I know you are proud to be American but are you proud of your government?

[baja]

This is an Open Poll

Today are you proud of your President and Congress

[sirhcyennek81]

Yes, and yes. Even of the democrats. This is our government, elected by us.

:Broncos:

[yavoon]

Yes, and yes. Even of the democrats. This is our government, elected by us.

:Broncos:

well thats a hard criteria to meet.

"are u proud of ur government?"

"yes"

"why?"

"we elected them"

[bendog]

What's astounding to me is that supposedly only about 30 seats in the house and senate are actually competitive. I'm reading McCullough's biog of John Adams, and it makes me ill contemplating our current leaders to compare.

[alkemical]

no doubt bendog -

[baja]

Please Vote

[baja]

Pez (Thanks) was kind enough to leave this here so we could all get to see this and vote later it will be moved to the political forum and we can discuss it further but for now just vote please

[GSRelyea]

I am proud!! God Bless America & George W. Bush
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/GSRelyea/200502022209099900011.jpg

[Merlin]

well thats a hard criteria to meet.

"are u proud of ur government?"

"yes"

"why?"

"we elected them"
Nicely noted Yavoon.

[Bronx33]

I would like my vote to reflect this:

No, I am dissatisfied with the leaders.

[Merlin]

What's astounding to me is that supposedly only about 30 seats in the house and senate are actually competitive. I'm reading McCullough's biog of John Adams, and it makes me ill contemplating our current leaders to compare.
Not to disagree with you, but what does it mean when one of the least known founding fathers is the one who opposed the original US constitution because it contained no bill of rights and the final document did not address the abolition of slavery.

I am not trying to take a hit on anybody, it is just an interesting fact, and I thought it was worth mentioning especially since "his" University made the final 4 ;)

[12th man]

this is a good tough question. I am proud of our government. simply because there is none better in the world. what is good about our government is that we elect the people we want. then if we think they are doing a good job we elect them again.

now as far as GW goes. the guy is retarded. not one of our best presidents. even republicans are beginning to question him. since he has been in office, things have seemed to go down hill. the national dept, economy, even this war is in question. I guess the thing that ticked me off is it seemes we put more emphasis on sadaam than ossama. yes, I beleive sadaam needed to be gone, but it should have not been our number one priority. we needed more empasis on capturing bin ladin. so to answere the question, i quess im not proud of have a dumbass president, but am proud we have a system that wont allow him to be president again. thank god. so, I quess im proud of our government, just not Bush.

[Orange_Beard]

Bunch of Fat heads.

[Bronx33]

LAFFS going to just looooooove this thread. LOL

[Spider]

embarrassed doesnt even begin to describe how I feel ........ I am freaking pissed off ........one group is nothing more then Idiots ,and the other group needs to get a ****ing backbone ............. Incompetence and no backbone .........

[ludo21]

This country is AWESOME!!

I was blessed to born into it. Im proud of the way we do things.

Bush and co. are doing a terrible job, but we put them there, so i cant really complain.

[bendog]

I just had a thought: Dick Cheney likes to hunt 'with' Scalia. hmmm

[Tombstone RJ]

I haven't ever, once, been "proud" of the leadership skills of our leaders on Capital Hill (in my lifetime).

I really can't remember a time when I have not thought to myself "I could make better decisions then that clown, or those boobs."

Politics suck. Our leadership, across the board is questionable, and there is too much apathy in our population to do much about it.

[watermock]

First Baja doesn't even deserve to pose this question as he doesn't even live in the U.S.

Second, it's a typical leaning question with no relevance.

Third, if your not satisfied, go vote. If you don't like our leaders vote them out. It's not rocket science. The stone cold fact is most voters don't have a clue.

[bendog]

So, mock, all those Americans who work overseas don't get to vote?

[SteveTensi13]

Even when the rapist Clinton was in office I was proud to be an American. This poll is too open ended. I don't agree with Bush's immigration policy or should I say lack thereof. But, then again he is handcuffed by the ACLU and 9th circuit court of appeals. On the whole I am pleased with the efforts of the Republican majority, it's those damn pre 9-11 thinking Democrats I am embarrassed of.

[Merlin]

Even when the rapist Clinton was in office
Does that make Bush a mass murderer? I do not believe the latter, but I am just trying to get the basis of the premises of the former.

[baja]

First Baja doesn't even deserve to pose this question as he doesn't even live in the U.S.

Second, it's a typical leaning question with no relevance.

Third, if your not satisfied, go vote. If you don't like our leaders vote them out. It's not rocket science. The stone cold fact is most voters don't have a clue.

It is not wise to post a photo of yourself as an avatar on a Internet BB.

[Garcia Bronco]

I would like my vote to reflect this:

No, I am dissatisfied with the leaders.


I agree.

[baja]

First Baja doesn't even deserve to pose this question as he doesn't even live in the U.S.

Second, it's a typical leaning question with no relevance.

Third, if your not satisfied, go vote. If you don't like our leaders vote them out. It's not rocket science. The stone cold fact is most voters don't have a clue.

Water moccasin or wet Indian foot wear.

I was born an American. I served 3 years in the US Army (1969 - 1971) I have voted in 8 presidential elections so you can kiss my red blooded American ass you acid reflux suffering fool.

A guy that names himself after a poisonous snake tells a lot about himself.

[bendog]

for a rapist, Clinton seems to get a lot of willing gash.

[Orange_Beard]

for a rapist, Clinton seems to get a lot of willing gash.

You are a DumbF**k

[Rock Chalk]

I would like my vote to reflect this:

No, I am dissatisfied with our leaders.
Fixed it for ya. Unless of course you are not an American in which case, feel free to find your way down to baja with the other pussy coward.

[alkemical]

Actually wouldn't 'leaving' be putting your money where your mouth is?

Doing nothing would be more a sign of cowardice.

[rbackfactory80]

Actually wouldn't 'leaving' be putting your money where your mouth is?

Doing nothing would be more a sign of cowardice.

It depends what reason you actually left for.

[Bronx33]

Fixed it for ya. Unless of course you are not an American in which case, feel free to find your way down to baja with the other p***Y coward.

If you only understood how stupid this sounds but thanks for chiming in (again)

[alkemical]

It depends what reason you actually left for.


Well, i live life to regret what i've done, not what i didn't do.

[Rock Chalk]

Water moccasin or wet Indian foot wear.

I was born an American. I served 3 years in the US Army (1969 - 1971) I have voted in 8 presidential elections so you can kiss my red blooded American ass you acid reflux suffering fool.

A guy that names himself after a poisonous snake tells a lot about himself.
Wow, 3 whole years in the army and 8 presidential elections.

You think that makes you a good American?

Not every Joe that serves is a good American and not every schmuck that votes is a good American.

A good American remains true to his/her country. A good American does not leave his country to live in another country.

Any schmuck can vote and any schmuck can join the army. Real Americans dont move out of their country unless forced by employment as a temporary thing or travelling with the military.

Since you are neither in the military nor employed, you are a bad Mexican, you damn sure arent American anymore.

[Rock Chalk]

If you only understood how stupid this sounds but thanks for chiming in (again)
Well, if stupidity were currency you'd be ****ing rich dickwad.

[alkemical]

I have no loyalty to this country until the gov't abides by the laws of the constitution.

Everyone who allows the gov't to operate everyday with impunity is a bad american.

[Bronx33]

Well, if stupidity were currency you'd be ****ing rich dillwad.

Your biscuit hurting?

[baja]

Wow, 3 whole years in the army and 8 presidential elections.

You think that makes you a good American?

Not every Joe that serves is a good American and not every schmuck that votes is a good American.

A good American remains true to his/her country. A good American does not leave his country to live in another country.

Any schmuck can vote and any schmuck can join the army. Real Americans dont move out of their country unless forced by employment as a temporary thing or travelling with the military.

Since you are neither in the military nor employed, you are a bad Mexican, you damn sure arent American anymore.

I wonder if you have any idea just how stupid you sound.

If I gave you a list of Americans that live/own property in foreign countries you might be shocked, hell half of Texas has a house in Cabo. The Americans that have made something of their lives can afford to have second homes and many of those homes are in countries other than good old USA but keep running that buffer, American, hey you missed a spot.

[Orange_Beard]

Fixed it for ya. Unless of course you are not an American in which case, feel free to find your way down to baja with the other p***Y coward.

Wow, your roll continues.
Maybe you should of had that drink over the weekend.

[Bronx33]

Wow, 3 whole years in the army and 8 presidential elections.

You think that makes you a good American?

Not every Joe that serves is a good American and not every schmuck that votes is a good American.

A good American remains true to his/her country. A good American does not leave his country to live in another country.

Any schmuck can vote and any schmuck can join the army. Real Americans dont move out of their country unless forced by employment as a temporary thing or travelling with the military.

Since you are neither in the military nor employed, you are a bad Mexican, you damn sure arent American anymore.


I what exactly qualifies you to judge other peoples actions? and should they really care what you think.

[Tombstone RJ]

I what exactly qualifies you to judge other peoples actions? and should they really care what you think.

C'mon, he's Alec, damnit!

I refer to him as Mr. Sunshine, because, ya know, he's sooo fun to talk to.:sunshine:

[scorpio]

This thread makes me proud to be an american

[Bronx33]

C'mon, he's Alec, damnit!

I refer to him as Mr. Sunshine, because, ya know, he's sooo fun to talk to.:sunshine:


Point taken :~ohyah!:

[sirhcyennek81]

well thats a hard criteria to meet.

"are u proud of ur government?"

"yes"

"why?"

"we elected them"


Sorry, where did it say I had to explain why I am proud of our government? Oh yeah, it doesnt. Jackass.

:Broncos:

[DomCasual]

Sure, there are incidents about which I am not proud. But as a whole, I think this presidency has dealt with issues unprecedented in our country's history. I believe they deserve to be judged, as a whole, by a slightly different set of standards for that reason.

[alkemical]

Not I said the fly

[Tombstone RJ]

Sure, there are incidents about which I am not proud. But as a whole, I think this presidency has dealt with issues unprecedented in our country's history. I believe they deserve to be judged, as a whole, by a slightly different set of standards for that reason.

