Broncos | Rumor alert: Lelie leaving

[Ratboy]

Broncos | Rumor alert: Lelie leaving
Sun, 9 Apr 2006 08:20:30 -0700

Bill Williamson, of the Denver Post, reports on rumor making the rounds is the Denver Broncos trading WR Ashley Lelie. Two teams mentioned as potential destinations are the Green Bay Packers and San Francisco 49ers. At this point all of the talk is just that, talk. It's unclear if there is any connection between this talk and Lelie's decision to skip the first week of the Broncos' offseason workout program to work out on his own in Arizona. Lelie is entering a contract year and he could leave Denver as a free agent after the 2006 season.

__________________________________________________ __

Sorry if it was posted, but we all seen this coming. I rather trade him now then let him walk next season. We know Shanahan doesnt put the tag on players, get rid of him now. Maybe we can get a vet receiver and still move up. Not like Packers or 49ers have anything we need anyways.



--TACO JOHN EDIT: FOR THE RECORD--

This was all reported here over two months ago (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=37811) and was summarily dismissed by Bill Williamson and swallowed up whole by several people here (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=38024).

Internet rumors have floated that the Broncos are shopping receiver Ashley Lelie, who is in the final season of his contract. Those rumors are false, Shanahan said.

"Of course they are not true, of course," Shanahan said. "This is the time of year all kinds of crazy things are said."

In Saturday's Sacramento Bee, a San Francisco official denied Internet reports that the 49ers were considering trading a first-day draft pick for Lelie. One of Lelie's agents, Doug Hendrickson, said he saw the rumors and was baffled by them.

"They are not true," Hendrickson said. "We have not heard


This information has been out for over two months already.

[Dagmar]

Bye Bye. Lelie & 15 for whatever pick they have in the first. 5 or 7 right?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

This was in another thread, and KFFL does a good job of overhyping what is actually in the BW's column from today.

[Ratboy]

Maybe Darius Watts will get a chance if Lelie is traded. I don't see us drafting Vernon Davis if we do trade up. Super Mario would be... Super.

[Ballhawk]

How much difference is there in talent between #15 and #29? I just do not see it. At our need position which is DL, TE, WR, S and G there is no true must have at #15 unless Bunkley falls, which I do not see happening. There is strong talent at CB and LB at that spot, but we would have been better off staying at 29 and keeping our picks and taking a S or G there. We have to be targeting someone by pick 6, thus the SF & GB rumors. VD and Mario have to be the target.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I still don't think there was a target, but I'm starting to think that #15 isn't going to be a great spot unless someone unexpectedly drops. They can get back more than a 3rd and a future 4th on draft day if they trade back down, so giving up the picks isn't a concern to me.

[Ballhawk]

I do not think there was a target at the time, but I think Shanny is smart enough to know #15 just isnt a great spot for us. It has been a long time since we got a true franchise player thru the draft, but we have a chance for it this year.

[cutthemdown]

Bye Bye. Lelie & 15 for whatever pick they have in the first. 5 or 7 right?
Lelie not valuable enough for that high of a jump. A more likely trade would be 15, 22 and lelie...for Walker and GB pick

[ludo21]

Maybe Darius Watts will get a chance if Lelie is traded. I don't see us drafting Vernon Davis if we do trade up. Super Mario would be... Super.

'
If Lelie goes, we have to get VD. We have to replace him with a viable weapon. I WANT Mario badly, but a receiving threat is more of a need.

I dont want Lelie gone at all, but since he is ALL but gone next year, might as well get something for him.

[Arkansas Bronco]

Lelie not valuable enough for that high of a jump. A more likely trade would be 15, 22 and lelie...for Walker and GB pick
Walker>Lelie. I would make that type of jump due to more production from WR and a better spot but other then that keep him use him this year and draft 2 good 1rst round talents and use next years first round on a WR to replace him.

[RhymesayersDU]

Maybe Darius Watts will get a chance if Lelie is traded. I don't see us drafting Vernon Davis if we do trade up. Super Mario would be... Super.
Watts will get a chance when modern science finds a way to take good hands and surgically put them on his body.

[ludo21]

Watts will get a chance when modern science finds a way to take good hands and surgically put them on his body.


yeah, leading Marshall in receiving a couple years ago............. its the hands.........


Im in the camp that he lost confidence.

He didnt just 'forget' how to catch.

[NFLBRONCO]

I still don't think there was a target, but I'm starting to think that #15 isn't going to be a great spot unless someone unexpectedly drops. They can get back more than a 3rd and a future 4th on draft day if they trade back down, so giving up the picks isn't a concern to me.

DT- Hgata and Bunkley are only ones worth 15
RB- If all three are available at 15 we can trade down and still get one at 22.
TE- 15 is too high for anyone except Vernon Davis
S- I think we wait til 61
DE- Hali Kiwi Wimbley Lawson (Do we like any of these guys) at 15 or at all.
WR- Holmes and Jackson at 15

So value at 15

Holmes
Jackson
Hali
Wimbley
Lawson
White

We can afford a trade down a few spots.

[Dagmar]

Watts will get a chance when modern science finds a way to take good hands and surgically put them on his body.
ROFL!

[Arkansas Bronco]

yeah, leading Marshall in receiving a couple years ago............. its the hands.........


Im in the camp that he lost confidence.

He didnt just 'forget' how to catch.
Not realy forgot how to catch but in col. ball you dont have superb athletes thowing the ball as hard, maybey he just hasnt got used to it yet, I am not taking up for him but he didnt have a NFL QB throwing him the ball all the time in col..

[RhymesayersDU]

yeah, leading Marshall in receiving a couple years ago............. its the hands.........


Im in the camp that he lost confidence.

He didnt just 'forget' how to catch.
Well, maybe modern science can work on inserting confidence into the heart and/or brain?

[ludo21]

Not realy forgot how to catch but in col. ball you dont have superb athletes thowing the ball as hard, maybey he just hasnt got used to it yet, I am not taking up for him but he didnt have a NFL QB throwing him the ball all the time in col..


I doubt Leftwich's arm strength has gotten much more harder.

[Dagmar]

Well, maybe modern science can work on inserting confidence into the heart and/or brain?
He could just go visit the Wizard of Oz...

[SoCalBronco]

:(

[Arkansas Bronco]

I doubt Leftwich's arm strength has gotten much more harder.
You know what you are pebably righ and i stand corerected (kind of forgot who his qb was. Damn Bourbon). I realy dont know what his problem is.

[Arkansas Bronco]

I doubt Leftwich's arm strength has gotten much more harder.
You know what you are pebably righ and i stand corerected (kind of forgot who his qb was. Damn Bourbon). I realy dont know what his problem is.

[Bronx33]

You know what you are pebably righ and i stand corerected (kind of forgot who his qb was. Damn Bourbon). I realy dont know what his problem is.

Hope you don't have to work tomorrow.

[ludo21]

You know what you are pebably righ and i stand corerected (kind of forgot who his qb was. Damn Bourbon). I realy dont know what his problem is.


I just hope he catches on(literally).

If Lelie goes we desperately need someone to step up!

[maher_tyler]

How much difference is there in talent between #15 and #29? I just do not see it. At our need position which is DL, TE, WR, S and G there is no true must have at #15 unless Bunkley falls, which I do not see happening. There is strong talent at CB and LB at that spot, but we would have been better off staying at 29 and keeping our picks and taking a S or G there. We have to be targeting someone by pick 6, thus the SF & GB rumors. VD and Mario have to be the target.
Yea i agree...i'd rather get Vernon Davis though, the next shannon sharpe IMO! Trade our other first to someone like the Niners, texans etc and maybe pick up Adrain Peterson next year...RB form Oaklahoma.

[brncs_fan]

If Lelie goes we desperately need someone to step up!
Jevon Walker ???

[ludo21]

Jevon Walker ???


if we could get him in here i would be happy.

Gotta also factor in the injury bug - THEN, theres the issue of a contract. Im not sure he is the way to go.

[RhymesayersDU]

He could just go visit the Wizard of Oz...
HAHAHAHAHA

Somebody photoshop him running down the yellow brick road.

Tin Man needed a heart, and Lion needed courage right? ;)

[maher_tyler]

DT- Hgata and Bunkley are only ones worth 15
RB- If all three are available at 15 we can trade down and still get one at 22.
TE- 15 is too high for anyone except Vernon Davis
S- I think we wait til 61
DE- Hali Kiwi Wimbley Lawson (Do we like any of these guys) at 15 or at all.
WR- Holmes and Jackson at 15

So value at 15

Holmes
Jackson
Hali
Wimbley
Lawson
White

We can afford a trade down a few spots.
Why would we trade up and then back down again...makes no sense!

[Ballhawk]

Why would we trade up and then back down again...makes no sense!

In all fairness the trade happened before the coaches started to meet and draw up their draft board.

[brncs_fan]

HAHAHAHAHA

Somebody photoshop him running down the yellow brick road.

Tin Man needed a heart, and Lion needed courage right? ;)
Been a while since you watched it without the Pink Floyd playing?

[SoCalBronco]

Please trade down from 22 Shanny!!!

QUANTITY...QUANTITY...QUANTITY!

[bpc]

I've been saying this for awhile. Socal and a few others know that I'm friends with Ashley for a long time, we played ball in college and his high school together. That being said I've heard him say on numerous occations that he doesn't feel like he is made a priority in this offense (which is true) and when they give him a opportunity to catch the ball, he usually has a big game. (which is also true) He likes Denver but I think caught up in the fact that Denver is trying to protect Jake so much, Ashley suffers big time. He would put up huge numbers basically anywhere else... KC, Indy, Philly, GB.

You gotta throw to the guy and we don't. He will leave if we don't trade him. I think its best to get somebody closer to what we are looking for like Javon Walker in a deal with the pack. Would you give up our two 1st's and Ash for Javon and their 5th? It would be mighty tempting. Javon fits this offense a lot better then Ashley does.

[ludo21]

TY for the update BPC.

It is definitely tempting to move to 2. Mario or VD?? Tough decision if it comes, and im glad to have it.

[SoCalBronco]

I've been saying this for awhile. Socal and a few others know that I'm friends with Ashley for a long time, we played ball in college and his high school together. That being said I've heard him say on numerous occations that he doesn't feel like he is made a priority in this offense (which is true) and when they give him a opportunity to catch the ball, he usually has a big game. (which is also true) He likes Denver but I think caught up in the fact that Denver is trying to protect Jake so much, Ashley suffers big time. He would put up huge numbers basically anywhere else... KC, Indy, Philly, GB.

You gotta throw to the guy and we don't. He will leave if we don't trade him. I think its best to get somebody closer to what we are looking for like Javon Walker in a deal with the pack. Would you give up our two 1st's and Ash for Javon and their 5th? It would be mighty tempting. Javon fits this offense a lot better then Ashley does.

I feel really bad for that kid. Please tell him that Bronco fans were very appreciative of his contributions during his time here. I hope Ash has a GREAT career and I hope he gets paid big time next offseason. Please let him know that we appreciate everything he did for us and how he was a class act all the time.

I will miss that kid alot.

[ludo21]

I feel really bad for that kid. Please tell him that Bronco fans were very appreciative of his contributions during his time here. I hope Ash has a GREAT career and I hope he gets paid big time next offseason. Please let him know that we appreciate everything he did for us and how he was a class act all the time.

I will miss that kid alot.


:thumbs: :strong:

I mean all he did was lead the league in YPC for 2 years straight.

I wish we would keep him, but the signs seem to be pointing to him being outta here!

[Ballhawk]

I like Ashley, but the fact is he has never been a WC WR. He is a vertical guy and we should deal him to NYG for Toomer and the Giants 2nd. Toomer is getting up there in age and I think Lelie is a perfect compliment to Plax.

[bpc]

he knows that, hes been on here.

He's told me that he will leave when he gets the chance. His potential is huge but we minimalize it here. I say we pull the trigger and deal him far away to a place like GB or SF where he cannot burn Denver later on. The last thing you want to do is see this guy go to KC, Indy, Pitt or NE... that would be a nightmare. Put him out somewhere where we will see him once every 4 years or the super bowl if they make it that far.

[fdf]

Why would we trade up and then back down again...makes no sense!

Because we netted more value in the draft (the point system) than we gave up by a big margin. That means if we trade down, we can expect to get more back than we traded away.

It's as if someone offered to exchange give you a $10 in exchange for a $5. You take the deal.

[RhymesayersDU]

Been a while since you watched it without the Pink Floyd playing?
haha, I've actually never done that, but I wouldn't mind trying. I remember seeing an MTV News thing on it or something, a long time ago, and thinking it was cool. What song is it? You start it when the lion roars or something, right?

Perhaps I should download the Floyd song and rent the Oz.. Sounds like something cool to get high to.

[Kaylore]

Ash was an asset, and will be missed but he doesn't fit this style of offense. I see him really doing well in a dome, pass-heavy offense. His style is more rams and Colts than it is Broncos and steelers. Also, I think he wanted to play somewhere warm and while Colorado is one of the sunniest states, winters here aren't known for being seventy degrees and clear skies (thought that happens more than you'd think.)

If it's true I wish him well and hope he really blossoms into the kind of grat receiver that he can be.

[Play2win]

Its not that ASH doesn't fit "Our style of Offense", its that ASH doesn't fit our QB. Or what our QB is capable of doing...

[Kaylore]

Its not that ASH doesn't fit "Our style of Offense", its that ASH does fit our QB. Or what our QB is capable of doing...
Do you mean "doesn't" fit our QB?

[Ratboy]

Watts will get a chance when modern science finds a way to take good hands and surgically put them on his body.

The hands theory is proven to be wrong.

