Broncos Draft "Situation Critical"

[wolf754life]

Its that time of year, time for me to put out my draft hopes and hope someone at Dove valley reads this, (lol, just kidding) I didn't quite see 3 corners and Maurice last year.

We have to go WR at 15. Everyone knows why, I like the Jackson kid, he is an athlete, very underrated hands, he will be a solid pro for a long time.

At 22, this is where the Broncos go off the Map and either take Manny Lawson there, a slight reach, or trade down into the early second to take him. Lawson is a hot commodity at this point, he is climbing up draft boards everywhere, and if the broncos want some elite young talent with upside when it comes to a pure SPEED rusher, it has to be lawson, hali, kiwi from boston college, the other ends at that point simply don't have the upside. Lawson will be a nickel and dime pass rusher initially, then move into the lineup next year after he bulks up. The kid is 6'5 3/8, 241 lbs, and runs a 4.34 forty. He will be 260 by camp, and play between 260 to 270 his whole career.

In the second round it will be time to address either the tight end, running back, or free safety position. My bet is on the tight end, all reports keep talking about Klopenstein from CU, but I think the broncos have their eyes on someone else. The problem here is that there is going to be a major run in the second round at TE. Think about it, Mercedes Lewis, Leonard Pope, Anthony Fasano, Dominique Byrd, David Thomas and the before mentioned Klopenstein. This is why Trading out of the first to mid second is a huge consideration, to get the tight end they want. If they don't trade down the broncos will be hoping the run on tight ends isn't as long and as deep as forcasted! They will take the the one they want, if not then they will look at RB.

As for runningback the guy the broncos are looking at in the 2nd is obviously unknown, but if Ryan Calhoun from Wisconsin was there in the second they would be hard pressed not to add him to the fold at RB. Calhoun recently ran 4.40 at his personal workout, a small,5'9, bulky back, he would be a great fit, slashing through our zone scheme.

In the Third I really like Pat Watkins, S of Florida State, he is exactly the type of big, fast, rangy, ballhawking safety that can help immediately on special teams and be a starter by mid year, replacing Fergy. Watkins, 6'5, 212 lbs, runs 4.42 and thats moving when you are 6'5, he would also give the team someone to match up with tall recievers inside the redzone.

So to recap, here are my picks for the broncos
PK (ovr)
1a) 15 Chad Jackson WR Florida
1b) 22 Hoping to trade out for an extra second or third rounder this year, but if no trade then, Manny Lawson, DE/LB North Carolina State
2a) 61 Dominique Byrd, TE USC
3a) 93 Pat Watkins S, Florida State
4a) 119 Greg Eslinger, C, Minnessotta
4b) 126 Mike Bell RB, Arizona State
4c) 130 Kellen Clemens, QB, Oregon
5a) 161 Kedric Golston, DT, Georgia
6a) 198 Jeromey Clary OT, Kansas State

In the fourth its got to be value, obviously again at TE, RB, OL, WR or S and possibly a young qb.

The guys for me at that point are two Running backs, Mike Bell of Arizona State and Jerious Norwood of Ole Miss, Greg Eslinger, OL, C, Lombardi Winner from Minnesotta.

Kellen Clemens would give us a great young backup to groom for years, maybe even one day compete for a starting spot, the broncos have neglected quarterback far to long, its time to add some young talent here.

Greg Eslinger is a tough, overachieving, small lineman, a technician in the mold of a ben hamilton, tom nalen. 6'3, 290lbs. The lombardi winner should be available early in the 4th, the broncos would be foolish not to add him to the OL mix. He will give them depth at G and Center. A starter in one to two years, replacing Carlisle, or after Nalen retires, putting him at Center or Gaurd. A critical draft choice for sure!

Many on this board have talked about Mike Bell from the Sun Devils, with good reason, the comparisons are obvious. Bell has great size, 6, 221 lbs, mid 4.5 speed, 221 lbs, solid in all areas, this is the type of back the broncos buy low and sell high! A solid choice for the backfield.

In the later part of the Draft the broncos need to seriously consider adding two solid backup types to bolster both the offensive and defensive lines. Golston is an underachieving physical marvel that could develop from Georgia and Clarey is a solid backup type for the OL.

This is a critcal draft for the Broncos, if this goes poorly Shanny may look back at this draft as his beginning of the end. The broncos will pick safer this year and not gamble as much. In the end they must look hard at addding young fresh talent to the Offensive Side of the Ball and addressing some key positions in terms of depth!

This is the most CRITICAL draft for the donkeys in years!
Go get'em Shanny and Ted:thumbs:

[SoCalBronco]

1a) 15 Chad Jackson WR Florida
I hate this.

1b) 22 Hoping to trade out for an extra second or third rounder this year, but if no trade then, Manny Lawson, DE/LB North Carolina State
I also would like to trade down and pick up some picks this year. No on Lawson at 22.

2a) 61 Dominique Byrd, TE USC
I hate this.
3a) 93 Pat Watkins S, Florida State
Solid.
4a) 119 Greg Eslinger, C, Minnessotta
Dont think he will last till the late 4th. In most years, I would like to go for a perfect system fit like him, but I think Myers or Hamilton will slide over when Nalen retires. Nails has another couple seasons left in him.
4b) 126 Mike Bell RB, Arizona State
Dont like this either. Ive heard from a great source on this board that he is very soft and doesnt work hard either. Being a Broncos fan is nice and all, but still, nope.
4c) 130 Kellen Clemens, QB, Oregon
This would be solid, although I would prefer Gradkowski if he was still there. This is still good though.
5a) 161 Kedric Golston, DT, Georgia
I like the kid, although he isnt a system fit. He would be a better 3-4 DE.
6a) 198 Jeromey Clary OT, Kansas State
He ran a good 40, dont know much else about him. If we want a good project OT on Day 2, Guy Whimper would be a good idea.

[Needa Pass Rush]

What 3rd? Doesn't Atlanta own our 3rd?

[wolf754life]

I don't think so, http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/team?team=den&draftyear=2006&action=login&appRedirect=http%3A%2F%2Finsider.espn.go.com%2Fnfl draft%2Fdraft%2Ftracker%2Fteam%3Fteam%3Dden%26draf tyear%3D2006

[SoCalBronco]

I don't think so, http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/team?team=den&draftyear=2006&action=login&appRedirect=http%3A%2F%2Finsider.espn.go.com%2Fnfl draft%2Fdraft%2Ftracker%2Fteam%3Fteam%3Dden%26draf tyear%3D2006

ESPN Insider is wrong.

[SoCalBronco]

Now that Nate Webster has backed away from being a Bronco, we need a backup LB prospect on Day 2.

Kevin Simon, come on down. Easily the most underrated LB in this draft (along with AJ Nicholson). Hopefully he is there in the 5th, although thats highly unlikely. We did talk to him and im sure DJ put in a good word for him too with the coaches. If it werent for bad luck with injuries and the fact that he is 5'11, he'd be a first round pick.

[wolf754life]

Simon would also help on Special Teams Immediately, great speed and very tough! Keith Burns is not going to be around much longer.

[Popps]

Dream scenario: Trade up for Williams.

Second Best:
#15 Tamba Hali ... Looks like the second best DE in the draft.
We may even be able to bump down a few spots and get an extra pick.

#22 Trade down to the top of the 2nd, draft Mangold. Use the extra picks to get us back into the third round of a deep draft.

We'd have a good DE prospect, the best C prospect in years to keep up our tradition of high quality interior line play... and more picks for depth.

What we'll probably really do:

#15 Joe Fabietz CB, North Valley Automotive Technical College

#22 Will Bustforsure WR, Bakersfield Culinary Academy

[Requiem]

Meh, there are better scenarios. Decent draft.

[wolf754life]

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=338&storyID=5411

I was wrong, my bad, not having that 3rd hurts, but it was still a great trade!

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Why would this be a critical draft for the Broncos? They were 13-3 last year and will be just as good this year because they re-signed all the guys they wanted to. They should be great for years to come, even if they don't have a great draft this year.

[SoCalBronco]

Dream scenario: Trade up for Williams.

Second Best:
#15 Tamba Hali ... Looks like the second best DE in the draft.
We may even be able to bump down a few spots and get an extra pick.

#22 Trade down to the top of the 2nd, draft Mangold. Use the extra picks to get us back into the third round of a deep draft.

We'd have a good DE prospect, the best C prospect in years to keep up our tradition of high quality interior line play... and more picks for depth.

What we'll probably really do:

#15 Joe Fabietz CB, North Valley Automotive Technical College

#22 Will Bustforsure WR, Bakersfield Culinary Academy

15 for Hali is too high. He is falling and there is virtually a 100 percent likelihood he will be there at 22. Probably will last into the 30s I bet.

I like Mangold, but Nails will play another two seasons and the club likes Myers. C is a luxury in this draft. If we went DE at 15 somehow, TE, WR, RB, DT, S, OG are all far more pressing than C.

[Requiem]

Haha, nobody ****ing agrees on what we should do.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Comments from this peanut gallery:

1a) 15 Chad Jackson WR Florida

Not sold on Jackson at all. When all is said and done there will be guys in the later rounds who turn out better.

1b) 22 Hoping to trade out for an extra second or third rounder this year, but if no trade then, Manny Lawson, DE/LB North Carolina State

Lawson will have to play 3-4 LB and I am afraid he is a Malamua combine wonder.

2a) 61 Dominique Byrd, TE USC

Maybe if he is there in the 4th and they have not piced a TE earlier

3a) 93 Pat Watkins S, Florida State

No third round pick

4a) 119 Greg Eslinger, C, Minnessotta

Center is the deepest position on the team with Nalen, Hamilton and Myers. Everybody loves him because he "fits the Bronco profile" but they dont need him.

4b) 126 Mike Bell RB, Arizona State

See SoCal's answer

4c) 130 Kellen Clemens, QB, Oregon

I really like Clemens, but because of his injury, I don't think he will go this high. If Broncs pick QB this early is should be Pinegar or Jacobs.

5a) 161 Kedric Golston, DT, Georgia

Might be OK, but would need time on PS. I think there might be better picks available

6a) 198 Jeromey Clary OT, Kansas State

Hard to tell, but with the depth in this draft, he could fall to be a FA

Of course I have no more credibility thatn anyone else on the Mane or any of the so called draft experts. We will all be wrong. :)

[Requiem]

Why would this be a critical draft for the Broncos?

