Pat Kirwan: Interesting tid-bit.

[Requiem]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9378806

15. Denver: Santonio Holmes, WR, Ohio State
The Broncos can trade Ashley Lelie right after this pick

Other picks are DeAngelo Williams and Dominique Byrd. Not bad at all if you're drooling for an offensive draft, but I'd ather Kiwanuka at #22.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Doesn't reveal much since everyone has thought Ashley's gone for about 2 months now.

But he's right about when a trade would go down, just like BW was when he said the same thing this morning.

[Requiem]

Oh, I know it's not anything new that we've been hearing, but Kirwan is a pretty respectable guy -- I just find it interesting that it's finally getting out there. I hadn't seen a explanation like that before.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Still doesn't fill the WR hole on this team though, you're just replacing Lelie with Holmes and still need someone to groom to take Rod's place.

[Requiem]

Exactly, which is why I don't see us trading Lelie. Who knows though.

[Barry Ramey]

Well, my guess is they are counting on Watts to step up and get something from Terrell. Again, Lelie is a free agent next year, so unless serious about re-signing him, why let him go for nothing if can get a pick for him?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

why let him go for nothing if can get a pick for him?

Because he's a known quantity and still contributes. There's no need to trade him simply for the sake of trading him, even if he's going to walk after next season.

A lot like Oakland and Barry Zito this season. He'll most likely walk at the end of the season, but do they trade him at the deadline just to get something in return and possibly blow their chance at the playoffs?

[Requiem]

I think we keep Lelie and he walks later on just because he's a guy who can help us get to where we want to be. Who knows, maybe with a change of heart, he'll stay here.

[Ballhawk]

I think we keep Lelie and he walks later on just because he's a guy who can help us get to where we want to be. Who knows, maybe with a change of heart, he'll stay here.

When was the last time we used the franchise tag? I know we threaten to with Wilson, but that is the last time I can remember it coming up. Lets say Lelie has a good year 1200 yards or so, I think many teams would give up a first to get him. So even without a trade it is not like we cant get something for him.

[Barry Ramey]

Contributes? Sure, but why is it constantly said the Broncos need playmakers on offense? Because other than catching a long pass here and there, what is Lelie doing? When is the last time Lelie caught a short pass and turned it into a big gain? To this point, he has been a major disappointment considering he was a 1st round pick. And the topper is he has decided to do his own workouts in Arizona instead of with the team.

[youcandoit1687]

let them do workouts on their own, he has already built team chemistry im sure. some guys prefer to work out on their own and the team knows that.

i dont know what u want when we drafted him. we knew he wouldnt be a possession receiver(which is why we have rod and hopefully CJ soon enuf). we just were hoping for a deep threat. and he has provided that most of the time. it was only his third year with us and most receivers and QBs have clicked best with us during the third year or after(jake,griese,rod,ed,etc.)so he is a little slow. the reason we draft a WR is to replace rod, not replace lelie. if we do it to replace lelie then we need another one to replace rod.CJ can provide a deep enuf threat as well as be a possession receiver. i see him as a mini TO. 6 1 instead of 6 3 but he has better hands and way better attitude(that should go without saying).CJ could play the role that rod currently plays right now because rod really is a poor mans TO. he can be a possession receiver most of the time but keep the D honest with the occasional deep ball.

[Broncojef]

If we are in need of a possession receiver then I'd rather grab a Hagan or a guy who served that role in college. The only way I'd get rid of Lelie is if we also get a big play WR such as Javon Walker.

[SoCalBronco]

Wow. Holmes and Byrd. Maybe I shouldnt bother waking up on draft day.

[WABronco]

If we are in need of a possession receiver then I'd rather grab a Hagan or a guy who served that role in college. The only way I'd get rid of Lelie is if we also get a big play WR such as Javon Walker.

Santonio Holmes is a great playmaker in his own right...probably more so than Ash is in terms of running after the catch.

So does everyone think that it's pretty much a given that if Ash is traded, it's on draft day for picks and/or Walker?

[Barry Ramey]

If I remember right, Portis also decided to work on his own and the team wasn't happy with that. Notice he's not with the team anymore.

I do believe the team still has hopes for Watts, since was drafted in the 2nd round, and they do believe he has talent. Jackson to replace Rod, Watts or maybe even Walker to replace Leslie. I just don't think they are too eager to re-sign Lelie for big money, considering to this point, he hhas not shown to be a big factor in many games.

[Kaylore]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/thenetwork/bios/images/kirwan.jpg
"I'm Pat Kirwan. I'm going to do my best to make sure that the top five picks in the draft are all from USC and if they aren't I'll point out how stupid every team that passes on them is. There is USC players and then the other guys. I'm a reputable journalist."

