Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies

[Spider]

wow I thought it was only godless heathens that brought up frivolous lawsuits ......Up next Docket # 7896042231 Klu Klux Klan is suing for the right to hate the Mud races , being in our public schools ..........
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-christians10apr10,0,6204444.story?coll=la-story-footer



Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies
Many codes intended to protect gays from harassment are illegal, conservatives argue.
By Stephanie Simon, Times Staff Writer
April 10, 2006

ATLANTA — Ruth Malhotra went to court last month for the right to be intolerant.

Malhotra says her Christian faith compels her to speak out against homosexuality. But the Georgia Institute of Technology, where she's a senior, bans speech that puts down others because of their sexual orientation.

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Malhotra sees that as an unacceptable infringement on her right to religious expression. So she's demanding that Georgia Tech revoke its tolerance policy.

With her lawsuit, the 22-year-old student joins a growing campaign to force public schools, state colleges and private workplaces to eliminate policies protecting gays and lesbians from harassment. The religious right aims to overturn a broad range of common tolerance programs: diversity training that promotes acceptance of gays and lesbians, speech codes that ban harsh words against homosexuality, anti-discrimination policies that require college clubs to open their membership to all.

The Rev. Rick Scarborough, a leading evangelical, frames the movement as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. "Christians," he said, "are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian."

In that spirit, the Christian Legal Society, an association of judges and lawyers, has formed a national group to challenge tolerance policies in federal court. Several nonprofit law firms — backed by major ministries such as Focus on the Family and Campus Crusade for Christ — already take on such cases for free.

The legal argument is straightforward: Policies intended to protect gays and lesbians from discrimination end up discriminating against conservative Christians. Evangelicals have been suspended for wearing anti-gay T-shirts to high school, fired for denouncing Gay Pride Month at work, reprimanded for refusing to attend diversity training. When they protest tolerance codes, they're labeled intolerant.

A recent survey by the Anti-Defamation League found that 64% of American adults — including 80% of evangelical Christians — agreed with the statement "Religion is under attack in this country."

"The message is, you're free to worship as you like, but don't you dare talk about it outside the four walls of your church," said Stephen Crampton, chief counsel for the American Family Assn. Center for Law and Policy, which represents Christians who feel harassed.

Critics dismiss such talk as a right-wing fundraising ploy. "They're trying to develop a persecution complex," said Jeremy Gunn, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.

Others fear the banner of religious liberty could be used to justify all manner of harassment.

"What if a person felt their religious view was that African Americans shouldn't mingle with Caucasians, or that women shouldn't work?" asked Jon Davidson, legal director of the gay rights group Lambda Legal.

Christian activist Gregory S. Baylor responds to such criticism angrily. He says he supports policies that protect people from discrimination based on race and gender. But he draws a distinction that infuriates gay rights activists when he argues that sexual orientation is different — a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait.

By equating homosexuality with race, Baylor said, tolerance policies put conservative evangelicals in the same category as racists. He predicts the government will one day revoke the tax-exempt status of churches that preach homosexuality is sinful or that refuse to hire gays and lesbians.

"Think how marginalized racists are," said Baylor, who directs the Christian Legal Society's Center for Law and Religious Freedom. "If we don't address this now, it will only get worse."

Christians are fighting back in a case involving Every Nation Campus Ministries at California State University. Student members of the ministry on the Long Beach and San Diego campuses say their mission is to model a virtuous lifestyle for their peers. They will not accept as members gays, lesbians or anyone who considers homosexuality "a natural part of God's created order."

Legal analysts agree that the ministry, as a private organization, has every right to exclude gays; the Supreme Court affirmed that principle in a case involving the Boy Scouts in 2000. At issue is whether the university must grant official recognition to a student group that discriminates.

The students say denying them recognition — and its attendant benefits, such as funding — violates their free-speech rights and discriminates against their conservative theology. Christian groups at public colleges in other states have sued using similar arguments. Several of those lawsuits were settled out of court, with the groups prevailing.

In California, however, the university may have a strong defense in court. The California Supreme Court recently ruled that the city of Berkeley was justified in denying subsidies to the Boy Scouts because of that group's exclusionary policies. Eddie L. Washington, the lawyer representing Cal State, argues the same standard should apply to the university.

"We're certainly not going to fund discrimination," Washington said

[clarker]

I think this kind of stupid, but there should not be any "speech codes that ban harsh words against homosexuality."

To me it is stupid to be homophobic and say homophobic things, but I support their right to be stupid.

Other than not being able yell fire in a crowded threatre when there is no fire, I'm not for speech codes.

But I don't think you should be able to descriminate against gays, I don't care what your religion says.

[enjolras]

The Rev. Rick Scarborough, a leading evangelical, frames the movement as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. "Christians," he said, "are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian."

What a scary quote. How the hell do policies keeping someone from hurting someone else KEEP you from being a Christian?

So you HAVE to harrass homosexuals to be Christian now? What an awesome statement...

[Spider]

your right to swing your fist ends at the end of my nose .........is this kind of case ?
I dont know I am for free speech myself , I hate censorship .......but when is enough enough ......... i would get blasted to no end if I walked up to a black man and said , you look familure , I think my grandpa owned your grandpa , or walked up to a mexican and said , I know why you dont have Bar B ques , Beans fall through the grill , or walked up to a Jew and said , The main objective in Jewish football is to get your quaterback ( the 25 cent kind ) , or walked up to a jap and say , a cold fall morning and a little Asian boy jumping on a tramp means there is a little nip in the air ......... you get the point .....But I can walk up to a homo and say , your beard also serves as a shock absorber for a cock sucker ......... or how do you fit 4 queers on a barstool ? turn it upside down , and get a good laugh doing it ......... oh well not my problem I guess

[clarker]

your right to swing your fist ends at the end of my nose .........is this kind of case ?
I dont know I am for free speech myself , I hate censorship .......but when is enough enough ......... i would get blasted to no end if I walked up to a black man and said , you look familure , I think my grandpa owned your grandpa , or walked up to a mexican and said , I know why you dont have Bar B ques , Beans fall through the grill , or walked up to a Jew and said , The main objective in Jewish football is to get your quaterback ( the 25 cent kind ) , or walked up to a jap and say , a cold fall morning and a little Asian boy jumping on a tramp means there is a little nip in the air ......... you get the point .....But I can walk up to a homo and say , your beard also serves as a shock absorber for a cork sucker ......... or how do you fit 4 queers on a barstool ? turn it upside down , and get a good laugh doing it ......... oh well not my problem I guess I think you should be able to say each and every one of those things. I don't think they should make a law banning any kind of speech, other than the old "yelling fire in a crowded threater" example.

But I think if someone says those things they should expect to be called out as an idiot.

[Spider]

I think you should be able to say each and every one of those things. I don't think they should make a law banning any kind of speech, other than the old "yelling fire in a crowded threater" example.

But I think if someone says those things they should expect to be called out as an idiot.
;) I agree , there should be no law against this , but I am not wanting to take up the Homo crusade , my position is what you do in your bedroom is your business , just dont tell me about it ...........

