanahan ever let his intentions be known? I think the probability of us drafting a WR this year in the first round is about as likely as us drafting a HB. I just don't see it happening.

I would love to get Stovall though from ND. 6'5, 220... all man baby! The next Ed is in the house.

[labronco]

I think all of this talk about bringing in a WR in round 1 is smoke and mirrors. Since when has Shanahan ever let his intentions be known? I think the probability of us drafting a WR this year in the first round is about as likely as us drafting a HB. I just don't see it happening.

oh, man, i hope you are right.

[BroncoBen]

You know, permission to seek a trade, doesn't mean he WILL be traded. Shanny isn't going to let him go unless it is fair compensation and have another player to take that spot. This isn't good or bad news, in the end it's just news.

You know, I was thinking about this yesterday. Permission to seek a trade just means for the agent to go out and see if there is any interest, saves the Broncos staff from having to do the leg-work.

You figure, if as we Bronco fans debate that Lelie is not a #1 WR don’t you think the people who get ‘paid’ to put together team rosters see this as well.

I have a feeling that Denver is going to keep Lelie make him honor his contract and give him the opportunity to prove to the rest of the league he can be a #1 WR. Most players that are playing their last year on a contract, ‘contract year’ seem to play with more heart, something to prove.

Maybe this is what Lelie needs, playing with something to prove, attitude. To me that has always been his problem, not football skills, but the fire to play at the NFL level.

[Play2win]

This could all be a massive smoke screen, so that other team are counting on us taking a WR, when we have targeted something else completely. Maybe trade involved, maybe not. But I wouldn't be suprised at all if Shanny makes a play for one of the DT's

[Rascal]

Most on here may well think that losing Ash is no big deal but take a little look at the rest of the wide receiver corps and I dont think opposing defenses will have too much trouble covering anyone next year bar Rod.

Also consider the fact that our offense will have new starters at RB and TE next year whether they are in-house ones or not.

Also consider that our need at WR has risen dramatically with this move as will the price for any potential trade target.

Now we may well replace the likes of Lelie, Putzier and Anderson via the draft but we all know that most rookie offensive players tend not to be thrown in at the deepend especially on a 13-3 team.

I just hope the likes of Terrell and Watts can up their games next year because it looks like they'll now be needed.

Ash may well be a little b**** but this move hurts the team more than it helps IMO.

You cant' say that till you know who is actually brought in.

If it's Javon i think it helps. Stallworth...I'll call it a wash. Kevin Curtis...definetly a regression.

Don't hop on the pessimistic train just yet.

[defenseman]

If Lelie were going to stick in Denver, he would have stuck by now. Time for him to go, hopefully, the broncos can get an "easy ED" type to replace him. My money is on Devoe and Terrell to stand up and be counted this year...dman

[Rock Chalk]

Hope you are right dman, but its gonna be hard to replace 19 yards per catch and some amazing skills Lelie had.

People seem to forget, when looking at the stat sheet, that Lelie has hands of glue. After a first season of some dropsies, this guy has grabbed nearly everything thrown his way and made some of the most spectacular catches of all last year from any team.

He has the skills, we just dont use him enough. A lot of that has less to do with him being mauled at the line like so many blindly suggest, but more to do with the run first offensive strategy plus Rod Smith.

Lelie will do well in this league with another team, but Im going to hold out hope that no trade gets done and we get to keep him.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Todd Devoe will win the 2 spot.

[bendog]

Davoe, the Claw, the "not" TD Terrell .... oh god, I gotta get out of my office while the smell clears out.

[BroncoInferno]

Todd Devoe will win the 2 spot.

Why are there so many believers in a guy who made a single great catch last season against Philly? That's all he did! If Lelie goes and we don't add a vet WR, the starter will likely be Terrell with Watts or a rookie (Jackson or Holmes) as the #3.

[DarkHorse30]

Hope you are right dman, but its gonna be hard to replace 19 yards per catch and some amazing skills Lelie had.

People seem to forget, when looking at the stat sheet, that Lelie has hands of glue. After a first season of some dropsies, this guy has grabbed nearly everything thrown his way and made some of the most spectacular catches of all last year from any team.

He has the skills, we just dont use him enough. A lot of that has less to do with him being mauled at the line like so many blindly suggest, but more to do with the run first offensive strategy plus Rod Smith.

Lelie will do well in this league with another team, but Im going to hold out hope that no trade gets done and we get to keep him.

If Rod Smith can get open and catch 85 balls, Lelie SHOULD be able to catch at least 70.....if he was a legit #1 contender. I really don't care how talented Lelie thinks he is, I want to see it on Sunday......in the redzone, or in a game-winning drive. YPC is great, but most of those burners have at least a handful of TDs. Lelie seems to disappear in the redzone.

In '05 Lelie had 4 games where he only had one catch....and 5 games where he only had 2. This is not #1 WR material....it's barely even #2.

[Rascal]

Devoe had nine catches actually.

Plus he had a good preseason.

[Popps]

Todd Devoe will win the 2 spot.

Woah... there's a prediction you don't hear every day.

I'll take it, though. He looks pretty talented, and I'm not giving up on Watts, who I think might have the most raw talent of anyone we've had at the position in a long time.

[Nuggets4]

If he pulls that off he'll be all caught up with Dwayne Carswell.

If he continues to improve at that rate he'll catch Kyle Johnson in about 2 1/2 years.

But he still won't have Kyle's mad dancing skills.

[Requiem]

Todd Devoe, lol. No way. If the Broncos to trade Lelie, they better find a way to get someone like Stallworth or Walker to can be a #2 for us who has solid pro experience and has the skill and ability to be a starter. Devoe doesn't. The Broncos will still draft a receiver, and they'd probably challenge for the #3 spot along with Watts, Terrell, etc.

