Creationism Destroyed

[Rohirrim]

For years, creationists have argued that their key “proof” that Darwinism is wrong is that no “transitional fossils” exist, that is fossils showing transitions between creatures (reptile to bird, fish to walking amphibian or land reptile, etc.). As Duane Gish of the Institute for Creation Research put it “… paleontologists have yet to discover any transitional fossils between complex invertebrates and fish, and this destroys the whole evolutionary theory.”

Here ya go, Duane: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12168265/


“We’ve got Archaeopteryx, an early whale that lived on land, and now this animal, showing the transition from fish to tetrapod. What more do we need from the fossil record to show that the creationists are flatly wrong.” Michael Novacek, Paleontologist, American Museum of Natural History N.Y.

[Mile High Shack]

big deal
there are fish that can go on land now

mudskippers

the title of the thread sure is funny though

DESTROYED

you'd make a good writer for the Star or Enquirer or something

I just finished the article

I have never seen so much speculation in my life from supposed scientists

"could be"
"suggest"

talk about having faith in something

[Rohirrim]

I get it. This is not simply a fish. This is an animal making a transition into something else. So when paleontologists discover a fossil that DOES represent a transitional animal, you simply say, "It doesn't exist." Cool.

[enjolras]

I think you missed the point.

The whole breakthrough here is not that we had a animal that co-existed in both water and land, but rather a clear transition from a pure water-dwelling species to a pure land-dwelling one. You can literally look at this fossil record and see the transition in body structure.

That's huge. It's a missing piece that we've been lacking in fully understanding how this type of evolution occured.

I agree that it does not dispel creationism (particularly 'old earth' creationism), but it does provide vital insight into the evolutionary process. It is the most compelling evidence yet that large inter-speciel evolution has occured in our development.

This does directly challenge the young-earth creationists key tenent that there is no proof that species have evolved in the 'macro' sense. They're going to have to go back to the drawing board with that one.

[enjolras]

While we are at it:

I have never seen so much speculation in my life from supposed scientists

"could be"
"suggest"

talk about having faith in something

This gem shows just how little you know about science in the first place. For a scientist, absolute statements require the upmost care. Statements such as the ones you attack show a strong belief in the truth. The process compells a scientist to keep from making absolute judgements until a finding can be verified and re-verified controlling for all other possible explanations.

It doesn't mean the scientist does not trust their findings, but rather that they understand the complexity of the world they live in. Black and white statements are the most foolish kind you can make, because the truth is rarely that easy to spot. A lesson that would serve this country well going forward.

[Mile High Shack]

While we are at it:



This gem shows just how little you know about science in the first place. For a scientist, absolute statements require the upmost care. Statements such as the ones you attack show a strong belief in the truth. The process compells a scientist to keep from making absolute judgements until a finding can be verified and re-verified controlling for all other possible explanations.

It doesn't mean the scientist does not trust their findings, but rather that they understand the complexity of the world they live in. Black and white statements are the most foolish kind you can make, because the truth is rarely that easy to spot. A lesson that would serve this country well going forward.

in other words

they are living by faith in their science

some choose God, others choose man to believe in

[TailgateNut]

in other words

they are living by faith in their science

some choose God, others choose man to believe in


In other words, some base their statements on research, while others base theirs on belief!

[Mile High Shack]

In other words, some base their statements on research, while others base theirs on belief!

you have to have faith that this creature they found is a transititional fossil, rather than just a creature who spent a lot of time in and out of the water...pure speculation

:)

I'm perfectly fine with God creating this world and universe we live in and everyone will believe it too when they die

[Rohirrim]

I give up. If you're comfortable with walking around in the 21st century with an 11th century mind, who am I to argue? Did you know that the brain is the body's cooling system, blood letting will cure most diseases and witches float? ;D

[Garcia Bronco]

I don't care what people believe...just keep it to yourself.

[TailgateNut]

:)

I'm perfectly fine with God creating this world and universe we live in and everyone will believe it too when they die


LOL What! When I die, I plan to turn into DUST! YOU?

