Send the BIG OIL COMPANIES a message -- buy gas from anyone but them

[GonzoLays]

Got this in a email:

"Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!"

eh, worth a try.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Got this in a email:

"Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!"

eh, worth a try.

I talked to a friend of mine who is a Dean of a school that I used to go to, and his school's major donor is a stockholder in a major oil company. He made a 36 million dollar increase last year in his oil investment. He's just one of many big-time shareholders in the company.

Americans are getting fleeced.

[spdirty]

won't happen. And I get the cheapest gas I find.

Itd be better if those ****ing enviro ******s in the Senate would actually let us get our own oil! ANWAR, the Gulf Coast, hell, I heard right in Colorado, Utah, Montana, Kansas, and a few other states we have more oil than Saudi!!! Yet those ****ers wont let us get it!!!!!! Not only that, but they also wont let us build a ****ing refinery!!! Assholes.

Then they bring these oil execs in and all those ****s do is grandstand and lecture them about their profits, and in the end, NOTHING GETS DONE!!!!

****in ass holes. We've got the oil, we just can't use it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I don't and haven't for a long time, buy from them but a lot of oil is "pooled".


Itd be better if those ****ing enviro ******s in the Senate would actually let us get our own oil! ANWAR, the Gulf Coast, hell, I heard right in Colorado, Utah, Montana, Kansas, and a few other states we have more oil than Saudi!!!
Nope, not even a fraction of what they have.

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/931/oil8fl.png
http://tinyurl.com/bkjkc

[ZachKC]

won't happen. And I get the cheapest gas I find.

Itd be better if those ****ing enviro ******s in the Senate would actually let us get our own oil! ANWAR, the Gulf Coast, hell, I heard right in Colorado, Utah, Montana, Kansas, and a few other states we have more oil than Saudi!!! Yet those ****ers wont let us get it!!!!!! Not only that, but they also wont let us build a ****ing refinery!!! a-holes.

Then they bring these oil execs in and all those ****s do is grandstand and lecture them about their profits, and in the end, NOTHING GETS DONE!!!!

****in a-holes. We've got the oil, we just can't use it.
Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

[Ballhawk]

I am all for invading Canada, good beer and oil!

[maven]

Got this in a email:

"Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!"

eh, worth a try.

Whomever sent you the email is an idiot. Exxon & Mobil are the same company.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Whomever sent you the email is an idiot. Exxon & Mobil are the same company.
I believe he mentioned that.

[maven]

I believe he mentioned that.

I don't see it. Maybe you should wear your glasses.

[Taco John]

won't happen. And I get the cheapest gas I find.

Itd be better if those ****ing enviro ******s in the Senate would actually let us get our own oil! ANWAR, the Gulf Coast, hell, I heard right in Colorado, Utah, Montana, Kansas, and a few other states we have more oil than Saudi!!! Yet those ****ers wont let us get it!!!!!! Not only that, but they also wont let us build a ****ing refinery!!! a-holes.

Then they bring these oil execs in and all those ****s do is grandstand and lecture them about their profits, and in the end, NOTHING GETS DONE!!!!

****in a-holes. We've got the oil, we just can't use it.



Wow. You've been fed a load of bullocks. I don't have a problem myself with drilling in Alaska, given how little real impact it would have on the environment... But no way do I believe it's going to be the panacea that those who get red hot pissed off that congress isn't allowing it believe. And that jibberish about there being more oil under Utah, Montana, and Kansas? Where in the world are you getting your info?

If Alaska and Kansas had all of this oil, then why in the hell would we be sending our troops across the ocean in the most volitile part of the world to protect our interest in the oil supplies there? Because of the "****ing enviro ******s in the Senate?" The Senate and the House are both Republican owned and operated. They can do practically anthing they want so long as they can raise the political will to do it. Hell, they built a bridge to nowhere in Alaska, surely they could put some effort into solving all of our oil problems by drilling in Alaska... if drilling in Alaska is really a solution.

From my understanding, it would cost so much money to get the oil from the Arctic to US refineries that it would be cheaper to just sell it overseas and pocket the money, so I'm not sure that drilling in Alaska would help our oil problem too much.

[maven]

Wow. You've been fed a load of bullocks. I don't have a problem myself with drilling in Alaska, given how little real impact it would have on the environment... But no way do I believe it's going to be the panacea that those who get red hot pissed off that congress isn't allowing it believe. And that jibberish about there being more oil under Utah, Montana, and Kansas? Where in the world are you getting your info?

If Alaska and Kansas had all of this oil, then why in the hell would we be sending our troops across the ocean in the most volitile part of the world to protect our interest in the oil supplies there? Because of the "****ing enviro ******s in the Senate?" The Senate and the House are both Republican owned and operated. They can do practically anthing they want so long as they can raise the political will to do it. Hell, they built a bridge to nowhere in Alaska, surely they could put some effort into solving all of our oil problems by drilling in Alaska... if drilling in Alaska is really a solution.

From my understanding, it would cost so much money to get the oil from the Arctic to US refineries that it would be cheaper to just sell it overseas and pocket the money, so I'm not sure that drilling in Alaska would help our oil problem too much.

Agree. Drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife preserve is a complete joke. There is not enough oil there to affect oil futures. Simply, the oil drilled there & produced will have no effect on oil futures. I would like to see the Alaskan Wildlife preserve left alone.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

What the author does not understand is the sytems of commodities trading. All fuels are just routed into pipelines and withdrwn by the retailer that needs them. Therefore a gallon of gas purchased at an Exxon station could come from a Frontier refinery or a gallon of gas from Costco could come from an Exxon refinery. Once it leaves the refinery, fuel is a commodity, only to be rebranded by the retailer.

[maven]

What the author does not understand is the sytems of commodities trading. All fuels are just routed into pipelines and withdrwn by the retailer that needs them. Therefore a gallon of gas purchased at an Exxon station could come from a Frontier refinery or a gallon of gas from Costco could come from an Exxon refinery. Once it leaves the refinery, fuel is a commodity, only to be rebranded by the retailer.

Exactamondo.

For example in general terms, once the fuel leaves the refinery, you will see the same truck at a citgo, mobil-exxon, and Hess fuel stations.

[watermock]

1. Includes 174.5 billion barrels of oil sands reserves.
Source: Oil & Gas Journal, Vol. 102, No. 47 (Dec. 10, 2004). From: U.S. Energy Information Administration. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/petroleu.html .

Ummm....I said this yesterday? Terrance and Phillip aren't going to nuke us. They might fart and increase global warming, but they won't nuke us. At 70 dollars a barrel, it's feasable for sure.

We need to get this up and running fast.

[Orange_Beard]

How about drive less?
Car Pool?
Get a fuel-efficient car?
Ride the bus.....

Fuuck it, Bitch about the price and how the man is scewing us.

[maven]

1. Includes 174.5 billion barrels of oil sands reserves.
Source: Oil & Gas Journal, Vol. 102, No. 47 (Dec. 10, 2004). From: U.S. Energy Information Administration. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/petroleu.html .

Ummm....I said this yesterday? Terrance and Phillip aren't going to nuke us. They might fart and increase global warming, but they won't nuke us. At 70 dollars a barrel, it's feasable for sure.

We need to get this up and running fast.

I don't know what point you're trying to make with regards to your link. If you're referring to the Alaskan Wildlife refuge, there's not enough oil there to affect oil futures. Maybe I can take a trip there one day.

[Spider]

won't happen. And I get the cheapest gas I find.

Itd be better if those ****ing enviro ******s in the Senate would actually let us get our own oil! ANWAR, the Gulf Coast, hell, I heard right in Colorado, Utah, Montana, Kansas, and a few other states we have more oil than Saudi!!!
thats a load of Shít ........ as for Anwar , the only reason they havent drilled is the cost , they wouldnt make a profit on it , as for Colorado , Utah etc. thats Shale oil a big difference , and yes I do know this , I move oil rigs for a living ........now Wyoming is loaded in sweet crude ,in fact they want to exapnd the jonah field make it 3 times as big as it is now and it is huge ......


Yet those ****ers wont let us get it!!!!!! Not only that, but they also wont let us build a ****ing refinery!!! a-holes.
another half truth , no one said they couldnt build on exsisting sites or old sites ......
Then they bring these oil execs in and all those ****s do is grandstand and lecture them about their profits, and in the end, NOTHING GETS DONE!!!!

****in a-holes. We've got the oil, we just can't use it.
this part I agree nothing gets done , but it is the mergering that cost us $$$$

[watermock]

Agree. Drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife preserve is a complete joke. There is not enough oil there to affect oil futures. Simply, the oil drilled there & produced will have no effect on oil futures. I would like to see the Alaskan Wildlife preserve left alone. Maybe I can take a trip there one day.

That's bullshiat. It will take a decade to even start getting oil there, and the reserves will prove far beyond the current estimates. all that is needed is a small spur to the pipeline. The problem was a drunk captain passed out in a sincle hulled supertanker. Guess who? Exxon/Mobile. And that wasn't in the north slope, it was in Valdez.

Ever wonder why France could give a shiat? It's because they have 94 nuclear plants in a country the size of texas.

[Tombstone RJ]

What the author does not understand is the sytems of commodities trading. All fuels are just routed into pipelines and withdrwn by the retailer that needs them. Therefore a gallon of gas purchased at an Exxon station could come from a Frontier refinery or a gallon of gas from Costco could come from an Exxon refinery. Once it leaves the refinery, fuel is a commodity, only to be rebranded by the retailer.

Yep. Its all about the refineries. We don't have enough, and all the gas stations, no matter who owns them, get their gas from the same refineries.

[Tombstone RJ]

How about drive less?
Car Pool?
Get a fuel-efficient car?
Ride the bus.....

Fuuck it, b**** about the price and how the man is scewing us.

Yep. How about car pooling! It'd be nice to see at least two people in a car, instead of one car, one person.

But, that'll never happen. Its just easier to bitch about the gas prices...

[maven]

That's bullshiat. It will take a decade to even start getting oil there, and the reserves will prove far beyond the current estimates. all that is needed is a small spur to the pipeline. The problem was a drunk captain passed out in a sincle hulled supertanker. Guess who? Exxon/Mobile. And that wasn't in the north slope, it was in Valdez.

Ever wonder why France could give a shiat? It's because they have 94 nuclear plants in a country the size of texas.

Bullsh!t? Yes it will take years to get the pipelines, drilling, infrastructure, transportation to get the oil out. I dunno what Exxon Valdez has to do with this.

My sole point is the Alaskan Wildlife refuge will not produce enough oil to affect oil futures. Drilling there is useless. I will say it again Mock. Drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife refuge will not affect oil futures.

[Spider]

Bullsh!t? Yes it will take years to get the pipelines, drilling, infrastructure, transportation to get the oil out. I dunno what Exxon Valdez has to do with this.

My sole point is the Alaskan Wildlife refuge will not produce enough oil to affect oil futures. Drilling there is useless. I will say it again Mock. Drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife refuge will not affect oil futures.
LOL anwar ........... if you only knew how much was down here ............ Anwar is a wedge issue , you want ot see an oil field ? look at Wamsutter , or Jonah field , or the Mesa in Wyoming ................

[DarkHorse30]

for all the crying about oil prices....let's not forget that American companies were bumbling along at $20 per barrel a few short years ago....for quite a stretch.

Americans refuse to drill off the pacific coast....because apparently it wrecks the view....and complain about gas prices....brilliant. Meanwhile Cuba and Mexico are going after the gulf of Mexico to find oil...Apparently southern states aren't as picky about their view.....or maybe as long as it isn't American companies spoiling the view it's just a peach.:sunshine:

If Congress would back off of their surtaxes on gas and other commodities (like your cellphone/long distance service) Americans would be buying gas for a buck fifty...and paying around $50 max per month for their phone service.

[Spider]

Bull ......... $50.00 max for a phone bill .......... Not those that travel ........

[maven]

That's bullshiat. It will take a decade to even start getting oil there, and the reserves will prove far beyond the current estimates. all that is needed is a small spur to the pipeline. The problem was a drunk captain passed out in a sincle hulled supertanker. Guess who? Exxon/Mobile. And that wasn't in the north slope, it was in Valdez.

Ever wonder why France could give a shiat? It's because they have 94 nuclear plants in a country the size of texas.

I fully agree the USA should build more nuke plants. But, that is a separate topic.

[maven]

for all the crying about oil prices....let's not forget that American companies were bumbling along at $20 per barrel a few short years ago....for quite a stretch.

Americans refuse to drill off the pacific coast....because apparently it wrecks the view....and complain about gas prices....brilliant. Meanwhile Cuba and Mexico are going after the gulf of Mexico to find oil...Apparently southern states aren't as picky about their view.....or maybe as long as it isn't American companies spoiling the view it's just a peach.:sunshine:

If Congress would back off of their surtaxes on gas and other commodities (like your cellphone/long distance service) Americans would be buying gas for a buck fifty...and paying around $50 max per month for their phone service.

Plenty of American companies are drilling in the gulf coast. You could say, FL as of now, will not allow ANY drilling off of their coasts. Thank you Jeb Bush.

[Spider]

Plenty of American companies are drilling in the gulf coast. You could say, FL as of now, will not allow ANY drilling off of their coasts. Thank you Jeb Bush.
shhhhhhhhhhhh dont be bringing facts into this , we are dealing with hysteria and rumor here ..............

[maven]

shhhhhhhhhhhh dont be bringing facts into this , we are dealing with hysteria and rumor here ..............

LOL

Actually I hate Jeb bush. But, I will commend him for not allowing drilling off of Florida's coasts.

[Spider]

LOL

Actually I hate Jeb Bush. But, I will commend him for not allowing drilling off of Florida's coasts.
well just as long as you play by the rules and no more facts .......just hysteria ;D

[DarkHorse30]

Plenty of American companies are drilling in the gulf coast. You could say, FL as of now, will not allow ANY drilling off of their coasts. Thank you Jeb Bush.