COLLEGE: In 48 career games at Marshall University, Watts made 272 catches for 4,031 yards (14.8 avg.) with 47 touchdowns. His 272 career receptions ranked fifth all-time in NCAA Division I-A history and were a Mid-American Conference record while only Troy Edwards of Louisiana Tech (50, 1996-98) had more scoring grabs in a career in NCAA Division I-A annals than Watts' MAC-record 47 career touchdowns. Additionally, his 4,031 career receiving yards were topped only by Mike Barber (4,262, 1985-88) in Marshall's history. Nicknamed "Spider," the athletic receiver drew many comparisons to former Marshall star receiver Randy Moss and was one of 11 semifinalists for the Biletnikoff Award, given to the nation's top receiver, in his first year as a starter in 2001. A team captain for the second consecutive season as a senior, Watts caught 74 passes for 968 yards (13.1 avg.) with 11 touchdowns. A preseason All-America selection as a junior, Watts earned first-team All-MAC honors with 71 catches for 1,030 yards (14.7 avg.) and 12 touchdowns and became the MAC's all-time touchdown receptions leader. He picked up first-team All-MAC accolades as a sophomore in 2001 and was one of 11 semifinalists for the Biletnikoff Award, posting career bests in receptions (91) and receiving yards (1,417)—a 15.6 yards-per-reception average—to go along with an NCAA-best 18 touchdowns that ranked third on Marshall's single-season list. His 91 catches ranked fourth all-time in Marshall history for a single-season total, and he posted the most catches in a season since Marshall returned to Division I-A competition in surpassing the 90 catches by Moss in 1997. He tied for the second-most receptions in league history, his yardage total was third best and his touchdown total tied him for the second best in league history. He was one of only two true freshmen to see playing time for Marshall, starting four games to record 36 catches for 616 yards (17.1 avg.) with six touchdowns. He also returned 10 kicks for 203 yards (20.3 avg.) with a long return of 51 yards.

[Play2win]

Do you mean "doesn't" fit our QB?
Something like that... ;)

let me do something about that... Thanks... ;D

[Dr. Broncenstein]

The hands theory is proven to be wrong.

COLLEGE: In 48 career games at Marshall University, Watts made 272 catches for 4,031 yards (14.8 avg.) with 47 touchdowns. His 272 career receptions ranked fifth all-time in NCAA Division I-A history and were a Mid-American Conference record while only Troy Edwards of Louisiana Tech (50, 1996-98) had more scoring grabs in a career in NCAA Division I-A annals than Watts' MAC-record 47 career touchdowns. Additionally, his 4,031 career receiving yards were topped only by Mike Barber (4,262, 1985-88) in Marshall's history. Nicknamed "Spider," the athletic receiver drew many comparisons to former Marshall star receiver Randy Moss and was one of 11 semifinalists for the Biletnikoff Award, given to the nation's top receiver, in his first year as a starter in 2001. A team captain for the second consecutive season as a senior, Watts caught 74 passes for 968 yards (13.1 avg.) with 11 touchdowns. A preseason All-America selection as a junior, Watts earned first-team All-MAC honors with 71 catches for 1,030 yards (14.7 avg.) and 12 touchdowns and became the MAC's all-time touchdown receptions leader. He picked up first-team All-MAC accolades as a sophomore in 2001 and was one of 11 semifinalists for the Biletnikoff Award, posting career bests in receptions (91) and receiving yards (1,417)—a 15.6 yards-per-reception average—to go along with an NCAA-best 18 touchdowns that ranked third on Marshall's single-season list. His 91 catches ranked fourth all-time in Marshall history for a single-season total, and he posted the most catches in a season since Marshall returned to Division I-A competition in surpassing the 90 catches by Moss in 1997. He tied for the second-most receptions in league history, his yardage total was third best and his touchdown total tied him for the second best in league history. He was one of only two true freshmen to see playing time for Marshall, starting four games to record 36 catches for 616 yards (17.1 avg.) with six touchdowns. He also returned 10 kicks for 203 yards (20.3 avg.) with a long return of 51 yards.

2005: Watts couldn't catch crabs from a 2 dollar whore. Whether the problem stems from a musculoskeletal injury vs a fractured psyche is up for debate. Most rational fans found it unacceptable that a professional reciever could not recieve.

[Kaylore]

Something like that... ;)

let me do something about that... Thanks... ;D
I have many tipos. :D

But seriously I don't think that it's true that Jake is the reason Ash is having trouble. Someone (who knows him personally) hit the nail on the head and that's that he's underutilized. Jake has shown he can throw to Lelie many times.

Look at the Raiders game at Invesco. We knew the type of coverage they were going to run and Lelie was the go-to guy in that game. Jake and lelie were running on the Raiders all game long. When our offense decides to make him a critical cog in our offensive scheme then he has a chance to step up, but our run first, ball protect, clock burn offense, especially in the second half, isn't the kind of thing that speed demons like to play in or can be best utilized in.

[RhymesayersDU]

The hands theory is proven to be wrong.

COLLEGE: In 48 career games at Marshall University, Watts made 272 catches for 4,031 yards (14.8 avg.) with 47 touchdowns. His 272 career receptions ranked fifth all-time in NCAA Division I-A history and were a Mid-American Conference record while only Troy Edwards of Louisiana Tech (50, 1996-98) had more scoring grabs in a career in NCAA Division I-A annals than Watts' MAC-record 47 career touchdowns. Additionally, his 4,031 career receiving yards were topped only by Mike Barber (4,262, 1985-88) in Marshall's history. Nicknamed "Spider," the athletic receiver drew many comparisons to former Marshall star receiver Randy Moss and was one of 11 semifinalists for the Biletnikoff Award, given to the nation's top receiver, in his first year as a starter in 2001. A team captain for the second consecutive season as a senior, Watts caught 74 passes for 968 yards (13.1 avg.) with 11 touchdowns. A preseason All-America selection as a junior, Watts earned first-team All-MAC honors with 71 catches for 1,030 yards (14.7 avg.) and 12 touchdowns and became the MAC's all-time touchdown receptions leader. He picked up first-team All-MAC accolades as a sophomore in 2001 and was one of 11 semifinalists for the Biletnikoff Award, posting career bests in receptions (91) and receiving yards (1,417)—a 15.6 yards-per-reception average—to go along with an NCAA-best 18 touchdowns that ranked third on Marshall's single-season list. His 91 catches ranked fourth all-time in Marshall history for a single-season total, and he posted the most catches in a season since Marshall returned to Division I-A competition in surpassing the 90 catches by Moss in 1997. He tied for the second-most receptions in league history, his yardage total was third best and his touchdown total tied him for the second best in league history. He was one of only two true freshmen to see playing time for Marshall, starting four games to record 36 catches for 616 yards (17.1 avg.) with six touchdowns. He also returned 10 kicks for 203 yards (20.3 avg.) with a long return of 51 yards.
I heard Ryan Leaf was pretty good in college too.

Look, I'm not a Watts hater, I'd love for him to be the guy, and I root for all Broncos to do well and help the team win. But with that said, he couldn't even crack our #3 spot, much less be relied on to take Lelie's spot.

[Ratboy]

I heard Ryan Leaf was pretty good in college too.

Look, I'm not a Watts hater, I'd love for him to be the guy, and I root for all Broncos to do well and help the team win. But with that said, he couldn't even crack our #3 spot, much less be relied on to take Lelie's spot.

Thats not the arguement. Everyone says Watts has no hands, They're using his injury from High School(?) as an escape goat, which obviously didn't effect him in college, and wouldnt effect him now. If he doesn't have the skills to convert to a professional level, thats different. Watts can catch and has to be given a shot to show it.

[Kaylore]

I heard Ryan Leaf was pretty good in college too.

Did you see Maurice Clarett in that Championship game!!?!?!

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jan-03-Fri-2003/photos/sports.jpg

teh B3ST 3V@R!!!!!!!!!!

[Ratboy]

Did you see Maurice Clarett in that Championship game!!?!?!

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jan-03-Fri-2003/photos/sports.jpg

teh B3ST 3V@R!!!!!!!!!!

Clarett had the skills, too bad he had the brains of a 3 year old child and a work habit like.. well nevermind, you get the point.

[Play2win]

I have many tipos. :D

But seriously I don't think that it's true that Jake is the reason Ash is having trouble. Someone (who knows him personally) hit the nail on the head and that's that he's underutilized. Jake has shown he can throw to Lelie many times.

Look at the Raiders game at Invesco. We knew the type of coverage they were going to run and Lelie was the go-to guy in that game. Jake and lelie were running on the Raiders all game long. When our offense decides to make him a critical cog in our offensive scheme then he has a chance to step up, but our run first, ball protect, clock burn offense, especially in the second half, isn't the kind of thing that speed demons like to play in or can be best utilized in.

I see where you are coming from. Its just that now I am really thinking of JAKE as our QB as a major offensive BOTTLENECK.

The only position that we can make better is the RB. We will still have a good running game because of the bootlegs...

BUT adding other Skill players can only help so much. And we wont be getting the value out of them that they are worth. Case in point, ASH...

Thats why I think we can get our offense only to a certain point with JAKE. It might be good enough to win a superbowl if our defense is really coming on...

So, if we are champions it will really be DESPITE JAKE... ;D

I think if we had a QB that delivered the ball to the right person at the right time with good accuracy, ASH could be Awesome...

JAKE just can't do that...

[Requiem]

I'm going to miss him too. Ashley, thanks for all the memories.

[RhymesayersDU]

Thats not the arguement. Everyone says Watts has no hands, They're using his injury from High School(?) as an escape goat, which obviously didn't effect him in college, and wouldnt effect him now. If he doesn't have the skills to convert to a professional level, thats different. Watts can catch and has to be given a shot to show it.
Well then, as it seems to me, a WR needs three things:
-Hands/Catching ability
-Speed/Route Running
-Brains/Playbook Understanding

He's gotta be lacking one or more of these. Like I said, I wish the guy was a stud, but if he can't even be our #3 receiver, how can we rely on him to take Ash's spot? If he was our consistent #3, I would be open to him taking the responsibility of the #2 receiver spot. But unfortunately, Shanny went with other guys at the #3,4,etc WR spots in the game, and I have to imagine there's a reason for it.

[Play2win]

You know same rumor in this same offseason, so I'm sticking with the old saying, Seeing is Believing...

[Kaylore]

See I'm totally in the opposite boat. There were times when things broke down and Jake was the only one we could lean on. He and Rod are the only offensive weapons who have shown the ability to make plays in the clutch consistantly. You don't have the kind of offense that we do, rated as high as it is, without a good quarterback. If Jake were as crappy as many believe, than the players around him mus be the most amazing offensive weapons in the NFL to be able to "lift up his stats" to a respectable lable.

Where you see a Quarterback holding Ash back, I see a receiver on a run first offense that throws mostly to Rod smith and tight ends.

[Play2win]

Well then, as it seems to me, a WR needs three things:
-Hands/Catching ability
-Speed/Route Running
-Brains/Playbook Understanding

He's gotta be lacking one or more of these. Like I said, I wish the guy was a stud, but if he can't even be our #3 receiver, how can we rely on him to take Ash's spot? If he was our consistent #3, I would be open to him taking the responsibility of the #2 receiver spot. But unfortunately, Shanny went with other guys at the #3,4,etc WR spots in the game, and I have to imagine there's a reason for it.


This is going to be his magical 3rd year in the system...

I still believe in the 3-year rule when it comes to Receivers...

[Ratboy]

Watts also had an ankle injury that kept him from playing. I like Lelie a lot, but Watts can do the same thing as Lelie, Go deep and get the ball underthrown. Watts shown he can run awesome routes, he just needs the chance to show he can play at the NFL level. Lelie took 3 years to reach 1000, before that people said he couldnt catch and he was a bust, typical i guess..

[RhymesayersDU]

This is going to be his magical 3rd year in the system...

I still believe in the 3-year rule when it comes to Receivers...
I hope you're right. Believe me when I say, I know I've done a lot of Watts bashing in this thread, but it's nothing personal. I'm hoping he goes out there and lights the NFL on fire, and I'll cheer him when he does.

But, before he does that, before he proves it on the field, I personally wouldn't let Ash go for nothing hoping that Watts can pick up the slack.

[Requiem]

Watts should be able to excel for us. He gets unbelievable separation, he has a shot and succeeding.

[Ratboy]

Watts should be able to excel for us. He gets unbelievable separation, he has a shot and succeeding.

He has a shot, if Shanahan will give him one.

[Play2win]

See I'm totally in the opposite boat. There were times when things broke down and Jake was the only one we could lean on. He and Rod are the only offensive weapons who have shown the ability to make plays in the clutch consistantly. You don't have the kind of offense that we do, rated as high as it is, without a good quarterback. If Jake were as crappy as many believe, than the players around him mus be the most amazing offensive weapons in the NFL to be able to "lift up his stats" to a respectable lable.

Where you see a Quarterback holding Ash back, I see a receiver on a run first offense that throws mostly to Rod smith and tight ends.

I fully believe Shanahan's version of the WCO is a fairly down the field type, with a STRONG running game to back it up, and provide those down the field miss-matches.

We are missing a physical pass-catching presence in the middle, be that WR or TE, or, preferably, BOTH.

But, still, ASH gets open. He got open ALOT last year on the deeper crossing pattern. Jake made attempts, but after so many yards down the field he would be better off throwing a frisbee, it probably would have gotten closer... ;D

Listen, Jake does alot of good things, and he keeps us very competitive, but...

To take us to the next level, offensively, He is our BOTTLENECK. We aren't going to improve that much on offense no matter who we get as long as JAKE is still our QB. No matter who we get. Javon Walker, Vernon Davis or whoever...

I think Shanahan know this. This is why we got Champ, this is why we are making a real push to make our defense Top-Notch...

Because our offense has a definite ceiling with JAKE as our QB...