I have to disagree. Why change the rules or standards for judgement? Pearl Harbor happened too, yet I don't think Roosevelt should be judged differently than any other president because he just happened to be sitting in the Whitehouse.

This is why we elect our leaders. To lead us. To make the difficult decisions. To step up and do the right thing. To inspire us to be better. This is why we need the best and brightest at the top. It doesn't get any more difficult than 9/11 and I refuse to say "well, damn, look at what he had to deal with, we need to go easy on this guy." Nope, sorry, doesn't work like that.

[sirhcyennek81]

Sure, there are incidents about which I am not proud. But as a whole, I think this presidency has dealt with issues unprecedented in our country's history. I believe they deserve to be judged, as a whole, by a slightly different set of standards for that reason.

Careful where you display this common sense...:thumbs:

:Broncos:

[DomCasual]

I have to disagree. Why change the rules or standards for judgement? Pearl Harbor happened too, yet I don't think Roosevelt should be judged differently than any other president because he just happened to be sitting in the Whitehouse.

This is why we elect our leaders. To lead us. To make the difficult decisions. To step up and do the right thing. To inspire us to be better. This is why we need the best and brightest at the top. It doesn't get any more difficult than 9/11 and I refuse to say "well, damn, look at what he had to deal with, we need to go easy on this guy." Nope, sorry, doesn't work like that.
Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me. Of course you have to put a presidency in the context of the issues it faced, because judging a presidency is a subjective process. There's no absolute score that can be kept.

The great presidents almost always have had a focal issue they dealt with, and how they handled that issue is what made their presidency memorable. In other words, their presidency is judged contextually. All the great presidents have failed at some things. But it is easier to overlook their failings because they dealt successfully with something of extreme historical significance.

[DownRiver Bronco Fan]

One thing to remember, Government and it's leaders are not reponsible for your life. You are. Government is NOT meant to be your big daddy, making sure you don't f*ck your life up. It's up to you to take care of yourself.

So in that light, I have absolutely no problems with our government

[sirhcyennek81]

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me. Of course you have to put a presidency in the context of the issues it faced, because judging a presidency is a subjective process. There's no absolute score that can be kept.

The great presidents almost always have had a focal issue they dealt with, and how they handled that issue is what made their presidency memorable. In other words, their presidency is judged contextually. All the great presidents have failed at some things. But it is easier to overlook their failings because they dealt successfully with something of extreme historical significance.

Lincoln trashed the concept of "branches of government" He had to do it to win the civil war. I believe in his day, the democrats who remained in congress and the senate wanted to impeach him. Things dont seem to change much in DC.

[DownRiver Bronco Fan]

I have no loyalty to this country until the gov't abides by the laws of the constitution.

Everyone who allows the gov't to operate everyday with impunity is a bad american.


just wondering what parts of the constitution you think aren't being followed

[sirhcyennek81]

Amazing thing about our government is, every so often, they hold these things called elections. You pick the guy you want, if enough people think this is the guy who can get it done, he gets elected. Government changes, and we settle back into the half the people hate/love the president/senate/congress...

[Cito Pelon]

I'm proud of our system of government. Longest lived Democracy/freely-elected government on the planet, baby. Sometimes you get some awful leadership. Nevertheless, Allah loves the USA.

[Spider]

reading some of these post , I just shake my head ............all I can say is , damn good thing you dont have to be smart to vote , just 18.........Cito pelon has it right on the money , as does a few others AmesJ has a pretty good head on his shoulders ........... But the nerve of Baja , to be sucsessfull , serve in the army , vote in 8 presedental elections , be able to afford to live where he wants without help , Dare to question Bush ...........How dare he .......Just goes to show , Baja knows how to make a living , provide for his family , but he isnt good enough American to question Bush .......

[Spider]

Ha! people making 8.00 an hour or less are clearly better Americans , cause they dont dare question King W.......

[DomCasual]

reading some of these post , I just shake my head ............all I can say is , damn good thing you dont have to be smart to vote , just 18.........Cito pelon has it right on the money , as does a few others AmesJ has a pretty good head on his shoulders ........... But the nerve of Baja , to be sucsessfull , serve in the army , vote in 8 presedental elections , be able to afford to live where he wants without help , Dare to question Bush ...........How dare he .......Just goes to show , Baja knows how to make a living , provide for his family , but he isnt good enough American to question Bush .......
So, let me summarize - tell me if I have it right.

Hate Bush = Smart, "good head on shoulders"

Don't Hate Bush = Idiot

Is that it?

[Spider]

So, let me summarize - tell me if I have it right.

Hate Bush = Smart, "good head on shoulders"

Don't Hate Bush = Idiot

Is that it?
read some of the post people left here ,amaing there isnt some kind of supervision for some ........ my post struck a nerve , then you need to do some soul searching ...........

[Hogan11]

Very dissatisfied. I never voted for this either time and things certainly haven't been beneficial for me with them in office, so why should I be happy with them at all?

2 more years of this group and then never again....I almost count the days.

[Cito Pelon]

Amazing thing about our government is, every so often, they hold these things called elections. You pick the guy you want, if enough people think this is the guy who can get it done, he gets elected. Government changes, and we settle back into the half the people hate/love the president/senate/congress...

And it is just amazing that it continues to work. No sarcasm intended, it really is amazing. Even more amazing is there is only about 10 stable democracies on the entire planet. After 2000 years of most people wanting democracy and stability, here we are in 2006 and the majority of democracies have only been in existence for 100-150 years. Australia is a long-standing one, as is Brazil, Great Britain was still a plutocracy til 1911, Spain didn't become a democracy til 1976, France until 1864 I believe. Not a good record. Gonna have to build up democracy.

[Sodak]

Vote Libertarian, vote green. Vote anything but Dem or Rep.

We have ONE more choice than the Soviet system where you either vote "for" or "against" a candidate.

It's time for some real choices.

No, I'm not satisfied.

[orinjkrush]

there are two parts to the "gubment". one is the elected clowns. the second is the professionals. the professionals are divided into two types: the social engineered part, and the really professional-professional type. the first two types suck. the last part holds it all together.

[Spider]

Vote Libertarian, vote green. Vote anything but Dem or Rep.

We have ONE more choice than the Soviet system where you either vote "for" or "against" a candidate.

It's time for some real choices.

No, I'm not satisfied.
;D I voted for Ross Perot ,but yeah if those parties best represent you .... Ralph nader , you just have to like the guy for what he has done for people , damn tempting to vote for .........

[Alkazar]

this is a good tough question. I am proud of our government. simply because there is none better in the world. what is good about our government is that we elect the people we want. then if we think they are doing a good job we elect them again.

now as far as GW goes. the guy is retarded. not one of our best presidents. even republicans are beginning to question him. since he has been in office, things have seemed to go down hill. the national dept, economy, even this war is in question. I guess the thing that ticked me off is it seemes we put more emphasis on sadaam than ossama. yes, I beleive sadaam needed to be gone, but it should have not been our number one priority. we needed more empasis on capturing bin ladin. so to answere the question, i quess im not proud of have a dumbass president, but am proud we have a system that wont allow him to be president again. thank god. so, I quess im proud of our government, just not Bush.

This was just for the vote, you can state your misguided political beliefs and inacurate "facts" after it is moved to the political forum.;)

[DomCasual]

read some of the post people left here ,amaing there isnt some kind of supervision for some ........ my post struck a nerve , then you need to do some soul searching ...........
It just seemed that you tried to paint things a bit more black and white than what is fair.

It's part of why I can't stomach LABF. It's every bit as predictable as Rush Limbaugh.

I don't lean dramatically one way or another politically (although, in fairness - I would say I lean more to the right than the left). But the left seems to be incapable of getting on the same page long enough to mount any kind of challenge against the right - and MY, are they capable of complaining! Another milquetoast approach in 2008 by the Democrats is likely to result in more of the same for our government (and thus, more incessant bitching from the left).

It's time to crap or get off the pot.

[Arkie]

I'm proud this thread was left on the front page.

Best political thread of the year. :thumbs:

[Spider]

It just seemed that you tried to paint things a bit more black and white than what is fair.

It's part of why I can't stomach LABF. It's every bit as predictable as Rush Limbaugh.

I don't lean dramatically one way or another politically (although, in fairness - I would say I lean more to the right than the left). But the left seems to be incapable of getting on the same page long enough to mount any kind of challenge against the right - and MY, are they capable of complaining! Another milquetoast approach in 2008 by the Democrats is likely to result in more of the same for our government (and thus, more incessant b****ing from the left).

It's time to crap or get off the pot.Problem with the left is lack of backbone , very wishy washy with Kerry running , Problem with the right is they didnt get much right , but instead of owning up , they just confused the situation as best as they could ........I do lean left , I do suport unions , or just about any other labor movment , but i will vote republican if I feel it is the best for the country , now you go back and read some of these peoplespost and tell me they dont toe the party line .......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

LAFFS going to just looooooove this thread. LOL

:oyvey:

You need to get over your obsession with me and get a life, dude.

I'm still diggin' chicks.

[bombay]

Very dissatisfied. I never voted for this either time and things certainly haven't been beneficial for me with them in office, so why should I be happy with them at all?

2 more years of this group and then never again....I almost count the days.

Good post.

[Spider]

But Dom instead of blaming no back bone Democrats for crooked neo cons , why not blame the Republican party ?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Anyway....

Proud of our system of government.

Disgusted with our current elected officials of both parties.

[Den Smith 49]

Our system of government is the best in the world. The problem is it is currently not working. The people of this country do not elect our govt. officials, money elects our govt. officials. That is not what our forefathers had in mind.

The person who can garner the most campaign contributions is rarely the best person for the job. Until they can come up with a way to take the financial disparity between candidates out of the equation we will not have a govt. of the people for the people.

[Spider]

Anyone that thinks this administration is doing a good job , is just toeing the party line .........

[ClevelandBronco]

I've never been particularly "proud" of any of the people we've hired to represent us. (For me, Rudy Giuliani came closer than anyone to inspiring pride, but since I had no hand in his election he doesn't really count.)