I'd rather we drill off the pacific coast....no 'canes to worry about...just whiny californicators......

[watermock]

Bullsh!t? Yes it will take years to get the pipelines, drilling, infrastructure, transportation to get the oil out. I dunno what Exxon Valdez has to do with this.

My sole point is the Alaskan Wildlife refuge will not produce enough oil to affect oil futures. Drilling there is useless. I will say it again Mock. Drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife refuge will not affect oil futures.

Bullshiat....the pipeline is allready there, it's just a spur, and they can diagonally drill anyway. Your just making assumptions. One site will produce as much as we import from Saudi Arabia, and I have a feeling it will be more considering the price. It's like a 100 mile spur and could be done on a single site.

Where did I say it would affect prices dimwit. My point is every penny not given to OPEC is a penny in our pocket. You think I want to destroy some place critically frigid and coat it in oil? Not going to happen. What about Saddam setting off 100 oil wells? Fact is there is alot of oil up there.

Acting like drilling would kill the Alaskan wilderness is absurd. Believe it or not, Caribou love the pipeline and go to it for warmth. Get off your green barstool, Caribou have increased with that pipeline.

[Spider]

Just to be clear it isnt the drillers causing this ........... most drillers Bítch and moan just like us . Ha! I got it , tell them to ride Bikes to work Hilarious! ........ better not , those boys play rough

[Spider]

you cant blame Mock for wanting to drill Alaska , out of all the people here , he is the only one that uses more fuel then me , and like me he does it to help his fellow man , and like Me the prices are realy cutting into the bottom line .......what me and Mock spend in a week on fuel , you guys would take close to 6 months to a year to catch us ...

[maven]

Bullshiat....the pipeline is allready there, it's just a spur, and they can diagonally drill anyway. Your just making assumptions. One site will produce as much as we import from Saudi Arabia, and I have a feeling it will be more considering the price. It's like a 100 mile spur and could be done on a single site.

Where did I say it would affect prices dimwit. My point is every penny not given to OPEC is a penny in our pocket. You think I want to destroy some place critically frigid and coat it in oil? Not going to happen. What about Saddam setting off 100 oil wells? Fact is there is alot of oil up there.

Acting like drilling would kill the Alaskan wilderness is absurd. Believe it or not, Caribou love the pipeline and go to it for warmth. Get off your green barstool, Caribou have increased with that pipeline.

I don't know how to reach your logic Mock. I'm not calling you an idiot. My point is the Alaskan Wildlife refuge can produce only so many barrels a day & the amount the Alaskan Refuge could provide is not enough to change the oil futures. It has nothing to do with carabou, wolves, valdez, etc. There's just not enough oil there to change the oil futures market.

On a side note, I still haven't received the question I'm hoping to answer.

[watermock]

It wasn't drilling in Alaska that made the oil spill, it was the promise of double hulls Exxon failed to carry on with and a drunen captain literally asleep at the whee. The spill wasn't at the drilling site at all. What happened is that the govt. didn't make Exxon make double hulls which they promised to do.

[watermock]

I don't know how to reach your logic Mock. I'm not calling you an idiot. My point is the Alaskan Wildlife refuge can produce only so many barrels a day & the amount the Alaskan Refuge could provide is not enough to change the oil futures. It has nothing to do with carabou, wolves, valdez, etc. There's just not enough oil there to change the oil futures market.

On a side note, I still haven't received the question I'm hoping to answer.

You have to be intelligent enough to reach it. I don't care if it changes oil futures, a penny ours is a penny kept. If it isn't about caribou ect, then what's the problem? Valdez is at the end of the pipeline.

Here is a FACT. The oil pipeline is now running UNDER CAPACITY from Alaska. It will be a short spur to the other field, and while estimates have been written, the true volume is unknown. You can do all the studies you care to, but till you drill, you don't know how much is there. I never mentioned price one time. Demand will dictate price, peirod.

[Jason in LA]

How about drive less?
Car Pool?
Get a fuel-efficient car?
Ride the bus.....

Fuuck it, b**** about the price and how the man is scewing us.

The last one is the only good option.

Car pool? That means I have to pick people up, and drop them off.

Fuel-effiecient car? Have you seen what those things look like? No thanks. I like my Mustang GT.

Ride the bus? I don't mind riding it, but I hate waiting half an hour for it.

So I'll just have to bitch about it.

[Jason in LA]

Got this in a email:

"Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!"

eh, worth a try.

This has been tried many times. I'm pretty sure everybody in the country have seen this email in one form or another. It just doesn't work.

[maven]

you cant blame Mock for wanting to drill Alaska , out of all the people here , he is the only one that uses more fuel then me , and like me he does it to help his fellow man , and like Me the prices are realy cutting into the bottom line .......what me and Mock spend in a week on fuel , you guys would take close to 6 months to a year to catch us ...


I will not blame mock & I will not blame you.... But, the fact of the matter is drilling in Alaska is not going to change what you pay at the pump. To think drilling in Alaska is going to affect prices in oil is completely ludicrous. It sucks you have to pay high er energy prices, but drilling in Alaska is NOT the solution to lower prices. I hate to say it, but get use to the prices & paying more at the pump.

[Jason in LA]

What the author does not understand is the sytems of commodities trading. All fuels are just routed into pipelines and withdrwn by the retailer that needs them. Therefore a gallon of gas purchased at an Exxon station could come from a Frontier refinery or a gallon of gas from Costco could come from an Exxon refinery. Once it leaves the refinery, fuel is a commodity, only to be rebranded by the retailer.

I over heard a guy say this. He said all the local gas stations get their gas from the same place. Let me get this right. The gas from a Shell station, or some other big name station, is the same gas that I'd get from that non-name brand gas station? You know, that gas station called El Cheapo in a Hurry gas station, or some other cheesy name they call those gas stations. I always thought those non-name brand gas stations had bad gas or something. (bad gas ;D)

[ColoradoDarin]

you cant blame Mock for wanting to drill Alaska , out of all the people here , he is the only one that uses more fuel then me , and like me he does it to help his fellow man , and like Me the prices are realy cutting into the bottom line .......what me and Mock spend in a week on fuel , you guys would take close to 6 months to a year to catch us ...


Probably 6 years worth compared to me. I think I put 3,000 miles on my F-150 last year (I work from home), you probably do that in a week.

[watermock]

I have always talked about solutions, not problems.

[listopencil]

What the author does not understand is the sytems of commodities trading. All fuels are just routed into pipelines and withdrwn by the retailer that needs them. Therefore a gallon of gas purchased at an Exxon station could come from a Frontier refinery or a gallon of gas from Costco could come from an Exxon refinery. Once it leaves the refinery, fuel is a commodity, only to be rebranded by the retailer.

I was trying to formulate basically the same response until I read yours. I couldn't agree more.

[GreatBronco16]

Whomever sent you the email is an idiot. Exxon & Mobil are the same company.

I believe he mentioned that.

I don't see it. Maybe you should wear your glasses.


From the first post.

DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL.

Just incase you still haven't found it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What the author does not understand is the sytems of commodities trading. All fuels are just routed into pipelines and withdrwn by the retailer that needs them. Therefore a gallon of gas purchased at an Exxon station could come from a Frontier refinery or a gallon of gas from Costco could come from an Exxon refinery. Once it leaves the refinery, fuel is a commodity, only to be rebranded by the retailer.

This isn't completely accurate. Some companies refine and use their own oil at their stations, some don't.


Acting like drilling would kill the Alaskan wilderness is absurd. Believe it or not, Caribou love the pipeline and go to it for warmth. Get off your green barstool, Caribou have increased with that pipeline.
LOL Geeeezus!

The Alaska pipeline has reached the end of it's lifespan and is becoming an enviromental hazard.

Nuclear power isn't the answer, no one wants nuclear waste in their backyards and it never goes away. I think the Nevada Gov threatened to stop any shipments of nuclear waste at the state border.

[Spider]

I will not blame mock & I will not blame you.... But, the fact of the matter is drilling in Alaska is not going to change what you pay at the pump. To think drilling in Alaska is going to affect prices in oil is completely ludicrous. It sucks you have to pay high er energy prices, but drilling in Alaska is NOT the solution to lower prices. I hate to say it, but get use to the prices & paying more at the pump.
you are right ....but drilling the red desert in Wyoming would .........I realy dont want drilling in Alaska , not when you got 100's of miles of nothing ness right here where shipping and refining would be alot easier ......

[OrangeShadow]

Supply and demand people,supply and demand

Besides if you really are that irate over the price of gas dont just sit and complain, do something. Carpool walk to close places things like that. People are just making excuses when really its partly their own fault.

[watermock]

I never mentioned price once did I? It's much more expensive to recover alaskan oil or Canadian sand tar oil than to pump it out at 5 bucks a barrel in saudi arabia. But it's not our oil.

Why has the alaska pipeline reached the end of it's lifespan? That's total BS and an assertion.

Nuclear waste? If the greenies would wake up and let the salt caves open that problem would be gone for millions of years. The hazards are in the back yard. The sooner we get waste centrally located in Nevada the better. You don't have a clue.

The pipeline is such a hazard to caribou that they hang out by it and their numbers have doubled. The fact is it's not running at full capacity and it would only take a small spur to extend it to a new field. So if it's supposedly obsolete, you build one parallel. No big deal honestly, it would be relatively easy, the road is allready there.

I would like a new pipeline that goes thru the sand tars that would eliminate the need to ship, which is the biggest danger. Run a continuous pipe thru the sand tars all the way to the 48 states. It's simple honestly.

[Spider]

Probably 6 years worth compared to me. I think I put 3,000 miles on my F-150 last year (I work from home), you probably do that in a week.
;D damn good truck .......

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I never mentioned price once did I? It's much more expensive to recover alaskan oil or Canadian sand tar oil than to pump it out at 5 bucks a barrel in saudi arabia. But it's not our oil.

Why has the alaska pipeline reached the end of it's lifespan? That's total BS and an assertion.

Nuclear waste? If the greenies would wake up and let the salt caves open that problem would be gone for millions of years. The hazards are in the back yard. The sooner we get waste centrally located in Nevada the better. You don't have a clue.

The pipeline is such a hazard to caribou that they hang out by it and their numbers have doubled.

:rofl: LOL

The life-saving Caribou pipeline!!!
The 800 mile long pipeline was designed to last 30 years and is corroding away. It'll take billions of dollars to maintain from here on out.

[watermock]

Baloney. Go ahead and deny that Caribou numbers have doubled. Show me that it's corroding away! Show me the billions to maintain it! Your talking out of your ass.

I never said it was some caribou savior, I said their numbers have gone up, and they seem to like to hang around it.

[watermock]

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:K1caXvJHIt8J:www.alyeska-pipe.com/InTheNews/MonthlyNews/2004/March/Mar2004.pdf+alaska+pipeline+maintenance+costs&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

I see 250 million in the first major maintainance since it was built dumbass...and it will lower costs 10% per year.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Baloney. Go ahead and deny that Caribou numbers have doubled. Show me that it's corroding away! Show me the billions to maintain it! Your talking out of your ass.

I never said it was some caribou savior, I said their numbers have gone up, and they seem to like to hang around it.

We (Boilermakers) helped construct it Einstein so I know a little something about it..


The pipeline is corroding. There are 78,000 vertical pilings supporting the line that also need to be maintained. Environmental groups and some current and former pipeline workers stressed that the pipeline's relatively good safety record may not be sustained for long. "With proper maintenance, yes, the pipeline could last forever," said Alaska Forum for Environmental Responsibility Executive Director Ross Coen, adding, "But are they really willing to spend billions of dollars for maintenance when there may not be all that much oil left to send down the pipeline? (CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/jysnr


SUMMARY AND ANALYSIS OF RESULTS
Corrosion Control and Prevention

The corrosion-related cost to the transmission pipeline industry is approximately $5.4 to $8.6 billion annually.
This can be divided into the cost of failures, capital, and operations and maintenance (O&M) at 10, 38, and 52 percent, respectively. Although data management, system quantification through the use of global positioning surveys, remote monitoring, and electronic equipment developments have provided significant improvement in
several areas of pipeline corrosion maintenance, there have been few basic changes in the approach to the management of corrosion on pipelines until recently.

These changes have been in the development of risk
assessment strategies and pipeline integrity management programs.

In the past few years, a number of high-profile pipeline failures (both liquid and natural gas) have refocused concern on pipeline safety. Public safety concerns have provided the driving force for new regulations governing pipeline operations. The most significant of these, from a cost point of view, is the requirement for pipeline
inspections. In-line inspection (i.e., “smart pigging”) is the one most often discussed.

The ability of this technique
to find corrosion flaws larger than a certain size (10 percent of pipe wall thickness) makes it extremely valuable for locating flaws before they become critical and cause pipeline failure (either leaks or rupture). The major concern is that a “find it and fix it” mentality is pursued at the expense of corrosion prevention strategies. Both approaches are required to optimize the cost benefit of corrosion management programs. Operators may be tempted to adopt a “find
it and fix it” attitude due to the significant cost of pipeline inspection, which is estimated to be as high as $35 billion over the next 5 to 7 years.

If operators cut conventional corrosion O&M costs while pursuing pipeline inspection, corrosion prevention will suffer. Without a best practices corrosion prevention strategy, corrosion will continue and
the cost of repairing a deteriorating pipeline will continue to escalate. Thus, a “find it and fix it” strategy utilizing in-line inspection at the expense of corrosion prevention may save money in the short term, but will greatly increase capital expenditures for pipeline replacement and major rehabilitation in the long-term. (CONTINUED)
http://www.corrosioncost.com/pdf/gasliquid.pdf

[watermock]

"we" is not you.

