French Riot over guanteed jobs.

[watermock]

They have 6-8 week vacations. guaranteed jobs 35 per week jobs. They basically can't be fired, and they wonder why the economy is falling apart.

Other newspapers have been careful to avoid labeling the rioters as anything other than "youths." An article in yesterday's New York Times about the riots never once mentioned the words "Muslim" or "Islam." In stark contrast, the Arab media is all over the story. The Middle East Media Research Institute translated one Saudi columnist who seems to have a better understanding of the conflagration than his Western counterparts. "The fires in Paris also set fire to all [the problems] that had accumulated with regard to Arab immigration... Whoever blames only the French government for the grave situation in these Parisian suburbs is mistaken," he wrote.
Maybe the Arab media is interested in the story because it acknowledges that a majority of rioting "youths" are of Arab or Muslim descent. With 6 million Muslims, France has Europe's largest Muslim community, many of them crowded in the suburban ghettoes. Synagogues and churches have been attacked to the cries of "Allahu akbar" -- God is great. The German daily Der Spiegel has reported how rioters are using text messaging and the Internet to organize the nightly attacks. One message read: "We aren't going to let up. The French won't do anything and soon we will be the majority here."
Although The Post might imagine Islamic leaders "play no role" in the riots, the leaders themselves seem to think differently. While some have told reporters that what they want is civic autonomy for their communities, others have taken to the streets to tell the rioters to go home "in the name of Allah."
If this isn't the Battle of Tours, it is a sign of things to come. The veneer of French secularism has given way to reveal an unstable balance of Western complacency and Muslim contempt. And in the face of French weakness, that contempt has turned to confidence. This bodes ominously for not only the French, but all of us committed to resisting Islamist aggression.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20051109-100631-2599r.htm

[JAPS]

Mock, the article you have put references to a Nov-'05 editorial. your conclusion makes that you are thinking that muslim youth is rioting over the new job structure. Now, I have a problem with muslim idology myself, but let's stick to the current scenario, this is all french youth in this case.

But french youth show that they are stupid in this case. Guaranteed 35 hour workweek jobs with benefits? Wow.... As an IT consultant, whose future is always uncertain, I would kill to get a sucker job like that. Now that I think about it, know why unemployment rates are so high in europe. Employers are scared to hire in the first place

[Nordcore]

I am sorry but I have to react about this( sorry for my poor english ). I'm french ( and a Broncos fan) and if our youths are in the street is not about 35 per week or something like that.

They refuse a part of a law who is called CPE ( contrat première embauche ). This say that an employer can hire a youth ( 26 years old max) and keep him in an try period during two years. During this period he can fire him when he wants without even a justification.
In this case the youth hasn't any rights to defend himself.
The youths ask to negociate about this but our prime minister scorn them.

concerning the riot of november , I think that your journalist is bad informed...It's probable that some extremists muslims tried to use this to help their cause. But in fact it's the situation of peoples in suburb that caused this. and it started cause two young boys were killed by police by mistake.

I live in the two main town in france (Paris and Lyon) and I never saw that "muslim mafia" that this journalist describe... We have a lot of arabian immigration that's right but 99% want to live in peace with us.

Last point , no we haven't 6 to 8 weeks of vacation but 5 weeks. Except when you are teacher like me , in this case it's more than that :)

Oh and another thing cause I won't dare to post again on this forum, don't listen anybody a lot of french respect and like a lot of things in USA. Some media say that france is " anti american" . It's false , sometimes we don't understand you that's right but that's all.



Sorry for my bad english.

And go Broncos :)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I am sorry but I have to react about this( sorry for my poor english ). I'm french ( and a Broncos fan) and if our youths are in the street is not about 35 per week or something like that.