I'm satisfied with this batch, on balance, but that wasn't a poll choice. I am proud to be living under our system of government, so, for the purposes of this poll, I voted for the closest option.

[DomCasual]

But Dom instead of blaming no back bone Democrats for crooked neo cons , why not blame the Republican party ?
I guess I vote what I believe to be the lesser of two evils. I don't think "the right" is right. But, for a lot of reasons, they are generally less objectionable to me than what I perceive to be the highly hypocritical left.

That being said, I have never voted straight ticket, one way or another. I am always open-minded to voting for either candidate, and I even voted for Clinton in '96.

But honestly, I have no faith the left is going to get their crap together in time to mount a serious challenge in 2008. I don't think the left even knows what it believes, on a very general level - other than that they don't like the status quo. And not liking the status quo isn't enough.

[Cito Pelon]

It just seemed that you tried to paint things a bit more black and white than what is fair.

It's part of why I can't stomach LABF. It's every bit as predictable as Rush Limbaugh.

I don't lean dramatically one way or another politically (although, in fairness - I would say I lean more to the right than the left). But the left seems to be incapable of getting on the same page long enough to mount any kind of challenge against the right - and MY, are they capable of complaining! Another milquetoast approach in 2008 by the Democrats is likely to result in more of the same for our government (and thus, more incessant b****ing from the left).

It's time to crap or get off the pot.

Easy there, tiger. Let's not get into who is the Queen Bitch. That crown goes to . . . . . EVERYBODY! What do you think you just did?

[Spider]

I guess I vote what I believe to be the lesser of two evils. I don't think "the right" is right. But, for a lot of reasons, they are generally less objectionable to me than what I perceive to be the highly hypocritical left.

That being said, I have never voted straight ticket, one way or another. I am always open-minded to voting for either candidate, and I even voted for Clinton in '96.

But honestly, I have no faith the left is going to get their crap together in time to mount a serious challenge in 2008. I don't think the left even knows what it believes, on a very general level - other than that they don't like the status quo. And not liking the status quo isn't enough.
Hypocracy is rampent on both sides , funny you left that out , .........wishy washy is bad , but torture , outing CIA agents , paying Companies our tax dollars to outsource ,spending money like there is no tomorrow , Iraq is far worse ...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Easy there, tiger. Let's not get into who is the Queen b****. That crown goes to . . . . . EVERYBODY! What do you think you just did?

Rep!

[Cito Pelon]

there are two parts to the "gubment". one is the elected clowns. the second is the professionals. the professionals are divided into two types: the social engineered part, and the really professional-professional type. the first two types suck. the last part holds it all together.

I guess you're talking about the bureaucracy. The career civil servants that hold the entire framework of Federal government together.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So, let me summarize - tell me if I have it right.

Hate Bush = Smart, "good head on shoulders"

Don't Hate Bush = Idiot

Is that it?

You're definitely on the right track.

[Bronco X]

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me. Of course you have to put a presidency in the context of the issues it faced, because judging a presidency is a subjective process. There's no absolute score that can be kept.

The great presidents almost always have had a focal issue they dealt with, and how they handled that issue is what made their presidency memorable. In other words, their presidency is judged contextually. All the great presidents have failed at some things. But it is easier to overlook their failings because they dealt successfully with something of extreme historical significance.

I don't disagree, but no matter how difficult the circumstances surrounding a president’s term, he has to be judged by the ramifications of his decisions. Perhaps it's only fair to give it some time, but I think you can take a look at the decisions this administration has made and make an educated prediction as to where those decisions will lead us. IMO, we've been lead unnecessarily into a quagmire of a war and the United States Constitution, a document which unfortunately most Americans believe has less to do with protecting our freedoms than the stars and stripes on the flag, has been compromised in a way that hasn't happened since it was first created. The circumstances surrounding this presidency in no way absolves this administration for these missteps. Of course, these are just my opinions but that's what this thread is for.

For what it's worth, I would like to point out one thing about the circumstances surrounding this presidency. 9/11 was a difficult event for all of us, and it seems taboo to suggest that anyone could have benefited from it, but make no mistake about it: 9/11 gave this administration more power and influence than any other administration in this country's history. This administration was free to do whatever it wanted to do so long as they framed it around the war on terrorism. For about two years after it happened, questioning any of Bush's decisions was considered by his most ardent supporters downright treasonous. It was common to hear people making the argument that not supporting this president was the same as supporting the enemy, which we all know means terrorists. No doubt due to the popularity of this knee-jerk sentiment (and dare I say one which violates some of the most sacred principles this country was founded on) , the "opposition" party, the Democrats, completely rolled over to the will of the president.

What does that tell us? Basically, while there were difficult circumstances, for a long time this administration ran the country without opposition, a benefit very few administrations have had. Sure, we can point to Congress and the Senate for this. We can point to the media. We can even point to the American people. But only indirectly can this country's current direction lead to these groups. But it does lead directly to this administration. They wanted more power and influence. They got more power and influence. They used more power and influence. They should be judged by how they used it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't disagree, but no matter how difficult the circumstances surrounding a president’s term, he has to be judged by the ramifications of his decisions. Perhaps it's only fair to give it some time, but I think you can take a look at the decisions this administration has made and make an educated prediction as to where those decisions will lead us. IMO, we've been lead unnecessarily into a quagmire of a war and the United States Constitution, a document which unfortunately most Americans believe has less to do with protecting our freedoms than the stars and stripes on the flag, has been compromised in a way that hasn't happened since it was first created. The circumstances surrounding this presidency in no way absolves this administration for these missteps. Of course, these are just my opinions but that's what this thread is for.

For what it's worth, I would like to point out one thing about the circumstances surrounding this presidency. 9/11 was a difficult event for all of us, and it seems taboo to suggest that anyone could have benefited from it, but make no mistake about it: 9/11 gave this administration more power and influence than any other administration in this country's history. This administration was free to do whatever it wanted to do so long as they framed it around the war on terrorism. For about two years after it happened, questioning any of Bush's decisions was considered by his most ardent supporters downright treasonous. It was common to hear people making the argument that not supporting this president was the same as supporting the enemy, which we all know means terrorists. No doubt due to the popularity of this knee-jerk sentiment (and dare I say one which violates some of the most sacred principles this country was founded on) , the "opposition" party, the Democrats, completely rolled over to the will of the president.

What does that tell us? Basically, while there were difficult circumstances, for a long time this administration ran the country without opposition, a benefit very few administrations have had. Sure, we can point to Congress and the Senate for this. We can point to the media. We can even point to the American people. But only indirectly can this country's current direction lead to these groups. But it does lead directly to this administration. They wanted more power and influence. They got more power and influence. They used more power and influence. They should be judged by how they used it.


Bravo!

Somebody gets it.

:thumbsup:

[Tombstone RJ]

Our system of government is the best in the world. The problem is it is currently not working. The people of this country do not elect our govt. officials, money elects our govt. officials. That is not what our forefathers had in mind.

The person who can garner the most campaign contributions is rarely the best person for the job. Until they can come up with a way to take the financial disparity between candidates out of the equation we will not have a govt. of the people for the people.

Exactly. The system is not working the way the Forefathers envisioned. For a Democracy to work, first and foremost, you have to have an educated population. If you don't, you run the risk of electing questionable leaders. When I read the posts on this board, I feel good about the people here, and I can have an educated conversation about politics. But, if I look around alot of America, I see too much apathy, and either uneducated voices screaming at me, or radical left wingers or right wingers telling me how to vote.

For a democracy to thrive, it takes everyone to understand the issues, and make a real effort to address those issues through electing officials who can get the job done. However, in the politics of today, I see less and less leadership, and more and more money being thrown around. GWB was not the best leader the Republicans could have put on their platform. They propped him up because he tows the party line, and has a boat load of money.

And as for the Democrats, well, I don't know how they come up with their party leaders. Kerry has alot of money, and he tows the party line, so I guess that got him on the ballot.

This country needs a viable third party.

[Ratboy]

Yes! Overall, I'm 'proud' of the Government. If you say No, I suggest you move to a different country and tell us how you like it.

[Cito Pelon]

Our system of government is the best in the world. The problem is it is currently not working. The people of this country do not elect our govt. officials, money elects our govt. officials. That is not what our forefathers had in mind.

The person who can garner the most campaign contributions is rarely the best person for the job. Until they can come up with a way to take the financial disparity between candidates out of the equation we will not have a govt. of the people for the people.

There are ways to discern who's in who's pocket. For instance, take a look in your local newspaper to see who voted which way on the "Ethics" bill a couple of weeks ago that came out of the Abramoff felony trials.

Basically, if history means anything, you better take a close look at whoever wants to be Speaker of the House. I believe the past four in a row have come under indictment while they were in office. Rostenkowski, Jim somebody from Texas, Newt Gingrich, now Tom DeLay. That House of Representatives is becoming a racketeering indictment waiting to happen. Of course, it alwasy was that way. That's why we have a balance of powers with a Senate, an Executive, an independent Judiciary.

It works, we should all be proud of our system of Federal government, and of our ancestors for making it work. Carry on.

[scorpio]

This country needs a viable third party.

I told my dad (super left-wing Randy Rhodes-listener type guy) we needed a 3rd party and he started yelling at me.

[scorpio]

Btw I am going to be forming the Neo-Whig party within the next few years. Early adopters get cabinet positions.

[ClevelandBronco]

...the United States Constitution, a document which unfortunately most Americans believe has less to do with protecting our freedoms than the stars and stripes on the flag, has been compromised in a way that hasn't happened since it was first created.

You might want to check with the surviving Japanese American population that was interned during WWII about that. Google up the Sedition Act during the Adams administration and the suspension of the Writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. Nothing in PATRIOT remotely compares with some of our past sins against the Constitution, IMO.

[Spider]

I told my dad (super left-wing Randy Rhodes-listener type guy) we needed a 3rd party and he started yelling at me.
;D go back and tell your Dad that Ralph Nader should run again in 08 ......... :rofl:

[Tombstone RJ]

Yes! Overall, I'm 'proud' of the Government. If you say No, I suggest you move to a different country and tell us how you like it.