The corrosion-related cost to the transmission pipeline industry is approximately $5.4 to $8.6 billion annually.


That's the entire industry their genius. Of course it costs money to maintain it. Did I say it didn't? You just want to junk it to fit your agenda. Go to the circle jerk room. Have a boilermaker on me.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

"we" is not you.
That's the entire industry their genius. Of course it costs money to maintain it. Did I say it didn't? You just want to junk it to fit your agenda. Go to the circle jerk room. Have a boilermaker on me.

Show me the billions to maintain it! Your talking out of your ass.


What a tool! I said it would cost billions now to maintain it and you said it wouldn't.

Did you have another late night on the rooftop with cat?

----------------------------------------------
Burst Oil Pipeline Causes "Catastrophe" in Alaska
By Andrew Gumbel
The Independent UK
Tuesday 14 March 2006

A burst pipeline in Alaska's North Slope has caused the Arctic region's worst oil spill, spreading more than 250,000 gallons of crude oil over an area used by caribou herds and prompting environmentalists again to question the Bush administration's drive for more oil exploration there.

The leak was first spotted by a British Petroleum worker 11 days ago, and was reported to have been plugged a few days later. Initial hopes expressed by BP that the spill was limited to a few tens of thousands of gallons proved to be over-optimistic. Alaska's Department of Environmental Conservation has steadily increased its estimate of the size of the spill, the latest estimate putting it at around 265,000 gallons.
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/e937y

[Raider Bill]

A boycott of a couple of brands of gasoline won't result in lower overall prices. Prices at all the non-boycotted outlets would rise due to the temporarily limited supply and increased demand, making the original prices look cheap by comparison. The shunned outlets could then make a killing by offering gasoline at its "normal" (i.e., pre-boycott) price or by selling off their output to the non-boycotted companies, who will need the extra supply to meet demand. The only person who really gets hurt in this proposed scheme is the service station operator, who has almost no control over the price of gasoline.

[Tredici]

What the author does not understand is the sytems of commodities trading. All fuels are just routed into pipelines and withdrwn by the retailer that needs them. Therefore a gallon of gas purchased at an Exxon station could come from a Frontier refinery or a gallon of gas from Costco could come from an Exxon refinery. Once it leaves the refinery, fuel is a commodity, only to be rebranded by the retailer.

This is one of the few posts on the thread with some reality. Refined products are all produced according to mandated standards. What makes the difference in the branding is the additives. That's how you get "detergents" in Mobil gas. "Techron" in Chevron gas. "System 3" in the old Texaco brand. You essentially pay for chemically enhanced upgrades.

As for the gasoline at the U Pump 'Em? Their tanker pulled up to the same rack the above mentioned companies did.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

A boycott of a couple of brands of gasoline won't result in lower overall prices.
Yeah, the only way to bring down gas prices (from the user side) is use less of it. But like I said, if we were to give the subsidies this congress and Bush just gave big oil (14 billion) to alternative and renewable energy research and development, we would move a lot faster to getting away from our dependency on oil.

[Raider Bill]

When I worked at an unbranded gasoline retailer, we just bought whatever was cheapest at the time. This week it could be Shell, next week Exxon, whatever. Boycotting at the station level is only hurting the little guy (unless it's a corporately owned station) and even then they'll just sell the gasoline at the wholesale level to other stations.

[jayman_37]

Is it true that we have the technology to make Hydrogen cars and also have hydrogen fill up stations. I hears somewhere that cars could be transferred to hydrogen running engines for a price. The price I don't know. This could be far off-base does anyone know anything about this?

[ZachKC]

I must say Mock looks even more foolish on this thread than his usual day to day foolishness.

[watermock]

Is it true that we have the technology to make Hydrogen cars and also have hydrogen fill up stations. I hears somewhere that cars could be transferred to hydrogen running engines for a price. The price I don't know. This could be far off-base does anyone know anything about this?

Do you know of any hydrogen derricks? There is plenty of hydrogen, the problem is it's atomically locked to oxygen in the form of water. Hydrogen is a joke without nuclear plants, and then you might as well use it more efficiently as electricity.

[Rock Chalk]

for all the crying about oil prices....let's not forget that American companies were bumbling along at $20 per barrel a few short years ago....for quite a stretch.

Americans refuse to drill off the pacific coast....because apparently it wrecks the view....and complain about gas prices....brilliant. Meanwhile Cuba and Mexico are going after the gulf of Mexico to find oil...Apparently southern states aren't as picky about their view.....or maybe as long as it isn't American companies spoiling the view it's just a peach.:sunshine:

If Congress would back off of their surtaxes on gas and other commodities (like your cellphone/long distance service) Americans would be buying gas for a buck fifty...and paying around $50 max per month for their phone service.
That's a big part of it.

Californians, Oregonians and Washintonians refuse to let anyone drill off the coast (at least, anyone else) yet there ARE sizable reserves economically obtainable there.

As for the gulf, its littered with oil platforms, most of which just beyond the horizon so it doesnt "mess up the view" which could be done on the pacific coast too.

Every time someone says we have no oil, I just want to laugh. Keep believing the "media" about our oil reserves. Thats what they want you to believe. Beerslug will show you figures and facts and charts but none of it is true. Not the Saudi figures, not anyone's.

[watermock]

I must say Mock looks even more foolish on this thread than his usual day to day foolishness.

When did I discount that spill whatsoever? Your an idiot. The spill is two football fields big and is being adressed. Where did I say that the pipeline shouldn't be properly maintained? What I did do was post what they were planning to spend on it, 250M for this year. The firgure of 6 Billion or whatever was thrown out was for the entire industry. That's off my rocking chair logic? Finally, WTF are you even in a Bronco forum you leech? I deal with these morons constantly that only see problems when I see solutions. What works better?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Every time someone says we have no oil, I just want to laugh. Keep believing the "media" about our oil reserves. Thats what they want you to believe. Beerslug will show you figures and facts and charts but none of it is true. Not the Saudi figures, not anyone's.
OK, post your "true" numbers so we can all be let in on the great cover up conspiracy. Uhh

[GonzoLays]

Whomever sent you the email is an idiot. Exxon & Mobil are the same company.

Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!"

Maybe you are an idiot? The answer to your question is in bold.

[GonzoLays]

I don't see it. Maybe you should wear your glasses.

For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL.

Looks like it is time to schedule that appointment with the optometrist.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What works better?

Getting drunk and chasing the cat around the house at 3 in the morning?

[RaiderH8r]

I don't and haven't for a long time, buy from them but a lot of oil is "pooled".


Nope, not even a fraction of what they have.

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/931/oil8fl.png
http://tinyurl.com/bkjkc
Do those numbers reflect proved developed AND proved undeveloped?

[Peepers]

Got this in a email:

"Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!"

eh, worth a try.


Whoever emailed this to you knows nothing about economics.

[RaiderH8r]

Is it true that we have the technology to make Hydrogen cars and also have hydrogen fill up stations. I hears somewhere that cars could be transferred to hydrogen running engines for a price. The price I don't know. This could be far off-base does anyone know anything about this?
Natural gas is essential in the current context of unlocking hydrogen for use in the fashion for which you propose. This country made a push some years back for natural gas fired electricity and automobiles. Natural gas was cheap, but as some consumers will surely testify, that price is continuing to trend upward and quickly. Many layers to the energy onion.

[GonzoLays]

Whoever emailed this to you knows nothing about economics.

Now that I don't doubt.


Since you obviously understand economics explain why this won't work.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Do those numbers reflect proved developed AND proved undeveloped?

Apparently so.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/contents.html

Here's a good read from SPE...

How Much Oil and Natural Gas is Left?
Oil and natural gas exist in the pore spaces of rock in the subsurface of the earth. How much oil or gas can be recovered from the rock is a function of rock properties, technology, and economics. Even when it is technically feasible to remove oil or gas from a specific reservoir, the costs involved in doing so may exceed the value of the oil or gas recovered at projected prices. In this case, the oil or gas is uneconomic and will not be developed.

The total amount of oil or gas in the reservoir is called original oil- or gas-in-place. For a specific reservoir, engineers estimate this amount with information about the size of the reservoir trap and properties of the rock (which can be sampled and tested). Some of the original oil and gas deposited millions of years ago has been discovered, while some remains undiscovered (the target of future exploration).

Discovered (or known) resources can be divided into proved reserves and prospective or unproved (probable and possible) resources. "Proved reserves" are the quantities of oil or gas from known reservoirs and expected to be recoverable with current technology and at current economic conditions. Prospective resources are those that may be recoverable in the future with advanced technologies or under different economic conditions. More explanation of reserves and resources definitions.
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/o3sdu

Reserves will also grow as more oil and gas deposits are found around the world. Continental North America and much of continental Europe have already been explored heavily, and any new discoveries are likely to be small.

[RaiderH8r]

Apparently so.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/contents.html

Here's a good read from SPE...

How Much Oil and Natural Gas is Left?
Oil and natural gas exist in the pore spaces of rock in the subsurface of the earth. How much oil or gas can be recovered from the rock is a function of rock properties, technology, and economics. Even when it is technically feasible to remove oil or gas from a specific reservoir, the costs involved in doing so may exceed the value of the oil or gas recovered at projected prices. In this case, the oil or gas is uneconomic and will not be developed.

The total amount of oil or gas in the reservoir is called original oil- or gas-in-place. For a specific reservoir, engineers estimate this amount with information about the size of the reservoir trap and properties of the rock (which can be sampled and tested). Some of the original oil and gas deposited millions of years ago has been discovered, while some remains undiscovered (the target of future exploration).

Discovered (or known) resources can be divided into proved reserves and prospective or unproved (probable and possible) resources. "Proved reserves" are the quantities of oil or gas from known reservoirs and expected to be recoverable with current technology and at current economic conditions. Prospective resources are those that may be recoverable in the future with advanced technologies or under different economic conditions. More explanation of reserves and resources definitions.
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/o3sdu
Your link makes no mention of proved developed v. proved undeveloped data inclusion.

Regardless, offshore reserves are not included or grossly under represented due to the moratoria in place. Exploration on the OCS hasn't been done in a number of years and the data set is outdated. Additionally, because the moratoria is in place, even the proved reserves from 20 years ago are not included in the US data because it is not recoverable due to the moratoria.

Regarding onshore domestic E&P, the US is making finds of traditional crude in areas previously thought devoid or too little to produce. Canadian Tar sands and oil shale could eclipse Saudi reserves if produced. Canada is already moving ahead, the US is woefully behind.

The Wall Street Journal, among others, recently reported (April 5) on an oil play in the Williston basin of Eastern MT, and Western ND noting that the Bakken play holds tremendous domestic production potential. It's a long article, but to note:

Some oil folks think there's even more around here. Drillers are finding evidence of a similarly sized field in western North Dakota. Geologists say both fields are part of a 200,000-square-mile formation known as the "Bakken," which lies under parts of Montana, the Dakotas and Canada. No one yet knows how much oil can be extracted from it, but some estimates are sky-high. One federal geochemist who analyzed the formation estimated it contains 400 billion barrels of oil, while a North Dakota state geologist said 200 billion. If even the lower estimate is true, and if 10% can be recovered -- a conservative rule of thumb used by geologists -- the Bakken could eclipse Alaska's Prudhoe Bay as the largest recent U.S. oil find.

It requires username and password, but if you would like the full article I would be happy to post it.

Prudhoe bay has been very productive and a stable supply for consumers for over a decade, the Bakken could eclipse that.

[Mile High Shack]

I think that email has been going around since 2002

[GonzoLays]

I think that email has been going around since 2002

Well you thought wrong. What's new?

Here is the rest of the email...

By now you're probably thinking gasoline priced at about $1.50 is super cheap. Me too! It is currently $2.79 for regular unleaded in my town. Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a gallon of gas is CHEAP at $1.50 - $1.75, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace..not sellers. With the price of gasoline going up more each day, we consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of gas come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their gas! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. How?

[Mile High Shack]

Well you thought wrong. What's new?

Here is the rest of the email...

By now you're probably thinking gasoline priced at about $1.50 is super cheap. Me too! It is currently $2.79 for regular unleaded in my town. Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a gallon of gas is CHEAP at $1.50 - $1.75, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace..not sellers. With the price of gasoline going up more each day, we consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of gas come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their gas! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. How?

modified obviously numbnuts

but the basic version has been making rounds since 2002

hence why they got the exxon/mobil thing wrong, since at the time it was written, they were seperate companies

don't worry about it, you can't help that you are a moron

[GonzoLays]

hence why they got the exxon/mobil thing wrong, since at the time it was written, they were seperate companies

don't worry about it, you can't help that you are a moron

For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL.

See bold.

The email states they are the same company. I'll draw a picture for you next time if that helps.

[Mile High Shack]

See bold.

The email states they are the same company. I'll draw a picture for you next time if that helps.

which again points out the fact it has been modified over the years

SAME BASIC EMAIL

seriously, the educational system in our country is in serious disrepair and you are prime evidence #1 of this.

[GonzoLays]

Whomever sent you the email is an idiot. Exxon & Mobil are the same company.

hence why they got the exxon/mobil thing wrong, since at the time it was written, they were seperate companies

For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL.

seriously, the educational system in our country is in serious disrepair

I couldn't agree more.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Your link makes no mention of proved developed v. proved undeveloped data inclusion.

Regardless, offshore reserves are not included or grossly under represented due to the moratoria in place. Exploration on the OCS hasn't been done in a number of years and the data set is outdated. Additionally, because the moratoria is in place, even the proved reserves from 20 years ago are not included in the US data because it is not recoverable due to the moratoria.