[Mile High Shack]

I give up. If you're comfortable with walking around in the 21st century with an 11th century mind, who am I to argue? Did you know that the brain is the body's cooling system, blood letting will cure most diseases and witches float? ;D

why thank you

I appreciate your curt attitude

I do not have an 11th century mind, many brilliant minds believe in creationism

it's not my fault you are so hell bent against any form of religion, your hate seeths through every post related to religion

maybe a priest raped you as a younger child, I don't know, but obviously you have some serious issues with religion and religious people

[Mile High Shack]

LOL What! When I die, I plan to turn into DUST! YOU?

my mortal body will for sure

my immortal soul will hopefully spend eternity in heaven with God

[El Guapo]

you know darwins last words?

-forgive me God for I have sinned.

[alkemical]

why can't ID & evolution exist at the same time? To me that's as plain as the sun rising and setting about the co-existance between the two.

[Rascal]

why can't ID & evolution exist at the same time? To me that's as plain as the sun rising and setting about the co-existance between the two.

Personally that is something I think is very likely. I have no claim to know how God did this or that in creating life, earth, universe, etc. Could he have used evolution...if he wanted to why not.

[Rohirrim]

why thank you

I appreciate your curt attitude

I do not have an 11th century mind, many brilliant minds believe in creationism

it's not my fault you are so hell bent against any form of religion, your hate seeths through every post related to religion

maybe a priest raped you as a younger child, I don't know, but obviously you have some serious issues with religion and religious people

No, I just see the fog of religion that descended across the pages of mankind's history, blinding him, making him ignorant, filling him with judgment and fear, holding him back, creating war and misery and separation between peoples that leads to even more misery. I see the burning of the Library of Alexandria by Christian zealots robbing human posterity of centuries of knowledge and the burning at the stake of those who chose their individual observations of life over the edicts of some church. I see the fundamentalists in the Arab world who believe in the core of their being that God is telling them to bomb children and I see Christian fundamentalists who aren't really any different. How do you save the unborn child? Bomb the abortion clinic and kill a security guard. What's the difference? I see religion as a plague of ignorance that sweeps across the earth and threatens to destroy mankind's future better than any microbe could. I see billions of gallons of blood spilled in the name of some god or another that started in our prehistory and continues to this day. Other than that, no problemo. ;D

[alkemical]

Personally that is something I think is very likely. I have no claim to know how God did this or that in creating life, earth, universe, etc. Could he have used evolution...if he wanted to why not.


Rascal -

I don't know god, etc - or how he did things beyond what man has had written to explain it. Seeing how everything is linked, either in ecology or whatnot - that evolution is very prominent in everyday examples of bugs, animals, and even humans.

I don't under stand why it has to be 'either/or'. when infact the bridge and separation is created by stupid humans who are too tied in their own agendas. It's not about which god or designer created us, but why not enjoy and revel in this vast world that we inhabit.

[Mile High Shack]

No, I just see the fog of religion that descended across the pages of mankind's history, blinding him, making him ignorant, filling him with judgment and fear, holding him back, creating war and misery and separation between peoples that leads to even more misery. I see the burning of the Library of Alexandria by Christian zealots robbing human posterity of centuries of knowledge and the burning at the stake of those who chose their individual observations of life over the edicts of some church. I see the fundamentalists in the Arab world who believe in the core of their being that God is telling them to bomb children and I see Christian fundamentalists who aren't really any different. How do you save the unborn child? Bomb the abortion clinic and kill a security guard. What's the difference? I see religion as a plague of ignorance that sweeps across the earth and threatens to destroy mankind's future better than any microbe could. I see billions of gallons of blood spilled in the name of some god or another that started in our prehistory and continues to this day. Other than that, no problemo. ;D

just b/c someone does something in the name of God doesn't mean they are truly following God's will, if you read the bible you'd know that

[Rascal]

Rascal -

I don't know god, etc - or how he did things beyond what man has had written to explain it. Seeing how everything is linked, either in ecology or whatnot - that evolution is very prominent in everyday examples of bugs, animals, and even humans.