[clarker]

;) I agree , there should be no law against this , but I am not wanting to take up the Homo crusade , my position is what you do in your bedroom is your business , just dont tell me about it ...........I agree. I'm not taking up the Christian cause either, just free speech. I think it wrong that gays can't serve in the military in the open or get married.

[BABronco]

Agreed with the military thing. They have just as much as a right to die for their country as me. However the marriage thing I disagree with. Marriage was made for a man and a woman. They can have their thing .. but let's not call it marriage.

[BABronco]

Also, people have right to say being gay is wrong. I'll have you know,I am no gay basher. Both of my cousins are gay. I love them both and their friends are pretty cool aswell. That doesn't take away from the fact that what they are doing is wrong. I am a young Christian male; I've argued with a gay soul. How can one teach about Jesus if their freedom of speech is being restricted? Are drug users not told by Christians that what they are doing is wrong? Are drunks not told by Christians that what they are doing is wrong? The simple answer is they are. One won't change unless they realize they are a sinner. All men are sinners because it's in our nature. The goal of a christian is to become as perfect as possible in God's eyes, not the worlds. The word Christian is actually greek; it means Christ like or little Christ. In order to be a good Christian one must follow the rules and attempt to save the lost. I agree if they are just going around campus wearing God hates fags t-shirts or wherever their imagination leads in that manner is wrong. They are not only being rude but are wrong aswell for God loves us all. From Micheal Jackson to the man on here who just lost his father.

[Spider]

Also, people have right to say being gay is wrong. I'll have you know,I am no gay basher. Both of my cousins are gay. I love them both and their friends are pretty cool aswell. That doesn't take away from the fact that what they are doing is wrong. I am a young Christian male; I've argued with a gay soul. How can one teach about Jesus if their freedom of speech is being restricted? Are drug users not told by Christians that what they are doing is wrong? Are drunks not told by Christians that what they are doing is wrong? The simple answer is they are. One won't change unless they realize they are a sinner. All men are sinners because it's in our nature. The goal of a christian is to become as perfect as possible in God's eyes, not the worlds. The word Christian is actually greek; it means Christ like or little Christ. In order to be a good Christian one must follow the rules and attempt to save the lost. I agree if they are just going around campus wearing God hates fags t-shirts or wherever their imagination leads in that manner is wrong. They are not only being rude but are wrong aswell for God loves us all. From Micheal Jackson to the man on here who just lost his father.

Better yet , instead of preaching and arguing , let them sail thier own boat , you sail youres , settle up in the end

[Spider]

Agreed with the military thing. They have just as much as a right to die for their country as me. However the marriage thing I disagree with. Marriage was made for a man and a woman. They can have their thing .. but let's not call it marriage.
why ? somehow we allow gays to get married all of the sudden me and my wifes marriage is tainted ?when My Daughter gets old enough to wed ( so not looking forward to that day )that her wedding will mean less cause queers tied the knot ?
as for it being a sin , no skin off my nose , they know the score as I do , settle up in the end , I will just continue on taking care of me and mine .......

[clarker]

Better yet , instead of preaching and arguing , let them sail thier own boat , you sail youres , settle up in the endI agree with you Spider. You do your thing and I will do mine. But I like the guy's point about not hating a person even though you think they are doing wrong.

A lot of so called Christians forget that if your a true Christian your suppose to hate the sin, but love the sinner.

Anyways I disagree with him about gays and marriage, but he has the right to believe what he believes as I do.

[Spider]

I agree with you Spider. You do your thing and I will do mine. But I like the guy's point about not hating a person even though you think they are doing wrong. Yeah I should have thrown props his way , and it appears he stands for what he believes in , that I can respect

A lot of so called Christians forget that if your a true Christian your suppose to hate the sin, but love the sinner.

Anyways I disagree with him about gays and marriage, but he has the right to believe what he believes as I do.
that he does I wasnt blasting his opinion , just trying to figure out his reasoning ..... I didnt mean ot come off harsh

[clarker]

Yeah I should have thrown props his way , and it appears he stands for what he believes in , that I can respect


that he does I wasnt blasting his opinion , just trying to figure out his reasoning ..... I didnt mean ot come off harshI didn't think you were being harsh or a jerk. I have never seen you bash a guy without it coming your way first. And of course you have the right ask him about his reasoning.

I just like the way he presented his thoughts, even though I disagree with them.

[Spider]

I didn't think you were being harsh or a jerk. I have never seen you bash a guy without it coming your way first. And of course you have the right ask him about his reasoning.

I just like the way he presented his thoughts, even though I disagree with them.
;D

[BABronco]

No worries Spider. No offense taken. My reasoning is simple yet controverse. Christians are spose to save the lost souls and according to the bible homosexuality is wrong. Marriage was invented by God to bind a man and woman for life. I didn't write it but I do try my hardest to live it. I'm not saying that gays getting married will weaken the strength of your marriage or anybody elses. Yet being it God's words it shouldn't be marriage. no skin off my nose , they know the score as I do , settle up in the end , I will just continue on taking care of me and mine ....... Undoubtibly it is skin off my nose because as I've said prior we're (christians) spose to save the lost. And with what Clacker said "Hate the sin and love the sinner" I was going to use that but it is way to over used. Glad you said it though.

[Spider]

No worries Spider. No offense taken. My reasoning is simple yet controverse. Christians are spose to save the lost souls and according to the bible homosexuality is wrong. Marriage was invented by God to bind a man and woman for life. I didn't write it but I do try my hardest to live it. I'm not saying that gays getting married will weaken the strength of your marriage or anybody elses. Yet being it God's words it shouldn't be marriage. Undoubtibly it is skin off my nose because as I've said prior we're (christians) spose to save the lost. .
Fair enough , I will say no religion should be expected to regonize gay marriage or preform a cermony for queers , I dont see how you can save the lost , all you can do is plant the seed of Jesus and hope it takes ...........
Faith is afunny thing , either you have it or you dont , but you cant force faith on anyone , I dont know the bible , just recently started believing in god , when my wife had triplets , I am fully confident though I will have a severe drinking problem in the near future ;D ..........

[BABronco]

Congradulations on the triplets!! :thumbs: Your correct you can't force your faith on others but only plant a seed. Yet that seed will hopefully save them. Mind if I send you a Bible? That is if you don't have one.

[Spider]

Congradulations on the triplets!! :thumbs: Your correct you can't force your faith on others but only plant a seed. Yet that seed will hopefully save them. Mind if I send you a Bible? That is if you don't have one.
thanks .......... No thanks on the bible bro , just got my feet wet , I take 1 step at a time , thats why I have 2 feet ;D , but thanks for the offer

[BABronco]

Your welcome. Might wanna put that 2nd foot down a little faster because one never knows what tomorrow might bring.

[Spider]

Your welcome. Might wanna put that 2nd foot down a little faster because one never knows what tomorrow might bring.
well I jump into things like old people make love , slow and unsure of myself .....2 speeds slow and stop , but I will get there :D

[BABronco]

Hahaha :rofl: :rofl: that was hilarious. Great things do take time. I never went to church when I was a kid and love brought me to God. It took me about 7 months after believing in God to get baptised (which is one of the most important steps). I've only been a Christian for like 6 months now. Yeah I should have thrown props his way , and it appears he stands for what he believes in , that I can respect That made my day thanks.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I think this kind of stupid, but there should not be any "speech codes that ban harsh words against homosexuality."