Regarding onshore domestic E&P, the US is making finds of traditional crude in areas previously thought devoid or too little to produce. Canadian Tar sands and oil shale could eclipse Saudi reserves if produced. Canada is already moving ahead, the US is woefully behind.

The Wall Street Journal, among others, recently reported (April 5) on an oil play in the Williston basin of Eastern MT, and Western ND noting that the Bakken play holds tremendous domestic production potential. It's a long article, but to note:

Some oil folks think there's even more around here. Drillers are finding evidence of a similarly sized field in western North Dakota. Geologists say both fields are part of a 200,000-square-mile formation known as the "Bakken," which lies under parts of Montana, the Dakotas and Canada. No one yet knows how much oil can be extracted from it, but some estimates are sky-high. One federal geochemist who analyzed the formation estimated it contains 400 billion barrels of oil, while a North Dakota state geologist said 200 billion. If even the lower estimate is true, and if 10% can be recovered -- a conservative rule of thumb used by geologists -- the Bakken could eclipse Alaska's Prudhoe Bay as the largest recent U.S. oil find.

It requires username and password, but if you would like the full article I would be happy to post it.

Prudhoe bay has been very productive and a stable supply for consumers for over a decade, the Bakken could eclipse that.

Yeah, post that article or a link to it if you would.

I can guarantee you if we have recoverable oil (inland) the oil companies would make it their #1 priority. You'll find that most of them consider offshore oil the cheapest and easiest to recover. The Tar Sands in Canada are incredibly expensive to recover oil from and more expensive to refine.
But all the oil recovery talk is regression not progress. If we put even half the effort into renewable and alternative energy as we do into oil recovery we would ween ourselves from the ME cluterf**k in years not decades.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

This has been tried many times. I'm pretty sure everybody in the country have seen this email in one form or another. It just doesn't work.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/gasout.asp

[anthonypacino]

Well you thought wrong. What's new?

Here is the rest of the email...

By now you're probably thinking gasoline priced at about $1.50 is super cheap. Me too! It is currently $2.79 for regular unleaded in my town. Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a gallon of gas is CHEAP at $1.50 - $1.75, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace..not sellers. With the price of gasoline going up more each day, we consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of gas come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their gas! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. How?
I don't know if we can, urban sprawl has moved workers out of the downtown areas so most commute to work 20 miles round trip or more every day. Some cities have great public transportation some don't even then it's a hassle.

[RaiderH8r]

Yeah, post that article or a link to it if you would.

I can guarantee you if we have recoverable oil (inland) the oil companies would make it their #1 priority. You'll find that most of them consider offshore oil the cheapest and easiest to recover. The Tar Sands in Canada are incredibly expensive to recover oil from and more expensive to refine.
But all the oil recovery talk is regression not progress. If we put even half the effort into renewable and alternative energy as we do into oil recovery we would ween ourselves from the ME cluter**** in years not decades.
I'll post the article separate from this post.

We have a multitude of recoverable oil onshore in the US, but it's pockets here and there. Drill tech. and horizontal drilling tech. have resulted in fewer well heads and we're getting more production per wellhead than ever before. The holes don't go dry, there just comes a point where cost outweighs profits and they pull off the sight. Independents can drill those because they tend to have lower costs and are willing to accept the tighter margins. At >$60/bl, expensive or not, tar sands, oil shale, and other technologically difficult formations profitable and more likely to be developed.

Frankly, and you and I seem to have no common ground here but that just happens from time to time...it's cool, it's America, I don't see where wind mills, compost, solar, are efficient enough to compete on the large scale that fossil fuels serve. Sure, they can be used to augment existing energy sources but as a whole sale implementation it is just not feasable. Take wind farms for example. The most productive windmill produces at 5KWH, whereas a coal fired plant produces >280KWH. Hydrogen requires a considerable amount of natural gas to produce. Plastics, benzine dependent products (such as asperin and other pharmaceuticals) come from crude. I don't have a problem or much care if people choose to augment their existing supplies in this fashion. However, to suggest that they will serve as a whole sale substitute, I believe, has no basis in a realistic discussion of immediate energy sustainability. Once a viable, and efficient source comes along, it will be supported and I'll be happy to do so.

[RaiderH8r]

Second Look
Wildcat Producer
Sparks Oil Boom
On Montana Plains
After Majors Pulled Out,
Mr. Findley Drilled Anew;
Size of Find Still Unclear
A Rival Counts Tanker Trucks
By JOHN J. FIALKA
April 5, 2006; Page A1


SIDNEY, Mont. -- In the mid-1990s, major oil-exploration companies like Royal Dutch Shell (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=rdsa) PLC, Gulf Oil Co. and Texaco Co. were shutting down operations here on the remote high plains, abandoning hundreds of nonproducing wells and letting their leases to mineral rights lapse.
Federal and state agencies tracking exploration also considered the region a bust. "I thought my job was going to be turning out the lights," says Jim Halvorson, geologist for Montana's Board of Oil and Gas Conservation. In 2000, his office predicted oil production would rapidly decline toward zero.
But Richard L. Findley, a graying geologist and "wildcat" producer, thought they were all wrong. He bought up leases on the cheap and helped spark a surprising boom in one of the most heavily explored oil regions in the country.
Mr. Findley discovered a new field that is now producing 48,000 barrels a day of high-quality crude oil from more than 300 wells. While oil companies have discovered bigger fields in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico, this sizeable find is now the highest-producing onshore field found in the lower 48 states in the past 56 years, according to the U.S. Energy Department.
The high price of oil, coupled with the call to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil, has sparked debate among policy makers, executives and entrepreneurs about just how much untapped oil is still out there in the continental U.S., where it is, and how to get it. Hurricane damage last summer to vast U.S. oil operations in the Gulf of Mexico heightened interest in onshore fields.
For several years now, major oil companies have taken the approach that there are no more large fields left to find under American soil. U.S. oil production has dropped from 9.2 million barrels a day in 1973 to about 5.4 million barrels today, and the country now imports 60% of its oil.
David F. Morehouse, senior geologist with the U.S. Department of Energy's Energy Information Administration, contends there is more new oil to be found in the continental U.S. Finding it, he says, will "depend on people doing the data analysis and, quite frankly, people going in and drilling enough in the right places."
Mr. Findley, who is 54 years old, did just that. Now production in this part of eastern Montana is growing, and new investors are arriving to explore the potential. At least one midsized firm, Marathon Oil (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=MRO) Co., has begun buying leases. Halliburton (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=hal) Co., the big Houston-based oil-services company, has invested with Mr. Findley. The state says the proven oil find in the area will likely be in the range of 150 million barrels, hardly what oil-patch hands call an "elephant," but nevertheless boosting the nation's proven oil reserves by about 1%.
Some oil folks think there's even more around here. Drillers are finding evidence of a similarly sized field in western North Dakota. Geologists say both fields are part of a 200,000-square-mile formation known as the "Bakken," which lies under parts of Montana, the Dakotas and Canada. No one yet knows how much oil can be extracted from it, but some estimates are sky-high. One federal geochemist who analyzed the formation estimated it contains 400 billion barrels of oil, while a North Dakota state geologist said 200 billion. If even the lower estimate is true, and if 10% can be recovered -- a conservative rule of thumb used by geologists -- the Bakken could eclipse Alaska's Prudhoe Bay as the largest recent U.S. oil find.
Staying Away
Thus far, the lofty predictions remain unproven, and skeptics remain. Most of the biggest oil companies are staying away. "Nobody has a good solid fix on this yet," notes Mr. Morehouse, who says it will take more drilling to determine the true extent of the Bakken.
While many people associate big oil finds with big companies, over the years about 80% of the oil found in the U.S. has been brought in by wildcatters such as Mr. Findley, says Larry Nation, spokesman for the American Association of Petroleum Geologists. Wildcatters search for oil, nail down drilling rights, then seek money from banks or bigger companies to extract it.
Mr. Findley grew up in Corpus Christi, Texas, the son of an accountant for a chain of grocery stores. A brother-in-law, a geologist, hired him as a field assistant to hunt for oil in west Texas. "I just fell in love with geology," he recalls. He graduated from Texas A&M University in 1975 and got a job as a geologist with Tenneco Oil Co. In 1983 he left to found his own Montana-based consulting and exploration company, a one-man operation.
Three years later, world oil prices crashed, and fluctuating prices dogged Mr. Findley as he tried to stay in the business. In the 1990s, the majors left the area in the belief that it was played out. Mr. Findley felt there was more oil to be found and began putting together small exploration deals.
His income had dropped by more than half to $45,000 a year, and he wasn't sure how much longer that would last. "Many times, my wife and I sat down at the kitchen table and said, 'What are we going to do next?' We always came to the same conclusion. [Geology] is what I know. This is what I love. So we just kept going."
Mr. Findley decided to scrutinize the Bakken formation, which consists of a thin layer of silt and broken rock sandwiched between two layers of oil-bearing shale. The majors had assumed that oil could be extracted from the shale, but after finding only modest amounts, they gave up.
Mr. Findley was interested in the middle layer they had ignored. The majors had figured this rocky layer was so tightly packed that whatever oil resided there could not be extracted economically. So they drilled right through it. Reviewing old drilling records, Mr. Findley concluded the "middle member" held an underground sea of high quality crude at least 50 miles long and 12 miles wide, which could be tapped using a different extraction technique.
With help from a real-estate agent named Bob Robinson, Mr. Findley quietly began buying drilling rights for thousands of acres. Mr. Findley figured that by drilling down the old holes and then injecting water and sand to make the rock layer more porous -- a process called "fracking," or fracturing -- the trapped oil would be released. But the job was too big for his tiny company, which normally explored fields of 300 acres or less. This job involved at least 300 square miles.
Mr. Findley put together a partnership with Bobby B. Lyle, who heads Lyco Energy Corp., a small Dallas-based oil-exploration company. In exchange for financing and drilling expertise, Lyco received a 75% stake. Mr. Lyle says his company was so taken with Mr. Findley's theory that "none of us had thought much about what to do if it didn't work."
It didn't work. After drilling down 10 old "dry holes," Lyco found that the process was releasing oil, but not enough to justify the new drilling. In 1997, when oil dropped to $8 a barrel, the partners stopped drilling.
"We concluded that we were sitting on a lot of oil," says Mr. Lyle, but that conventional vertical wells couldn't handle the job. "The question was: How do you extract it commercially?"
He approached Halliburton, which had expertise in a relatively new drilling technique called horizontal drilling. Using computer-controlled rigs and motorized, directional drill bits, Halliburton could drill 10,000 feet down, then maneuver the bit to work horizontally. Messrs. Findley and Lyle figured the process would allow a much bigger fracking operation. Halliburton decided to take a stake, which none of the partners will quantify.
Cash from the Halliburton deal allowed Lyco to buy drilling rights to more than 100,000 acres. In May 2000, drillers bored a 10,000-foot vertical well called Burning Tree State 36-2H. That May 26, a fleet of trucks carrying water, sand and diesel engines for fracking clustered around the drilling rig. Technicians, watching their laptops, turned the drill horizontally and waited for it to move across the rocky layer. After several hours, one of them flipped a switch and the oil began flowing up the pipe.
"We watched that well from April to December just to be sure this wasn't a fluke," recalls Mr. Lyle, an engineer and former dean of Southern Methodist University's business school. Meanwhile, he was working out plans with Halliburton to drill more horizontal wells and to buy more drilling rights.
They weren't the only ones watching. Engineers from Headington Oil Co. LP, another small Dallas-based drilling company working in the area, had hired college students to count the tank trucks hauling oil from the well. Headington, which had arrived in Sidney in 1997, was also pondering records of the supposedly dry holes drilled by the majors. But Headington was drilling into a less productive field than Lyco's, and had had relatively little success.
When the big Lyco tanker-truck counts came in, Headington began buying more leases. New oil production in the region "had been dead for so long that we were able to keep prices very reasonable," recalls Gary Polasek, a Headington geologist and technical manager.
Under Montana law, six months after the Burning Tree well began producing, Lyco had to disclose its methods to the state, which caused further scrambling at Headington. "When their first well came in, we felt we could improve upon it," says Mr. Polasek. His company hired Schlumberger (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=SLB) Ltd., Halliburton's major rival, to work out a way to tap the Bakken using horizontal drilling and fracking.
There are currently 225 rigs drilling for oil in North America, according to industry records. Twenty are drilling in the Sidney area and more are coming. Montana records show 13 oil companies drilling in the Bakken. "They're drilling [wells] as fast as 20 rigs can drill. We'll probably get 150 new wells a year at this rate, and there are very, very few dry holes," says Tom Richmond, administrator for Montana's Board of Oil and Gas Conservation.
What's unusual about this boom, says Mr. Richmond, is that small companies like Headington and Lyco have most of the key acreage tied up in leases. "There's not a lot of room for other people to get involved," he says. Still, "there are others trying to buy around the edges in hopes the play will get bigger yet."
A 1999 study by Leigh C. Price, a highly regarded geochemist who worked for the Denver office of the United States Geological Survey, suggests that it might. Mr. Price examined 107 old wells in North Dakota and found evidence of unextracted oil in the broken-rock layer of all of them. He estimated that there were 413 billion barrels of high-quality crude to be found between the two layers of shale -- right where Mr. Findley found it. But the study by Mr. Price, who died in 2002, was never published.
Julie LeFever, a geologist for the North Dakota Geological Survey, reviewed the same material used by Mr. Price. Taking a more conservative forecasting approach, she estimates the Bakken has 200 billion barrels.
Untapped Potential
Some bigger oil companies are hearing the message. "This entire region of the Rockies holds untapped potential that can contribute much needed supplies to help meet U.S. demand," says Marathon spokesman Paul Weeditz, though he won't elaborate on the company's plans for its recent Bakken lease purchases.
In August, Enerplus Resources Fund, a large Canadian investor in oil and gas properties, bought Lyco and set plans for investing in new wells in the Bakken. Halliburton retains its stake in the venture.
Shell, which left Sidney in the 1990s, says it is not coming back. "In the 1990s, Shell exited many onshore properties in order to dedicate resources to the exploration and development of the deepwater Gulf of Mexico," says a spokeswoman, Kelly op de Weegh. Since then, she says, Shell has resumed some onshore exploration, but is only looking for natural gas.
Mr. Findley and his wife, Lynn, still have long discussions over the kitchen table, but they're no longer about the survival of his tiny Billings company, Prospector Oil Inc. They're about remodeling their house, which they bought in 1978. That's about the only sign his neighbors will see that he has become a wealthy man. The rest goes into the bank, he says. "I'm going to build an estate for my family that will last for a long time to come."