No way in Hell do we go into the season with Rod Smith and Todd Devoe as our starters. I love Rod, but what does Devoe bring to the table that will make people respect him and what does he bring to the table that might help free up Rod in key situations? Nothing. Teams will double team him the Ageless Wonder all damn day long and we'll have zero passing game.

You better hope Devoe isn't our #2 going into the season.

[BroncoInferno]

Devoe had nine catches actually.

Plus he had a good preseason.

I meant that was all he did of note. He's got some potential as a #3 WR, but we are in a lot of trouble if he is an opening day starter. Shanny will not trade Lelie unless he is comfortable with Terrell or else the trade includes Walker.

[bendog]

Charlie Adams.

I gotta admit this thing mystifies me a bit. I'm not a great Lelie fan, but Den's sitting at 15, and can either go up to get Bunkley and play two one gap DTs, or go down and get Lawson/Wimbley ... both of whom ought to be situational pass rushers by mid season. But instead, they create a position of need by letting their one serviceable #2 WR seek a trade. And, it's not that he can just "walk" next year. Den can franchise him in the worst case and STILL trade him.

So we'll instead pick Holmes or some rook WR who'll be of no use next year, and who'll arguably be a reach in that WRs will be overvalued in this draft, and then get Mercedes or Klopfrankenstein whith the 37, and our best pass rusher will be some mook we just signed from Cleveland?

[bendog]

If Rod Smith can get open and catch 85 balls, Lelie SHOULD be able to catch at least 70.....if he was a legit #1 contender. I really don't care how talented Lelie thinks he is, I want to see it on Sunday......in the redzone, or in a game-winning drive. YPC is great, but most of those burners have at least a handful of TDs. Lelie seems to disappear in the redzone.

In '05 Lelie had 4 games where he only had one catch....and 5 games where he only had 2. This is not #1 WR material....it's barely even #2.
Den would have to throw 550 times for that to happen, and that won't happen. However, I do note that Terrell did have 40-45 catches in his last to years in Chi, so arguably he coujld be a serviceable no2.

[Rascal]

If we trade Lelie for Walker he will be our #1 in two years. Terrell can be our #2, solid years at Chicago of all places so the ability is there, and Devoe/Watts/whoever can be our #3 (this is in two years when i expect Rod to retire).

If we trade Lelie for Stallworth he will be a #1/#2 WR and with Terrell our WR will be solid but somewhat weak (no stud player). Not sure that shanny likes that option so look for a WR to be taken early if we in fact go after Stallworth. If we go after Walker I doubt we take a WR early.

[Play2win]

ASH made alot of progression last season. He was successful when he went through the middle. Especially middle (not quick/short) crossing pattern. They need to do that more, but they needed something in our offense to balance that out, ie a real TE. If we keep ASH, and goto him at greater frequency in the middle crossing pattern, he is going to have alot of yards.

And where did that Fake-Deep, throw-behind, on Ash's inside shoulder go (from a few season's ago)? that was one of Jake's most successful types of passes to ASH that year...

[Play2win]

Charlie Adams would be little more than Camp Fodder on a lot of teams...

[BroncoInferno]

Den would have to throw 550 times for that to happen, and that won't happen.

Nope. We didn't throw it much more in '03 and Sharpe caught 62 balls as the #2 offensive option. This idea that Lelie's 42 catches were close to the max of what a #2 option could do in the '05 offense is simply wrong. A better player could have caught as many as 20 more passes than Lelie. Unfortunately, he's one dimensional and can't get open in enough ways consistently to do that.

[Requiem]

I call bull**** Inferno. If Jake had better touches on his deep ball, Lelie himself could have caught 10-15 more passes. As long as Jake is here, and we limit the times he throws, our number two won't put up big numbers -- and unlike your statement, you can take mine to the bank.

[BroncoInferno]

I call bull**** Inferno. If Jake had better touches on his deep ball, Lelie himself could have caught 10-15 more passes. As long as Jake is here, and we limit the times he throws, our number two won't put up big numbers -- and unlike your statement, you can take mine to the bank.

LOL Sharpe was the number 2 option in '03 and caught 62 balls while playing the same style of offense as we played in '05 and with Jake Plummer as the QB. So you are demonstrably dead wrong. Why not have Lelie run more high percentage plays that Jake can complete with better accuracy? I'll tell you why...because Lelie can't do it consistently. If he could, he would have had those extra 10-15 receptions.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Todd Devoe, lol. No way. If the Broncos to trade Lelie, they better find a way to get someone like Stallworth or Walker to can be a #2 for us who has solid pro experience and has the skill and ability to be a starter. Devoe doesn't. The Broncos will still draft a receiver, and they'd probably challenge for the #3 spot along with Watts, Terrell, etc.

No way in Hell do we go into the season with Rod Smith and Todd Devoe as our starters. I love Rod, but what does Devoe bring to the table that will make people respect him and what does he bring to the table that might help free up Rod in key situations? Nothing. Teams will double team him the Ageless Wonder all damn day long and we'll have zero passing game.

You better hope Devoe isn't our #2 going into the season.

On the money. The only thing Devoe, Adams, Watts and Terrel have really proved to date is that they can cash thier paycheck. I hope they all become superstars, but they have shown nothing to indicate that yet.

[Requiem]

LOL Sharpe was the number 2 option in '03 and caught 62 balls while playing the same style of offense as we played in '05 and with Jake Plummer as the QB. So you are demonstrably dead wrong. Why not have Lelie run more high percentage plays that Jake can complete with better accuracy? I'll tell you why...because Lelie can't do it consistently. If he could, he would have had those extra 10-15 receptions.
I'm talking #2 wide receiver. Sharpe is a future Hall of Famer, and with a guy like Sharpe -- your game plan changes, if you think we ran the same offense with Jeb Putzier as our tight end as we did with Shannon Sharpe -- you have to be kidding. When you have a tight end like Sharpe, you expect to throw him the ball. Not to mention, Lelie was just entering his second year when that happened. Remember, Ed was injured.