How could you even say that? Every draft is critical. Denver isn't a good drafting team. If you don't build on a team in FA, you have to in the draft.

[SoCalBronco]

How could you even say that? Every draft is critical. Denver isn't a good drafting team. If you don't build on a team in FA, you have to in the draft.

Herc agrees with you. He is just being sarcastic.

[Requiem]

Pinegar that early Big Guy? Yuck.

[Requiem]

Herc agrees with you. He is just being sarcastic.

Sorry, late night at the casino -- too tired and stupid right now to tell.

[wolf754life]

Its critical because look at our Offense on paper. Very Old, Very Little Depth, Very Limited In General. The right players must be brought in for the next generation of our offense.

QB: Plummer, 31 years old, maybe 3 or 4 yrs from him if all goes well, if not then we look free agency. Van Pelt and Mauck are not ever going to be special starters.

RB: Bell, many questions his intangibles, blocking, toughness, hands, a mild bust at this point. Dayne, nice back, but average in terms of age and ability. This is still the deepest position for the offense, lots of options, but not one standout.

WR: Rod Smith, then everyone else. The picture gets even uglier if you let Lelie walk! David Terrell is not or at least to this point has not been productive, Watts still has upside, Devoe and Adams are classic 4th and 5th recievers, nothing agains Charlie and Todd but if Rod Smith gets hurt our offense is a joke. If the broncos add another Marcus Nash, Travis McGriff, Adrian Madise type then this offense will continue to be limitied. Its critical to add talent to our WR core and do it soon, if not we will have to break the bank in free agency to add marginal talent.

Tight End: Wow, we don't have much here, Stephen Alexander, no thanks, what a band aid, very bad option for the future. Wesley Duke may be our savior, its big for him to continue to grow. A banged up Carswell, some free agents like landon trusty and nate jackson is pillowy soft

Offensive Line: Getting very expensive and old, Lepsis just got paid, Nalen too, Hamilton last year. George Foster continues to hurt us against good pass rushers. Carlisle is average. Depth is solid with Myers and Cornell Green but we could use a young swing man. PJ Alexander is coming of knee surgery, not sure how that will respond

The broncos offense is marginal in talent, with great coaching, ie: Scheme we are able to get the job done, but its time to give shanny more than Ramen Noodles in the cupboard.

And its critical to add a TRUE SPEED RUSH element to our defense, we can't get any pressure, we can't even threaten teams with a speed rush presence! Its Critical to add that element, thats why reaching for Lawson is a must!

THE WINDOW IS CLOSING, NOT GROWING!!!!

[Popps]

15 for Hali is too high. He is falling and there is virtually a 100 percent likelihood he will be there at 22. Probably will last into the 30s I bet.

I like Mangold, but Nails will play another two seasons and the club likes Myers. C is a luxury in this draft. If we went DE at 15 somehow, TE, WR, RB, DT, S, OG are all far more pressing than C.

I wonder how Nalen is going to hold up over two more seasons. We could start working Mangold into the lineup by the end of this season, I'd think.
He's a great athlete and built perfectly for our system. We'd be set for years. I agree that it might not be the most pressing need, but it's a chance to take a guy who's almost a sure thing, and the highest rated at his position. We're not going to get that at WR, RB or TE without trading up.

I wonder why Hali is falling, but that's probably good news. From what I read, he's the 2nd best complete DE prospect in the draft. He was very productive in college.

[Popps]

THE WINDOW IS CLOSING, NOT GROWING!!!!

Great post. But, you'll have a hard time selling that around here. A large percentage of the people think we're a "talented, young team" that will be on top for years. Of course, there's no rational basis for that... and a simple look at our progress over the past 5 years tells you that we're at the TOP of a pendulum swing, but.. facts be damned.

[wolf754life]

Hali isn't the biggest or fastest pass rusher but has a non-stop motor. Very safe pick, but thats not what you draft in the middle of round 1

[Requiem]

Great post. But, you'll have a hard time selling that around here. A large percentage of the people think we're a "talented, young team" that will be on top for years. Of course, there's no rational basis for that... and a simple look at our progress over the past 5 years tells you that we're at the TOP of a pendulum swing, but.. facts be damned.

Depends on what you call old. I don't call 28-29 years old. Our best shot is now, but looking at our roster, we have some very solid young talent.

[epicSocialism4tw]

These things are certainties:
Denver will draft a RB, WR, QB, C/G, TE, and a DT

Where they go in the draft is anybody's guess

[HEAV]

Funny how RB is missing from this mock draft.....................

I'm saying it for the last time. RB round one people.

[Popps]

Depends on what you call old. I don't call 28-29 years old. Our best shot is now, but looking at our roster, we have some very solid young talent.

Doesn't mean we'll have NO talent in two years... just that we have a balance of talented older and younger players that simply isn't going to be there in a couple of years.

As for young players, I'd say we have a few good prospects... and a few "young enough" guys like Wilson, Bailey and Plummer to stay competitive.

Still, it's a pretty logical concept to think that some years... teams are closer to Superbowl wins than others. Just my opinion, but I think we're right near the top of that proverbial pendulum swing. Conversely, you wouldn't have heard me saying that the prior 5 years, so it's not like I say this every year.
I think it's a time we should be aggressive... being as close as we are. Not thrilled with how the off-season has gone, thus far.

[wolf754life]

ditto popps

[baja]

Doesn't mean we'll have NO talent in two years... just that we have a balance of talented older and younger players that simply isn't going to be there in a couple of years.

As for young players, I'd say we have a few good prospects... and a few "young enough" guys like Wilson, Bailey and Plummer to stay competitive.

Still, it's a pretty logical concept to think that some years... teams are closer to Superbowl wins than others. Just my opinion, but I think we're right near the top of that proverbial pendulum swing. Conversely, you wouldn't have heard me saying that the prior 5 years, so it's not like I say this every year.
I think it's a time we should be aggressive... being as close as we are. Not thrilled with how the off-season has gone, thus far.

Doesn't overpaying for talented but risky free agents (Abraham, TO) reverse the fortunes of a team quicker than aging or a mediocre draft.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Doesn't overpaying for talented but risky free agents (Abraham, TO) reverse the fortunes of a team quicker than aging or a mediocre draft.

Better to take a risk at making the team better rather than pussing out by lying and saying the cap room isn't there because you're afraid to get burned.

[Requiem]

Funny how RB is missing from this mock draft.....................

I'm saying it for the last time. RB round one people.

How much do you want to bet? :~ohyah!:

[baja]

Better to take a risk at making the team better rather than pussing out by lying and saying the cap room isn't there because you're afraid to get burned.

It's all relative. Would you like to be a Skins fan rolling all the dice into one season with the promise of cap hell for several seasons. They will have to blow it up ala Tenn. or SF of years ago. Looks like Dallas ownership didn't learn a thing either although Big Tuna gets it though, betcha this is his last season.

[Popps]

Doesn't overpaying for talented but risky free agents (Abraham, TO) reverse the fortunes of a team quicker than aging or a mediocre draft.

Maybe, but there's a difference between Terrell Owens and John Abraham, in my book. Abraham was a healthy, dominant player at his position last year. T.O. is a powder-keg.

Plus, I think about the last couple of guys like Berry we let walk away because we didn't want to "overpay." Anyone else here like to see him back on our line? $5 mil a season doesn't seem like so much, now.

I'm not saying there isn't a balance. I'm just saying we appear to be playing things awfully close to the belt. I just wonder if our staff/front office thinks we're a bit better than we really are. We were CLOSE to a SB game, but still had glaring holes (D-line) that were exposed in that Pitt game.

We needed to come out and aggressively pursue options to fill those holes. So far, we haven't.

[Clockwork Orange]

I'll take this first day.

1a. LenDale White, RB USC
1b. Tamba Hali, DE Penn State
2. Claude Wroten, DT LSU

I wouldn't be opposed to trading down from 22 if it meant an extra first next year and a 3rd this year.

[Requiem]

LenDale at fifteen, even with his torn hammy? I don't know about that.

[Clockwork Orange]

LenDale at fifteen, even with his torn hammy? I don't know about that.

He'll be healed long before training camp starts. He'll also have something to prove.

[SoCalBronco]

He'll be healed long before training camp starts. He'll also have something to prove.

I dont think he will miss even a single minicamp if we get him. Denver is continuing the practice started last summer to postpone the usual post-draft minicamps and instead have them much closer to training camp as to almost create one continuous camp.

[Clockwork Orange]

I dont think he will miss even a single minicamp if we get him. Denver is continuing the practice started last summer to postpone the usual post-draft minicamps and instead have them much closer to training camp as to almost create one continuous camp.

Exactly. The reports are that he'll be ready to go by sometime in May, so I don't see this injury as anything to be all that concerned about.

[Requiem]

It's a little concerning, but I've never been too high on a back in the first. Yeah, I'll welcome LenDale, but I feel we have bigger needs than running back.

[wabbit]

Why would this be a critical draft for the Broncos? They were 13-3 last year and will be just as good this year because they re-signed all the guys they wanted to. They should be great for years to come, even if they don't have a great draft this year.


Now see, I don't understand this approach.

I do believe this is, perhaps, the most critical draft since Elway retired...and for a lot of reasons.

On the surface, the structure is sturdy, but underneath...as in depth...there is reason for real concern.

Denver has outright sucked at drafting need, and has only marginal success in drafting depth. That, despite the wild successes of the Terrell Davis, Tom Nalen & Matt Lepsis (I know, I know, he was a college FA).

Davis, Pryce, Wilson, DJ Williams & George Foster are about the only impact players we've drafted in a DECADE.

I guess you could count Griese among the group if everyone here wasn't so anal about the guy.

Yes, the relative and admirable successes of Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Asheley Lelie, Jep Putzier...on & on...are nice & touchy feely, but you cannot build a SB roster on cast-offs & second tier FAs.

Yes, the Broncos came awfully close last year, but the underlysing structure needs some serious re-building...right NOW.