[Play2win]

I hope you're right. Believe me when I say, I know I've done a lot of Watts bashing in this thread, but it's nothing personal. I'm hoping he goes out there and lights the NFL on fire, and I'll cheer him when he does.

But, before he does that, before he proves it on the field, I personally wouldn't let Ash go for nothing hoping that Watts can pick up the slack.

I hear ya. The one thing about WATTS that jumps out at me is his FREAKISH "Quicks". He can twist and start and stop just quicker that everybody else around him.

He makes everybody else around him look like they are moving in slow motion. (and believe me, they're not...)

Last person I can remember like that was a YOUNG Gary Payton...

[ZachKC]

Bye Bye. Lelie & 15 for whatever pick they have in the first. 5 or 7 right?
A first round pick for Lelie? Did I read this right?

ROFL! ROFL! ROFL! ROFL!

Its late...maybe I read that wrong. Who knows...

[ludo21]

He has a shot, if Shanahan will give him one.


he has a shot, if he EARNS it.

Shanny will let him try if he proves in practice and in TC that he is worthy.

[Kaylore]

Because our offense has a definite ceiling with JAKE as our QB...
I suppose but I think that that ceiling is much higher than you're giving him credit for.

[Play2win]

I suppose but I think that that ceiling is much higher than you're giving him credit for.
We'll see...

And I WILL hope for the BEST!! ;D

[brncs_fan]

A first round pick for Lelie? Did I read this right?

ROFL! ROFL! ROFL! ROFL!

Its late...maybe I read that wrong. Who knows...
No, you didn't read it right.

The deal proposed was to packed Lelie AND our 15th pick up, and trade them to San Fran for their pick in the first round.

Lelie by himself might net a low second, but probably high third.

[Killericon]

Good ridance. I hope he brings us up to Vernon Davis-drafting position in the draft.

[ZachKC]

No, you didn't read it right.

The deal proposed was to packed Lelie AND our 15th pick up, and trade them to San Fran for their pick in the first round.

Lelie by himself might net a low second, but probably high third.
Ah, fantastic. I thought I might have been off...

Whew...

[Vegas_Bronco]

Lelie leaving Denver will come back to haunt us. This guy can blow your doors off and will develop well under a better WR coach. I hope he stays on for at least 1 more year and get's some decent throws from Jake. Denver would benefit to throw to him more this year and trade him before the trade deadline. He is still about 80% finished with his highlight reel and needs a few more grabs to show he can be a complete WR. I like the Hawaiian man and with a more accurate QB would be a star.

[maher_tyler]

See I'm totally in the opposite boat. There were times when things broke down and Jake was the only one we could lean on. He and Rod are the only offensive weapons who have shown the ability to make plays in the clutch consistantly. You don't have the kind of offense that we do, rated as high as it is, without a good quarterback. If Jake were as crappy as many believe, than the players around him mus be the most amazing offensive weapons in the NFL to be able to "lift up his stats" to a respectable lable.

Where you see a Quarterback holding Ash back, I see a receiver on a run first offense that throws mostly to Rod smith and tight ends.
Very good point!

[Vegas_Bronco]

For those of you soliciting Jake as a 'clutch' quarterback - think of the 2003, 2004 seasons. Red zone and third down passing percentages were horrible at best with so called 'mr. clutch'. I like Jake and really hope his success continues but all touting goes to our defense and running game (offensive line).

[yavoon]

This is going to be his magical 3rd year in the system...

I still believe in the 3-year rule when it comes to Receivers...

like lelie right?

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Watts also had an ankle injury that kept him from playing. I like Lelie a lot, but Watts can do the same thing as Lelie, Go deep and get the ball underthrown. Watts shown he can run awesome routes, he just needs the chance to show he can play at the NFL level. Lelie took 3 years to reach 1000, before that people said he couldnt catch and he was a bust, typical i guess..

He's a second round pick who was given every oppertunity in the world to win the #3 job last year. The hang up wasn't an ankle injury. It was the repeated doinks off the left and right hand in training camp and preseason games...

[Kaylore]

For those of you soliciting Jake as a 'clutch' quarterback - think of the 2003, 2004 seasons. Red zone and third down passing percentages were horrible at best with so called 'mr. clutch'. I like Jake and really hope his success continues but all touting goes to our defense and running game (offensive line).
Did you know that he's at the top of the league for number of fourth quarter comebacks? I think he's second behind Peyton Manning.

[Atlas]

How much difference is there in talent between #15 and #29? I just do not see it. At our need position which is DL, TE, WR, S and G there is no true must have at #15 .

I agree with that except for the WR part. The top 3 or 4 WRs will be gone by the 29th pick.

In fact the 15th slot is perfect for getting a WR. At 15 you can get the one you like without overpaying ;I.E. top 10 money; After 15 the WRs will start coming off the board.

[Ballhawk]

I agree with that except for the WR part. The top 3 or 4 WRs will be gone by the 29th pick.

In fact the 15th slot is perfect for getting a WR. At 15 you can get the one you like without overpaying ;I.E. top 10 money; After 15 the WRs will start coming off the board.
I dont see more than 2 going in round 1, I think Moss drops to the 2nd and if Philly goes after the NT then there is a chance that one of the top 2 will be there at #22, but yes WR is somewhat decent value although this is a very weak WR class.

[Atlas]

Lelie not valuable enough for that high of a jump. A more likely trade would be 15, 22 and lelie...for Walker and GB pick

Denver will have to work out a new deal with Walker before making the trade. I wonder what kind of contract he is looking for? A WR that has had one good year and is coming off a torn ACL? I don't know but there should be some give and take on it.

[Ballhawk]

Denver will have to work out a new deal with Walker before making the trade. I wonder what kind of contract he is looking for? A WR that has had one good year and is coming off a torn ACL? I don't know but there should be some give and take on it.
I thought we may be looking at Walker, but now I think it is a bluff. Let me say this for the record, I want Mario in this draft, but I think the target is VD. I will be more than pleased with that, and I think Shanny is thinking that VD and what we have on roster (maybe a june cut veteran) will make up for the loss of Lelie.

Edit: Not bagging on Lelie, but Shanny really does use him as a decoy most of the time. VD would demand double coverage giving us the same thing Lelie did for 90% of the snaps.

[Atlas]

I thought we may be looking at Walker, but now I think it is a bluff. Let me say this for the record, I want Mario in this draft, but I think the target is VD. I will be more than pleased with that, and I think Shanny is thinking that VD and what we have on roster (maybe a june cut veteran) will make up for the loss of Lelie.

Edit: Not bagging on Lelie, but Shanny really does use him as a decoy most of the time. VD would demand double coverage giving us the same thing Lelie did for 90% of the snaps.

Draft projections for Mario are from #2 to #5. It would cost Denver too much to move that far up. I like Denver staying where they are and grabbing Jackson/Holmes and the Best Available Athlete at 22, but I also wouldn't mind if Denver traded down and got a 3rd rounder since they don't have one. Lots of great players are still going to be around in the 3rd.

[Rausch]

He has all the tools there's just........SOMETHING......Lord only knows what, keeping him from being what he should be.

[Taco John]

FOR THE RECORD:

This was all reported here over two months ago (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=37811) and was summarily dismissed by Bill Williamson and swallowed up whole by several people here (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=38024).

Internet rumors have floated that the Broncos are shopping receiver Ashley Lelie, who is in the final season of his contract. Those rumors are false, Shanahan said.

"Of course they are not true, of course," Shanahan said. "This is the time of year all kinds of crazy things are said."

In Saturday's Sacramento Bee, a San Francisco official denied Internet reports that the 49ers were considering trading a first-day draft pick for Lelie. One of Lelie's agents, Doug Hendrickson, said he saw the rumors and was baffled by them.

"They are not true," Hendrickson said. "We have not heard


This information has been out for over two months already.

[Ballhawk]

Draft projections for Mario are from #2 to #5. It would cost Denver too much to move that far up. I like Denver staying where they are and grabbing Jackson/Holmes and the Best Available Athlete at 22, but I also wouldn't mind if Denver traded down and got a 3rd rounder since they don't have one. Lots of great players are still going to be around in the 3rd.

It would cost Denver #15 and #22 to move to 5 according to the value charts. Being the only team with 2 1st rounders also gives us a little leverage.

[Kaylore]

FOR THE RECORD:

This was all reported here over two months ago (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=37811) and was summarily dismissed by Bill Williamson and swallowed up whole by several people here (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=38024).




This information has been out for over two months already.
The Orange Mane conintues to show why it is better than traditional "old media" news sources.

[Ballhawk]

This information has been out for over two months already.


Where there is smoke...

[Rausch]

FOR THE RECORD:

This was all reported here over two months ago (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=37811) and was summarily dismissed by Bill Williamson and swallowed up whole by several people here (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=38024).




This information has been out for over two months already.

So I don't have a fortune in Kenya waiting for me?...

[Taco John]

The Orange Mane conintues to show why it is better than traditional "old media" news sources.



I wouldn't go that far... yet... but I will say that we are equally sincere to providing a conduit for Broncos news and information as any of the Denver papers. Bill Williamson has access. We don't. In thier wisdom, the Broncos have a policy against allowing press credentials to sites like this. When I spoke with the representatives in charge of such things at Broncos headquarters this past offseason, I was treated like I was from Mars.

If they knew what I was aware of during the Trevor Pryce trade talks, they would think twice about keeping the Orange Mane at an arms length.

[broncohaven]

Here's a scenario I would love to see. Deal #15, #22, and Lelie to the Packers for Jevon Walker and #5.

We upgrade the WR position and are in position to take an elite player. We won't get Mario who will go to the Saints at #2, but we can get Vernon Davis who I think will change the TE position in the league. He's taller than Lelie, equally as fast, and at 260 lbs won't have much trouble getting off the line. He's the rarest athlete in teh draft outside of Vince Young, and he'll be a weapon that could be scary good in the hands of two offensive minds like Mike and Mike.

We could possibly trade down a few spots from #5 and still get Davis depending on what's going on. But in Walker we would have a WR who can play the whole field, and in Davis we have a player with unlimited potential. I like the idea of that.

[BroncoInferno]

Not realy forgot how to catch but in col. ball you dont have superb athletes thowing the ball as hard, maybey he just hasnt got used to it yet, I am not taking up for him but he didnt have a NFL QB throwing him the ball all the time in col..

Leftwich was his QB at least part of the time at Marshall. He had no troubles catching his passes, and Byron certainly has a big league arm. Watts lost his confidence; it has nothing to do with "the claw". Hopefully, he will get his confidence back. The thing that frustrated me last season was that he seemed to be getting it together between the preseason finale and the opener. He had 3 catches and 2 TDs in the former, and caught both passes thrown his way in the latter. Then, for whatever reason, he never got on the field after that point just when it seemed he might be coming around. I guess he was still dropping passes in practice, but to me it seems you regain confidence by performing in the actual games, and he was starting to do that. I wish he would have been given more of a chance on game day. Hopefully the staff will give him a fair shake to get the #3 job.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

FOR THE RECORD:

This was all reported here over two months ago (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=37811) and was summarily dismissed by Bill Williamson and swallowed up whole by several people here (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=38024).

This information has been out for over two months already.

and all he did with trading up for Davis is repeat what others have speculated. There was no substance to his Sunday column.

[BroncoInferno]

I suppose but I think that that ceiling is much higher than you're giving him credit for.

Yep. People are grossly overestimating the talent on offense. Our offensive talwent is mediocre at best. It is Shanny's brillance at strategy and play-calling that puts us in the top 5 every year production wise. Where the lack of talent shows up the most is when we fall behind and Shanny can't use smoke and mirrors to get it done. People blame this on Jake, but why was he able to rack up so many comebacks in Arizona if he is not good at coming from behind? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. To say that a talent upgrade would not help the passing game because of Jake is absurd, particularly if we get a receiver or two who can do something consistently besides go deep.

[Man-Goblin]

Here's a scenario I would love to see. Deal #15, #22, and Lelie to the Packers for Jevon Walker and #5.

We upgrade the WR position and are in position to take an elite player. We won't get Mario who will go to the Saints at #2, but we can get Vernon Davis who I think will change the TE position in the league. He's taller than Lelie, equally as fast, and at 260 lbs won't have much trouble getting off the line. He's the rarest athlete in teh draft outside of Vince Young, and he'll be a weapon that could be scary good in the hands of two offensive minds like Mike and Mike.

We could possibly trade down a few spots from #5 and still get Davis depending on what's going on. But in Walker we would have a WR who can play the whole field, and in Davis we have a player with unlimited potential. I like the idea of that.

I'd love to see it too, but I think it may be impossible with the Broncos cap situation. They would have to re-work Walkers deal (he's asking for a huge contract) AND find a way to pay a top 5 pick AND sign their remaining draft picks. Lelie's base salary coming off the books would help, but the original bonus money would still count against the cap this year if he's traded.

It all just makes such a scenario very unlikely.

[x123z]

Watson is no Bobby Turner and as much as I liked Steve as a player I am not sold on him as a wide receiver coach.

[Odysseus]

I wouldn't go that far... yet... but I will say that we are equally sincere to providing a conduit for Broncos news and information as any of the Denver papers. Bill Williamson has access. We don't. In thier wisdom, the Broncos have a policy against allowing press credentials to sites like this. When I spoke with the representatives in charge of such things at Broncos headquarters this past offseason, I was treated like I was from Mars.

If they knew what I was aware of during the Trevor Pryce trade talks, they would think twice about keeping the Orange Mane at an arms length.

Players are accessible but the team is not. I don't think Shanahan will ever embrace something he doesn't have full control over. Sorry Taco. You'll have to provide him a sacrifice. Bob's head on a pike?

