A case for Javon Walker

[Popps]

Just a couple of things to consider about a possible trade...

Javon Walker needs to be a Bronco. He's the most likely player to have a quick impact on this team, particularly the offense. While I feel the defense is the true source of our playoff losses... there's no denying that Rod is getting older and Lelie is on his way out.

"But, He's Injured"
Guys heal from knee injuries these days. I'm not going to give a million examples, but there are some on our own team.

Beyond that, let's contrast Walker's knee situation with drafting a rookie WR...

In all likelihood, Walker would be at full strength by early in the season. But, let's say he's not. Let's say he has an average campaign next year... 800 yards and a few TDs. (In other words, Ashley Lelie numbers) That's still very likely better than any rook is going to do in a Shanahan offense... and the upside? The next year, you've got a veteran stud receiver, totally healed... with a year in the offense.... who is still young.

"But, Green Bay is asking too much"

Really? What if they asked for the #15 pick? Personally, I'd do it. Call me crazy, but there is NO guarantee in the draft at that range... certainly at WR or DE, where we need the most help. We're obviously not serious about the D-line, so I'd take the proven upside of Walker over an unknown draft pick like Jackson.

Once again, this was a Pro Bowl player the year before last... getting better with each game. He looked unstoppable by the end of that season. He showed constant improvement.

But, I know people are in a pre-draft induced state of panic right now, so let's keep it closer to reality...

If you believe some reports, the Pack is looking for a #2 for him.

That is an absolute no-brainer.

I can understand the hesitation for the first round pick, but a 2? Walker has proven he can dominate at the NFL level. We're talking about an insane talent who just needs to heal up a little. Think about it.... if Walker was coming out this year, he'd be the #1 WR taken. He was drafted in the middle first round BEFORE HE PROVED ANYTHING. So, this is a former first rounder who has shown he can dominate??? For a number 2??

"But, he's a pain... he wanted more money"

The one thing people seem to forget about that whole scenario is that Walker CAME BACK and played for the salary he signed for. He didn't miss any games. He just wanted them to re-negotiate. Do I like that tactic? No. Is it common? Yes. He was blasted by his own QB... and while I agree with what Favre said, he was breaking some unwritten football laws, and Walker probably didn't appreciate being the first guy to have his QB call him out like that. So then what happens? He comes back... tears his knee up.
Just a bad scene. Hey, Lelie is already starting to pull some ****, so let's keep in mind... some of this prima donna stuff just comes with the WR territory. They broke the mold when they made Rod Smith.

I'm convinced that there's no reason Walker wouldn't be a major star in our system, and could be kept happy with a competitive contract.
We have to make this trade happen.

There you have it, 8 paragraphs of off-season bull****!

[24champ]

(Being sarcastic)But Popps can Plummer throw the ball to Walker? We just need a new QB like Harrington to take us all the way.

[SoCalBronco]

I wouldnt have a problem giving up a conditional 2007 pick with a floor (to protect DEN if he doesnt get all the way back next year) and a ceiling (to protect GB if he is still a stud). That way Denver can take advantage of the deep 2007 WR (but not defense) draft (Johnson, Samardjzia, Jarrett, Smith, Bowe, Doucet, Caldwell etc.) if he doesnt work out since we would only be giving up a low round pick and still preserve all of its picks in the generally deep 2006 draft.

[Ballhawk]

Just a couple of things to consider about a possible trade...

Javon Walker needs to be a Bronco. He's the most likely player to have a quick impact on this team, particularly the offense. While I feel the defense is the true source of our playoff losses... there's no denying that Rod is getting older and Lelie is on his way out.

"But, He's Injured"
Yes guys come back all the time...some don't. Lets say he lost .15 off his speed going from a 4.4 guy to a 4.55 guy. May not seem much but it is. Even if he does come back in 2007,he is still going to want that contract now, or go the way of FA next year. Why pay top $$$ and have a guy heal himself on our money? On top of which when healthy he will be 29 compared to a 22 in the draft.


"But, Green Bay is asking too much"

I have not seen anything on what they are asking? I have heard rumors that the FO wants a 2nd, but on the packer Message board they have no clue. I would be ok rolling the dice with a conditional third, but I doubt GB would take it.

"But, he's a pain... he wanted more money"

He still does want more money and we would be paying without knowing what we are getting for a year. Not really helping his cause by hanging out and training with TO right now, I am sure he is going to want top 5 money. If that is the case we can keep Lelie and spend that on a WR next year and be in the same boat, No? Maybe even Javon.

There you have it, 3 paragraphs of off-season rebuttle bull****!
Not worth it when we can keep Lelie get the same production as a rehabbing JW. It is not like he is cheap and if we want to sign a WR to top 5 money do it next year in FA.

[SoCalBronco]

Not worth it when we can keep Lelie get the same production as a rehabbing JW. It is not like he is cheap and if we want to sign a WR to top 5 money do it next year in FA.

But by trading Ash now, we will get some benefit, as opposed to next summer when he walks for nothing.

[footstepsfrom#27]

There you have it, 8 paragraphs of off-season bull****!
Yea...well not all of it though...some good points too. But no way would he have been the #1 pick in this draft. Let's not forget that 1300 yards coming from Favre's arm is a lot easier to come by than 1300 from Plummer's arm. He was picked one choice after Lelie, and I see them as roughly equal or a slight edge to Walker IF he's completely healthy. Lelie would put up much better numbers in GB instead of conservative run oriented Denver with a QB who doesn't throw long but once or twice a game. I'm all for an even swap or a 2nd since I agree that he's better than C Jackson or Holmes, but a #1? No way...we need a pass rusher or a stud TE like Davis more, and since it doesn't look like Davis is coming here, let's finally get a defensive end who can put up serioius sack numbers instead of these throw aways we've been trotting out there.