The O-line is absolutely desperate for depth, WR's are all a wish & a prayer as are the RBs, the QB is a wild card, while his back-up HAS to frighten anyone wondering what might happen if Plummer really does go down for any length of time.

The D-line are cast-offs...playing well, but that's not the point. The LBs are tops and perhaps the best representative of any draft success we've had.

Our Safeties are marginal...yes, Lynch is terrific, but the guy couldn't cover my daughter at this stage.

CB's...great!!...lucky, after all these years...Middlebrooks, O'Neil...hell, Shanahan finally had to break the bank to fill the position.

Yes, this is a critical draft...make that crucial, red light...beep, beep baby the end is near...the team HAS to hit, and hit BIG on every early pick and absolutely, positively MUST develop some depth we didn't pick up hitchhiking on I-25...c'mon.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Hopefully the top 3 picks:
1a)Bunkley/Ngata
1b)DeAngelo Williams
2) Klophfenstein

I will jump for joy if it looks like that.

[wolf754life]

YES! Thats what I am talking about Wabbit, its CRITICAL!

[Requiem]

Ah Jesus Christ to all this DeAngelo Williams stuff.

[wolf754life]

requiem, you don't like DeAngelo? How do you rank these backs, Maroney, White, Williams?

[Requiem]

I do like DeAngelo, but I'm not one of those guys who has a hard-on for the Broncos needing a back in the first. History shows they don't. We'd be fine with drafting a guy somewhere else in the draft. I think we'll be okay with what we have. I think drafting a back that early could discourage who we have, especially Tatum.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Denver has outright sucked at drafting need, and has only marginal success in drafting depth. That, despite the wild successes of the Terrell Davis, Tom Nalen & Matt Lepsis (I know, I know, he was a college FA).
Davis, Pryce, Wilson, DJ Williams & George Foster are about the only impact players we've drafted in a DECADE.
I guess you could count Griese among the group if everyone here wasn't so anal about the guy.
Yes, the relative and admirable successes of Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Asheley Lelie, Jep Putzier...on & on...are nice & touchy feely, but you cannot build a SB roster on cast-offs & second tier FAs.


You can also include Clinton Portis, Reggie Hayward, Bert Berry, Darrent Williams and Domonique Foxworth in the "impact" category.

Darrent was a major impact player for us last season, and Foxworth contributed as well. The other guys are playing for other teams, but that doesnt mean that they werent drafted by Denver. Portis landed us the best CB of this era. Does that count?

[Wes Mantooth]

Clemens is tough, but does not throw the ball well. I do not like that one at all. Harrington would be a better Duck QB by far than Clemens.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think drafting a back that early could discourage who we have, especially Tatum.

If he's discouraged enough to perform less capably than he's been able to manage so far, he needs to find a part time job somewhere else anyhoo because Shanny doesnt like this two-back nonsense.

The offense needs an impact player. Anderson and Gary were not impact players. TD was an impact player. Drafting TD late was a steal. The guy was injury prone in college and our scouts were on top of it. You cannot depend on drafting impact players in the sixth round. It's unreasonable.

Denver will take at least one back on the first day. Likely in the first or second rounds.

[Clockwork Orange]

I think drafting a back that early could discourage who we have, especially Tatum.

Boo f'n hoo, poor Tatum. If he'd ever shown that he was capable of being the #1 RB and taking the bulk of the carries, a 1st round RB wouldn't even be a consideration.

Personally, I'm tired of plugging in average RB's and getting decent production out of them when we could plug in a talented back and get All-Pro production.

[Requiem]

Tatum Bell was an impact player for us last year and can be an every down back for the Broncos.

[Requiem]

Boo f'n hoo, poor Tatum. If he'd ever shown that he was capable of being the #1 RB and taking the bulk of the carries, a 1st round RB wouldn't even be a consideration.

Personally, I'm tired of plugging in average RB's and getting decent production out of them when we could plug in a talented back and get All-Pro production.

His chance will be this year, and he has shown that he's more than capable.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Boo f'n hoo, poor Tatum. If he'd ever shown that he was capable of being the #1 RB and taking the bulk of the carries, a 1st round RB wouldn't even be a consideration.

Personally, I'm tired of plugging in average RB's and getting decent production out of them when we could plug in a talented back and get All-Pro production.

Hear, hear!

The offense needs impact players who can make plays when we need them. Tatum Bell isnt that player if he can only handle 18 carries.

[Clockwork Orange]

His chance will be this year, and he has shown that he's more than capable.

He has? All he's ever really shown is speed. He's certainly never shown the ability to be the #1 RB and take the bulk of the carries. His career high for carries in a game is 17, that doesn't quite strike me as someone who's shown that he has what it takes to be a #1 RB.

If he can't carry the load, he's a change of pace back and nothing more.

[Ballhawk]

Hear, hear!

The offense needs impact players who can make plays when we need them. Tatum Bell isnt that player if he can only handle 18 carries.

If Bell could just learn to catch the ball (is there a clinis we could enroll him and Watts in, maybe 2 for 1?)

Jake would be much better if he had a back he could dump the ball off to, that could make a guy miss and get 8-10 yards. Bell has dropped more wide open dumpoffs than I care to remember.

Maroney has that capability. What made Faulk so Faulking good was his ability to beat LBs in passing plays and get all purpose yardage. That is what we need.

[Requiem]

Do you honestly think with Mike Anderson here, he was ever going to see a bulk of the carries? Tatum can the the guy who can carry the rock, it's all on him to make it happen. He put up great production for a guy last year who barely carried the ball. I don't want Tatum to be discouraged. It sounds like he's determined and really wants that starting job. He has that kind of talent. He has the size. I think this year is his year.

The Broncos have drafted poorly, and they have a track record for letting the good talent they do draft go. (It's in another thread, feel free to read.) Who says drafting White, Williams or Maroney will mean they'll be the sure thing for us either?

Regardless of how bad people want the "every-down" back system here in Denver, I'll take the production out of the two-back any day. I don't care who is rushing.

Denver doesn't need a back in the first-round. If we get one, like I said, I'll welcome them -- but it's not that big of a need in comparison to other positions, such as WR, TE and DL.

[Requiem]

Maroney has that capability.

I'm calling bull**** on this. I've seen Maroney play in person and I've seen him in pre-game warm-ups. His hands are questionable at best, and he's not a good receiver out of the backfield. Bell isn't the best, but he's better than average.

[wabbit]

YES! Thats what I am talking about Wabbit, its CRITICAL!

The main reason Mike Shanahan has retained his position here is because the man is a titan game planner/innovator & often (not always) a brilliant game-day coach.

If an honest verdict were to be passed on his draft history, he would be judged 'lucky' at best...lucky his mind bending gaffs didn't completely undermine the on-field progression of his team.

I'm not down on Shanahan...with the draft being the notable exception.

The guy can hide more bad moves than an accountant with a Grand Cayman bank, but now...right now...the opportunity exists to fill a couple of gaping holes AND build real strength in depth...particularly with those multiple 4th rounders.

Cooper Carlisle is a stop-gap Guard at the very best, and that's being kind. His miserable & frequent lapses spilled over onto an injured George Foster & brought down the house on that kid...here on the Mane at any rate.

You can find real talent in the fourth round, where the best 'potential' O-linemen seem to be found.

I've read many posts here where people throw around those 4ths like so much draft fodder in the hopes of moving around to, perhaps, land that elite TE or DE.

..and you know what, you damn well may get your wish, because Mike Shanahan & Ted Sundquist make some of the most mind bending gaffs you will see in the NFL.

It's Shanahans' skill, staff & superior understanding of his personnel that mold this wild mosaic of talent into contenders every year.

Honestly, I've been waiting for the house of cards to fall, but every year it seems, he makes a dramatic move of one stripe or another, and bandages the wound.

No dramatic Bailey, 3CBs or Browncos this year though.

TO, Abraham were pipe dreams.

A shakey O-line, wistful WR corp, band-aid RBs & 'Weird Joe' OBs are reality.

[Ballhawk]

I'm calling bull**** on this. I've seen Maroney play in person and I've seen him in pre-game warm-ups. His hands are questionable at best, and he's not a good receiver out of the backfield. Bell isn't the best, but he's better than average.

That is true was thinking about Addai, who is a great receiver and blocker.

[Requiem]

Addai is a guy who split time in college with many other backs and never fully carried the load. If you guys don't like Bell, I don't see how you can like him either.

[Clockwork Orange]

Addai is a guy who split time in college with many other backs and never fully carried the load. If you guys don't like Bell, I don't see how you can like him either.

I don't think anyone "dislikes" Bell. I just have a hard time anointing him the #1 RB when he's never shown the capability to take the bulk of the carries.

And for the record, I'm not a big fan of the RBBC.

[Ballhawk]

Addai is a guy who split time in college with many other backs and never fully carried the load. If you guys don't like Bell, I don't see how you can like him either.

Addai had some previous injuies but has a solid overall game (much like a former Bulldog RB) and could be a steal at RB. Bell has proven he is a one trick pony.

[Popps]

I don't think anyone "dislikes" Bell. I just have a hard time anointing him the #1 RB when he's never shown the capability to take the bulk of the carries.

And for the record, I'm not a big fan of the RBBC.

I'm not either, though I think if you're running the ball 35+ times in a game, you can still give a guy "feature back" carries. Bell and Anderson had 2K yards between them.

I think Anderson is a big loss. Yet again, probably in the minority on that one... but I think his one-cut ability and vision in our system is under-rated. Just watch Bell and you'll see what I mean. Bell is more gifted, but doesn't have near the vision Anderson had. His YPC was very solid and he was big enough to punish defenses late in a game, especially if you kept him fresh.

I thought we had a very good running system last year. We just abandoned it when it counted.

[Requiem]

I'm not a huge fan of it as well, but it works. I think it actually works better than an every-down guy. Having two types of runners, with completely different styles worked to our advantages last year. It made for defenses to adjust, and when the defenses were worn down and tired from Anderson, in came Tatum and bam, there he goes.

I still don't like the "bulk of the carries" argument. We could have fed him the rock 25 times or so a game if we wanted to, but he didn't. With two years under his belt, I think he has enough experience and I hope he's gained the toughness to be that guy. I have faith in the kid.