They refuse a part of a law who is called CPE ( contrat première embauche ). This say that an employer can hire a youth ( 26 years old max) and keep him in an try period during two years. During this period he can fire him when he wants without even a justification.
In this case the youth hasn't any rights to defend himself.
The youths ask to negociate about this but our prime minister scorn them.

concerning the riot of november , I think that your journalist is bad informed...It's probable that some extremists muslims tried to use this to help their cause. But in fact it's the situation of peoples in suburb that caused this. and it started cause two young boys were killed by police by mistake.

I live in the two main town in france (Paris and Lyon) and I never saw that "muslim mafia" that this journalist describe... We have a lot of arabian immigration that's right but 99% want to live in peace with us.

Last point , no we haven't 6 to 8 weeks of vacation but 5 weeks. Except when you are teacher like me , in this case it's more than that :)

Oh and another thing cause I won't dare to post again on this forum, don't listen anybody a lot of french respect and like a lot of things in USA. Some media say that france is " anti american" . It's false , sometimes we don't understand you that's right but that's all.

Sorry for my bad english.

And go Broncos :)

Welcome to the Mane Nordcore! Any law that gives corporations the right to terminate one group of people over another is absolutely wrong!

Watch out for the water cannons!

[Spider]

French Riot Hilarious! .......I bet barney show tapings are more dangerous and out of control

[Mile High Shack]

Welcome to the Mane Nordcore! Any law that gives corporations the right to terminate one group of people over another is absolutely wrong!

Watch out for the water cannons!

whatever dude

95% of American employment is employment at will, not by contract

[Bronco_Beerslug]

whatever dude

95% of American employment is employment at will, not by contract
What is employment "at will"?

[Mile High Shack]

What is employment "at will"?

meaning the employer can fire you at any time they wish

[Mile High Shack]

http://www.rbs2.com/atwill.htm

[Bronco_Beerslug]

meaning the employer can fire you at any time they wish

The law passed there targets one age group not everyone.
And Employers here can't fire you for any reason or anytime they want.

[Spider]

I am sorry but I have to react about this( sorry for my poor english ). I'm french ( and a Broncos fan) and if our youths are in the street is not about 35 per week or something like that.

They refuse a part of a law who is called CPE ( contrat première embauche ). This say that an employer can hire a youth ( 26 years old max) and keep him in an try period during two years. During this period he can fire him when he wants without even a justification.
In this case the youth hasn't any rights to defend himself.
The youths ask to negociate about this but our prime minister scorn them.

concerning the riot of november , I think that your journalist is bad informed...It's probable that some extremists muslims tried to use this to help their cause. But in fact it's the situation of peoples in suburb that caused this. and it started cause two young boys were killed by police by mistake.

I live in the two main town in france (Paris and Lyon) and I never saw that "muslim mafia" that this journalist describe... We have a lot of arabian immigration that's right but 99% want to live in peace with us.

Last point , no we haven't 6 to 8 weeks of vacation but 5 weeks. Except when you are teacher like me , in this case it's more than that :)

Oh and another thing cause I won't dare to post again on this forum, don't listen anybody a lot of french respect and like a lot of things in USA. Some media say that france is " anti american" . It's false , sometimes we don't understand you that's right but that's all.



Sorry for my bad english.

And go Broncos :)

Hell you spell and use better grammar then I do ..........

[TailgateNut]

meaning the employer can fire you at any time they wish

Which planet do you call home? I assume/ hope you're not an Employer!

[Nordcore]

oops sorry Tailgate , i thought that you answered to my post... my bad really sorry.
I'm so bad in english it's a shame.

so the rest of the post is meaningless


I didn't say anything about my opinion on it. I just present the facts. So i don't understand your answer...
but anyways in france an employer has to give the motivation of the dismissal ( not sure of the word). And the youths want to negociate about this that's all. It doesn't mean that you can't fire someone you just have to say why.

This law give a lot of advantages to the employer without any rights to the worker. That's why it's so sensible.