[anthonypacino]

But by trading Ash now, we will get some benefit, as opposed to next summer when he walks for nothing.
very true, i would have felt better if we could have got Moulds, I am a little cautious about JW's knee though, yeah guys heal from that but some don't (Remember TD?) It could really affect the way he plays from now on.

[Ballhawk]

But by trading Ash now, we will get some benefit, as opposed to next summer when he walks for nothing.

We would get a guy that wants top 5 money as a WR, and Im sure he wants it now. If we dont pay it then Im guessing he is gone after a full year too. If we are going to pay the money for a WR pay it next year, and do it when you know the guy is 100%

[watermock]

Why is he eating sushi?

http://www.stillvisions.com/events/tt16/klingon.jpg

[Kaylore]

I agree with Popps. A Second round pick for a proven player, though injured, Seems ok to me. These days you can come back from an ACL inury and still be great.

[Ballhawk]

From my understanding Walker is in the final year of his contract, so why rent a player that will not be fully recovered (if the 2 yr rule applies) and that has to learn our system for a year over a guy that knows it if they will both be playing elsewhere in 2007?

Also Walker has stated that he does not enjoy playing in the cold, so him reupping may be unlikely as well as very expensive.

[2KBack]

very true, i would have felt better if we could have got Moulds, I am a little cautious about JW's knee though, yeah guys heal from that but some don't (Remember TD?) It could really affect the way he plays from now on.

It should be pointed out that TD had a list of injuries his last few years, If I'm not mistaken I thought I read somewhere that it was n't even the knee that had the ACL tear that forced the retirement. He had degenerative arthritis.

[anthonypacino]

It should be pointed out that TD had a list of injuries his last few years, If I'm not mistaken I thought I read somewhere that it was n't even the knee that had the ACL tear that forced the retirement. He had degenerative arthritis.
Due to the knee injury...trust me I have the same thing

[Taco John]

I sure wouldn't want to trade our first pick for Javon...

[Elway777]

Not worth it when we can keep Lelie get the same production as a rehabbing JW. It is not like he is cheap and if we want to sign a WR to top 5 money do it next year in FA. I think your right about this .The Broncos should just keep Lelei in case Walker is not ready to play. If the Bronco do trade for walker it would be 61 pick for Walker and a green bay 5 round draft pick. Take or leave it .The bronco coulld still draft Jackson or Holmes with 15 pick ,so they are not under any pressure to make a deal. If the Walker trade goes down then the Broncos draft 15 .DW2 37 Bullocks 61 trade for Walker 68 Wroten or 15 WimBley or Lawson 37 Klop 61 trade for Walker 68 Wroten

[Ballhawk]

I think your right about this .The Broncos should just keep Lelei in case Walker is not ready to play. If the Bronco do trade for walker it would be 61 pick for Walker and a green bay 5 round draft pick. Take or leave it .The bronco coulld still draft Jackson or Holmes with 15 pick ,so they are not under any pressure to make a deal. If the Walker trade goes down then the Broncos draft 15 .DW2 37 Bullocks 61 trade for Walker 68 Wroten or 15 WimBley or Lawson 37 Klop 61 trade for Walker 68 Wroten

Repeating myself I do not want to rent JW for a year. Paticularly for a 2nd round draft pick.

[SoCalBronco]

Repeating myself I do not want to rent JW for a year. Paticularly for a 2nd round draft pick.

If he turns out to be a big time stud again, we can simply franchise him. He's not going to turn down 8 mill a year in that situation. And Denver should start to have some room in the cap now. We got the albatross known as Trevor Pryce off our necks. All the dead money from the previous years (SOB, IHOP etc.) is gone. Denver is also sitting on about 4 mill of extra money this year. If push comes to shove, we can simply give Walker an extra million or two right now to shut him up and build goodwill.

If he ends up not a stud, but simply OK, we will have the cap space to be a competitive bidder if we dont franchise him but still want to keep him. If not, 2007 is a deep WR draft.

[Ballhawk]

If he turns out to be a big time stud again, we can simply franchise him. He's not going to turn down 8 mill a year in that situation. And Denver should start to have some room in the cap now. We got the albatross known as Trevor Pryce off our necks. All the dead money from the previous years (SOB, IHOP etc.) is gone. Denver is also sitting on about 4 mill of extra money this year. If push comes to shove, we can simply give Walker an extra million or two right now to shut him up and build goodwill.

If he ends up not a stud, but simply OK, we will have the cap space to be a competitive bidder if we dont franchise him but still want to keep him. If not, 2007 is a deep WR draft.

From my understanding Franchise tag would be around 11 mil (average of top five). I also do not think we even could as he needs to have 3 with us to be franchised.

Only way this would work is to have a 5 year deal signed with an escalator in the 2nd year. That would mean that he would for go a signing bounus for a big roster bonus in year two. Do you think he wants to go play for cheap with no quaranteed money after doing so and busting up his knee? It is going to be a risk for any team that signs him, because if he is not back to old self...say hello to more dead money.