That's a cop-out statement.

[Ratboy]

That's a cop-out statement.

Explain.

Sure, you can hate the president and it's party/officials, but how can you say you aren't proud of our government? Many foreigners would love to take your spot in America any day.

[Spider]

Explain.

Sure, you can hate the president and it's party/officials, but how can you say you aren't proud of our government? Many foreigners would love to take your spot in America any day.
what part of , I know you are proud to be an American .. triped you up ?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If you say No, I suggest you move to a different country and tell us how you like it.

:oyvey:

Newsflash for Rat:

Blind patriotism is not an American value.

[Old Dude]

Yes! Overall, I'm 'proud' of the Government. If you say No, I suggest you move to a different country and tell us how you like it.

So if there's a bully in your school yard, your solution is to move to a different school?

No thanks. This is my country these SOBs are disgracing, and they are the ones who can pack their bags.

[WoodMan]

I am proud of our system of Government. I.E. the division of power and peaceful transfer of power.

The politicians however have become a bunch of Corporate Whores. Beholding to the scum who pay for their services (votes). We need lobby reform and term limits in the worse way. WTF is Ted Kennedy or Oren Hatch still doing in power? nothing more than handing out favors to their pimps.

[Ratboy]

So if there's a bully in your school yard, your solution is to move to a different school?

No thanks. This is my country these SOBs are disgracing, and they are the ones who can pack their bags.

No, I'm not saying that. The majority of us have it pretty damn good, and yet we still bitch and complain how much we hate it. All i'm saying is live some where else and see how much you like it's government.

Sure we're not perfect, but we're the best.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . .They wanted more power and influence. They got more power and influence. They used more power and influence. They should be judged by how they used it.

Well stated. Political Science 501.

[Ratboy]

what part of , I know you are proud to be an American .. triped you up ?

Never said any of you weren't proud. Like i said in my previous post, Our government is the best and some of you act like we're a 3rd world country.

[Spider]

Never said any of you weren't proud. Like i said in my previous post, Our government is the best and some of you act like we're a 3rd world country.
your goverment is only as goodas the people running it , Now we do have the best system in place , but right now our goverment is in deep trouble ........

[Tombstone RJ]

Explain.

Sure, you can hate the president and it's party/officials, but how can you say you aren't proud of our government? Many foreigners would love to take your spot in America any day.


I never said I hate anyone on Capital Hill. I don't hate GWB. I don't hate the Democrats, I don't hate the Senate and the House.

But that is totally different that being "proud" of our elected officials.

It's my right as an American citizen. No, its my responsibility as an American citizen to question our "leaders." I've never advocated blind patriotism, nor have I advocated anarchy. I only advocate being educated on the issues. That means listening to all points of view, no matter how radical. It also means being responsible in how one votes on the issues. I'm preaching empowerement through knowledge, not blind homerism.

[ClevelandBronco]

That relocation didn't take long.

And we were all acting so grown up.

Now that they've stuck us back in the basement, I guess we can return to slinging the usual **** at each other.

[12th man]

No, I'm not saying that. The majority of us have it pretty damn good, and yet we still b**** and complain how much we hate it. All i'm saying is live some where else and see how much you like it's government.

Sure we're not perfect, but we're the best.
yup. I mean we do have a sped for a president, but it's still better than anywhere else.

[Bronco X]

You might want to check with the surviving Japanese American population that was interned during WWII about that. Google up the Sedition Act during the Adams administration and the suspension of the Writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. Nothing in PATRIOT remotely compares with some of our past sins against the Constitution, IMO.

Fair point, one which I should have addressed. I’m not so naïve that I believe the Constitution has never been violated before. In fact, I’ll go ahead and withdraw the comment that the Constitution has not been compromised like this before. Just dealing with the Patriot Act alone, if your opinion is that the Patriot Act does not represent a significant compromise of the Constitution regardless of how it compares with past violations, on that issue we disagree.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So if there's a bully in your school yard, your solution is to move to a different school?

No thanks. This is my country these SOBs are disgracing, and they are the ones who can pack their bags.

+1 :thumbsup:

The feeling of unease, of a disconcerting imbalance, is the result of a dawning awareness that there really is no one at the helm of governmental responsibility. Like a marshmallow, our government seems to have substance, shape, and physical form, but there is nothing at the core; the years' worth of illusions that the military-industrial complex and its other corporate in-laws have so assiduously built up are disintegrating. Like a Ponzi scheme, the Hoover/Red Ink/BushCo model has become so top-heavy in it's own web of lies that it's ready to be tipped over.

The non-reaction to Katrina was no coincidence; it's no coincidence that there is no real policy on anything. Bush is a mere carpetbagging sock puppet who is in too deep now and who is only is trying to ride out the bucking bronco that is slow recognition of the hollowness of that corporate mirage.

[orinjkrush]

I guess you're talking about the bureaucracy. The career civil servants that hold the entire framework of Federal government together.

bureaus come from scientific management of frederick taylor. it means experts. bureau-crats is a disparaging term, used by those who prefer to do things quick and dirty. kinda like getting mired down in vietnam and iraq.

beware the elected amateurs. they play easy word demagoguery.

beware the socially engineered "politically correct". they will obfuscate everything. EEO anybody?

but those poor, dirty bast*ards who study their craft and know their bidness, (like most good hard working people), get shafted day in and out by the former two. kinda like the scientists who warn of global warming and get their knees cut out from under them by the politically correct politicians.

if the bureaucrats had more control, we would have a BORDER.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's my right as an American citizen. No, its my responsibility as an American citizen to question our "leaders."

:thumbsup:

Especially when those "leaders" do drastic things, e.g., send our military men and women into harm's way.

We, as civilians, owe it to those men and women to question the policies and to hold our "elected" officials accountable.

[Cito Pelon]

Exactly. The system is not working the way the Forefathers envisioned. For a Democracy to work, first and foremost, you have to have an educated population. . . . . . . .

How the USA continues to function, nobody can quite put a finger on it. We're on a roll, according to history. Paying attention to as many intracacies as one can sure helps. Carry on, citizen, so far, so good.

[Tombstone RJ]

:thumbsup:

Especially when those "leaders" do drastic things, e.g., send our military men and women into harm's way.

We, as civilians, owe it to those men and women to question the policies and to hold our "elected" officials accountable.

War is the last option, not the first. One has to analyze closely the ramifications of going to war. Invetibly, wars boil down to one thing: money. Why are we in Iraq? Is it because Hussien was a bad person, hiding weapons?

OR WAS IT BECAUSE HUSSIEN WAS CONVERTING IRAQ TO THE EURO DOLLAR (THROUGH THE F***ING FRENCH AND GERMANS).

Its all about keeping the US dollar competitive. Now, do I agree with the way GWB went about keeping the Iraq Economy under the US dollar, no. BUT DO I UNDERSTAND WHY GWB AND COMPANY WENT TO WAR... yes. I'm pretty pragmatic like that. However, its a big **** sandwich now, with no guarantees that the new government will last (see my post on what it takes to maintain a Democracy).

Bush did it the wrong way. I could have done a better job than him, but that is JMHO.

The Cold War was not a clash of two great military powers. It wasn't even a clash of two powerful and opposing ideologies (although the politicians want you to believe that). It was a clash of two ECONOMIC PHILOSOPHIES. In the end, the US simply outspent the communists. That's all Reagan did. He outspent the dumbass Russians. He destroyed their economy. Point blank.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

War is the last option, not the first. One has to analyze closely the ramifications of going to war. Invetibly, wars boil down to one thing: money. Why are we in Iraq? Is it because Hussien was a bad person, hiding weapons?

OR WAS IT BECAUSE HUSSIEN WAS CONVERTING IRAQ TO THE EURO DOLLAR (THROUGH THE ****ING FRENCH AND GERMANS).

Its all about keeping the US dollar competitive. Now, do I agree with the way GWB went about keeping the Iraq Economy under the US dollar, no. BUT DO I UNDERSTAND WHY GWB AND COMPANY WENT TO WAR... yes. I'm pretty pragmatic like that. However, its a big **** sandwich now, with no guarantees that the new government will last (see my post on what it takes to maintain a Democracy).

Bush did it the wrong way. I could have done a better job than him, but that is JMHO.

The Cold War was not a clash of two great military powers. It wasn't even a clash of two powerful and opposing ideologies (although the politicians want you to believe that). It was a clash of two ECONOMIC PHILOSOPHIES. In the end, the US simply outspent the communists. That's all Reagan did. He outspent the dumbass Russians. He destroyed their economy. Point blank.

Very well argued, and I quite agree.

It's always nice to see someone who has been paying attention. :thumbsup:

[Tombstone RJ]

How the USA continues to function, nobody can quite put a finger on it. We're on a roll, according to history. Paying attention to as many intracacies as one can sure helps. Carry on, citizen, so far, so good.

The US continues to function because of the bureauocracy (see orinjkrush's brilliant post #104).

Alot of red tape, alot of players, everyone has their hands in the pie. Corporate American keeps alot of it in place. This system is like a big freight train, going 90mph down the track. Its got momentem baby.

[Cito Pelon]

You might want to check with the surviving Japanese American population that was interned during WWII about that. Google up the Sedition Act during the Adams administration and the suspension of the Writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. Nothing in PATRIOT remotely compares with some of our past sins against the Constitution, IMO.

Agreed, could be worse. Nevertheless, citizens have to keep a close watch on usurpation of power. Dictatorship is the worst sin to the American people, some people don't realize that.

[Cito Pelon]

+1 :thumbsup:

The feeling of unease, of a disconcerting imbalance, is the result of a dawning awareness that there really is no one at the helm of governmental responsibility. Like a marshmallow, our government seems to have substance, shape, and physical form, but there is nothing at the core; the years' worth of illusions that the military-industrial complex and its other corporate in-laws have so assiduously built up are disintegrating. Like a Ponzi scheme, the Hoover/Red Ink/BushCo model has become so top-heavy in it's own web of lies that it's ready to be tipped over.