[hades]

How about drive less?
Car Pool?
Get a fuel-efficient car?
Ride the bus.....

Fuuck it, b**** about the price and how the man is scewing us.

We actually just bought a Hybrid, it fricken rocks in town, for an SUV. I can crusie from the main street to my house and only use battery power, 99.9 MPG! (as long as I stay under 25 MPH)

[Jason in LA]

This is one of the few posts on the thread with some reality. Refined products are all produced according to mandated standards. What makes the difference in the branding is the additives. That's how you get "detergents" in Mobil gas. "Techron" in Chevron gas. "System 3" in the old Texaco brand. You essentially pay for chemically enhanced upgrades.

As for the gasoline at the U Pump 'Em? Their tanker pulled up to the same rack the above mentioned companies did.

So should I just buy gas from the non-brand stations, if it's all the same gas? I always thought it was a lower quality of gas. But if it's the same stuff, I'll go the Quick 'N Split over Mobile.

[Tredici]

Well you thought wrong. What's new?

Here is the rest of the email...

By now you're probably thinking gasoline priced at about $1.50 is super cheap. Me too! It is currently $2.79 for regular unleaded in my town. Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a gallon of gas is CHEAP at $1.50 - $1.75, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace..not sellers. With the price of gasoline going up more each day, we consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of gas come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their gas! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. How?

we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace.

For some reason that sentence right there made me laugh.

As for how? Already explained. Can't happen. So pass up an Exxon station and stop at the U Pump It. Where you will probably be putting Exxon gas into your vehicle.

I love the American public. We are so dumb on so many fronts it is frightening to think about it for very long.

Go Broncos.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I love the American public. We are so dumb on so many fronts it is frightening to think about it for very long.

Go Broncos.

Yep Wait till we have a thread on the beverage industry. Lots of dumb suckers.

[yavoon]

as long as we stop this ethanol crap

[alkemical]

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/03/1811962.php

FEDERAL RESERVE ORDERS TWO TRILLION DOLLARS TO BE PRINTED AND PUT INTO
CIRCULATION!
By Special Report
Mar 28, 2006, 21:05

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_21569.shtml


TWO TRILLION $$
SOURCES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES TREASURY ARE FLABBERGASTED!

INFO CORROBORATED BY THREE SEPARATE U.S. TREASURY SOURCES
Six months ago, the Federal Reserve quietly announced that as of March 20,
2006, they would no longer publish "M3" Data. The "M3" was the amount of
cash the government printed to put into circulation, propping-up the U.S.
economy.

As of eight days ago, M3 data is no longer being reported, so there is no
way for the public, investors or bond holders to know how much currency
exists - and no way to gauge how much a "dollar" is truly worth.



http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=9991

FED - 'FESS UP ON M3
Thursday, March 23, 2006 - FreeMarketNews.com

March 23rd is more than a normal day. A release from DownsizeDC serves as a reminder that today the Federal Reserve stops publishing a statistic known as M3 - the best information available on how much new currency is being created and held around the world. The release points out that "The Federal Reserve can create new dollars out of thin air. ... When more dollars are created prices rise and the value of your savings fall."

As of today, the Fed has stopped publishing this data for public analysis, and DownsizeDC is not alone in its suspicions about the reasons why. There have been a spate of articles on the 'Net recently speculating about the Fed's fairly dramatic move, some linking it to a possibile Iranian commodities bourse that will offer an alternative to the so-called US petrodollar. "The Fed is planning to do a lot of 'legal counterfeiting,' and wants to hide it," the release concludes.

The release also notes that Congressman Ron Paul [R-TX] has introduced legislation to require the Fed to resume reporting the M3 statistic, and Downsize urges taxpaying citizens to contact their own representatives to support the bill called The Sunshine in Monetary Policy Act. - ST




http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060420/pl_nm/korea_north_fraud_dc

North Korea says it has "shocking evidence" of US plot

SEOUL (Reuters) - North Korea has charged the United States with counterfeiting its own currency and shifting the blame to Pyongyang, adding artists with "blood-shot eyes" in Japan are making cartoons attacking Pyongyang's leaders.

A spokesman for the Ministry of People's Security said in a statement the North had obtained "shocking evidence" Washington and Tokyo are producing false material that gives the impression Pyongyang is a criminal state, the North's KCNA news agency said late Wednesday.

"The CIA secretly enlist(s) experts on counterfeiting notes claimed to be the 'most sophisticated in the world' and invite(s) them to issue lots of fake currencies at 'counterfeit notes printing houses of North Korean-style' operating in U.S. military bases in different parts of the world," the spokesman said.

[ak1971]

With the current rise in gasoline, and everything else. I am really amazed more people/companies havent looked into working at home. The technology is there for most office based jobs to have people work at home. Companies save money from overhead of office space, people arent spending as much on gas, etc...just my two cents.

[Tredici]

With the current rise in gasoline, and everything else. I am really amazed more people/companies havent looked into working at home. The technology is there for most office based jobs to have people work at home. Companies save money from overhead of office space, people arent spending as much on gas, etc...just my two cents.

I think that's worth more than 2 cents. It is a very viable alternative for many workers. Hard to break the comfort zone and status quo though.

[CoBear23]

I don't and haven't for a long time, buy from them but a lot of oil is "pooled".


Nope, not even a fraction of what they have.

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/931/oil8fl.png
http://tinyurl.com/bkjkc

the amount of shale oil that is in the mountains of Colorado, Utah and Wyoming could replace or need to import oil from the gulf in less than 10 years. Please note that shale oil is oil that is produced by well drilling, so some might quantify the amount differnetly

[errand]

If Alaska and Kansas had all of this oil, then why in the hell would we be sending our troops across the ocean in the most volitile part of the world to protect our interest in the oil supplies there? Because of the "****ing enviro ******s in the Senate?" The Senate and the House are both Republican owned and operated.

If you're not allowed to drill for the oil, where else would you get it from TJ? The point is even if it's not the payload some claim it would be...it would still reduce the amount we get from other nations.

As for the claim that congress is "controlled" by the Republicans...sure they hold the majority, but they still need about 5 or 6 Dems to go with them to get any legislation passed.

Unfortunately for we the people the left has been hijacked by the kook nut jobs of the far left who look out for nothing but their special interests be it the environmentalists, animal rights activists, gay rights, or the unions.

Ask a room full of 500 Dems what the biggest issue is in America today, and you'll probably get about 450 different answers. The one thing they agree on almost 100% is that they hate Bush.....oh, yeah, and raise taxes.

[errand]

We actually just bought a Hybrid, it fricken rocks in town, for an SUV. I can crusie from the main street to my house and only use battery power, 99.9 MPG! (as long as I stay under 25 MPH)

Great, that means there'll be more gas for my big SUV...:D

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'll post the article separate from this post.

We have a multitude of recoverable oil onshore in the US, but it's pockets here and there. Drill tech. and horizontal drilling tech. have resulted in fewer well heads and we're getting more production per wellhead than ever before. The holes don't go dry, there just comes a point where cost outweighs profits and they pull off the sight. Independents can drill those because they tend to have lower costs and are willing to accept the tighter margins. At >$60/bl, expensive or not, tar sands, oil shale, and other technologically difficult formations profitable and more likely to be developed.

Frankly, and you and I seem to have no common ground here but that just happens from time to time...it's cool, it's America, I don't see where wind mills, compost, solar, are efficient enough to compete on the large scale that fossil fuels serve. Sure, they can be used to augment existing energy sources but as a whole sale implementation it is just not feasable. Take wind farms for example. The most productive windmill produces at 5KWH, whereas a coal fired plant produces >280KWH. Hydrogen requires a considerable amount of natural gas to produce. Plastics, benzine dependent products (such as asperin and other pharmaceuticals) come from crude. I don't have a problem or much care if people choose to augment their existing supplies in this fashion. However, to suggest that they will serve as a whole sale substitute, I believe, has no basis in a realistic discussion of immediate energy sustainability. Once a viable, and efficient source comes along, it will be supported and I'll be happy to do so.

Thx for posting the article. Bakken is a term I heard used to describe oil fields in Canada so that's what had me initially interested.

I think it's pretty safe to say the U.S. isn't going to be able to drastically increase oil production no matter what we do. In fact, a steady reduction is more likely.

As far as power generation, wind farms are becoming competitive in costs for that generation. And some farms are now sporting 1.5 megawatt turbines on each tower (100+ megawatt farms are becoming common). As the technology is used more and more, it will become cheaper and better.

Coal fired power plants are our big producers of power. With new clean coal technology, they are far more desirable than nuclear plants. we have enough coal for hundreds of years to power the country. We're starting construction on a new 850 MW plant at Comanche in Pueblo this year.
Compared to nuclear plants, coal fired plants are cheaper and only take about half (or less) the time to build than a nuclear plant.

Toyota and Honda will have over 60% of all their vehicles produced as hybrids within 5 years. This technology will only get better also. This is when we will really see a dent in oil consumption. Biodiesel is really picking up interest too. These two alternate fuels alone will make a dramatic impact in years ahead, substantially reducing our need for oil.

Brazil has a great story in that they have virtually eliminated their need for imported oil as a country using ethanol.

All of these alternative and renewable fuels and energy, together, can greatly reduce our need for imported oil and that's exactly what we should be doing as a country.

[errand]

Maybe I can take a trip there one day.

...and see what? Tundra...as far as the eye can see. Might as well be stuck on a life raft in the middle of the Pacific ocean.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

...and see what? Tundra...as far as the eye can see. Might as well be stuck on a life raft in the middle of the Pacific ocean.

You might try that sometime?

[errand]

Toyota and Honda will have over 60% of all their vehicles produced as hybrids within 5 years. This technology will only get better also. This is when we will really see a dent in oil consumption.

.

I heard they were reducing the production of hybrids due to lackluster sales......

[errand]

You might try that sometime?

Umm, nope...the point is anwar isn't this pristine wilderness alot of environmentalists would have us believe it is....it's tundra. Nothing more...nothing less.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I heard they were reducing the production of hybrids due to lackluster sales......
No, sales are leveling off after skyrocketing last year. With these gas prices they'll be taking off again. Toyota has waiting lines still, after a year, for their Prius.

Umm, nope...the point is anwar isn't this pristine wilderness alot of environmentalists would have us believe it is....it's tundra. Nothing more...nothing less.It's substantially more, It'a a National Wildlife Refuge.

[sirhcyennek81]

It's substantially more, It'a a National Wildlife Refuge.

That is a giant tundra...

:Broncos:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

That is a giant tundra...

:Broncos:

A little more than that...





http://www.anwr.org/gallery/images/55-Permanent_wilderness.jpg


http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6826/anwr6ws.jpg


http://www.anwr.org/gallery/images/08-Arctic%20Fox.jpg


http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/anwr.jpg


http://www.thelookmachine.com/archives/ANWR-PolarBear.jpg


http://www.intergalacticjester.com/uploaded_images/anwr-map.jpg

[sirhcyennek81]

A little more than that...





http://www.anwr.org/gallery/images/55-Permanent_wilderness.jpg


http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6826/anwr6ws.jpg


http://www.anwr.org/gallery/images/08-Arctic%20Fox.jpg


http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/anwr.jpg


http://www.thelookmachine.com/archives/ANWR-PolarBear.jpg


Pretty country... Tundra is the coldest of all the biomes. Tundra comes from the Finnish word tunturia, meaning treeless plain. It is noted for its frost-molded landscapes, extremely low temperatures, little precipitation, poor nutrients, and short growing seasons. Dead organic material functions as a nutrient pool. The two major nutrients are nitrogen and phosphorus. Nitrogen is created by biological fixation, and phosphorus is created by precipitation. Tundra is separated into two types: arctic tundra and alpine tundra...

So for 60 days, a miniscule % of this refuge looks like two of these pictures. The rest is closer to the Polarbears and Fox.

:Broncos:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So for 60 days, a miniscule % of this refuge looks like two of these pictures. The rest is closer to the Polarbears and Fox.
:Broncos:
No, a large part of the park looks like those pictures.




http://www.intergalacticjester.com/uploaded_images/anwr-map.jpg

[sirhcyennek81]

No, a large part of the park looks like those pictures.




http://www.intergalacticjester.com/uploaded_images/anwr-map.jpg


for 60 days...what about the other 295?

:Broncos:

[RaiderH8r]

No, a large part of the park looks like those pictures.




http://www.intergalacticjester.com/uploaded_images/anwr-map.jpg
It does. However, the section being considered for drilling is the 1002 area, and a very small part of the 1002 area is what people are intrigued by.

[RaiderH8r]

Thx for posting the article. Bakken is a term I heard used to describe oil fields in Canada so that's what had me initially interested.

I think it's pretty safe to say the U.S. isn't going to be able to drastically increase oil production no matter what we do. In fact, a steady reduction is more likely.

As far as power generation, wind farms are becoming competitive in costs for that generation. And some farms are now sporting 1.5 megawatt turbines on each tower (100+ megawatt farms are becoming common). As the technology is used more and more, it will become cheaper and better.