[TailgateNut]

oops sorry Tailgate , i thought that you answered to my post... my bad really sorry.
I'm so bad in english it's a shame.

so the rest of the post is meaningless



I didn't say anything about my opinion on it. I just present the facts. So i don't understand your answer...
but anyways in france an employer has to give the motivation of the dismissal ( not sure of the word). And the youths want to negociate about this that's all. It doesn't mean that you can't fire someone you just have to say why.

This law give a lot of advantages to the employer without any rights to the worker. That's why it's so sensible.


Nothing wrong with having to justify the reason for the dismissal. Unless you're Mile High Shack, who feels it's ok to fire without justification. do have a serious problem with the amount of vacation mandated for new employees. Kind of ridiculous!

I haven't had to fire to many over the years, but the one's I did fire were not dismissed without proper documentation of reasons/ failures!

[Bronx33]

I just watched the clip on FOX, lol MAN! them kids were getting hammered with that water cannon.

[Rohirrim]

Contre la Precarite.

[Nordcore]

do you speak french rohirrim?

[Mile High Shack]

Which planet do you call home? I assume/ hope you're not an Employer!

obviously there has to be a cause

but look up the definition of at will employment

no one is entitled to a job

you have to do your job in order to maintain employment

no one should be guaranteed not to get fired

[Rohirrim]

do you speak french rohirrim?

Si vous parlez tres lentment. C'est realite? Ma Francais est horrible. ;D

[enjolras]

For the vast majority of the United States it is perfectly legal to fire anyone completely without cause (as long as the firing is not discriminatory).

I (I'm at the executive level) could literally walk up to any of my reports right now and tell them to walk with no repercussions for my company (except unemployment benefits).

The ethics of at-will employment are another issue, but it does guarantee a certain efficiency in our economy. In Europe (in most countries) it is VERY difficult to fire someone. There are requirements of cause, which can be quite tricky to prove. We've had trouble in our London office getting rid of underperforming people for this very reason. This means we are bearing the cost of employees who are not providing value in return. This is a serious problem for anyone doing business in that part of the world.

[Mile High Shack]

For the vast majority of the United States it is perfectly legal to fire anyone completely without cause (as long as the firing is not discriminatory).

I (I'm at the executive level) could literally walk up to any of my reports right now and tell them to walk with no repercussions for my company (except unemployment benefits).

The ethics of at-will employment are another issue, but it does guarantee a certain efficiency in our economy. In Europe (in most countries) it is VERY difficult to fire someone. There are requirements of cause, which can be quite tricky to prove. We've had trouble in our London office getting rid of underperforming people for this very reason. This means we are bearing the cost of employees who are not providing value in return. This is a serious problem for anyone doing business in that part of the world.

this is what I was trying to say, but wasn't eloquent enough

[Bronco_Beerslug]

obviously there has to be a cause

but look up the definition of at will employment

no one is entitled to a job

you have to do your job in order to maintain employment

no one should be guaranteed not to get fired

No one should be singled out because of age. How could anyone think this is a good idea?

[TailgateNut]

For the vast majority of the United States it is perfectly legal to fire anyone completely without cause (as long as the firing is not discriminatory).

I (I'm at the executive level) could literally walk up to any of my reports right now and tell them to walk with no repercussions for my company (except unemployment benefits).

The ethics of at-will employment are another issue, but it does guarantee a certain efficiency in our economy. In Europe (in most countries) it is VERY difficult to fire someone. There are requirements of cause, which can be quite tricky to prove. We've had trouble in our London office getting rid of underperforming people for this very reason. This means we are bearing the cost of employees who are not providing value in return. This is a serious problem for anyone doing business in that part of the world.

There's is a BIG difference between firing and Lay-offs/ dismissal with due cause. As you stated "The ethics of at-will employment are another issue".
No shiat Sherlock, what type of employer are you?