The non-reaction to Katrina was no coincidence; it's no coincidence that there is no real policy on anything. Bush is a mere carpetbagging sock puppet who is in too deep now and who is only is trying to ride out the bucking bronco that is slow recognition of the hollowness of that corporate mirage.

Getting on the pulpit overmuch, tiger. This is the main board, show some respect.

[GonzoLays]

Exactly. The system is not working the way the Forefathers envisioned. For a Democracy to work, first and foremost, you have to have an educated population. If you don't, you run the risk of electing questionable leaders. When I read the posts on this board, I feel good about the people here, and I can have an educated conversation about politics. But, if I look around alot of America, I see too much apathy, and either uneducated voices screaming at me, or radical left wingers or right wingers telling me how to vote.

Exhibit A:

The majority of us have it pretty damn good, and yet we still b**** and complain how much we hate it. All i'm saying is live some where else and see how much you like it's government.

Sure we're not perfect, but we're the best.

:rofl:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Getting on the pulpit overmuch, tiger. This is the main board, show some respect.

Hilarious!

Does Cito know where he is?

(He thinks he's a mod, so it's questionable whether he knows who he is.) ;)

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . . Just dealing with the Patriot Act alone, if your opinion is that the Patriot Act does not represent a significant compromise of the Constitution regardless of how it compares with past violations, on that issue we disagree.

It's significant that Congress took a very hard look at the Patriot Act renewal. What their motivations were is up to debate. Reelection obviously springs to mind fastest.

I'm curious if very close scrutiny of Congressional budgets is not in order at this point. I'm talking about the budget these Federal Legislators give themselves. It is incredibly huge amount of dollars each US Rep and Senator has each year for their staff. Anybody have the exact amount?

[baja]

reading some of these post , I just shake my head ............all I can say is , damn good thing you dont have to be smart to vote , just 18.........Cito pelon has it right on the money , as does a few others AmesJ has a pretty good head on his shoulders ........... But the nerve of Baja , to be sucsessfull , serve in the army , vote in 8 presedental elections , be able to afford to live where he wants without help , Dare to question Bush ...........How dare he .......Just goes to show , Baja knows how to make a living , provide for his family , but he isnt good enough American to question Bush .......

The level of ignorance displayed by Alec is heartbreaking and to think i did my part to help keep America free for fools like him.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The level of ignorance displayed by Alec is heartbreaking and to think i did my part to help keep America free for fools like him.

Yep. :yep:

You gotta wonder how many of those folks who called us "traitors" and "America haters" in '04 are wishing they could take their vote back about now.

[Tombstone RJ]

It's significant that Congress took a very hard look at the Patriot Act renewal. What their motivations were is up to debate. Reelection obviously springs to mind fastest.

I'm curious if very close scrutiny of Congressional budgets is not in order at this point. I'm talking about the budget these Federal Legislators give themselves. It is incredibly huge amount of dollars each US Rep and Senator has each year for their staff. Anybody have the exact amount?

Oh man, good luck finding the answer to that question. You might be able to find what a Rep and a Sen get paid, and you might even be able to dig up how much staff the official has, and how much they get paid. But I'm betting you'll never get close to finding how much money is budgeted to these officials and their staffs. Nor, how much money comes from lobbyist groups.

[Cito Pelon]

Hilarious!

Does Cito know where he is?

(He thinks he's a mod, so it's questionable whether he knows who he is.) ;)

Apparently, I didn't know where I was at. Nevertheless, I think it's important that you understand this is not the LABF vent constantly board.

I distinctly remember you getting hysterical after 9/11. You were ready to nuke anybody. So you need to get off the holier than thou stuff paragraph after paragraph, cartoon after cartoon.

You, LABF, had as much to do with the hysteria after 9/11 as anybody.

[baja]

Our system of government is the best in the world. The problem is it is currently not working. The people of this country do not elect our govt. officials, money elects our govt. officials. That is not what our forefathers had in mind.

The person who can garner the most campaign contributions is rarely the best person for the job. Until they can come up with a way to take the financial disparity between candidates out of the equation we will not have a govt. of the people for the people.

Great point - 100% on the money. (No pun intended)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Apparently, I didn't know where I was at. Nevertheless, I think it's important that you understand this is not the LABF vent constantly board.

I think it's important that you understand that you are not the forum moderator.

I also think it's important that you ixnay on the control issues.

I distinctly remember you getting hysterical after 9/11. You were ready to nuke anybody.

I distinctly remember you trying to convince everyone that we shouldn't go after Bin Laden or take military action after 9/11.


So you need to get off the holier than thou stuff paragraph after paragraph, cartoon after cartoon.

You need to mind your own business, drop the "moderator in my own mind" delusions, or use "ignore."

You, LABF, had as much to do with the hysteria after 9/11 as anybody.

According to you, anyone who wanted to go after Bin Laden or al Qaeda after 9/11 was "hysterical."

You sounded like just another naive college kid.

[Cito Pelon]

Oh man, good luck finding the answer to that question. You might be able to find what a Rep and a Sen get paid, and you might even be able to dig up how much staff the official has, and how much they get paid. But I'm betting you'll never get close to finding how much money is budgeted to these officials and their staffs. Nor, how much money comes from lobbyist groups.

I heard something like $5 million/yr, and that's a hazy memory. A good journalist maybe would dig into that. I know for certain it is an outlandishly huge amount. These Federal Legislators, it's a Holy Grail type of thing for them, maybe that's a bad example. Maybe "Pot of Gold at the End of the Rainbow" is a better example. I'd say 80% of the Federal Legislators went through all the political travails to get that "Pot of Gold." All the baby-kissing, hand-shaking, butt-kissing was in order to get the all-expenses-paid ride. Hell, they even get their shoes shined for free.

[Cito Pelon]

I think it's important that you understand that you are not the forum moderator.

I also think it's important that you ixnay on the control issues.



I distinctly remember you trying to convince everyone that we shouldn't go after Bin Laden or take military action after 9/11.



You need to mind your own business, drop the "moderator in my own mind" delusions, or use "ignore."



According to you, anyone who wanted to go after Bin Laden or al Qaeda after 9/11 was "hysterical."

You sounded like just another naive college kid.


My friend, I'm one of the best friends you've ever had on this board. For years and years, since what, 1997? That's a long time.

[baja]

War is the last option, not the first. One has to analyze closely the ramifications of going to war. Invetibly, wars boil down to one thing: money. Why are we in Iraq? Is it because Hussien was a bad person, hiding weapons?

OR WAS IT BECAUSE HUSSIEN WAS CONVERTING IRAQ TO THE EURO DOLLAR (THROUGH THE ****ING FRENCH AND GERMANS).

Its all about keeping the US dollar competitive. Now, do I agree with the way GWB went about keeping the Iraq Economy under the US dollar, no. BUT DO I UNDERSTAND WHY GWB AND COMPANY WENT TO WAR... yes. I'm pretty pragmatic like that. However, its a big **** sandwich now, with no guarantees that the new government will last (see my post on what it takes to maintain a Democracy).

Bush did it the wrong way. I could have done a better job than him, but that is JMHO.

The Cold War was not a clash of two great military powers. It wasn't even a clash of two powerful and opposing ideologies (although the politicians want you to believe that). It was a clash of two ECONOMIC PHILOSOPHIES. In the end, the US simply outspent the communists. That's all Reagan did. He outspent the dumbass Russians. He destroyed their economy. Point blank.


And there my friends you have it in a nut shell.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

My friend, I'm one of the best friends you've ever had on this board. For years and years, since what, 1997? That's a long time.

I've wanted to believe this, but friends don't come off the wall with this kind of condescension:


Getting on the pulpit overmuch, tiger. This is the main board, show some respect.

This sort of ad hominem/non-rebuttal to a serious post is the sort of thing I expect from my enemies.

[baja]

Apparently, I didn't know where I was at. Nevertheless, I think it's important that you understand this is not the LABF vent constantly board.

I distinctly remember you getting hysterical after 9/11. You were ready to nuke anybody. So you need to get off the holier than thou stuff paragraph after paragraph, cartoon after cartoon.

You, LABF, had as much to do with the hysteria after 9/11 as anybody.

Cito is right LABF you came out with some of the most racist blanket posts of anyone right after 9/11. Right up there with Eye Patch. I was there. You know just because someone calls you on something doesn't mean they are attacking you personally. You don't seem to be able to distinguish the point of view criticism from a blatant personal attack. I love reading you post 90 % of them anyway and i always open and read your links yet let me make one criticism and you unload on me.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Cito is right LABF you came out with some of the most racist blanket posts of anyone right after 9/11. Right up there with Eye Patch. I was there. You know just because calls you on something doesn't mean they are attacking you personally. You don't seem to be able to distinguish the point of view criticism from a blatant personal attack.

There you go jumping into an exchange you know nothing about once again.

Cito's comments were in response to a post of mine on this thread that had nothing to do with 9/11.

As for your observations re: my post-9/11 mindset: Yes, the attacks freaked me out pretty seriously, and I said some things I regretted later (and for which I subsequently apologized.)

[baja]

There you go jumping into an exchange you know nothing about once again.

Cito's comments were in response to a post of mine on this thread that had nothing to do with 9/11.

As for your observations re: my post-9/11 mindset: Yes, the attacks freaked me out pretty seriously, and I said some things I regretted later (and for which I subsequently apologized.)

I read every word of every post on this thread (good thread huh) so I did follow along.

That's a stand up answer on your reaction to 9/11. i wanted blood too and was 100% behind going after bin Laden, still am. As a matter of a fact the only person that doesn'r want to catch bin laden is Bush, he doesn't want to lose the face of his boogy man.

[baja]

Notice the poll is 27.27 % in support of Bush and Congress's lack of action against bush. That's a little lower than the national average

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I read every word of every post on this thread (good thread huh) so I did follow along.

So you're aware, then, that the post Cito sandbagged me on had nothing to do with 9/11?