No, I'm right. All I have to do is re-watch the games for last year and you'll see how many times Jake missed Lelie. Also, watch the games where Denver used him quite well and you'll see that he can consistently put up solid games, 6 catch games with say 75 yards if you let him do more than just run deep routes, deep routes which are usually low percentage because of Jake's inability to throw the ball deep.

Regardless of how bad you dislike Lelie, if he's gone before the season starts, Denver fans will sorely be missing him when Rod Smith isn't able to do **** because teams will double-team him and old age might finally catch up to him.

Where I admit Lelie isn't a God on the football field, he certainly garners enough respect for defensive coordinators and cornerbacks to honor his ability of going deep. Had Lelie not been there last season, I think you'd see a severe drop-off in Rod's production. Being able to use Lelie as a decoy certainly helped Rod and his game. Also, who the heck ever expected Lelie to become a #1 as long as Smith is here? That wasn't going to happen.

[bendog]

Nope. We didn't throw it much more in '03 and Sharpe caught 62 balls as the #2 offensive option. This idea that Lelie's 42 catches were close to the max of what a #2 option could do in the '05 offense is simply wrong. A better player could have caught as many as 20 more passes than Lelie. Unfortunately, he's one dimensional and can't get open in enough ways consistently to do that.
no offense, but you need to relook this.

in 05 Den's te's caught 60 passes. It's the touches, man. Pretty consistent year in year out. The receptions by WR's was not that much different in 03 than 05 either. Emac got about 20, which is close to Adams' no last year. The statistical difference in the two years is that WR's actually caught a few more last year, and in 03 with EMAC down, Den didn't really have much of a no 3 WR, and yes Sharpe filled that role on 3rd and long. In 03 the RB's got about ten more receptions than last year.

[Smiling Assassin27]

it looks like the bridge is burned. i think it's a bad idea to trade the guy but if his mind is already gone, ship his arse out.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Why are there so many believers in a guy who made a single great catch last season against Philly? That's all he did! If Lelie goes and we don't add a vet WR, the starter will likely be Terrell with Watts or a rookie (Jackson or Holmes) as the #3.

I'll tell you why I'm a believer:

1. He was essentially a street free agent who caught everything thrown his way in preseason and made big plays on scant oppertunity.

2. He beat out a several drafted players and the GOAT for a roster spot.

3. He beat out a 2nd round pick on the depth chart.

4. The Philly game -- that catch and run was clutch.

5. He has excellent speed. Kubiak verified that he is just as fast as Lelie.

6. He is hungry

[FLABronco]

I guess that makes all of the speculation pretty much official. Well, hopefully we can get someone productive out of it.

[ludo21]

I'll tell you why I'm a believer:

1. He was essentially a street free agent who caught everything thrown his way in preseason and made big plays on scant oppertunity.

2. He beat out a several drafted players and the GOAT for a roster spot.

3. He beat out a 2nd round pick on the depth chart.

4. The Philly game -- that catch and run was clutch.

5. He has excellent speed. Kubiak verified that he is just as fast as Lelie.

6. He is hungry


Me too, his ST work was enough for me to believe as well. Always around the ball, and just made plays.

Why question that?

[Requiem]

It's all fine and dandy, but none of that shows he can be a #2 at this level.

He beat out Watts, WOAH. He beat out an aging Rice we was never expected to make the roster anyways, WOAH. He's just as fast as Lelie, so are a lot of other receivers. WOAH. He had one good catch? WOAH.

Yeah, sounds like a #2 guy to me. :rofl:

[ludo21]

It's all fine and dandy, but none of that shows he can be a #2 at this level.

He beat out Watts, WOAH. He beat out an aging Rice we was never expected to make the roster anyways, WOAH. He's just as fast as Lelie, so are a lot of other receivers. WOAH. He had one good catch? WOAH.

Yeah, sounds like a #2 guy to me. :rofl:

#2, not yet. The ability to be a good #3 next year, yes.

[Drek]

LOL Sharpe was the number 2 option in '03 and caught 62 balls while playing the same style of offense as we played in '05 and with Jake Plummer as the QB. So you are demonstrably dead wrong. Why not have Lelie run more high percentage plays that Jake can complete with better accuracy? I'll tell you why...because Lelie can't do it consistently. If he could, he would have had those extra 10-15 receptions.
Sharpe was a TE, the greatest recieving TE of all time at that, Lelie is our #2 WR, totally different roles in the offense. You're making an apples to oranges comparision. Now if you want to talk about why Putz was more than 20 receptions behind Sharpe, thats something else (quick tip, its because Alexander caught 21 passes last year, with a scrubtastic 8.1 yard average per catch). Rod, our #3 WR Adams, and our RBs as a whole caught more passes last year than in '03 (the last largely because of Kyle Johnson).

For what its worth, Eddie Mac only broke 70 receptions twice, in '99 when Sharpe was out much of the year, and '00 when Sharpe was in Baltimore. The #2 TE has never been a major producer yardage-wise for us.

And where did that Fake-Deep, throw-behind, on Ash's inside shoulder go (from a few season's ago)? that was one of Jake's most successful types of passes to ASH that year...
Teams started having the safety drop over on top of him whenever he'd go deep, sandwiching him in and eliminating the inside shoulder, Jake would then have to throw to the outside shoulder, which is a pass he simply can't make.

I think this highlights a major issue in our offense and the reason Putz was cut. He didn't demand any respect from opposing teams, so the CB could stick with Ash until the safety came over the top of him and still be able to help out a LB with Putz, hence why Putz was always getting jacked up by CBs, dropping off Lelie as soon as the safety had him.

A TE who demands a safety to cover him would open up the offense for Lelie and Plummer significantly, since Plummer wouldn't have to throw deep between defenders. Jake can get the ball out there, just not as accurately as you need to go between a safety and CB (hence all the picks late in the '04 season, when teams caught on).