If we could get a guy lke Davis, that'd be great, but chances are we won't. Like the saying says, "If it's not broke, don't fix it." Everyone and their dog could hate the RBBC, but you cannot ignore the results. It did very well.

[Requiem]

Addai had some previous injuies but has a solid overall game (much like a former Bulldog RB) and could be a steal at RB. Bell has proven he is a one trick pony.

I sure hope that wasn't a comparison to Davis, because it's not even close. Also, Bell isn't a one trick pony. What's his trick... speed? How about the vision and all the other countless jargon that goes into making some of those big plays successful? Yeah, he's a speed demon, but that alone isn't the reason why Bell had success last year. The kid has everything he needs to be a feature back.

[2KBack]

Addai is a guy who split time in college with many other backs and never fully carried the load. If you guys don't like Bell, I don't see how you can like him either.

TD split his carries in college as well. Splitting carries doens't mean they CAN"T carry the load, it just means there's no proof they can. Usually that's when you take into account their work ethic. Guys like Rod and TD made themselves the supermen they are through determination.

I feel the need to Defend MA again. He was completely an impact draft pick, what Offensive Rookie of the year isn't? Sadly he wasn't utilized mcuh after that year, and being that he was old when drafted, aged quickly.

[cutthemdown]

Dont like this either. Ive heard from a great source on this board that he is very soft and doesnt work hard either. Being a Broncos fan is nice and all, but still, nope.

Doesn't work hard? Mike Bell ran hard every time he got ball and never had any blocking. Was tough and battled through nagging injuries on the field like a tough player. Don't know how he can be labled a loafer at this point.

[Ballhawk]

I sure hope that wasn't a comparison to Davis, because it's not even close. Also, Bell isn't a one trick pony. What's his trick... speed? How about the vision and all the other countless jargon that goes into making some of those big plays successful? Yeah, he's a speed demon, but that alone isn't the reason why Bell had success last year. The kid has everything he needs to be a feature back.

We are not going to agree on this and I hope you are right, because we need to be a run first team with Jake at QB.

[Requiem]

Splitting carries doens't mean they CAN"T carry the load.

Bingo. Which is my point with Bell. So, he split the carries, but we could debate forever why we did that. I believe he can carry the load. Now if you're going to say that "He's only carried 17 times max in one game, no way can he carry the load." I'll laugh at you. We did what we thought was best and that was a two-back system. It worked very well. Now, will anyone say Mike Anderson couldn't carry the load? If they do, that's BS and they're lying to you. He could, but we were more effective with the Anderson/Bell duo than we would have been if one of them was just carrying the rock.

[cutthemdown]

People we are talking about mike bell not tatum bell right?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Bingo. Which is my point with Bell. So, he split the carries, but we could debate forever why we did that. I believe he can carry the load. Now if you're going to say that "He's only carried 17 times max in one game, no way can he carry the load." I'll laugh at you. We did what we thought was best and that was a two-back system. It worked very well. Now, will anyone say Mike Anderson couldn't carry the load? If they do, that's BS and they're lying to you. He could, but we were more effective with the Anderson/Bell duo than we would have been if one of them was just carrying the rock.

Be sure to get that note to Shanny, the architect of maybe the greatest rushing attack in history, who decided early on that neither guy was good enough to feature but that Anderson was better suited for it than Tatum.

[wabbit]

You can also include Clinton Portis, Reggie Hayward, Bert Berry, Darrent Williams and Domonique Foxworth in the "impact" category.

Darrent was a major impact player for us last season, and Foxworth contributed as well. The other guys are playing for other teams, but that doesnt mean that they werent drafted by Denver. Portis landed us the best CB of this era. Does that count?


That's fine, and yeah, of course they count...I'm not working with a football encyclopedia in front of me here, just venting some frustrations that have built up over the years.

Look, since 2001 Denver has drafted precisely as many players that have started or played back-up roles (17) as are now OUT of the NFL entirely (17).

6 are playing for other teams.

That's not very good.

I'm sure some stat wiz might be able to compare the numbers with the successes of other teams and I'm fairly certain Denver will rank somewhere in the middle.

Great. Is that where you want this team to be...smack in the middle...like KC...year after year after year weighted down in hopeless mediocrity...leaving your fans to using clever statistical manipulations and an occassional moral victory to boast your accomplishments.

Hasn't happened because we have a terrific coach, staff & owner.

But, it could also be better...a bunch better, and I do suppose you could say that about anybody or any team.

Hell, look at it. If it wasn't for AL Davis & Carl Peterson, we'd be the laughing stock on draft days dating back 10 years.

I guess they are useful for something...eh?

[Requiem]

We are not going to agree on this and I hope you are right, because we need to be a run first team with Jake at QB.

Denver will always be a run first team. Tatum Bell has all the tools in the world to be that back, I don't think he would have been thought of that highly coming out of college if he didn't have those tools. Just have faith man. I respect your opinion, and it's always nice to argue.

I feel we have bigger needs than RB, and we need to use our picks elsewhere. I think if Denver wanted a back in the first that badly, they wouldn't have signed Dayne. I think they're confident with who they have now, and will more than likely add a day-two pick into the mix. I honestly don't see a rookie coming in here and taking us back to the "Davis Promise-Land of One Back Ecstasy" -- that's just my belief.

[Requiem]

Look, since 2001 Denver has drafted precisely as many players that have started or played back-up roles (17) as are now OUT of the NFL entirely (17). 6 are playing for other teams. That's not very good.

I did touch base on this in another thread, stating how the talent Denver has drafted throughout the years, those who have made an impact, are either unhappy with us now (Ashley) or have left to different places. Hayward, Portis, Kennedy, Putzier, etc.

I don't see how people can take this draft lightly when we did absolutely **** in free agency.

To call Denver mediocre in respect of the draft is very kind, because in all honesty -- they're pretty damn terrible and the only thing that saves them from getting my "Absoultely Stinking Up the Joint" trophy is the fact that they usually seem to draft one guy each year that makes an impact for the team, it's just too bad, some of those guys are gone.

[cabronco]

I don't think Shanahan believes T. Bell can be an every down back. Obviously he didnt think so last year, and admittedly said that he didnt want Bell to have over so many carries a game. I dont see it any different his year. I remember Turner ripping Bells *ss more times than not last year, for dancing around and not hitting the holes. I personally would like to have a bigger back like L. White and someone that can catch screen passes.

[Ballhawk]

I don't think Shanahan believes T. Bell can be an every down back. Obviously he didnt think so last year, and admittedly said that he didnt want Bell to have over so many carries a game. I dont see it any different his year. I remember Turner ripping Bells *ss more times than not last year, for dancing around and not hitting the holes. I personally would like to have a bigger back like L. White and someone that can catch screen passes.

Keep in mind that Bell got most of his yards on fresh legs angainst a D Anderson had beat up on for a half. Like I said I hope Im wrong, but what I like about Addai is his blocking and Rec skills, that even if Bell breaks out would give us a great 3rd down back to protect Jake on the blitzes.

[ludo21]

Man, their are some great draft experts on here!!

TY OM, keep the good stuff coming!!

[BombsOverBaghdad]

How much do you want to bet? :~ohyah!:

Heav is right; there will be a RB in the first round

[SpringStein]

Davis, Pryce, Wilson, DJ Williams & George Foster are about the only impact players we've drafted in a DECADE.


I agree that this is a critical year, But over the past 10 years, I would count the following as impact players:
John Mobley
Tory James (ok, not for us) ;)
Trevor Pryce
Dan Neil
Al Wilson
Ian Gold
Reggie Hayward
Ben Hamilton
Ashley Lelie
Portis
Foster
DJ Williams
Darrent Williams
Foxworth

I certainly don't believe we are a top 5 drafting team - but I do think we are in the top half, especially since we average drafting around 2/3 down each round over the past 10 years.

[BombsOverBaghdad]

The main reason Mike Shanahan has retained his position here is because the man is a titan game planner/innovator & often (not always) a brilliant game-day coach.

If an honest verdict were to be passed on his draft history, he would be judged 'lucky' at best...lucky his mind bending gaffs didn't completely undermine the on-field progression of his team.

I'm not down on Shanahan...with the draft being the notable exception.

The guy can hide more bad moves than an accountant with a Grand Cayman bank, but now...right now...the opportunity exists to fill a couple of gaping holes AND build real strength in depth...particularly with those multiple 4th rounders.

Cooper Carlisle is a stop-gap Guard at the very best, and that's being kind. His miserable & frequent lapses spilled over onto an injured George Foster & brought down the house on that kid...here on the Mane at any rate.

You can find real talent in the fourth round, where the best 'potential' O-linemen seem to be found.

I've read many posts here where people throw around those 4ths like so much draft fodder in the hopes of moving around to, perhaps, land that elite TE or DE.

..and you know what, you damn well may get your wish, because Mike Shanahan & Ted Sundquist make some of the most mind bending gaffs you will see in the NFL.

It's Shanahans' skill, staff & superior understanding of his personnel that mold this wild mosaic of talent into contenders every year.

Honestly, I've been waiting for the house of cards to fall, but every year it seems, he makes a dramatic move of one stripe or another, and bandages the wound.

No dramatic Bailey, 3CBs or Browncos this year though.

TO, Abraham were pipe dreams.

A shakey O-line, wistful WR corp, band-aid RBs & 'Weird Joe' OBs are reality.

Wabbit, you are the man ..................... I agree, too many holes on the O to not seriously try to address.
It would be nice to force our will on oppenents (ala '97 & '98)

[HEAV]

..lucky his mind bending gaffs didn't completely undermine the on-field progression of his team.

I feel they have. He's used draft picks to clean up bad FA pick ups, only to reach on a few players. O'neal was to replace that bad pick up of Carter.

He also has a tendency to listen to too many of his underlings and grab players like Clarrett, Middlebrooks, Watts, Tonovossie just to name a few.

Yet every year he passes on pass rushing DE that land elsewhere and produce.

[Odysseus]

Better to take a risk at making the team better rather than pussing out by lying and saying the cap room isn't there because you're afraid to get burned.

*cough* Dale Carter *COUGH* *Cough* Darryl Gardener *Cough* *Cough*

[watermock]

Hire someone with a lead pipe to break VD's shin but not destroy it and take him at 15. See Avatar...on second thought, hire Tanya Harding. Frankie would probably kill VD outright.