That's a stand up answer on your reaction to 9/11. i wanted blood too and was 100% behind going after bin Laden, still am. As a matter of a fact the only person that doesn'r want to catch bin laden is Bush, he doesn't want to lose the face of his boogy man.

Yep - I still want to see that punk and all of his followers turned into red mist.

[baja]

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN
+1

The feeling of unease, of a disconcerting imbalance, is the result of a dawning awareness that there really is no one at the helm of governmental responsibility. Like a marshmallow, our government seems to have substance, shape, and physical form, but there is nothing at the core; the years' worth of illusions that the military-industrial complex and its other corporate in-laws have so assiduously built up are disintegrating. Like a Ponzi scheme, the Hoover/Red Ink/BushCo model has become so top-heavy in it's own web of lies that it's ready to be tipped over.

The non-reaction to Katrina was no coincidence; it's no coincidence that there is no real policy on anything. Bush is a mere carpetbagging sock puppet who is in too deep now and who is only is trying to ride out the bucking bronco that is slow recognition of the hollowness of that corporate mirage.

Cito responds, Getting on the pulpit overmuch, tiger. This is the main board, show some respect.

Is this the post in question?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Is this the post in question?

Yep.

Rather than respond to any of the specifics of the post in question, he brings up some sh_t from five years ago.

[Cito Pelon]

War is the last option, not the first. One has to analyze closely the ramifications of going to war. Invetibly, wars boil down to one thing: money. Why are we in Iraq? Is it because Hussien was a bad person, hiding weapons?

OR WAS IT BECAUSE HUSSIEN WAS CONVERTING IRAQ TO THE EURO DOLLAR (THROUGH THE ****ING FRENCH AND GERMANS).

Its all about keeping the US dollar competitive. Now, do I agree with the way GWB went about keeping the Iraq Economy under the US dollar, no. BUT DO I UNDERSTAND WHY GWB AND COMPANY WENT TO WAR... yes. I'm pretty pragmatic like that. However, its a big **** sandwich now, with no guarantees that the new government will last (see my post on what it takes to maintain a Democracy).

Bush did it the wrong way. I could have done a better job than him, but that is JMHO.

The Cold War was not a clash of two great military powers. It wasn't even a clash of two powerful and opposing ideologies (although the politicians want you to believe that). It was a clash of two ECONOMIC PHILOSOPHIES. In the end, the US simply outspent the communists. That's all Reagan did. He outspent the dumbass Russians. He destroyed their economy. Point blank.

That was pretty good. You and I think alike, maybe. Maybe you disagree. I'm probably the hardest-assed poster on this board. I think I am. To prove it, I'll say right now that the US has a destiny to rule the Solar System. Our system has to prevail, or no way that happens. Baja ridicules me over that all the time, but that is the Big Prize. The Chinese recognize that, same as me. I think Bush & Co, and the next President will do the planet a service by holding onto air and naval bases in Iraq, and building on them. The best scenario is the Chinese get in step with us, but they have not. They have been given every opportunity to do so since Nixon was in Office. But they want to compete with us, they have shown no interest in cooperating to achieve global stability. In fact, they have taken steps at every opportunity to cooperate with those we are in an uncooperative mode with.

Too bad for you younger folks. The US destiny is to rule the Solar System, but you have a prime contender in the Chinese. I'll be dead probably by 2040 or so, the battle with the Chinese will go on longer than that it looks like right now. However, I'll do my best to help you along. You gotta shoot for the stars.

[baja]

I was hoping to keep this thread on the main board too. But collectively we got it pulled to oblivion from most eyes. Too bad all of us could not have kept it civil for a little while longer. We heard from many that never come to the R & P land it was good while it lasted.

[baja]

That was pretty good. You and I think alike, maybe. Maybe you disagree. I'm probably the hardest-assed poster on this board. I think I am. To prove it, I'll say right now that the US has a destiny to rule the Solar System. Our system has to prevail, or no way that happens. Baja ridicules me over that all the time, but that is the Big Prize. The Chinese recognize that, same as me. I think Bush & Co, and the next President will do the planet a service by holding onto air and naval bases in Iraq, and building on them. The best scenario is the Chinese get in step with us, but they have not. They have been given every opportunity to do so since Nixon was in Office. But they want to compete with us, they have shown no interest in cooperating to achieve global stability. In fact, they have taken steps at every opportunity to cooperate with those we are in an uncooperative mode with.

Too bad for you younger folks. The US destiny is to rule the Solar System, but you have a prime contender in the Chinese. I'll be dead probably by 2040 or so, the battle with the Chinese will go on longer than that it looks like right now. However, I'll do my best to help you along. You gotta shoot for the stars.

I just spent the afternoon Googling Brazil, God there is much to explore there. I'm going in June for three weeks. That will be my Mars. ;D

[Cito Pelon]

I've wanted to believe this, but friends don't come off the wall with this kind of condescension:



This sort of ad hominem/non-rebuttal to a serious post is the sort of thing I expect from my enemies.

I'm not your enemy. Condescending, ok, but there is no other way to deal with you. You attack anything. It's either tip-toe around the ogre, or attack in kind. I get tired of tip-toeing around you.

[Cito Pelon]

I just spent the afternoon Googling Brazil, God there is much to explore there. I'm going in June for three weeks. That will be my Mars. ;D

So you think Brazil is the ultimate in exploration? You don't think big, I think. Get out of your shell.

[baja]

So you think Brazil is the ultimate in exploration? You don't think big, I think. Get out of your shell.

Who said I thought it was the ultimate exploration?

I'm 57. I'm not politically connected. June is 2 months away.

Maybe i will go to Mars some day but I am going to Brazil in June.

When are you going to Mars Cito?

[baja]

So you think Brazil is the ultimate in exploration? You don't think big, I think.<b> Get out of your shell.</b>

And you are right you are condescending.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm not your enemy. Condescending, ok, but there is no other way to deal with you. You attack anything. It's either tip-toe around the ogre, or attack in kind. I get tired of tip-toeing around you.

Once again, rather than respond to the substance of my post, you simply ladle out more gratuitous condescension, more ad hominems, and more non-sequiturs.

This is the sort of behavior I expect from the bush brain trust.

When you decide to actually rebut the part(s) of my post you believe to be erroneous, let me know.

[Spider]

I'm probably the hardest-assed poster on this board. ........I wouldnt go that far , I am pretty hard assed myself , I have worked in -40 below temps , to well over a 100 degrees , work in and out of the oil patch,gone into some of the worst parts of major citys , been in compton California after 2:00 am , andI am still kicking .......
Too bad for you younger folks. The US destiny is to rule the Solar System, but you have a prime contender in the Chinese. I'll be dead probably by 2040 or so, the battle with the Chinese will go on longer than that it looks like right now. However, I'll do my best to help you along. You gotta shoot for the stars.
Prime contender Chinia ? Chinia will collaspe onto its self as a Super power , communism never works , what Chinia has now they stole from us , right now our biggest competition in the space race is our own incompetence right now , but since space exploration has been opened up to the private sector , it wont take long .........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

...been in compton California after 2:00 am

;)

That settles it: The title is yours.

[baja]

;)

That settles it: The title is yours.

Does being lost in East St Louis @ 2 AM with a U Haul full of antiques warrant honorable mention

[Spider]

;)

That settles it: The title is yours.
cant remember the cross streets , but I have been up and down that highway 91 to those wherehouses on the left side of the highway .......But man east LA off of I 10 and Alemeda was no damn picnic either , Had to unload at bar s Foods in the ally ......... But the worst ....... Hunts Point aka the Cage in the Bronxs new york ........off the Major deagan express way........

[Spider]

Does being lost in East St Louis @ 2 AM with a U Haul full of antiques warrant honorable mention
East St Louie is bad Bro ;D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

cant remember the cross streets , but I have been up and down that highway 91 to those wherehouses on the left side of the highway .......But man east LA off of I 10 and Alemeda was no damn picnic either , Had to unload at bar s Foods in the ally ......... But the worst ....... Hunts Point aka the Cage in the Bronxs new york ........off the Major deagan express way........

One of my best friends used to drive long haul. Nowadays, he drives a ready mix truck. Anyway, when he was first learning to drive a big rig, his first trip was to L.A. (He lives in Oregon.) Talk about sh_tting bricks. I guess he almost drifted into a CHP car on route 10 one day. I felt truly sorry for the guy.

[Spider]

One of my best friends used to drive long haul. Nowadays, he drives a ready mix truck. Anyway, when he was first learning to drive a big rig, his first trip was to L.A. (He lives in Oregon.) Talk about sh_tting bricks. I guess he almost drifted into a CHP car on route 10 one day. I felt truly sorry for the guy.
it is intimidating , hell even with the miles I got ,I still watch my p's and q's in major citys ...........

[baja]

One of my best friends used to drive long haul. Nowadays, he drives a ready mix truck. Anyway, when he was first learning to drive a big rig, his first trip was to L.A. (He lives in Oregon.) Talk about sh_tting bricks. I guess he almost drifted into a CHP car on route 10 one day. I felt truly sorry for the guy.

These guys that drive big rigs up and down the baja have my respect. Bad roads no shoulders major pot holes blue hair retirees driving 40 foot pushers on the same road cows around every corner. These guys have the life expectancy of a second lieutenant in Nam.

[Spider]

These guys that drive big rigs up and down the baja have my respect. Bad roads no shoulders major pot holes blue hair retirees driving 40 foot pushers on the same road cows around every corner. These guys have the life expectancy of a second lieutenant in Nam.
Thanks bro . it is damn hazardous , I have gone down monarch pass sideways , come down loveland pass in a big cloud of smoke (breaks)...........

[Cito Pelon]

Who said I thought it was the ultimate exploration?

I'm 57. I'm not politically connected. June is 2 months away.

Maybe i will go to Mars some day but I am going to Brazil in June.

When are you going to Mars Cito?

What is the "ultimate exploration" to you, Baja? Sorry, but you think Brazil, other people think Mars. I know you from way back, and really Brazil is your conquest I guess. Mars is mine. I may not get there, and really there are few that think it is possible at all. I'm certain a conquest of Mars will happen. It's just a simple extrapolation of human history.