Bill Willaimson doesn't even have a desk. He gets phone calls in his trailer and some guy named Bobo tells him what to write. The last time Bill tried to write something that wasn't a puff piece the editor took away all his microwave food for a week. The guy nearly starved to death. Poor Bill. :clown:

I think if the Mane ran the Broncos we would draft better than any team in the NFL, have a new coaching staff every year, be around 8-8, and have chronic salary cap problems because of our penchant for high dollar players. Bowlen would sell the team to Al Davis just to spite us.

[Arkansas Bronco]

Leftwich was his QB at least part of the time at Marshall. He had no troubles catching his passes, and Byron certainly has a big league arm. Watts lost his confidence; it has nothing to do with "the claw".
I already came back and said I forgot Leftwich was his QB I was pretty well off when i posted that.

[Mile High Shack]

Leftwich was his QB at least part of the time at Marshall. He had no troubles catching his passes, and Byron certainly has a big league arm. Watts lost his confidence; it has nothing to do with "the claw". Hopefully, he will get his confidence back. The thing that frustrated me last season was that he seemed to be getting it together between the preseason finale and the opener. He had 3 catches and 2 TDs in the former, and caught both passes thrown his way in the latter. Then, for whatever reason, he never got on the field after that point just when it seemed he might be coming around. I guess he was still dropping passes in practice, but to me it seems you regain confidence by performing in the actual games, and he was starting to do that. I wish he would have been given more of a chance on game day. Hopefully the staff will give him a fair shake to get the #3 job.

I think it has everything to do with his claw

in college you have the ability to catch it more with your body since the defenders aren't as good....

in the pros you HAVE to catch it with your hands at least 90% of the time and Watts can't do that consistantly

[BroncoInferno]

I think it has everything to do with his claw

in college you have the ability to catch it more with your body since the defenders aren't as good....

in the pros you HAVE to catch it with your hands at least 90% of the time and Watts can't do that consistantly

Watts caught a lot of balls with his hands in college. Shanny said the most intriguing thing about him coming out of college was his YAC ability, and you can't be consistent in that department if you catch a ton of balls on your body. It's confidence, not the claw.

[Mediator12]

Watson is no Bobby Turner and as much as I liked Steve as a player I am not sold on him as a wide receiver coach.

I Have been saying that for at least two years too ;D

[Mile High Shack]

Watts caught a lot of balls with his hands in college. Shanny said the most intriguing thing about him coming out of college was his YAC ability, and you can't be consistent in that department if you catch a ton of balls on your body. It's confidence, not the claw.

eh
we are going to have to agree to disagree

obviously confidence is an issue with Watts, but just like a major league pitcher who can't find the plate all of a sudden, generally, that doesn't come back easily and we don't have time nor the money to pussy foot around with him

[BroncoInferno]

eh
we are going to have to agree to disagree

obviously confidence is an issue with Watts, but just like a major league pitcher who can't find the plate all of a sudden, generally, that doesn't come back easily and we don't have time nor the money to p***Y foot around with him

Well, I don't disagree there; I'm not saying his confidence WILL come back, I'm just hoping Heimerdinger can get him to relax and not try and press. Believe me, I'm not willing to bet the farm on him, but I'm not throwing him under the bus yet, either. There are plenty of examples of WRs making significant strides in their 3rd season.

[Mediator12]

Watts caught a lot of balls with his hands in college. Shanny said the most intriguing thing about him coming out of college was his YAC ability, and you can't be consistent in that department if you catch a ton of balls on your body. It's confidence, not the claw.

To be fair, Watts also dropped more than a few in College. My uncle has seen every Marshall game in the last thirty years and his statement to me was "He is unbelievable. Makes great catches, makes people miss, runs great routes and then drops the ball at least once a game. He does a great Job in the red Zone though getting off press coverage."

This is why I had him as the sleeper in the 2004 draft before Denver reached (I HATE that term) into the second round to get him. He had three different QB's his last year and still put up really solid numbers.

His biggest problem IMHO is his attitude off the field. He needed to gain some muscle and spend a bunch of time with the offense catching routes over last offseason. The staff saw he did not meet the standards and refused to give him a break for just "showing up". Now he is more involved from what I hear and making a better effort to meet the standards. I hope he really gets it. He really has great ability if he ever decides to use it.

[Mediator12]

Darius Watts Scouting report:

OVERVIEW

Highly productive receiver who moved into the starting lineup midway through his freshman year…The lanky receiver, nicknamed “spider” by his teammates, served as squad captain during his final two seasons…Competed in 47 games for the Thundering Herd, hauling in 272 passes for 4031 yards (14.8 avg) and 47 touchdowns…His 272 catches set school and Mid-American Conference career-records, ranking fifth all-time in NCAA Division 1-A history…Only Troy Edwards of Louisiana Tech (50, 1996-98) had more scoring grabs in a career in NCAA Division 1-A annals…Only Mike Barber (4262, 1985-88) gained more yards receiving in Marshall history…Added 188 yards on 21 carries (9.0 avg) and 254 yards on 15 kickoff returns (16.9 avg).

ANALYSIS

Positives…Has adequate initial quickness with a good burst off the line of scrimmage… Shows some snap in his route running to set defenders up and separate (his snap causes the cornerbacks to get off-balance)…Instinctive working the sidelines and does a nice job of finding the down markers…Has an adequate burst out of his cuts and uses his height well to adjust and extend for the ball working in a crowd…Has the second gear needed to stretch the field and makes good body adjustments on the move to escape the defenders on deep routes…Shows persistence and effort as a blocker, especially when working on the back side…Understands getting leverage in his routes and makes crisp moves coming out of his cuts.

Negatives…Lacks suddenness in his line release and does not have the power in his frame to defeat the jam (gets by defenders with his speed)…Will gather himself a bit to get to top speed…Will extend his hands to get to the ball, but does revert to body catching… Lacks toughness and strength to compete for the ball in traffic (will make an effort, though)…Does not have the leg drive to break tackles…Very laid back about training and needs to be pushed in this area to get good effort.

[BroncoInferno]

To be fair, Watts also dropped more than a few in College. My uncle has seen every Marshall game in the last thirty years and his statement to me was "He is unbelievable. Makes great catches, makes people miss, runs great routes and then drops the ball at least once a game. He does a great Job in the red Zone though getting off press coverage."

This is why I had him as the sleeper in the 2004 draft before Denver reached (I HATE that term) into the second round to get him. He had three different QB's his last year and still put up really solid numbers.

His biggest problem IMHO is his attitude off the field. He needed to gain some muscle and spend a bunch of time with the offense catching routes over last offseason. The staff saw he did not meet the standards and refused to give him a break for just "showing up". Now he is more involved from what I hear and making a better effort to meet the standards. I hope he really gets it. He really has great ability if he ever decides to use it.

Thanks for the info, that last paragraph gives me hope. The ability is certainly there. I just hope the staff hasn't given up on him like most of the fans have.

[BMF Bronco]

so I didn't feel like reading through 5 pages of this, what's the most recent word?

[Mediator12]

so I didn't feel like reading through 5 pages of this, what's the most recent word?

Lelie is unhappy being underutilized in the Broncos offense and will probably bolt the first opportunity he gets. Lots of trade while you can get something for him Speculation. Discussing the various WR's behind Lelie, mostly Watts. That's about it :wave:

[BMF Bronco]

Personally, I won't be too upset if we lose him, but I would like to get someone of his ability only with heart.

[montrose]

Lelie will never be able to fully reach his potential in our offense, he'll continue to remain a deep threat but thats it. It's not a knock on Lelie, I think he's been far more productive than Chad Jackson would be. Our system calls for physical possesion receivers (see Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey). The only other type of receiver I could see having success is a small quick reciever who could flourish w/screens, slants, etc.

That said, I don't want to lose Lelie unless there is a reciever in place ready to go thats not Charlie Adams. I'm intrigued by David Terrell b/c his skills fit the system perfectly, but I wouldn't bank on him. It'll be very interesting to see what happens. My guess is that Lelie comes back and walks after the season.

[Rascal]

For the record you speculated about Lelie going to the 49'ers not the Packers.

[Play2win]

I say we Keep ASH, Get Matt Leinart (somehow) and let Matt turn ASH into a star by the end of his very first year here...

I Betcha ASH will stick around if we draft Leinart, because he would know he would be getting the ball...

We try to get ASH the ball deep, but JAKE just can't do it. He does have the mid-to-deep accuracy for the required throws...

[Play2win]

Lelie will never be able to fully reach his potential in our offense, he'll continue to remain a deep threat but thats it. It's not a knock on Lelie, I think he's been far more productive than Chad Jackson would be. Our system calls for physical possesion receivers (see Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey). The only other type of receiver I could see having success is a small quick reciever who could flourish w/screens, slants, etc.

That said, I don't want to lose Lelie unless there is a reciever in place ready to go thats not Charlie Adams. I'm intrigued by David Terrell b/c his skills fit the system perfectly, but I wouldn't bank on him. It'll be very interesting to see what happens. My guess is that Lelie comes back and walks after the season.
ROD was much more than a "Possesion" Receiver for many years, especially with ELWAY. He stretched the field, just in a different way than a guy like Moss would.

ASH can definitely reach his potential in this offense, He just can't reach his potential with THIS QUARTERBACK !!!

[BroncoInferno]

ROD was much more than a "Possesion" Receiver for many years, especially with ELWAY. He stretched the field, just in a different way than a guy like Moss would.

ASH can definitely reach his potential in this offense, He just can't reach his potential with THIS QUARTERBACK !!!

Bull****. For one thing, Rod was never a pure deep threat. He was certainly adequate in the that department, but he made most of his big plays on YAC...taking slants and crosses and turning them into big gains. Ash has shown no consistency at doing anything in the short to medium range, and he will continue have that problem no matter who is QB is. Jake certainly isn't the leagues most accurate QB on the deep ball, but, seriously, how many QBs do you think there are who throw a consistently accurate, pinpoint deep pass? 5 or 6, maybe. So, yeah, he probably would catch an extra 10 passes or so if he could play with a QB like Carson Palmer, but his other weaknesses would still exist and limit his overall effectiveness.

[~Crash~]

We get Walker and #5
GB gets Lelie and #15

this is what I belive will be offered for walker and a ACL and his little mood swing like I will never play for the pack agian . we might throw in a low round pick....

edit~~I also stated this several days ago!!!

[Play2win]

Bull****. For one thing, Rod was never a pure deep threat. He was certainly adequate in the that department, but he made most of his big plays on YAC...taking slants and crosses and turning them into big gains. Ash has shown no consistency at doing anything in the short to medium range, and he will continue have that problem no matter who is QB is. Jake certainly isn't the leagues most accurate QB on the deep ball, but, seriously, how many QBs do you think there are who throw a consistently accurate, pinpoint deep pass? 5 or 6, maybe. So, yeah, he probably would catch an extra 10 passes or so if he could play with a QB like Carson Palmer, but his other weaknesses would still exist and limit his overall effectiveness.

Oh, why don't you go eat your own salad...


If Jake could get within 10 yards of any of those deep passes to ASH, it would be looked as Jake making Significant Progress in his passing game.

[Rascal]

We get Walker and #5
GB gets Lelie and #15

this is what I belive will be offered for walker and a ACL and his little mood swing like I will never play for the pack agian . we might throw in a low round pick....

edit~~I also stated this several days ago!!!

I think we would have to give up our 22nd as well.

[BroncoInferno]

Oh, why don't you go eat your own salad...


If Jake could get within 10 yards of any of those deep passes to ASH, it would be looked as Jake making Significant Progress in his passing game.

If Ash could do anything within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage, Jake's weakness as an accurate deep thrower might not matter so much re: Lelie's production. Besides, it was usually Lelie getting chewed out on the sideline by the coaches after one of those overthrows. Why do you think that is? Poor route running or lackadasical effort, probably.

[Rascal]

Send our 15, 22, and Lelie for Javon, 5th, and a third.

I think the key to this will be the Saints. I honestly don't see them drafting Mario or a QB. Maybe D'brick but I doubt it wiht Jamal Brown impressing them.

If they don't trade out and reach to take AJ or Vernon Davis, I think it is very likely that Mario will slide to #5.

Texans: Bush
Saints: Hawk/Vernon Davis
Texans: Lienart
Jets: D'Brick/V Young
Broncos: Mario???

Get Mario and Javon Walker and then get a TE in the second...I'd take it.

[ND Bronco Fan]

Get Mario and Javon Walker and then get a TE in the second...I'd take it.


When put that way it makes perfect sense........Address the DE issue and also I see Walker as an upgrade especially since Lelie is gone after this year anyways. As good as Vernon Davis is.........hopefully there will be a good TE in the second.

[yerner]

No story here. Shanahan never lets a reciever just come in and start, does he? Lelie isnt going anywhere.

[Play2win]

If Ash could do anything within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage, Jake's weakness as an accurate deep thrower might not matter so much re: Lelie's production. Besides, it was usually Lelie getting chewed out on the sideline by the coaches after one of those overthrows. Why do you think that is? Poor route running or lackadasical effort, probably.
Until we switch the QB position, every WR we bring in is going to have the same problem. Unless the guy is a complete stud like rod, everyone is going to be saying whats wrong with this WR, whats wrong with that WR... He doesn't get off the jam, runs bad routes, drops balls, etc...

We get a new QB that does simple things good, like throwing the ball to the right person at the right time with good accuracy, all those "problems" will disapear...

JAKE is the Bottleneck and I think Shanahan knows this...

[Taco John]

For the record you speculated about Lelie going to the 49'ers not the Packers.


You completely missed the point. First, I didn't speculate. I told you that there was trade buzz going on behind the scenes about Lelie. At the time, the Packers weren't named... However, the second that the Javon Walker talk started up, anyone with a brain could have put two and two toghether to get three. I know I did. Just because I didn't specifically say to you the Packers are possibilities, doesn't mean I was wrong.