Lawson move down a little. After that, it's all gravy, BPA. Maybe a futureL OT if they like one. House is ancient and still recovering. He may never be the same or handle the pounding. Lepsis is getting up there too.

[watermock]

Great post. But, you'll have a hard time selling that around here. A large percentage of the people think we're a "talented, young team" that will be on top for years. Of course, there's no rational basis for that... and a simple look at our progress over the past 5 years tells you that we're at the TOP of a pendulum swing, but.. facts be damned.

That's simply not true. Rod,Nails and Lynch are getting up there, but our backs are all young, our recievers are young. Our DL is young. Wilson still has tread left. Our OLB's are young. We have tons of youngsters for the secondary and several S prospects.

Finally, we have 2 firsts our second and THREE 4ths. Your just plain wrong. Kansas City is an old team.

[baja]

Any one know how much dead money on the books?

[watermock]

Pryce for 2.5 but we saved a brinks truck. Anderson and Putz probably another 2 or 3. It's not bad at all. Rod, Nails and Plummer all have alot of money deferred into signing bonus. Herc is the resident capologist.

I don't know why people think Bell can't take on a bigger load, and Dayne and Cobbs have been impressive (I know, off season hype), but Dayne was a superstar in college and Cobbs is vastly underrated and was injured. I liked him alot out of college. We have enough backs not to waste a first, we have more glaring needs at TE and DE. Duke is still green and Pryce and Putz are gone. We allready have three high pick RB's on the roster and Sapp can play RB as well. He's improved each year...all he did was be the feature back and rarely caught the ball at CSU, and didn't play special teams. He's now accepted his role and IMO will wind up being a fine all around FB that can carry catch and play special teams well. We have plenty of size and speed at RB and Sapp ran a 4.55 out of CSU.

I'd like to get Jeremy Bloom in the 4th as a returner. DW is getting too valuable at this point IMO. We need our own X factor.

[SoCalBronco]

We really need to trade down from 22 and pick up some more picks. Its actually absolutely essential.

[epicSocialism4tw]

We really need to trade down from 22 and pick up some more picks. Its actually absolutely essential.

Who has 2 second rounders?

[Merlin]

I'm sure some stat wiz might be able to compare the numbers with the successes of other teams and I'm fairly certain Denver will rank somewhere in the middle...Hell, look at it. If it wasn't for AL Davis & Carl Peterson, we'd be the laughing stock on draft days dating back 10 years.
This has been done, the last time (last yr before the season started) the analysis placed Denver in the top 3rd of the league (the analysis considered pro-bowl, players still in the league, starters, part timers, and abject failures). The author concluded that Denver did very well considering where they picked (rarely did the team have a losing season), but the team did not perform anywhere near as well as Philadelphia and NE.

So, would they be the laughing stock of the league? No, far from it since they perform in the top 1/3. However, you need to be better than that (to be a SB team) unless you frequently hit HRs with FA (which obviously is not the case with Denver). That being said, the analysis did not include last yrs crop (only one stinker), and hopefully it is a sign of things to come.

[elsid13]

I amazed how down most folks are broncos front office. The draft real is a crap shoot and most of it comes down to luck. No one really knows how any of the kids will translate into the NFL from college.

If you think we're bad at draft try this line up

2005 Roscoe Parrish WR Miami (hurt might be good)
2004 Lee Evans WR Wisconsin (solid hit)
J.P. Losman QB Tulane (trying to trade)
2003 Willis McGahee RB Miami (ok, good but not elite back)
2002 Mike Williams T Texas (out of football)
2001 Nate Clements CB Ohio State (pretty good)
2000 Erik Flowers DE Arizona State (no longer on the team lasted 2 years there)

How many impact drafted players do the Bills have? or the Titans, or AZ.

[baja]

This has been done, the last time (last yr before the season started) the analysis placed Denver in the top 3rd of the league (the analysis considered pro-bowl, players still in the league, starters, part timers, and abject failures). The author concluded that Denver did very well considering where they picked (rarely did the team have a losing season), but the team did not perform anywhere near as well as Philadelphia and NE.

So, would they be the laughing stock of the league? No, far from it since they perform in the top 1/3. However, you need to be better than that (to be a SB team) unless you frequently hit HRs with FA (which obviously is not the case with Denver). That being said, the analysis did not include last yrs crop (only one stinker), and hopefully it is a sign of things to come.

I remember that study. I think over the years the second round has been our nemesis.

[Clockwork Orange]

Who has 2 second rounders?

Minnesota.

[Rohirrim]

Where's that damn value chart? What's the value for a 22? Could we get a second and a fourth?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Where's that damn value chart? What's the value for a 22? Could we get a second and a fourth?


Why would Denver want a second and a fourth when they upgraded to # 15 with a 3rd? It doesnt seem like a good deal to get another 4 (already have 2) when you traded your 3 to move up in the 1st round.

[SpringStein]

Who has 2 second rounders?

I know Vikings have 48 and 51. At the top of the 3rd, Texans have #65 and 66.

[SpringStein]

Where's that damn value chart? What's the value for a 22? Could we get a second and a fourth?

On the draft chart I look at, 22 is 780 and Minny's 48 and 51 total 810. Throw in our 5th, and it's pretty even. I doubt Minny would do this as they have plenty of holes to fill. But I'd love it.

[Rohirrim]

On the draft chart I look at, 22 is 780 and Minny's 48 and 51 total 810. Throw in our 5th, and it's pretty even. I doubt Minny would do this as they have plenty of holes to fill. But I'd love it.

Wow, better than I thought. Those two Texan thirds look mighty sweet too, and Texas had needs. I just think that after pick 15 in this draft, there are questions about each pick rated in the first round (Except maybe Mangold), but the money will be big, questions or no. In the second and third, there's a lot of value in this draft and trading down would give us an extra player. Just off the top of my head there's Mike Hass, Dave Thomas, Bullocks, Colledge, etc.

[gunns]

That's simply not true. Rod,Nails and Lynch are getting up there, but our backs are all young, our recievers are young. Our DL is young. Wilson still has tread left. Our OLB's are young. We have tons of youngsters for the secondary and several S prospects.

Finally, we have 2 firsts our second and THREE 4ths. Your just plain wrong. Kansas City is an old team.

We are the second oldest team in the league, right after KC.

1. Atlanta 26.22
2. Tennessee 26.36
3. New England 26.45
4. Chicago 26.54
5. Arizona 26.40
6. Indianapolis 26.68
7. Detroit 26.77
8. Jacksonville 26.91
T-9. Pittsburgh 27.09
T-9. Carolina 27.09
11. San Francisco 27.13
12. Minnesota 27.18
T-13. Cincinnati 27.22
T-13. NY Giants 27.22
T-13. San Diego 27.22
16. NY Jets 27.36

17. Philadelphia 27.41
18. Houston 27.54
19. Cleveland 27.59
T-20. Green Bay 27.63
T-20. Tampa Bay 27.63
T-22. Baltimore 27.77
T-22. Buffalo 27.77
24. Seattle 27.86
T-25. Oakland 28.00
T-25. St. Louis 28.00
27. Cowboys 28.09
28. Washington 28.22
729. New Orleans 28.31
30. Miami 28.40
31. Denver 28.54
32. Kansas City 29.22

[youcandoit1687]

Addai is a guy who split time in college with many other backs and never fully carried the load. If you guys don't like Bell, I don't see how you can like him either.

that is because addai was with a very talented backfield and a coach who liked to split his RB time(youd want to too with the natl ship mvp in the backfield as well as other top RBs). addai can take a huge load, is a great backfield receiver as well as slot receiver, blocks like a madman and would be great around 40ish if we can get there.

[Arkansas Bronco]

This has been done, the last time (last yr before the season started) the analysis placed Denver in the top 3rd of the league (the analysis considered pro-bowl, players still in the league, starters, part timers, and abject failures). The author concluded that Denver did very well considering where they picked (rarely did the team have a losing season), but the team did not perform anywhere near as well as Philadelphia and NE.

So, would they be the laughing stock of the league? No, far from it since they perform in the top 1/3. However, you need to be better than that (to be a SB team) unless you frequently hit HRs with FA (which obviously is not the case with Denver). That being said, the analysis did not include last yrs crop (only one stinker), and hopefully it is a sign of things to come.
Im sorry but I have had a better focus on round one then what we have got. I have a fear of draft day because shanny goes random. 2 picks stand realy hard in my head still because i was realy pulling for Ed Reed and Kris Jenkins and we pissed both away (sure Lelie has done some good but com on). I am just saying an average guy at home watching Col. football on saturdays has seen things better then what we have drafted in the first. Now dont get me wrong we have came out with some good one later on in the draft and that is where i get week and i respect that in our frontoffice//shanny. As far as #1 go it seems we usualy dont know who we need to take (and i was one of the Steven Jackson suporters a couple years ago and i love DJ but i think if we would have taken him we could have put the lights out on everyone else).

[gunns]

The main reason Mike Shanahan has retained his position here is because the man is a titan game planner/innovator & often (not always) a brilliant game-day coach.

If an honest verdict were to be passed on his draft history, he would be judged 'lucky' at best...lucky his mind bending gaffs didn't completely undermine the on-field progression of his team.

I'm not down on Shanahan...with the draft being the notable exception.

The guy can hide more bad moves than an accountant with a Grand Cayman bank, but now...right now...the opportunity exists to fill a couple of gaping holes AND build real strength in depth...particularly with those multiple 4th rounders.

Cooper Carlisle is a stop-gap Guard at the very best, and that's being kind. His miserable & frequent lapses spilled over onto an injured George Foster & brought down the house on that kid...here on the Mane at any rate.

You can find real talent in the fourth round, where the best 'potential' O-linemen seem to be found.

I've read many posts here where people throw around those 4ths like so much draft fodder in the hopes of moving around to, perhaps, land that elite TE or DE.

..and you know what, you damn well may get your wish, because Mike Shanahan & Ted Sundquist make some of the most mind bending gaffs you will see in the NFL.

It's Shanahans' skill, staff & superior understanding of his personnel that mold this wild mosaic of talent into contenders every year.