[cutthemdown]

very true, i would have felt better if we could have got Moulds, I am a little cautious about JW's knee though, yeah guys heal from that but some don't (Remember TD?) It could really affect the way he plays from now on.
Terrell Davis knee would just not stop swelling after he worked it. My guess is that it got degenerative which happens sometimes when you lose cartlidge. Only time will tell when it comes to knee. Some guys actually feel its stronger afterwards because they rehab it so hard. I think Walker will bounce back but thats just a guess.

[anthonypacino]

Terrell Davis knee would just not stop swelling after he worked it. My guess is that it got degenerative which happens sometimes when you lose cartlidge. Only time will tell when it comes to knee. Some guys actually feel its stronger afterwards because they rehab it so hard. I think Walker will bounce back but thats just a guess.
He very well might, so I would be willing to trade Lelie for him but not any draft picks and Lelie, the uncertianity is too great to risk that much on it. I understand about the knee feeling better, mine did too, but learning how to walk and run again I favored the other knee more, then I blew it out for over compensating

[meangene]

I'm OK with a #2 for him as long as we negotiate a long term deal as part of the trade. We will probably never get him cheaper than right now with him coming off the knee and desperately wanting out of GB.

[Drek]

Body catchers look a lot better when HOF QBs with cannon arms are feeding them the ball.

Pass, if you think Plummer has a hard time hitting Lelie in stride, wait and see aligator arms Javon out there.

[broncohaven]

Any trade involving Lelie or Walker, or both is going to be contingent on signing each to a new deal, which destroys the "renting" Walker theory. Saying that Walker would give similar production to Lelie is silly in my book. Walker is a much more accomplished possession reciever than Lelie, which is just what the Broncos need. Especially if all the Lelie apologists are to be believed that Plummer just can't get him the ball deep.

Walker caught 89 balls in 2004, for twelve TDs. That's only 7 catches shy of Lelie's two best years combined, and as many touchdowns as Lelie has in his entire career. Saying that catching passes from Favre is easier than catching balls from Plummer is absurd. Walker was the only weapon on that team in 2004, and he still slayed teams.

The price for Walker is not going to be a first, or imo even a 2nd. A trade for Walker would likely involve Lelie and a token draft choice who would have a slim chance of landing on the practice squad. Which would make the trade a no brainer in my book.

Walker is the only player "available" that can significantly upgrade our offense. He'll be a full year removed from the knee injury in week one, and will be full speed.

[watermock]

From my understanding Walker is in the final year of his contract, so why rent a player that will not be fully recovered (if the 2 yr rule applies) and that has to learn our system for a year over a guy that knows it if they will both be playing elsewhere in 2007?

Also Walker has stated that he does not enjoy playing in the cold, so him reupping may be unlikely as well as very expensive.

There isn't a "two year rule" today. Every knee trauma is different. Cullpepper shredded everything late in the year. Walker was said to be 8 to 12 months and much less serious and got injured in the season opener.

We would have a contract in place for Walker before trading for him.

I still smell smoke around Dove Valley.

[Ballhawk]

Any trade involving Lelie or Walker, or both is going to be contingent on signing each to a new deal, which destroys the "renting" Walker theory. Saying that Walker would give similar production to Lelie is silly in my book. Walker is a much more accomplished possession reciever than Lelie, which is just what the Broncos need. Especially if all the Lelie apologists are to be believed that Plummer just can't get him the ball deep.

Walker caught 89 balls in 2004, for twelve TDs. That's only 7 catches shy of Lelie's two best years combined, and as many touchdowns as Lelie has in his entire career. Saying that catching passes from Favre is easier than catching balls from Plummer is absurd. Walker was the only weapon on that team in 2004, and he still slayed teams.

The price for Walker is not going to be a first, or imo even a 2nd. A trade for Walker would likely involve Lelie and a token draft choice who would have a slim chance of landing on the practice squad. Which would make the trade a no brainer in my book.

Walker is the only player "available" that can significantly upgrade our offense. He'll be a full year removed from the knee injury in week one, and will be full speed.
If JW's knee was better then ya go get him he is decent. However it is not. Do you really want to risk 10 mil (about what he is looking for) to find out. I dont. So we rent him and hope to resign.

In Javon's big year, 2004. He compiled 511 of his yards in 3 games. All losses. Farve chucked the ball up 44 times in each game. That same year JW had 7 games where he caught 3 or fewer passes, all but one were wins. I doubt JW will see that many catches again if he plays here, expect more of the 3 catches per game. As far as being the only weapon, that is pure BS! They have a RB that accounted for about 1500 yrds named Green. They had another WR that posted just about the same numbers as JW named Driver. In fact it is Driver who still put up 1200 yards when JW and Green went down last year.

The upgrade of Walker over Lelie for one year is not worth a number 2 pick and the risk to our salary cap.



Yes we can give JW the contract he wants, but if the knee does not bounce back we could eat a 10 mil signing bonus, otherwise we have to rent him and hope to sign him.

[BombsOverBaghdad]

Any trade involving Lelie or Walker, or both is going to be contingent on signing each to a new deal, which destroys the "renting" Walker theory. Saying that Walker would give similar production to Lelie is silly in my book. Walker is a much more accomplished possession reciever than Lelie, which is just what the Broncos need. Especially if all the Lelie apologists are to be believed that Plummer just can't get him the ball deep.

Walker caught 89 balls in 2004, for twelve TDs. That's only 7 catches shy of Lelie's two best years combined, and as many touchdowns as Lelie has in his entire career. Saying that catching passes from Favre is easier than catching balls from Plummer is absurd. Walker was the only weapon on that team in 2004, and he still slayed teams.