[Mile High Shack]

Until we switch the QB position, every WR we bring in is going to have the same problem. Unless the guy is a complete stud like rod, everyone is going to be saying whats wrong with this WR, whats wrong with that WR... He doesn't get off the jam, runs bad routes, drops balls, etc...

We get a new QB that does simple things good, like throwing the ball to the right person at the right time with good accuracy, all those "problems" will disapear...

JAKE is the Bottleneck and I think Shanahan knows this...

yeah and apparently Shanny is too stupid to get rid of Jake instead of Lelie ..... oye vay, you people make my head hurt

[~Crash~]

I think we would have to give up our 22nd as well.

If the guy did not blow out his ACL and and have mood swings I would give up half the draft for him...

The very most this team should give is

We get Walker and #5
GB gets Lelie and #15 and or 2nd round pick .

[BroncoInferno]

Until we switch the QB position, every WR we bring in is going to have the same problem. Unless the guy is a complete stud like rod, everyone is going to be saying whats wrong with this WR, whats wrong with that WR... He doesn't get off the jam, runs bad routes, drops balls, etc...

We get a new QB that does simple things good, like throwing the ball to the right person at the right time with good accuracy, all those "problems" will disapear...

JAKE is the Bottleneck and I think Shanahan knows this...

Well, that is BS, Rod and Shannon had no problems catching passes from Jake. Ash is too one-dimensional. His problems in this offense are a result of his own short comings. A recevier who can work the short area of the field better will have more success than Ash with Jake, and that is a stone cold fact. Yes, Jake is not great with a deep ball (although you grossly exaggerate the problem). Too bad Ash can't do anything consistently but go deep.

[12th man]

We get Walker and #5
GB gets Lelie and #15

this is what I belive will be offered for walker and a ACL and his little mood swing like I will never play for the pack agian . we might throw in a low round pick....

edit~~I also stated this several days ago!!!
I would like this deal. I love lelie, but he is inconsistant. Walker would be a better fit here. and with that 5 pick we could get Mario williams or VD. personilly Iwould want Mario cauese we need all the help at rushing the passer and that's our most glaring issue.If we get walker and that five pick, I think we get mario, then with the 22nd lendale white. I think we are the only team interested in him in the first round. i mean we fed him dinner when all the other teams hated him. I have a feeling he is coming here. so, we get out playmaker on D and O.

if we get vd, that means we have a great passing game. i mean, rod, walker, vd, and duke. plus the depth of david terrell, charlie adam, and luke. that's a good passing game. if we keep lelie, we still have his inconsistant self, but can still make plays, and duke will be good. im just a little shaky on him cause of his inexperience. but i have a feeling he is going to be great here. so, anyway, walker would help us out here more than lelei has, and help us out in the draft. I know lelei has been leading the league and all, but walker is more consistant.

[BroncoInferno]

yeah and apparently Shanny is too stupid to get rid of Jake instead of Lelie ..... oye vay, you people make my head hurt

Yep, too bad we have a stupid coach like Shanahan that can't get the most out of his players, not to mention the worst quaterback in football. How we went 13-3 with these losers is beyond me.

[12th man]

Well, that is BS, Rod and Shannon had no problems catching passes from Jake. Ash is too one-dimensional. His problems in this offense are a result of his own short comings. A recevier who can work the short area of the field better will have more success than Ash with Jake, and that is a stone cold fact. Yes, Jake is not great with a deep ball (although you grossly exaggerate the problem). Too bad Ash can't do anything consistently but go deep.
Bingo.

[Taco John]

Too bad Ash can't do anything consistently but go deep.



Once he gets a quarterback with better accuracy, Ash will be just fine.

[Taco John]

Well, that is BS, Rod and Shannon had no problems catching passes from Jake.


LOL :rofl: LOL


Come on now... Seriously.

Shannon wasn't exactly singing the praises of Jake on his way out the door.

[Mile High Shack]

Yep, too bad we have a stupid coach like Shanahan that can't get the most out of his players, not to mention the worst quaterback in football. How we went 13-3 with these losers is beyond me.

that is what kills me

Jake isn't a great QB, but he's good enough to win a superbowl with, with a good coaching staff and a good scheme

He's good enough, especially compared to some of the QBs who have won the superbowl (hello Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, etc etc)

but to all the Lelie apologists, the problem lies soley with Jake and the inability of Mike Shanahan (one of the most brilliant offensive minds in the NFL) to get Lelie the ball

oye

[Mile High Shack]

Once he gets a quarterback with better accuracy, Ash will be just fine.

I'd make you a year long sig bet that Ashley can't be any better than he was in 2004 if he goes to a different team

[BroncoInferno]

Once he gets a quarterback with better accuracy, Ash will be just fine.

Honestly, Taco, how many QB do you think there are in the NFL who can throw a consistent, pinpoint accurate deep ball? Five or six, maybe? Yeah, if Ash gets on one of the handful of teams that has a guy like that, sure, he'll probably add 10 or 15 catches to his total. But to act like Jake's inconsistency throwing the ball deep is the culprit for Lelie's lack of consistency in this offense, and not his own short comings in the short area of the field is absurd and just plain wrong.

[BroncoInferno]

LOL :rofl: LOL


Come on now... Seriously.

Shannon wasn't exactly singing the praises of Jake on his way out the door.

Sharpe caught 60+ passes in '03, and Rod caught 80+. We played the same style of ball in '03 we played in '05. People act like Lelie's 41 catches were the absolute maximum you could expect from our #2 receiver this season, but that is nothing but excuses. We played the same kind of close to the vest ball in '03 and got 20+ more catches from our then #2 option at receiver than we did from Lelie in '05.

[Taco John]

Jake isn't a great QB, but he's good enough to win a superbowl with....



Huh? Based on what? In the biggest games we've had with Jake, he's choked. He shows heart, but he still choked. The two interceptions he threw against Pittsburgh were some of the worst throws ever made in a Broncos uniform.

Jake has a lot of heart, and he makes this team fun to watch most of the time, but he has choked in the majority of our big games, and he didn't exactly light it up against the Patriots. He MIGHT be good enough to win the Superbowl with... Or he might be just good enough to get to big games and choke. Who knows?

The guy has got a lot of heart and has shown improvement since joining the team. He deserves at least another shot. But we've got to start looking towards the future just in case. I personally think that if Jake has another multiple interception playoff game, he'll be fighting for his job against whatever rookie we draft this year.

[azbroncfan]

Lelie isn't going anywhere for his cap number.

[Mile High Shack]

Huh? Based on what? In the biggest games we've had with Jake, he's choked. He shows heart, but he still choked. The two interceptions he threw against Pittsburgh were some of the worst throws ever made in a Broncos uniform.

Jake has a lot of heart, and he makes this team fun to watch most of the time, but he has choked in the majority of our big games, and he didn't exactly light it up against the Patriots. He MIGHT be good enough to win the Superbowl with... Or he might be just good enough to get to big games and choke. Who knows?

The guy has got a lot of heart and has shown improvement since joining the team. He deserves at least another shot. But we've got to start looking towards the future just in case. I personally think that if Jake has another multiple interception playoff game, he'll be fighting for his job against whatever rookie we draft this year.

that's great and all

but you haven't liked Jake since he got here, so no offense if I take your opinion on him with a grain of salt

obviously we have to get a young guy in here since Jake is 31 years old, but to blame the Pittsburgh game soley on Jake is laughable, but we've already been over that

and by we, I mean the board, so don't get all pissy with me for saying that

[Merlin]

Some of you are suffering from some serious O2 deprivation. For GB to give us their #5 (don't even include Walker) for our #15 and Lelie would mean that their valuing Lelie as the equivalent of a #22 first round draft choice. He of the one yr left on his contract, and with some quetion marks is going to be worth a first round draft choice this yr, when next yr he is free. That is some serious $hit you guys are smoking (or you are related to Skins fans).

[Taco John]

but you haven't liked Jake since he got here...



Actually, that's a lie.

I have been a fan of Jake's since he was playing highschool ball in Idaho and I was reading about him in the high school football locker room. He was the pride of the state in those days. I also liked him enough to predict he'd be hoisting the trophy over his head in 2005, not long afterwhich, he started on one of the biggest choke stretches I can remember any pro quarterback going on.

Jake's a likable guy. But I don't just like the Broncos, and I'm not going to just ignore the weaknesses he brings to the team because he's such a likable character.

He definitely deserves another chance to prove what he's got. But I doubt he'll survive a multiple turnover outing in the playoffs with his job secure.

[Play2win]

I wouldn't be suprised at all if we have a change at QB in the next year or two. Jake has just about reached his ceiling, and he is the Bottleneck to this offense (once again) becoming an explosive one...

[Taco John]

but to blame the Pittsburgh game soley on Jake is laughable,



I don't think anyone blames the Pittsburgh game solely on Jake. At least nobody that I've seen. That being said, there is nobody else to blame for his two picks. Those were classic Jake.

[Mediator12]

The Jake and Lelie thing is a function of their not being on the same page with their presnap reads and Zone adjustments. Jake is never going to be accurate getting the ball to the third guy in the pattern. He never sees it until the opening is gone. You see Lelie getting yelled at on the sidelines just as much as Jake with a lot of Hand gestures saying "why go there instead of there?"

Also, you never hear about them throwing patterns in the offseason and this year Lelie is not even in DEN. There has never been any chemistry between them, and even when Lelie does catch the long Balls he has to dive or make a huge adjustment. If they were in sync, they would have 6-7 more TD's last year instead of some great grabs by lelie that ended up with him getting zero YAC just to catch the ball.

In reality, until Jake can make decisions quicker AND execute them consistently he and Lelie are not a good fit. Would another WR with different Skills make a diffrence? That is the question that can not be answered until it happens.

[Mile High Shack]

Actually, that's a lie.

I have been a fan of Jake's since he was playing highschool ball in Idaho and I was reading about him in the high school football locker room. He was the pride of the state in those days. I also liked him enough to predict he'd be hoisting the trophy over his head in 2005, not long afterwhich, he started on one of the biggest choke stretches I can remember any pro quarterback going on.

Jake's a likable guy. But I don't just like the Broncos, and I'm not going to just ignore the weaknesses he brings to the team because he's such a likable character.

He definitely deserves another chance to prove what he's got. But I doubt he'll survive a multiple turnover outing with his job secure.

what I find extremely funny is, why would Shanny replace Lelie if the sole problem is our QB situation.

Wouldn't Shanny go out and try to trade for a QB with our 2 first rounders that we have, if the sole problem with our offense is Jake Plummer?

but yet, Shanny seems to want to get rid of Lelie instead

I guess Shanny is a dumbass

[Hercules Rockefeller]

what I find extremely funny is, why would Shanny replace Lelie if the sole problem is our QB situation.

Wouldn't Shanny go out and try to trade for a QB with our 2 first rounders that we have, if the sole problem with our offense is Jake Plummer?

but yet, Shanny seems to want to get rid of Lelie instead

I guess Shanny is a dumbass

So you've basically just ignored the rumors that Shanny wants Cutler and that was partially the reason for moving up to #15?

[ludo21]

what I find extremely funny is, why would Shanny replace Lelie if the sole problem is our QB situation.

Wouldn't Shanny go out and try to trade for a QB with our 2 first rounders that we have, if the sole problem with our offense is Jake Plummer?

but yet, Shanny seems to want to get rid of Lelie instead

I guess Shanny is a dumbass


Shanny blows more smoke than ANYONE around.

WE have no idea what his true intentions are. Im a HUGE Jake homer, liked him in ASU, liked him here in AZ, and love that we got him now.

But i agree with TJ, one more lousy playoff game (im mainly talking Pats game) and we have to look elsewhere.

[Mile High Shack]

So you've basically just ignored the rumors that Shanny wants Cutler and that was partially the reason for moving up to #15?

like I said, I'm fine with getting a QB of the future

but to assume that a rookie QB is going to do better than Jake is pretty funny

Jake isn't the best QB out there, he has his short comings, but looking at this thread, all the Jake haters make me laugh b/c all this time, it's always been Lelie's fault he has been average at best here

[Taco John]

what I find extremely funny is, why would Shanny replace Lelie if the sole problem is our QB situation.

Sole problem?

You like to deal in absolutes. I don't think anyone here has said the sole problem on this team is Jake.

There are several reasons that Lelie is expendable... The prime of them being that he's in his final year of this contract, and by all indications has no intention of sticking around after it.

Wouldn't Shanny go out and try to trade for a QB with our 2 first rounders that we have, if the sole problem with our offense is Jake Plummer?

So what do you think of the rumors coming from elsewhere that this is exactly what Shanahan *is* doing? And why would be Lelie be untouchable in that effort?



but yet, Shanny seems to want to get rid of Lelie instead

I guess Shanny is a dumbass


I think you should check a reflection before you go calling Shanny a dumbass. I think you're just missing the point here.

[Mile High Shack]

Sole problem?

You like to deal in absolutes. I don't think anyone here has said the sole problem on this team is Jake.

There are several reasons that Lelie is expendable... The prime of them being that he's in his final year of this contract, and by all indications has no intention of sticking around after it.



So what do you think of the rumors coming from elsewhere that this is exactly what Shanahan *is* doing? And why would be Lelie be untouchable in that effort?






I think you should check a reflection before you go calling Shanny a dumbass. I think you're just missing the point here.

I'm not missing any point

anytime Lelie is brought up, the apologist come out saying it's all Jake and Shanny's fault for not using him correctly.

instead of maybe looking at Lelie and seeing he can't get off the line of scrimmage and he is terrible in the red zone...but naa, it's all Jake and Shanny

and thanks for calling me a dumbass ;)

[Mediator12]

what I find extremely funny is, why would Shanny replace Lelie if the sole problem is our QB situation.

Wouldn't Shanny go out and try to trade for a QB with our 2 first rounders that we have, if the sole problem with our offense is Jake Plummer?

but yet, Shanny seems to want to get rid of Lelie instead

I guess Shanny is a dumbass

Getting into a pissing match with Lingo like Sole problem, that is a lie, and dumbass is not going to resolve anything guys.