Honestly, I've been waiting for the house of cards to fall, but every year it seems, he makes a dramatic move of one stripe or another, and bandages the wound.

No dramatic Bailey, 3CBs or Browncos this year though.

TO, Abraham were pipe dreams.

A shakey O-line, wistful WR corp, band-aid RBs & 'Weird Joe' OBs are reality.

That is the best assessment of Shanahan and the draft and the Broncos in general I have ever seen. Much respect Wabbit.

[SoCalBronco]

Im sorry but I have had a better focus on round one then what we have got. I have a fear of draft day because shanny goes random.

This is a very legitimate fear. I am already fuming and the draft is still two weeks away.

[Arkansas Bronco]

This is a very legitimate fear. I am already fuming and the draft is still two weeks away.
If anyone knows a dang thing about the players coming out and what they can be then they should have the same fear as you and me.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

*cough* Dale Carter *COUGH* *Cough* Darryl Gardener *Cough* *Cough*

So? Not every move works out. If you're afraid to **** up you shouldn't be making personnel moves.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Now see, I don't understand this approach.


Taco seriously needs to get a sarcasm smiley because that's at least 2 people who had my post go way over their heads.

[Arkansas Bronco]

So? Not every move works out. If you're afraid to **** up you shouldn't be making personnel moves.
I actualy liked the move. To bad Carter screwed it up because he was a talented CB.

[SoCalBronco]

Taco seriously needs to get a sarcasm smiley because that's at least 2 people who had my post go way over their heads.

it will be :Herc: ;D

[youcandoit1687]

ok so we are 28.54 compared to the youngest at 26.22....that is not a big difference 2 years....thats like we drafted seniors out of college and they drafted juniors and our seniors will last one year less. thats not a big deal, give me the statistics for say the 30 players who get the most PT and that is a statistic worth analyzing.
tatum bell - give the man a chance, its his third year now and this should be his year to shine(its when most of our offense does excluding some of the 1000 yard wonders). with dayne working it to 3/4 the effectiveness of MA, and tatum bell being 5/4 more effective than last year, were at the same place and i think dayne will do better than that. remember the guy barely played last year and that means his practice time wasnt there much either.
o not sure if it was this thread but matt mauck isnt with us anymore hes with tennessee(as of the end of the season)

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I actualy liked the move. To bad Carter screwed it up because he was a talented CB.

He also wasn't as bad as people made him out to be that season on the field. Not what was expected, but not a complete hole at corner either.

[watermock]

Every draft is "critical" to an extent, but this one is huge because we get two firsts and 3 fourths in what is considered a deep draft. Damn Gibbs. We moved up to 15 in almost criminal fashon.

Everyone knows I scream like a stuck pig every year, this year it worked out good. All teams get hits and misses. How this board would be howling if we had taken Leaf, Harrington or Couch at the top of the draft! Cleveland stocked our team and Dayne is going to be better than people think as well as Cobbs.

This year I'm just copping some oxycotine down at the local illegal immigrant egg plant (our version of the projects) and riding out the storm.

This is NOT an aging team whatsoever and will get younger. That 28 year old average is rather skewered as well with Rod and lynch. It's not like we are counting on Burns to be our MLB either. Who cares if Elam is getting up there, he's lost maybe 5 yards.

[GoHAM]

This is NOT an aging team whatsoever and will get younger. That 28 year old average is rather skewered as well with Rod and lynch. It's not like we are counting on Burns to be our MLB either. Who cares if Elam is getting up there, he's lost maybe 5 yards.

Let's not forget about Nails adding to that age stat. Seriously we have Rod, Lynch, Burns, Elam, and Nalen who are currently on the roster that really do skew the number. Plus I'm willing to bet that Marco Coleman had something to do with that number. Are we a really young team with a decade of dominance to look forward to? No, but I see us as still on the upswing with a peak in the next 2-3 seasons, after that then we will really be old if our roster remains stagnant, which just does not happen in today's NFL.

Even so I am not adamant about maintaining the status quo, I'm all for having a great draft in which we hit on both firsts, our second and 2/3 fourths. maybe even a fifth or sixth makes the active roster, even better. If our draft picks cause us to genuinely cut five or six veterans because they are better, that would be awesome. Because that would mean our team talent is better.

In Shannahan I trust......just maybe not on draft day.

To this day my two worst Bronco memories (excluding SB losses) are the jax loss and watching Chris Berman announce that the Denver Broncos with the final pick of the third round in the 2005 NFL Draft have selected running back out of Ohio State, Maurice Clarrett, the first words out of my mouth, after I regained my ability to speak was "Worst Draft Pick EVER!!!!" :gus:

[Popps]

Now see, I don't understand this approach.

I do believe this is, perhaps, the most critical draft since Elway retired...and for a lot of reasons.

On the surface, the structure is sturdy, but underneath...as in depth...there is reason for real concern.

Denver has outright sucked at drafting need, and has only marginal success in drafting depth. That, despite the wild successes of the Terrell Davis, Tom Nalen & Matt Lepsis (I know, I know, he was a college FA).

Davis, Pryce, Wilson, DJ Williams & George Foster are about the only impact players we've drafted in a DECADE.

I guess you could count Griese among the group if everyone here wasn't so anal about the guy.

Yes, the relative and admirable successes of Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Asheley Lelie, Jep Putzier...on & on...are nice & touchy feely, but you cannot build a SB roster on cast-offs & second tier FAs.

Yes, the Broncos came awfully close last year, but the underlysing structure needs some serious re-building...right NOW.

The O-line is absolutely desperate for depth, WR's are all a wish & a prayer as are the RBs, the QB is a wild card, while his back-up HAS to frighten anyone wondering what might happen if Plummer really does go down for any length of time.

The D-line are cast-offs...playing well, but that's not the point. The LBs are tops and perhaps the best representative of any draft success we've had.

Our Safeties are marginal...yes, Lynch is terrific, but the guy couldn't cover my daughter at this stage.

CB's...great!!...lucky, after all these years...Middlebrooks, O'Neil...hell, Shanahan finally had to break the bank to fill the position.

Yes, this is a critical draft...make that crucial, red light...beep, beep baby the end is near...the team HAS to hit, and hit BIG on every early pick and absolutely, positively MUST develop some depth we didn't pick up hitchhiking on I-25...c'mon.

I don't always agree with your posts, but I can easily recognize you as the most sensible and informed poster on this forum, particularly regarding current team affairs.

Hence, it's not surprising that your analysis is so dead on.

"this team has to hit"...

Couldn't agree more. This is NOT the 2001 Denver Broncos. This team is special, but it's not going to last forever. We're being pretty passive in free agency.... so, you're right... we'd better hit a couple of home runs in this draft.

[gunns]

To this day my two worst Bronco memories (excluding SB losses) are the jax loss and watching Chris Berman announce that the Denver Broncos with the final pick of the third round in the 2005 NFL Draft have selected running back out of Ohio State, Maurice Clarrett, the first words out of my mouth, after I regained my ability to speak was "Worst Draft Pick EVER!!!!"


I know you are talking about Shanahan's picks but as far as worst draft you must not have been around when Denver picked Tommy Maddox over Carl Pickens. I hyperventilated for hours. Same when we picked Lelie over Ed Reed.

[Play2win]

This is how I see it, since Sundquist has had his hands in the action, we have gotten alot better, DAVID GIBBS is no longer on the staff, that right there increase our odd atleast two-fold, and Shanny is handing off responsibility much more now. That is good sign in two ways, he is more open to other expert opinion, and it means we now finally have some good experts on our staff.

Patterson, Bruster, Heimerdinger, Slowik, Patterson, McPherson, and (I think...) Coyer...

Not only experience, but some top PROs in their respected field in the game. Not just for the draft, but for game-time coaching, and DEVELOPMENT...

I think Shanahan's supporting cast is whats going to make us champion for a long time... DESPITE JAKE... Nnyah!

[watermock]

Davis, Pryce, Wilson, DJ Williams & George Foster are about the only impact players we've drafted in a DECADE.


With all due respect to Wabbit I consider a friend and confidant, (maybe before this post), We have hit paydirt a few times, missed a few more with some short timers. There is no guarantee we would of taken Ed Reed if Lelie was taken by Reeves, that is an assumption. Most of us were thrilled to get Lelie, he just isn't working well, a trade with GB is in order to get Walker and VD giving up Lelie, our 15 and a 4th. I can dream right?

Maddox screwed us once, Lelie screwed us twice, but Dan Reeves never slacked off. We have been thru the "cut the nuts off Elway" conversation, it's 15 years ago. This isn't Chef Planet.

We are going to move, who knows how, where, or why. I just have the feeling we will, but this is impossible to predict as we all know. I still have faint hope we can trade Lelie for Walker, trade our 15 and one or two 4ths', and get Davis and Lawson in the first and land Walker.

[Play2win]

Why both Dan Reeves's first and last names are not both FOUR LETTER WORDS is beyond me...

[wabbit]

With all due respect to Wabbit I consider a friend and confidant, (maybe before this post), We have hit paydirt a few times, missed a few more with some short timers. There is no guarantee we would of taken Ed Reed if Lelie was taken by Reeves, that is an assumption. Most of us were thrilled to get Lelie, he just isn't working well, a trade with GB is in order to get Walker and VD giving up Lelie, our 15 and a 4th. I can dream right?

Maddox screwed us once, Lelie screwed us twice, but Dan Reeves never slacked off. We have been thru the "cut the nuts off Elway" conversation, it's 15 years ago. This isn't Chef Planet.

We are going to move, who knows how, where, or why. I just have the feeling we will, but this is impossible to predict as we all know. I still have faint hope we can trade Lelie for Walker, trade our 15 and one or two 4ths', and get Davis and Lawson in the first and land Walker.


Nah Mock...I've never been any kind of draft expert, just the 20-20 hindsight kind like everyone else.

Shanahan & Co. have made some major hits to be sure, but are they genuine, analytical gems...or opportunistic accidents.

DJ Williams was a great pick, but I was wrong when I named him the guy the Broncos were targeting before that draft. The fact is they were targeting that next Jerry Rice of our era...TO's object of envy and the bane of all NFL defensive backs...WR Reggie Williams, snatched from our open arms by Jacksonville...lucky them.