Coal fired power plants are our big producers of power. With new clean coal technology, they are far more desirable than nuclear plants. we have enough coal for hundreds of years to power the country. We're starting construction on a new 850 MW plant at Comanche in Pueblo this year.
Compared to nuclear plants, coal fired plants are cheaper and only take about half (or less) the time to build than a nuclear plant.

Toyota and Honda will have over 60% of all their vehicles produced as hybrids within 5 years. This technology will only get better also. This is when we will really see a dent in oil consumption. Biodiesel is really picking up interest too. These two alternate fuels alone will make a dramatic impact in years ahead, substantially reducing our need for oil.

Brazil has a great story in that they have virtually eliminated their need for imported oil as a country using ethanol.

All of these alternative and renewable fuels and energy, together, can greatly reduce our need for imported oil and that's exactly what we should be doing as a country.
I appreciate the thoughtful response.

As prices continue to stay high companies are going to look to deplete mature fields further. Traditional oil production focused on the easy pickens and when it became too difficult or costly to produce the well further they moved on. There are still tremendous reserves in unconventional plays that are becoming more and more available as technology improves. Oil and its byproducts have become so part and parcel to everyday life that most take it for granted and presume the only useful product to come from a barrel of crude is the gas they pump in their tank.

Having said that I don't out of hand oppose alternative energy sources, I rather like the idea of improved technology in that regard. However, I know a little on the subject and I'm pretty savvy in the political realm and the public is a fickle mistress. Much like nuclear, wind farms have the same "not in my backyard" obstacle to overcome. Windfarms will be visible, people don't like that. Some environmental groups seriously oppose that. Stupid and short sighted I know but it is what it is.

National Geographic, last month, did two stories on nuclear. One was a 20 year visit to Chernobyl examing the devastation that disaster wrought. Very well written article. The main point I came away with is that life is reclaiming the region much more quickly than previously thought. Lifeforms may be fragile, but life itself is fairly resilient. Interesting.

The other article dealt with the current machinations involved with revisiting nuclear power as a viable source for the US. The article pointed out that some environmental groups are actually sitting at the table to examine what technology exists and that nuclear is probably the single best way to address emissions issues from plants.

Cleaning up current fossil usage is a good way to address environmental concerns while looking for a viable, efficient, and widespread energy source. But people have to recognize the cost of their prohibitive resource extraction position is going to be high prices and the ripple effect of those prices is tremendous.

Hybrids need to continue to move their price points down and as they begin to fill up used car lots their usage will blossom once again in the near future. But they are impractical for some folks none the less.

[alkemical]

why does our energy solution have to be 'one size fits all' -

also, we can use biodiesel for our trains!!!!

[Tredici]

Yep Wait till we have a thread on the beverage industry. Lots of dumb suckers.

Well, maybe you better start that one. Are you referring to the adult beverages or the soft drink beverages or the pure water beverages, or all in general?

My favorite thing is the restaurants who charge $2.00 for a 16 ounce glass of Cola - but you get "free" refills.

Of course paying 7 or 8 bucks for a mixta that has one shot of some unbranded whiskey in it is also brilliant.

Or paying $1.00 a bottle for re-cycled LA City Water....

[GonzoLays]

Well, maybe you better start that one. Are you referring to the adult beverages or the soft drink beverages or the pure water beverages, or all in general?

My favorite thing is the restaurants who charge $2.00 for a 16 ounce glass of Cola - but you get "free" refills.

Of course paying 7 or 8 bucks for a mixta that has one shot of some unbranded whiskey in it is also brilliant.

Or paying $1.00 a bottle for re-cycled LA City Water....

Its a freaking drink. You don't have to purchase a drink to survive in today's world.

My suggestion to you is cook your own food and make lemonade at the house if swinging two dollars for drink with refills gets your panties in a wad.

Or just continue to eat at Wendy's every Friday with fam and celebrate the fact you got a biggie drink for 99 cents WITH FREE REFILLS!!! Those suckas!

[Tredici]

Its a freaking drink. You don't have to purchase a drink to survive in today's world.

My suggestion to you is cook your own food and make lemonade at the house if swinging two dollars for drink with refills gets your panties in a wad.

Or just continue to eat at Wendy's every Friday with fam and celebrate the fact you got a biggie drink for 99 cents WITH FREE REFILLS!!! Those suckas!

Or, I'll wait for a response from the person who brought up the subject and therefore probably has something intelligent to offer.

In the meantime why don't you explain to all of us again how you are going to bring down ExxonMobil by withholding 30 bucks at their branded stations by giving them the money at their unbranded outlets.

[Rascal]

Nobody wants wind farms near them because they are unsightly.

[alkemical]

Or, I'll wait for a response from the person who brought up the subject and therefore probably has something intelligent to offer.

In the meantime why don't you explain to all of us again how you are going to bring down ExxonMobil by withholding 30 bucks at their branded stations by giving them the money at their unbranded outlets.


you do it by making fun of people who drive hybrids!;D

[GonzoLays]

Or, I'll wait for a response from the person who brought up the subject and therefore probably has something intelligent to offer.



WTF? Intelligent discussion on sodas? Is there such a thing?

Why don't you give us your "intellectual take" on the absurd and unethical pricing of sodas at local eateries across this nation.

Maybe you should picket? Possibly chain yourself to a door at Red Lobster and protest until they bring down the price on their Diet Dr. Pepper?

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Well, maybe you better start that one. Are you referring to the adult beverages or the soft drink beverages or the pure water beverages, or all in general?

My favorite thing is the restaurants who charge $2.00 for a 16 ounce glass of Cola - but you get "free" refills.

Of course paying 7 or 8 bucks for a mixta that has one shot of some unbranded whiskey in it is also brilliant.

Or paying $1.00 a bottle for re-cycled LA City Water....

I don't know much about the soft drink industry, but I spent 8 years earlier in my life in the adult beverage industry. When you see the processes you understand why the premum brands can pay for those nice glossy ads and the most expensive placements.

The bottled water fad is crazy to me also, but I don't want to get in an argument about it. I fight with my wife enough about it.

Maybe I'll start an adult beverage reality thread sometime when I am bored.

[Tredici]

I don't know much about the soft drink industry, but I spent 8 years earlier in my life in the adult beverage industry. When you see the processes you understand why the premum brands can pay for those nice glossy ads and the most expensive placements.

The bottled water fad is crazy to me also, but I don't want to get in an argument about it. I fight with my wife enough about it.

Maybe I'll start an adult beverage reality thread sometime when I am bored.

Well, if the draft doesn't hurry up, that boredom could be relatively soon... Of course this subject seems to be a little above Gonzo's head. But then this whole thread explains his inability to grasp fairly simple concepts. PT Barnum turns out to be correct..... again.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I don't know much about the soft drink industry, but I spent 8 years earlier in my life in the adult beverage industry. When you see the processes you understand why the premum brands can pay for those nice glossy ads and the most expensive placements.

The bottled water fad is crazy to me also, but I don't want to get in an argument about it. I fight with my wife enough about it.
Maybe I'll start an adult beverage reality thread sometime when I am bored.
Well, I'll admit I drink bottled water (spring water) but I buy it by the case for about $4 for it's convenience and I only usually use it when I'm in the Gulf fishing.

I haven't drank pop since the early '90s though.

[Rock Chalk]

No, sales are leveling off after skyrocketing last year. With these gas prices they'll be taking off again. Toyota has waiting lines still, after a year, for their Prius.

It's substantially more, It'a a National Wildlife Refuge.
Prius wont be made in 5 years now that they started making their flagship a hybrid.

And the hybrid Camry has the same look as the gas Camry, only more fuel efficient.

Since I only buy japanese cars as American cars are worthless adn German cars overrated, my next Honda will likely be a hybrid. If they bring back the Prelude I will be stoked, particularly in a hybrid model thats affordable.

Back to the energy thing.

Europe has started to put solar panels on top of buildings. There is a new panel thats much cheaper and more efficient than the solar panels of yesteryear out there and the energy savings is upwards of 25% per building.

If we could get merely half of all the businesses and residences to put enough solar panels up to reach that 25% savings, we would reduce energy consumption in this country by roughly 12.5%.

Doesnt sound like much, but combined with other's that's actually quite HUGE.

[55CrushEm]

A little more than that...





http://www.anwr.org/gallery/images/55-Permanent_wilderness.jpg


http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6826/anwr6ws.jpg


http://www.anwr.org/gallery/images/08-Arctic%20Fox.jpg


http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/anwr.jpg


http://www.thelookmachine.com/archives/ANWR-PolarBear.jpg


http://www.intergalacticjester.com/uploaded_images/anwr-map.jpg


Wow.....very pretty. Unfortunately for your argument, the proposed drilling sites would not be in these areas.....the sites would be in the mosquito-ridden, barren tundra as the other poster pointed out.....

[Rock Chalk]

Drilling isnt that big of a deal.

Kinda funny how that alaskan pipeline was a big no no to teh EPA twits but ended up helping out various wildlife up there by melting the snow around it and allowing the grass to grow so that Caribou and other such worthless critters whom none of us are likely to ever see or benefit from can eat.

I dont see why the epa twits are up in arms about drilling there. The environment will not be harmed like they claim as claims are usually on the outrageous side of theory.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Well, I'll admit I drink bottled water (spring water) but I buy it by the case for about $4 for it's convenience and I only usually use it when I'm in the Gulf fishing.

I haven't drank pop since the early '90s though.

I don't know anything about your local water supply, but I wouldn't blame you for drinking bottled water if it is anything like the water in other areas of Texas, NM and AZ.

[Arkie]

I buy gas from the only station in a 40 mile radius. It's a Conoco that has us by the balls.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Wow.....very pretty. Unfortunately for your argument, the proposed drilling sites would not be in these areas.....the sites would be in the mosquito-ridden, barren tundra as the other poster pointed out.....

Oh yeah, it's completely uninhabitable. :unamused: But it doesn't matter, it's like pissing in the wind, the amount and the costs of recovering oil from a NATIONAL Wildlife refuge isn't worth it. The major oil companies have said as much.


Big Oil Steps Aside in Battle Over Arctic
By JEFF GERTH
Correction Appended
WASHINGTON, Feb. 20 - George W. Bush first proposed drilling for oil in a small part of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska in 2000, after oil industry experts helped his presidential campaign develop an energy plan. Five years later, he is pushing the proposal again, saying the nation urgently needs to increase domestic production.

But if Mr. Bush's drilling plan passes in Congress after what is expected to be a fierce fight, it may prove to be a triumph of politics over geology.

Once allied, the administration and the oil industry are now far apart on the issue. The major oil companies are largely uninterested in drilling in the refuge, skeptical about the potential there. Even the plan's most optimistic backers agree that any oil from the refuge would meet only a tiny fraction of America's needs.
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/5lw9o

By then, the industry was moving in the opposite direction. In 2002 BP withdrew financial support from Arctic Power, a lobbying group financed by the state of Alaska, after an earlier withdrawal by Chevron Texaco. BP, long active in Alaska, later moved its team of executives to Houston from Alaska, a company executive said.

"We're leaving this to the American public to sort out," said Ronnie Chappell, a BP spokesman, of the refuge. About a year ago, ConocoPhillips also stopped its financial support for Arctic Power, said Kristi A. DesJarlais, a company spokeswoman.

Ms. DesJarlais said her company had a "conceptual interest" in the refuge but "a more immediate interest in opportunities elsewhere."

Other companies have taken similar positions. George L. Kirkland, an executive vice president of Chevron Texaco, said a still-banned section in the Gulf of Mexico, where the company has already drilled, was of more immediate interest. ExxonMobil also has shown little public enthusiasm for the refuge. Lee R. Raymond, the chairman and chief executive, said in an television interview last December, "I don't know if there is anything in ANWR or not."

[RaiderH8r]

Prius wont be made in 5 years now that they started making their flagship a hybrid.

And the hybrid Camry has the same look as the gas Camry, only more fuel efficient.

Since I only buy japanese cars as American cars are worthless adn German cars overrated, my next Honda will likely be a hybrid. If they bring back the Prelude I will be stoked, particularly in a hybrid model thats affordable.

Back to the energy thing.

Europe has started to put solar panels on top of buildings. There is a new panel thats much cheaper and more efficient than the solar panels of yesteryear out there and the energy savings is upwards of 25% per building.

If we could get merely half of all the businesses and residences to put enough solar panels up to reach that 25% savings, we would reduce energy consumption in this country by roughly 12.5%.

Doesnt sound like much, but combined with other's that's actually quite HUGE.
Cost cost cost. Two things, straight away that are driving up the cost of solar panels quickly and tremendously.

1. Europe's push. Creating a massive demand and they're making the push hard so that demand is short term and bound to level off in 7-10 years. Which is good for us.

2. The silicon used in those panels is the same used in the computer industry, putting more strain on the supply. Computer industry use is climbing and will probably continue to do so barring unforseen crash in the industry. Not likely, more people are buying every day and there's no industry that better understands the concept of "planned obsolescence".

Therefor, it makes sense for the US consumers to ride out the current price spike in the solar panel business and focus on other means of trimming fossil energy consumption by putting that money to other use. Let the Europeans find out if this is a turd before we jump into the market wholesale. In the meantime, Europe's trials and errors in this endeavor will serve to create a better, more efficient product for the US to utilize and at a lower cost. Booongada. It's good to be the King...Hail to the King baby.

[hades]

LMAO, this thread is crackign me up! Isn't the markup on gas really low for most (not all) but most retailers? Stop buying coffee, gum, chips etc. from Exxon/Mobile, that is where they make the big $$$. I saw something or read something that Exxon was going to offer premium coffees at some of its stores because the demand for such items was high. That equals more profits for them.