I don't under stand why it has to be 'either/or'. when infact the bridge and separation is created by stupid humans who are too tied in their own agendas. It's not about which god or designer created us, but why not enjoy and revel in this vast world that we inhabit.

Exactly. I don't really care one way or another and the only time I even think about this is when somebody brings it up here. Trying to put a box around or explain how things are done with our own human falacies and limitiations is laughable IMO.

[Rohirrim]

just b/c someone does something in the name of God doesn't mean they are truly following God's will, if you read the bible you'd know that

So, you think you are following God's will? I got news for you. All those other people I mentioned think they are also following God's will. That's the problem. The Son of Sam thought his dog was channeling God's will. It's purely subjective.

[Mile High Shack]

So, you think you are following God's will? I got news for you. All those other people I mentioned think they are also following God's will. That's the problem. The Son of Sam thought his dog was channeling God's will. It's purely subjective.

NO it's not

all you have to do is read the bible

those that you mention do things OUTSIDE OF IT

it's NOT SUBJECTIVE!!!!!!!!!!

don't listen to what men tell you, what dog's tell you, what sheep tell you, what anyone else tells you...READ THE BIBLE

[alkemical]

Exactly. I don't really care one way or another and the only time I even think about this is when somebody brings it up here. Trying to put a box around or explain how things are done with our own human falacies and limitiations is laughable IMO.


Hey i'm a gnostic - and the fact is - i will admit i don't know. I won't claim to know. To be honest, it's not uncomfortable not knowing where we came from, etc - Now is what's important.


Maybe i'm too much of a compsci dork - but when i see ants doing their job, and spiders, and bobcats, etc - to me everything is an 'application' being run. Through our compulsions we complete the job we are supposed to do on earth. Both good and bad.

[alkemical]

NO it's not

all you have to do is read the bible

those that you mention do things OUTSIDE OF IT

it's NOT SUBJECTIVE!!!!!!!!!!

don't listen to what men tell you, what dog's tell you, what sheep tell you, what anyone else tells you...READ THE BIBLE


what about talking plants that are on fire?

[Mile High Shack]

what about talking plants that are on fire?

that was how God talked to Moses

I don't believe that has happened since ;)

[alkemical]

that was how God talked to Moses

I don't believe that has happened since ;)


Even if it did, everyone would say they would by lying and kill them for heresy.

[Falconer]

No, I just see the fog of religion that descended across the pages of mankind's history, blinding him, making him ignorant, filling him with judgment and fear, holding him back, creating war and misery and separation between peoples that leads to even more misery. I see the burning of the Library of Alexandria by Christian zealots robbing human posterity of centuries of knowledge and the burning at the stake of those who chose their individual observations of life over the edicts of some church. I see the fundamentalists in the Arab world who believe in the core of their being that God is telling them to bomb children and I see Christian fundamentalists who aren't really any different. How do you save the unborn child? Bomb the abortion clinic and kill a security guard. What's the difference? I see religion as a plague of ignorance that sweeps across the earth and threatens to destroy mankind's future better than any microbe could. I see billions of gallons of blood spilled in the name of some god or another that started in our prehistory and continues to this day. Other than that, no problemo. ;D

Please Rohirrim, if you believe that religion is the principle force behind all of the actions you have accused it of you would have to be blind and ignorant. If there was no religion in this world, all of the things you stated would have just as readily come to pass, just under another guise. The accumulation of wealth and power are what really drives most individuals and organizations. Be it the church, the Nazi's, the Romans, or the big corporate machine.

[Rascal]

Hey i'm a gnostic - and the fact is - i will admit i don't know. I won't claim to know. To be honest, it's not uncomfortable not knowing where we came from, etc - Now is what's important.


Maybe i'm too much of a compsci dork - but when i see ants doing their job, and spiders, and bobcats, etc - to me everything is an 'application' being run. Through our compulsions we complete the job we are supposed to do on earth. Both good and bad.