To me it is stupid to be homophobic and say homophobic things, but I support their right to be stupid.

Other than not being able yell fire in a crowded threatre when there is no fire, I'm not for speech codes.

But I don't think you should be able to descriminate against gays, I don't care what your religion says.

Free speech and harassment are two different things.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

thanks .......... No thanks on the bible bro , just got my feet wet , I take 1 step at a time , thats why I have 2 feet ;D , but thanks for the offer

Robb? :D

[Spider]

Hahaha :rofl: :rofl: that was hilarious. Great things do take time. I never went to church when I was a kid and love brought me to God. It took me about 7 months after believing in God to get baptised (which is one of the most important steps). I've only been a Christian for like 6 months now. That made my day thanks.
Just keep on the road bro , be thankfull you are blessed with the spirit ........

[clarker]

Free speech and harassment are two different things.True but if you really believe in free speech you have to defend a person's right to say things you find the most offensive.

Of course there times, such as planting a flaming cross in an African American's yard or throwing a oreo cookie at a republican african American or planting a sign that says "God hates Fags" on the lawn of a gay person I would call that harassment.

It is not that hard to see when the line is crossed.

[BABronco]

Good points clarker; I agree.

[BroncoInferno]

How can one teach about Jesus if their freedom of speech is being restricted? us all.

Well, in the context of homosexuality, you can teach one about Jesus with no problems since Jesus never thought enough about the topic to comment on it.

[BABronco]

Your correct there. Yet after you have taught what you know and if the person accepts, they have to give usually alot of things up. In this case homosexuality because the Bible is against it.

[alkemical]

yes because all people who are homosexual have made the choice to be so....

[BABronco]

Exactly! Nobody is born gay. That just sounds funny.

[alkemical]

hmm, i guess i should apologize for my sharp sarcasm.

[Spider]

hmm, i guess i should apologize for my sharp sarcasm.
LOL .......... ya think

[BABronco]

Sorry .. didnt catch the sarcasim. Its a little hard to convey that over the computer unless your saying the Chiefs are amazing or something. I'd like to know how someone can be born gay...

[alkemical]

Answer me why someone has to be born 'straight'.....

[Hotrod]

Answer me why someone has to be born 'straight'.....

Im so not really getting into this mess but I'll throw out this thought......So we can reproduce and continue to exist. Its the law of nature.

[BABronco]

Easy... thats how it was ment to be. One man and one woman. Your turn.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Answer me why someone has to be born 'straight'.....

Looks like no one wants to explain.

("Just because" or "that's just the way it is" are not explanations.)

[Spider]

How come some are born with slow development ?
Autism ?
M.S. ?
we have birth defects , you telling me that someone cant be born gay ?
we are all different .........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

How come some are born with slow development ?


And how come they invariably end up being republicans and/or bush supporters?

;D

[BABronco]

My question was never answered. However, I guess I'll attempt to answer these to the best of my ability. A kid with down syndrom (sp) does not choose to be slow. The kid is there because they are spose to serve a purpose. Now remember I am not a gay basher. I refuse to believe that you can be born gay. To me thats like saying you can be born a thief or an alcoholic.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I refuse to believe that you can be born gay.

Refusing to believe something and having evidence or proof to support your belief are two different things.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

To me thats like saying you can be born a thief or an alcoholic.

Actually, there's a huge amount of scientific evidence that alcoholism is a genetic illness.

[Spider]

My question was never answered. However, I guess I'll attempt to answer these to the best of my ability. A kid with down syndrom (sp) does not choose to be slow. The kid is there because they are spose to serve a purpose. Now remember I am not a gay basher. I refuse to believe that you can be born gay. To me thats like saying you can be born a thief or an alcoholic.
I dont think you are a gay basher , nor will I bash your opinion , but I hope you understand that , I would need more to go on then your answer here

[Garcia Bronco]

This is nuts. Everybody is a blend

[Garcia Bronco]

There are people that are probably genetically gay...there are also people that choose to be gay. Either way...the result is the same.

[alkemical]

Easy... thats how it was ment to be. One man and one woman. Your turn.


Im so not really getting into this mess but I'll throw out this thought......So we can reproduce and continue to exist. Its the law of nature.



Laws of nature also dictate there are anomalies as well. Some of us are born with predispositions to substance abuse (food, alcohol, drugs) - some of us are born with mental illness, et al.

Or maybe god put gays on earth to teach judgemental religious types on their toes....

I personally believe that a % of people are born gay, and another % choose to be gay.

[Rock Chalk]

why ? somehow we allow gays to get married all of the sudden me and my wifes marriage is tainted ?when My Daughter gets old enough to wed ( so not looking forward to that day )that her wedding will mean less cause queers tied the knot ?
as for it being a sin , no skin off my nose , they know the score as I do , settle up in the end , I will just continue on taking care of me and mine .......
Good policy.

Whatever happens, in the end I only have to worry about what I did, not what some butt pirate did.

[bronco_diesel]

Laws of nature also dictate there are anomalies as well. Some of us are born with predispositions to substance abuse (food, alcohol, drugs) - some of us are born with mental illness, et al.


i agree with that...but in the end, our actions all center around choice. i had an addiction to MJ - it consumed me. but everytime i picked up the pipe, i made the choice. it was then my choice to stop.

regardless of whatever influence we have - whether it be genetics, surrounding, etc. etc. what we do is our choice.

Or maybe god put gays on earth to teach judgemental religious types on their toes....

I personally believe that a % of people are born gay, and another % choose to be gay.

i certainly do not condone hating on anyone - whether you are black, white, gay, straight, buddist or christian.

but it would be a travesty to not tell someone that they are living in a sinful way - i would hope that my words are done in love, and my life would be an example - or a light. i wish to be a light, not shine my light in everyones face.

[alkemical]

i agree with that...but in the end, our actions all center around choice. i had an addiction to MJ - it consumed me. but everytime i picked up the pipe, i made the choice. it was then my choice to stop.

regardless of whatever influence we have - whether it be genetics, surrounding, etc. etc. what we do is our choice.



i certainly do not condone hating on anyone - whether you are black, white, gay, straight, buddist or christian.

but it would be a travesty to not tell someone that they are living in a sinful way - i would hope that my words are done in love, and my life would be an example - or a light. i wish to be a light, not shine my light in everyones face.


really my dad was a schizophrenic - and i don't think he made the choice to be so? Or my best friend in HS - he dated girls, but he actually didn't get turned on by them. Turns out, he was gay. I don't think he chose to be gay, and why should he live a 'lie' and hate himself and pretend to be straight.

Sorry bud, homosexuality is NOT a choice for EVERYONE - You didn't choose to be straight, you were just wired that way.