[Mile High Shack]

There's is a BIG difference between firing and Lay-offs/ dismissal with due cause. As you stated "The ethics of at-will employment are another issue".
No shiat Sherlock, what type of employer are you?

at will means as long as you aren't discriminating (or can prove discrimination) you can fire anyone

them's the breaks

you could get fired today as long as there was no discrimination

[TailgateNut]

at will means as long as you aren't discriminating (or can prove discrimination) you can fire anyone

them's the breaks

you could get fired today as long as there was no discrimination

Read my post! I asked what type of employer would fire at will. Ethical or un-ethical? I wouldn't fire at will. I assume it's a limited to the real corporate a$$holes who would resort to that type of management, or is that mis-management.

[Mile High Shack]

Read my post! I asked what type of employer would fire at will. Ethical or un-ethical? I wouldn't fire at will. I assume it's a limited to the real corporate a$$holes who would resort to that type of management, or is that mis-management.

obviously if you are doing your job you aren't going to get fired unless they want to save a buck

but now, you are guaranteed in France to NOT get fired no matter how bad of a job you do, from what I understand

[Bronco_Beerslug]

obviously if you are doing your job you aren't going to get fired unless they want to save a buck

but now, you are guaranteed in France to NOT get fired no matter how bad of a job you do, from what I understand

No, now you're guaranteed to be fired for any reason if an employer decides to if you're a certain age in France.

[cutthemdown]

Well we can't understand French politics because they are so much more socialist then we are. It's a different system that creates different problems. No system is perfect and all large countries have problems with the poor and with immigrants if you have them. Americans don't get as much vacation as europeans do but I think it's all just the difference between the two systems. Then agian I bet americans would love 5 weeks paid vacation. Most are lucky to get 2, even 1. Another thing the French military had a tough time in WW2. Americans like to say we bailed them out. Too bad it took us years to join that war because we didn't want to. I guess at that time French probably were thinking why won't americans come and fight? Germany a threat to whole world? Are the pussies? The answer is that war sucks and countries don't usually want to fight them until they absolutley have to. The French culture has added alot to the world. Like them or hate them that is true. I've never had to fight a fenchman so I wouldn't know if they are tough or not, but I knew a french girl that was the absolute bomb. If america was smart we would work to strengthen ties with the French and all of Europe.

[alkemical]

We often forget the french funded the american revolution

[Rohirrim]

We often forget the french funded the american revolution

It was the French fleet blocking Cornwallis' retreat (or resupply) at Yorktown that finished off the Brits. Not to mention the loans they kept floating us to keep Washington's army going.

[Mile High Shack]

didn't hurt that the French hated the English (vice versa) so anyway they could hit English interests was always a plus for them

[alkemical]

yeah so the french aren't/weren't so bad.

they've changed alot, but so have we.

[Mile High Shack]

yeah so the french aren't/weren't so bad.

they've changed alot, but so have we.

well
I wouldn't say that

shortly after our revolution

they had one of the bloodiest revolutions in history

off with their head took on a whole new meaning in France

[alkemical]

well
I wouldn't say that

shortly after our revolution

they had one of the bloodiest revolutions in history

off with their head took on a whole new meaning in France


Would you classify our civil war as a revolution?

[Mile High Shack]

Would you classify our civil war as a revolution?

hmmmm
not really b/c it didn't up in an overthrow of the exisiting government

the south didn't even want to overthrow it, just have a government of their own

[cutthemdown]

We need to just travel more. Everywhere I have been I have enjoyed meeting interesting people from other cultures. Afterwards you have a better understanding of what it is to not be American. In some places you see things you like better, but often people feel I AM LUCKY TO BE AMERICAN. We have resources other countries only dream of. Id say to everyone that thinks they hate the French to ask themselves if they sit around and watch NASCAR on weekends or travel the world? I mean if you haven't even been there then how could you say? Besides my grandfather hit the beaches at Normandy and he said the French thanked him plenty. I mean I did nothing in ww2, i wasn't born in ww2 so the fact that they helped us once in Revolutionary war makes us even.