This mess is a function of Jake and Lelie being a poor fit for each other in the way this offense has developed. Maybe Heimerdinger will be able to work that out better or they have already decided to "cut bait"

As successful as this offense has been, just like the Defense it has absolutely STUNK in the Playoffs. Both offense and defense have been Pathetic in the playoffs last three years. Hopefully, they will continue to make strides on both sides of the ball and stop being passive when it counts the most.

[Taco John]

anytime Lelie is brought up, the apologist come out saying it's all Jake and Shanny's fault for not using him correctly.


I think Lelie has problems of his own, undoubtedly. But I don't think those problems translate so poorly if he has a quarterback capable of hitting him in stride with any consistency. Jake isn't that guy.

[Rascal]

Some of you are suffering from some serious O2 deprivation. For GB to give us their #5 (don't even include Walker) for our #15 and Lelie would mean that their valuing Lelie as the equivalent of a #22 first round draft choice. He of the one yr left on his contract, and with some quetion marks is going to be worth a first round draft choice this yr, when next yr he is free. That is some serious $hit you guys are smoking (or you are related to Skins fans).

Yeap my thoughts exactly.

[Rascal]

So you've basically just ignored the rumors that Shanny wants Cutler and that was partially the reason for moving up to #15?

Cutler won't be available at 15. And rumors are just that...rumors.

[Mile High Shack]

I think Lelie has problems of his own, undoubtedly. But I don't think those problems translate so poorly if he has a quarterback capable of hitting him in stride with any consistency. Jake isn't that guy.

so basically you just admitted that Lelie can only run fly routes or deep post patterns

[Rascal]

But i agree with TJ, one more lousy playoff game (im mainly talking Pats game) and we have to look elsewhere.

huh? Pats game?

[Mile High Shack]

huh? Pats game?

if the Jake haters say the Steelers game, we can bring up how bad the defense played

so using the Pats game as an example, when Jake played average at best, but our D played great is trying to be sneaky on their hate

[Taco John]

so basically you just admitted that Lelie can only run fly routes or deep post patterns



Where did I say that?

[Mile High Shack]

Where did I say that?

what other patters does Lelie run that Jake can't hit him in stride?

for the life of me I can't remember many 7 yard hitch routes that Lelie runs

[ludo21]

huh? Pats game?


We played the Patriots. Jake didnt play so hot that game.

Steeler game he had NO time to throw at all, so i will give him that bad game.

[Taco John]

if the Jake haters say the Steelers game, we can bring up how bad the defense played

so using the Pats game as an example, when Jake played average at best, but our D played great is trying to be sneaky on their hate



Some people try to enjoy games without having to believe in a bunch of hype and be homers. Just because someone is realistic about Jake's abilities doesn't make them a Jake Hater.

I'm perfectly fine with Jake being our quarterback this season. I think he earned it. But I'm not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend like he doesn't come without a few warts. Choking in our biggest games happens to be one of his warts. I don't like it. HE doesn't like it. Acknoledging it doesn't make you a Jake hater. It makes you realistic.

[ludo21]

if the Jake haters say the Steelers game, we can bring up how bad the defense played

so using the Pats game as an example, when Jake played average at best, but our D played great is trying to be sneaky on their hate


do you listen!!!

Im a freaking Jake homer. But I love the Broncos, and playing lousy in the playoffs in unaceptable!!

Defense, Offense, JAke, Lelie, Rod, dont matter, they all have to bring their A game in the playoffs, and it was clear to me who didnt have it that day.

[Rascal]

We played the Patriots. Jake didnt play so hot that game.

Steeler game he had NO time to throw at all, so i will give him that bad game.

Well Brady didn't play so hot either so I guess the Patriots should can him.

And since Manning sucks in the playoffs I guess the Colts should get rid of him.

And I guess all the times that Elway sucked in the SB we should have gotten rid of him as well.

[Killericon]

Lelie would thrive in a Brett-Favre west-coast deep-ball style offense. That's why his value is more to them than it is to us.

Having said that, he's not enough to get us Walker and a #5 while packaged with our #15. I'd throw Cooper Carlislie(GB NEEDS Guards, badly) and/or our 2nd rounder for that package.

Then, we get VD with the #5, since Mario will be gone, then with our #22, we get Kiwi(Unless Deangelo Williams is availible), and draft a "QB of the future" in the 3rd.

How I would love that.

[Taco John]

what other patters does Lelie run that Jake can't hit him in stride?

for the life of me I can't remember many 7 yard hitch routes that Lelie runs


I don't remember many 7 yard hitches either. I do remember Rod being absolutely slaughtered on a few 7 yarders after having to make a tough grab that was off target

[Rascal]

Some people try to enjoy games without having to believe in a bunch of hype and be homers. Just because someone is realistic about Jake's abilities doesn't make them a Jake Hater.

You should know by now that Shack is not a blind homer.

[Taco John]

And I guess all the times that Elway sucked in the SB we should have gotten rid of him as well.



I love it when people try to compare Jake to John... Shows that they're losing the argument and have to resort now to extremes.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Well Brady didn't play so hot either so I guess the Patriots should can him.

And since Manning sucks in the playoffs I guess the Colts should get rid of him.

And I guess all the times that Elway sucked in the SB we should have gotten rid of him as well.

Well when Jake has an MVP like Manning, or carries his team to the Super Bowl (early-Elway), or wins the Super Bowl (like Brady), people can cut him some slack. But when doesn't have any of those things, don't insult the other 3 QBs by comparing them to Jake

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I love it when people try to compare Jake to John... Shows that they're losing the argument and have to resort now to extremes.

Anyone who dislikes Jake does so because they wish he was Elway, and since there will never be another John the criticism of Jake is unwarranted. It's the "Elway defense".

[Killericon]

Ahhh....just like any other long-winded Broncos discussion, this one has degenerated into a "Jake is great!" "No, Jake blows!" argument.

[Rascal]

I love it when people try to compare Jake to John... Shows that they're losing the argument and have to resort now to extremes.

I'm not losing the arguement thank you very much and I was just showing the ludicrousy of his post by showing such an extreme. For being a smart guy you should have realized that as apparently I am not capable of deep posts. It was pretty apparent.

[Rock Chalk]

I'm not losing the arguement thank you very much and I was just showing the ludicrousy of his post by showing such an extreme. For being a smart guy you should have realized that as apparently I am not capable of deep posts. It was pretty apparent.
Who said Taco was smart???

[Rascal]

Well when Jake has an MVP like Manning, or carries his team to the Super Bowl (early-Elway), or wins the Super Bowl (like Brady), people can cut him some slack. But when doesn't have any of those things, don't insult the other 3 QBs by comparing them to Jake

It was an exaggeration.

[Taco John]

I'm not losing the arguement thank you very much and I was just showing the ludicrousy of his post by showing such an extreme.


But the extreme you posted didn't really mean anything. Herc already explained why. It was basically a pointeless exaggeration.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

It was an exaggeration.

If you were exaggerating, fine, but people make that argument (especially the Peyton one) pretty often here.

[ludo21]

Ahhh....just like any other long-winded Broncos discussion, this one has degenerated into a "Jake is great!" "No, Jake blows!" argument.


Basically yeah :~ohyah!:

Except for once i guess im on the "jake blows" side.

And i love the guy, I just want the team to do well. (and win the SB)

[BMF Bronco]

It absolutely amazes me how taco and his anti-jake supporters were all over his dick from weeks 5-17, then he has an average game (albeit enough to get us a win, yes I know turnovers helped as well) but then we play a pittsburgh team that was on Jake's back more than his number, not to mention won the Super Bowl, and once again it's ****ty jake, let's cut him and put some douche with no experience in there so we can go all the way to (insert ridiculous thought here).

It was jake's third year in the system and he showed enormous improvement over the years past, I for one am excited to see how he improves this year.

[Taco John]

Just for the record, I am not of the opinion that "Jake Blows." I think Jake earned his position as our starting QB for 2006 by playing well and showing a lot of heart.

[Rascal]

If you read the context in which my post was made you would understand it..instead you decided to address it has a stand a lone post.

Ludo21...

"But i agree with TJ, one more lousy playoff game (im mainly talking Pats game) and we have to look elsewhere." and "We played the Patriots. Jake didnt play so hot that game."

That is what I made my comment towards.

[Taco John]

It absolutely amazes me how taco and his anti-jake supporters were all over his dick from weeks 5-17, then he has an average game (albeit enough to get us a win, yes I know turnovers helped as well) but then we play a pittsburgh team that was on Jake's back more than his number, not to mention won the Super Bowl, and once again it's ****ty jake, let's cut him and put some douche with no experience in there so we can go all the way to (insert ridiculous thought here).

It was jake's third year in the system and he showed enormous improvement over the years past, I for one am excited to see how he improves this year.


You need to try reading comprehension. Nobody on this board has advocated cutting Jake and putting in someone with no experience. Not one person.

[Rascal]

If you were exaggerating, fine, but people make that argument (especially the Peyton one) pretty often here.

Read my post above. My post was in reference to Ludo's post about the Pats game.

[Rascal]

You need to try reading comprehension. Nobody on this board has advocated cutting Jake and putting in someone with no experience. Not one person.

So if we got Lienart or Cutler you would still support Jake?

How many off games do you give him till we replace him? .5, 1, maybe 2?

[Taco John]

So if we got Lienart or Cutler you would still support Jake?

How many bad games do you give him till we replace him? .5, 1, maybe 2?


Only ignorant people think Shanahan is going to start a rookie in his first season.

[Rascal]

It absolutely amazes me how taco and his anti-jake supporters were all over his dick from weeks 5-17, then he has an average game (albeit enough to get us a win, yes I know turnovers helped as well) but then we play a pittsburgh team that was on Jake's back more than his number, not to mention won the Super Bowl, and once again it's ****ty jake,

It was jake's third year in the system and he showed enormous improvement over the years past, I for one am excited to see how he improves this year.

Take out that one section and I agree with your post.

[watermock]

I wouldn't go that far... yet... but I will say that we are equally sincere to providing a conduit for Broncos news and information as any of the Denver papers. Bill Williamson has access. We don't. In thier wisdom, the Broncos have a policy against allowing press credentials to sites like this. When I spoke with the representatives in charge of such things at Broncos headquarters this past offseason, I was treated like I was from Mars.

If they knew what I was aware of during the Trevor Pryce trade talks, they would think twice about keeping the Orange Mane at an arms length.

I think it's bogus, but I imagine the fear is with the zillions of internet sites, if they open the door to us, it will open a floodgate. How do you set the criteria? This place probably has more hits than the sports section of DPO. And didn't they create a new forum a couple years ago on their site?(like they don't know we exist) You know, the kiddie pool? Maybe a specific number of fans registered or the number of hits. Hell, Williamson gets his "scoops" here allready.

Kaylore would be perfect for the job IMO. He's alleady got some connections with his Bling Mall Rat job, and seems to enjoy reporting, and is very well spoken. He also works very close to dove valley, and looks the part.

Print media is last century and dying. This is the paperless century, get used to it. It's just like the network evening news being replaced with 24/7 real time sat news. I'm still astounded with the internet after a decade of having a PC.(well, 4 of them) first one was 200 2 gigs and was 1600. This one is 3+ Athlon, 80 gigs and was 350 bucks with 17 inch flat screen, AND IT WAS ON CLEARANCE. Coupled with cable broadband, it rocks the world, and it's a cheapo. Now they are bringing out dual core processors that exceed a terahertz.

Maybe if Taco wrote a letter as administrator Kaylore could get clearance if he can just get his foot in the door. If Bronco Billy got in, it can't be that hard

[Rock Chalk]

I love you retards.

[Mediator12]

Whatever, you all just want to bitch. No one is even willing to think what is really the case here. Have fun!

[Kaylore]

I still don't get how each year, the quality of the offensive fire power for Jake to work with has declined, and yet he has managed to keep improving his game. Despite this, people still see him as a nice game manager, but never more than a gets-you-to-the-playoffs kind of QB. Our offensive talent is average. If you want to say including him, then fine, but then my point that he needs help is even more true.

[BMF Bronco]

You need to try reading comprehension. Nobody on this board has advocated cutting Jake and putting in someone with no experience. Not one person.
First off, don't try to insult my intelligence. Second, maybe I exaggerated a bit on the post. My point is, it is astounding how you are as Pro-Jake as I am, but when he has a bad game, you want to lynch him. You, yourself cannot deny the improvement Jake has shown over the past two years!

[Rock Chalk]

Whatever, you all just want to b****. No one is even willing to think what is really the case here. Have fun!
That's essentially what this board has become. A place to bitch. Taco's idea. Bigger = better.

[Taco John]

There's no doubt that Jake needed another playmaker on the field last year against Pittsburgh, and probably even New England.

That said, I think it's a reach to say his offensive firepower has declined every year.

[Rascal]

I still don't get how each year, the quality of the offensive fire power for Jake to work with has declined, and yet he has managed to keep improving his game. Despite this, people still see him as a nice game manager, but never more than a gets-you-to-the-playoffs kind of QB. Our offensive talent is average. If you want to say including him, then fine, but then my point that he needs help is even more true.

Exactly.

[Rock Chalk]

There's no doubt that Jake needed another playmaker on the field last year against Pittsburgh, and probably even New England.

That said, I think it's a reach to say his offensive firepower has declined every year.
:rofl:

Just keep posting man, its good stuff.

[Popps]

I'm perfectly fine with Jake being our quarterback this season. I think he earned it. But I'm not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend like he doesn't come without a few warts.

The only people sticking their heads in the sand are the ones who look at that Pittsburgh game and think our loss had anything to do with the quarterback.