I get the feeling we aren't going to get the desired offer for Lelie and he'll still be here next year. Not necessarily a bad thing if we can add a TE who can help him work the right side of the defense, but hopefully there's still hope to mend the fences and resign him should our passing game start to click next year.

[Play2win]

I call bull**** Inferno. If Jake had better touches on his deep ball, Lelie himself could have caught 10-15 more passes. As long as Jake is here, and we limit the times he throws, our number two won't put up big numbers -- and unlike your statement, you can take mine to the bank.

BETTER TOUCHES... Hilarious! :rofl:

LMAO!!!


You mean if he threw the ball within 15 yards of where it should've been...

Broad side of a Barn comes to mind...

Sh!t, Jarious Jackson throwing it underhand could have come closer on a few of those "Throws"...

[Dr. Broncenstein]

It's all fine and dandy, but none of that shows he can be a #2 at this level.

He beat out Watts, WOAH. He beat out an aging Rice we was never expected to make the roster anyways, WOAH. He's just as fast as Lelie, so are a lot of other receivers. WOAH. He had one good catch? WOAH.

Yeah, sounds like a #2 guy to me. :rofl:

People said the same thing about Rod. :rofl: Woah. You're a bag of douche. Woah

[Requiem]

Don't even compare the kid to Smith. God damn, some people are ignorant.

[Taco John]

Oh well dang... If he's hungry, then what more do we need?

[Requiem]

Oh well dang... If he's hungry, then what more do we need?

Food. So Taco, where's your "I told you so" talk about Lelie being traded? :)

[Taco John]

Food. So Taco, where's your "I told you so" talk about Lelie being traded? :)


Hiding somewhere with all of my pats on the back for being on top of this one from the beginning... ;)

[epicSocialism4tw]

Hiding somewhere with all of my pats on the back for being on top of this one from the beginning... ;)

I remember. There was an extensive thread on the subject. Good job.

^5 :notworthy :Elway: :ninja:

[BroncoInferno]

in 05 Den's te's caught 60 passes. It's the touches, man. Pretty consistent year in year out. The receptions by WR's was not that much different in 03 than 05 either. Emac got about 20, which is close to Adams' no last year. The statistical difference in the two years is that WR's actually caught a few more last year, and in 03 with EMAC down, Den didn't really have much of a no 3 WR, and yes Sharpe filled that role on 3rd and long. In 03 the RB's got about ten more receptions than last year.

Sharpe was a TE, the greatest recieving TE of all time at that, Lelie is our #2 WR, totally different roles in the offense.

I'm talking #2 wide receiver. Sharpe is a future Hall of Famer, and with a guy like Sharpe -- your game plan changes, if you think we ran the same offense with Jeb Putzier as our tight end as we did with Shannon Sharpe -- you have to be kidding. When you have a tight end like Sharpe, you expect to throw him the ball. Not to mention, Lelie was just entering his second year when that happened. Remember, Ed was injured.

You guys are wrong because Sharpe was the number two OPTION as a receiver. The flow of the offense was tailored to get him the ball after Rod. This season, the progression put Lelie at #2. In other words, the same number of passes available to Sharpe would have been available to Lelie if he could have performed well enough. You don't ask your nymber 2 option, whether it be a TE or WR, to only go deep if he can get open underneath, too! And you people need to stop bringing up a scant two game sample against teams with very bad CBs playing off coverage (NE and Oak) as proof that he is an under used stud. That is absurd. A better #2 option could have caught more passes. That is a stone cold fact, and if we get someone in here better (i.e. Walker) you will see that for the fact that it is.

[Rascal]

You guys are wrong because Sharpe was the number two OPTION as a receiver. The flow of the offense was tailored to get him the ball after Rod. This season, the progression put Lelie at #2. In other words, the same number of passes available to Sharpe would have been available to Lelie if he could have performed well enough. You don't ask your nymber 2 option, whether it be a TE or WR, to only go deep if he can get open underneath, too! And you people need to stop bringing up a scant two game sample against teams with very bad CBs playing off coverage (NE and Oak) as proof that he is an under used stud. That is absurd. A better #2 option could have caught more passes. That is a stone cold fact, and if we get someone in here better (i.e. Walker) you will see that for the fact that it is.

FYI..data only through week 16.

Smith was targeted 123 times last year and caught 84 for 68.3%.
Lelie was targeted 83 times last year and caught only 40 for 48.2%.
Putzier was targeted 57 times and caught 36 for 63.2%.

I'm curious as to what % other #2 WR's caught. I'll come up with the info here in a minute.

[bendog]

The year you picked was the last Sonic year, I think. If so, yeah Sharpe was typically the no 2, with one or the other being short and the other in the next level, running parralle to Jake's boot. They ran the same WC 5step too, but last year the 5 step was the base pass set, and the bootleg was less used.

But to say that Lelie got as many looks as Sharpe .... I can't agree.

Good news is Terrell put up pretty much Lelie numbers in Chi. But, seriously, I doubt Lelie can work out a trade giving Den much value. Walker's a question and Stallworth has never played a full season without a hammy.

[Atlas]

this dude wouldnt have been in the league still if we hadnt drafted and believed in him. his head is up his ass. whats he gonna do start dominating somewhere else? send this dude back to the island on a leaking boat. mahalo' mother fer.

That's redicules. Lelie can be a star in the NFL.

[bronco militia]

Lelie was targeted 83 times last year and caught only 40 for 48.2%.

.

to be fair, most of those were lower percentage throws (deep)

[BroncoInferno]

The year you picked was the last Sonic year, I think. If so, yeah Sharpe was typically the no 2, with one or the other being short and the other in the next level, running parralle to Jake's boot. They ran the same WC 5step too, but last year the 5 step was the base pass set, and the bootleg was less used.

But to say that Lelie got as many looks as Sharpe .... I can't agree.

You're right, he didn't get as many looks as Sharpe. My point is that, as the number 2 option, there COULD have been a comparable number of passes available to Lelie in the '05 offense if he had performed better. But he didn't.