[Rohirrim]

The French are wonderful people. My grandmother was from Paris. That makes me one quarter French. See? Wonderful! ;D

[alkemical]

hmmmm
not really b/c it didn't up in an overthrow of the exisiting government

the south didn't even want to overthrow it, just have a government of their own


I think i view revolution in different terms than just overthrowing a gov't.

What seperates a revolution from a civil war other than which side looses?

[alkemical]

We need to just travel more. Everywhere I have been I have enjoyed meeting interesting people from other cultures. Afterwards you have a better understanding of what it is to not be American. In some places you see things you like better, but often people feel I AM LUCKY TO BE AMERICAN. We have resources other countries only dream of. Id say to everyone that thinks they hate the French to ask themselves if they sit around and watch NASCAR on weekends or travel the world? I mean if you haven't even been there then how could you say? Besides my grandfather hit the beaches at Normandy and he said the French thanked him plenty. I mean I did nothing in ww2, i wasn't born in ww2 so the fact that they helped us once in Revolutionary war makes us even.


we got a statue too

[Mile High Shack]

I think i view revolution in different terms than just overthrowing a gov't.

What seperates a revolution from a civil war other than which side looses?

b/c a new government steps into place of the old government

russian revolution/american revolution/french revolution/ etc etc

[alkemical]

b/c a new government steps into place of the old government

russian revolution/american revolution/french revolution/ etc etc

So for the south, they lost the revolution (their gov't would have taken place of the yanks gov't) -

[Mile High Shack]

So for the south, they lost the revolution (their gov't would have taken place of the yanks gov't) -

they lost the war to "gain their independence" I suppose you could say

[alkemical]

they lost the war to "gain their independence" I suppose you could say


that was my point, is a conflict called a war or revolution just depending on who won? Sort of like who wins writes the history books....

[broncocalijohn]

France is a socialist country and it shows with their economy. The PM is trying to fix this with the law. We americans cant figure them out why they are rioting. When you get freebies and live like the french do, theyget acustommed to these things. It is tough love for these youth and overall it will improve their country. Why is our GNP so much higher than these socialist countries? The politics of socialism. Take take take from the ones who are giving and give give give to the lazy or such. Rewards is not a concept in many of these countries. 5 weeks of vacation? Keep sitting on your a$$es while we Americans work our A$$es off making a better life for ourselves and the global economy. That is until we send it to India lol!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

France is a socialist country and it shows with their economy. The PM is trying to fix this with the law. We americans cant figure them out why they are rioting. !
Real easy to figure it out. The government just passed a law the discriminates against one age group.

[Mile High Shack]

Real easy to figure it out. The government just passed a law the discriminates against one age group.

only b/c there is a law in place now that says you can't fire anyone under the age of 26 or something

[Nordcore]

wow I see a lot of interesting things here :)

i 'm pretty proud to participate of a discussion on france and french with american peoples with my english level. nevermind I'll try.

yes I think that we are a "socialist country" , we have a very good "social protection" who costs us a lot but I think it's a very good thing. In france i think that nobody want to reduce the 5 weeks of holidays. We are maybe wrong but...

In fact right now it's a part of a law who cause troubles. the new law say that an employer can fire someone without even a justification during is try period of two years if the worker is under 26. We ask to things, first the try period is too long I think. and we ask that the employer must motivate his decision.
But in fact i think the real motivation of the troubles are the atitude of government, they try to pass this law without negociation. We have presidential election in 2007 , so the government begin to panic I think :)

Second point, yes we are eternally thankful to all the americans who came in normandy and save us. I think that we have a long history of war and we are fed up with these. We have lost wars , we have won some...that's enough i think in french opinion. We aren't proud of our atitude in algeria and we aren't proud of our atitude in Napolean era even if he controled a large part of europe.

The english are our best enemies, we fought a lot of time but now thankefully we just fight in rugby field ( and we largely won this year ;)

the american media try to propagate the idea of anti americanism in france, it's false. Of course there are some morons who never get out of france and criticize all foreigners. But the majority is full of respect for usa even if sometimes they are in disagree on some points.
ANd our media make the same of course, a CNN journalist talked about Tien anmen about the french manifestations last tuesday... does she already go in china or in france????