The best scenario is the Chinese help us out, instead of trying their utmost to counter our progess at every point.

[baja]

<b>What is the "ultimate exploration" to you, Baja? </b.Sorry, but you think Brazil, other people think Mars. I know you from way back, and really Brazil is your conquest I guess. Mars is mine. I may not get there, and really there are few that think it is possible at all. I'm certain a conquest of Mars will happen. It's just a simple extrapolation of human history.

The best scenario is the Chinese help us out, instead of trying their utmost to counter our progess at every point.

The universe within, some call it the Soul.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The universe within, some call it the Soul.

Something tells me the "conquest" of that particular domain would bring far more benefit to mankind than a "conquest" of Mars. ;)

[baja]

What is the "ultimate exploration" to you, Baja? Sorry, but you think Brazil, other people think Mars. I know you from way back, and really Brazil is your conquest I guess. Mars is mine. I may not get there, and really there are few that think it is possible at all. I'm certain a conquest of Mars will happen. It's just a simple extrapolation of human history.

The best scenario is the Chinese help us out, instead of trying their utmost to counter our progess at every point.

As long as we embrace propulsion as the energy force to get us there we will fail. Some day soon though we will discover the force that allows a tree to pull nutrients and water from deep within the earth to it's upper most leaves, this is the force (attraction) or implosion that will deliver us to mars and beyond.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So baja, I'm curious about the two lines in your sig "Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists."

Is that Vedanta philosophy?

[baja]

So baja, I'm curious about the two lines in your sig "Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists."

Is that Vedanta philosophy?

It is found in the introduction in "The Course in Miracles"

I find it a very comforting understanding.

[baja]

Here's a link;

http://www.acim.org/about_acim_section/intro_to_acim.html

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It is found in the introduction in "The Course in Miracles"

I find it a very comforting understanding.

Interesting - I wonder if the author(s) of the course were influenced by Vedanta?

Anyway, I better stop before someone nuts up on me for jacking this thread. ;)

[Cito Pelon]

</b>

And you are right you are condescending.

Let's cut to the quick. You don't like conquest in any shape or form, unless you're the conquistador. You draw the line in the sand just like everybody else, and dare somebody to cross it. So welcome to the rest of the human race. So we'll see who comes out on top, same as it's ever been.

[baja]

Let's cut to the quick. You don't like conquest in any shape or form, unless you're the conquistador. You draw the line in the sand just like everybody else, and dare somebody to cross it. So welcome to the rest of the human race. So we'll see who comes out on top, same as it's ever been.

My challenge it to remember duality is the illusion which is the antithesis of a line in the sand.

[baja]

Interesting - I wonder if the author(s) of the course were influenced by Vedanta?

Anyway, I better stop before someone nuts up on me for jacking this thread. ;)

Probably the reverse, "The Course' was channeled by the entity Jesus the Christ and is Truth beyond the false confines of the illusion of time.

Here is an excerpt;

A Course in Miracles also emphasizes that it is but one version of the universal curriculum, of which there are "many thousands." Consequently, even though the language of the Course is that of traditional Christianity, it expresses a non-sectarian, non-denominational spirituality. A Course in Miracles therefore is a universal spiritual teaching, not a religion.

[Cito Pelon]

The universe within, some call it the Soul.

Sorry, human history really doesn't show that is the goal. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" pretty much says it all. There are worlds to be conquered, and they will be conquered. The spiritual element will always be there, it is inseperable from the human spirit. But the appeal of power and wealth is also inseperable, and has to be accounted for as supreme. It's also known as "Progress". Ugly as it may be at times, that's how you conquer.

Baja, your guy Castaneda was all about power. Carlos flat out asked Don Juan many times, "What happens after you amass enough power to get past the Eagle?" Don Juan's answer, "Nobody knows." So you tell me, what do you know that Don Juan or Don Genaro did not know? It's a crap shoot, my friend. Amassing power is fine with me, getting past the Eagle is fine with me, but nobody really knows, eh? There are empirical goals that are within reach, and they are right there to grab with your own hands. The Caesars grabbed them, are you telling me you know they got their hands burnt for all eternity after they grasped what their eyeballs and spirit showed them what was possible?

[Cito Pelon]

My challenge it to remember duality is the illusion which is the antithesis of a line in the sand.

Is that something from Castaneda?

[Cito Pelon]

</b>

And you are right you are condescending.

Let's cut to the quick. You don't like conquest in any shape or form, unless you're the conquistador. You draw the line in the sand just like everybody else, and dare somebody to cross it. So welcome to the rest of the human race. So we'll see who comes out on top, same as it's ever been.

[baja]

Sorry, human history really doesn't show that is the goal. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" pretty much says it all. There are worlds to be conquered, and they will be conquered. The spiritual element will always be there, it is inseperable from the human spirit. But the appeal of power and wealth is also inseperable, and has to be accounted for as supreme. It's also known as "Progress". Ugly as it may be at times, that's how you conquer.

Baja, your guy Castaneda was all about power. Carlos flat out asked Don Juan many times, "What happens after you amass enough power to get past the Eagle?" Don Juan's answer, "Nobody knows." So you tell me, what do you know that Don Juan or Don Genaro did not know? It's a crap shoot, my friend. Amassing power is fine with me, getting past the Eagle is fine with me, but nobody really knows, eh? There are empirical goals that are within reach, and they are right there to grab with your own hands. The Caesars grabbed them, are you telling me you know they got their hands burnt for all eternity after they grasped what their eyeballs and spirit showed them what was possible?

I think the eagle is one's own carefully constructed (with the assistance of parents, teachers and peers and all the perceived others) ego and getting past the eagle is the realization you are not your ego but so much more, more than is able to be understood through "normal comprehension".

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Probably the reverse, "The Course' was channeled by the entity Jesus the Christ and is Truth beyond the false confines of the illusion of time.

Actually, the Vedas were around long before the time of JC.

[baja]

Is that something from Castaneda?

yes that non duality concept was taught by Don Juan.

Echart Tolle in his book "A New Earth" also covers the idea very well

[baja]

Actually, the Vedas were around long before the time of JC.

Yes but the Christ Conscience has been "around" always. Jesus the Essene was one human incarnation of that Love.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yes but the Christ Conscience has been "around" always. Jesus the Essene was one human incarnation of that Love.

But the question was whether the course in miracles was around before the Vedas or vice versa.

[baja]

But the question was whether the course in miracles was around before the Vedas or vice versa.

You are right. The Course in Miracles was channeled in the 1970's I believe. The point i want to make is the Truth has always been the Truth.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You are right. The Course in Miracles was channeled in the 1970's

That's what I was wondering.

When I asked if the course had been influenced by Vedanta, and you said "the reverse is probably true" I thought you were saying that the course pre-dated Vedanta.

[baja]

That's what I was wondering.

When I asked if the course had been influenced by Vedanta, and you said "the reverse is probably true" I thought you were saying that the course pre-dated Vedanta.

Yes, I see. I guess I was trying to make the point (poorly,I concede ) that the information is omnipresent.

This was an earlier quote I posted

<b>A Course in Miracles also emphasizes that it is but one version of the universal curriculum, of which there are "many thousands."</b> Consequently, even though the language of the Course is that of traditional Christianity, it expresses a non-sectarian, non-denominational spirituality. A Course in Miracles therefore is a universal spiritual teaching, not a religion.

[Cito Pelon]

As long as we embrace propulsion as the energy force to get us there we will fail. Some day soon though we will discover the force that allows a tree to pull nutrients and water from deep within the earth to it's upper most leaves, this is the force (attraction) or implosion that will deliver us to mars and beyond.

That's pretty good. That's something you want to shoot for. That's for the grandkids to pursue. Meanwhile, we older folks have to keep the dream alive. Sorry, I don't buy into the "soul" deal. That's way, way, way out in the future. The kids and grandkids have all kinds of physics to figure out before they should be devoting more than a fraction of their time to metaphysics.

[Cito Pelon]

I think the eagle is one's own carefully constructed (with the assistance of parents, teachers and peers and all the perceived others) ego and getting past the eagle is the realization you are not your ego but so much more, more than is able to be understood through "normal comprehension".

Well, we'll find out when we're dead. Myself, Allah love me or whatever, when my heart stops, I hope I have the presence of mind to attack whatever is attacking me. I have a hard time believing the afterlife is gonna be all milk and honey. It's gonna be just as brutal as this life. I'm only this candid once a year, so ask your questions now.

[Cito Pelon]

Yes but the Christ Conscience has been "around" always. Jesus the Essene was one human incarnation of that Love.

You're all over the place spiritually. You're so loving now it scares me.

[Atlas]

I have to disagree. Why change the rules or standards for judgement? Pearl Harbor happened too, yet I don't think Roosevelt should be judged differently than any other president because he just happened to be sitting in the Whitehouse.
.

Well, you should. Unlike Bush, FDR was a great, GREAT President but leading up to the attack on Pearl Harbor his administration did ignore signs and signals that the Japs were going to attack.


Bush has done nothing for this country.
I'm sure if Gore would have been President 911 still would have happened but I'm also equally sure that if Gore would have been President the U.S. would be in a much stronger position today.
We wouldn't be in Iraq and we would have concentrated our efforts on Afghanistan and Al Queada.
We wouldn't be alienated form the rest of the world and the deficient wouldn't as high as it is now where every American citizen owes $30,000.00 to pay it off.

[BroncoBuff]

Before 2002, I was always - ALWAYS - very, very proud to be an American. I thought WE set the example for the world and the to follow and the pinko commies to be jealous of. I thought, believed and trusted that we were the good guys who said "that's against the Geneva Convention!" to the Krauts in all those great war movies I watched as a kid ... "take that, you Nazi bastard!" (he was actually just a British actor, but what did I know?)

The point is: Everything, but EVERYTHING has gone so sideways the last three years, that I'm wondering if maybe it's the Twilight Zone. I am not kidding, the last three years are like a nightmare, and I'm not even talking about 9/11.