IMO nobody knows and some feel compelled that they must have an answer so they either believe in creationism or evolution. Others such as yourself, see no reason to concern oneself with such things. I understand each position and the reasoning behind them. I can appreciate somebody's belief (whether people want to admit it or not) in either or both situations. What I find idiotic is when somebody who believes X insults/degrades/etc somebody who believes in Y. If you want to believe in creationism fine, if you want to believe in evolution fine, if you want to believe in both or neither that is also fine. But I'm not going to sit here and act like I'm morally or intellectually superior because I don't happen to agree with you.

[Rohirrim]

NO it's not

all you have to do is read the bible

those that you mention do things OUTSIDE OF IT

it's NOT SUBJECTIVE!!!!!!!!!!

don't listen to what men tell you, what dog's tell you, what sheep tell you, what anyone else tells you...READ THE BIBLE


I got news for you. People make the Bible say anything they want it to say. I guarantee you, if I went to New Guinea and hiked for days up into some remote valley and found some little aborigine who had never heard of the bible, and I sat there and read out loud to him the gospels. Then if I asked him, “Do you think Jesus would have supported capital punishment?” I guarantee you this aborigine would say, “Oh, no way. He was all about love thy neighbor as yourself, judge not others, cast the first stone, etc.” And yet millions of American Christians believe that capital punishment is not only perfectly wonderful, it’s ordained by Christ. And these are the same people who say that abortion is murder. You can make the Bible say anything you want it to say.

[alkemical]

IMO nobody knows and some feel compelled that they must have an answer so they either believe in creationism or evolution. Others such as yourself, see no reason to concern oneself with such things. I understand each position and the reasoning behind them. I can appreciate somebody's belief (whether people want to admit it or not) in either or both situations. What I find idiotic is when somebody who believes X insults/degrades/etc somebody who believes in Y. If you want to believe in creationism fine, if you want to believe in evolution fine, if you want to believe in both or neither that is also fine. But I'm not going to sit here and act like I'm morally or intellectually superior because I don't happen to agree with you.


Oh i know rascal - angryllama tried to make fun of my magical background - but it doesn't bother me - i don't find the need to ridicule and degrade another's religion unless it's meritied. then when i do it, half the time it is out of pure jest (hence the burning bush joke i made ealier).

And i've had glory mule try to convert me too.

Fact is, i'm much more comfortable with my eastern philosophy over top of western concepts of esoterism.

But back to sci/religion - I don't see why there has to be this HUGE gap between the two. I mean where doeth it sayeth thateth religious beliefeth must noteth enter the reallllllm of scientificeth inquirus?

(sorry i am wierd today)

[Rascal]

Oh i know rascal - angryllama tried to make fun of my magical background - but it doesn't bother me - i don't find the need to ridicule and degrade another's religion unless it's meritied. then when i do it, half the time it is out of pure jest (hence the burning bush joke i made ealier).

And i've had glory mule try to convert me too.

Fact is, i'm much more comfortable with my eastern philosophy over top of western concepts of esoterism.

But back to sci/religion - I don't see why there has to be this HUGE gap between the two. I mean where doeth it sayeth thateth religious beliefeth must noteth enter the reallllllm of scientificeth inquirus?

(sorry i am wierd today)

lol

I don't know why there is a gap. And where doeth it sayeth thateh scientificeth inquirus must noteth enter the realllm of religious beliefeth?

That's why I stated that for all we know, those who believe in creationism, God may have used evolution as a tool. Frankly I don't know and I find it humorous for anyone to claim they know.

[Hogan11]

Life is so much easier when you just don't care about things such as this.

[TailgateNut]

Life is so much easier when you just don't care about things such as this.

No doubt. I really don't give a flying fvck about whatever religion/ god other people believe in, but it bothers the heck out of me when they attempt to make me believe in their illusions.

[Taco John]

So where's the transitional fossil that goes from Alligatorfish to Monkey?


Amusing thread, but doesn't really "destroy" or even solve anything...

[Mile High Shack]

No doubt. I really don't give a flying fvck about whatever religion/ god other people believe in, but it bothers the heck out of me when they attempt to make me believe in their illusions.

and conversely it bothers the heck out of me when you say stuff like this

[Spider]

Just great , just when I started accpeting the fact that there is a god , you pricks have to go and destroy it ...........