The price for Walker is not going to be a first, or imo even a 2nd. A trade for Walker would likely involve Lelie and a token draft choice who would have a slim chance of landing on the practice squad. Which would make the trade a no brainer in my book.

Walker is the only player "available" that can significantly upgrade our offense. He'll be a full year removed from the knee injury in week one, and will be full speed.

Well stated! I agree with both BH & SoCal -- JW would be a difference maker in our offense.

[Drek]

If JW's knee was better then ya go get him he is decent. However it is not. Do you really want to risk 10 mil (about what he is looking for) to find out. I dont. So we rent him and hope to resign.

In Javon's big year, 2004. He compiled 511 of his yards in 3 games. All losses. Farve chucked the ball up 44 times in each game. That same year JW had 7 games where he caught 3 or fewer passes, all but one were wins. I doubt JW will see that many catches again if he plays here, expect more of the 3 catches per game. As far as being the only weapon, that is pure BS! They have a RB that accounted for about 1500 yrds named Green. They had another WR that posted just about the same numbers as JW named Driver. In fact it is Driver who still put up 1200 yards when JW and Green went down last year.

The upgrade of Walker over Lelie for one year is not worth a number 2 pick and the risk to our salary cap.



Yes we can give JW the contract he wants, but if the knee does not bounce back we could eat a 10 mil signing bonus, otherwise we have to rent him and hope to sign him.
Best post in this thread and on the Javon Walker topic in general.

[Steve Sewell]

From my understanding Walker is in the final year of his contract, so why rent a player that will not be fully recovered (if the 2 yr rule applies) and that has to learn our system for a year over a guy that knows it if they will both be playing elsewhere in 2007?

Also Walker has stated that he does not enjoy playing in the cold, so him reupping may be unlikely as well as very expensive.

Denver would never consumate a trade with GB for Walker unless a contract extension or a totally new contract between him and the Broncos was negotiated first. This is what Washington did with Portis, if I remember correctly. So this is a moot point.

[Orange_Beard]

A case? I thought we might offer draft picks. I would think being in Wisconson they would have plenty of "cases".

Interesting idea.

[broncohaven]

If JW's knee was better then ya go get him he is decent. However it is not. Do you really want to risk 10 mil (about what he is looking for) to find out. I dont. So we rent him and hope to resign.

In Javon's big year, 2004. He compiled 511 of his yards in 3 games. All losses. Farve chucked the ball up 44 times in each game. That same year JW had 7 games where he caught 3 or fewer passes, all but one were wins. I doubt JW will see that many catches again if he plays here, expect more of the 3 catches per game. As far as being the only weapon, that is pure BS! They have a RB that accounted for about 1500 yrds named Green. They had another WR that posted just about the same numbers as JW named Driver. In fact it is Driver who still put up 1200 yards when JW and Green went down last year.

The upgrade of Walker over Lelie for one year is not worth a number 2 pick and the risk to our salary cap.



Yes we can give JW the contract he wants, but if the knee does not bounce back we could eat a 10 mil signing bonus, otherwise we have to rent him and hope to sign him.
I didn't realize you were JW's PT. I've already stated that there's no way a trade would happen that would not involve signing Walker to a new deal. And I'm pretty sure the Broncos would give him a physical. But, since you want to glaze over the points you don't want to address, I'll say it again. A trade won't happen without signing Walker to a new deal. Please stop with the "renting" arguments, they are invalid.

Ashley averaged 2.6 catches per game last year, what's your point? Take away the production in those three games, and he still put up more yards than Lelie in the other 13. When has lelie put up 500 yards in three games? Yo make that sound like it's a negative.

So if Green Bay had so many other weapons that would say that he had less opportunities to put up the numbers he did. Makes his 89 catches even more impressive.

[Old Dude]

Let's assume we acquire Walker with a draft pick or picks to Green Bay, and that Lelie is not part of the deal. Let's also assume that the Broncos decide that Ash needs to be traded sooner rather than later (which I'm not at all sure about, since I think we'd want to make sure Walker is recovered)

What do you guys think Ash would bring on the open market in terms of a draft pick? Clearly not a first rounder. But a 2d? Late 2d? 3d?

[bronco militia]

I think the injury aspect of of this potential deal is getting way overlooked by the fans and the media...

[Rascal]

Let's assume we acquire Walker with a draft pick or picks to Green Bay, and that Lelie is not part of the deal. Let's also assume that the Broncos decide that Ash needs to be traded sooner rather than later (which I'm not at all sure about, since I think we'd want to make sure Walker is recovered)

What do you guys think Ash would bring on the open market in terms of a draft pick? Clearly not a first rounder. But a 2d? Late 2d? 3d?

If he gets a second I'd be thrilled.

[Popps]

It was supposed to read..... "If Walker was coming out this year, he'd be the #1 WR chosen.

I'm guessing most of you figured that, but.. oops.

[Popps]

Not worth it when we can keep Lelie get the same production as a rehabbing JW. It is not like he is cheap and if we want to sign a WR to top 5 money do it next year in FA.

Well, first off... it's speculation that Lelie would play as well. He's never played as well as Walker played before the injury. (Pro Bowl.) I only compared him to Lelie for worst case scenario reference.
Plus, think a year forward... we'd have a stud WR locked up who knows our system. If we just sat tight, Lelie would be gone, then we're at the mercy of who is out there in free agency.

[Popps]

From my understanding Walker is in the final year of his contract, so why rent a player that will not be fully recovered (if the 2 yr rule applies) and that has to learn our system for a year over a guy that knows it if they will both be playing elsewhere in 2007?