Reggie who??...you say

You see my point, or maybe not.

Reaching for Nash, Middlebrooks, Toviessi, O'Neil, Griff, Friedman...on & on & on borders on incompetent scouting and is clearly arrogant....'we see things no-one else does' kind of arrogance.

We're talking about multiple 1's, a couple of 2's & a three.

Travis Griff in the third round was mind boggling to everyone but Mike Shanahan...knew his father you see...knows the coach, ALL kinds of untapped potential.

Learned about Friedman from his SON...SECOND ROUND!!!

I remember vividly one of the draft guys on ESPN saying Freidman was widely thought to possibly go undrafted, but to Shanahans' credit, he would've been a highly sought-after college FA.

Hey Mike...you're not shopping for groceries and 'trying' something new each time. This is an NFL Franchise for God's sake.

OK, enough, but as spectactular as he is at coaching, he, himself is a bust on draft day way too often and, gee golly wiz, I just don't like it...sorry.

[watermock]

Well, the vigil starts in a couple weeks. We have a Reggie Williams clone in Terrell...

Give me a Good TE and a Frankenstien DE.

[SoCalBronco]

Nah Mock...I've never been any kind of draft expert, just the 20-20 hindsight kind like everyone else.

Shanahan & Co. have made some major hits to be sure, but are they genuine, analytical gems...or opportunistic accidents.

DJ Williams was a great pick, but I was wrong when I named him the guy the Broncos were targeting before that draft. The fact is they were targeting that next Jerry Rice of our era...TO's object of envy and the bane of all NFL defensive backs...WR Reggie Williams, snatched from our open arms by Jacksonville...lucky them.

Reggie who??...you say

You see my point, or maybe not.

Reaching for Nash, Middlebrooks, Toviessi, O'Neil, Griff, Friedman...on & on & on borders on incompetent scouting and is clearly arrogant....'we see things no-one else does' kind of arrogance.

We're talking about multiple 1's, a couple of 2's & a three.

Travis Griff in the third round was mind boggling to everyone but Mike Shanahan...knew his father you see...knows the coach, ALL kinds of untapped potential.

Learned about Friedman from his SON...SECOND ROUND!!!

I remember vividly one of the draft guys on ESPN saying Freidman was widely thought to possibly go undrafted, but to Shanahans' credit, he would've been a highly sought-after college FA.

Hey Mike...you're not shopping for groceries and 'trying' something new each time. This is an NFL Franchise for God's sake.

OK, enough, but as spectactular as he is at coaching, he, himself is a bust on draft day way too often and, gee golly wiz, I just don't like it...sorry.

I think he also acquired safety Darius Clark based on Kyle Shanahan's comments as well.

There have been some head scratchers thats for sure. Some good picks too, like DJ as you mentioned, although he'll be here only 3 more years tops. I was kind of puzzled at their top 5 from last year that they revealed after they traded the pick to Washington...Fabian Washington, Matt Jones, 1 other guys I hated, Antrel Rolle and Carlos Rogers. How the hell did they think Rolle or Rogers would be there? I mean arent these top 5 target lists supposed to be realistic? Im even more relieved that we traded that pick after hearing about Jones, Washington and that other guy.

Sometimes Shanny just doesnt make sense, although he did quite well with DWill and Fox last year and hopefully with Myers too.

[cutthemdown]

Where's that damn value chart? What's the value for a 22? Could we get a second and a fourth?
you should get get a top 5 pick in second round, and mis 3rd for the 22nd pick according to a standard value chart.

[Play2win]

I think he also acquired safety Darius Clark based on Kyle Shanahan's comments as well.

There have been some head scratchers thats for sure. Some good picks too, like DJ as you mentioned, although he'll be here only 3 more years tops. I was kind of puzzled at their top 5 from last year that they revealed after they traded the pick to Washington...Fabian Washington, Matt Jones, 1 other guys I hated, Antrel Rolle and Carlos Rogers. How the hell did they think Rolle or Rogers would be there? I mean arent these top 5 target lists supposed to be realistic? Im even more relieved that we traded that pick after hearing about Jones, Washington and that other guy.

Sometimes Shanny just doesnt make sense, although he did quite well with DWill and Fox last year and hopefully with Myers too.


I think now that some of the Rift-Raft is out of the organization, you'll see a lot more sound drafts... :thumbsup:

[Play2win]

That "Draft Chart" Cracks me up, its all about supply and demand...

ESPECIALLY ON DRAFT DAY...

[wolf754life]

The broncos need to try a new scouting director, the jim goodman guy is a little to aggressive. It seems like the broncos never like the sure thing, they do think they are smarter than everyone else and that is not a good thing. I am very nervous about this years draft, I am willing to lower the potential or upside of a pick for a more ready made sure thing pick. The more I think about it maybe we should pass on Lawson and take Kiwi or Hali at 22 and just play it safe.

One other thing, I have seen Maroney play alot, and L. White, but Deangelo Williams is relatively unknown, I've seen his stats, but is he tough, does he have heart, I have seen him rated as the 11th best player on many draft sites, he seems like a steal at 22. There must be a knock on him to be available at 22.

If the steelers get lendale white it is going to break my heart, there defense, with a lead in the 4th quarter, pounding the rock with him, I don't like that at all, the steelers are one of the greatest teams of all time with the NFL draft. They always get their guy, and they always know which way to go, you win games in the spring and the fall, and the broncos have given away too many for too long in the spring!

[wabbit]

...I was kind of puzzled at their top 5 from last year that they revealed after they traded the pick to Washington...Fabian Washington, Matt Jones, 1 other guys I hated, Antrel Rolle and Carlos Rogers. How the hell did they think Rolle or Rogers would be there? I mean arent these top 5 target lists supposed to be realistic? ...

Don't you remember me saying Washington was written in Bold, albeit erasable ink on their big board a day or two before the draft.

All kinds of CB's listed there, although, as hard as I tried, I do not remember Darrent Williams, Foxworth or Paymah listed.

I just sensed we were headed for disaster until we were rescued from the proverbial jaws of ignominy by that brilliant strategest of his own right...Dan Snyder.

Thanks Dan. I guess being a bafoon isn't all bad if your not a 'Skins fan.

[SoCalBronco]

If the steelers get lendale white it is going to break my heart,

It will break mine too. It would mean we had two shots at him and whiffed both times. I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really want him...badly.

[SoCalBronco]

Don't you remember me saying Washington was written in Bold, albeit erasable ink on their big board a day or two before the draft.

All kinds of CB's listed there, although, as hard as I tried, I do not remember Darrent Williams, Foxworth or Paymah listed.

I just sensed we were headed for disaster until we were rescued from the proverbial jaws of ignominy by that brilliant strategest of his own right...Dan Snyder.

Thanks Dan. I guess being a bafoon isn't all bad if your not a 'Skins fan.

Yes, I remember you talking about Washington and Stanford Routt as well I believe. You also called Vincent Jackson, who Shanny said on saturday night of the draft that they were targetting with 3A and were pissed that SD got him.

[wabbit]

Yes, someone...maybe Sundquist said right after the first day that Jackson was just within their grasp.

I still think he will turn out to be an excellent #2 or #3 WR...you never know with that goofy Marty-ball system in San Diego however.

[Play2win]

One other thing, I have seen Maroney play alot, and L. White, but Deangelo Williams is relatively unknown, I've seen his stats, but is he tough, does he have heart, I have seen him rated as the 11th best player on many draft sites, he seems like a steal at 22. There must be a knock on him to be available at 22.


DW2 would be a Steal at 15!!!!

[epicSocialism4tw]

If I remember right, it wasnt just Reggie Williams that Denver wanted with that DJ Williams pick, they wanted Tommie Harris.

Tommie hasnt been too bad of a player.

[SoCalBronco]

If I remember right, it wasnt just Reggie Williams that Denver wanted with that DJ Williams pick, they wanted Tommie Harris.

Tommie hasnt been too bad of a player.

Their big four was: Reggie Williams, Tommie Harris, Michael Clayton and DJ Williams.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Their big four was: Reggie Williams, Tommie Harris, Michael Clayton and DJ Williams.

That's not a bad big 4 at all. I remember Shanny specifically mentioning their lament at Tommie going off of the board to the Bears, and that he was a player they really wanted. It's too bad. If he was here, we wouldnt be talking about DLine problems. That guy is a beast. He dominated the line at OU.

Clayton would have been excellent as well. Big strong WR. Kind of like Keshawn without the yapper.

[Play2win]

Sorry, but I would take HARRIS in about a half-second...

[Odysseus]

So? Not every move works out. If you're afraid to **** up you shouldn't be making personnel moves.

I don't think Shanahan is afraid of anything particularly since he sometimes continues to make the same mistakes over and over again fearlessly.

I think Wabbit makes some good insights.

I think Broncos do not need to augment their Defensive Line :wave: (This is a sarcasm similie)

I think our safetys are set for the next 20 years. ;) (This is a sarcasm similie)

[baja]

Nah Mock...I've never been any kind of draft expert, just the 20-20 hindsight kind like everyone else.

Shanahan & Co. have made some major hits to be sure, but are they genuine, analytical gems...or opportunistic accidents.

DJ Williams was a great pick, but I was wrong when I named him the guy the Broncos were targeting before that draft. The fact is they were targeting that next Jerry Rice of our era...TO's object of envy and the bane of all NFL defensive backs...WR Reggie Williams, snatched from our open arms by Jacksonville...lucky them.

Reggie who??...you say

You see my point, or maybe not.

Reaching for Nash, Middlebrooks, Toviessi, O'Neil, Griff, Friedman...on & on & on borders on incompetent scouting and is clearly arrogant....'<b>we see things no-one else does' kind of arrogance.</b>

We're talking about multiple 1's, a couple of 2's & a three.

Travis Griff in the third round was mind boggling to everyone but Mike Shanahan...knew his father you see...knows the coach, ALL kinds of untapped potential.

Learned about Friedman from his SON...SECOND ROUND!!!

I remember vividly one of the draft guys on ESPN saying Freidman was widely thought to possibly go undrafted, but to Shanahans' credit, he would've been a highly sought-after college FA.

Hey Mike...you're not shopping for groceries and 'trying' something new each time. This is an NFL Franchise for God's sake.