[BroncoInferno]

to be fair, most of those were lower percentage throws (deep)

Yep, too bad the only routes Lelie can run well with consistency are low percentage routes.

[Rascal]

Other #2 Target Stats:

Player: Targeted, completions, %
Jerry Porter: 130, 70, 53.8
Terry Glenn: 109, 60, 55
TJ Housh: 108, 75, 69.4
Toomer: 108, 60, 55.6
Horn: 99, 48, 48.5 (stat wise Stallworth had a better year, but here are his as well)
Stallworth: 121, 64, 52.9
Curtis: 94, 57, 60.6 (Bruce was injured most of the year)
Lewis: 94, 44, 46.8
Engram: 93, 64, 68.8
Givens: 92, 58, 63
Evans: 86, 47, 54.7
Gaffney: 84, 54, 63.5
Jurevicius: 81, 53, 65.4
Booker: 76, 32, 42.1


etc, etc, etc. This made me wonder with Lelie's low completion % (48.2) just how low was it. So I took all the WR's with more then 60 targets. The average completion % was 56.4% with a STD of 7.19. How bad was Lelie's %....only 10 WR's of 64 had a worse completion %.

They were (completion and YPR):
Doug Gabriel (47.5, 15.7)
Marty Booker (42.1, 18.8)
Roy Williams (47.7, 15.6)
Greg Lewis (46.8, 11.3)
Justin McCareins (41.8, 17.3)
Joe Horn (48.5, 13.4)
Brandon Lloyd (43.1, 15.6)
Randy Moss (46.9, 16.8)
Mushin Muhammad (47.1, 11.7)
Plaxico Burress (46.1, 15.3)
Lelie (48.2, 18.8)
This is all prior to week 17 numbers.

[Rock Chalk]

Other #2 Target Stats:

Player: Targeted, completions, %
Jerry Porter: 130, 70, 53.8
Terry Glenn: 109, 60, 55
TJ Housh: 108, 75, 69.4
Toomer: 108, 60, 55.6
Horn: 99, 48, 48.5 (stat wise Stallworth had a better year, but here are his as well)
Stallworth: 121, 64, 52.9
Curtis: 94, 57, 60.6 (Bruce was injured most of the year)
Lewis: 94, 44, 46.8
Engram: 93, 64, 68.8
Givens: 92, 58, 63
Evans: 86, 47, 54.7


etc, etc, etc. This made me wonder with Lelie's low completion % (48.2) just how low was it. So I took all the WR's with more then 60 targets. The average completion % was 56.4% with a STD of 7.19. How bad was Lelie's %....only 10 WR's of 64 had a worse completion %.

They were:
Doug Gabriel (47.5)
Marty Booker (42.1)
Roy Williams (47.7)
Greg Lewis (46.8)
Justin McCareins (41.8)
Joe Horn (48.5)
Brandon Lloyd (43.1)
Randy Moss (46.9)
Mushin Muhammad (47.1)
Plaxico Burress (46.1)
Of those 10 four, possibly 5 if you count Roy Williams, are good or great receivers.

Id take Mushin, Moss, Llyod, Burress and Williams and maybe even Booker too as a #2 receiver or in some cases like Muhammad and Moss, #1 receiver. McCareins isnt a bad choice either.

[Rock Chalk]

Yep, too bad the only routes Lelie can run well with consistency are low percentage routes.
I disagree with this statement outright.

There is no measurement of what he runs consistently anywhere. He is used as a deep threat, but that does not mean he doesnt run consistent routes underneath, just means he isnt used there.

Odds are good its not because he cant, but because there is a TE, a WR and possibly a FB underneath already.

[Pat Bowlen]

this dude wouldnt have been in the league still if we hadnt drafted and believed in him. his head is up his ass. whats he gonna do start dominating somewhere else? send this dude back to the island on a leaking boat. mahalo' mother fer.
Stick to drinking your avatar and huffing gas instead of posting from now on. You're an idiot.

[toad]

FYI..data only through week 16.

Smith was targeted 123 times last year and caught 84 for 68.3%.
Lelie was targeted 83 times last year and caught only 40 for 48.2%.
Putzier was targeted 57 times and caught 36 for 63.2%.

I'm curious as to what % other #2 WR's caught. I'll come up with the info here in a minute.

In offenses that run the ball as frequently as us:

ATL: no WR on their entire squad was targeted as many times as Lelie
SEA: Joe Jurevicius was targeted 84 times
PITT: Randle-El was targeted 70 times
WASH: David Patten was targeted 53 times
KC: Sammy Parker (58 targets) and Dante Hall (51 targets)
JAX: Enrnest Williford was targeted 74 times

For a running team 88 targets for Lelie was VERY good. More than most #2s and, in some cases, nearly as many as the #1.

[Rascal]

Interesting stats on red zone targets:
2005

Player 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Total
Jake Plummer 9 3 5 5 1 3 4 7 . 4 7 1 6 2 8 6 1 72
Bradlee VanPelt . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . 2 3
QB TOTAL 9 3 5 5 1 3 4 7 4 7 1 7 2 8 6 3 75
Mike Anderson . 3 7 4 . 4 5 5 . 4 11 . 5 . 7 4 . 59
Tatum Bell 5 . . 3 2 3 1 7 . 5 3 . . 2 2 3 4 40
Ron Dayne . . 1 . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . 3 8
Kyle Johnson 1 1 . . . 1 1 2 . . 2 . 1 1 . . . 10
Cecil Sapp . . 1 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 3
RB TOTAL 6 4 9 7 2 8 7 14 9 18 1 9 3 9 7 7 120
Rod Smith 1 . 1 . . 1 . 1 . 1 . 1 2 . 3 2 . 13
Ashley Lelie 3 . . . 1 1 . . . . . . 1 . 1 1 . 8
Charlie Adams . . 1 . . . . 2 . . 2 . . . . . . 5
Todd Devoe . . . . . . 1 . . . . . 1 . . 1 . 3
Darius Watts . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
David Terrell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 1
Nate Jackson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
WR TOTAL 4 3 1 2 1 3 1 2 1 4 4 4 1 31
Jeb Putzier 2 . . 1 . . 1 . . 1 . . . . . . . 5
Stephen Alexander 1 . . 1 . . . 2 . 1 1 . . . 2 . 2 10
Wesley Duke . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . 1
Mike Leach . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
TE TOTAL 3 2 1 2 2 1 3 2 16