[The Neck]

A "Hi I'm Troy McClure" spoof would have been funnier there

[broncohaven]

If we go WR in rnd1 I would much rather Holmes than Jackson. Holmes actually made plays in college, and reminds me of Marvin Harrison. Jackson is a wrokout warrior that had a subdued college career a best.

[-Slap-]

Pat Kirwan worked as a personnel man for the Jets from 1989 to 1996, and in that span, the team never had a winning record.

1996 NFL New York Jets 1-15-0
1995 NFL New York Jets 3-13-0
1994 NFL New York Jets 6-10-0
1993 NFL New York Jets 8-8-0
1992 NFL New York Jets 4-12-0
1991 NFL New York Jets 8-8-0
1990 NFL New York Jets 6-10-0
1989 NFL New York Jets 4-12-0

[BroncoInferno]

Still doesn't fill the WR hole on this team though, you're just replacing Lelie with Holmes and still need someone to groom to take Rod's place.

I just can't see them trading Lelie unless it's for Walker. You are theoretically leaving yourself a massive hole behind Rod because we all know rookie WRs generally struggle in their first season. If they make a trade for Ash not involving Walker, that will say a lot to me on how they feel about Terrell.

[youcandoit1687]

If we go WR in rnd1 I would much rather Holmes than Jackson. Holmes actually made plays in college, and reminds me of Marvin Harrison. Jackson is a wrokout warrior that had a subdued college career a best.

jackson had 88 catches, say what you want about the ypc, thats still 900 yards or 88 first downs. he also proved that he can be a deep threat averaging 22ypc his soph season on 36 catches in zook's system

[brncs_fan]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/thenetwork/bios/images/kirwan.jpg

He kind of looks like Tom Sellick

[Ballhawk]

I just can't see them trading Lelie unless it's for Walker. You are theoretically leaving yourself a massive hole behind Rod because we all know rookie WRs generally struggle in their first season. If they make a trade for Ash not involving Walker, that will say a lot to me on how they feel about Terrell.
Ya but Shanny sees Ashley as a #2 WR and I doubt he feels comfortable with Ash taking over for Rod later on. So if you are Shanny how attached are you to a #2 WR? If Plummer threw a better deep ball, Ash would have had back to back 1200 yards seasons, I think some GMs know this by watching film. If a GM values Lelie more than Shanny does then Shanny will pull the string on a deal because he will perceive it as a good deal for the Broncos.

Also, we do have three other WRs that do not need to replace Rod but replace the production Lelie gives us. This is where I think Shanny believes Terell can do the job, not as a #1 guy (get rid of that pressure) but as a complimentary 2nd or 3rd option. So where we see a big hole, Shanny may see a need to get 50 catches from a guy or two.

[youcandoit1687]

or he may draft somebody(CJ!CJ!CJ!). thats what ive been saying is that i think the broncos undervalue ashley and that he is prob a better fit for some other NFL teams who need a 1 and/or 2 receiver

[Mediator12]

Pat Kirwan worked as a personnel man for the Jets from 1989 to 1996, and in that span, the team never had a winning record.

1996 NFL New York Jets 1-15-0
1995 NFL New York Jets 3-13-0
1994 NFL New York Jets 6-10-0
1993 NFL New York Jets 8-8-0 Pete Carroll fired for getting the team to .500 :rofl:
1992 NFL New York Jets 4-12-0
1991 NFL New York Jets 8-8-0
1990 NFL New York Jets 6-10-0
1989 NFL New York Jets 4-12-0

I think he is a much better journalist than he ever was a football administrator. That being said, there were some really Poor Coaches in that era. Rich Kotite AAAAAARGHHH! :rofl:

[bendog]

So Lelie walks in 2007, catches 75 for 1200 yds, what compensation does Den get?

[Rascal]

So Lelie walks in 2007, catches 75 for 1200 yds, what compensation does Den get?

I believe compensation depends more on the amount of money they signed for then their production but I'm probably wrong about that.

[bendog]

I dunno. The last couple of years, I have sort of been able to predict the positions (not necessarily the exact players) that Den slotted in spec rounds. I'm thinking specifically the year they wanted Clayton but got DJ and the corner picks last year. By looking at a chart with predicted round value in numbers of guys at each position, shanny seems to shy away from positions that are thin in a round. Bad year for WRs in the no 1 and maybe top 3 rounds. Lots of no 4 and 5 rd projects.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I believe compensation depends more on the amount of money they signed for then their production but I'm probably wrong about that.

Pretty much. On-field play might at best bump up a borderline player into the higher round.