[Rascal]

There's no doubt that Jake needed another playmaker on the field last year against Pittsburgh, and probably even New England.

That said, I think it's a reach to say his offensive firepower has declined every year.

Explain that one!!!

[Mediator12]

That's essentially what this board has become. A place to b****. Taco's idea. Bigger = better.

I would agree alec, but these are a bunch of guys I actually think bring a lot to the table in their posts. This is not a fringe argument.

Jake and Lelie have horrible chemistry. Period. Neither seems to want to do anything about it. As far as I am concerned sayonara Lelie. We are stuck with Jake for awhile and might as well TRY something different. As I said before, Heimerdinger may be able to salvage something with a fresh perspective, but they may have also decided to "cut Bait" Like they have with Anderson, Pryce, and Putz.

[watermock]

I still don't get how each year, the quality of the offensive fire power for Jake to work with has declined, and yet he has managed to keep improving his game. Despite this, people still see him as a nice game manager, but never more than a gets-you-to-the-playoffs kind of QB. Our offensive talent is average. If you want to say including him, then fine, but then my point that he needs help is even more true.

Exactly. We have a very good, not great Defense which is relatively young except for Wilson and Lynch.

We have neglected the offense too long. Again, if we can swing a trade of two disgruntled recievers in Walker and Lelie, move to 5 in a trade, Mario or Davis will fall into our laps, both positions of critical need.

[Rock Chalk]

I would agree alec, but these are a bunch of guys I actually think bring a lot to the table in their posts. This is not a fringe argument.

Jake and Lelie have horrible chemistry. Period. Neither seems to want to do anything about it. As far as I am concerned sayonara Lelie. We are stuck with Jake for awhile and might as well TRY something different. As I said before, Heimerdinger may be able to salvage something with a fresh perspective, but they may have also decided to "cut Bait" Like they have with Anderson, Pryce, and Putz.
Lots of new posters I have enjoyed over the past year, not the least of which is Kaylore and yes, even Atlas and no because of his avatars.

But for every new good poster there are 10 complete ****ing morons that joined up with them. Sheep that follow whatever the local bully is saying at the moment.

[Taco John]

First off, don't try to insult my intelligence. Second, maybe I exaggerated a bit on the post.

Yes yes... you and Rascal and everybody else who feel like they're behind in this discussion has resorted to exaggerations. Try this: don't exaggerate and I won't insult your intelligence. When you exaggerate, you insult my intelligence, and I respond in kind. Nobody here wants to start a rookie with no experience. Making the exaggeration is dishonest and paints a picture that is false.


My point is, it is astounding how you are as Pro-Jake as I am, but when he has a bad game, you want to lynch him. You, yourself cannot deny the improvement Jake has shown over the past two years!

I don't deny the improvement Jake has shown over the past two years. Likewise, I don't deny that he's completely choked at some point in the playoffs every time we've gone.

Jake is permitted to have bad games during the season, but players are defined by what they do in the playoffs.

If Jake has another multiple interception outing in the playoffs next year causing us to lose, I don't expect his job will be safe in 2007. If he goes in the other direction and wins it all, he could be here for the next 5 years... who knows?

[watermock]

Originally Posted by Alec
That's essentially what this board has become. A place to b****. Taco's idea. Bigger = better.

Your the biggest bitch on the board Alec

[Taco John]

The only people sticking their heads in the sand are the ones who look at that Pittsburgh game and think our loss had anything to do with the quarterback.



I think that if Jake didn't throw that first pick, we'd have won the game. Likewise, I was convinced we were going to win the game in the second half up until the point that Jake threw his second pick. That was game over.

I think there were plenty of team problems that day. Including the quarterback position. I absolutely think that Jake's turnovers had something to do with why we lost that Sunday. I don't understand how anyone could come with the take that they didn't have anything to do with it.

[Popps]

Jake and Lelie have horrible chemistry.

Odd that Jake manages to have pretty good chemistry with everyone else. I notice Rod having no problems with "chemistry." Our TEs seems to do pretty well with Jake.

Lelie has the highest YPC average in the league, this from a QB who supposedly can't hit him in stride.

It's nothing short of comical the **** people come up with around here.

We are stuck with Jake for awhile and might as well TRY something different.

Yea, it sucks to be stuck with a guy who was a Pro Bowl alternate, has a .750 winning percentage and has shredded our record books.

"Stuck." Amazing.

[Rascal]

There goes TJ again with his superiority complex.

If you had reading comprehension yourself you would have seen my post was in response to Ludo's comments.

LOL...players are defined by what they do in the playoffs yet my exaggeration which included Peyton was BS. LOL!! Priceless.

[Mediator12]

The only people sticking their heads in the sand are the ones who look at that Pittsburgh game and think our loss had anything to do with the quarterback.

Almost as much as those who think it did not have anything to do with him either. Yes, the defense has been pummeled too and has just as much culpability or MORE in the INDY losses.

However, this offense has been underwhelming in the four Outings in the playoffs too. The defense has had one decent game which it helped win with four TO's. The offense has flat out sucked balls in all four first halves scoring an average of ZERO first quarter points and six in the second.

[Rascal]

Odd that Jake manages to have pretty good chemistry with everyone else. I notice Rod having no problems with "chemistry." Our TEs seems to do pretty well with Jake.

Lelie has the highest YPC average in the league, this from a QB who supposedly can't hit him in stride.

It's nothing short of comical the **** people come up with around here.



Yea, it sucks to be stuck with a guy who was a Pro Bowl alternate, has a .750 winning percentage and has shredded our record books.

"Stuck." Amazing.

Like Mediator said I think part of them problem is that Lelie and Jake never practice with each other for wahtever reason and now Lelie isn't even participating with the team. If Lelie is not traded before the season starts I'm expecting a disappointing year.

[Rock Chalk]

Your the biggest b**** on the board Alec
Second only to you my friend.

[Taco John]

That's essentially what this board has become. A place to b****. Taco's idea. Bigger = better.



What are you talking about dude? You are the biggest bitcher on this board bar none. That's not an exaggeration either and you know it. Now you're bitching that other people bitch too?

What?

Just out of curiosity... You say I had some idea that "bigger = better." I don't know where you got that. I never said such a thing. I just keep the doors open, that's all. I'm not sure at what point you think I should have permanently closed them so that you could have your idea of message board utopia where nobody has anything negative to say about anything that's going on... But I'm sure we'd all be just enthralled to hear it.

[Rascal]

So you going to explain your comment on how the offensive firepower has remained the same TJ?

[BMF Bronco]

I don't deny the improvement Jake has shown over the past two years. Likewise, I don't deny that he's completely choked at some point in the playoffs every time we've gone.

Jake is permitted to have bad games during the season, but players are defined by what they do in the playoffs.

If Jake has another multiple interception outing in the playoffs next year causing us to lose, I don't expect his job will be safe in 2007. If he goes in the other direction and wins it all, he could be here for the next 5 years... who knows?

Okay, going back to the comparison between Manning and Jake. It was said that the two should not be compared to one another as Jake hasn't done as much as Peyton. I tend to diagree. First off, Petyon hasn't won **** during his entire career, including college and has had the team to do it in both levels of the game, only to choke badly when the time comes to shine. Furthermore, to go back to the college days, Jake actually beat the same nebraska team that throttled Peytons Vols (yes I know digging waaay back, only to point out the similairities/differences). Continuing, if players are judged by what they do in the playoffs, why is Dan Marino considered in some circles better than John Elway?

[watermock]

I think that if Jake didn't throw that first pick, we'd have won the game. Likewise, I was convinced we were going to win the game in the second half up until the point that Jake threw his second pick. That was game over.

I think there were plenty of team problems that day. Including the quarterback position. I absolutely think that Jake's turnovers had something to do with why we lost that Sunday. I don't understand how anyone could come with the take that they didn't have anything to do with it.

Hell yes Jake had a bad game, they didn't account for Porter whatsoever. We should of been using a double TE like I suggested at the begining of the year, but Pubiak was too obstinant. Good riddance IMO. Let him try nintendo with that OL in Houston. DWill getting hurt didn't help either. Let's remember the Great Favre had 29 picks, Jake had 8 I think, plus his two very costly ones. The second was excusable when we were behind but rallying. We just had the wrong gameplan or came out flat or didn't execute, or Pitt was just the better team or all 4. Remember, that team was 15-1 in 04 and Big Ben was injured in 3 of their losses in 05.

[Taco John]

players are defined by what they do in the playoffs yet my exaggeration which included Peyton was BS. LOL!! Priceless.



Dude, I'm not exaggerating at all. Players are defined by what the do in the playoffs. That is the truth.

[Mediator12]

Odd that Jake manages to have pretty good chemistry with everyone else. I notice Rod having no problems with "chemistry." Our TEs seems to do pretty well with Jake.

Lelie has the highest YPC average in the league, this from a QB who supposedly can't hit him in stride.

It's nothing short of comical the **** people come up with around here.



Yea, it sucks to be stuck with a guy who was a Pro Bowl alternate, has a .750 winning percentage and has shredded our record books.

"Stuck." Amazing.

Good to see you too popps.

As for the YPC, name the number of those catches Lelie caught standing up. As for the Chemistry with anyone but Rod, watch the five Major Hits Putzier suffered on jacked up as Plummer dumped the ball of to him late last year. And who else does that chemistry apply??? As for Pro bowl Alternate, he was Number Five and definitely played well enough to earn that last year, but no better either.

[anthonypacino]

yeah, leading Marshall in receiving a couple years ago............. its the hands.........


Im in the camp that he lost confidence.

He didnt just 'forget' how to catch.
For the record, Watts caught almost everything threw at him in camp, he really impressed me, it is in the game when he stumbles. It is entirely mental with him. If he can work out his game jitters he could be productive.

[Popps]

I think that if Jake didn't throw that first pick, we'd have won the game.

Dude, it's actually impressive how far you'll reach to keep up your campaign against the guy.

WE WERE DOWN 17-3 when he threw the pick. We were in panic mode. We had abandoned the run early on, and Pittsburgh was running right over our defense.

So, Jake threw a pick. ONE pick when it was 17-3. Maybe our D would come up with a stop, right? Wrong. Pitt marched happily down the field and punched in another TD.

But, this shouldn't surprise me. You're the same guy that watched Indy put up something like 70 combined FIRST HALF points on us in two playoff games, and then tried to blame our OFFENSE for the losses.

Like I said... comical.

[Taco John]

Okay, going back to the comparison between Manning and Jake. It was said that the two should not be compared to one another as Jake hasn't done as much as Peyton. I tend to diagree. First off, Petyon hasn't won **** during his entire career, including college and has had the team to do it in both levels of the game, only to choke badly when the time comes to shine. Furthermore, to go back to the college days, Jake actually beat the same nebraska team that throttled Peytons Vols (yes I know digging waaay back, only to point out the similairities/differences). Continuing, if players are judged by what they do in the playoffs, why is Dan Marino considered in some circles better than John Elway?


I'm sorry... I just can't spend a lot of time on this comparison. It's pointless. Every coach in the league would take Peyton Manning over Jake Plummer, including ours, every time.

[Rascal]

Dude, I'm not exaggerating at all. Players are defined by what the do in the playoffs. That is the truth.

Answer BMF's post.

[Rascal]

I'm sorry... I just can't spend a lot of time on this comparison. It's pointless. Every coach in the league would take Peyton Manning over Jake Plummer, including ours, every time.

LOL...people this is an example of what somebody resorts to when they are losing an argument.

[Mediator12]

Dude, it's actually impressive how far you'll reach to keep up your campaign against the guy.

WE WERE DOWN 17-3 when he threw the pick. We were in panic mode. We had abandoned the run early on, and Pittsburgh was running right over our defense.

So, Jake threw a pick. ONE pick when it was 17-3. Maybe our D would come up with a stop, right? Wrong. Pitt marched happily down the field and punched in another TD.

But, this shouldn't surprise me. You're the same guy that watched Indy put up something like 70 combined FIRST HALF points on us in two playoff games, and then tried to blame our OFFENSE for the losses.

Like I said... comical.

And you conveniently forget that two of those TD's were Jake TO's that he had not Committed all year. Both inside scoring position from inside the Broncos 39 yard line. BTW, how many points did that offense put up in that half 3 ??? You win a lot of playoff games with three first half points at home.

[Taco John]

Dude, it's actually impressive how far you'll reach to keep up your campaign against the guy.

WE WERE DOWN 17-3 when he threw the pick. We were in panic mode. We had abandoned the run early on, and Pittsburgh was running right over our defense.

So, Jake threw a pick. ONE pick when it was 17-3. Maybe our D would come up with a stop, right? Wrong. Pitt marched happily down the field and punched in another TD.

But, this shouldn't surprise me. You're the same guy that watched Indy put up something like 70 combined FIRST HALF points on us in two playoff games, and then tried to blame our OFFENSE for the losses.

Like I said... comical.


Yeah we were down 17-3, and we needed our offense to get us within striking distance... Going into the lockerroom at 17-10 would have been much better than 24-3, wouldn't you agree?

[BMF Bronco]

I'm sorry... I just can't spend a lot of time on this comparison. It's pointless. Every coach in the league would take Peyton Manning over Jake Plummer, including ours, every time.

How's it pointless, it's quite valid. You said quarterbacks are judged by what they do in the playoffs. Both have yet to to $hit which brings up my Marino stance. He sucked in the playoffs too, but he's considered on of the elites. If you say it's because of the records he (and peyton to a point) holds, lest we forget that jake is in the process of re-writing many of John's records. Now to compare the two (jake and john) is ridiculous, I know, I am just stating facts!

[Taco John]

Answer BMF's post.



Answer what? Why some people say that Marino is better than Elway?

Because they're morons.