[alkemical]

lol

I don't know why there is a gap. And where doeth it sayeth thateh scientificeth inquirus must noteth enter the realllm of religious beliefeth?

That's why I stated that for all we know, those who believe in creationism, God may have used evolution as a tool. Frankly I don't know and I find it humorous for anyone to claim they know.


Same here man, drink a beer today - i owe you for laughing at my humor today...

[Rascal]

Same here man, drink a beer today - i owe you for laughing at my humor today...

I'm getting a new Scoth today so I'll drink that instead. :thumbsup:

Somebody on here recommended highland park 12 year scotch and after looking it over I think I'll give it a shot.

[alkemical]

I'm getting a new Scoth today so I'll drink that instead. :thumbsup:

Somebody on here recommended highland park 12 year scotch and after looking it over I think I'll give it a shot.


Being that i am.... not the most clean cut - i aquired some green liquor the other week and i think i will be using that..... after work

[Rascal]

Being that i am.... not the most clean cut - i aquired some green liquor the other week and i think i will be using that..... after work

after work...pansy...like they would know.

[alkemical]

after work...pansy...like they would know.


lol - i figure they got my loyalty with hard cash, the least i can do is do my 40 sober.... :)

[epicSocialism4tw]

While we are at it:



This gem shows just how little you know about science in the first place. For a scientist, absolute statements require the upmost care. Statements such as the ones you attack show a strong belief in the truth. The process compells a scientist to keep from making absolute judgements until a finding can be verified and re-verified controlling for all other possible explanations.

It doesn't mean the scientist does not trust their findings, but rather that they understand the complexity of the world they live in. Black and white statements are the most foolish kind you can make, because the truth is rarely that easy to spot. A lesson that would serve this country well going forward.

Good post. You have made good contributions to this thread.

[alkemical]

and conversely it bothers the heck out of me when you say stuff like this


is it any different for anyone else of a religion that feels as you do? I mean their god is right and yours is wrong.

I mean, what two out of the 3 majors say christ was a prophet..... :)

It's ok though, being a gnostic aligned with some diesm - i recieve my fair share of hate mail.

[sisterhellfyre]

Wonder if Moses knew something that Ricky Williams has rediscovered?

Whatever that burning bush was, I want some.

Regards,
m.

[alkemical]

You know, in the shaman beliefs - when you ingest or smoke something that alters your consciousness - you take on the spirit of that plant - which leads you into other worlds.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Whatever that burning bush was, I want some.


I dont think that you're alone in that desire.

[TailgateNut]

and conversely it bothers the heck out of me when you say stuff like this


Why would it bother you. You entered the thread attempting to discredit the information based on your belief which is based on what? And don't reply with the "Bible". I want facts!

[Rohirrim]

So where's the transitional fossil that goes from Alligatorfish to Monkey?


Amusing thread, but doesn't really "destroy" or even solve anything...

Well, maybe I indulged in a little thread "salesmanship." ;D If I titled it "Interesting Fossil Found," nobody would have read the damn thing.

[TailgateNut]

I'm getting a new Scoth today so I'll drink that instead. :thumbsup:

Somebody on here recommended highland park 12 year scotch and after looking it over I think I'll give it a shot.

Try Balvinnie Port when you get the chance. It is one of the best I've had.
The 12yr old isn't bad, but the 15yr old is SMOOTH!:thumbsup:

[TailgateNut]

Being that i am.... not the most clean cut - i aquired some green liquor the other week and i think i will be using that..... after work


Green Liquor?????

[Mile High Shack]

Why would it bother you. You entered the thread attempting to discredit the information based on your belief which is based on what? And don't reply with the "Bible". I want facts!

it's based on conjecture that it's a transition fossil

where is the fossil from lizard to monkey as TJ stated

[Mile High Shack]

Well, maybe I indulged in a little thread "salesmanship." ;D If I titled it "Interesting Fossil Found," nobody would have read the damn thing.