2004

Player 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Total
Jake Plummer 9 1 5 6 9 4 3 6 3 . 6 1 5 3 . 8 5 74
QB TOTAL 9 1 5 6 9 4 3 6 3 6 1 5 3 8 5 74
Reuben Droughns . . 1 4 5 5 4 5 . . 2 2 5 2 . 5 3 43
Tatum Bell . . . . 2 . . . . . . . 3 5 1 4 4 19
Quentin Griffin 8 2 2 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
Kyle Johnson . . . . . . . . . . 1 1 . . . . . 2
Garrison Hearst . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . 2
Cecil Sapp . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 1
RB TOTAL 8 2 4 6 7 5 4 5 3 3 8 7 2 10 7 81
Rod Smith 2 . 1 . 1 1 2 1 2 . . . 3 . . 4 . 17
Ashley Lelie 1 1 2 1 . . . 1 . . 1 . 1 . . . . 8
Darius Watts . . . 1 1 . 1 3 1 . 1 . . . . . 1 9
Nate Jackson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . 1
Triandos Luke . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
WR TOTAL 3 1 3 2 2 1 3 5 3 2 5 4 1 35
Jeb Putzier . . 1 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Dwayne Carswell . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Patrick Hape 1 . . 1 1 1 . 1 . . . . . . . . 3 8
TE TOTAL 1 1 1 1 3 1 3 11

2003

Player 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Total
Jake Plummer 4 6 4 3 3 . . . . . 7 3 4 5 1 7 . 47
Danny Kanell . . . . . . 4 3 3 . . . . . . . 4 14
Steve Beuerlein . 1 . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Jarious Jackson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
QB TOTAL 4 7 4 3 3 3 4 3 3 7 3 4 5 1 7 4 65
Clinton Portis 5 6 2 . 7 2 3 4 2 . 3 . 9 6 8 . . 57
Quentin Griffin . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . 11 6 20
Mike Anderson . 4 3 2 1 . 1 . 2 . . . . . . 9 . 22
Reuben Droughns . 1 . . . 1 . . . . . . 1 2 . . . 5
Cecil Sapp . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 4
RB TOTAL 5 11 5 2 8 3 4 4 4 5 1 10 8 8 20 10 108
Rod Smith 2 2 . 1 2 1 2 1 . . 1 3 . . . 2 . 17
Ashley Lelie 1 . . . . 1 1 1 1 . 1 . 1 1 . . . 8
Ed McCaffrey . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . 4
Chris Cole . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Adrian Madise . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 1
WR TOTAL 3 2 1 2 2 2 3 2 1 2 3 2 3 2 1 31
Shannon Sharpe . 1 1 1 . 1 . 1 . . 4 . 1 . . . . 10
Dwayne Carswell . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Jeb Putzier . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
Patrick Hape . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 1
TE TOTAL 1 1 1 1 1 1 4 1 1 12

2002

Player 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Total
Brian Griese 4 7 2 7 4 4 6 5 . 6 3 . . 7 2 . . 57
Steve Beuerlein . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 2 . . 5 5 17
QB TOTAL 4 7 2 7 4 4 6 5 6 7 1 2 7 2 5 5 74
Clinton Portis . 1 4 1 1 3 3 8 . 7 2 6 5 5 4 2 7 59
Mike Anderson 2 1 . . . 2 3 2 . 2 2 . . . 3 1 1 19
Olandis Gary . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . 4
Reuben Droughns . . . 1 . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . 2
RB TOTAL 2 3 4 2 1 5 6 10 9 4 7 5 8 7 3 8 84
Rod Smith 2 3 . . . 2 . 2 . . 3 1 1 . . 2 1 17
Ed McCaffrey . . 1 1 . . 2 1 . 1 . . . 1 1 . 2 10
Ashley Lelie . 1 . 1 . . 1 . . 1 . . . 1 . 1 1 7
Scottie Montgomery . 1 . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 2
WR TOTAL 2 5 1 2 2 3 4 2 3 1 1 2 1 3 4 36
Shannon Sharpe 1 1 . 2 1 . 1 2 . 1 . . . 1 . . 1 11
Dwayne Carswell . . 1 . . 1 . . . 1 1 . 1 . 1 . . 6
Patrick Hape . . . 1 1 . . . . . 1 . . . . . . 3
TE TOTAL 1 1 1 3 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 20

http://www.footballguys.com/teampage-den-3.php

[BroncoInferno]

I disagree with this statement outright.

There is no measurement of what he runs consistently anywhere. He is used as a deep threat, but that does not mean he doesnt run consistent routes underneath, just means he isnt used there.

Odds are good its not because he cant, but because there is a TE, a WR and possibly a FB underneath already.

Actually, the odds are pretty bad that Shanny would not try and exploit Lelie's 4.3 speed in the open field if he could run crossing patterns and slants with any kind of consistency. Hell, it would make him even more dangerous on deep patterns because teams would be forced to respect him underneath, which right now they do not.

[Rascal]

So now I'm wondering if those who had low completion %'s (WR's) did that correspond to other positions on the team or was it in general?