I guess god creating gays does make some waves for religico's

[Falconer]

really my dad was a schizophrenic - and i don't think he made the choice to be so? Or my best friend in HS - he dated girls, but he actually didn't get turned on by them. Turns out, he was gay. I don't think he chose to be gay, and why should he live a 'lie' and hate himself and pretend to be straight.

Sorry bud, homosexuality is NOT a choice for EVERYONE - You didn't choose to be straight, you were just wired that way.

I guess god creating gays does make some waves for religico's

I don't really like speaking for someone, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't think he was saying that you couldn't be genetically homosexual (although this has been gone over many times, and I still am not totally convinced of it). He was saying that no matter what natural impulses and desires one has, they still have a decision to act on them. According to science I have a natural inclination to procreate as much as possible. This would mean that I have to act deny myself of my natural desires to be monogamous.

I am in your definition living a lie. Child molesters are living a lie if they are not molesting, Rapists are living a lie if they are not raping, thieves are living a lie if they are not stealing, ect...

[alkemical]

I don't really like speaking for someone, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't think he was saying that you couldn't be genetically homosexual (although this has been gone over many times, and I still am not totally convinced of it). He was saying that no matter what natural impulses and desires one has, they still have a decision to act on them. According to science I have a natural inclination to procreate as much as possible. This would mean that I have to act deny myself of my natural desires to be monogamous.

I am in your definition living a lie. Child molesters are living a lie if they are not molesting, Rapists are living a lie if they are not raping, thieves are living a lie if they are not stealing, ect...


So for you gay people are equal to child molestors, rapists, theives right?

[bronco_diesel]

I don't really like speaking for someone, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't think he was saying that you couldn't be genetically homosexual (although this has been gone over many times, and I still am not totally convinced of it). He was saying that no matter what natural impulses and desires one has, they still have a decision to act on them. According to science I have a natural inclination to procreate as much as possible. This would mean that I have to act deny myself of my natural desires to be monogamous.

I am in your definition living a lie. Child molesters are living a lie if they are not molesting, Rapists are living a lie if they are not raping, thieves are living a lie if they are not stealing, ect...

thank you. well said

[Falconer]

So for you gay people are equal to child molestors, rapists, theives right?

Right, according to your definition. It is your logic not mine. I am just pointing out the logical end to your statement. By the way, please remember that I lumped myself in that category as well.

[alkemical]

Right, according to your definition. It is your logic not mine. I am just pointing out the logical end to your statement. By the way, please remember that I lumped myself in that category as well.


No i didn't - you wanted to make a 'moral' revelation out of it. You attatched being gay to thieves. (which i don't think people are genetically predisposed to theivary... and if they are, i want the proof)

Everyone agrees that nature creates anomolies, and i think that the gay population is an anomolie much like anything else, it keeps the birth rate down.

[Falconer]

No i didn't - you wanted to make a 'moral' revelation out of it. You attatched being gay to thieves. (which i don't think people are genetically predisposed to theivary... and if they are, i want the proof)

Everyone agrees that nature creates anomolies, and i think that the gay population is an anomolie much like anything else, it keeps the birth rate down.

I am not making any moral revelation out of it. I am simply pointing out the logical conclusions based on your definition of living a lie. Fine, you can say that there is no predisposition to thievery but according to the obsessive compulsive disorder manual, Kleptomania is listed on page 61. Obsessive compulsive disorders are indeed thought to be genetically linked, so therefore some forms of thievery would be comparable to your definition of living a lie.

[BroncoInferno]

I am not making any moral revelation out of it. I am simply pointing out the logical conclusions based on your definition of living a lie. Fine, you can say that there is no predisposition to thievery but according to the obsessive compulsive disorder manual, Kleptomania is listed on page 61. Obsessive compulsive disorders are indeed thought to be genetically linked, so therefore some forms of thievery would be comparable to your definition of living a lie.

The difference is that both parties of a gay union consent to the activity, while robbery victims don't choose to be robbed, kids don't choose to be molested, etc. That is why the latter activities are wrong. There isn't any negative result from a monogamous gay union on other nonconsenting parties outside that union that would lead me to call it a sin and put it in the same class as robbery, child molestation, etc.

[Falconer]

The difference is that both parties of a gay union consent to the activity, while robbery victims don't choose to be robbed, kids don't choose to be molested, etc. That is why the latter activities are wrong. There isn't any negative result from a monogamous gay union on others that would lead me to call it a sin and put it in the same class as robbery, child molestation, etc.

I am not arguing that point. I have not spoken one word about sin, right, wrong, or in between. We are strictly talking about the inner processes of a human being and whether or not they are living a lie.

[Rohirrim]

I think I was born to be a polygamist. The Bible backs me up on that one.

[Falconer]

I think I was born to be a polygamist. The Bible backs me up on that one.

I will take your bait, where?

[BroncoInferno]

I am not arguing that point. I have not spoken one word about sin, right, wrong, or in between. We are strictly talking about the inner processes of a human being and whether or not they are living a lie.

Yes, but, correct me if I'm wrong, what you seem to be getting at is that while homosexuality may be a born trait, so are things like pedophilia and kleptomania. And that is true. But I think what you are trying to get at, and again correct me if I'm wrong, is that we as a society still find it sinful for a pedophiliac to molest or a kleptomaniac to steal, so logically one could say that a homosexual ought to be expected to do the same. The difference is that a pedophiliac must act out his natural inclination on an unwilling party. A kleptomaniac must steal from an unwilling party. A homosexual does not harm other nonconsenting individuals through their activity, so that is where the difference comes in.

[Rohirrim]

I will take your bait, where?

Check out some of those old testament guys. How many wives did Solomon have?

[alkemical]

falconer -

BI covered it - homosexuality does not harm unconsenting adults

[Falconer]

Yes, but, correct me if I'm wrong, what you seem to be getting at is that while homosexuality may be a born trait, so are things like pedophilia and kleptomania. And that is true. But I think what you are trying to get at, and again correct me if I'm wrong, is that we as a society still find it sinful for a pedophiliac to molest or a kleptomaniac to steal, so logically one could say that a homosexual ought to be expected to do the same. The difference is that a pedophiliac must act out his natural inclination on an unwilling party. A kleptomaniac must steal from an unwilling party. A homosexual does not harm other nonconsenting individuals through their activity, so that is where the difference comes in.

I will correct you, you are wrong. My main thrust of my argument, is that humans are quick to point out that they are not responsible for the actions they commit. I think that to say that one is born a certain way (unless under severe circumstances) is a cop out. If you are gay, say you are gay, don't tell me you had no other choice. I would never compare the acts of a homosexual to the acts of a pedophile or thief in any other circumstance than this. I am not exactly sure what you are saying in the bolded section, so I will not address that until I have further clarification.

[Falconer]

falconer -

BI covered it - homosexuality does not harm unconsenting adults

That is fine, however that is not what we were discussing. I probably wouldn't have posted a thing if that was what you wrote, but that was not what was being discussed.

[Old Dude]

I think I was born to be a polygamist. The Bible backs me up on that one.

I was born to be a serial polygamist. Either that, or my ex-wives were.