I think here we are hurt byt the anti french movement in USA before the iraki war. We didn't undersand this, is it forbidden to be in disagree with you? If it's the case , we are your enemies? yes we thought that this war was a mistake anyways for the matters that Bush presented, I don't know if we were right or wrong but allies have to listen each others I think.

BUT I love USA, I love Broncos and I'm french...so... :)

[Nordcore]

only b/c there is a law in place now that says you can't fire anyone under the age of 26 or something


no th ey want to make a law who permit to employers to fire anyone under 26 without justification during a try period of 2 years after the signing of the contract.

[Mile High Shack]

no th ey want to make a law who permit to employers to fire anyone under 26 without justification during a try period of 2 years after the signing of the contract.

so basically they can't fire them now, right?

[Spider]

I dont hate the french , But Freedom Vanillia , Freedom salad dressing , Freedom toast , Freedom fries , Freedom kissing , Freedom ticklers , freedom inhaling , belong to us ....... proud moment , when Congress changed these names ........ok it was embarrassing , but hey we had fun

[spdirty]

I heard on Beck yesterday that there are 4 ways to get bad workers out of your company in France.

1. A buyout. The company must pay the worker their full salary for every year you worked for that company. Example. You are 45 years old and you worked for a company for 20 years. You would get paid your full salary till you were 65.

2. You find proof that the worker is stealing from the company, then it would have to go to court.

3. Put them in the closet and hope they go away. If a worker is so bad you do not want them working for you any more, you can have them sit somewhere and do nothing and hope they just leave the company. Oh yeah. This means they get paid to do nothing.

4. I forgot.

[Nordcore]

now they can fire them but they have to justify why they fire the worker.

considering the post of spdirty , the journalist is bad informed. there are several ways to fire a bad worker. But you can't fire without a valuable reason. you can fire him without proper reason but he can attack you in justice or you have to negociate a compensation.
Particularly the first reason is false. In this case can fire workers. He just has to try to find another job but if he can't it's ok.

(sorry for my english, I'm not very clear sometimes .)

[TomServo]

Real easy to figure it out. The government just passed a law the discriminates against one age group

no. if your a productive competent worker, only a dumbass would fire you just to go to the expense of hiring and training another worker who might be a lazy dumbass. how many of us americans have been fired by some dumbass boss only to get a better paying job? im one of them.

[broncocalijohn]

now they can fire them but they have to justify why they fire the worker.

considering the post of spdirty , the journalist is bad informed. there are several ways to fire a bad worker. But you can't fire without a valuable reason. you can fire him without proper reason but he can attack you in justice or you have to negociate a compensation.
Particularly the first reason is false. In this case can fire workers. He just has to try to find another job but if he can't it's ok.

(sorry for my english, I'm not very clear sometimes .)

Nordore, even though this isnt the post you wrote before, we have a problem with the socialist country that became france. In america, we have a stron work ethic and frown on lazyness. Even Democrats here agree with that as if they are more conservative fiscally (but socially liberal). If they cut off vacation from5 weeks to 4 weeks, france would riot and we would look at it asking what the hell are they complaining about? We get 2 weeks max and some a lot less. France was a very strong country but it is now ooked onas weak by USA for quitting WW1 WW2 Vietnam, panama canal not supporting Iraq war (while france was gettin huge contracts from Saddam) and dont forget when we lost over 200 mena nd women in Lebanan and we couldnt fly our planes over France immediately. Terrorist attack and we dont get the French government support. We just have 2 different ways of living. Some can be from the media on both sides. We can be arrogant or rogue feeling nation. We like England but many countries are not like ours and we wish they were. Maybe we dont like the countrty and have no problem with the french people. Sometimes, we hear otherwise.