Like I said

Gonna call you Star Rohirrim
or Enquirer Rohirrim

[TailgateNut]

Wonder if Moses knew something that Ricky Williams has rediscovered?

Whatever that burning bush was, I want some.

Regards,
m.

ROFL! I think you need lots of what Ricky has to be able to see the burning bush!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Why would it bother you. You entered the thread attempting to discredit the information based on your belief which is based on what? And don't reply with the "Bible". I want facts!

To him, the Bible is full of dependable facts, and there is nothing wrong with that. If you look at how long the text and the philosophy has remained in tact relative to the tenets of scientific philosophy, Shack has a really good argument.

The problem comes with the popular assumption that the Bible and Christian philosophy are false and untrue. The Judeo-Christian philosophy has withstood every discovery of science and every social advancement in modern history. There's no reason to believe that it will not survive the discovery of a transitional fossil.

You are making a mistake by completely dismissing the philosophy that helped birth the western empiricism that created the scientific method.

[TailgateNut]

it's based on conjecture that it's a transition fossil

where is the fossil from lizard to monkey as TJ stated


That didn't address my question!

[enjolras]

you know darwins last words?

-forgive me God for I have sinned.

Nope.. they where :

“I am not the least afraid to die.”

Said to his wife.

http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/rants/0212a-almanac.htm

[alkemical]

Green Liquor?????


it glows under a black light....

[alkemical]

To him, the Bible is full of dependable facts, and there is nothing wrong with that. If you look at how long the text and the philosophy has remained in tact relative to the tenets of scientific philosophy, Shack has a really good argument.

The problem comes with the popular assumption that the Bible and Christian philosophy are false and untrue. The Judeo-Christian philosophy has withstood every discovery of science and every social advancement in modern history. There's no reason to believe that it will not survive the discovery of a transitional fossil.

You are making a mistake by completely dismissing the philosophy that helped birth the western empiricism that created the scientific method.


i dunno, math and science were around before christ -

[enjolras]

To him, the Bible is full of dependable facts, and there is nothing wrong with that. If you look at how long the text and the philosophy has remained in tact relative to the tenets of scientific philosophy, Shack has a really good argument.

The problem comes with the popular assumption that the Bible and Christian philosophy are false and untrue. The Judeo-Christian philosophy has withstood every discovery of science and every social advancement in modern history. There's no reason to believe that it will not survive the discovery of a transitional fossil.

You are making a mistake by completely dismissing the philosophy that helped birth the western empiricism that created the scientific method.

You could certainly make the argument that this philosophy was largely the death of empiricism in the first place. The dark ages where largely a christian creation.

I do agree that the PHILISOPHY of christianity has withstood the test of time. Its a very simple and very compelling way to live ones life. For that, it SHOULD live as long as this world does.

That doesn't mean the assertions of the bible have fared similiarly well. As a historical record the Bible is rather undependable...

As a scientist who is also a Christian I make that distinction.

[sisterhellfyre]

ROFL! I think you need lots of what Ricky has to be able to see the burning bush!

Or a redheaded cheerleader in a short skirt... ;-)

Regards,
m.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

For years, creationists have argued that their key “proof” that Darwinism is wrong is that no “transitional fossils” exist, that is fossils showing transitions between creatures (reptile to bird, fish to walking amphibian or land reptile, etc.). As Duane Gish of the Institute for Creation Research put it “… paleontologists have yet to discover any transitional fossils between complex invertebrates and fish, and this destroys the whole evolutionary theory.”

Here ya go, Duane: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12168265/


“We’ve got Archaeopteryx, an early whale that lived on land, and now this animal, showing the transition from fish to tetrapod. What more do we need from the fossil record to show that the creationists are flatly wrong.” Michael Novacek, Paleontologist, American Museum of Natural History N.Y.

Quit spamming the board with Marxist propaganda, Ro! ;)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I give up. If you're comfortable with walking around in the 21st century with an 11th century mind, who am I to argue?

Ro - meet Dubya's base.

Dubya's base - meet Ro.

:D