As far as Hybrids go, we just bought one, and we weren't in the market for one. They just had some really good deals on them and the offer was too good to pass up vs. the regular gas model. The wife loves it, and I continue to drive my gas hog Mustang and Torino!

[Broncos Rule]

the point of ANWAR for the oil conglomerates isn't getting oil out of the Alaskan bush - it's the legal precedent that will be established.

get their toe in with ANWAR - then file multiple exception requests in other similarly protected areas - primarily offshore.

[ak1971]

the point of ANWAR for the oil conglomerates isn't getting oil out of the Alaskan bush - it's the legal precedent that will be established.

get their toe in with ANWAR - then file multiple exception requests in other similarly protected areas - primarily offshore.


Whats the problem with Alaskan bush? I prefer Colorado bush myself.

[Broncos Rule]

Earlier someone posited "why would they risk American lives in the mid East if there is all this oil in N America?"

Answer is simple: Mid East oil is cheap and easy to get at. the infrastructure is in place and working overtime to get ME oil out of the ground and to market. As long as it's that cheap and easy, we'd be fools not to buy their oil now and save our own for later.

Sadly, it just makes strategic sense.

[errand]

Oh yeah, it's completely uninhabitable. :unamused: But it doesn't matter, it's like pissing in the wind, the amount and the costs of recovering oil from a NATIONAL Wildlife refuge isn't worth it. The major oil companies have said as much.




Gotta love how you shifted your argument from "it's a pristine wilderness" to "well, there's no oil there"....

If it doesn't matter, then why the big fuss over whether or not it gets drilled?

[maven]

Maybe you are an idiot? The answer to your question is in bold.


Looks like you're the idiot.

Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!"

The two biggest companies? Can you read dumb****? They are ONE company. It's XOM(or for your little brain, Exxon Mobil Corp.). Now if the email had said the two biggest companies Exxon Mobil & BP. Then your stupid email would've made sense.

[maven]

LMAO, this thread is crackign me up! Isn't the markup on gas really low for most (not all) but most retailers? Stop buying coffee, gum, chips etc. from Exxon/Mobile, that is where they make the big $$$. I saw something or read something that Exxon was going to offer premium coffees at some of its stores because the demand for such items was high. That equals more profits for them.



Good point. Sounds like a lot of you have never talked to people who own gas stations. I have some friends who own gas stations. Gas station owners make their big $$$ off of cigs, beer, chips, soda, phone cards, ice cream bars, etc. Haven't a lot of you noticed the gas stations that go out of business are the ones with a ****ty convenience store?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Gotta love how you shifted your argument from "it's a pristine wilderness" to "well, there's no oil there"....
If it doesn't matter, then why the big fuss over whether or not it gets drilled?
Didn't shift anything (just added more facts that the corporate lackeys hate to hear) but I love it when you're reduced to "not playing fair" whining.

It's National Wildlife Refuge (for you folk in the Carolina hills that means it's land put aside for all American citizens to experience and enjoy and NOT for corporations to destroy in the quest of obscene profits).

[chadta]

Since I only buy japanese cars as American cars are worthless adn German cars overrated

a car is a car is a car, it dosent matter where it came from, honda and toyota have just as many recalls on there cars as ford or gm, but youve been told for so many years that imports are better so it must be true, a clear case of perception is reality, and as usual its not.

now onto the original topic, you guys might like this its a long read but its a good one

http://www.reformation.org/energy-non-crisis.html

are we finally at the point where a gallon of gas costs more then a gallon of water ?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

a car is a car is a car, it dosent matter where it came from, honda and toyota have just as many recalls on there cars as ford or gm, but youve been told for so many years that imports are better so it must be true, a clear case of perception is reality, and as usual its not.

Absolutely incorrect. Toyota and Honda produce superior vehicles compared to GM and Ford. Maintenance records, crash tests and mileage tests all clearly show that.

[Tombstone RJ]

a car is a car is a car, it dosent matter where it came from, honda and toyota have just as many recalls on there cars as ford or gm, but youve been told for so many years that imports are better so it must be true, a clear case of perception is reality, and as usual its not.

I disagree. But that is JMHO. I notice you have a Yamaha avatar. Do you think that particular Japanese motorcycle is superior to other bikes? Hmmm.

[watermock]

Some idiot (brother) left the water running in the can and I had a 212 dollar water bill, and the water there smells like carp piss anyway. If you think american cars are better than the products like toyota and honda, even now, your crazy. American cars have dramatically improved however and I'm not scared to buy one. The produced some collosal crap from about 74 to 94 tho. Recently, they fell into the idiocy that everyone wanted an SUV and now they can't give them away at a loss. They have gradually made us think that "crossovers" are SUV's when all they are is stationwagons, many not as stout as the Vista Cruiser from the 70's show.

When I was selling fords, I looked under a Ford Escape and it's drive train wasn't any more rugged that a Toyota Tercel, FWD, not FourWD and very light drivetrain with a 4 cylinder.

They want us to buy lightweight stationwagons as SUV's now. They aren't even RWD and most are on car chassis.

[hades]

a car is a car is a car, it dosent matter where it came from, honda and toyota have just as many recalls on there cars as ford or gm, but youve been told for so many years that imports are better so it must be true, a clear case of perception is reality, and as usual its not.

now onto the original topic, you guys might like this its a long read but its a good one

http://www.reformation.org/energy-non-crisis.html

are we finally at the point where a gallon of gas costs more then a gallon of water ?


If that's true why do people live longer who drive Volvo's? Hilarious!

[chadta]

I disagree. But that is JMHO. I notice you have a Yamaha avatar. Do you think that particular Japanese motorcycle is superior to other bikes? Hmmm.


honestly, no i like it cuz it looks good, in this day and age all sport bikes are just about equal, that and i am just not a good enough rider to be able to tell the differences, most people arent, if they are odds are they are racing in the ama or wsbk or moto gp or something.

as for the car thing

check this out

2000 ford taurus 8 recalls 108 service bulletins

2000 honada accord 10 recalls 136 service bulletins

2000 nissan maxima 1 recall 62 service bulletins

2000 chevy malibu 2 recalls 73 service bulletins

http://www.mycarstats.com/console.asp

plug your own cars into that foriegn and domestic and i think you will find the same thing, you guys have been told for so long that your cars suck and the imports are so much better that you believe it, you get good and bad cars no matter where you get them from.

[chadta]

oh i forgot to post this, getting back onto the topic of gas,

Here are average gas prices for a gallon of premium in the U.S. and several European countries for the second week of April. The difference is mostly the result of higher taxes: Up to 75 percent of the total cost compared with about 20 percent in the U.S.

• U.K. -- $6.13

• Germany -- $5.96

• Italy -- $5.91

• France -- $5.80

• U.S. -- $2.88

-- Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration

and added from my own calculations 110.0 per liter x3.8 418 a gallon exchanged into US $3.68

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Absolutely incorrect. Toyota and Honda produce superior vehicles compared to GM and Ford. Maintenance records, crash tests and mileage tests all clearly show that.

Find a copy of the Harbour Report (it is hard to get). Confidential report that is paid for by the Automobile Manufacturers Assoc. Completely objective. They have access to all dealer records and compile their stats from those records. Dispells many myths about auto quality. Rates cars at purchase, 90 days, 6 months, 1 year, two years and three years.

[Swedish Extrovert]

Got this in a email:

"Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!"

eh, worth a try.

I havent seen anything posted on this thread, so it might have already been said before.....

I've seen this going around.... this might be the stupidest thing I've ever seen. First of all, who's supplying who with gasoline?

I've noticed that its always "Exxon" and "Mobil"..... you dont think that this was started by some exec working for Shell or Chevron?

Well I've never gassed up at a Exxon or Mobil anyway, so its all good.... the only gas station I have gassed up on since moving to Florida is the Citgo on base. With the exception of the BP station by my buddies house down in Orlando (I live in Orlando for the weekends - more friends, better hockey, better concerts, MUCH nicer).

[Tredici]

I havent seen anything posted on this thread, so it might have already been said before.....

I've seen this going around.... this might be the stupidest thing I've ever seen. First of all, who's supplying who with gasoline?

I've noticed that its always "Exxon" and "Mobil"..... you dont think that this was started by some exec working for Shell or Chevron?

Well I've never gassed up at a Exxon or Mobil anyway, so its all good.... the only gas station I have gassed up on since moving to Florida is the Citgo on base. With the exception of the BP station by my buddies house down in Orlando (I live in Orlando for the weekends - more friends, better hockey, better concerts, MUCH nicer).

Citgo is owned by the Venz. -- A member of Opec.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

honestly, no i like it cuz it looks good, in this day and age all sport bikes are just about equal, that and i am just not a good enough rider to be able to tell the differences, most people arent, if they are odds are they are racing in the ama or wsbk or moto gp or something.

as for the car thing

check this out

2000 ford taurus 8 recalls 108 service bulletins

2000 honada accord 10 recalls 136 service bulletins

2000 nissan maxima 1 recall 62 service bulletins

2000 chevy malibu 2 recalls 73 service bulletins

http://www.mycarstats.com/console.asp

plug your own cars into that foriegn and domestic and i think you will find the same thing, you guys have been told for so long that your cars suck and the imports are so much better that you believe it, you get good and bad cars no matter where you get them from.

Where's your little plugin for crash tests, overall safety tests, mileage tests, and customer satisfaction surveys?

And as hard as it may seem to believe, a lot of people buy cars for reasons other than "you guys have been told for so long" spiel. GM and Ford both have publicly admitted they haven't been as innovative as foreign makers and their bottom lines show this as clear as the records profits for Honda and Toyota do.

[Hogan11]

It really makes no difference....no one is going to send these guys any type of message at all, period. All you can do is look out for yourself in this....which for me means trying to transfer into a job with less pay so I can be 100 yards from work instead of 80 miles and entertaining the thought of buying a scooter.

Thats' right, I said a scooter.....@ $3.50/4.00/5.00 a gal. I'll get a vespa and pretend I'm in Quadrophenia if it saves me that kind of cash.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

The price of gas hasn't stopped anyone around here from driving. I'm ready to pay 5-10 bucks a gallon if it will keep the unregistered / uninsured / illegal alien population from driving.

[yavoon]

Find a copy of the Harbour Report (it is hard to get). Confidential report that is paid for by the Automobile Manufacturers Assoc. Completely objective. They have access to all dealer records and compile their stats from those records. Dispells many myths about auto quality. Rates cars at purchase, 90 days, 6 months, 1 year, two years and three years.

I universally find japanese and now korean cars to be of superior engineering and build quality to most american cars of similar cost. so do most consumer reviews and published industry investigations.

but by all means if a confidential report done by the automobile manufacturer's association disagrees.....

[broncocalijohn]

Absolutely incorrect. Toyota and Honda produce superior vehicles compared to GM and Ford. Maintenance records, crash tests and mileage tests all clearly show that.

gotta agree. My Corolla now has 187,000 miles on it. My Ford escort had trouble reaching beyonf 100,000. Piece of dog crap. Ill stick with Toyota!

[broncocalijohn]

It really makes no difference....no one is going to send these guys any type of message at all, period. All you can do is look out for yourself in this....which for me means trying to transfer into a job with less pay so I can be 100 yards from work instead of 80 miles and entertaining the thought of buying a scooter.

Thats' right, I said a scooter.....@ $3.50/4.00/5.00 a gal. I'll get a vespa and pretend I'm in Quadrophenia if it saves me that kind of cash.

You arent pretending. You want to go back to your Mod/Ska days in High school. Hurry hogan, dig out those cute, little, round button for your vest. Skalicious!

[broncocalijohn]

honestly, no i like it cuz it looks good, in this day and age all sport bikes are just about equal, that and i am just not a good enough rider to be able to tell the differences, most people arent, if they are odds are they are racing in the ama or wsbk or moto gp or something.

as for the car thing

check this out

2000 ford taurus 8 recalls 108 service bulletins

2000 honada accord 10 recalls 136 service bulletins

2000 nissan maxima 1 recall 62 service bulletins

2000 chevy malibu 2 recalls 73 service bulletins

http://www.mycarstats.com/console.asp

plug your own cars into that foriegn and domestic and i think you will find the same thing, you guys have been told for so long that your cars suck and the imports are so much better that you believe it, you get good and bad cars no matter where you get them from.

Recalls only tell part of the problem. I would rather have a recall and fix it then to drive the american car and just suck after a certain point. They just dont last very long.

[GreatBronco16]

Recalls only tell part of the problem. I would rather have a recall and fix it then to drive the american car and just suck after a certain point. They just dont last very long.


Nearly any vehicle will last a very long time if you just take care of it. I've owned a Ford Ranger that had over 200,000 miles on it before I sold it, my dad has a 66 mustang that has well over 200,000 miles on it, I have a Nissan Altima that has 247,000 miles on it and a Mercedes 300D that has over 500,000 km on it and has never been rebuilt.

Some cheap cars are built just like that, cheap.

Take care of your car no matter who built it, and 9 out of 10 times it will last you a very long time.

[maven]

It really makes no difference....no one is going to send these guys any type of message at all, period. All you can do is look out for yourself in this....which for me means trying to transfer into a job with less pay so I can be 100 yards from work instead of 80 miles and entertaining the thought of buying a scooter.

Thats' right, I said a scooter.....@ $3.50/4.00/5.00 a gal. I'll get a vespa and pretend I'm in Quadrophenia if it saves me that kind of cash.

I'm thinking about getting a scooter also. Vespa are nice. They have different sizes. Entry-level I've seen for $1,800.00. I'm also looking at diesels. VW & Benz needs to import more diesels.

[Garcia Bronco]

I still need a car and I'm looking around for perhaps a new one.....new to me.

This is a ****ty time to by a car- Gas is high and there are a low quantity of used hybrid/highly fuel efficient cars. Interest rates are way to high.