So looking at the players who had less % then Lelie:

Team, WR Targets, WR Completions, TE Targets, TE Completions, RB Targets, RB Completions, Total Completion %
OAK, 392, 202, 63, 30, 126, 84, 54%
MIA, 334, 159, 120, 70, 90, 62, 52%
DET, 293, 148, 95, 57, 126, 92, 57%
PHI, 323, 161, 130, 75, 156, 101, 55%
NYJ, 293, 152, 85, 52, 82, 64, 58%
NO, 343, 178, 93, 54, 98, 78, 58%
SF, 232, 109, 31, 20, 110, 75, 57%
CHI, 280, 138, 59, 28, 74, 53, 53%
NYG, 309, 151, 140, 75, 75, 56, 54%
DEN, 270, 159, 98, 60, 85, 58, 61%

Then looking at WR's only (completion%):
OAK, 392, 202, 51.5%
MIA, 334, 159, 47.6%
DET, 293, 148, 50.5%
PHI, 323, 161, 49.8%
NYJ, 293, 152, 51.8%
NO, 343, 178, 51.8%
SF, 232, 109, 46.9%
CHI, 280, 138, 49.3%
NYG, 309, 151, 48.8%
DEN, 270, 159, 58.8%

Based on these numbers I can feel secure in knowing that the problem was mostly on Lelie and not Jake. Those saying he was not accurate can explain why he had a better completion % to WR's then Eli, Brooks, McNabb, Collins, etc if he sucks so bad.

[bendog]

Actually, the odds are pretty bad that Shanny would not try and exploit Lelie's 4.3 speed in the open field if he could run crossing patterns and slants with any kind of consistency. Hell, it would make him even more dangerous on deep patterns because teams would be forced to respect him underneath, which right now they do not.
But if Plummer is told to either pull it down or get rid of it by the three count, I'm not sure it's possible to run deep crossing routes. And that's sort of the pt I tried to make some time back. Elway in the superbowl years had a lower comletion % than Plummer, YET he had more yds per catch. My recollection is that Ed and Rod ran deeper routes, and the stats pretty much bear that out. I don't have an explanation as to why Jake doesn't consistently read the safety, and if it's not a two deep, just lay it out on the sideline and let Lelie run under it.

[yerner]

Stick to drinking your avatar and huffing gas instead of posting from now on. You're an idiot.

This coming from a guy that impersonates another man on the internet.

Look, Mr. BLowmen, I admit my post wasnt the most eloquent reaction to hearing the news that lelie had asked to be traded. And I also agree that Lelie would have been drafted and found some spot on the roster. It pisses me off. sorry.

My point was that the Denver Broncos have backed this guy since day one as have I. Asking to be traded because he is not involved in the offense instead of elevating his play to the point where he cant be ignored is the weak way out. It shows a lack of competivness that leaves me seriously doubting his ability to be a number one anywhere else. Anyone who wants it plays his way to the top spot.

Its just an opinion jerkoff.

[elpasojoe]

I will never forget how excited I was on Draft Day when his name was called in the first round. I really thought he was the answer.
I remember when Adam Shefter wrote in his Denver Post columns he would state "he is going to be a star. He doesn't really run down the field, it is like he glides." Does anyone remember that?
He really pissed me off, however, when he admitted in I think a Rocky Mountain News article, that he did not work as hard as he could have as a young receiver. I started to pull from his bandwagon after that. This past season, there were times he seemed to disappear, and at times seemed disinterested.
I have been told by football fans throughout the country-who are not Bronco fans-that the thing they liked about McCaffrey, Sharpe and Rod Smith was their reputations for a good work ethic. When was that ever said of Lelie?
Trade him, wish him luck and get the most value for him while you can.

[Popps]

Hiding somewhere with all of my pats on the back for being on top of this one from the beginning... ;)

Even a blind hog roosts up a truffle, now and again.

[elsid13]

Hiding somewhere with all of my pats on the back for being on top of this one from the beginning... ;)

With the way your predicting skills works, it means that Lelie will not get traded and get a new contract any day now...

[Taco John]

With the way your predicting skills works, it means that Lelie will not get traded and get a new contract any day now...



Who's talking about predictions? I knew that there was something up way before any of the media said a word. The week I reported that there are Lelie trade talks talking place, Bill Williamson came out saying that it wasn't happening...

So yeah, I forcasted this happening in October... But I also beat everybody to the punch with solid information back on February 2nd.

[elsid13]

Who's talking about predictions? I knew that there was something up way before any of the media said a word. The week I reported that there are Lelie trade talks talking place, Bill Williamson came out saying that it wasn't happening...

So yeah, I forcasted this happening in October... But I also beat everybody to the punch with solid information back on February 2nd.


TJ. I was just f'ing with you. Yes you called it, I recoginize the fact that your sources are better then Burger Bill.

(But please don't pick the Broncos to win)

[Popps]

So yeah, I forcasted this happening in October... But I also beat everybody to the punch with solid information back on February 2nd.

Can you remind us again in 15 minutes? Every 30 just isn't working for us.

[elsid13]

Can you remind us again in 15 minutes? Every 30 just isn't working for us.


If TJ did that, it means you would have to post evey 17 minutes to bang him about something. ;D

[brother love]

Let's trade Lelie and #15 to Detroit for Charles Rodgers and #9.
Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery
example: The Browncos

[Popps]

If TJ did that, it means you would have to post evey 17 minutes to bang him about something. ;D

I'm in and out today, so that's why I'm trying to get a few in now. Can you cover for me for a bit? :thumbs:

[Popps]

Let's trade Lelie and #15 to Detroit for Charles Rodgers and #10.
Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery
example: The Browncos

Let's be fair... we got a lot of Browns.... one turned out to be better than a situational player. I am happy with those moves, though.

I don't know much about Rodgers. He sure came out of college with hype.

[elsid13]

I'm in and out today, so that's why I'm trying to get a few in now. Can you cover for me for a bit? :thumbs:


Interesting an outsource opportunity. Maybe I can get some Indians to do it for you for small fee.

[elsid13]

Let's be fair... we got a lot of Browns.... one turned out to be better than a situational player. I am happy with those moves, though.