[BroncoInferno]

I will correct you, you are wrong. My main thrust of my argument, is that humans are quick to point out that they are not responsible for the actions they commit. I think that to say that one is born a certain way (unless under severe circumstances) is a cop out. If you are gay, say you are gay, don't tell me you had no other choice. I would never compare the acts of a homosexual to the acts of a pedophile or thief in any other circumstance than this. I am not exactly sure what you are saying in the bolded section, so I will not address that until I have further clarification.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point, but let me try to clarify what I was saying in the bolded. Even though pedophilia probably is an anomaly that certain people are born with, we as a society expect pedophiliacs to not molest because they have to act out on a nonconsenting party. A kleptomaniac may have a compulsion to steal, but we expect them to refrain from this activity because the robbery victim does not consent to be robbed. Homosexual activity does not harm nonconsenting persons, so I see no reason why society (or God, for that matter) should have any problem with it.

[Falconer]

Check out some of those old testament guys. How many wives did Solomon have?

Just because something is in a book doesn't mean that it backs up your claim. I just finished a book called Leadership Jazz, it has many stories in it and some of them are examples of bad leadership. Now just because Dupree writes of bad leadership, does not mean that he endorses it. I believe that the Bible states in both the old and new testament that a man should have one wife.

[Falconer]

Sorry if I misunderstood your point, but let me try to clarify what I was saying in the bolded. Even though pedophilia probably is an anomaly that certain people are born with, we as a society expect pedophiliacs to not molest because they have to act out on a nonconsenting party. A kleptomaniac may have a compulsion to steal, but we expect them to refrain from this activity because the robbery victim does not consent to be robbed. Homosexual activity does not harm nonconsenting persons, so I see no reason why society (or God, for that matter) should have any problem with it.

Good enough, that is what I thought you meant, but I didn't want to write about something I was unsure of. I believe that my other post clarifies what I feel about this, so I won't be repetitive. As for homosexual activity and God, I will remain silent on that as I don't feel that I am qualified to speak for Him. I do however feel that the majority of society who feel that homosexuality is wrong from a religious perspective, voice their opposition to it only because they feel it is something that God deemed as a sin. I would like to further stipulate that some people do it the right way and others do it the wrong way in my opinion.

[Hotrod]

I was born to be a serial polygamist. Either that, or my ex-wives were.

Ha!

[alkemical]

That is fine, however that is not what we were discussing. I probably wouldn't have posted a thing if that was what you wrote, but that was not what was being discussed.

It is true, people and human behaviour are regulated to certain behaviour. But if someone is born gay, what are they supposed to do - marry a woman and have kids, more gay kids at that.

Come on man, god created gay people and that's all that's to it. It's nature.

People that choose to be gay are another issue altogether - that's their choice.

Maybe you have a foot fetish, it's not 'quite' the same thing as being gay.

[Hotrod]

Ok lets do this. Ive always heard being a gay dude is a sin. Where in the Bible does it say that???

Also the arguement that gay dudes never hurt anyone is not entirely true. I know a guy who was hit on by a gay dude. Messed up his mellon pretty badly. Dude worried for weeks if he was sending off some homo vibes or something ;D

[bronco_diesel]

Ok lets do this. Ive always heard being a gay dude is a sin. Where in the Bible does it say that???

Also the arguement that gay dudes never hurt anyone is not entirely true. I know a guy who was hit on by a gay dude. Messed up his mellon pretty badly. Dude worried for weeks if he was sending off some homo vibes or something ;D

it is established in levitcus 18 as well as in romans. do you want exact verses?

[Hotrod]

it is established in levitcus 18 as well as in romans. do you want exact verses?

Good enough for me but what exactly does it say??? Are we supposed to stone them or anything?

[Northman]

wow I thought it was only godless heathens that brought up frivolous lawsuits ......Up next Docket # 7896042231 Klu Klux Klan is suing for the right to hate the Mud races , being in our public schools ..........
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-christians10apr10,0,6204444.story?coll=la-story-footer



Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies
Many codes intended to protect gays from harassment are illegal, conservatives argue.
By Stephanie Simon, Times Staff Writer
April 10, 2006

ATLANTA — Ruth Malhotra went to court last month for the right to be intolerant.

Malhotra says her Christian faith compels her to speak out against homosexuality. But the Georgia Institute of Technology, where she's a senior, bans speech that puts down others because of their sexual orientation.

ADVERTISEMENT
Malhotra sees that as an unacceptable infringement on her right to religious expression. So she's demanding that Georgia Tech revoke its tolerance policy.

With her lawsuit, the 22-year-old student joins a growing campaign to force public schools, state colleges and private workplaces to eliminate policies protecting gays and lesbians from harassment. The religious right aims to overturn a broad range of common tolerance programs: diversity training that promotes acceptance of gays and lesbians, speech codes that ban harsh words against homosexuality, anti-discrimination policies that require college clubs to open their membership to all.

The Rev. Rick Scarborough, a leading evangelical, frames the movement as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. "Christians," he said, "are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian."

In that spirit, the Christian Legal Society, an association of judges and lawyers, has formed a national group to challenge tolerance policies in federal court. Several nonprofit law firms — backed by major ministries such as Focus on the Family and Campus Crusade for Christ — already take on such cases for free.

The legal argument is straightforward: Policies intended to protect gays and lesbians from discrimination end up discriminating against conservative Christians. Evangelicals have been suspended for wearing anti-gay T-shirts to high school, fired for denouncing Gay Pride Month at work, reprimanded for refusing to attend diversity training. When they protest tolerance codes, they're labeled intolerant.

A recent survey by the Anti-Defamation League found that 64% of American adults — including 80% of evangelical Christians — agreed with the statement "Religion is under attack in this country."

"The message is, you're free to worship as you like, but don't you dare talk about it outside the four walls of your church," said Stephen Crampton, chief counsel for the American Family Assn. Center for Law and Policy, which represents Christians who feel harassed.

Critics dismiss such talk as a right-wing fundraising ploy. "They're trying to develop a persecution complex," said Jeremy Gunn, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.

Others fear the banner of religious liberty could be used to justify all manner of harassment.

"What if a person felt their religious view was that African Americans shouldn't mingle with Caucasians, or that women shouldn't work?" asked Jon Davidson, legal director of the gay rights group Lambda Legal.

Christian activist Gregory S. Baylor responds to such criticism angrily. He says he supports policies that protect people from discrimination based on race and gender. But he draws a distinction that infuriates gay rights activists when he argues that sexual orientation is different — a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait.

By equating homosexuality with race, Baylor said, tolerance policies put conservative evangelicals in the same category as racists. He predicts the government will one day revoke the tax-exempt status of churches that preach homosexuality is sinful or that refuse to hire gays and lesbians.

"Think how marginalized racists are," said Baylor, who directs the Christian Legal Society's Center for Law and Religious Freedom. "If we don't address this now, it will only get worse."

Christians are fighting back in a case involving Every Nation Campus Ministries at California State University. Student members of the ministry on the Long Beach and San Diego campuses say their mission is to model a virtuous lifestyle for their peers. They will not accept as members gays, lesbians or anyone who considers homosexuality "a natural part of God's created order."