Also Walker has stated that he does not enjoy playing in the cold, so him reupping may be unlikely as well as very expensive.

You'd obviously have to extend him. I thought that was somewhat inherent in my babbling. Maybe I should have written it down, but yea... of course you'd need to give him a contract.

[Drek]

You'd obviously have to extend him. I thought that was somewhat inherent in my babbling. Maybe I should have written it down, but yea... of course you'd need to give him a contract.
Walker wants a fat extension, sorry, not real cool on handing those over to guys coming off ACL tears.

[footstepsfrom#27]

It was supposed to read..... "If Walker was coming out this year, he'd be the #1 WR chosen.

I'm guessing most of you figured that, but.. oops.
Unfortunately...Lelie would also be the #1 WR picked. Chad Jackson and Santonio Holmes are not worth a top 20 pick in this draft, which is where both Lelie (19th) and Walker (20th) both went...and in a very weak WR draft like this one, both would have gone higher than either of these guys.

Walker is good. Will he be AS good in Denver? I doubt it...not in terms of numbers anyway. We don't have Favre, and we don't throw it as much as they do, nor should we. Is he healthy? That's my primary concern. IF he is healthy, he's worth a 2nd (61) but nothing more, certainly not a 2nd and Lelie, which is to much for a guy coming off a knee injury. As for Lelie...there's no point in keeping him for anything other than insurance because if Walker is healthy, Lelie drops to #3, and if he wasn't happy at #2 you can imagine how pleased he'll be riding the pine with Todd Devoe next to him.

We'll get nothing for Lelie next year. I would try to do a seperate deal involving their #5 pick in round one. If the Packers would take the #15 pick, plus Lelie and a #2 next year for the 6th pick, I'd do that deal. Next year's 2nd is not going to be as good a player and Lelie won't play anyway if he stays here and Walker comes in. It makes sense for GB too. They get a deep threat they can take advantage of more readily than we could since they still have Favre who can get it deep way better than Plummer, and they only move down 10 spots, meaning a LB like Chad Greenway or Manny Lawson is still there for them and they pick up a #2 next year. We get the best TE in the draft, put a very good receiver next to him and still have plenty of ammo. We emerge looking like this:

#5- Vernon Davis
#37- Mathias Kiwanunga
#61- Javon Walker
#68- Charles Spencer

Now we've got Walker, Rod and VD for Jake to throw it to and we still addressed both the pass rush and the O-line with 3 4th rounders left to either move up or snag the sleeper RB or Safety we want. The offense suddenly looks a lot less one-dimensional and we have a situational pass rusher who might turn into a starter on the D-line

[Popps]

We're not going to draft Davis, man. We're just not. I had to get over us not going after Williams, so I'd recommend V.D. fans start doing the same. We wouldn't have traded away our #22 if we were serious about moving up.

But, I do like your draft picks.

[Popps]

Body catchers look a lot better when HOF QBs with cannon arms are feeding them the ball.

Pass, if you think Plummer has a hard time hitting Lelie in stride, wait and see aligator arms Javon out there.

Huh?

I'm guessing you haven't watched the guy play much.

Positives: Tall, long-limbed athlete with the ability to add more bulk to his frame with no dropoff in quickness … Shows lean muscle definement … Has the strength and initial explosion to bust through the jam … Runs tight up-field routes and does an excellent job finding the sideline and adjusting to keep his feet inbounds … Quick to come back for the poorly thrown pass … Natural hands catcher who extends and plucks the ball with ease … His height gives him great advantage combating defenders for the ball in traffic … Has a smooth stride to get to the long ball … Very flexible adjusting to the ball in flight … Strong runner after the catch … Does a nice job of securing the ball before turning up field … Has the power to break through tackles and is very effective using that strength up field as a cut blocker.

"Body catcher?" I don't think so. Walker is a long-armed, pass snatcher. He's the exact opposite of of a body catcher and furthermore, he's exactly the kind of WR a guy like Plummer needs. While I'm a supporter of Plummer, he's not Troy Aikman... few QBs are.

Walker is well known for his hands, athleticism and pass-catching ability. He's also strong and his ability to run after the catch is as good as any young WR in the league.

Where you got that body-catch stuff is beyond me. It's simply not accurate, not even a little bit.

The knock on Walker coming out of school was that he was raw. He played baseball in college as well, and had just recently settled on football full-time. Well, he's got a couple years of NFL experience and the "raw" knock no longer applies.

[watermock]

We're not going to draft Davis, man. We're just not. I had to get over us not going after Williams, so I'd recommend V.D. fans start doing the same. We wouldn't have traded away our #22 if we were serious about moving up.

But, I do like your draft picks.

That is a total assertion. The idiocy was that leilie and 22 would land him. Now SF has the 22 and the 6 and a cap problem. There is absolutely nothing preventing Denver from throwing the 15 and Lelie in at this point to get to 6.

Nothing. Denver would get VD and have two seconds and a third, and three 4ths, SF would have 15 and 22 and Lelie.

That gives us Davis and 6 more picks thru the fourth round.

[Popps]

That is a total assertion. The idiocy was that leilie and 22 would land him. Now SF has the 22 and the 6 and a cap problem. There is absolutely nothing preventing Denver from throwing the 15 and Lelie in at this point to get to 6.

Nothing. Denver would get VD and have two seconds and a third, and three 4ths, SF would have 15 and 22 and Lelie.

That gives us Davis and 6 more picks thru the fourth round.

No doubt, it's an assumption.... and you know what happens when you assume.