OK, enough, but as spectactular as he is at coaching, he, himself is a bust on draft day way too often and, gee golly wiz, I just don't like it...sorry.

Right on the money wabbit. I have been wanting to deny this for years now but at some point you have to except the reality and that is exactly why I think our best move is to trade the 2 first round picks and go up and take Vernon Davis this guy is as near as a can't miss talent as there is in this draft. Davis playing under Shanahan the game planing genius ( not the draft genius ) will be the best up grade our team could make. There are no two players that we would likely take that would make us better. History teaches we will throw away at least one of those #1s so I say, given our drafting ineptness, lets go for the sure thing and draft Vernon Davis.

[gunns]

If I remember right, it wasnt just Reggie Williams that Denver wanted with that DJ Williams pick, they wanted Tommie Harris.

Tommie hasnt been too bad of a player.

Wow, just wow!

I'm going to have file this under my former drools, right under Urlacher and Reed, that got away. Although I like the DJWilliams pick, what might have been. :Whaaaa!:

[baja]

Wow, just wow!

I'm going to have file this under my former drools, right under Urlacher and Reed, that got away. Although I like the DJWilliams pick, what might have been. :Whaaaa!:

There were a few of us praying for Tommy Harris that draft day and yes this is truly a "what could have been" but it is not Shanahan's fault he was taken ahead of our pick. Although I was advocating moving up a couple of slots for him.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

That "Draft Chart" Cracks me up, its all about supply and demand...

ESPECIALLY ON DRAFT DAY...

People need to look at actual trades that have happened rather than sitting there and looking at the stupid chart. The trade with the Falcons should have showed everyone how off it can be.

2003- Baltimore gives up their 2nd round pick (#41 overall) and their 2004 1st round pick to the Pats for #19

2004- Buffalo trades the #43 overall, #144 overall, and their 2005 1st round pick to Dallas for the #22 overall.

So we have 2 real trades where it cost a future 1st to move from the low 40's to right around #20, but people here say that #'s 48 and 51 is a fair deal for #22 because the chart says so.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I'm going to have file this under my former drools, right under Urlacher and Reed, that got away. Although I like the DJWilliams pick, what might have been. :Whaaaa!:

Seriously, how many times do people have to point out that Ed Reed did not get away? He was not one of Shanahan's 5 targets, if Lelie wasn't there the pick was Javon Walker.

[baja]

People need to look at actual trades that have happened rather than sitting there and looking at the stupid chart. The trade with the Falcons should have showed everyone how off it can be.

2003- Baltimore gives up their 2nd round pick (#41 overall) and their 2004 1st round pick to the Pats for #19

2004- Buffalo trades the #43 overall, #144 overall, and their 2005 1st round pick to Dallas for the #22 overall.

So we have 2 real trades where it cost a future 1st to move from the low 40's to right around #20, but people here say that #'s 48 and 51 is a fair deal for #22 because the chart says so.

That's because it is not about an abstract number it is about in the heat of the draft a guy falls that you think your team needs so a pick, say #22 gets valued way out of proportion relative to the value charts because of some team's need. Sorry for stating the obvious. I think there will be a lot of teams with top ten picks looking to move down because this draft is so deep and they need help at multiple positions so denver should be able to orchestrate a favorable trade to move up for Vernon Davis if that is their desire.

[DrFate]

I certainly don't believe we are a top 5 drafting team - but I do think we are in the top half, especially since we average drafting around 2/3 down each round over the past 10 years.

I think that is a point that shouldn't be overlooked. Sure we have several memorable busts in the past decade, but we are normally drafting in the late teens or twenties.

Looking at the current roster, the biggest need is skill players on offense. I agree that the pass rush is a concern (it has been for some time). We have a RB/WR/TE corps that has to be among the worst in the league. I don't buy the argument that we should continue to 'plug in' RBs. We need a guy or two that are talented guys.

I was on the White bandwagon until these questions about his work ethic started coming up. I know he's hurt, but I don't think that excuses his weight gain and inability to do a bench press.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Denver's done incredibly well for where they've drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds (though they've never re-signed a 2nd round pick after their rookie deal was up), but all it's done is mask that they've been pretty ineffective from the 3rd round on. He can hit on RBs and TEs, but that will only get you so far.

[Requiem]

Denver's done okay, but when they don't re-sign the good guys they draft, it's pretty much a lost cause. I'm scared already for this draft, less than two weeks away. But looking at history, we're going to get one guy who does well for us. *crosses fingers*

[Odysseus]

Denver's done incredibly well for where they've drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds (though they've never re-signed a 2nd round pick after their rookie deal was up), but all it's done is mask that they've been pretty ineffective from the 3rd round on. He can hit on RBs and TEs, but that will only get you so far.

Last year's off season I think was phenominal. I really enjoyed the Broncos fixing some long held problems and surprising fans with some...what is the right word here...lucky? Lucky moves.

I wonder if the Broncos have self esteem issues. They always hire the handicapped this time of year instead getting in dominating players. I like the fact they surprise us and get guys in who nobody sees but it would be nice to see them win a frontal assault once in a while and just take a good player.

I like the fact the Broncos are working towards cheaper players is a good thing but what pisses me off is how inescapable your arguement is.

[Dos Rios]

Wabbit, if you're still around, a question for you:

What do you think of the current crop of OL players? It's always seemed to me that OL is the one position on the team indispensible to Shanahan's system, where he can't get by on smoke and mirrors (although it looks like he's learned qb is another spot). Do Myers, Alexander or Pears have a real future? Foster is hopefully a 10 year fixture. Is Hamilton really the next solution at center? Is the team really going to keep using stopgap players like House and Carlisle?

[2KBack]

I like the fact the Broncos are working towards cheaper players is a good thing but what pisses me off is how inescapable your arguement is.

This is getting me as well, I feel like I want to argue tooth and nail with Herc, but there's no way I have the ammo to win.

[youcandoit1687]

well we are drafting two 1st rounders and our salary cap will probly be close to full by the beginning of the season. we do have champ and he is a huge salary, i cant find a list of our salaries but i know al wilson is well paid,rod smith,lynch,even plummer. anybody have a site with player salaries?

[youcandoit1687]

for all you pessimists, here is a look at another teams draft history, compare it with ours
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/teams/NE
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/teams/PIT
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/teams/DEN
weve all had hits and misses, PIT has done great the last three years with their first rounders however but if u look back ull see players on other teams,players uve never heard of because they were complete misses, and sometimes theres huge players but id say theyre all about the same

[Den Smith 49]

In the interest of "use old threads".

What about Maurice Stovall, from Notre Dame. We need a reciever and a tight end, this guy is built like both, 6-5" 217.

All I know about him is what I read in the USA Today Sports Weekly.

"The wide-body receiver with a tight end's frame really came into his own as a senior. Worked hard in the training room during 2005 offseason, dropping more than 15 pounds and increasing his stamina and quickness. Impressed scots at the senior bowl workouts. Ran the 60 meters for Notre Dame's track team, but his fastest 40 at the combine was a so-so 4.57."

Anybody have anythng else on him? What round he might go in?

[BroncoMan4ever]

Not to sound like just a CU-Buffs fan but i think Denver needs to draft Jeremy Bloom in the forth or fifth. There is a reason i say this. Denver needs a quick expendable return man. Darrent Williams did the job last year and did it well, but as a starting DB i think he is too valuable to risk injury returning a punt or kick. Which is why i feel Bloom would be perfect for denver. He a great upside, can be a special teams man and maybe eventually turn into a Steve Smith type of receiver. He says he has the talent and after seeing a little of him in college i say he does too. He is a project player, but he is also a player that could pay off big time for denver in the future.

[Requiem]

Stovall is a second-round guy, who could possibly be there at our pick, but I doubt it. He'd be an excellent selection, as he'd be a terror of a target in the red zone.

[youcandoit1687]

bloom is a great athlete if anything and would be worth one of our fourth rounders imo. stovall,his tim scares me a little but he would be a nice red zone threat. the receiver class looks to be great next year so maybe if the coaches thot that stovall could improve his speed he would be worth it but i think we need immediate impact players with where we are at this year and thats why i say CJ is the man for us

[watermock]

Now see, I don't understand this approach.

I do believe this is, perhaps, the most critical draft since Elway retired...and for a lot of reasons.

On the surface, the structure is sturdy, but underneath...as in depth...there is reason for real concern.

Denver has outright sucked at drafting need, and has only marginal success in drafting depth. That, despite the wild successes of the Terrell Davis, Tom Nalen & Matt Lepsis (I know, I know, he was a college FA).

Davis, Pryce, Wilson, DJ Williams & George Foster are about the only impact players we've drafted in a DECADE.

I guess you could count Griese among the group if everyone here wasn't so anal about the guy.

Yes, the relative and admirable successes of Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Asheley Lelie, Jep Putzier...on & on...are nice & touchy feely, but you cannot build a SB roster on cast-offs & second tier FAs.

Yes, the Broncos came awfully close last year, but the underlysing structure needs some serious re-building...right NOW.

The O-line is absolutely desperate for depth, WR's are all a wish & a prayer as are the RBs, the QB is a wild card, while his back-up HAS to frighten anyone wondering what might happen if Plummer really does go down for any length of time.

The D-line are cast-offs...playing well, but that's not the point. The LBs are tops and perhaps the best representative of any draft success we've had.

Our Safeties are marginal...yes, Lynch is terrific, but the guy couldn't cover my daughter at this stage.

CB's...great!!...lucky, after all these years...Middlebrooks, O'Neil...hell, Shanahan finally had to break the bank to fill the position.

Yes, this is a critical draft...make that crucial, red light...beep, beep baby the end is near...the team HAS to hit, and hit BIG on every early pick and absolutely, positively MUST develop some depth we didn't pick up hitchhiking on I-25...c'mon.

Ahoooga...Ahoooga...Beep Beep Beep Beep....Ahooga...He Haw He Haw...Ahooga...Ahoooga...Beep beep beep...

I'm not that worried unless they don't follow my master plan...then all may be lost...

Get Vernon Davis, Lawson and Walker and screw the rest. Maybe that RB WR last in the 4th. Jerimiah Springfield or something.

[watermock]

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