Legal analysts agree that the ministry, as a private organization, has every right to exclude gays; the Supreme Court affirmed that principle in a case involving the Boy Scouts in 2000. At issue is whether the university must grant official recognition to a student group that discriminates.

The students say denying them recognition — and its attendant benefits, such as funding — violates their free-speech rights and discriminates against their conservative theology. Christian groups at public colleges in other states have sued using similar arguments. Several of those lawsuits were settled out of court, with the groups prevailing.

In California, however, the university may have a strong defense in court. The California Supreme Court recently ruled that the city of Berkeley was justified in denying subsidies to the Boy Scouts because of that group's exclusionary policies. Eddie L. Washington, the lawyer representing Cal State, argues the same standard should apply to the university.

"We're certainly not going to fund discrimination," Washington said




All i can say is Ruth, if you have nothing better to do than spread your hate than get a ****ing life already.

[Mile High Shack]

Good enough for me but what exactly does it say??? Are we supposed to stone them or anything?

LOL
no

a sin is a sin is a sin

[Old Dude]

Meanwhile ...

http://www.wtvq.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WTVQ/MGArticle/TVQ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137835319193&path=

Student expelled from college after he reveals that he's gay in a "Myspace" entry.

[alkemical]

it is established in levitcus 18 as well as in romans. do you want exact verses?


hey in genisis it tells you to eat the meat of the fruit and not the animals..... gen 19 i think

[Hotrod]

hey in genisis it tells you to eat the meat of the fruit and not the animals..... gen 19 i think

Ok now if thats true its seriously gonna screw up my world.

[Northman]

True but if you really believe in free speech you have to defend a person's right to say things you find the most offensive.

Of course there times, such as planting a flaming cross in an African American's yard or throwing a oreo cookie at a republican african American or planting a sign that says "God hates Fags" on the lawn of a gay person I would call that harassment.

It is not that hard to see when the line is crossed.



The line is crossed the minute you speak about hating another individual. Hate Speech is totally wrong not matter which way you try to spin it. Being a christian does not give you the right to promote hate. Individuals who do this under the christian banner are not only hypocrites but will suffer in hell far faster than any gay or lebian individual.

[Hotrod]

The line is crossed the minute you speak about hating another individual. Hate Speech is totally wrong not matter which way you try to spin it. Being a christian does not give you the right to promote hate. Individuals who do this under the christian banner are not only hypocrites but will suffer in hell far faster than any gay or lebian individual.

Is it hate speech to simply say "Its wrong" ???? Like Shack pointed out Christians are not stoning the gay dudes.

[Chimporilla]

Yet being it God's words it shouldn't be marriage. Undoubtibly it is skin off my nose because as I've said prior we're (christians) spose to save the lost. And with what Clacker said "Hate the sin and love the sinner" I was going to use that but it is way to over used. Glad you said it though.

Interesting. Let's have a gander at some other things the Christian god says, said, did, and instructed to do:

God tells Noah He intends to kill every living thing on the planet because the world has become too violent-Genesis 6:13

I believe this was history's first incident of an exploding irony meter.

God makes a covenant with Abraham and all of descendents; to seal the deal, God demands their foreskins be removed. Why mutilation of the genitals is required to make this covenant binding is never explained-Genesis 17:10

God orders Moses to lead his people out of Egypt to escape bondage. Then for reasons which are never really made clear, God decides he wants to kill Moses. Moses' wife saves him by wiping his feet with the bloody foreskin of his son-Exodus 4:24-26

And there isn't just ten commandments. There's over six hundred. Among some of the really fun ones-

"You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live"-Exodus 22:18

"Whoever curses mother or father shall be put to death"-Exodus 21:17

"One who blasphemes The Lord shall be put to death"-Leviticus 24:16

Other Old Testament Gems include:

God telling Moses that his name is really "Jealous"-Exodus 34:14

Moses being forced to wear a veil in public because talking to God has made his head glow-Exodus 34:29-35

God tells Moses that Aaron and his sons must wear underwear when they enter God's tent or they will be killed-Exodus 28:42-43

Oh! Here's one that's very pertinent to the topic: In Leviticus 20:13 God decrees that male homosexuals are to be put to death. On the lighter side of things he says nothing about lesbians.

This is another good one:

God commands the Isralites to slay the Midianites. This they do with gusto, killing every single man and taking the women and children for slaves. But still it's not enough and Moses commands them to "Kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who are virgins, keep alive for yourselves".

Shweeeet!

Some things from the NT.

Joseph wants a divorce after Mary turns up pregnant. God sends an angel to talk him out of it-Matthew 1:18-24

"Do not think I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have come not to bring peace, but a sword"-Jesus Matthew 10:34

Jesus' death triggers an invasion of zombies into Jerusalem. "The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who were dead were raised to life. They came out of their tombs and appeared to many people in the holy city"-Matthew 27:52-53 Strange that this wasn't noticed by any other writers of the day.

Matthew opens his gospel by reciting the fourteen generations of from the last king of Judah to Joseph, the earthly father of Jesus. He doesn't bolster his credibility as an historian by naming only thirteen. Matthew 1:12-16

First book burning in the name of Jesus-Acts 19:17-19

Some insight into why so many Christian fundies do and say the things they do:
"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under supervision of the law"Galations 3:10-20, 29


I could literally go on for hours and hours about these kinds of things. And these aren't the worst that are in the "Good Book". There's endorsement of slavery, bears mauling children at a prophets behest, several God commanded genocides, and of course there's that permanent domain of the unsaved, Hell.

When people believe they're divinely inspired they do things like bash gays, burn books, reject science, and generally try to pry their way into the lives of others who disagree with them. Religious fundamentalism is right now exemplified in its worst form in the Middle East. But any religion taken too far has always wound up killing lots and lots of people.

Johnny can't read? No big because two guys want to get married. Our most powerful government officials have started a phony war and have long been exposed? Who cares? There's queers who want to tie the knot. Republicans claim to be the party of small government yet they want their voters to make laws forbidding a same sex couple from getting married. The hypocrisy boggles the mind.

Laws based on religious teachings are bad news. Carried to its logical conclusion, if our laws were indeed based on the Bible, we'd look a lot more like the Taliban than even Iran does. You can't just cherry pick the things you like or agree with and then decide that's what the thing is all about. Or if you do, then you have to have the conscience and awareness to understand that your world is one of over six billion on this planet.

[bronco_diesel]

hey in genisis it tells you to eat the meat of the fruit and not the animals..... gen 19 i think

lol gen 19 talks about sodom and gamorrah

prior to the flood, this was a veggie world:

"I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be food for you. And to the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food. And it was so" (Genesis 1:29-30).

after the flood:
Genesis 9:1-3 says: "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall upon all of the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, now I give you everything."

[Old Dude]

...
Jesus' death triggers an invasion of zombies into Jerusalem. "The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who were dead were raised to life. They came out of their tombs and appeared to many people in the holy city"-Matthew 27:52-53 Strange that this wasn't noticed by any other writers of the day.
...


I don't think they count as Zombies unless they eat people.