The 15 and Lelie to get to #6? Man, as much as I want Williams... I'd do cartwheels, even if we landed Davis with that deal. That assumes that SF puts the value of a #20 (or so) draft pick on Lelie, which is absolute lunacy.

I don't think Davis is the way to go for us, but at this stage... it's probably better than sitting back and trying to catch crumbs.

Even if we did, we could still make a move for Walker. Let's surround Jake with some real talent.

[footstepsfrom#27]

SF won't trade out of the 6th spot but GB might trade out of the 5th spot, especially since they would need a receiver to replace Walker and obviously they would want the #15 spot, but that won't give them value if they need a receiver since neither Jackson or Holmes should go that high. Trading Walker leaves Favre with only one proven guy (Driver) to throw to. So getting Lelie in a seperate deal plus a #2 next year and the #15 makes sense for them. They don't get the top rated LB in Hawk but they do get the second best guy in Lawson or Greenway and they still get an extra #2 next year.

It works for both teams. Do it Shanny!

[watermock]

I've thought about that as well, but Lelie would want to go to SF, not GB. That doesn't mean Walker is out of the picture tho.

Our draft position has been strenghtened considering noone thought Wash. would win a playoff game.

Draft Day should be lively....T-Minus 8 days....

[Popps]

Does anyone else feel like the chances of any deal getting done are closing with each day, though? We're not really a big draft day mover/shaker, by nature.

I hope we move on the Walker thing, but as time passes.. I grow less optimistic. Just seems like it would be done already. Maybe the SF trade had something to do with it. Still holding out hope.

[Rascal]

I'm not expecting Walker to get moved till the week before the draft. If it's two days before the draft I'll be concerned.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Just a couple of things to consider about a possible trade...

Javon Walker needs to be a Bronco. He's the most likely player to have a quick impact on this team, particularly the offense. While I feel the defense is the true source of our playoff losses... there's no denying that Rod is getting older and Lelie is on his way out.

"But, He's Injured"
Guys heal from knee injuries these days. I'm not going to give a million examples, but there are some on our own team.

Beyond that, let's contrast Walker's knee situation with drafting a rookie WR...

In all likelihood, Walker would be at full strength by early in the season. But, let's say he's not. Let's say he has an average campaign next year... 800 yards and a few TDs. (In other words, Ashley Lelie numbers) That's still very likely better than any rook is going to do in a Shanahan offense... and the upside? The next year, you've got a veteran stud receiver, totally healed... with a year in the offense.... who is still young.

"But, Green Bay is asking too much"

Really? What if they asked for the #15 pick? Personally, I'd do it. Call me crazy, but there is NO guarantee in the draft at that range... certainly at WR or DE, where we need the most help. We're obviously not serious about the D-line, so I'd take the proven upside of Walker over an unknown draft pick like Jackson.

Once again, this was a Pro Bowl player the year before last... getting better with each game. He looked unstoppable by the end of that season. He showed constant improvement.

But, I know people are in a pre-draft induced state of panic right now, so let's keep it closer to reality...

If you believe some reports, the Pack is looking for a #2 for him.

That is an absolute no-brainer.

I can understand the hesitation for the first round pick, but a 2? Walker has proven he can dominate at the NFL level. We're talking about an insane talent who just needs to heal up a little. Think about it.... if Walker was coming out this year, he'd be the #1 WR taken. He was drafted in the middle first round BEFORE HE PROVED ANYTHING. So, this is a former first rounder who has shown he can dominate??? For a number 2??

"But, he's a pain... he wanted more money"

The one thing people seem to forget about that whole scenario is that Walker CAME BACK and played for the salary he signed for. He didn't miss any games. He just wanted them to re-negotiate. Do I like that tactic? No. Is it common? Yes. He was blasted by his own QB... and while I agree with what Favre said, he was breaking some unwritten football laws, and Walker probably didn't appreciate being the first guy to have his QB call him out like that. So then what happens? He comes back... tears his knee up.
Just a bad scene. Hey, Lelie is already starting to pull some ****, so let's keep in mind... some of this prima donna stuff just comes with the WR territory. They broke the mold when they made Rod Smith.

I'm convinced that there's no reason Walker wouldn't be a major star in our system, and could be kept happy with a competitive contract.
We have to make this trade happen.

There you have it, 8 paragraphs of off-season bull****!

I have no real problem with any of that, assuming we don't blow up our cap for him. EXCEPT that they broke the mold with Hines Ward.

[Popps]

I have no real problem with any of that, assuming we don't blow up our cap for him. EXCEPT that they broke the mold with Hines Ward.

Very true.

[jonny1]

Hines Ward is just a drafted Rod Smith . . . 8-)

[chaz]

Body catchers look a lot better when HOF QBs with cannon arms are feeding them the ball.

Pass, if you think Plummer has a hard time hitting Lelie in stride, wait and see aligator arms Javon out there.


wtf...how did you ever pull this out of your ass...

[Popps]

wtf...how did you ever pull this out of your ass...



Walker is anything but a "body catcher." From college.. to the pros, he's a pass-snatcher, long arms, fights for balls, can adjust to balls in the air, etc.
He's everything that Lelie is not. Plus more bulk, just as fast and MUCH more physical.

He will absolutely destroy teams in our offense.

This needs to happen.

[Clockwork Orange]

I'm all for it. Get it done.

[2KBack]

Walker is anything but a "body catcher." From college.. to the pros, he's a pass-snatcher, long arms, fights for balls, can adjust to balls in the air, etc.
He's everything that Lelie is not. Plus more bulk, just as fast and MUCH more physical.