[Crowpointer]

Thats' right, I said a scooter.....@ $3.50/4.00/5.00 a gal. I'll get a vespa and pretend I'm in Quadrophenia if it saves me that kind of cash.
Not making fun of your situation but that's pretty funny with the Who reference.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

This is why Ford and GM are in the shi*tter (no innovation and foresight).

-----------------------------------------------------
By ERIC NOE
March 2, 2006 — For the first time in the 10-year history of its list of recommended automobiles, Consumer Reports cited only Japanese-made cars in its 10 "Top Picks" for 2006.

The exclusion of any American-made cars from the list dealt a blow to U.S. automakers, which have tried to reverse the adage that Asian companies make superior cars.

"I think it's indicative of the market," said Rebecca Lindland, auto sales analyst with Global Insight. "Consumer Reports has a very high standard for consumer research — the gold standard really — and for the list of top picks to not have any domestic cars on it really says something."

Honda Places Four in Top 10

Japanese automaker Honda led the way with four of its cars making the list, including first-time entrants Honda Civic and Honda Ridgeline. Honda's luxury line, Acura, also scored with the Acura TL sedan

Toyota made the list with two cars, the Toyota Prius and the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, the only two exclusively gasoline-electric hybrid cars among the top picks. The Subaru Forrester, the Subaru Impreza and the Infiniti M35 rounded out the picks.

American automakers have seen a steady erosion of their market share the past several years as foreign companies, specifically Japanese manufacturers, gained a toehold with American car buyers.

Much of the domestic sales decline stems from a widely held consumer belief that American-made cars are of lower quality than their Asian counterparts. Analysts say U.S. carmakers, Ford and General Motors in particular, have failed to put out passenger cars over the last several years that appeal to American consumers. The all-Japanese Consumer Reports list is likely to reinforce that stigma.

"I think consumers do respond to these types of reports," Lindland said. "Manufacturers can't use Consumer Reports data in their advertising, so it's up to consumers to research this and find out the information for themselves. Unfortunately for the domestic companies, a large percentage of people actually do that research when it comes to buying a car."
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/mtt4u

[Meck77]

It really makes no difference....no one is going to send these guys any type of message at all, period.

I have to agree with you Hogan. A group of Americans not buying gas from a couple gas stations periodically isn't going to do anything. Especially with 1.3 Billion Chinese starving for more resources. Won't be long before they surpass our thirst for oil.

Atleast the $3.00/gallon gas prices are making us open our eyes a bit more. If it hits $4.00 we might actually start seeing people walk 1/2mile to a mile to the neighborhood grocery store like they do in the rest of the world.

[maven]

Especially with 1.3 Billion Chinese starving for more resources. Won't be long before they surpass our thirst for oil.


Don't forget India...

[Rascal]

It really makes no difference....no one is going to send these guys any type of message at all, period. All you can do is look out for yourself in this....which for me means trying to transfer into a job with less pay so I can be 100 yards from work instead of 80 miles and entertaining the thought of buying a scooter.

Thats' right, I said a scooter.....@ $3.50/4.00/5.00 a gal. I'll get a vespa and pretend I'm in Quadrophenia if it saves me that kind of cash.

The wife wants a vespa, but after seeing her crash multiple times on a scooter in Rome I don't think it's a good idea.

[Hogan11]

You arent pretending. You want to go back to your Mod/Ska days in High school. Hurry hogan, dig out those cute, little, round button for your vest. Skalicious!

Whattya mean "wanna go back"? I never fully left the lifestyle behind! Ha!

Look, they have 2 gallon tanks and get 80 miles to the gallon. That's perfect for around town. If I land the job..I fill up the car and park it. Get the scooter for things I don't have the time to walk to and save big time cash. It's better than dumping currently 35 to 40 smacks into the tank per week....if things go right, I'll only have to get fuel every other month at worst.

[Hogan11]

http://72.22.74.110/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=15424&stc=1&d=1145893664

Now that's sweet......just don't look for me to drive it off a cliff at the end of my film. Ha!

[Hogan11]

I'm thinking about getting a scooter also. Vespa are nice. They have different sizes. Entry-level I've seen for $1,800.00. I'm also looking at diesels. VW & Benz needs to import more diesels.

I actually was thinking more along the lines of a Honda Silverwing, if you really want the truth....but yeah, I wouldn't turn a Vespa away at all.

http://www.lerepairedesmotards.com/img/motos/honda/silverwing/honda-silverwing.jpg

[Meck77]

Got this in a email:

"Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!"

eh, worth a try.


Wrong........... Last year sometime I remember calling a few retailers who sold 100% bio diesel http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/biodiesel_basics/default.shtm. At that time I remember it being somewhere around $2.60 a gallon. I don't recall the exact price of regular diesel at the time but I do know the biodiesel was more expensive otherwise I would have given it a try.

Long story short I figured I'd try again thinking surely biodiesel has to be cheaper than the diesel now. Wrong.

Ironically enough the price of 100% non middle east influenced diesel is EXACTLY if not more than the price at the pump for petroleum based diesel.

See where I'm going with this? These companies "concerned" about our environment are jacking up up their vegetable oil based fuel right along side the price of a barrel of oil.

How are we supposed to shift from middle east oil when American companies with supposedly "good intentions" are moving prices right along with the rest of the oil producers?

Maybe it's just my local bio-diesel retailers but they sure didn't like me questioning why their bio-diesel prices mirror the price of petroleum based diesel.

If you own a diesel call and have a retailer in your area give em a call and ask them what their price is for a gallon of pure 100% biodiesel. Keep in mind some of these places only sell a blend of biodiesel that is called B20 which is only 20% biodiesel. Even then it doesn't make sense that the blended price per gallon would be the same as pure diesel.

Here is a map of retailers nationwide. http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/ Maybe you can save some money. It appears I can't in Denver.

[yavoon]

better idea than buying hybrid, since they really dont get the mileage they claim(designed to take advantage of epa test more than reality). is buy the normal car thats 3-4 grand cheaper and w/ the 3-4 grand buy oil futures.

[errand]

Looks like you're the idiot.

Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (who had the LARGEST PROFITS last year than any other year in history and which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL.

I'm amazed at the number of libs complaining about the price of gas...isn't that your dream come true? Afterall the higher the price the less people will be driving those SUV's you despise...and more gutless hybrids will be on the road. Not to mention it'll speed the development of whatever alternative fuel source you guys want. However if you think it's the oil companies robbing you, you better guess again......

Our government (both federal and state) made more money off the sale of gas than Exxon or Mobil did. You should also keep in mind that corporations adjust their prices to cover for the taxes they have to pay. So slapping them with a windfall profit tax is ridiculous as they aren't the one's who'll be paying it anyways.....we will.

The federali's charge us 18.4 cents per gallon....on top of the state's cut (20.1 cents per gallon average nation wide) and any other taxes placed on it by local municipalities. Not to mention the regulatory fees/taxes paid on each gallon because of the different formula's used to meet each state's individual requirements for fuel.

For instance gas here @ Murphy USA is $2.85 per gallon....subtract the fed's 18.4, and it reduces it to $2.67....then subtract the 24.6 cents per for Mike Easley's slush fund, and it drops to $2.42 per gallon. Now for argument's sake let's say another .20 cents per gallon covers the local taxes and regulatory fees...and the price is now at $2.22 per gallon. A savings of .63 cents per gallon...or $9.45 per average tank (15 gallons)

Of course your congressmen and women aren't gonna allow that to happen.....so the truth be known...they don't give a crap about how much you're paying for a gallon of gas. They're just giving you lip service.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'm amazed at the number of libs complaining about the price of gas..
And up shows errant form the back hills of Carolina with his standard liberal bashing BS.

For your info errant, people from all political parties (and even some with no party affiliation) complain about high gas prices.

[hades]

better idea than buying hybrid, since they really dont get the mileage they claim(designed to take advantage of epa test more than reality). is buy the normal car thats 3-4 grand cheaper and w/ the 3-4 grand buy oil futures.

You also get a tax credit (not an adjustment to your income) when you buy or lease a Hybrid, so next year I'll get to take a big time tax break, around $2600. The SUV we got does get pretty darn good mileage in town, really close to what the sticker said, as long as there is traffic and stop lights to take advantage of the electric motor and not run on the gas engine only (and Dallas has a lot of stop-n-go traffic!)

Between highway and city, the SUV is avergaing 29.4 MPG, according to the computer.

[yavoon]

You also get a tax credit (not an adjustment to your income) when you buy or lease a Hybrid, so next year I'll get to take a big time tax break, around $2600. The SUV we got does get pretty darn good mileage in town, really close to what the sticker said, as long as there is traffic and stop lights to take advantage of the electric motor and not run on the gas engine only (and Dallas has a lot of stop-n-go traffic!)

Between highway and city, the SUV is avergaing 29.4 MPG, according to the computer.

Break-even point
Gasoline would have to reach these per-gallon prices or drivers would have to log this mileage each year at current prices for the cost of hybrids to break even with non-hybrids.
Vehicle
Fuel
Mileage
Ford Escape
$5.60
37,000
Honda Accord
$9.20
60,000
Honda Civic
$9.60
63,000

gas isnt quite that high yet. and for the mileage remember that the hybrids ONLY real advantage is under regular braking.

[REB]

Ride to work in a Vespa and be done with it for gods sake.............Chiks dig it

1-2-3 :Broncos:!!!!!!! :charge:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Send the BIG OIL COMPANIES a message

Don't forget to send a message at the polls also...

The Only Campaign Ad The Democrats Should Need

http://www.bartcop.com/tom-gasprices3.gif

http://www.bartcop.com/tom-gasprices1.gif

[broncocalijohn]

Break-even point
Gasoline would have to reach these per-gallon prices or drivers would have to log this mileage each year at current prices for the cost of hybrids to break even with non-hybrids.
Vehicle
Fuel
Mileage
Ford Escape
$5.60
37,000
Honda Accord
$9.20
60,000
Honda Civic
$9.60
63,000

gas isnt quite that high yet. and for the mileage remember that the hybrids ONLY real advantage is under regular braking.

In California we also get to ride the Car pool lane. You cant put a price on that. Also, hybrids are ideal for city driving. If you are on the highway, you get the HOV lane. Perfect both ways. I drive over 40k a year so it helps me big time.

[hades]

Break-even point
Gasoline would have to reach these per-gallon prices or drivers would have to log this mileage each year at current prices for the cost of hybrids to break even with non-hybrids.
Vehicle
Fuel
Mileage
Ford Escape
$5.60
37,000
Honda Accord
$9.20
60,000
Honda Civic
$9.60
63,000

gas isnt quite that high yet. and for the mileage remember that the hybrids ONLY real advantage is under regular braking.


The advantage is not only under braking, it is in stop and go traffic, which Dallas has a lot of. You can sit at some stop lights for 4 or 5 minutes in rush hour traffic, and the gas engine seldom, if ever kicks on during that stop.

I work 11 miles from my house, sometimes it takes me 45 minutes to get home.

What year were those figures put out for? Did they test any 2006 models, like the Lexus RX400H?

I can drive from the main street in our neighborhood to our house and never have the gas engine kick in, that's over 3/4 of a mile, as long as I stay at 25 MPH or less (whick is OK for a neighborhood).

I'm going to re-calculate my taxes for last year with this years tax credit for the Hybrid and see how much of a difference it would gain me.

I do agree. Hybrids are not efficient enough to just go out and purchase to save gas money, but on a lease the price is really the same as a non Hybrid vehicle in some cases. The Lexus we got is loaded with options, and compared to the RX350 (2007 base model) the lease is $15.00 per month more. Had we done a purchase, the RX350 would have been much cheaper, since the final price was around 11.5K less.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Hybrids are worth it just in the reduced emissions alone. Congress will be extending tax breaks on them too.

[Tredici]

And up shows errant form the back hills of Carolina with his standard liberal bashing BS.

For your info errant, people from all political parties (and even some with no party affiliation) complain about high gas prices.

C'mon now Beerslug. People mention the $5 - $6 a liter fuel in the European and Asian nations. Look at the cars they drive. Minis. Smartcar. The rest of the world must be stuffed full of SUV Hating Liberals....

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Hybrids are worth it just in the reduced emissions alone. Congress will be extending tax breaks on them too.

But what happens to all of the lead, heavy metals and other toxins in those batteries when they wear out?

[hades]

But what happens to all of the lead, heavy metals and other toxins in those batteries when they wear out?


Pour gasoline on them, light a match and step back and turn them into ashes.
Or recycle them and use it as a base for paint.;)

[RaiderH8r]

And up shows errant form the back hills of Carolina with his standard liberal bashing BS.

For your info errant, people from all political parties (and even some with no party affiliation) complain about high gas prices.
His point is still valid. Dick Durbin yesterday, on the Senate floor, in the same ten minute speech, railed against high gas prices and closed by saying more needed to be done to encourage conservation and use of hybrids. Is he so stupid as not to realize the fastest way to accomplish the later is by the former? Of course not. Americans don't want reality, they want cheap gas, SUVs, no domestic production, and no foreign imports. These things are not compatable. The SUV makes you feel good, cheap gas affords you the luxury to drive the SUV everywhere, the earth first bumper sticker and votes make you feel that you've "done something" to protect the earth, and screaming about dependency on foreign crude makes you feel like you've "done something" to fight terror. A saying about having cake and eating it too comes to mind. And nobody has the brass balls to tell Americans high gas prices are their fault precisely for the aforementioned reasons. People don't have a right to cheap gas. They have the freedom to choose how they want to adjust for that or maintain their current state of affairs.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

But what happens to all of the lead, heavy metals and other toxins in those batteries when they wear out?
Can't batteries be recycled?

As the technology advances batteries will too I'd imagine. Maybe lithium-ion batteries.