It's the unprovoked war against a weak and non-threatening nation, the secret CIA prisons, it's the 'signing statements' and executive branch power-grabbing, it's the moving of soldiers from Afghanistan to Iraq that has essentially given Osama a 'pass', it's our own Vice President red-faced with anger because Congress says no to torture, it's the NSA eavesdropping (undertaken, what? ... because they're too lazy to walk over to the courthouse for a simple warrant?). Katrina, oil mergers, tax cuts, spy-outing, and the granddaddy of them all - the budget deficit, which disappeared under Clinton, is now back and worse than ever strictly because Republicans finally hold both houses and the White House and have gone on a mad spending spree.

And we RE-elected this?!?!

Somebody wake me up ... please!

[BroncoBuff]

But then again .... Bill Clinton did get a blow-job! Don't forget that!

[Blueflame]

Before 2002, I was always - ALWAYS - very, very proud to be an American. I thought WE set the example for the world and the to follow and the pinko commies to be jealous of. I thought, believed and trusted that we were the good guys who said "that's against the Geneva Convention!" to the Krauts in all those great war movies I watched as a kid ... "take that, you Nazi bastard!" (he was actually just a British actor, but what did I know?)

The point is: Everything, but EVERYTHING has gone so sideways the last three years, that I'm wondering if maybe it's the Twilight Zone. I am not kidding, the last three years are like a nightmare, and I'm not even talking about 9/11.

It's the unprovoked war against a weak and non-threatening nation, the secret CIA prisons, it's the 'signing statements' and executive branch power-grabbing, it's the moving of soldiers from Afghanistan to Iraq that has essentially given Osama a 'pass', it's our own Vice President red-faced with anger because Congress says no to torture, it's the NSA eavesdropping (undertaken, what? ... because they're too lazy to walk over to the courthouse for a simple warrant?). Katrina, oil mergers, tax cuts, spy-outing, and the granddaddy of them all - the budget deficit, which disappeared under Clinton, is now back and worse than ever strictly because Republicans finally hold both houses and the White House and have gone on a mad spending spree.

And Diebold RE-elected this?!?!

Somebody wake me up ... please!

Fixed it for you...

[alkemical]

just wondering what parts of the constitution you think aren't being followed


Well i'm nutty enough to believe the IRS is unconstitutional - for starterrs. I don't believe in one branch of gov't ursurping power to override the other branches, etc.

[alkemical]

reading some of these post , I just shake my head ............all I can say is , damn good thing you dont have to be smart to vote , just 18.........Cito pelon has it right on the money , as does a few others AmesJ has a pretty good head on his shoulders ........... But the nerve of Baja , to be sucsessfull , serve in the army , vote in 8 presedental elections , be able to afford to live where he wants without help , Dare to question Bush ...........How dare he .......Just goes to show , Baja knows how to make a living , provide for his family , but he isnt good enough American to question Bush .......


So, let me summarize - tell me if I have it right.

Hate Bush = Smart, "good head on shoulders"

Don't Hate Bush = Idiot

Is that it?


First off, if you think i hate bush DomCasual, then you obviously don't really either A) Understand what i write or post, or B) have bought so generously into the 'us v. them' rhetoric that your comprehension was misplaced.

Everyone here knows that i just am not fond of the gov't period, no matter who is in office.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Before 2002, I was always - ALWAYS - very, very proud to be an American. I thought WE set the example for the world and the to follow and the pinko commies to be jealous of. I thought, believed and trusted that we were the good guys who said "that's against the Geneva Convention!" to the Krauts in all those great war movies I watched as a kid ... "take that, you Nazi bastard!" (he was actually just a British actor, but what did I know?)

The point is: Everything, but EVERYTHING has gone so sideways the last three years, that I'm wondering if maybe it's the Twilight Zone. I am not kidding, the last three years are like a nightmare, and I'm not even talking about 9/11.

It's the unprovoked war against a weak and non-threatening nation, the secret CIA prisons, it's the 'signing statements' and executive branch power-grabbing, it's the moving of soldiers from Afghanistan to Iraq that has essentially given Osama a 'pass', it's our own Vice President red-faced with anger because Congress says no to torture, it's the NSA eavesdropping (undertaken, what? ... because they're too lazy to walk over to the courthouse for a simple warrant?). Katrina, oil mergers, tax cuts, spy-outing, and the granddaddy of them all - the budget deficit, which disappeared under Clinton, is now back and worse than ever strictly because Republicans finally hold both houses and the White House and have gone on a mad spending spree.

And we RE-elected this?!?!

Somebody wake me up ... please!

+1 :thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Fixed it for you...

:yep: :thumbsup:

[baja]

<b>View Poll Results: Are you proud of your president and legislative branch of the federal government?</b>

<b>1.Yes I am proud of my president and my legislative branch;</b>


24champbailey, ak1971, Alkazar, ClevelandBronco, ColoradoDarin, Crushaholic, DBruleU, DomCasual, DownRiver Bronco Fan, Edskins_RVA, FlaBroncosFan, GSRelyea, hades, Kaylore, kcnodefense, ludo21, Mk69, MOCRUSH, mrfabulous, Ratboy, RhymesayersDU, sirhcyennek81, smalltowngrll, SteveTensi13, TheChamp247, watermock


<b>26 27.66%</b>

<b>2. No, I am dissatisfied with my leaders. </b>


amesj523, ant1999e, Arkie, Breck Bronc, bronco militia, Bronx33, Crowpointer, cutthemdown, Free Tatum Bell, fuzzy, Garcia Bronco, Hogan11, Hotrod, Kid A, mosca, orinjkrush, pedro, Sodak, SouthStndJunkie, Tombstone RJ, Tredici, WABronco, ZachKC


<b>24 25.53%


3. I am embarrassed by the actions of my president and non reaction of both houses;</b>


Antilles, Atlas, baja fan, BarefootKicker, bendog, Blueflame, bombay, Bronco X, BroncoBuff1, BroncoMatt, Bronkota, cabronco, Cito Pelon, Clockwork Orange, DenverBrit, Dos Rios, enjolras, EWangsness, Floyd44, freak15, halfcreek, HEAV, Jackson's *Mom*, JCMElway, L.A. BRONCOS FAN, labronx, Merlin, minibronco, Old Dude, Orange_Beard, Pendejo, Que, Ray_Lewis'_Victim, Rohirrim, ro_50, scorpio, ScottMtg, scttgrd, TailgateNut, The Big E, whorton99, §Pide®


<b>44 46.81%


Voters: 94.</b>

[Kaylore]

You could've just linked the poll. No need to start a new thread.

[baja]

You could've just linked the poll. No need to start a new thread.

Most of the votes were made on the main board. I thoiught those posters that never venture over here might like to see the results but i guess that is toomuch to expect after all we need to keep those importent foot ball threads on page one like this one;

http://72.22.74.110/BB/showthread.php?t=40298

[ClevelandBronco]

Most of the votes were made on the main board. I thoiught those posters that never venture over here might like to see the results but i guess that is toomuch to expect after all we need to keep those importent foot ball threads on page one like this one;

http://72.22.74.110/BB/showthread.php?t=40298

Taco jumps us back here whenever we start it up. IMHO, he pulls the trigger much too quickly. This was a fairly civil discussion that could have been even better had it it left on the main page.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<b>View Poll Results: Are you proud of your president and legislative branch of the federal government?</b>

<b>1.Yes I am proud of my president and my legislative branch;</b>


24champbailey, ak1971, Alkazar, ClevelandBronco, ColoradoDarin, Crushaholic, DBruleU, DomCasual, DownRiver Bronco Fan, Edskins_RVA, FlaBroncosFan, GSRelyea, hades, Kaylore, kcnodefense, ludo21, Mk69, MOCRUSH, mrfabulous, Ratboy, RhymesayersDU, sirhcyennek81, smalltowngrll, SteveTensi13, TheChamp247, watermock


<b>26 27.66%</b>

<b>2. No, I am dissatisfied with my leaders. </b>


amesj523, ant1999e, Arkie, Breck Bronc, bronco militia, Bronx33, Crowpointer, cutthemdown, Free Tatum Bell, fuzzy, Garcia Bronco, Hogan11, Hotrod, Kid A, mosca, orinjkrush, pedro, Sodak, SouthStndJunkie, Tombstone RJ, Tredici, WABronco, ZachKC


<b>24 25.53%


3. I am embarrassed by the actions of my president and non reaction of both houses;</b>


Antilles, Atlas, baja fan, BarefootKicker, bendog, Blueflame, bombay, Bronco X, BroncoBuff1, BroncoMatt, Bronkota, cabronco, Cito Pelon, Clockwork Orange, DenverBrit, Dos Rios, enjolras, EWangsness, Floyd44, freak15, halfcreek, HEAV, Jackson's *Mom*, JCMElway, L.A. BRONCOS FAN, labronx, Merlin, minibronco, Old Dude, Orange_Beard, Pendejo, Que, Ray_Lewis'_Victim, Rohirrim, ro_50, scorpio, ScottMtg, scttgrd, TailgateNut, The Big E, whorton99, §Pide®


<b>44 46.81%


Voters: 94.</b>

Very interesting.

When you consider what a neocon/pro-dubya stronghold the OM is, you have to be amazed by these poll results.

[BroncoBuff]

Taco jumps us back here whenever we start it up. IMHO, he pulls the trigger much too quickly. This was a fairly civil discussion that could have been even better had it it left on the main page.
He could have at least VOTED before he moved the thing...

Actually, I'm glad this thing started on the Main Board... I couldn't figure out how you got so many votes. Most polls in this room get 10-15 votes tops.

[baja]

Taco jumps us back here whenever we start it up. IMHO, he pulls the trigger much too quickly. This was a fairly civil discussion that could have been even better had it it left on the main page.

Yes I was very disappointed too. It had great promise on the main board. Threads about Mock's cat last longer that this did. This thread was getting very strong play with some great takes by posters that are obviously very concerned with the state of affairs in this country.

Heck this thread never left the top ten all the time it was on the main board.

i am so disappointed I have begun looking around for a political discussion board that has a broader member base participating in the discussions.

[alkemical]

if you find one baja - let me know