I don't know much about Rodgers. He sure came out of college with hype.


Actual the Brownco that I think that going to have big year isn't Warren, but Brown. It the first off season that he isn't getting surgery or waiting to heal. I expect a big season.

[Popps]

Interesting an outsource opportunity. Maybe I can get some Indians to do it for you for small fee.


http://www.usatoday.com/life/gallery/simpsons/apu.jpg

[Popps]

Actual the Brownco that I think that going to have big year isn't Warren, but Brown. It the first off season that he isn't getting surgery or waiting to heal. I expect a big season.

MAN, that would be huge. I'm just not getting my hopes up. He may be the Rod Bernstein of defensive endds.

I don't buy this Kenard Lang business, either. We need a real option on the edge.

[Hulamau]

All this time I thought he was actually learning something from Rod. Instead it just goes to show you that you can't teach character!!:wave:


Ridiculous ., Ash has held his water and supported Jake vocally all the last two years, particularly when JAke was throwing INTs for breakfast in 04!

The guy is coming to his contract year and has the rest of his life's finances on the line and thus a HUGE interest in not being overlooked because a team is structured such with the given scenarios and an established local aging hero at the #1WR where it would be next to impossible for him to get a fair shot at the number 1 unless Rod took a big step down in performance.

I would have had a lot less respect for him if he hadnt made a stand and a statement that he wants to show what he can do.

I'm just very sad it looks like it wont be with us this year. and I suspect we are going to suffer for it in 06 if we don't get Walker.

You think anyone is going to fear Rod running the Fly or go route all day, or Terrell who is more of a possession type guy not with great speed?

Even if we draft Chad Jackson or Holmes they aren't elite WR and will absolutely struggle this coming year at the very least adjusting to the NFL our complex system and Plummer's passes.

Shanny made this bed by never really giving Ash a shot for a few games to see what he could do even though those few games last year where he was at all featureed he shined.

I just hope that our loss winds up being Ash's gain ( please hopeflly not with the Raiders or Chiefs where he would likely be happy to show us twice a year our error in judgement.)

[elsid13]

MAN, that would be huge. I'm just not getting my hopes up. He may be the Rod Bernstein of defensive endds.

I don't buy this Kenard Lang business, either. We need a real option on the edge.

I strongly expect that we hit on DE it going to be big- like picking 2 to 3 in same draft class. Remember all those years that we couldn't get running back then all of sudden the front office figured it out. Just like corner- couldn't find one then we lucked out and found 3 potential all term starters.

Lang is going to surprise folks- i bet he start over EE, and Endenginer (sp) before the end of the season.

[Rich Karlis]

I am really going to miss the 2 redzone receptions Ashley had last year.

[Popps]

Remember all those years that we couldn't get running back then all of sudden the front office figured it out. Just like corner- couldn't find one then we lucked out and found 3 potential all term starters.
Lang is going to surprise folks- i bet he start over EE, and Endenginer (sp) before the end of the season.

Well, Engleberger was awful last year. I don't remember him getting near a quarterback, which is all he was supposed to be good for.

But, I hope you're right. I know what you mean about the dry-spells we had at RB and CB. I remember both well.

Hey, I mean... we used to have our **** together when it came to D-line. Shanny's first two major moves when he got to Denver were on the D-line, then the O-line.

We'll see.

[ColtSteel25]

Lelie will get traded to the Kansas City Chiefs.

[baja]

Interesting an outsource opportunity. Maybe I can get some Indians to do it for you for small fee.

Sure just like everyone else don't even consider the Mexicans all we are good for is lettuce picking, right!

[elsid13]

Sure just like everyone else don't even consider the Mexicans all we are good for is lettuce picking, right!


Isn't your ass in Brazil. Why aren't you on the beach ogle young women in bikinis instead of posting on the mane. You really need a life ;D

[baja]

Isn't your ass in Brazil. Why aren't you on the beach ogle young women in bikinis instead of posting on the mane. You really need a life ;D

Because it's nine at night andf too early to go out (gathering energy for a second round).

And what'd ya think everyone is in your time zone. ;D

I do have some photos to post if someone can tell me how to crop them and post them from i Photo. Popps?

[FLABronco]

Ridiculous ., Ash has held his water and supported Jake vocally all the last two years, particularly when JAke was throwing INTs for breakfast in 04!

The guy is coming to his contract year and has the rest of his life's finances on the line and thus a HUGE interest in not being overlooked because a team is structured such with the given scenarios and an established local aging hero at the #1WR where it would be next to impossible for him to get a fair shot at the number 1 unless Rod took a big step down in performance.

I would have had a lot less respect for him if he hadnt made a stand and a statement that he wants to show what he can do.

I'm just very sad it looks like it wont be with us this year. and I suspect we are going to suffer for it in 06 if we don't get Walker.

You think anyone is going to fear Rod running the Fly or go route all day, or Terrell who is more of a possession type guy not with great speed?

Even if we draft Chad Jackson or Holmes they aren't elite WR and will absolutely struggle this coming year at the very least adjusting to the NFL our complex system and Plummer's passes.

Shanny made this bed by never really giving Ash a shot for a few games to see what he could do even though those few games last year where he was at all featureed he shined.

I just hope that our loss winds up being Ash's gain ( please hopeflly not with the Raiders or Chiefs where he would likely be happy to show us twice a year our error in judgement.)

It makes you wonder if Ashley went to Shanahan with his concerns before going to the media.

[Popps]

Because it's nine at night andf too early to go out (gathering energy for a second round).

And what'd ya think everyone is in your time zone. ;D

I do have some photos to post if someone can tell me how to crop them and post them from i Photo. Popps?

iPhoto has a crop tool built right in. It's on the main bar right at the bottom, as I recall. You can also re-size stuff on export very easily. As for posting, you'd just need to upload them somewhere first. Shutterfly is popular, and there's always good old Yahoo. (Briefcase.. free)