[Chimporilla]

hey in genisis it tells you to eat the meat of the fruit and not the animals..... gen 19 i think

Cain killed Abel because God liked Abel more than Cain. Why? Cain was a farmer and all he could sacrifice to God was plants. Abel however, was a herdsman and could slaughter animals which a caused a "Pleasing aroma to God"-Genesis 4:2-5 It made Cain very jealous.

[Chimporilla]

I don't think they count as Zombies unless they eat people.


Dude, if my long dead grandpa showed up at my front door, I'm thinking
Night of the Living Dead all the way. Whether he asks for a beer or block of my grey matter, I'm not splitting hairs over terminology.

[Northman]

Is it hate speech to simply say "Its wrong" ???? Like Shack pointed out Christians are not stoning the gay dudes.


Not yet anyway, i bet at one time they just stood out and protested at abortion clinics too. Now where are they at? blowing up doctors and killing people in the name of god. Funny, i know the bible and it says nothing about having special killing priveledges. This may be a harsh example but as i was always told in church was too " love thy neighbor " not " love thy neighbor unless he is gay ". What ever happened too if you dont have anything nice to say dont say it at all?

[alkemical]

so you guys are telling me god hates vegetarians?

[Hotrod]

so you guys are telling me god hates vegetarians?

I did not see anyone say that but I would say for myself I certainly dont hate them I pitty them ;D

[bronco_diesel]

Cain killed Abel because God liked Abel more than Cain. Why? Cain was a farmer and all he could sacrifice to God was plants. Abel however, was a herdsman and could slaughter animals which a caused a "Pleasing aroma to God"-Genesis 4:2-5 It made Cain very jealous.

the animal sacrafice was a symbol of salvation in Christ. abel followed the instructions outlined by God - which reflected His plan.

cain did not - he provided his own works which was not in Gods plan of salvation. you ignore the fact that God allowed for Cain to repent and go through the plan that He provided.

you've posted a ton, and most of it seems out of anger....i see you've also been guilty of your accusations "cherry picking"

there is also a great deal of scripture that details these mysteries you struggle with. the true reality with most of what you post is: that we should understand the severity of sin.

as like cain and abel - either we get to God by the plan he outlined - salvation through Christ, or we deny God and his plan and try to do it on our own merit..

if jesus is inded the savior and laid down his life for your sins in the plan of salvation - why in the world should he recognize your works if you first deny his work for you?

[alkemical]

I see, so god hates vegtables. Not that the farming was ****ty and it wasn't his best crops he put forth.... j/k :)

i'm a vegetarian too - i don't think slaughtering animals and cooking their carcass is a 'holy' way to show sacrifice. Sounds sorta satanic to me.

[alkemical]

I did not see anyone say that but I would say for myself I certainly dont hate them I pitty them ;D


have no pity for me - i am a vegetarian - no vegan - just vegetarian (I feel if the animal isn't killed, it's ok - cheese, milk, honey, etc)

[Hotrod]

I see, so god hates vegtables. Not that the farming was ****ty and it wasn't his best crops he put forth.... j/k :)

i'm a vegetarian too - i don't think slaughtering animals and cooking their carcass is a 'holy' way to show sacrifice. Sounds sorta satanic to me.

LOL "slaughtering animals and cooking their carcass" just does not sound the same as "A medium rare New York strip smoothered in mushrooms with a baked pototo with sour cream & bacon bits"

[alkemical]

LOL "slaughtering animals and cooking their carcass" just does not sound the same as "A medium rare New York strip smoothered in mushrooms with a baked pototo with sour cream & bacon bits"


hotrod, i actually have slaughtered pigs before, and some deer, etc - i never was fond of it, but living on a farm, it's how it was done.

I don't have to eat meat to survive, and until i have to kill it and watch it die in front of me, and feel hot blood run out all over me - i'll stick to my veggies.

But you see how 'slaughtering animals and cooking their carcass' can be viewed that way ;)

PS - i prefer live veggies, i like to hear them scream when i crunch them :)

[Chimporilla]

the animal sacrafice was a symbol of salvation in Christ. abel followed the instructions outlined by God - which reflected His plan.

Is this the Christ that didn't exist yet? And why would a supposedly perfect being need anything from anyone, yet alone an animal sacrifice which was very much part of the ancient pagan religions such as Mithraism. You should check out the latter. A big lightbulb might come one.

cain did not - he provided his own works which was not in Gods plan of salvation. you ignore the fact that God allowed for Cain to repent and go through the plan that He provided.

Again, why was a barbeque more important to Yahweh than a garden party? That's what's important. Not this whole "plan" thing about a Christ that wasn't born until long, long after.

you've posted a ton, and most of it seems out of anger....i see you've also been guilty of your accusations "cherry picking"

First off, I'm not angry. I've been over this stuff literally hundreds of times in my life. I'd also care to bet I know more about the book you believe than you do and how and where its main tenets come from. Christian apologetics may resonate with you, but I know them for what they are.

there is also a great deal of scripture that details these mysteries you struggle with. the true reality with most of what you post is: that we should understand the severity of sin.

Mysteries? There's nothing mysterious about it and there's no struggle for me. There is nothing in the bible that wasn't said long before and worshipped similarly by other people in similar and dissimilar cultures. You woul be surprised at the shocking similarities of between what the Buddha said and what Jesus said.

You can call it what you want; sin, wrongdoing, etc. It's not as if these haven't been dealt with in tremendous detail since man first walked out of the cave. From Socrates to Sartre; From worship of Ra, the Egyptian sun god to the Heaven's Gate cult, the struggle to determine what it means to be human and what it is to do right and wrong has gone on since recorded history.

as like cain and abel - either we get to God by the plan he outlined - salvation through Christ, or we deny God and his plan and try to do it on our own merit..

Okay. Let's examine this briefly. What is this plan? Why do so many people disagree over it? If this plan is so obvious then why do other religions exist? If this plan was the product of an unerring mind then why do most people in the world believe in something else?

If something is perfect it needs nothing. If it needed something it would no longer be perfect. It would simply exist doing nothing because it wouldn't need to create anything nor would it need to destroy anything. It would simply be.

if jesus is inded the savior and laid down his life for your sins in the plan of salvation - why in the world should he recognize your works if you first deny his work for you?

I'm an atheist. I don't ask for supernatural beings to intervene on my behalf. Therefore I'm not asking anyone for anything.

My concern is not that people believe in a god of any kind. It's a free country, believe what you want. But what I do have a problem with is when people insist on invading the privacy of others or making law based on their religious belief. Sometimes good law and religious belief coincide and that's fine.

But I do believe in the firm seperation of church and state. Most people don't consider that seperating church from state actually protects religion from the government. What if Catholics got together and created a big enough block to elect a Cardinal president and then he started making law based on Catholicism. Ooops! Same with any other sect of Christianity or any religion whatsoever.

[Northman]

My concern is not that people believe in a god of any kind. It's a free country, believe what you want. But what I do have a problem with is when people insist on invading the privacy of others or making law based on their religious belief. Sometimes good law and religious belief coincide and that's fine.

But I do believe in the firm seperation of church and state. Most people don't consider that seperating church from state actually protects religion from the government. What if Catholics got together and created a big enough block to elect a Cardinal president and then he started making law based on Catholicism. Ooops! Same with any other sect of Christianity or any religion whatsoever.