He will absolutely destroy teams in our offense.

This needs to happen.

Pre-roids David Boston like? How did Plummer do with that guy?

[ludo21]

Walker is anything but a "body catcher." From college.. to the pros, he's a pass-snatcher, long arms, fights for balls, can adjust to balls in the air, etc.
He's everything that Lelie is not. Plus more bulk, just as fast and MUCH more physical.

He will absolutely destroy teams in our offense.

This needs to happen.

so when he goes deep and burns his CB Plummer will hit him in stride right? Or will he have to make acrobatic catches everytime too?

I forget did Lelie fight for this one?

[Popps]

Pre-roids David Boston like? How did Plummer do with that guy?

Not too shabby, as I recall.

[Ballhawk]

I say it is Stallworth. Another injury prone guy...geesh.

[2KBack]

Not too shabby, as I recall.

Psh, is a 16 yrd average on 98 catches anything special. Plummer sure does suck at the long ball.

[ludo21]

Psh, is a 16 yrd average on 98 catches anything special. Plummer sure does suck at the long ball.


A lot of those were YAC tho. Boston was Huge and took a lot of short ones to the house!

let me go check for sure, but i remember a lot of long Boston TD runs that year.

[ludo21]

Interesting......I didnt know that the Boston/Plummer team never made the playoffs.

When they made the playoffs in 98' Sanders was their leading reciever, Boston didnt com in till 99.

Their 2000-2001 seasons were impressive tho.

[2KBack]

A lot of those were YAC tho. Boston was Huge and took a lot of short ones to the house!

let me go check for sure, but i remember a lot of long Boston TD runs that year.

Some were I know for sure, but that's also the demension that Ash lacks. Boston wasn't as big then about 220 (walker is 215), ash is 200. Boston could burn too though, and Plummer hit him plenty. I just don't think Ash and Plummer worked together very much. I mentioned in another thread, when Plummer would scramble Ash looked lost. Jake is some sort of freak on the run, not only is he more accurate, but somehow he has a stronger arm. The entire offense in Arizona revolved around jake running around and hucking it deep to Boston. Lelie never learned what to do when Jake was running around. I can't even count the times Jake actually overthrew Lelie, because Ash stopped running on the play. I would hope walker coming from Farveville would know what to do in those situations, and he adds the YAC potential.

[Ballhawk]

Boston was a top 5 WR until he went Roid. The guy was big, fast and strong with nice hands.

[ludo21]

Some were I know for sure, but that's also the demension that Ash lacks. Boston wasn't as big then about 220 (walker is 215), ash is 200. Boston could burn too though, and Plummer hit him plenty. I just don't think Ash and Plummer worked together very much. I mentioned in another thread, when Plummer would scramble Ash looked lost. Jake is some sort of freak on the run, not only is he more accurate, but somehow he has a stronger arm. The entire offense in Arizona revolved around jake running around and hucking it deep to Boston. Lelie never learned what to do when Jake was running around. I can't even count the times Jake actually overthrew Lelie, because Ash stopped running on the play. I would hope walker coming from Farveville would know what to do in those situations, and he adds the YAC potential.


To Lelies defense tho, most throws when he was wide open it was underthrown, so he prob slowed down caz of that.

And since the camera angle isnt too wide i cant really say he was lost, because i never i saw it as the play was rolling.

[2KBack]

To Lelies defense tho, most throws when he was wide open it was underthrown, so he prob slowed down caz of that.

And since the camera angle isnt too wide i cant really say he was lost, because i never i saw it as the play was rolling.

I'm not calling Lelie out on it completely, I just get the feeling he never really learned to adjust to his QB. You could see there was some strain between Ash, Plummer and the coaches becasue they could never synch up. It would have been cool if they could have looked into it and practiced together during the offseason, but ash decided to take his ball and go home.

[ludo21]

I'm not calling Lelie out on it completely, I just get the feeling he never really learned to adjust to his QB. You could see there was some strain between Ash, Plummer and the coaches becasue they could never synch up. It would have been cool if they could have looked into it and practiced together during the offseason, but ash decided to take his ball and go home.


Even before that their was speculation of a trade tho. Im sure it is VERY mutual thing. Lelie knows he is being mis used and has no real connection with Plummer, as does the team. Its the best for both parties at this point (AS LONG as we get another legit WR in return)

[2KBack]

Even before that their was speculation of a trade tho. Im sure it is VERY mutual thing. Lelie knows he is being mis used and has no real connection with Plummer, as does the team. Its the best for both parties at this point (AS LONG as we get another legit WR in return)

Yep, I don't think a tall skinny WR will ever work well here. Unless you're an animal like Eddie Mac.

[ludo21]

Yep, I don't think a tall skinny WR will ever work well here. Unless you're an animal like Eddie Mac.


To be fair Eddie had the best QB in history throwing to him as well.:thumbsup:

With Elways arm, Lelie would have thrived with him at the helm.

[2KBack]

To be fair Eddie had the best QB in history throwing to him as well.:thumbsup:

With Elways arm, Lelie would have thrived with him at the helm.


Eddie had his best year with the worst QB in broncos history actually. 101 catches 1300 yards and 9 TDs. Then that same QB ended his career in the first game of the next season.

This QB's name shall remain a untyped.

[Popps]

A lot of those were YAC tho. Boston was Huge and took a lot of short ones to the house!

let me go check for sure, but i remember a lot of long Boston TD runs that year.