[Rascal]

Yeah we were down 17-3, and we needed our offense to get us within striking distance... Going into the lockerroom at 17-10 would have been much better than 24-3, wouldn't you agree?

you assumed our defense would have been able to stop them...more like 24-10. Name a game all year when we came back from 14 points.

[anthonypacino]

I do not care if Lelie is gone or not, He hasn't been able to do much for us in his time here and it doesn't look like he ever will, let him go somewhere he fits better and let us get something out of it. If we can somehow package him with some picks to the Pack and get the #5 and hope that Mario will fall to us, maybe even trading to the Saints who have been rumored to be taking offers for trading down. With Stallworth maybe leaving, I could see where they would love to take two firsts and a #2 WR for the 2nd pick. It would screw Minnesota out of trading up to get Lineart.

[Popps]

As for the YPC, name the number of those catches Lelie caught standing up.

Oh, I see... leading the league in YPC two years in a row doesn't speak to the QBs ability to throw the long ball, apparently I have to watch the tape and see if Ashley is standing up when he catches the ball? (Whatever that means.)

Got it.

As for Pro bowl Alternate, he was Number Five and definitely played well enough to earn that last year, but no better either.

Whatever. Break it down by wins... break it down by stats... he's an extremely productive QB. Lelie is a novelty receiver and a one-trick pony.

[Rascal]

So you going to explain your comment on how the offensive firepower has remained the same TJ?

bump

[Taco John]

How's it pointless, it's quite valid. You said quarterbacks are judged by what they do in the playoffs. Both have yet to to $hit which brings up my Marino stance. He sucked in the playoffs too, but he's considered on of the elites. If you say it's because of the records he (and peyton to a point) holds, lest we forget that jake is in the process of re-writing many of John's records. Now to compare the two (jake and john) is ridiculous, I know, I am just stating facts!


So now we're comparing Jake to Marino?

I totally don't understand your post. As far as I know, Marino is defined by the fact that he hasn't won a Superbowl. It's the first thing I think of when I think of Marino: No Ringo.

I should alter the statement to make it more clear:

Quarterbacks are defined by what they do and don't do in the playoffs.

[Taco John]

bump



Why don't you comment on how it's deteriorated so badly? I'm not the one with the burden of proof here.

[Taco John]

gotta run... check in later...

[Taco John]

you assumed our defense would have been able to stop them...more like 24-10. Name a game all year when we came back from 14 points.



I can't name a single game off the top of my head where Jake has been able to lead us back being down 14 points.

[Popps]

How's it pointless, it's quite valid. You said quarterbacks are judged by what they do in the playoffs. Both have yet to to $hit which brings up my Marino stance. He sucked in the playoffs too, but he's considered on of the elites. If you say it's because of the records he (and peyton to a point) holds, lest we forget that jake is in the process of re-writing many of John's records. Now to compare the two (jake and john) is ridiculous, I know, I am just stating facts!

Yea... apparently in Tacoland, QBs are judged by what they do in the playoffs... but defenses are not.

As for comparing John and Jake, it's only ridiculous if the comparison is made to imply that Jake has more raw SKILL than John had. If the comparison is made to show that Jake is extremely productive and a very legitimate starting QB, it's totally valid.

The only thing that'll keep Jake from shredding the rest of John's records is his age. Like it or not, that's the way it it, folks. Plummer is very productive in our system.

[Mediator12]

you assumed our defense would have been able to stop them...more like 24-10. Name a game all year when we came back from 14 points.

Precisely. The offense had NOT been giving the other team the ball inside scoring position ALL YEAR. 14 points were on the first two plays of a drive inside DEN's own territory inside the 39.

Its not like anyone on the defense decided they would step up and make a play that day either. A replay fumble negated, three dropped INT's that would have kept 14 points off the board. The defense sucked just as bad as the offense in the first half and could not get the TO's THEY had been getting all year even with four excellent opportunities.

[Lidderer]

So now we're comparing Jake to Marino?

I totally don't understand your post. As far as I know, Marino is defined by the fact that he hasn't won a Superbowl. It's the first thing I think of when I think of Marino: No Ringo.

I should alter the statement to make it more clear:

Quarterbacks are defined by what they do and don't do in the playoffs.

I think BMF's point is that you can't say "QBs are defined by what they do in the playoffs" and then say "Any coach would take Manning over Plummer".

It just makes no sense.

[BMF Bronco]

So now we're comparing Jake to Marino?

I totally don't understand your post. As far as I know, Marino is defined by the fact that he hasn't won a Superbowl. It's the first thing I think of when I think of Marino: No Ringo.

I should alter the statement to make it more clear:

Quarterbacks are defined by what they do and don't do in the playoffs.
Whoa there twisty, I didn't compare him to Marino, I used the fact that Marino (in most circles) is defined by the records he holds and one of the best QB's ever, the hasn't won a super bowl is a sub-let thing. Beyond our group here (elway defenders in the best qb arguement), we're the ones who think of the no ring thing. Everyone else in the nation is stuck on his 85 bazillion yards passing (oh $hit, another exaggeration). My point of this whole thing is to quit focusing on jake's mishaps, which unfortunately came to the best team in the world this year, and look forward the the promise he's showing now and where that's going to take us this coming year.

[Rascal]

Why don't you comment on how it's deteriorated so badly? I'm not the one with the burden of proof here.

LOL

Pretty simple:
2003: Portis, Sharpe, Lelie, and Smith
2004: Droughns, Putzier, Lelie, and Smith
2005: Anderson, Putzier, Lelie, and Smith

[Popps]

You win a lot of playoff games with three first half points at home.

Ummm... do yourself a favor and check out the box score of the Patriots game. We didn't score our first TD until there were just a couple minutes left in the first half.

We held the Patriots to 3 points in that half.

We DIDN'T come out and go ass-up, allowing 24 points in a half, or 34 or 24... as we did against Pitt and against Indy the prior two years.

Amazing that the game where we came out and played a little defense in the first half.... we won, huh? Isn't that amazing? Even though we scored very few points in the early going, we still won. I wonder if that's why the cliche' that defense wins championships has stuck around for so long?

It's amazing to me how people insist on looking at a round Earth... and proclaiming that it's flat.

[montrose]

Wow, I thought this topic was about Lelie...

[Rascal]

Wow, I thought this topic was about Lelie...

If it consists of the offense it includes Jake.

[Mediator12]

Oh, I see... leading the league in YPC two years in a row doesn't speak to the QBs ability to throw the long ball, apparently I have to watch the tape and see if Ashley is standing up when he catches the ball? (Whatever that means.)

Got it.

It means that Lelie AND Plummer lost seven TD's and over 250+ yards on plays where Lelie had to leave his feet to make a catch when he was four+ yards behind the defense. It means that Lelie lost a lot of Opportunities for any YAC on the short catches diving twisiting and turning to catch wayward Balls. It means that there were nine times when Lelie was Behind the defense and Jake's pass was not even in the same Zip Code. Come On Popps ;)

Whatever. Break it down by wins... break it down by stats... he's an extremely productive QB. Lelie is a novelty receiver and a one-trick pony.

Productive QB, yes. Better than a solid starter, probably not.

[Mile High Shack]

Why don't you comment on how it's deteriorated so badly? I'm not the one with the burden of proof here.

Rod is another year older

we aren't as talented as we were at running back with Clinton Portis

our oline isn't as good as it use to be

our TE is worse w/o Sharpe

shall I go on?

oh yeah, then you add in the one-trick pony Lelie factor

[Popps]

Wow, I thought this topic was about Lelie...

It is.

Lelie apologists have what we call a "cycle of blame"... where they point fingers at everyone from the quarterback to the beer vendors for Ashley's less than stellar production. You just came in during the Plummer part of that cycle. Stick around, they'll blame the coaches, later.

This cycle was originally perfected by Taco John in defense of Brian Griese.

[Mile High Shack]

If it consists of the offense it includes Jake.

that's just it

people can't admit that Lelie isn't going to do well in our offense, it's all Jake's fault or Shanny can't use Lelie effectively

Jake is the ligtning rod, just like Griese was

I sense a pattern, but I won't say it to piss off the Jake haters

[Popps]

Productive QB, yes. Better than a solid starter, probably not.

Right... the earth is flat. You SAY it is, so it must be true.

Meanwhile, the guy's busted his ass for this team, busted up Elway's records, taken us to the playoffs every year and has an off the charts winning percentage.

But, since you SAY he's only average, it must be true.

[Rascal]

It is.

Lelie apologists have what we call a "cycle of blame"... where they point fingers at everyone from the quarterback to the beer vendors for Ashley's less than stellar production. You just came in during the Plummer part of that cycle. Stick around, they'll blame the coaches, later.

This cycle was originally perfected by Taco John in defense of Brian Griese.

they already have blamed the coaches by using the "coaches aren't using him effectively" comments.

[Rascal]

Productive QB, yes. Better than a solid starter, probably not.

Pure speculation on your part while statistics and facts would say otherwise.

[watermock]

Taco took a stand against Jake after last years 20 pick season and he's as obstinant as the next poster. I just think we used Lelie too much as a "stretch" player since he got here, and I think he's played softer than we expected...this wasn't the Pac 10 in Hawaii. I don't think he has been used right, primarily as someone to clear out two defenders, so it's no surprise Rod would be designed to go into the vacated space. It's really that simple.

[Mile High Shack]

Pure speculation on your part while statistics and facts would say otherwise.

I think they assume people who stick up for Jake are Jake lovers

that isn't the case

I just can't imagine any other QB that is available since 2003 being any better than what we have

we are what we are and until we get something better, there isn't a whole lot we can do about it

so if we draft a youngster to replace Jake in 2007, more power to us, I'm all about getting Denver to be a better team, I'm not married to Jake, but I get sick of all the Jake bashing based on no facts

[Traveler]

I think that if Jake didn't throw that first pick, we'd have won the game. Likewise, I was convinced we were going to win the game in the second half up until the point that Jake threw his second pick. That was game over.


Jake mentioned this in his recent interview.

[Rascal]

I think they assume people who stick up for Jake are Jake lovers

that isn't the case

I just can't imagine any other QB that is available since 2003 being any better than what we have

we are what we are and until we get something better, there isn't a whole lot we can do about it

so if we draft a youngster to replace Jake in 2007, more power to us, I'm all about getting Denver to be a better team, I'm not married to Jake, but I get sick of all the Jake bashing based on no facts

Personally I think the bust ratio on rookie QB especially is too high to warrent the risk of a high draft pick.

I'd like to see some kind of numbers for bust %'s among the different positions.

[Mile High Shack]

Personally I think the bust ratio on rookie QB especially is too high to warrent the risk of a high draft pick.

I'd like to see some kind of numbers for bust %'s among the different positions.

I'm saying someone in the later rounds, like a #4 or #5 pick

I don't think Mr. CSU is the answer to our future at QB, so it only makes sense to try and get someone for future use

[Man-Goblin]

LOL

Pretty simple:
2003: Portis, Sharpe, Lelie, and Smith
2004: Droughns, Putzier, Lelie, and Smith
2005: Anderson, Putzier, Lelie, and Smith

2006: Dayne, Alexander, Charlie Adams, Smith....
2007: Dayne, Alexander, Adams, Devoe

I think it's time to draft some offensive talent boys!!!

[Mediator12]

Ummm... do yourself a favor and check out the box score of the Patriots game. We didn't score our first TD until there were just a couple minutes left in the first half.

We held the Patriots to 3 points in that half.

We DIDN'T come out and go ass-up, allowing 24 points in a half, or 34 or 24... as we did against Pitt and against Indy the prior two years.

Amazing that the game where we came out and played a little defense in the first half.... we won, huh? Isn't that amazing? Even though we scored very few points in the early going, we still won. I wonder if that's why the cliche' that defense wins championships has stuck around for so long?

It's amazing to me how people insist on looking at a round Earth... and proclaiming that it's flat.

I know it is frustrating dealing with a guy who holds no consistency in his arguments and jumps around to try and look good ;D

The OFFENSE did nothing in any of the FOUR first halves of Jake's Playoff Career. The defense did show up for one Game out of four though and the Broncos won by Gifting the offense 17 points at home.

What does that tell you Popps? That if the defense does not play their best Jake Plummer can not win a game by himself. The Broncos have one 4th Quarter "Comeback" in the three years Jake has been here. Impressive, no. The defense has always been the key NOT Plummer. Plummer wins with a great veteran team around him, not because he makes everyone around him better.

That is the essence of Jake. He can make plays out of nothing, but makes few plays that are designed. He can escape sacks, but can not read a three step drop. He can play with a lead, but do not force him to be aggressive.

As for Lelie, he is a dog with fleas in Denver. He may or may not be very good somewhere else. Only one thing is for sure. His days are numbered here. I am not a Lelie supporter BTW.

[Mile High Shack]

2006: Dayne, Alexander, Charlie Adams, Smith....
2007: Dayne, Alexander, Adams, Devoe

I think it's time to draft some offensive talent boys!!!

no kidding

let's see how well Jake could do with some real offensive talent behind him

Rod is GREAT, but he's 36 years old for crying out loud
and our RBs are ok, and they will get us over 1,000 yards (one of them...whoever that is) but none of them really scare opposing D coordinators for the long haul

[Ratboy]

people can't admit that Lelie isn't going to do well in our offense, it's all Jake's fault or Shanny can't use Lelie effectively

Lelie wont succeed well in this type of offense, It's partially Plummer's fault too. Plummer isn't the most accurate qb in the league, but i won't just blame Plummer. It's the way Lelie plays, He could have 1300 yards in someone elses offense, just not Shanahans.

[Mile High Shack]

Lelie wont succeed well in this type of offense, It's partially Plummer's fault too. Plummer isn't the most accurate qb in the league, but i won't just blame Plummer. It's the way Lelie plays, He could have 1300 yards in someone elses offense, just not Shanahans.

maybe in 1988 in Houston's run and shoot offense