Perfectly said, rep.

[orangenblue2]

My concern is not that people believe in a god of any kind. It's a free country, believe what you want. But what I do have a problem with is when people insist on invading the privacy of others or making law based on their religious belief. Sometimes good law and religious belief coincide and that's fine.

That is one of the better posts I've read in a long, long time...Kudos...

[Mile High Shack]

Cain killed Abel because God liked Abel more than Cain. Why? Cain was a farmer and all he could sacrifice to God was plants. Abel however, was a herdsman and could slaughter animals which a caused a "Pleasing aroma to God"-Genesis 4:2-5 It made Cain very jealous.

had nothing to do with that

Cain was jealous of Abel's sacrifices to God b/c God was more pleased b/c Abel gave his first fruits (figurative term) and really sacrificed

Cain was not doing that.....had nothing to do with meat...Cain gave leftovers to God

[alkemical]

I didn't say it as well as you MHS - but that was my understanding as well. It outlined one of the 7 sins.

[bendog]

If we could just go back to the good old days the Judas Cradle I daresay we'd have fewer gays complaining they don't get equal rights.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

[broncocalijohn]

i heard the interview with the lawyer and the teacher. She just wants to be able to say something that she is against if it is asked or pushed on her. Amazing how not accepting the "gay lifestyle" is now not accepted. Everyone has a right on this issue of agreeing or disagreeing. Is this still America?

[BABronco]

Again, why was a barbeque more important to Yahweh than a garden party? That's what's important. Not this whole "plan" thing about a Christ that wasn't born until long, long after.
The "barbeque" is more important because blood clenses sin. Ths is important because it shows how serious God takes sin.

[alkemical]

so god hates vegetarians?

Or was it that cain didn't give his 'best' in which that was the true sacrifice?

[bendog]

HE shoulda made Abraham go through with killing the kid ... not the goat kind.

[Spider]

I am starting to think Religion makes a person stupid ...... Look at Errand for example , No way anyone can be that stupid naturaly ...... it is either Religion or Drugs .........

[alkemical]

HE shoulda made Abraham go through with killing the kid ... not the goat kind.


lol

[BABronco]

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes atonement by reason of the life.

[TheDave]

Is this the Christ that didn't exist yet? And why would a supposedly perfect being need anything from anyone, yet alone an animal sacrifice which was very much part of the ancient pagan religions such as Mithraism. You should check out the latter. A big lightbulb might come one.

Again, why was a barbeque more important to Yahweh than a garden party? That's what's important. Not this whole "plan" thing about a Christ that wasn't born until long, long after.

First off, I'm not angry. I've been over this stuff literally hundreds of times in my life. I'd also care to bet I know more about the book you believe than you do and how and where its main tenets come from. Christian apologetics may resonate with you, but I know them for what they are.

Mysteries? There's nothing mysterious about it and there's no struggle for me. There is nothing in the bible that wasn't said long before and worshipped similarly by other people in similar and dissimilar cultures. You woul be surprised at the shocking similarities of between what the Buddha said and what Jesus said.

You can call it what you want; sin, wrongdoing, etc. It's not as if these haven't been dealt with in tremendous detail since man first walked out of the cave. From Socrates to Sartre; From worship of Ra, the Egyptian sun god to the Heaven's Gate cult, the struggle to determine what it means to be human and what it is to do right and wrong has gone on since recorded history.

Okay. Let's examine this briefly. What is this plan? Why do so many people disagree over it? If this plan is so obvious then why do other religions exist? If this plan was the product of an unerring mind then why do most people in the world believe in something else?

If something is perfect it needs nothing. If it needed something it would no longer be perfect. It would simply exist doing nothing because it wouldn't need to create anything nor would it need to destroy anything. It would simply be.

I'm an atheist. I don't ask for supernatural beings to intervene on my behalf. Therefore I'm not asking anyone for anything.

My concern is not that people believe in a god of any kind. It's a free country, believe what you want. But what I do have a problem with is when people insist on invading the privacy of others or making law based on their religious belief. Sometimes good law and religious belief coincide and that's fine.

But I do believe in the firm seperation of church and state. Most people don't consider that seperating church from state actually protects religion from the government. What if Catholics got together and created a big enough block to elect a Cardinal president and then he started making law based on Catholicism. Ooops! Same with any other sect of Christianity or any religion whatsoever.

Wow great post!

[orangenblue2]

Wow great post!

I concur...carry on

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I concur...carry on

Ditto! :thumbsup:

http://www.bartcop.com/kool-aid-kids.jpg

[NOLA Bronco]

Is this the Christ that didn't exist yet? And why would a supposedly perfect being need anything from anyone, yet alone an animal sacrifice which was very much part of the ancient pagan religions such as Mithraism. You should check out the latter. A big lightbulb might come one.



Again, why was a barbeque more important to Yahweh than a garden party? That's what's important. Not this whole "plan" thing about a Christ that wasn't born until long, long after.



First off, I'm not angry. I've been over this stuff literally hundreds of times in my life. I'd also care to bet I know more about the book you believe than you do and how and where its main tenets come from. Christian apologetics may resonate with you, but I know them for what they are.



Mysteries? There's nothing mysterious about it and there's no struggle for me. There is nothing in the bible that wasn't said long before and worshipped similarly by other people in similar and dissimilar cultures. You woul be surprised at the shocking similarities of between what the Buddha said and what Jesus said.

You can call it what you want; sin, wrongdoing, etc. It's not as if these haven't been dealt with in tremendous detail since man first walked out of the cave. From Socrates to Sartre; From worship of Ra, the Egyptian sun god to the Heaven's Gate cult, the struggle to determine what it means to be human and what it is to do right and wrong has gone on since recorded history.



Okay. Let's examine this briefly. What is this plan? Why do so many people disagree over it? If this plan is so obvious then why do other religions exist? If this plan was the product of an unerring mind then why do most people in the world believe in something else?

If something is perfect it needs nothing. If it needed something it would no longer be perfect. It would simply exist doing nothing because it wouldn't need to create anything nor would it need to destroy anything. It would simply be.



I'm an atheist. I don't ask for supernatural beings to intervene on my behalf. Therefore I'm not asking anyone for anything.

My concern is not that people believe in a god of any kind. It's a free country, believe what you want. But what I do have a problem with is when people insist on invading the privacy of others or making law based on their religious belief. Sometimes good law and religious belief coincide and that's fine.

But I do believe in the firm seperation of church and state. Most people don't consider that seperating church from state actually protects religion from the government. What if Catholics got together and created a big enough block to elect a Cardinal president and then he started making law based on Catholicism. Ooops! Same with any other sect of Christianity or any religion whatsoever.

Well done.

I have always felt that since you don't have to believe in god or be religious to be a citizen in the US, our laws shouldn't based on the ideas of those that do.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I have always felt that since you don't have to believe in god or be religious to be a citizen in the US, our laws shouldn't based on the ideas of those that do.

:thumbsup: So did the founders.

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/4928/magicallyreligious8cq.jpg