Of course, I mean... Jake Plummer couldn't have done anything productive or positive.

Lelie is a wuss and he'll be gone soon.

I'll sleep fine.

[ludo21]

Of course, I mean... Jake Plummer couldn't have done anything productive or positive.

Lelie is a wuss and he'll be gone soon.

I'll sleep fine.

Of course he could have, Plummers game is short range, that was my point.

Lelie is a puss in the RZ, no doubt, but without getting another WR, we will be hurting next year.

[Popps]

Of course he could have, Plummers game is short range, that was my point.

Lelie is a puss in the RZ, no doubt, but without getting another WR, we will be hurting next year.

We'll get someone. Hopefully Shanny is on board with the Walker thing. He's a much better fit, and just all around better, imo.

[kamakazi_kal]

Eddie had his best year with the worst QB in broncos history actually. 101 catches 1300 yards and 9 TDs. Then that same QB ended his career in the first game of the next season.

This QB's name shall remain a untyped.

he also ruined TD's knee ........ i hate that bastard :chairhit:

and i think our new OC could really use javon.....lelie just seems a little "soft" to me.
he never really has shown any toughness....if he goes to another team as #1 wr........ can you say..."peerless price"

[SoCalBronco]

*How the Broncos have positioned themselves to acquire Javon Walker*



04/20...If you read our 04/19 HOT Prospect News and NFL Rumor section yesterday morning the Broncos/Niners trade didn't come as a surprise...in yesterdays column we pointed out that the Broncos were on the verge of being involved in a pre-draft trade in which they would acquire Packers WR Javon Walker...the trade didn't exactly play out the way it was told to us by our source but the bottom line is the Broncos are now in position to land Walker either before the Draft or on Draft day...it's believed that the Broncos didn't want to surrender either of their first round picks for Walker and their own second round pick (#61) wasn't high enough for the Packers to consider dealing him because the Eagles (another team in the hunt for Walker) had ammunition (a higher pick in the second round #45 overall) to offer the Packers for Javon...another player in the mix for Walker (the Niners) were also said to be interested in him and were considering offering their own second round pick #37 to the Packers for Walker...what the Broncos accomplished in their trade with the Niners on Wednesday was they virtually eliminated the Niners from acquiring Walker because they own both their second and third round picks and they trumped the Eagles by moving ahead of them in the second round and now have a higher pick #37 to offer the Packers for their disgruntled star...all in all...the Broncos and Packers have yet to agree on a deal for Walker... but the ground-work appears to be set for the Broncos to have clear sailing from here on out.

http://www.eastcoastsportsnews.com/2006Draft.html

Here is the 4/19 report referenced in the above piece (also from the same site)

04/19...Rumor rumblings....the rumors that the Houston Texans may pass on Reggie Bush and deal the first pick in the Draft have been picking up steam this week because the New York Jets appear very interested in Bush and held a mini private workout for the USC star on Tuesday...people close to the situation insist that the Jets are just "covering all the bases" but would be very interested in Bush if he somehow fell to them in the Draft...this may be true.. but we believe what we believed and stated all along...and that is that the Texans would really like to move out of the pick and take either DE Mario Williams or OT D'Brickashaw Ferguson a player that fills a bigger need for the team...stay tuned!...elsewhere...the Javon Walker trade rumors have also been picking up steam this week with the Eagles, Broncos and Niners being the teams showing the most interest...the most interesting nugget that we found out on Tuesday relating to Walker is the Broncos and Niners might be involved in a pre-draft trade (which could include Walker) with the Broncos sending the Packers both of their first round picks (#15 and #22) in exchange for the Packers fifth pick overall...according to the NFL trade chart both of the Broncos picks are worth about 1830 points while the Packers fifth pick overall is worth 1700 points...which would make Walker worth 130 points (or a late 3rd round pick) according to the trade chart...we feel that Walker should be worth at least a second round pick (if healthy) which would tip this deal in favor of the Broncos...we were told that it's likely that Walker will be dealt before the Draft because of Walkers contract situation and any team that plans on acquiring him will need time to work out a deal with him which could be a sticky situation because both sides may not agree on his worth since Walker is coming off of a serious injury...all in all...it appears that Walker will be dealt before the Draft...stay tuned!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
An early 2nd is a little high....Denver MUST check out the knee etc. beforehand and resolve contractual issues. The upside ofcourse is a pro bowl type WR. I am lukewarm about the idea of such a high pick though...I love draft picks. However, if we can swing something for Ash (even a late 3rd), it would help to make up for that lost 2nd, or perhaps swap Ash and the previously rejected 4th (or even the 3rd if Denver really wants Walker) to get it done.

Interesting stuff. Shanny is definitely burning the midnight oil at the Valley...

[phisig150]

Rather have Rodgers

[Master___Pain]

Rather have Rodgers

As in Charles? Good call.

[Malcontent]

As in Charles? Good call.

Wow..stunning commentary! And thanks for drudging up old emails and gracing us with your presence.:clown:

[telluride]

I love these blast-from-the-past threads, if only to take note of just how dunderheaded most of the OM posters can be. (I include myself, of course.)

The only person who covers himself in glory here is Popps. Well done sir!

[Master___Pain]

Wow..stunning commentary! And thanks for drudging up old emails and gracing us with your presence.:clown:

Um, I did not dredge it up. Popps posted it in the other Walker thread. I found that last comment funny. :clown:

[Popps]

Yea, well.... you can also find my posts where I said Watts would be a full-time starter on his way to succeeding Rod Smith.

Hit some, miss some. :)